Woman's Hour - Camilla the Duchess of Cornwall, Diana Parkes, David Trickey, Baroness Floella Benjamin

Episode Date: February 24, 2022

Camilla the Duchess of Cornwall is now at the heart of the royal family. In her ascension day message which begins a year of celebrations to mark seventy years on the throne, the Queen said that once Prince Charles becomes King, her sincere wish is that Camilla will be at his side as Queen Consort.It's recognition for her loyalty, and her work campaigning on a variety of causes and in particular that of domestic abuse. It was a meeting in 2016 with a woman called Diana Parkes that inspired the Duchess.Diana's daughter Joanna Simpson was battered to death by her estranged husband in 2010 with their two children within earshot. After the killing, Diana setup a foundation to help transform the lives of children impacted by domestic violence and it was at a meeting of the charity SafeLives that she first met the Duchess. In our interview we reunite them at Clarence House to hear how her story has inspired the work of a future Queen.Emma also speaks to the clinical psychologist David Trickey from the child mental health charity the Anna Freud Centre and to Baroness Floella Benjamin who campaigned to get the new Domestic Abuse Act through parliament and she’s also a Vice President of the children’s charity Barnardos.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Editor: Karen Dalziel Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. And in this special edition of Woman's Hour, you're going to hear two women reunited over a cause, a cause that has defined one of their lives and is increasingly a bigger part of the others. It also happens that one of the women is set to be the future Queen Consort,

as recently announced by Her Majesty. Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, first met Diana Parks in 2016 at a meeting of the domestic abuse charity Safe Lives, where Diana shared the story of what had happened to her daughter Joanna. Joanna, known as Jo to her family and friends, was battered to death in 2010 by her estranged husband with their two children within earshot. He was later imprisoned and Diana in her early 70s immediately took her two grandchildren who were nine and ten to where she lives on the Isle of Man and began parenting all over again in retirement.

Camilla heard in great detail that story, sitting in a circle with Diana, and in the years since has worked to lift the shroud of silence around domestic abuse, becoming the patron of that charity Safe Lives, and making several speeches saying she will do anything to help survivors of domestic abuse. Well, in this exclusive interview, we reunite the two women. And as you will hear, Diana has done an extraordinary job in raising her grandchildren, who are now adults. It is also Camilla's first interview since it was announced she would be Queen Consort when her husband Prince Charles becomes king.

She gives her reaction to that and explains why when queen consort she will continue to support victims and survivors of domestic abuse and their families, making her the first person in that position to work on this cause which disproportionately affects women. A warning here that the detail of the violence in this interview could upset some of our listeners but here is Camilla Duchessess of Cornwall, and Diana Parks. If we could go back to when you very first met in 2016, which of course was an incredibly powerful moment, I know, for both of you.

And Your Royal Highness, I wondered if I could start with you, but by asking what you remember about meeting and sort of sitting, you were in a circle, I believe. I was so deeply shocked. I don't think in those days I really knew that much about domestic abuse because it was something that we were all brought up to be. It was a very hush-hush subject. It was a taboo subject.

So to actually sit there and have somebody talking about it with the mother of who it had happened to, sitting beside. Well, I'll never forget that moment. And I don't think I would be as involved in it now if I hadn't met you. Thank you. You were the one that started my passion. Thank you so much. And I remember saying to you at the time, I don't know what it is, but I really, really want to do something to help. Thank you. That's how it all started. And I wonder from your memory, of course,

that what was being described as incredibly violent, incredibly distressing for you, but obviously a story you knew all too well. What was that like, I suppose, sitting with this audience, of course, a member of the royal family, listening to this, because you have tried to make it your life's work since, to have some impact in this area? Well, Jo had been killed in 2010, so this was six years later. So, I mean, it still obviously brings tears. You never get over the grief, yn 2010, felly roedd hwn yn ddiweddau yn ôl. Felly, mae'n amlwg, mae'n dod i'w ddangos, nad ydych chi'n cael drosodd y grif ond rydych chi wedi dysgu i ffordd ymlaen â'r grif.

Ac wrth gwrs, pan fyddwch chi'n clywed y stori yn ôl, mae'n dod i gyd yn ôl, ond nid yw diwrnod yn mynd i'w ddod o hyd pan dydwch chi ddim yn ei roi syniad arno, yn enwedig wrth edrych ar y plant a oedd yn fy nheulu. Wel, rwy'n credu hefyd, beth sy'n arbennig iawn am ein bod yma gyda'n gilydd yw dwi ddod i ymweld â chi ac roedden ni'n gwneud rhaglenni, roeddech chi'n fy edrych ar rhaglenni radio ar Five Live, ar ôl y cyfnod cyntaf o lockdown ac roedd yn dal i fod yn amser anodd iawn yn y wlad. Roedd yn 2020, mewn ddyn, os ydw i'n cofio'n gywir. Roedden ni'n siarad am ddynion rhai o'r

achosion rydych chi'n eu cefnogi ac fe ddechreuom gyda llwyddiant amgylcheddol oherwydd if I recall correctly. And we were talking about themes of some of the causes you support. And we started with domestic abuse because lockdown really put the spotlight on when your home wasn't safe. And when we were on air together, Diana, while I was here, the next room, I believe, you actually texted in. I know, but I don't know why. I just thought, oh, my God, she's talking about Joe and me. So you were listening to Emma live? I was listening yes you see the radio yes or the wireless you call it the wireless we're calling it the radio but both of you I know are big fans of the power of that and that's in part why you did the programme to reach people and I think what was so extraordinary and I remember you saying this was that you spoke in that message about taking in your grandchildren and you have raised them you Ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n ddiddorol iawn, ac rwy'n cofio eich bod yn dweud hyn, yw eich bod wedi siarad yn y neges hwn am ddod â'ch mabogion, ac rydych chi wedi'u gwaith.

Roeddech chi'n 71 pan ddigwyddodd hyn, ac rydwch chi nawr 82, os ydw i'n gallu ddweud hyn. Ac maen nhw nawr yn y brifysgol yn eu blynyddoedd olaf. Ac rwy'n cofio, Mam, roeddech chi'n dweud, dwi ddim yn gallu sylweddoli sut fyddai bod yn cael eu cymryd i'ch mabogion. mum you said I can't relate I can't imagine how it would have been to have taken in your grandchildren and I remember you sort of saying that as a bond well I do I remember thinking I mean mine were a little bit younger than yours but I thought to myself if it was me and suddenly aged the same sort of age to take in grandchildren it's it's. It couldn't have been easy for you.

Well, it just was the natural thing to do. I never gave it a second thought. I just thought, well, I said I'd even stay with them in their house whilst they finished that, you know, year really, and they said, no, Granny, we want to come back to the Isle of Man. We love the Isle of Man. And you probably save their lives. Well, they saved mine, that's for sure. I just love them to bits. What did they make of you coming here today? Well, I mean, they were delighted, obviously. They said, good luck, Granny, you know.

A good shift. Can I just ask Diana some? Please. Diana, I just, what I wanted to know was how it affected your grandchildren. Do you talk to them about it? Katie was much more able to speak about it. This was, they were just near, they could hear her being hit. And this is not a gunshot, one bullet, you're dead.

This was 14 strikes on her head with a claw hammer. And when I had to go and identify her, I couldn't believe what he'd done to her. I really couldn't. And it's the children who suffer so much. And the sad thing is that when you talk about domestic abuse, if children are in a family where there is domestic abuse they grow up thinking that that's normal behavior I think hearing those details are really important and the impact on on the children but it's a testament to you that they are where they are now well it's a testament to them as well isn't it I mean you know Jo was a loving nurturing soul and she'd obviously brought them up really well till they were nine and ten and gave them lots of love.

I think the discussion of domestic abuse during lockdown, it did shine a new light on it, of course. But we are some, well, we're a year and a half on from when we spoke. You've spoken several times since about this. You've continued with your many other causes to shine a light on this. Do you feel that lockdown did change perceptions? How do you feel it is at the moment? I don't think it's got any better. I think lockdown was terrible because people actually couldn't escape.

They were locked in, you know, some of them in very small buildings, probably with an abusive partner, children, you know, it must have been, I mean I can't imagine the horror of it and obviously it did increase because the pressure on people not being able to get out and, you know, do the normal things they do in life. Obviously if you were inclined towards abuse it was going to get a lot worse and you've seen the numbers have gone up but on the other hand it's drawn a lot of people's attention to it. I think it's talked about much more now and lockdown I think did funny things to all of us didn't it but it also brought out things into the open

that we wouldn't have necessarily talked about before. And I think with domestic abuse, this is exactly what happened. Yes, I think in 2010 when Joe was killed, everything was swept under the carpet. People knew it was going on. We're not even talking about that long ago, are we? No. It's not even a decade.

And even, I suppose, when you met and you said prior to that, it wasn't talked about, that was 2016 again. Yes. Do you feel, I was looking back at some of the things and some of the speeches you've given since, and some of them I wonder what you make of, what's been some of the reaction, because I'm also minded of the fact it's nearly a year since Sarah you know, and some of them I wonder what you make of, what's been some of the reaction, because I'm also minded of the fact it's nearly a year since Sarah Everard was kidnapped and

murdered at the hands of a serving police officer. There's been other women too, Sabina Nessa, of course, as well. You actually spoke in October of last year, ma'am, where you said you're a patron of Safe Lives Now, I should say, which trains people how to support those going through it. You said, we need to get men involved in this movement. We do not in any way hold all men responsible for sexual violence, but we do need them on board to tackle it. You went on to say rapists are not born, they're constructed, and that it takes an entire community to dismantle the lies

that foster a culture in which sexual assault is seen as normal, in which it shames the victim. How important do you think it is to get that message out there, in which sexual assault is seen as normal, in which it shames the victim. How important do you think it is to get that message out there that we need a whole culture change? We do need a whole culture change and I think we have to start at the beginning. I think children at school have got to be taught respect and I think, you know, if you can teach boys respect for girls and vice versa, we would be at the beginning of trying to solve this problem.

How it's going to happen, I'm not quite sure. How long is a piece of string? But I think we have got to go back to the beginnings and start with the smallest and just build up this idea that you you have to have Respect for human beings. It's it's sort of lack of respect It's you know treating women Like chattels really thinking and people thinking they can get away with it thinking I'm sure a lot of people do it and think that you know, there's nothing wrong

You know, this is what used to happen. I said to if I may I said to Emma earlier I'm going to be very controversial but I do wish the soaps like Coronation Street, EastEnders, Emmerdale they wouldn't show so much violence and and arguments and you know it's it's making the abnormal normal as one of my friends said. And it also triggers something in a person's brain. They see it on the television or they see it on a video. Exactly. You know some of these very violent videos I'm sure give people completely the wrong idea. Exactly. So I say rhai o'r fideos hyn yn wirioneddol yn rhoi'r syniad wahanol i bobl. Rwy'n siŵr bod rhywbeth sy'n bod yn llerchu yn y canol yno wedi'i ddod yn lliw.

Rwy'n credu mai'r peth arall i'w ddweud yw, un o'r pethau anodd yw bod yn rhaid i chi fod yn cael effeithiol am rywbeth i ddechrau gofalu amdano. Yn amlwg, wnaethoch chi glywed stori yma a chysylltiedigwyd â'r realiti. Yn amlwg, rydych chi'n gwybod amdano, ond mae'n amlwg ei fod yn cymryd rhywbeth i gael ymweld â phobl. A, Diana, rwy'n meddwl o'ch safbwynt ti, sut ydych chi'n meddwl y byddwch yn cael mwy o bobl yn ymwneud â'r ffordd neu'n gofalu am rywbeth os nad yw'n cael ei ddod o'u bywydau? Oherwydd, chi'n gwybod, mae cymryd menywion i fod yn rhan o'r sgwrs. Ac, dwi'n credu, mae'n rhaid i chi siarad amdano ac yn dweud wrth bobl, about it and and I mean you've just got to talk about it and tell people like I mean I suppose

the story that I want to tell you know about what happened to Jo this happens to other loads of other people I mean it's sadly just not me yeah and I think also the important thing is that it can happen in any family it can happen in any anybody setting as well. It's not just one type of person or relationship. And I suppose also we have seen changes in the law with coercive control now included. That's what Joe suffered from mostly. I think that's, you know, it's one thing to know that Joe was so brutally murdered,

but actually the run-up to that... Oh, it's horrendous. ...was coercive control. Yes. Really horrendous. Again, I suppose some people don't yet know what that means. We're still learning. We're still teaching people, aren't we?

It was something, again, I didn't understand about. As you say, you put violence on these soaps and things, but then you get the other side of radio, where you get something like The Archers, which had this brilliant storyline of helen and rob yes and i think more people i talked to afterwards said god we had no idea you know and then you see and it was still lurking at the back of her mind do you remember when that phone called do you remember seeing that man and she thought God has he come back and that's of course how we're going to feel

Exactly when he's released. It's good. Sorry What I absolutely love is I'm going to say I'm going to do my big confession as someone who works for you I don't listen to the archer and I love that. I could just leave the two of you completely alone to talk about this. So we go to Archer's Soap. Archer's Soap, definitely. I would pretend to keep up, but I'm going to lay my cards on the table because we're being honest here. I just wonder, in terms of the ability to tell people your story,

how powerful is it to have somebody in Her Royal Highness's position talk about this because it has been so taboo? Marvellous. It just gives it such headlines. Do you feel that it's shifted or do you still feel that there is still that feeling around it? Because you've now been talking about it for some years. It has shifted because, I mean, I meet a lot of people. I've talked to a lot of women all over the country and men.

I have to admit there are men there especially when coercive control there's a lot of men who suffer too but obviously the majority of women but talking to these women and saying to them look if you can speak out you know talk to your friends talk to your talk talk to anybody who wants to, because the more you talk about it, the more people are going to be able to burden themselves. Because I think what happens is that they feel guilty, they feel the shame, they feel it's their fault. So if they can talk to others who are experiencing the same, they can get up and say, look, this has happened to me and her and him, her,

and just talk about it to other people because it just relieves the burden from others. Sadly, so much of it is they're going to leave their husband or partner because they know they're being abused. But that's when it's the most dangerous time when they're actually going to go. That's when all's the most dangerous time when they're actually going to go that's when all the the damage comes and then sometimes the partner will buy them something to you know to keep them a bit longer with your ability to shine a light and you know you have many causes that are close to your heart but this does seem to have been particularly uh something you've you've really zoned in on if if I may say. Is that correct? It is quite correct.

And I think, hopefully, I shall do it forever. Yes, you said you're going to keep banging that drum drum as a whole. I mean, I shan't let go now. I've got to a point now where things are beginning to move just a tiny bit. But if they can move that tiny bit, they're going to be able to move that much further. So, you know, I'll probably be so old by the time it, you know, something really wonderful happens. But I'm going to keep on. And, of course, there will come a time when your role changes.

The Queen, with her recent announcement about your role, in a way is endorsing the work that you do, all the difficult areas too. How important is that for you and your causes? Well, of course it's a great honour. It couldn't be anything else. But it does help it. I'm going to keep on with these courses. I am passionate about them.

And if it can get a bit of attention, the right sort of attention, I will keep on doing them. If I start something like this, I'm not going to give up mid-channel. I'm just going to keep going to try and help the likes of people like Diana, who suffered so much and her family has suffered so much. And there's so many people out there like Diana who've had the same awful, terrible things happen to them. So you always see yourself giving a voice to these women and keeping going with that. I hope I should be doing it for a lifetime.

Well, that's commitment, Diana. Amazing to hear. You can hold her to that. Hold her to that one. Wonderful. I should say, of course, Her Majesty also talks about looking ahead to the Platinum Jubilee, a sense of hope, optimism. You know, we are coming out of very strange times. Rwy'n dweud, wrth gwrs, mae'r bwysigrwydd hefyd wedi siarad am edrych ymlaen at y jubilew platinum, ymdeimlad o gobeithio, dydym ni'n dod allan o amserau anodd iawn.

Pa mor bwysig ydych chi'n credu ei fod yn y wlad ar hyn o bryd, bod gennym hynny i edrych ar? Mae'n bob amser yn hyfryd cael rhywbeth i edrych ar, nid yw'n dda? Rydym ni i gyd wedi mynd trwy amser anodd, rydym ni i gyd wedi cael ein llwytho gan ein teuluoedd a'n ffrindiau, ac nawr gallwn i gyd gydweithio eto a chrwmio. hard times. We've all been locked away from our family and friends and now we can all get together again and celebrate. Are you making any cakes? Are you doing any recipes? I haven't really thought about it. I have spent a lot of my life cooking, I have to say.

Maybe you can have a rest now. You are quite wonderful. I shall said I shall never forget, ever forget the moment meeting you and thinking... I shall never forget the moment meeting you two, believe you me, it was wonderful. It's probably usually that way around, but it's a very lovely thing to be able to bring you together, if I can put it like that, and sit with you together. Especially after we received that text message while we were live on the radio. It was extraordinary, wasn't it? I couldn't believe it when I heard back the next day that you were actually running. It was extraordinary because I don't know what...

I always like it when we get messages in the middle. I think, you know, you never know what you're going to get and the listeners, you don't know what you're going to say. On that programme, you did say you were enjoying wearing your jeans during lockdown. I did enjoy wearing them. Have you not been able to wear them as much since? I have worn them since.

I've dressed up in my best today. Well, you look terribly smart. We appreciate it. Are you still doing your ballet, Silver Swans? I'm still doing my ballet. Wow. I do Pilates. You do Pilates.

I was going to say, so lockdown, any other things that you perhaps weren't doing and you're now carrying on doing? I play bridge still, which I love. But just with friends in an afternoon, not in a club anymore. I gave that up when Jo died because I was putting children to bed till 9 o'clock at night and this was an evening bridge club. And you've taken on the challenge at the golf club now, you told me as well. And now I'm lady president at the golf club. There's no stopping her, is there? Well, thank you very much for having us here today and thank you for coming, Diana. Indeed, thank you so much. having us here today. And thank you for coming, Diana.

Indeed. Thank you so much. It's been such an honour to be here. Well, thank you for inspiring me. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for you. Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall and Diana Parks. And just towards the end of that interview and that exchange, it was remarkable to hear those two women back together again. You know what I said about messages while you were on air. And we have been receiving messages in response to that interview and to what was said there and scarlet says so very true domestic abuse was a taboo subject some may still feel of course it is decades ago the authorities could not be called for domestic abuse if called they would just say it's a marital issue we cannot get involved and and leave. We've come a long way, but we can make it better. And more messages along the lines of thanks as well for shining a light.

Sarah says, thank you for highlighting the need that people respect people. This is at the basis of a decent society and a lack of respect is what's at the basis of all abuse. Dawn says, I'm listening to this conversation between Camilla and Diana. Thank goodness someone has finally had the courage to say how awful the British soap operas are with violence, domestic abuse,

coercive control. This is of course from Diana Parks being the main themes. Please get the script writers to address this. Show what family life is really like. Life in the real world doesn't have to be all gloom and doom.

Of course, others will feel differently about this and more messages along those lines. And just one here from Brenda who says, as a woman who grew up with a father who was a batterer and lived in a household of constant abuse, I appreciate you and the Duchess and the team shining a light on what is often hidden in shame and darkness.

Thank you. More messages to that effect. And I should say, should you wish to watch any part of that interview, we are sharing some clips on our social media feeds, which you can find via at BBC Woman's Hour. And a longer version of those particular clips put together as a film will be shown on the BBC Breakfast TV programme on BBC One. But away from Clarence House, I spoke to Diana Parks separately

because we very rarely get to hear what happens after domestic violence, or in this case, the killing of someone. I wanted to hear how Diana managed to carry on and raise her grandchildren, Katie and Alex, as her own, and how also the children coach. I should also say, after her daughter Jo was killed, Diana Parks set up a foundation to help improve the lives of children impacted by physical and emotional abuse. And again, I should reiterate in this particular conversation, violence is described. But our conversation begins with Diana Parks reflecting on what it's like to have met the Duchess of Cornwall in the first place. I'm totally amazed, really. I felt she was incredibly compassionate and understanding.

And I don't know, I just felt at ease with her. I think the element that you talk about there, being able to talk easily to her, but what you were talking about was anything but easy. And you shared your story and what had happened to your daughter with her. And I suppose that's where I wanted to start with regards to almost the aftermath because the the story of what happened to Joanna is absolutely horrendous on every single level but the there's an added element here which means

that your life completely changed as it would anyway but in a different way because of her children and and the role that you've played in their lives and if I was able to take you back to the immediate aftermath you had to you had to become a mum again I did and they were nine and ten at the time and you were in your early 70s I was 71 and my husband was 76 And you were preparing to go on a big trip? We were going to go. We hadn't been ever. He wasn't madly keen, but I persuaded him. I said, it would be so lovely just to go and do this. And he agreed.

And, of course, that all had to be cancelled because of what happened to Joe. In fact, we'd been to the surgery to see what vaccinations we needed. And we came back to hear from Joe's friend that had I spoken to her that morning and I said no. And he said, well, the police have rung me. And immediately that set up alarm bells.

And I just knew he'd done something to her. I just knew straight away. Because they were in the middle of a very acrimonious... Very and he threatened her. He did the most awful things to her. I mean his coercive control was incredible, absolutely terrible. He hurt her in so many other ways. He just made her life miserable the whole time. The children heard what happened, didn't they? Yes, they did. Which is another extraordinary element of this, if I could put it like that.

It is. It's terrible. How or what did they hear? Do you know? They heard her being bludgeoned and Katie said that she heard the banging. They were only two doors away. And then she saw him carrying her, my daughter Jo, to the car with her leg dangling down and I think if Katie hadn't seen him,

I think he would have torn out the CCTV, which he did, pulled out the telephone and driven off and left the children there. And when I took the children to where he'd buried her, they said, we know this place really well. Our den is just nearby, but dad used to disappear. How do you begin with those children, Alex and Katie, now in their 20s, we should say, how do you begin to look after them after that? I think we tried to make life as normal as possible. I mean, we just had to. There was no going back, no choice. You know, you just literally do what you think is best for the children. My whole life was centred on making them as happy as I could and trying not to isolate them from other children.

Because they came to live with you. They came to live with us and they went to the school that Jo had gone to. And actually the school was good. The pastoral care was good. We lived 45 minutes away, 20 miles away from the school. So it was a... So age 71 you were back on the school ramp. Yes.

And babysitting, sorting out babysitting. And I used to play golf and bridge. And of course somehow that... To be honest, I didn't really want to play bridge particularly because I just felt it was... I don't know, it was in the evening anyway and I would have had to get someone to care for the children and it took ages putting them to bed.

I mean, you know, it was at least nine o'clock before they were sort of all tucked up and everything because they were they were nine and ten yes and probably a need of feeling like you were there absolutely i mean they would cuddle you know they would come and cuddle and then during the night of course they would get upset and come into my bed our bed but fred moved out because obviously at 76 he needed sleep. So, you know, my bed was open to them. You must have also been in need of all sorts yourself with what you were dealing with.

I think having them gave me this great purpose and I just thought they are the most important things Jo loved children she'd been desperate to have children I knew that they were hers you know yes and so you could still be close to her I suppose through absolutely absolutely absolutely we never stopped talking about mum we We never hid photographs. We just talked about her all the time, what she would have thought and, you know, things like that. And we also played on the way to school Viva La Vida,

which was one of Jo's favourite tunes to play in the car when we were going along and we were singing away, you know. And, yes, so, you know, we just tried to make life normal, really. Did you get them some kind of professional help, a therapist or anything like that? Well, crews on the Isle of Man sent this lady round who was their counsellor for children. It's going to sound terribly ungrateful,

but the children didn't really like it because they were made to feel different. Yes. And did they need any more, not necessarily counselling, but kind of any help with dealing with what I imagine would be difficult memories or anything else? They've managed to sort out their lives, which is fine. And they're pretty buzzed now, to be honest. And for you, how did you...? Straight away after Jo was killed. She used to ring me about three times a day. At certain times of the day, I knew it would be Jo.

And she used to ring at the end of the archers or just before. And when the phone rang at that time, if somebody rang, I would get this tremendous jolt and think, oh, God, could that be Jo? Could it all have been a bad dream? You know, has this really happened, I think, is what I can honestly say. I would wake up in the night and think, has this really happened? How can it have happened?

And also, I love music. I love all kinds of music. But I just couldn't listen to music. I found it too emotional. I just didn't want to watch television. I couldn't bear to watch the news in case anything came up. So that's how I... But I had a couple of horses on the land and i used to go and snuggle up into them and great solace and being outdoors i suppose and just feeling i suppose trying to find those moments which don't make you think of of it or of what happened you just

i think animals are tremendously therapeutic and just the fact that they're just still there and you know they don't know any different and you just can put your arms around and one of them was a cob who had the lovely comfy neck and i used to just bury my head in it this was when the children were at school how was it for you and fret how was your relationship i'm just thinking of well he was meant to be going on a cruise. I know. And then he's not in his bed. I know.

And then he's on the school run, I suppose, as well, wouldn't you? He's been absolutely incredible. I couldn't fault him in any way at all. He's just been, he loves the children. And he loved Joe. He really loved Joe. And I'm sure they love him. He's just been Fred.

He's loved Joe. And I'm sure they love him. He's just been Fred. He's just lovely. And the children, we should say, have done well. You know, they've carried on with their lives. The children have done very well. What are you able to say about where they're up to? They've carried on with their education. Yeah, they're both in their final years at university. And they've always called you Granny.

Yes, always, even now. Yes. I didn't know if that had changed, I suppose, when't do you know i love it i do love it i know lots of people call their elder parents by their christian names nowadays but i still i'm a bit old-fashioned but i love granny you have the foundation as well um tell us about that because that has kept you more than busy as well yes it kept us very busy well i'm terribly excited to tell you that yesterday i met with hetty who founded the foundation with me she was joe's best friend and the foundation is called the joanna simpson foundation we used Her maiden name. I was trying to think what it was. Her maiden name, yes. And you support people or the families who...

We support... What we do is, our aim is to support children who have parents who have suffered abuse and children like Katie and Alex were without either parent because sadly about 70% of children after something like this have to go into care because some families just can't take them on. It's terribly sad. Have the children wanted to pay a loan?

Yes, they're both trustees. They are? Yes, they're both trustees. Sometimes you can want to go towards something and sometimes you can want to get as far away from it as possible. No, they wanted to help. They think it's a really good idea. May I ask if they're in touch with their father?

No, they're not at all. And how much of a thought is this in your mind at the moment that he could be released as early as next year? We're terrified. We are all absolutely terrified all of us my son all of us and even my daughter's friends because he did all this coercive control he stalked one of her friends he in windsor great park they were riding bicycles and he came at them as if he was going to go straight into them and just verged off at the last minute and frightened her children.

He also was really rude to her at school, shouting at her in the school playground. And she actually reported him to the police. Right. So there is this still with Joanna's friends and the wider network oh absolutely have you got any plans for how to handle this or what to do because of course with the children now being adults i know well you're told you can make an exclusion zone so i am hoping that the isle of man will become an exclusion zone but to my mind you can't really make an exclusion zone. But to my mind, you can't really make an exclusion zone in England

because you're telling him where they are. So to me, it isn't a good idea. Are you in touch or are you trying to be in touch with anyone, I don't know, from the probation service? I'm desperately trying to be in touch with someone from the probation service. I'm trying to find out who is going to monitor him. Is he going to be electronically tagged, which I think he should be, but he's so clever that he'll find a way of getting out of that, I'm certain. Well, they tell you because you're technically

not his family. I'm just thinking about, I'm not trying to present the problem, but it's more, you know, when they say data protection or nothing to do with the individual. Well, I can't imagine they won't because I've got his children. I don't know. That's the question, I suppose. I don't know. But right now you're saying to me... But he's a threat to us. Of course.

So at the moment, as it stands, you cannot get an answer from the probation service... No, they haven't replied. ...about the father of your grandchildren who killed their mother coming out that you're extremely concerned about. Yes. The statement that I've got here from the Ministry of Justice with regards to what's going on here in this case as you're talking about it says this, if I can read it to you. Our heartfelt sympathies remain with the family and friends of Joanna Brown.

Strengthening our response to domestic abuse has been a priority for this government and our landmark Domestic Abuse Act does exactly that. We have given the police and courts more powers to protect victims from immediate harm while forcing perpetrators to take steps to change their behaviour. And for the first time, we have created a statutory definition of domestic abuse that includes coercive or controlling behaviour. We're also sparing more victims the distress of being cross-examined by their abusers

and boosting funding for victim services to £185 million a year so no one is left to suffer alone. So that's the statement. It doesn't respond directly, I suppose, to the probation report. There are not enough probation officers. You know, it takes time to train probation officers they are under stress i'd be i've been reading yes well i mean the guidance on release with regards to license just to give a brief flavor says offenders on license face strict conditions where they can travel who they can contact they can be recalled to prison for breaching these conditions that you mentioned licensed conditions can include exclusion zones

preventing offenders going to certain places and victims of the most serious sexual and violent offenses where the prisoner is sentenced to 12 months or more imprisonment have the statutory right to the probation victim contact scheme though the scheme victims have the right to make representations about through the scheme excuse me victims have the right to make representations about licensed conditions would would that cover you and your grandchildren because i suppose would they be seen as victims i'm sure they are victims aren't they they're always victims they're children well in the new domestic abuse act, apparently children are. Yes, they are.

But sadly, very sadly for us, when Robert Buckland was Justice Secretary, he actually brought out this two-thirds sentence, that someone would serve two-thirds of their sentence. But retrospectively, he went back only ten years, so we missed out by one year. He went back to 2012, and the trial was 2011. But when I'm told they come out on licence so that they can get used to being out and socialise

and realise they're not in a confined... Why do you need 13 years to do that, for goodness sake? You've committed the most heinous crime in the world. It's not like a shot with one gunshot. It's hitting someone 14 times with a claw hammer. How can we be safe? There is, of course, just to point out, he will be eligible for parole. I mean, parole, he might not necessarily get it.

He isn't eligible for parole. Tell me more, sorry. Because he's serving a determinate sentence and he's just going to come out of jail. He will definitely come out. Yeah. So there is no doubt on this? No. I'd love there to be.

I'd love something to happen. How much has his release been hanging over you and the children? A lot. Huge. Huge. And my son. Huge. I just think it's important because we have... What we don't often do is hear about what happens afterwards, what happens next, and I think it is very important to hear about how you've rebuilt and the amazing work with the children

and your life, but I think that element of them being released is not something we hear very often it isn't many will also be listening to this who who are completely in awe of what you've done with you know you'll see it and I know we've spoken a lot that you see it as no choice you know of course you're going to do that um I mean I don't want to put words in your mouth. Maybe you don't feel like that, but that's the impression you've always given me, that you took the children, that was never in doubt. Oh, I didn't hesitate. So with that in mind, you know,

some people listening will be just thinking, you know, wow, well done. I didn't feel it was abnormal at all. You know, it was just their family. And the purpose that you mentioned that they've given you. Yes. Do you think it's in part your sort of ability to get over the killing of your daughter has been down to that? Yes, definitely.

And I would have hated to have thought that it was somewhere else and I would have worried about them. You know, they're my daughter's children and I love them to bits. Diana Parks. Since recording that interview, Diana has in fact heard from the probation service and she has been told they will be discussing the children's father, Robert Brown's licence conditions with her,

her family, as well as two of Jo's friends. We've also spoken to the Ministry of Justice to clarify when Robert Brown will be released and he is serving a standard determinate sentence, i.e. not a life sentence. So the default position is that he will be released at the halfway point on licence. Many reactions and messages coming in from you right now. And this email from Susan said, just listening to the remarkable Lady Diana Park, she stopped me in my tracks with her stoicism and honesty. And Holly says, I've had to pull the car over because I'm crying.

What a wonderful woman Jo's mummy is and her husband Fred. The Duchess is also an inspiration. Two wonderful women. Thank you for shining a light on this awful event and domestic abuse. I'm so grateful that the children had the love of their amazing grandparents to have gone through such horror and still think of others by setting up a charity is just amazing. I sure joe would have been so proud of her parents and children while talking about the children in the immediate days after the death of joanna simpson

her children katie and alex were seen by a psychologist to help them process what had happened that person was david tricky who works at the children's mental health charity, the Anna Freud Centre. He's specialised in family homicide and domestic abuse for more than 20 years and has worked with hundreds of children who have experienced family homicide. He's a consultant clinical psychologist and the chair of the UK Trauma Council. He joins me now. Good morning. Hello there. What are your recollections of that time and and what kind of happens immediately afterwards well of course i won't talk about my individual clinical work with

specific individuals but you can hear from diana and the way that she talks about how she swooped in and saved these children and she provided what we would think of as the very best environment for those children where they are most likely to recover. So when we look at the research around these incidents, we know that there are certain elements of that environment which are most likely to help children to recover without the help of therapists like myself. So one of the most important things she did was provide that stability, that instant stability, following something so massively traumatic and so massively destabilizing. What children, young people need is stability.

So they don't need something extraordinary. What they need is extraordinary. And Diana talked about that normality. So she instantly provided them with stability. They knew they were going to live with her. That was never in question. They didn't have to wonder what was going to happen next. She also provided them with that web of connections and support and social environment. So she talked about the importance

of school and their friends and the whole maternal family kind of gathered around them to really provide that connection and the relationships. And she also talked about giving them some sense of control. So when something so uncontrollable has happened actually if you are then given some control so she talked about giving them the choice of where they wanted to live and together as a package that really did provide this fantastic environment for those two children following such a dreadful traumatic bereavement you know it's bad enough being bereaved in childhood being bereaved of a parent in childhood being bereaved of a parent in childhood by um homicide at the

hands of your other parent you know this traumatic bereavement just layer upon layer of complexity and what diana did was provide that environment where they were most likely to recover and as she said to uh walk alongside what had happened. I mean, very rough figures in the fact that we know, as it stands, around one woman a week is killed, usually leaving at least two children. So every year there are around 100 children affected, perhaps in this way. But that's just the top of the pyramid, an unknown number of children then witnessing abuse, but not perhaps losing a parent in that scenario and then have to figure out as a family

or separately how to go forward. Is it rare that children in this sort of scenario do go and actually live with a member of the family or what do you usually see? Well very roughly up to about half of them will end up living with one side of the family either paternal or maternal or extended family and the other half will either be fostered or possibly adopted and very often that is the first lack of stability because where are they going to live and the court have to help decide and they may go to foster parent for a while and then try a family member they're sort of rattling around different homes and they don't know where they're gonna where they're gonna stay and again that's what Diana she put paid all of that she just you know there was never a doubt in her mind this is where

you're gonna live and and the other element about this particular case but again I was interested to hear how it is with others is in this case the children do not want anything to do with their father um and but that becomes more complicated, I suppose, in other cases. Absolutely. So some children and young people will want to see if it's the father that's killed the mother, the father, possibly just to tell them what they think of him, possibly to get an explanation from him. And then some children will actually want an ongoing relationship. Some of them will want to know that he's okay, because they may still love him despite what's happened. Very often, the people around the

children in these situations, they think, well, they can't possibly have contact with the father. But actually, if they can be helped to go and visit the father who's usually in prison, if their last memory was him in this murderous rage, to then see him in a very different situation, a very different demeanor, and actually have him say to them, I'm really sorry for what I've done. This is what happened. This is the explanation. I'm now in prison where I should be. And I want to continue to support you and help you in any way I can. If it can actually, if that narrative can come from the father themselves,

that could be incredibly helpful for the children and young people. Do you believe that the right support is in place for children to be able to navigate something like this? I'm also minded of this being in the news with the Domestic Abuse Act and children now being seen as victims in this. Yeah I mean and of course children are victims even if they're not the object of the violence they are affected obviously massively by this and I think it's a bit of a hit and miss really whether the object of the violence, they are affected, obviously, massively by this. And I think it's a bit of a hit and miss, really, whether the children get the support that they need, that they would benefit from. And very much pressure is put on the local authorities.

And there are some local authorities who are doing an amazing job, but really pouring in all the support and help they possibly can. And others are so stretched, they find it really difficult to provide the support. Well, of course, also charity step in, suppose the joanna simpson foundation we've already mentioned i know it's now working closely with another charity children heard and seen which helps children who have a parent in prison perhaps to navigate as you were just describing some of those more complex relationships do you think i suppose zooming out one further, that children can make a recovery from this sort of situation? Well, I think they never get over something like this, but you can get through it and you can learn to live alongside it. And to me, that's a pretty good outcome.

David Tricky, thank you for your time. If you do want to find out more about Diana's Charity, the Joanna Simpson Foundation Children, Heard and Seen that I just mentioned, we will be posting links on the Women's Hour website, along with other links, I should say, for support and advice. But I just mentioned there the Domestic Abuse Act, which enshrines the idea of children, crucially, as victims of, not just witnesses to, abuse. I'm now joined by Baroness Floella Benjamin, a Liberal Democrat peer,

of course, a doyen of children's television, a dame and a vice president of the children's charity, Barnardo's. Good morning, Floella Benjamin, a Liberal Democrat peer, of course a doyen of children's television, a dame and a vice president of the children's charity, Barnardo's. Good morning, Floella. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for being with us today on this special edition of the programme. I must admit I'm weeping listening to Diana. It means, you know, it's kind of my heart goes out to her and all the thousands and millions of children in the country who have suffered and just, you know, what she has described. So I think, you know, she deserves a medal.

It's been absolutely, and thank Women's Hour for bringing this to the forefront of people's minds. Well, thank you for that. And I suppose with Diana talking like this, and I suppose, again, with the Duchess as well, about trying to get people to talk about it, that's obviously not enough. It's about what is then done to support those who are going through it. So there's the education piece to stop it from happening, you hope, in the first place,

but also what is going through Parliament. And I mentioned the Domestic Abuse Act. I know as a peer, as a member of the House of Lords, you've been looking at that. How confident are you that that can change the impact of this on people's lives, especially children? Well, I think when I spoke on the bill in Parliament, I always said childhood lasts a lifetime. And at this very moment, you know, there's a child crying out for help because they're actually witnessing some sort of abuse, domestic violence abuse, or going through it themselves, you know. So they, as David said, mentally, emotionally and physically, they're having to deal with a situation. So I, myself and, you know, working through Barnardo's and other

children's charities and women's charities, we wanted to make sure that the government realises that children are victims in domestic violence, even if it might not be to them themselves. And we wanted to make sure that the country wakes up to the fact that this is happening and to, you know, put programmes in place to keep children safe, to make sure that they are seen as victim, whether it's in their home or whether they're living in a refuge. And I was really proud that it became part of the Act and it's now being enforced since January 2022. The law has changed to make sure that children are victims. Childhood lasts a lifetime and we must put children first, see it through their eyes.

And I think Diana, Diana speaking this morning, is an advocate of exactly why that needs to happen. And I think, you know, for me also just talking to you, you know, as someone I've watched on television as a child and you being somebody who has dedicated a lot of your working life to the joy of children that's also a big part of what she's managed to restore exactly you know I when I did my programs and when I still do children's programs I try and pour unconditional love into that child so even if they're going through some sort of trauma they know that somebody out there loves them unconditionally. And working with Barnardo's, we try and do the same thing. In fact, we run specialist services to work with people who have committed domestic violence, because they too, as children, might have seen some sort of domestic abuse. And we try and get them to understand that you can change things you can actually get

your put yourself in the place of others and think you can actually make sure you don't continue that domestic violence that kind of feeling of out of control looking at their victim especially their children seeing what they've done to their children because what we don't want to happen is for children to grow up becoming abusers themselves and because of you know the internet has actually caused a lot of problems the internet children have seen domestic violence i've seen sorry sexual abuse on the internet which gives them the idea that this is what reality is all about, to be violent against women. And so they grow up thinking that's the norm. And I have been talking in Parliament over the last nine years about

having age verifications that children do not see violent sexual abuse, thinking that's norm, growing up believing that's the way you behave towards women. Are you still campaigning for that? Because you did try and amend the Act to include that particular article. You've talked of a conveyor belt of sexual predators who commit violence against women. Where are you up to with that? Well, I think we've kind of won a small battle

because the government is now saying that they will have to have age verification for videos, you know, because it was always self-generated just on social media. Now it's going to be violent videos that you see streaming through, which children can easily access at the moment. And they're saying they're going to have to have age verification to stop children watching this kind of material. Well, maybe at a different point, we could explore that in more detail,

because there's also some concerns about the technology to do so and it being effective and actually what impact it would have. But a theme also coming through... Let me just say that a lot of money, millions of pounds have been spent on this technology, and it hasn't been given a fair outing about how people can put their details in without people knowing who they are. You go to an age verification site where it's completely anonymous, nothing to do with the pornography side of what people are watching.

Let's definitely return to that. But if I may just return to the bigger theme of today's programme, because many messages also coming in, and you're a member of the House of Lords, with people, for instance, this one, just listen, saying, what an amazing Lady Diana Parks is, but it's absolutely staggering

that the killer with a record of what's gone on here, with also then the crime, is to be released. A lot about that and about the release here. I suppose, are you concerned about where we are on that and the punishments for this?

Very much so. And just listening to Diane this morning is actually, again, another side of this domestic abuse situation that we're not aware of. And the public needs to get behind people like myself, like politicians, who are saying, we want to make change. That's how you get change done, by the public needs to get behind people like myself, like politicians, who are saying we want to make change. That's how you get change done, by the public all together.

Like, you know, the Duchess of Cornwall mentioned this morning, everybody has got to be part of this, solving this problem. And Diana has flagged up a lot of the issues that we haven't actually thought about, that we need to be focusing on. Well, many would say they have thought about, and they've tried to bang the drum, as the Duchess put it, but they haven't perhaps been heard until now. Because you will remember only a few years ago, as the Duchess was thinking back to,

talking about this was incredibly taboo. And it's extremely recent. Yes, if you work in the field, that's very different. And it's extremely different how it has changed and where we are now. And I just wonder, I know that you have, you know, you've met the Duchess of Cornwall on many occasion and you've done things with her, worked on various aspects of looking after children and campaigns together. What impact do you think it will be that when she is Queen Consort, as is the plan, we understand it, that she has said she will continue with this type of work because no one has in that role done that before. I think to give her, you know, her dues, it's incredible that she has decided to take on this issue because what we need, as you said, we haven't really been, the public hasn't been really aware of the trauma and the damage done to children who are suffering this domestic abuse and to women as well. So, you know, and it happens behind closed doors.

You never know where it's going to happen. So have somebody who speaks out, you know, about this issue, who is high profile, makes it even more kind of important that everybody else listens and I know personally that the duchess when she commits herself to something she gives it a hundred percent she you know is passionate about whatever she's passionate about she will give her heart and her soul to get a solution and but it's not just her is she has to gather this kind of feeling of enthusiasm, of people, of determination, especially after hearing your programme today, of trying to make a difference, to get boys to grow up, to respect women,

to get the media to understand that they have a part to play. Every single person in the country, because you don't know when it'll happen to you. So it's almost like an insurance policy that you do to make sure that and you if you have young children, young girls, you don't want to end for them to end up like Joe, you don't want to end up like Diana. So you do something now to make sure that we get children to grow up understanding and respecting each other to make sure that domestic violence don't become a taboo subject but become a subject that you discuss and if you are a if you are somebody who um

commits domestic abuse look at your past sit down with a psychologist try and work out what's happening i do a lot of prison visits i go to Rye Hill Prison in rugby and I talk to the prisoners. Well, I would love, and I'm sure our listeners, forgive me for cutting across you, Baroness Floella Benjamin. I would love to hear a lot more about that. But that is all we've got time for today. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest

mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.