Woman's Hour - Can all nurseries survive the pandemic?; Forced marriage; Re-creating the Bayeux tapestry

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

At the beginning of the pandemic nurseries, pre-schools and many child minders shut down at the same time as schools, to all but the children of key workers and the most vulnerable. Most reopened in June and have remained open ever since. Providers of early years education have been urging the government for more money, saying that a lack of demand over the last year has put them under even more financial strain and many may not survive. Emma speaks to Stephanie Carless who runs a preschool in the West Midlands, and Shannon Pite, Public Affairs Director for the Early Years Alliance.Some women in the ultra orthodox Jewish community believe the laws on forced marriage are not serving them adequately and action needs to be taken. Emma is joined by Yehudis Fletcher, the founder think tank Nahamu, which aims to counter what it sees as extremism in the Jewish community; and by Chaya Spitz, chief executive of the Interlink Foundation, which represents Orthodox organisations. Mia Hansson is a 46 year old artist and stay at home mum, who is recreating a full-scale replica of the Bayeux tapestry. Mia started stitching 4 years ago, and thinks she'll be finished stitching sometime in 2027.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. We find ourselves on another Monday. That's happened again after those weekends perhaps are blending into one, except maybe you awoke this morning to a white carpet of snow outside your window.

That may break it up a bit. But for lots of you listening, perhaps taking a break with us during a well-earned cup of tea, you're entering into another week of having your children at home of all ages. Today on the programme, we want to explore how life will change for you if you don't have a nursery or childminder to go back to if your children are at that very young age. We're going to hear how this part of the education and childcare industry is suffering. It was already struggling before the pandemic, but perhaps your local provider is not going to reopen. What are you going to do if nurseries and childminders in

your area do not survive the pandemic? Do you have to stop work? What changes will be happening in your family, in your home? Perhaps your partner will also change what they're doing. Sociologists call it the motherhood penalty, as typically it's mums who change their lives when there's no childcare available. And they also call it that because the earnings and career gaps between women with or without children are documented. Such gaps can be substantial, as much as 20% for income over the long run. So perhaps you're thinking, well, maybe I'll have to take a break, a forced break for now. We can't really afford it or we can just about deal with it. But it might have a long-term

impact on your potential to earn and also climb that career ladder if that speaks to you in the industry you're in. How is it then looking for you? If you are in a situation where children, your children go to nursery or childminders, you're going to hear in the programme shortly about what's going on with that part of education and childcare. What will it mean for your family? Tell us now, 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email us your experiences through our website. Be good to talk to you as well on air directly. So we'll see if we can get some of you on air as well.

But also on today's programme, the woman trying to recreate the entire Bayer tapestry alone. All 68.3 metres of it. We'll hear how she's doing it, how many years she's already been at it for and how long it may take and why. Why she wanted to do this. Apparently it's something to do with her having a competitive edge. We'll hear all of that to come and a message from Denise straight off the bat about that saying

I do hope you're going to mention the full scale Victorian replica of the Bayer Tapestry which is on permanent display in Reading Museum created by the wife of industrialist Thomas Wardle and the women embroiderers of Leek and the area. Denise, you've done it for us. Thank you very much for that message. Keep them coming in on anything you hear on the programme this morning. And I say that with particular reference for what our first discussion is going to be, because if you do have an experience of this and you

are near the radio and you want to share it, you do not have to give your real name. This morning, a document arrived at the desk of the Home Office and the government's forced marriage unit. It told those working there, when it comes to forced marriages in one community in particular, they're going undetected, leaving women and men too trapped in a life they see no escape from often. It was co-authored by a woman from the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community,

a community which is strictly observant of traditional Jewish law and is often quite insular to the outside world. The document is based on the testimony of dozens of women and some men. One of those women, Beatrice Weber, was married for 23 years. We should say most in this community are very unwilling to talk publicly about their experiences, but Beatrice did both for that document and to us here at Woman's Hour. She's now divorced. She went to school here in the UK, but married in the US. She told our reporter Melanie Abbott about her experience, which she says reflects the same practices in the UK.

I met my husband three times. I was considered highly desirable, both because of the lineage. We can say we come from certain rabbis and because my father had gotten wealthy over the years. And what were those meetings like? You know, it's really challenging because the way we're raised is completely segregated for boys. Like from when you start school at three, you're in completely different schools. You learn completely different things. The man I was meeting who became my husband, he barely spoke any English because he had gone to only Hasidic schools where the language of instruction wasn't Yiddish. So after those three meetings, were you asked if you wanted to get engaged to him? Oh, that's a good question. That the only way you can say no is if there's something

absolutely hugely offensive or disturbing to you. So there was never, is this what you really want? We were engaged for five months. During the engagement, I spoke to him once every two weeks for about 10 minutes. He went back to Israel to study, which was very customary that he'd go back and then come back a week before the wedding. Did you in any way feel prepared for marriage or was there any kind of thought of preparing you for marriage by your parents and those around you? There was actually a formal classes to attend. I remember it was a 12 week series. There's no sex education. So you have never been taught about sex at all. You know, it's a holy act. And it's in the context of all of these rules and rituals. You learned a lot about the rules and the rituals then. How much did you learn about

the actual act act if you like a lot of what we were told what was he'll know what to do you know and he got annoyed when I didn't know everything I was supposed to do like where to place the pillow or where to put a garbage bag and all that to set things up properly he just a garbage bag the idea was that um it can get messy and you want to protect the sheets. He's like, didn't you know you're supposed to lay down a pillow and then put it on top of garbage bag and then we lay on top of that. Obviously it would never have occurred to you at the time, but looking back now, do you think that the issue of consent arises here? You know, the issue of

consent is almost non-existent and was non-existent for many, many years for me. So there's very little room for consent. It's not considered a priority. I've heard there can be financial arrangements involved. Was that the case with you? Yeah. So there was, you know, a house where we received a house as part of kind of the dowry. And then there was, you know, monthly stipends that we got. At that point, my father committed for five years. And I remember that was a little bit of a sticking point. Eventually, it ended up being close to 15 years. How far do you think the financial arrangements make it difficult to say no or to back out

during this lead up to getting married? I was not financially independent on any level or even thought of the possibility of going to college. That was not at all. So I was completely dependent at that point on my parents' money. What do you think would have happened if you had said, no, this isn't what I want? It would never have crossed my mind. It couldn't just be that I changed my mind. You know, that was not a possibility. You were married for 23 years. Some would say it couldn't have been that bad. The way my marriage was, like the first 15 years, I was basically living in this bubble, shall I say, of I'm so lucky to have married

such a scholar. And then no matter what he does is okay. So I'd really push myself to do everything. And some things were like in retrospect, were really extending myself beyond what was right for myself and my children just to make my husband happy and thinking that my marriage will get better. How many children have you got? So I have 10 children. How quickly after the wedding did you get pregnant? A month later. And she was a premature baby. So she was born, I was married eight and a half months as she was born. I was a baby having a baby. I was just 19. And then 11 months later, I had another one. 19 you know and then 11 months later I had another one and a year and a half later I had another one you know I loved I loved my children I loved

having babies um I didn't I actually did not feel oppressed by it it was just what I did how much can you say that what you experienced and what other Jewish women say they're experiencing, is forced marriage or more of a cultural norm? From when you've been, you know, a baby, you've been conditioned that this is the only way, this is the right way, and there's no other choices. So that's all you know, that's your entire worldview. So by the time you're 18 and being told this is the person you're marrying, you're not starting to question it and thinking, maybe there's another option for me. You're just not thinking that way. From when you've been, you know, a baby, you've been conditioned that this is the only way, this is the right way, and there's no other choices. You know, when you're pushed into a marriage like this at such

a young age, it's almost like your development stops. You're beholden to a man. You have obligations. There's no space to really grow into yourself. And at 18, people are still just starting to grow into themselves. But when you're just forced into something that's not necessarily your will or not necessarily something that you want,

but you're just doing it because that's what's expected, it really stunts your growth. And it can take years to kind of come back to that. Beatrice Weber talking to Melanie Abbott, the woman who helped write that document, she co-authored it, that I was talking about, that's gone to the home office this morning is Yehudis Fletcher, the founder of a think tank called Nahamu, which aims to counter what it seems sees as extremism in the Jewish community. And in a moment, we will also hear from a representative from that community as well. Yehudis, good morning.

Hi, good morning. It's complex in terms of what people will have just heard there. What does forced marriage mean in ultra-Orthodox Jewish circles? I think it's helpful to take a step back. So what does the UK legislation define as forced marriage? And it's very clear that force does not necessarily entail putting a gun to someone's head or making threats of violence or indeed violence. The legislation itself defines coercion and the guidance to that legislation includes emotional and psychological pressure. And I think whilst there can be a spectrum of different kinds of pressure when it comes to

forced marriage, what we're talking about in the paper is primarily emotional and psychological pressure. So you don't feel at the moment that the government is, what, taking account of the way that that is manifesting itself, in particular in the ultra-Orthodox community, which we should say you were a member of? So I still am. I still am a member of that community. And does the government focus on our community?

I think there's just so little discussion of the different communities that it affects. A lot of the communications that that it affects a lot of the um communications that the forced marriage unit uses for example um are quite racialized images um targeted at specific communities and we think it would be better if we could take a step back from saying this is the type of person this is likely to happen to and take a step back and say actually these are the underlying factors that might cause pressure that might result in forced marriage so looking at the indicators of forced marriage rather than looking at groups of people that it's likely to

happen to. But the reason I'm asking that and just to clarify when I said you were a member of that community I totally take the point you're still a member of it. But you have separated yourself from it in some noticeable ways, as in you don't cover your hair anymore. You don't necessarily follow the same dress codes as customers for the women in that community. And you are now working to try and shine a light on what is a very insular community. Yeah, absolutely. It's my community. I love it. And I love the people in it. I've chosen to change the way in which I present to the world. But I don't think that changes. I don't think I should have to reject my heritage or cease to belong to the community and family that I grew up in. But what I'm saying here, and we'll bring in Chaya Spitz in just a moment, the chief executive of Interlink Foundation, which represents ultra-Orthodox organisations, is you are at odds with some of what is being said about this sort of issue.

And you're talking out about it because, I don't want to speak for Chaya, as I say, I'll bring her in in just a moment. Some would argue that what you are saying about forced marriage here and this document that you've delivered to the Home Office today is based on testimonies is a stretch it's not forced marriage as people would understand it well i think whenever women speak out any any women's rights organizations or human rights organizations it's always coming first of all from from whistleblowers and from activists. And we are going against the grain. That's the whole point. We're seeking change. We're seeking better lives and improved access

to just universal human rights that everybody in this country is entitled to, for everyone, including the people in my community. And what have you heard from people because it wasn't just women it was also men what what give us a flavor of that sentiment so we're talking about different ways in which the structures and practices that are common in my community can result in in pressure so for example, very, very brief meetings. So we heard from Beatrice, she met her husband three times. Many people only meet once and that meeting might only last for 20 minutes. Sometimes there's, you know, people waiting in the other room, there might be a

knock on the door saying, have you finished talking to each other yet? Or have you decided yet? And there can be incredibly short meetings to begin with. Besides for that, there's also the fact that once the couple do get engaged, Beatrice says that she spoke to her husband every two weeks. For many couples, even that wouldn't be allowed and there wouldn't be any communication from the engagement until the wedding. So there isn't time to get to know each other. And there also isn't any time to change or any opportunity to form an impression that might cause you to change your mind. There's also the question of what we call the Tanayam document which is it's it's actually it's a historic document that most people don't use anymore and it's been rejected by most of the

Haredi community but in some sections of the community that document is still signed at the engagement and it binds the parents to bring the children to the wedding at a specific date with financial penalties and they don't. And just to say, sorry, when you talk about the Haredi community, you're referring there to the ultra-Orthodox part of the Jewish community for people not familiar with that term. What about being able to leave that marriage? Forced marriage isn't just about on the way to marriage,

it's also about having the freedom to leave. So for women in the Jewish community, they can ask for a divorce, but they can't get a divorce without their husband's consent. So whilst men and women can physically leave the place of them, you know, they could leave the marital home, they wouldn't actually be able to leave the marriage without having what's called a get. And that's also being addressed at the moment through the domestic abuse bill that's in the House of Lords at the moment. But just to be specific, if they do leave in ultra-Orthodox circles, there is a stigma attached to that? Or what is the response of the community? If you, let's say, just for the wrong woman's eye, if the woman wants to leave, what is the response of the community if you let's say just for you know women's if the women if the woman wants to leave what is the response well i think there has been an improved response to women

being able to remove themselves from a marriage more recently but there is still an enormous stigma to to um to getting divorced well let's bring in there's an enormous stigma let's bring in higher spits at that point. Hiya, this document's gone to the Home Office today. What is your response to it? Hi, thanks for having me on. Look, I think that anyone within the community looking at this document will just balk and feel that it's very far removed from the lived reality of

ordinary people. Forced marriage is a completely alien concept in Judaism. Consent and marrying of one's free choice are absolutely fundamental principles. Consent was required by Jewish law centuries before it became, before the concept to force marriage and for that matter, marital rape. All coercive control made their way into British law. And frankly, a marriage where one party has been pressurised into taking part

is an invalid marriage. And if the officiating rabbi... Hang on a minute. Sorry, are you saying these people who've given their testimonies, which completely counter what you're saying, are they lying? No, I'm not. And I was really sad to hear what Beatrice Webber had to say. But look... Her marriage still went ahead though you're saying uh it's an invalid marriage no no that's absolutely well

had the what i i can't talk on the legalities of retro i don't think at the time she um if you had asked her do i want to marry presumably she didn't recognize that but looking back she feels that she was pressurized into that and that is clearly wrong and I think that there are you know thousands of women listening to this program and and everyone would be hard pressed to say that they don't know of anyone or anywhere, any woman who's been subject to some sort of abuse or coercion. And of course, has been wrong. Hang on, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. You've come on as a representative. We're very grateful of the ultra orthodox here. And you're now trying to generalise that, you know, everybody will know somebody who's been coerced or pressurised. But what's been described here by this document and in our broader discussion is a system, a system that will sound incredibly foreign to a lot of people listening, not idea that there's a dowry, that in this country you're taken somewhere, you only get to speak for perhaps a few minutes to each other.

You know, there's this contract we just heard about that the parents will bring the child to the day. I mean, you know, we've just heard from Yehudis. Do you not recognise that description of your community? No, Emma, I don't. it is what you are describing is absolutely abnormal can i give you an example can i tell you what i have to give a reply to yahoodis because you've basically just accused her of of of completely making up what she said is normal what's the example very briefly she's she's well let me tell you about my own experience I come from a family of Hasidic people Hasidic on both sides of my family um and that's how I was raised after I turned 18 I had discussions with my parents about my aspirations for marriage it wasn't about pressure

um it was about I was an educated independent thinking young woman it was about my social norm in my community it was what i wanted all of the perhaps you're very lucky around but perhaps you're no no i think i'm sorry this is this is you that that it's the converse to that what yahudas is describing is and what beatrice is describing is what shouldn't be happening happening and what isn't common she has said it herself to nines these ancient engagement contracts they are not used young women are not taken to weddings none of this is correct when I got engaged to certainly not the first boy that I met but when I got engaged and when my children got engaged, they counted down the days to their wedding.

Okay, well, may I put that to Yehudis? Because you've actually just said a statement within there that I have to put to her. None of this is correct, Yehudis. I think it's really hard to sometimes see what you're used to or not, or maybe have been socialized to accept written down in black and white. And when you see it written down in black and white, sometimes it's quite difficult to accept that that's what's going on. But absolutely, thousands of young Hasidic couples are getting married after having only met for 20 minutes. I lived for many years in Stamford Hill. I don't know why I live in Porton Park now.

But in Stamford Hill, there were many, many people who do absolutely have a tanayim. That's the name of the function. The engagement party is often called the tananiyam um and they they absolutely do my own sister had had a taniyam document um okay so so i mean your point is it's not all completely wrong and this is what you can see and it's hard to see it when you're in it even though as you say you're still part of this community. Chaya, I'll just give you the final word, but I'm very pressed for time. What is your response to that? Look, when my children got engaged, all I wanted was their happiness. I don't think it's for Yehudis to decide whether or not we were forced into that

because our social norms are different to her social norms. We love our way of life. We derive happiness for it. We're blessed with faithful and committed marriages and strong nuclear families. And people, I recognise that she and Beatrice are speaking from pain of their specific circumstances. But you do not accept that as a characterisation of your community. No, and I think it's wrong to stigmatise. It is very wrong to stigmatise and characterise a whole community in this way. That is why we are very grateful for you coming on this morning and for your voice.

Thank you very much for your time there, Chaya Spitzitz and we were hearing from Yehudis Fletcher. We asked the Home Office if a minister could come and talk to us. We got this statement saying forced marriage is not a problem specific to one culture. The UK criminalised it in 2014 and has issued over 2,600 forced marriage protection orders to protect victims. The forced marriage unit raises awareness of this practice and conducts training and outreach activities with a range of organisations. Now, last March, at the beginning of the pandemic, nurseries, preschools and many childminders shut down at the same time as schools to all but the children of key workers and the most vulnerable. Most then reopened in June, have remained open ever since. But times are hard for many of those organisations. Even before the first lockdown, with government funding of around £5 an hour for 15 hours of free care in England for three to four-year-olds, many were already struggling to make ends meet.

Providers of early years education have been urging the government for more money. They say the lack of demand over the last year has put them under even more financial strain and many may not survive. You're getting in touch with us about this. Let me come to your messages in just a moment. But to paint a picture, Stephanie Carlos runs Lapple Grange Preschool in Halesow in West Midlands and Shannon Pite, the Public Affairs Director for the Early Years Alliance. Shannon, it was apparently a difficult picture before the pandemic. What is it like now? Thanks Emma well exactly the earlier sector came into the pandemic already financially struggling due to years of government

underfunding and then when lockdown one happened and they were asked to close to all but vulnerable children and key worker children obviously demand plummeted that took place over the summer term where occupancy is usually highest and a lot of providers make their most profit they weren't able to fundraise as they normally would they weren't able to market for the autumn term when they lose a lot of older children to schools and then even when the sector was allowed to reopen in June obviously demand was a lot lower you had parents with concerns about the safety of attending earlier settings you had parents who were on furlough who were unemployed who no longer needed the child care and early education or could no longer afford it and that

demand has simply not returned and the government has throughout this pandemic really relied on the early year sector you know at the moment years providers are open to all families, schools and colleges are not. And yet the sector has not been given the support in line with the level of reliance that government has put on them. Can I say on that, the government says extra funding has been put in. The sector, as you mentioned, having access, well, you mentioned it, sorry, with regards to the parents, but the sector has access to the furlough scheme.

Surely that has helped. I think the issue with the government is that they equate some support with enough support. Yes, the government has put in some support. It's not enough. So, for example, with the furlough scheme, the way that ratios work in settings means that the number of staff you have doesn't follow the number of children exactly so if I could just give a quick example ratios in nurseries and preschools if you have two year olds it's one adult to four two year olds so if you had eight two year olds in a room you would need minimum two adults if three of those two year olds left one because their parent became unemployed one because their parent was put on

furlough one because their parent uh didn't need child care anymore they didn't think it was uh safe you would have five two-year-olds you would still need those two members of staff you couldn't furlough anyone so you've lost nearly half your income but you couldn't furlough any of those members of staff so furlough is of some support to some settings when they can use it if their demand allows it but it does not fill the gap. It doesn't make up for the cost of cleaning supplies and PPE that government does not support with. And the IFS put out a report last year, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, excuse me, saying that, yes, the government has provided some additional funding and yes, the sector has access to furlough.

But even with that falls in demand alongside fixed costs like rents and mortgages and other things that do not shift mean that the government support is not enough. It's not going far enough. And we'll get a picture from Stephanie on the ground in just a moment. Are you able to say how many nurseries and childminders will not make it onto the other side of the pandemic? Are those figures, even an estimate, roughly available yet? Well, we conducted a joint survey of an independent sector researcher called CEDA and looking at the outlook for the sector and 51% of nurseries and preschools expect to run a loss to the end of spring term and one third of childminders. We previously had figures of around one in four saying they weren't sure

if they would make it to the end of the pandemic, whenever that should be. One in four? Wow. Yes. I mean, because the other side of this, which we're getting from our listeners, from all of you listening, wherever you are, is if they aren't there, they can't necessarily go back to work you know they can't go and do whatever they were doing before obviously the way we're all working and the way everything is at the moment is very different for a lot of us but for some of us

it's exactly the same and they need the support that they had always counted on when they decided to have children let's get that view on the ground from stephanie who who perhaps can tell us about the situation where you are with your preschool and extra costs and pressure at the moment stephanie who who perhaps can tell us about the situation where you are with your preschool and and extra costs and pressure at the moment stephanie hi hi yeah um i totally agree with shannon everything she said is absolutely correct we were underfunded to start with um and we've struggled now the government did match our funding in the autumn term, but it is the lowest term in terms of income anyway, and spring and summer are so important. Now, I'm 20% down on the numbers of children I've got from spring in last year, which is a massive impact to us. The furlough scheme has helped, but it's not enough because we've got limited access to it.

The government have assumed that the furlough scheme is enough to cover everything. It only covers a limited amount of wages and we've got other costs. I've spent over £1,000 on PPE in the autumn term, bought portable sinks, hand gel, hand sanitizer, hand towels, all of that kind of stuff, PPE for staff, visors, masks. Staff are coming in earlier and staying later because we have a lot more cleaning. We're a pack-away setting as well, so that's difficult. And I've also, you know, you've got staff that are shielding that I have to pay, even though they're nodding, because I've got no choice but to pay her.

And there's no work that can be done at home. They're scared as well because there's no social distancing, obviously, from young children. So there's a lot of factors in here. I've had to split my nursery into two to try and mitigate the risks as well of closing down. We usually run in one room, I'm running in two, which as Sian said, that's actually made me have to have another member of staff full time because it just doesn't work. The ratios don't work in the way, you can't just say, oh, there's eight

children that fund one member of staff. They just don't. You've always got to have people around for lunches, breaks. I mean, you sound like you're doing everything you can with the circumstances and all the extra costs associated with that. How stressful is it to try and stay afloat at the moment? It's a lot harder. It's hard anyway, but it's a lot harder than normal How stressful is it to try and stay afloat at the moment? It's a lot harder. It's hard anyway, but it's a lot harder than normal because you're constantly looking at staffing, who's around.

The cost of the PPE, it's amazing. A box of gloves cost £2 this time last year. I'm paying nearly £9 now. And what we're doing is we're having to ration stuff, divert funds towards PPE instead of resources. And my staff are doing great. You know, we're being really creative and finding ways to do stuff.

But it is very stressful. But, you know, the summer term will be crucial for us. Do you feel, and I've got a statement from the government that I'll share in just a moment from the Department for Education, but do you feel that this part of education has been given the priority it deserves by this government? No, because we've had no choice but to go back after Christmas, which is difficult in itself, as we've had no choice but to go back after Christmas,

which is difficult in itself, as I've said, for all of the risks around COVID and the stresses and strains on the staff's mental health. But there's been no extra money for PPE, as there has been with schools. And I'm not disputing that the school should have had that money. That's absolutely right. No, no, no. And I'm not trying point. We should too. I wasn't going to say I'm not trying to pick

one bit of schooling against the other, but I suppose if I could just put it to Shannon as well, that question. Do you think, because obviously you can look at Childbinders and the work that Stephanie's doing and all the efforts going in there. You can look at it as childcare, but it's also education, isn't it?

It's so critical. And I think Stephanie puts it very politely. I don't think I'd necessarily be as polite as her. I don't think the government's treated the sector at all as it should be treated. I've worked in the early years alliance for eight years, so I'm a relative newbie sector-wide. I've never been prouder of the early years sector

and I've never been more furious at the way that the sector's been treated by the government. We did, you talked to Emma about mental health impact and anxiety, we conducted a mental health survey. 87% of the nearly 3,000 providers that responded said they did not feel that the government had adequately appreciated them during the pandemic. 70% had anxiety, one in five were looking at leaving the sector we are always the last to be mentioned if you're talking about education we're talking about testing lateral flow tests we don't have any in the pvi sector in early years we've had all these discussions that teachers must have covid vaccinations if they're able to open we safely early as providers

are already open and where are those discussions about our sector well we we will get we are already getting i'm gonna have to leave it there shannon we're already getting a lot of response in thank you very much for talking to us shannon pike their public affairs director for the early years alliance and stephanie carlis who's running a preschool giving us an insight into what it's like on the ground a department for education spokesperson said we know early years professionals are working hard to deliver crucial care and education to our youngest children,

which cannot be done remotely. We're working closely with the sector to ensure timely guidance and support. Current evidence supports suggest that preschool children under the age of five are less susceptible to infection and likely to play a driving role in transmission. We're funding nurseries as usual.

All children are able to attend their early years setting in all parts of England where nurseries do see a drop in income from either parent paid fees or income from Department of Education or for education. We are able to use the they are able rather to use the furlough scheme and working parents remain eligible for childcare support even if their income levels fall below the minimum threshold for 30 hours free childcare and tax freefree childcare. How do you fit into that? Keep getting in touch with us, 84844 on the text messages. Just time though to talk to a woman who's perhaps set herself one of the most ambitious targets. It didn't start

during lockdown, but she's carrying on during lockdown doing it. She wants to recreate and is very much on her way to doing so, recreating the Bayer tapestry in its entirety. Nearly a thousand years after the tapestry was created, which depicts events leading up to the Battle of Hastings, Mia Hansen on her own is trying to recreate it from, well, where do you do it from, Mia? Your living room, your bedroom? Tell us. Good morning. I do it mainly from the living room, watching telly. And why did you start this epic voyage and when did it start? I started, well, I got the idea about five years ago and then it took approximately six months to get everything ready.

And I began, I took the first stitch in July 2016. Wow. OK. We got this message very early on. I don't know if you heard from Denise saying, I hope you're going to mention the full-scale Victorian replica on permanent display in Reading Museum. Have you taken inspiration from others who've done bits of this or tried to do it before? Well, yes, because I was contacted by someone

who told me he had done a half scale version and that's what triggered me to do it because i've got i'm quite competitive so when he said he's done half scale and i thought well he can do it i can do it too but i kind of don't do things by half so i thought if if I'm going to do it, I need to do it full scale. So that's what I did. I love that your response to that was, oh, OK, I've got to do the whole thing now. My response would have been, well done. And I hope that was fun for you.

But very, very good on you for taking this on and being competitive. Can you give us a sense of what you're having to do and how you're doing it? There is a lot of preparation work. It's not just the embroidery, obviously. I need to draw the patterns first. And I don't know how many times I've had a question, I'd like to do that, do a bit of it. Where did you get the kit? And I said, I don't have a kit I bought 40 meters of fabric of linen that I wash in sections and cut in half and then I stitch them so I get a long narrow piece and then I draw one bit at a time and of course it needs to be drawn with pencil very carefully to be to scale. So at the moment I'm using a calculator and a ruler to get the size right because I've stopped using templates.

I no longer need them. And is it with you, the tapestry? I know we're on radio here, but I've got the joy of you actually being at home on Zoom so I can see. But you've got a bit of it with you or on your lap. And we'll share this clip on our website or on social media afterwards. There you go. A little bit. I finished recently, which is this. Can you see that?

I can see it. But could you describe it for our listeners? It's beautiful. Yes, this is Harold's coronation. And I actually managed to get him dressed. And when I say that, I mean that I had him filled in because I'd only done the outlines. So I had him filled in and dressed for his nine hundred and fifty fifth anniversary of the actual coronation, which was pretty neat. So just to clarify, you didn't have a naked Harold? No, I couldn't have him naked. Well, I didn't know how precise you were with people. Did you draw them naked? Then you embroider over and you put the clothes on. I mean, that would be dedication. But that is superb. We will share some more of that, as I say, on our website so people could see this afterwards.

What I can show you. Go on. I can show you the next bit that I'm working on so you will see I don't draw naked people. This is what it looks like. Ah, yes, so you've got the outline in pencil of a group of men here and then you sew over the outline. Yes. Yes, well, it's very, very lovely to see the workings.

What do you do with your life? Do you work? When do you do this? How does it fit in? I'm a full-time carer for my disabled stepson. So I gave up work about 10 years ago to look after him full-time. And that gives me a lot of time on my hands because he's pretty much self-sufficient during the day.

Obviously, I need to do the basics, but, you know, he plays, he sleeps and I sit there twiddling my thumbs. So I thought I need something that I can't finish in a hurry. And does he take an interest? Does he look at what you're doing? No, not at all. No, he plays no he plays with his his toys and and cuddle the dogs and stuff so I tend to have the radio or some crime documentaries on because I can't watch a movie as such because I need to have sometimes both eyes on what I do yes um half an eye on the telly and then I can listen so if it's a documentary I can just listen toy and then I can listen. So if it's a documentary, I can just listen to that and then I can stitch.

Well, I mean, bravo to you. You know, sometimes I give myself a project and I hope it will last an hour, maybe two. I don't know if it's to clean out a particular cupboard or, you know, finally deal with the spice rack or whatever it is, but it's over quite quickly. Maybe that's the way I choose these things and I'm not very ambitious for myself in my downtime.

I'm in awe of what you're doing. What are you going to do with the finished product? To start with, I thought definitely if I can, I'd sell it. But the problem with that is that at the moment, well, not during the corona crisis, of course, but before I was taking it out for talks and display. Either to private groups or to the general public, I rent a venue. But you see, if I sell it, I can't do that.

And I really, really enjoy doing that. So I don't know. I've got another five, six years to think about it. Well, thank you so much for talking to us. Maybe we'll talk again within the next five or six years to see how you're getting along. We're sorry to have broken into your sewing or sketching time, but it's absolutely fascinating to talk to you. All the best to you. All the best to your stepson as well.

Thank you very much. Thank you for talking to us. Mia there, Mia Hanson, who's trying to do this all alone. Of course, the original was done by a group of craftswomen. And of course, other replicas have happened since. A message is actually coming in around our first discussion around the ultra-Orthodox and the issue of forced marriage. Just to say an anonymous one here. Thank you for tackling the thorny issue of forced marriage within the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community. Listening to this as an Orthodox Jew, it has to be admitted

there's a quantity of grooming in place. So the question is how much grooming is deemed to be forced marriage. Grooming will vary in proportion to the amount of exposure the family has to secular culture and many religious people who are otherwise wonderful and an example to others of decency and who are in denial about this. I prefer to remain anonymous about this, but suffice to say I'm a 70-year-old man

who is active within the Orthodox Jewish community in North Manchester. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Zand van Tulleken. And I'm Kimberley Wilson. And just before you go,

we wanted to quickly tell you about our podcast, made of stronger stuff from bbc radio 4 i'm a psychologist and zand is a medical doctor and we're bringing together our specialties to take a tour of the human body each week we hone in on a specific body part from the eyes and lungs to the appendix or the vagus nerve we ask how we can understand it better, ourselves more, and combine the body and mind to produce positive change. So subscribe to Made of Stronger Stuff on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.