Woman's Hour - Can sex offenders change? Oestrogen and Covid; Childless older women

Episode Date: August 18, 2020

Becky’s father was convicted of sex offences against children and sent to prison. He has since been released but while in prison he undertook a sex offender rehabilitation programme. For a BBC documentary Can Sex Offenders Change? Becky meets a growing number of sex offenders who have not been sent to prison, and have received treatment in the community. She tries to understand what drove them to commit these horrific crimes, whilst seeing what treatment is available to stop them committing any more. She joins Jane to discuss along with Professor Belinda Winder, Research Director Centre for Crime Offending, Prevention and Engagement at Nottingham Trent University and a co-founder of the charity Safer Living Foundation. Scientists across the world are keen to find out if the female hormone oestrogen could offer protection against the worst symptoms of Covid-19. Data gathered from the Zoe Covid app created with Kings College London seems to suggest that younger women are at lower risk of developing symptoms but hormone replacement therapy taken by menopausal women doesn’t offer the same protection. We hear from menopause expert Dr Louise Newson who’s one of the co-authors of the new study. The Office for National Statistics has estimated that the number of women who get to 80 without children will almost triple in the next 25 years. As a result demand for paid care in nursing homes is expected to increase sharply. Why is the focus on childless women and not men, and how is the data being reported in the media? Jody Day is a psychotherapist, author and founder of Gateway Women, a global organisation for women who are involuntarily childless. Women in comedy are calling for a sexual harassment protocol after what they say are 'decades of abuse'. Stand-up comedian, writer and satirist Kiri Pritchard-Mclean and comedian and writer Nina Milligan join Jane to explain why they want clubs to adopt a kite mark-style system, rather than having to rely on whisper networks in the industry. Presented by Jane Garvey Produced by Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, this is Jane Garvey, and it's the Woman's Hour podcast, Tuesday the 18th of August 2020. Hello. On the programme today, COVID and oestrogen. Does oestrogen protect women? This is a study that's been ongoing and the contributor you'll hear from today, Louise Newsome, has been on the programme before. What has she found out since her last appearance back in May? Also today, sexual harassment on the comedy circuit, something we'll talk about a little bit later. Also in the programme, you might have heard on the BBC news bulletins of yesterday or seen in the newspapers today, headlines like this, Childless Baby Boomer Women to Bring Rise in Social Care Costs.

That's the telegraph version version in the mail today. The childless generation, care time bomb of the 60s women who chose not to become mothers. How do we cover this story? Why do we cover it in such a way? And is there any such thing as a childless man? Apparently not. Something we'll discuss a little later in the programme this morning. First, though, can sex offenders change? It's a big question. It's a hugely important one. Becky has made a documentary for the BBC called Can Sex Offenders Change? She has spoken to three sex offenders who didn't go to prison, but have had treatment in the community. I'll talk to Becky in a moment and

also to Professor Belinda Winder, a research director at the Centre for Crime Offending Prevention and Engagement at Nottingham Trent University and the co-founder of a charity called the Safer Living Foundation. Becky, first of all, Becky, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Thank you for having me. It's really going to be very interesting indeed to hear from you. Tell us why you feel so committed to a programme like this. Why have you made it? Well, quite well, not so simply. My dad was sent to prison for sex offences against children and he served 10 years and I was, you know, part of his sentence.

And I never thought about the prospect of him actually being released. And, you know, is he safe to be out? And from that, I thought, gosh, how many others are like him? And what about the people that don't even go to prison? And I suppose that was kind of the premise for the film, really. Should we be grateful, were you grateful, to the men who were willing to take part as contributors? I think it's a massive risk for them to take part and it was definitely hard to get people to talk to us because, you know, once you're labelled as a sex offender, people are angry and, you know, they get a lot of violence

and they are scared for what people may do to them if they speak, especially to the press. So I think there is an element of that. But I also think that we kind of deserve to understand why these people offend. Yes. And the men who did agree to take part, did they know your story, your background? They did. Yeah, we were very honest. And I was very honest in every conversation that I had with them, my, you know, motive, if you like, for making this film. Did you feel safe being with them? On some occasions you were filmed in a car or in quite remote locations.

Obviously the film crew were with you, but how did all that feel to you? I'd be lying if I said that it wasn't scary. You know, I didn't always feel safe, but I don't think that's necessarily because of the individual I was speaking to. think again it's my you know preconceptions of what these people are like and are capable of and lack of knowledge really did invite some fear. Three different men appear in the programme their appearances are disguised their real voices are not used, their real names don't feature either.

What do you make of them, honestly? I mean, great question. I think they were very defensive. I think they all had some personal issues that were deep rooted and they really do need help for, generally speaking. But I think they were really defensive because, you know, I am a victim of abuse. I think that in itself makes them really quick to defend why they did it. They didn't mean to hurt anybody. They didn't know that they were victims on real people that were being harmed. So I think there was an element of not sympathy, but I did feel sorry for them in a way. What kind of offences had these men committed?

And just to emphasise, they did not go to prison. They were being treated in the community. Yeah, so the men that we spoke to, we class them as non-contact offences. It means that, you know, there are real victims and, you know, real children that are being harmed. But it was a non-contact or an online offence. And at least one of the men attempts to blame the fact that he had been abused himself. Just explain what happens there. So, yeah, Andrew, you know, Andrew claims that he was abused himself.

And that's the reason that his mind has developed this attraction towards children. And then it tries to almost justify this idea of the abused becomes the abuser that I actually struggle with quite a lot in the film because, of course, many people that are abused then don't go on to abuse other people. And I just could not comprehend why, if you've been hurt like that, you would ever want anybody else to feel that way.

And something else that crops up in what I should say is a really interesting documentary is the notion that they have progressed, and I use that term advisedly, from viewing legal porn, perhaps addictively, to looking at clearly indecent images of children being abused. What do you think about that? Again, it's something that I really, really struggled with and tried, almost got defensive in that they were using that as an excuse, if you would, at first, because I don't understand if you didn't want to do those things things why would you take enjoyment in looking at somebody else doing it um and and also if you know they just they say that there was no desire

there were no was no attraction there um it was just an escalation of porn but I don't understand if you didn't have that desire in the first place how you would get to that point, how you could even look at an image like that. And, yeah, I just really, really struggled with that. But, you know, when I did speak to professionals, they said, yeah, you know, this is to do with isolation. This actually happens and it happens more than we think. I just want to play a clip from the programme. This is one of the men who features.

He's called Kyle. That's not his real name. He first viewed images at 13. He was arrested at 19. He's now 22. Here he is talking on this documentary about the impact his treatment has had on him. For you, was it an attraction to children or was it kind of describe that to me? So I didn't really understand at the time myself much either, but going through the rehabilitation programmes, they helped to get you to understand. And I worked out that it was because I was so isolated, I was feeling very depressed, I'd gone through quite a bit.

So I was then using imagery and harmful sexual thoughts, that kind of thing, to make myself feel good at the time. So it's not an attraction to children that you have? No, it was just that build-up, because the original stuff that I was looking at wasn't effective anymore, so I then moved on to the next step and moved on to something slightly worse and something slightly worse until it reached that point,

because that was what was giving me the adrenaline rush at the time. Did it ever occur to you that that should I be looking at this? I knew it was wrong but when you're in that moment you don't think rationally. Well Professor Belinda Winder you have treated Kyle, not his real name just to emphasise, that attempt at an explanation. What do you think of it? Is that quite common? Yes, it is. I mean, people commit sexual offences for a range of reasons, and these include problematic childhood, bullying, physical, sexual, emotional abuse, use of sex as an unhealthy coping strategy for when life is tough, things go wrong,

feelings of loneliness, isolation, feelings of inadequacy or powerlessness, not feeling close to others, and the use of normal pornography that becomes more extreme and further down the route to illegal and child abuse images. I mean, this is all unknown and understood in terms of the arena. And certainly it's when people are emotionally numb and pushing themselves for a reaction and become just isolated from what is right, what is logical, what is rational. And I should say that all of those explanations I've given for how people might end up committing sexual offences, none of them excuse people's behaviour. We're real responsible for our own behaviour, but they perhaps help to start explaining why people have ended up

committing an offence. So when you hear that clip of Kyle, he is one of the people you have helped in your organisation. Is he close to acknowledging his own behaviour and close to understanding how he came to commit the offence? In other words, is he someone who might be changed by treatment? Yes. I mean, we want people to be aware of what led them were the kind of precursors to this, this isolation, inadequacy, not being able to talk to others, all of these. We need to know what to work on to help them build a positive and pro-social life going forward. And I guess I would say that perhaps about 86% of people who have been convicted of a sexual offence

won't go on to commit another sexual offence. So we are probably, when you look at the tabloids and we hear all these horrific stories, and there is nothing like a sexual offence to create such a tsunami of tragedy around people. But at the same time, so many people also understand what they've done and will seek support and help to make sure they don't commit another offence. But it's precisely because they've been convicted that they're less likely to commit another offence because they're being monitored all the time.

Their lives have been totally changed by their conviction. Yes, it's partly because they are being monitored, but it's also very much about people having to face themselves and having to come to terms with the fact that they have done this damage and they've committed an offence. So I would say about 85% of the people I meet in prison are just as disgusted with themselves as the rest of the population are so it is it is about uh some of it's about the supervision and monitoring but it's also about people understanding how what a dreadful mistake uh they have made and uh and it might be a series of mistakes because until uh someone is convicted they don't have to come to terms with what they've done.

The programme is called, very simply, Can Sex Offenders Change? Belinda, many of our listeners will be desperate to hear that the answer to that question is yes, but you seem to be saying that in the right circumstances, with the right attitude and the right treatment, the answer is indeed yes. Absolutely it is. But what we need to do, and I guess it's really important to emphasise, is what we need to do is to get to people before they commit that first offence. 80% of sexual offences are committed by someone with no previous convictions,

sexual or otherwise, and it is really important. And certainly the Charity Safe for Living Foundation and other charities work towards preventing a first offence as well, because we don't want to get to a point where there's so much damage done to victims, their family, friends, and to the partners and the child and parent of people who have committed an offence who become the secondary victims as well. So we can do a lot to support people who have committed an offence, but we certainly should also be doing a lot more to prevent those first offences. Very briefly if you can

I think it's just important to emphasise you can indeed self-refer to an organisation like your own. You certainly can. So the Safe Living Foundation we work across East Midlands. You can self-refer whether you've committed an offence or not. We have projects, prevention projects we have projects to help people

who have already committed an offence. Our services are all free. And we would encourage people to look at organisations like ours or Talks to Lucy's Faithful or there are other organisations such as Circle South West, Circle South East that also run similar services. And so get help before you commit an offence. And if you are concerned that somebody close to you might be thinking of committing an offence of this nature what are the signs that you need to watch for and it's so it must be so so impossible in this situation the desire just to run away from the whole thing and forget it. But you're saying, actually, Belinda, you do need to confront it and you will be heard. Absolutely need to confront it. And I guess one of the, you know, it's difficult because people are very good at hiding

what they don't want other people to see. But I would say, for me, one of the things would be if someone's getting obsessed with pornography, shutting themselves away, they're not communicating anymore to their partner and they seem to be just shut up in their little office looking at pornography. That's, for me, one of the danger signs

or a kind of sexual preoccupation and that's when you're sexualising everything or just can't seem to get enough sex or enough sexual outlets. This implies that they should be talking to their, potentially to their GP or to services like ours and others around the country about this kind of problematic sexual behaviour, which may, for some people, lead to an offence. Thank you very much for your input this morning, Professor Belinda Winder.

And Becky, making this programme clearly cannot have been easy for you. Are you all right now? I mean, I am OK now, yeah. And, you know, I was really lucky. I had a great team. We were a very small team, but a great team around me. You know, the director, Dan Harrison, and the exec, Fran Baker, were absolutely instrumental in supporting me

making this programme um and you know should I have needed it there was psychological support available um because it's not an easy thing to talk about it is uncomfortable um but we absolutely should be having this conversation yeah okay um well it's been really really interesting to talk to you this morning and I wish you the very, very best. Thank you very much, Becky. And that programme is on BBC Three. It'll be available on BBC Three this Thursday and you can actually also see it on BBC One on Thursday night. I think it's on at 10.45 on Thursday, BBC One. Now, we do know that more men than women are dying of COVID-19. And earlier in the pandemic, there was a lot of thought that oestrogen might be protecting women from the very worst of COVID-19.

Data gathered from the King's College London Zoe COVID Symptoms app seems to suggest that younger women are indeed at lower risk of developing symptoms of COVID. But HRT taken by menopausal women does not appear to offer the same protection. Let's have a quick word with the menopause specialist and GP, Dr Louise Newson, one of the co-authors of the new study. Louise, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. So what do we now know that we didn't when we last talked to you back in May? Well, it's very interesting. So we've been looking at Tim Spector's data, like you say, and this is looking at predictive COVID. So this isn't proven COVID. And it did show that women who were menopausal were more likely to have more severe symptoms related to predicted COVID.

And also, interestingly, women who take the contraceptive pill have a lower risk of a hospital admission as well as predicted COVID-19 and we've known for a while that there are less deaths in women as you quite rightly say but especially women who are younger who are pregnant and who take hormones and women who are pregnant have very high levels of oestrogen. Since this work we have been applying for funding to do more research and we've been turned down. And this is a whole issue with discrimination against research into women's health. But I've been working with a national consortium of leading academics from Liverpool University and other leading institutions. And we've been looking at the ISERIC data. So this is hospital admission data for people who have had proven tested positive COVID infections. And we've been

looking at outcomes. And I was talking to Professor Ewan Harrison from University of Edinburgh last night. And it's very interesting. So it does show that women taking HRT compared to women not taking HRT, who have been matched for both age and medical conditions, have a statistically significant lower risk of death from COVID. So this does show that HRT does actually reduce death from COVID. Yeah, I mean, forgive me, you are, and I don't think you certainly wouldn't deny this, you are a noted fan of HRT, aren't you? Absolutely, but I'm also a noted fan of practicing evidence-based medicine and there's an overwhelming amount of research that shows that oestrogen has a very positive effect

on immune cells, on their function, on their genetic programming, on the way they work. But forgive me, I mean this most recent data appears to show quite categorically that HRT taken by menopausal women doesn't offer the same protection as natural oestrogen, which already obviously younger women and certainly pregnant women have already. No, I think you've misinterpreted, Jane. Actually, the data does show that there is a protection in women taking HRT who are admitted to hospital with proven COVID. They are less likely to die if they take HRT. Let's get this absolutely straight then hrt is

is not as good as the natural oestrogen in younger women in terms of preventing the worst effects of covid but it's better than nothing no no that's absolutely not true at all so we need to do more work but certainly oestrogen in women whether it's because they have regular periods or whether they have the contraceptive pill or whether they take HRT because you're replacing that oestrogen in postmenopausal women, all these women have lower risks of death from COVID, which is proven by the ISARIC for COVID data. We're talking about this study though, aren't we, in this COVID app study. Let's talk, go on. So the COVID app study was done to try and aid the speculation

that oestrogen has a positive effect on immunity with respect to COVID. This was not looking at proven tested cases, it's predicted COVID. So looking at symptoms, the actual ISARIC data, which I've just alluded to, is looking at hospital admission data for people with proven COVID infections and looking at mortality. So it's looking at death rates from COVID. And we can see that women taking HRT, which contains oestrogen, have a lower risk of death compared to women who do not take HRT, who are matched for the same age, for the same comorbidities as well. Go on. And we also know that women taking HRT who were admitted to hospital were healthier.

They were less likely to have heart disease and diabetes. Yeah, but I mean, isn't it probably more likely that healthier women were taking HRT in the first place? No, not at all. So when you compare with like women, so it's really important in studies that you compare like with like so of course you couldn't compare someone who was completely fit and well taking HRT to someone who was ill in hospital but this is comparing like admissions so people who were patients with tested COVID positive who were taking HRT to women tested positive for COVID who were not taking HRT. And the women taking HRT were less likely to die.

A question here from a listener who says, can you ask what this means for those of us on tamoxifen? Can you answer that? Yeah, and so certainly we want to just explain what that is, by the way. So tamoxifen is called a selective oestrogen receptor modulator. So it blocks some effect of oestrogen. But there are other drugs such effect of oestrogen but there are other drugs such as aromatase inhibitor these are drugs used usually for women who've had an oestrogen receptor positive breast cancer so they block the effect of oestrogen and it is a concern because if oestrogen is so beneficial what about these women who are having oestrogen receptor blocking

drugs and certainly this is something we we wrote a grant proposal for to get funding to look at because it's really important that all women are included when we're considering COVID and women. But like I say, we were unsuccessful in securing funding with the NHRA because they didn't see it as a priority, despite it being a women's health problem. And it is a public health problem. You know, women are in the front line. They're working as nurses and doctors. They're working in shops and teachers. Of all programmes, we are well aware of that. And our listeners, I've said it before, I'll say it again, are the backbone of the nation. I think it's very important, too, that we talk about long Covid.

Now, potentially some bad news for women here. Just explain what long Covid is. So long Covid is really people who have symptoms following having COVID infections that haven't improved. So there's many women and I've recently been connecting with around 15,000 women in a Facebook group who are UK based but also worldwide based who have this long COVID. So they have symptoms, but these are symptoms such as dizziness, tiredness, fatigue, joint pains, muscle aches, headaches, and they've been diagnosed as long COVID. But actually, what's very interesting is that when you talk to a lot of these women, their symptoms are worsening before their periods, or some of them, their periods have stopped.

And as you know, a lot of these symptoms are actually menopausal symptoms. So what we're trying to do is with my app that I've developed called Balance it's a free menopause app they're going to track their symptoms with response to their periods as well because a lot of these women I'm sure will improve by having some oestrogen. Can I just be forgive me again I'm slightly confused are we suggesting that although fewer women die of COVID-19, more women, particularly older ones, may suffer for longer? We don't know. So we don't know whether these symptoms are directly due to COVID or due to effects. So we know that anyone who has an infection, especially a severe infection, it will affect their periods and their hormones. So these women are likely to have lower hormone levels, therefore more likely to have symptoms, which may not be directly due to long COVID. It may be due to their perimenopause or menopause. And it's essential we find out because obviously the treatment is very different.

Thank you. That's Dr. Louise Newsome. Of course, you can contact Women's Hour whenever you like on social media, as a couple of you did there with that Tamoxifen point. By the way, we really do welcome this. It's at BBC Women's Hour. If I'm talking about something and you think I'm talking rubbish, which wouldn't be that surprising, or there's a question you're desperate for me to ask, just ping me a tweet. I can see it. I can see your tweets. And they're often extremely helpful at BBC Women's Hour whenever you want to get involved.

You and yours are doing a phone in, of course, because it's Tuesday. Today it's about the high street. How is your high street coping at the moment? Has the pandemic changed your business? The line's open just after 11 and the programme itself starts about a quarter past 12 today here on Radio 4. Now, let's talk about something that was widely reported yesterday.

I certainly heard it on the news yesterday, and it's in all the papers today. The Office for National Statistics has estimated the number of women who get to 80 without children will almost triple in the next 25 years. And as a result, demand for paid care in nursing homes is expected to increase sharply. Those are the facts. It's the way that this story is reported that I think irks quite a few women. Headlines like the one in The Telegraph today, Childless Baby Boomer Women to Bring Rise in Social Care Costs. Let's bring in Jodie Day, who's been on the programme before.

She's a psychotherapist, an author, and the founder of Gateway Women, which is a global organisation for women who are involuntarily childless. Jodie, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. I don't think anybody's got a beef with the Office for National Statistics. This is their job to report the way our lives are changing and evolving. But what angers you, Jodie, about the way the story is then reported? Well, just to backtrack for a moment, I do have a beef with the ONS.

You do? OK. Because it doesn't collect the data for men on weather and how many children they have. It only collects that data on women. But you can't, can you? I think that's part of the problem. Well, the practical implication, it's difficult. Some some men are fathers but don't know they are and some people think they're fathers but they're not i still think the question is worth asking in the census do you okay rather rather than just not asking it at all yeah um

because i think it leads to these kinds of you know it supports these kinds of sexist opinions that somehow childlessness is exclusive a female issue. And when you put that point to the ONS what do they say? I haven't put it to them personally but I know other people have and I would say in inverted commas under consideration. Right so there's a chance that might change. Yes and Robin Hadley who's the sort of leading voice for childless men in the UK, is certainly, you know, on the case. So how would it help if we did know how many men were also so-called childless? And I don't like the expression childless because it carries a weight and it sounds terribly judgmental.

But how would it help if you knew how many men were in that situation? Well, meta-analysis would show they're actually either the same or slightly more childless men in that generation, the sort of 1960s generation. And also other research would show that actually the outcomes for elderly childless men, particularly those that are also single, are considerably worse than for elderly childless women, because they, you know, they often don't have the social networks that women have. So I think, you know, for men's health, it's really important that they're included. When we think of things like this. It's not my remit, I support childless women, but you know, I know and love childless men too. Yes, to read the newspaper

coverage in particular, you would think that it is women's sole responsibility, that there is going to be a greater need for care home places. There's almost no mention at all of men in that situation. It does. It also, you know, imagines that the, you know, the rise in life expectancy that this generation has seen is has solely gone to women which is absolutely not the case there will be many men needing you know needing care as well and i think also one of the way this is framed is it sort of immediately moves it to this idea in people's mind that this is about you know really dependent care really intimate care when in actual fact a lot lot of the informal care that elderly people without children need is the same as those with children. It's help fixing the skybox when it goes

on the blink. It's sorting out online banking. It's all those things that make the admin of modern living. Those are the things also that people need help with in order to remain independent in later life. It's not just help feeding and washing. It's also really important to emphasise that you don't have children, if you're fortunate enough to have had them and to have wanted them, in order to guarantee care in old age. That isn't a reason to have children. It isn't, and I don't know anyone who thinks like that. And certainly in those years that I was trying to conceive,

and it didn't work out for me that was never a thought I had however when you realize that you won't be having children either by choice which is only 10% of women or you know for many other reasons usually the next thought that comes to mind is oh my goodness who's going to be there for me when I'm old so we do as childless and child-free women, do start thinking about this issue earlier. But when parents say to us, you know, I don't want my children to take care of me, so somehow that's going to matter. And it's like, well, that doesn't mean they're not going to. You know, 92% of informal care is provided by children. So regardless of whether you want it or not, unless the social care system changes,

that is what will be happening. Yes, of course, we need to emphasise that many children don't care for their parents, do little or nothing for them in their old age. It's a much smaller amount. That's a sort of comforting thought that often gets trotted out, rather an uncomforting thought. Statistics don't bear that out right so in fact children would say only four percent of children aren't involved but well i mean there are degrees of involvement jody aren't there indeed well i mean also if you know one of the reasons you might need support um as if you're aging without children which doesn't just mean that you don't have children your children might have adult care needs of their own. They might live on the other side of the world. I mean, that's why AWOC, Aging Well Without Children,

is such an important organisation, because there are many ways you can need support in later life, not just not having children. You know, your children may have pre-deceased you. There can be so, or be estranged. There can be so many reasons. All of them need to be taken into account. And I think if we address this issue, it will actually make ageing easier for all of us, whether we have children or not. Because as you said, if you have children, you don't want them to have to deal with this. Here's a listener who says, I'm child free by choice. I'm 44. If I need social care in 40 years time, I'll be looked after by the same carers that look after the people whose children don't care for them at home, as is the case now. Making a similar point to me, I suppose, that many of us live hundreds of miles away from our elderly parents and we do what we can.

Do you sense a change? I thought perhaps we were changing, Jodie, in our approach. But then when these statistics come out every year, they do seem to be reported in the same way year on year. I think there is a very slight change, but it needs to get much bigger. I think perhaps COVID really highlighting the vulnerability of some elderly people living on their own has brought to bear on this issue a little but I mean AWOC it was couldn't get any funding as an organization there is a desire to turn a blind eye to this in our culture because nobody really wants to think about the vulnerabilities of aging and if you add ageism and sexism and pronatalism together you just develop such a huge huge blind spot no one really wants to think about the realities of this often until it's too late and i think

that's what this generation you know they're calling us the baby boomers i think the baby boom ended in 65 the year after me so it's kind of actually us generation x's um we kind of need to come together and think of solutions and advocate for ourselves to make sure that in 20 years time, the care we need is there. I really always enjoy hearing from you, Jodie. I think you speak very powerfully. And I know you speak for a big number of our listeners, actually, who are very grateful to you as well. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks so much, Jane. That is Jodie Day. Gateway Women is the name of her organisation. Aging Without Women, AWOC, Thanks so much, Jane. bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. And we'll read out some of your emails in the Woman's Hour podcast available later.

Now, women in British comedy want a sexual harassment protocol after what some are calling decades of abuse in the entertainment, or in this part of the entertainment industry. Let's talk to comedians and writers Kiri Pritchard-McLean and Nina Gilligan. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Can I just start with you, Kiri, if you don't mind. Why the campaign now?

Well, I think it's long overdue, but there's been a recent resurgence in the conversation around Me Too in comedy. It started in wrestling and then led over to comedy. So I think just uh kind of everything going off again has galvanized us into acting and deciding that we can just keep talking about it or we can try and proactively change it and because culturally it's not corrected itself so I think that it's it's down to us to try and fix it. Can you just tell us a little bit about your career Kiri and where you work and how you

work? So I've been gigging since about 2010 and I've been a full-time comic since about 2015 so much of that is gigging sort of three to seven nights a week up and down the country and a lot of time you're you know you just email someone and you get booked for a gig in a pub or a club and you walk in there and you don't really know anything about the people that you'll be working with or for and so it is it's very easy to see how it's unregulated it's lots of individuals acting and you can't always um trust people to sort of um act in good faith and especially there's a there's a power dynamic which allows abuse to thrive, especially when you're a newer act because you're desperate for stage time.

So, you know, and also you don't really know the system and how it works. So you're quite easily manipulated if, you know, if people are that way inclined. I like to say that this isn't like every gig is dangerous and unsafe. And I'd like to make that clear. No, well. But it can happen right okay Nina Nina Gilligan um the power dynamic how has that impacted you um yeah I started in comedy around 2011 I came to comedy after quite late really I

was 40 and I had previously worked in the probation service so I considered myself quite smart quite street smart I went in and I was targeted I could say in retrospect by a man that was trying to help me in my career. And I became a victim of a sexual assault when he'd booked me for a gig. I think the power differential or the power dynamic that you're talking about is that I had immediately trusted him. Or been obliged to trust him, I guess, in the circumstances. Yeah, been obliged to trust him.

I think that gets to the core of the problem, really. Anybody can set themselves up as a promoter. They don't need to go through a panel or an interview process to do so. And they have quite a lot of um power i mean he was representing a nationwide competition in um and had to set himself up in an art center just be a little careful of revealing too many details you you understand yeah okay yeah okay so so they so already there was a certain amount of credibility. And yeah, anybody can do that. Well, nobody should, of course.

This must be very painful for you, and I'm sorry. I know you didn't speak about this for a long time after it happened, did you? No, I didn't want to speak about it. It took me a year to even discuss the details of what happened with my husband. Like I said, I almost wanted to shut it down I remember having conversations with a comedian where I was like can you please all stop talking about this because I didn't want the narrative to be taken off women because there was some quite you know rumors were starting to go around I mean you're talking about confidentiality on here there was some quite, you know, rumours were starting to go around. I mean, you're talking about confidentiality on here. There was some quite specific naming and shaming going on on the forums.

Yes, which I mean, you have every right, Nina, to occupy this space. Why not? And this man's behaviour was designed to make that very uncomfortable for you. And how dare he, frankly, never mind the legality of it. How has it made you feel about the whole profession? I think like Kiri was saying, I have some incredible friendships within the industry and there are some great promoters, so I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

It changed my personality, I would say, as a professional in the sense that in my prior career, I mean, I was a unison representative. I was somebody that was very outspoken in my previous industries because there were systems that I could trust because there are no systems in place. I think I became a quieter person and I think Kiri would probably you know be a reference for that that I've not been somebody that's spoken out in this arena although I do have a voice I've chosen not to use it until

until maybe the last month. Right well can I just I don't want to sound patronizing but well done for for for doing it because thank you let's hope it improves things kiri um this idea of a of a sexual harassment protocol how receptive has the industry been um uh refreshingly so actually nina and i had both been speaking to separate promoters um who tend to not exclusively but it's quite male dominated and what we found was actually having conversations with clubs and people who run gigs is that they were like god yeah we just don't we didn't know it was so bad we don't know how to fix it and they're like anything any guidance we can get from them is brilliant because ultimately the good guys in inverted commas they want everyone to be safe and happy in their working environment it creates a

nicer environment for everyone you know comedians means that every comedian wants to play their club so i think they do want to do things right but they just don't always know how and also because the comedy circuit is so small we all know each other so it can create some really difficult conversations it's it's easy to say this comedian that i don't like very much can't play our club anymore but that comedian who was the best man at your wedding who's had three accusations that's a more complicated conversation to have so what we're trying to do that kind of thing actually does go on does it you're talking about the reality of your professional life

well I think um there's definitely yes there's definitely people decide whether people are victims or not based on how much they like the person being accused and how much they like the accusee or find them believable. And we already know anyway that obviously this doesn't just affect women. I understand that. But it's when it comes to sexual harassment, we know that from the statistics generally that there's a lot of victim doubting that goes on. Obviously, at the moment, the comedy circuit isn't up and running any more than any other part of the entertainment industry. So you're operating in a bit of a vacuum, Kiri, at the moment. Well, as things are starting to move, they've sort of allowed from last weekend, they've allowed live gigs. But if anything, it's been it's been a bit easier because we're not out gigging. You know, we're not out gigging you know we're not

fighting fires we've got a bit more time to organize this and sit down and have these meetings and speak to people whereas you can't really do that if you're on the road six nights a week so one of the very small silver linings to come out of our industry being decimated is that we've had time to organize that was nina gilligan and k Pritchard-McLean on their idea of a protocol. It's actually, it's a bit depressing that there needs to be one, but I thought they were very powerful contributors, so our thanks to them. Now, on to your reaction to what we discussed on the programme today. Joanna emailed about our first conversation about whether or not sex offenders can change.

Why wasn't, asked Joanna, the gendered aspect mentioned, given that the vast majority of offenders are male and the majority of those who experience sexual violence are female? I believe that treatment has to involve an understanding of the abuse of power and inherent power imbalances. Pornography was seen as a lead-in to some of the offences spoken about. Joanna, thank you for that. Thank you for making that point.

And just to emphasise again, that documentary, if you would like to see it, it's not a comfortable watch, although I imagine it's, well, I know, it's a very important issue that we ought to all know more about. It's on BBC Three, which is obviously BBC's online

platform on Thursday, it'll be made available there. But also, it will be on BBC1 1045 on Thursday night this week. Now to the issue of so called baby boomer women who haven't had children and the impact that might have on our social care system. Catherine just made the point that she doesn't like the term childless, it is child free, she says. I'm living proof that you can have a nice life without having children. And I have provided for my old age. Yes, I mean, the reason I use the term childless was because I was quoting the headlines in the newspapers, Catherine, and Jodie Day, who was our guest, represents an organisation that is for people who are childless involuntarily. It was something they dearly wished to have children for whatever reason they didn't have them in the end.

So that's why we use the expression there. Georgia, I am a childless baby boomer. Embarrassed? Not me. I've saved the state the cost of educating my children and any health care they needed, while I may or may not require care in my dotage. I've saved the planet and the environmental impact of my children. I've been vegetarian since 1980 therefore my environmental impact is finite and it ends with me. Julia says in the 70s I looked after an elderly great aunt, a first world war generation lady. She was one of a huge number of women who were unmarried because of their lack of men in the 1920s.

She had social care then, as many did. What's new? Fix the social care problem. Don't blame people, says Julia. Michelle says, as a woman who would have loved to have had a family, but I didn't meet the right man at the right time. I've been single now for many years. I'm now 58. I've worked hard all my life, supported myself, run my own business and I continue to do so.

I feel I have paid huge amounts over the years towards social care should I need it. Well, quite. And from Marlene, one aspect of care not mentioned is that it's not just their children who support the older generation. Nieces, a childless aunt, the childless cousin of my mother, as well as an aunt and uncle who were estranged from their son. Marlene, thank you for that. And I imagine you speak for many of our listeners there, people of your generation who did so much for others over the years and richly deserve some acknowledgement for doing exactly that. Hannah says, having just listened to Woman's Hour, I should like to mention that many childless, unmarried women have taken on the role of carer for their parents,

often because other siblings were too busy looking after their own children or it defaults to them because they are only children. So who takes that into consideration when that woman needs care herself later in life? Again, the same point, but powerfully made, and thank you very much for that. Sue, I am one such childless woman, not through choice or medical impossibility.

I've just never found the right man to settle down with. I have, however, worked hard, contributed so much to the National Insurance Scheme. I've never drained it through my own needs. Surely then I am entitled to have a little bit back from society in my old age. I am terrified of growing old on my own and worried about what the future holds for me. Again, Sue, thank you for making this really, really important point. And of course, after everything you have done, the state should look after you and you should feel no guilt about that. She goes on to say, please spare a thought for women like me in the things

you discuss on your programme. It can be hard to listen to endless discussions about pregnancy, incontinence, stretch marks, being stuck at home with the kids, the traumas of homeschooling, etc., when some of us grieve daily and would give anything to have our own families growing around us. All right. Thank you for making that point, and I've taken it on board. Right. Thank you very much indeed for listening today. Jenny will be here tomorrow.

Her guests include Camilla Thurlow, who's got quite a CV. She's a bomb disposal expert,, who's got quite a CV. She's a bomb disposal expert and she's been on Love Island. Love Island. I never know how to say that or how to get it right. Anyway, Jenny, I'm sure, will get it right and she'll be here tomorrow. Are you still there? Good.

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Power Up. Power Up. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.