Woman's Hour - Cancer during pregnancy, Israel-Gaza, Wedding dresses

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Israel has accused the United Nations of moving too slowly to respond to accounts that Hamas carried out widespread sexual violence against women in the October 7th brutal attack on Israel. Christina Lamb, Chief Foreign Correspondent for the Sunday Times, has brought the details of this part of the attacks to light joins Emma Barnett.Mandy Abramson runs a bridal shop in Skipton in North Yorkshire. For two years now she’s run a special week in December where she invites women from all walks of life to try on a wedding dress even if they have no plans to marry. She joins Emma to explain why she wants to give everyone a chance to try on their dream dress. When Louise Beevers found a lump in her breast during pregnancy, she was told by her GP that it was hormone related. Four months later she was diagnosed with Grade 3 breast cancer, and despite undergoing treatment the cancer is now incurable. Louise joins Emma alongside the Chief Medical Officer from Macmillan Cancer Support Professor Richard Simcock to discuss why greater awareness about cancer in pregnancy is needed.Bestselling author of Apple Tree Yard, Louise Doughty, on a new ITVX drama based on her novel: Platform 7. She tells Emma Barnett how she has turned male-heavy police procedurals and spy thrillers on their head – and why she thinks all middle-aged women long to go on the run.Emma talks to two women about their hope for peace in Israel. Amira Mohammed is a Palestinian woman who works with young leaders across the Middle East and North Africa; and Danielle Cumpton is a 32-year-old from Israel who works for an organisation that promotes political partnership between Jews and Arabs within IsraelPresenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, good to be back with you. Monday, here we go. And I'm ready to hear from you, not least because we have two guests on the programme talking about bucket lists. One involves jumping out of an aeroplane with an expletive printed on a T-shirt and another trying on a wedding dress in a bridal shop despite having no plans to get married.

What's on yours? Often people only have their minds focused on what they really want from life when life or health is being threatened in some way. But have you a list? Why do you have one? And what's on it? Take me through it. Can you take me through what you really, really would like to be doing some of the time or maybe all of the time with your life, but maybe you're not quite getting to do it. Trying on a big white wedding dress might not be on there. Honestly, that's such a brilliant story that's coming up in the programme. Stay with me for that. Nor chucking yourself out of a plane. But what is it? I have said this before. I will do it at some point, but I do want to properly learn to dance. And recently I've decided to try and roller skate as well. But none of these things are happening right now.

What is yours? Are you actually achieving any of this? Maybe achieving is the wrong word, but getting it done. The number is 84844. That's the number to text me here on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges. Also on today's programme, the author finding inspiration at Peterborough train station and how to cope with difficult health news during pregnancy. All that to come. But first, over the last week, this programme here at Woman's Hour has been inviting

UN Women, the United Nations Women Division, onto the programme because of accusations by Israel that it moved too slowly to respond to accounts that Hamas carried out widespread sexual violence against Israeli women in the brutal October 7th attacks on Israel. And as more harrowing details have come to light about the rape and sexual abuse that Hamas is understood to have carried out. We have renewed that invitation this morning here on Woman's Hour, but we have heard nothing. So we are not able to bring you anyone from the United Nations despite our best efforts. Last week, UN women did release a statement saying it quote, unequivocally condemned the brutal attacks by Hamas

and was alarmed by the numerous accounts of gender-based atrocities and sexual violence during those attacks. For some, this was too late. The Israeli ambassador to Britain questioned why it took 50 days for the organisation to speak about it. Others have questioned why those who were vocal during the MeToo movement have been silent about the abuse of Israeli women. To discuss this in more detail, I am joined by a woman who has

spent a lot of her professional life looking at rape as a weapon of war, Christina Lamb, Chief Foreign Correspondent at the Sunday Times, who brought the details of this part of the attacks to light and is the author of Our Bodies, The Battlefields, What War Does to Women. She joins me now. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for being with us. We are now some days on since your first report in detail on this, and the BBC also then reported what it had been able to talk to those about

who have got accounts that need to be listened to. For your money, why is the UN Women's Division being criticised like this? Well, I think it's often the case when this happens. Unfortunately, it happens in far too many places when there's rape at war that it doesn't come to light or it's not talked about. I can just give you an example. 31,000 women in the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo reported being raped this year in IDP camps. And I challenge you to find any comments in the media about that. So there is a problem generally, but in this specific case where there was so much

media attention and so much reporting on the issue generally of October the 7th and the subsequent attack of Gaza, I think it's quite inexplicable why UN women took so long to come forward. Their job is to actually highlight things happening to women and they talk about the slogan Believe Women. And yet in this case, it seems that they just were completely silent and they cannot say that they didn't know because Israeli feminist groups wrote to them early on presenting a large array of evidence and they also got no response. And some of the women who wrote to them were women who had actually served on UN committees highlighting this issue in other countries. So what do you think is going on? You used the word inexplicable. Well, it's hard to know. I think this is a conflict, you know, with an incredible amount of sensitivity.

People seem to feel that it's not possible to be absolutely horrified by what Israel is doing in Gaza, where so many thousands of women and children have been killed, but also be horrified by what happened to Israeli women and children on October the 7th when Hamas attacked. To me, you can feel very angry and upset about both things, but people seem to feel that they need to take sides in this. I think the left is a real issue. I mean, they should be supporting women everywhere. I think we should call out violence against women and children wherever it happens. There shouldn't be some kind of political feeling that we can't. I think there's a fear that if you talk about this and condemn it, that you're somehow giving them justification to Israel for what they're doing in Gaza. And you're not. The two things are wrong.

And as you see it, I suppose, because we're going to be talking later in the programme to an Israeli woman and a Palestinian woman who've looked and thought about how peace could be or may be possible or how they hope it will be. But I suppose what you're saying here is, well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying the UN women has taken a side? I don't know. I can't explain why. I'm just saying I find it odd. I can see why Israeli women are upset about it. And I just find it difficult to understand why UN women could not at least issue a sort of

anodyne statement at the beginning saying that they were disturbed by the reports or something that didn't implicate them in any way but and the fact that they're not coming on your program to talk about it and it's not just the UN women. The UN Secretary General has a special representative whose job is preventing sexual violence in conflict. And she did not make a statement on this until last Friday, which is about 62 days into the conflict. It's not there's nothing else you could say at this point because you're making the point fairly as well that in terms of the UN they aren't here you know and we've made repeat requests I hope that the UN will take us up on that offer it's the I believe the longest running women's program in the world so you would hope that there could be that sort of that dialogue and to answer some of those questions that you pose having looked at

this for some time do you think there's also generally as you talked about things not being covered whereas this was covered and is being covered do you think there's just a difficulty to compute that this happens i think that you know i i wrote as you mentioned a book about rape and war because i was so shocked at how much it was happening and how little was being done about it and I really became very aware of the scale of it and it being used systematically as a weapon in 2014-2015 when you remember that the Yazidi girls and women were taken by Islamic state fighters as sex slaves. And, you know, there was international outrage there. And lots of people, including UN women, condemned what happened.

But actually, even today, you know, nothing's really happened to help those women. They're still in camps in Iraq in miserable conditions. A number of them have taken their lives. So there is a real problem, first first in reporting this to begin with, but then actually doing something about it even when we do, we are aware of it. We're also living in a time we're told that people have less tolerance for the news, that they are turning away from news,

that they want to seek, you know, refuge in other pursuits, or even just zone out scrolling endlessly through social media. And, you know, that side of news is definitely a very challenging aspect in terms of, I'm sure you're very frustrated about it, but disinformation and what is out there. But if you're reporting this sort of content, and these particular focused attacks on women, you know, it always comes, as we even do on this programme, with a warning of what you're about to read or see or hear is very distressing or difficult. Do you worry that it's hard to get people to engage?

Absolutely. I mean, my job is going to bad places, reporting on bad things happening to people. And, you know, the last couple of years, we've had two major wars, you know, Ukraine and Israel, Gaza. So I think I've always tried very hard to try and find people doing good things in those places. And it's always sort of given me faith that you do find people doing incredible things in dark places. But, you know, it's quite hard, I have to say, at the moment to find hope. But I do think, you know, sadly, my job is to highlight uncomfortable things. And this is an uncomfortable issue my one of my previous foreign editors um who's now retired told me nobody wants to read about this you wouldn't publish stories about rape so um i feel strongly that just because something's uncomfortable doesn't mean

that we should ignore it on the contrary we, we should talk about it. Otherwise, it won't stop happening. We need to actually discuss why it's happening so much and what can be done about it. So it worries me a little bit, the focus of this with what's happened in Israel is so much on why that's not being particularly reported rather than the whole issue generally. And on the why, just to make sure, because we are some few days on from your reports as well.

And there were discussions around that. I heard you on the media show with my colleagues here at Radio 4 talking about how you report these things. But why sexual violence gets used? There is a discussion, just if you can, in brief, but because I know you can talk about this for a long time, but there is a discussion as to whether it's a strategic goal, whether it's part of the attack, or whether it's freelancing by individuals. With Hamas, what is your view of why it was done? I think it does look systematic because of the scale of it. But you know, that's what we're seeing, it being used as a weapon of war. Of course, there's always been rape in war,

and often it is just because of the general breakdown of society and people rape and pillage. That doesn't make it okay, but it isn't something that people have actually specifically been told to do, as was, you know, with the Yazidis, Islamic State fighters were instructed to do this. And it does look, from what we're seeing of October the 7th, that there was a similar instruction.

I mean, IDF interrogators who have spoken to and interrogated Hamas fighters they've captured, they claim that they say that they were told to so-called sully or dirty the women and from the scale of the reports of what people saw the states of the bodies that were picked up some of the eyewitness accounts it does sound as it was something that they specifically went to do and And it wasn't individuals doing it. It was often gang rape, you know, eight to ten people raping a woman. Christina Lamb, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. Chief Foreign Correspondent of The Sunday Times.

I mentioned also we will hear from two women, a Palestinian and an Israeli, about what it feels like to still be calling for peace after October the 7th, a bit later on in the programme. You've been getting in touch throughout that discussion and please do continue to do so. I'm with you, of course, until 11 o'clock this morning. And you've been getting in touch about things that you want to do in your life day to day. Maybe you've not got round to them, things that you dream of, those secret things maybe you tell no one. You can tell me, you don't have to put a name on it. The bucket list, as it were, for some that you call it that.

I mentioned dancing. I also mentioned roller skating on mine. I heard you mention roller skating, reads this text. I run a friendly, body positive roller skate collective that's welcoming for newbies. We're called We Got This. Skating is much more fun with a group. You'll be sure to make friends and it's for everyone and a great way to get out of your usual comfort zone, enjoy movement and surprise yourself with what you're able to do. That sounds brilliant. I'm still quite scared. Two things on my bucket list for retirement.

We're having an open garden for charity and doing a quick magic course. I did both. Great fun. I love that it was a quick magic course, you know. Be efficient there. And you've got to have the garden ready. And Rita says, I would like to play bass clarinet on a song with Elton John. Yes, it's crazy. I know, especially at my age, I've spent 45 years teaching woodwind. I love that

that might be the barrier. But you know, who knows? Maybe Elton John listens to Woman's Hour. I live in hope. Maybe we can make that happen for you, Rita. Thank you very much. And the reason we're talking about this and maybe dreams or unfulfilled dreams is because of this wonderful story. Have you ever wanted to try on a wedding dress, but for whatever reason, haven't had the chance and always thought you would? You may balk at the idea or maybe it's something you really want to do. Mandy Abramson, that's the name you need. She runs a bridal shop in Skipton in North Yorkshire. And for two years now, she's run a special week at least once a year where she invites women from all walks of life to try on a wedding dress,

even if they have no plans to marry or feel they never will, which are slightly two different things and fraught with emotion, as you can imagine. Mandy, good morning. Good morning. I saw a video with some of my colleagues at the BBC, some of the women doing this, and it's a really extraordinary thing, even though it sounds quite simple, isn't it? Yeah, it started off as a really simple idea and it's really taken off. It's been quite popular the last two years and it's such a lot of fun,

as I'm sure you saw in the video of that. There's a lot of laughter, there's a lot of hugs, there's a lot of laughter there's a lot of hugs there's a lot of emotion and it's really freeing almost for women they find it great there was a one particular woman who um had been diagnosed with cancer and she'd been engaged twice but she hadn't been married and she sort of broke down and she said you know this was my chance this is my wedding day because she'd always wanted wanted to have that moment. Yeah, this is Molly, who is actually the main inspiration for this. We have a mutual friend and our mutual friend approached me about two years ago and said she has this lady she knows who is sadly terminally ill.

She doesn't know how long she's got left. And obviously she's ticking things off a bucket list. And one of the main things she wanted to do was try on wedding dresses now molly as you can see is still thankfully with us so she was able to come down and film this video with us um but she's um she's ticking lots of things off she's raising lots of funds for cancer research through through the journey as she's doing different things but at the end of the day it was all about it gave us the inspiration we she gave us a lot of photographs to share we put them on social media and obviously initially there were a few emotions we were a little bit tearful at the beginning of the appointment but after that it was just the

sheer enjoyment and the joy bursting out of her in these photographs and Molly very kindly let us have them to put on social media and we put put this little post on, very simple, saying, oh, it's, you know, we just helped somebody out with the bucket list. It was a great morning. We had lots of fun. And it went absolutely viral. It got seen by over 200,000 people. Now, for a small independent shop, that is phenomenal to get that sort of reach.

You just don't get that. And it was just great. And we had lots of comments underneath it that were very, very positive. And everything was so, you look beautiful, you look fabulous, you look great. But we were seeing lots of little comments sneaking through, oh, I'd love to do that. I've never had a wedding dress on. I've been married twice. I've never worn a wedding dress. And it gave me the inspiration to offer this every time I get a quiet spot, which is usually once or twice a year. What do you think it is about a wedding dress? For some, this is not their ideal afternoon or

morning, but for others, they may not have even thought about this, but in the back of their mind, they may think it would be amazing to put one on, or it would certainly make them feel something different. It's the little girl factor. I mean, most of us played with dolls as children and this basically is a grown-up version of playing dollies is my job you know i get to dress people up in pretty dresses all the time but if you are if you were a child who played with a doll the dress that you always aspired to put your doll in was the wedding dress and it's just got this almost mythical quality about how special it is and we do get girls who've never had one on before. They put it on and they can come in, they can be quite self-conscious,

their shoulders are down, they're a little bit embarrassed. They put it on, they turn and they look at themselves in the mirror and all of a sudden their shoulders go up, they get a big smile on their face and they go, oh, oh, actually. And it really is that difference it makes. It is a very strange thing, but I do see it all the time. As I say, some will not have played with dolls. Some will put their dolls, like I did, in some kind of weird...

I think I was given some kind of weird power suit in a Paris Barbie, other dolls available thing. But there is a thing I can see in this video of people feeling quite transformed. And you must see that regularly, even not on these special weeks that you run. You know, people put this dress on and something happens. Yeah, I'm really lucky.

I'm celebrating 25 years in business next spring, in March, actually. We'll be doing some celebratory things. And I've seen this all the time. And we do get girls come in who are not girly girls. They find it uncomfortable to think about wearing dresses obviously they're getting married and the thing is that people expect them to wear one and it's just really I don't know it's almost like and lifting you know they sort of put

this dress on and all of a sudden they have this little moment of freedom look at me I'm actually really gorgeous and I do look like a woman and this is where it generally comes from and it is just a really satisfying job to do and see and I've seen so many girls over the years who have just lit up the minute they've put one on and it's just the best job in the world. You know I'm going to say something quite counterintuitive at this point I've not thought about it since I think if I did it again I got married about 10 ago now. I'm not sure I would wear a wedding dress though. I mean, it was really good fun trying it on. I couldn't walk. It was so heavy. And I wish I'd practiced. Okay, let's at least go to that point. And it is magical to have a special dress, a special outfit to really think about something. And you know, my husband, I think he had a tailored suit. You know, that was his first experience of that. But it's a funny thing.

I wonder, do you also get people coming to these weeks who didn't like what they wore the first time around and wish they'd done it differently? All the time. We see that all the time. We do also get a lot of girls who just come because it's fun, but we also get girls who come in who perhaps have been through a difficult time in their life and they're just now starting to find the beat and it's just a little boost of confidence it gives them a little

bit of confidence back and it's just brilliant we share all the pictures on our social media pages and the comments are just incredible but what really strikes me as well is that there are very very few comments that say that's a lovely dress. They always say you look beautiful. And that is exactly what it is. It's nothing to do with the dress. It's how your face lights up when you've got it on. Mandy, it is lovely to talk to you. I think you will have brought a smile to everybody's face this morning on a Monday morning.

Just a final quick question. As someone who has a dress for a shop full of wedding dresses, do you try them on regularly when everybody's gone home? Well, I have to test them and check the safe of custom juice. It's very dangerous, of course, but I'm prepared to take that risk. If I came in at eight o'clock on a random evening, would you just be sat there with a beer in your hand in a wedding dress? Well, I don't drink, but I might have a donut or something.

OK, donut. We'll go there. I just had that mental image. Mandy Abramson, thank you so much. The bridal shops in Skipton in North Yorkshire, and it's given us an excuse this morning to talk about bucket lists. One here, Julia says, in my son's wild youth, he was the front man of a rock band he used to play in a local pub.

I told him for my birthday present I wanted to get up on stage with the band and sing the House of the Rising Sun, an anthem of my own less wild youth. His reply, I don't think so mum. Still on my bucket list, alas. And Glamour says, perfect opportunity to learn to dance. Emma, join the cast of Strictly

Come Dancing 2024. I would like to see you in training with a professional. What a journey that would be. I would not, but thank you for the challenge. It's noted. I always like thoughts from you. Maybe I'll mull that, but it's not something on my personal bucket list right now, but the dancing is. We're also going to hear now from Louise Beavers, who I know has a view on bucket lists, but because she's in a very difficult situation, and I know she wants to talk about this, hence why she's coming on Woman's Hour today. Louise two weeks after she found out she was pregnant with her fourth child found a lump

in her breast and obviously alarmed she went to her GP who informed her that the lump was likely hormonal pregnancy related nothing to worry about but three months later a lump the size of a tangerine had appeared in Louise's breast and she went back to her GP and was referred for further tests. But within two days, another large tumour appeared in the same breast and she was diagnosed with grade three breast cancer. After giving birth, she was told that the cancer had spread to her lungs and had become incurable. Cancer during pregnancy is rare. One in every 1,000 pregnancies will coincide with a diagnosis. And while healthcare professionals say that it is unlikely for most women, based on Louise's story, which, as I say,

she's sharing with us today, they are encouraging a greater awareness in the public and in general practice. So in a moment, I will speak to the oncologist, Professor Richard Simcock, Chief Medical Officer at Macmillan Cancer Support. But let me talk first to you, Louise. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? I'm okay. And it's lovely to have you on the programme. Not an easy thing for you to talk about.

I summarise a bit of your story there. But first of all, congratulations on the new baby. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you're both doing okay in that sense. But I did mention you found this lump early on. Yes. As you correctly said, two weeks after I discovered I was pregnant, I found a pea-sized lump. And yeah, I went to my GP and was, I suppose, falsely reassured.

And you carried on with the pregnancy, obviously, carried on in your life. I know you already had three children. Yes. So busy. And then you went back and what happened? I went back and I saw a different GP at that time and was instantly referred on the two-week wait referral system. And within two days of that referral being made,

a second lump appeared of similar size to the initial lump. And this obviously changed your life, hearing about what had happened or what was happening. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, my whole life has been flipped upside down and turned inside out. It's no longer my own. You gave birth. Tell us about that that because that was also a different experience than what you were expecting in terms of what happened next and your ability to be with your baby in the same way you've been with your others. Yeah, so the whole pregnancy has been overshadowed with cancer and with my three other children I'm very much uh you know natural you know breastfeeding and

so my third child breastfed her until she was two years old you know to give her the best possible start and unfortunately with this I underwent a radical mastectomy so I was left with only one breast I managed to breastfeed my baby for only two weeks before the chemotherapy had to start. And so she's had only two weeks of that mother-baby bond that breastfeeding brings. So yeah, unfortunately, she's not been given the same start as the other three. And that has affected your ability, I'm sure, in some ways to not feel the same about you and your baby, but the same about the experience.

Yeah, the whole experience has been completely and utterly tarnished. It's, yeah, it's just not how it should be. No woman should have to feel like they've been robbed of what is their natural right. You are, or have been doing chemo, is that right? Yes, yes, that's right. You are or have been doing chemo is that right? Yes yes. And where are you up to with that and how are you today? I'm okay today I would have been due another round tomorrow but I've kindly declined the offer because unfortunately I'm not tolerating the chemo very well and with it being so close to Christmas and as not knowing how many more Christmases I may have I'm not willing to risk

and being hospitalized on Christmas day so I've um yeah and it was to be my final round tomorrow anyway so now I've just taken that decision to decline. And try and, I suppose, lean into the madness of Christmas, if that is mad in your house. I mean, I'm only thinking because there's quite a few small people. Yeah. Well, my eldest is 17 and I have a 14-year-old as well. So, yeah, and then a three-year-old. Yeah, and then the new baby.

But yes, carnage and chaos is what I love about Christmas. That's exactly what i want and and i mean you're speaking out today and you're talking about this yes why are you motivated to do so because of the the false reassurance i received in january i we don't fully know but you sort of can't help feeling that should something have happened when I initially made contact with the GP if the referral had been made then I wouldn't be in this situation I'd be telling a different story I would I suppose I would like to think I'd be looking at reconstruction surgery now and getting on with the rest of my life and unfortunately instead I've made my own funeral arrangements and will and you know all the rest of my life. And unfortunately, instead, I've made my own funeral arrangements

and will and, you know, all those end of life practicalities have taken precedent as opposed to making plans for the future. How are you processing that side of this, if I can ask? We have good days and we have a lot of bad days. And obviously it's pretty much an emotional roller coaster. And the good days are getting more as we adjust to this new way of life. Yes, it's difficult and it's certainly not something I'd ever, ever wish on anybody. Stay with me while I just welcome Professor Richard Simcock.

Take a moment, if you can, a clinical oncologist specialising in breast cancer. Good morning. Good morning. It's a very difficult reality to hear about, but I know that you want to talk about the ability and sometimes, you know, what happens to people during pregnancy with cancer diagnosis. I mean, how common is this and what do we need to learn from if we can learn anything from this story that we're hearing about from Louise? Well, the learning is about awareness. I really want to thank Louise going through what is such an extraordinarily difficult thing at this time of year to take her time to share her story and raise this awareness because

if there's one key message we want to get out there is that this can happen it's rare but rarity doesn't exclude it happening low risk doesn't mean no risk and as healthcare professionals we need to be aware of this possibility breast cancer in pregnancy is a rare event, but as pregnancies occur later and later in a woman's life, because breast cancer occurs later in a woman's life, the two events are likely to happen more often as a coincidence. There is no direct relationship between the cancer and the pregnancy. These are two coincidental events. But if a woman has a pregnancy in a later age, the possibility is higher. So healthcare professionals need to be alert to that possibility. And breast changes shouldn't be assumed to be simply due to the pregnancy, particularly if they're affecting only one side rather than both sides. And the things that you and all of your listeners will know well about breast cancer symptoms, painless masses, lumps in the breasts or any discharge, they should always be brought to the attention of a healthcare professional. And for our part as healthcare professionals,

we want healthcare professionals to be alert to the possibility that that could be a cancer. And on that, you know, we hear there was a reassurance that was wrong in this case. Does cancer present differently when you're pregnant? No, the presentations are exactly the same. The symptoms are unchanged, so usually a painless lump. Very rarely you may get a blood-stained nipple discharge and rarely you may get some skin changes. Now, glandular changes, lactational changes in the breast are

common in pregnancies, so they can be confused. But if they're on one side, and we always say that the woman is the best person to know her own body, and if she's not happy about things, then if the healthcare professionals are initially reassured that it's due to the pregnancy, we would at least encourage some very rapid return, what we in our jargon would call some safety netting, to return in perhaps a few weeks to make sure things have not changed or things have got better. And if not, then to be referred for assessment. And I just want to reassure people that assessment of the breast in pregnancy is a little more challenging because of the things that are changing, but it's perfectly safe to image

the breast with ultrasound. There's no risks of radiation to the baby. So it's perfectly safe and appropriate to investigate at any stage of a pregnancy. Do you think healthcare professionals are where they need to be on this front? Because I think when you are pregnant, you are in a situation where your body doesn't feel like your own, but also a lot of things are put down to the fact you are pregnant. I think it's too easy to blame the pregnancy. And so at Macmillan, the charity Mummy Star that Louise has been involved with that support women with cancer and pregnancy,

we've been trying to raise awareness amongst healthcare professionals. Mummy Star have been doing some fabulous work with antenatal professionals, health visitors, midwives, educating them about cancer and pregnancy. And we've also been working with an organisation called Gateway C, based in Manchester, that provide education for primary healthcare professionals, so health visitors, practice nurses and GPs, who with Macmillan we've provided some educational materials so that this message is clearly heard.

Thank you for that, Professor Richard Simcock. Let me come back to you listening to that, Louise. What do you want to say? Because there are those listening who will be able to relate to some of this. Now, I might be a bit concerned. We're just trying to put things into context. But it must be difficult for you to hear this and what should have happened which didn't.

It is incredibly difficult. There's a lot of what-if thoughts and maybes that completely shroud my entire journey. I knew in January that pea-sized lump was not right. I've never, I've breastfed three children and I know what a milked, you know, blocked milk duct, I know what mastitis is and it's, I knew it wasn't right, but I was still reeling from the shock of it expecting the fourth child that was not part of my life plan so you know it was just to be reassured on one thing allowed me then to get on with the other thing that I was reeling from but if I could get say anything to anybody just if it's not right if it doesn't feel right and you aren't referred, put your foot down and persist.

And, you know, you know your own body better than anybody, regardless of their qualification. You know your body. If it doesn't feel right, insist on being referred. It takes two minutes for that referral form to be completed. Two minutes. it takes two minutes for that referral form to be completed two minutes two minutes of a medical professional's time insist that they they refer you and the breast care teams they would rather see a person and it be nothing to worry about than for somebody to do nothing and it becomes something to worry about the message here saying i'm just listening to you louise i'm so angry you

were fobbed off i had a pea-sized lump i found while i was breastfeeding was checked at the hospital with samples taken within two weeks um a lot of people will be feeling uh your your pain and also be feeling that anger for you i did mention right at the beginning of the program i don't know if you heard though that you um that somebody on the program today and it is you i believe jumping out of an airplane with an expletive laden t-shirt um it would be remiss of me not to ask you about that because you you have drawn up and have been drawing up a bucket list and things to do I don't know if trying on a wedding dress again might be on that because we just heard about that

but tell me tell me what's on there and tell me about jumping out of an airplane? Well so yeah I drew up a bucket list I turned 40 in March of this year and just before my 40th I drew up a bucket list and what I would like to do on or around my 40th birthday that bucket list then changed once I received this diagnosis and it became a lot more evolved and longer. And so skydiving was something that I'd always wanted to do. And it transpired that my eldest daughter, who's 17, wanted to do also. So I was like, right, let's do this. And then it evolved from there. So there ended up being 12 of us jumping that day.

And a friend of mine has a printing company so she printed us the elusive t-shirts for the explicits and so we were all in uniform if you like and it was just an amazing day to watch those people jump out the plane that is something they would never ever do in a lifetime but I know just as my best friend was about to fall out of the plane she looked back at me and I could see the terror on her face and I know just as my best friend was about to fall out of the plane, she looked back at me and I could see the terror on her face. And I was just grinning from ear to ear and she just went, but the euphoria she felt when she landed, I'm sure, you know, the words can't express.

The bucket list goes on. We're going to London to watch the fireworks. Every year we watch it on New Year's Eve on the TV and we're like, oh, we want to be there. And so it's just, we're of the mindset now,'s eve on the tv and we're like oh we want to be there and so it's just we're of the mindset now right we're going we're going and we've been so fortunate there's been a go fund me page and it just blew up it blew up people have been so generous people you know companies have worked for 20 years ago have made generous donations to it and it's been so overwhelming but it's allowing us me and my family and friends to go out there

and tick that bucket list which is so extensive I can't even begin to tell you what's on there. Well no it's it's great to have a an insight into it and I should say for those who are wondering what the expletive said I'm not going to say the exact word I'm sure my producer's going to look at me through the glass but it said something cancer which was effectively screw cancer um but a better way of putting it if i'm allowed to go there um yes louise thank you so much for coming on not easy today but i know you feel incredibly passionate passionately absolutely completely and utterly i hope you have the most chaotic brilliant christmas thank you so much and merry christmas to you yeah well i'm well we're okay with that

now it's 11th of December and from you Louise you can do it. Louise Beaver's there thank you so much for talking to us and many messages coming in along those lines but also about things that you really want to do in your life and so they carry on and there's one here talking about I wrote a bucket list six months ago after I retired quite a few on that on that front I'm now playing guitar in an Americana brand and I've done the first thing on the list but the next thing is the biggest challenge I write about ocean conservation but I haven't been able to speak in public about it yet though I've been asked to several times I really want to be able to there's little as inspiring as hearing

someone talk about what they're passionate about. I always find it fascinating. It's very high on the list of certainly British people's fears is talking in public. It's something that people find really, really difficult. I obviously struggle to relate to that difficulty. I'm quite nervous about, as we've been talking about, going to learn how to roller skate. But I really hope you do do that because I think there is a huge high from being able to share your ideas and your thoughts and having an audience for it, which I'm very privileged to most days when I do this programme. Let's talk about where you get your inspiration from, though, because my next guest has taken it from Peterborough train station of all places.

Louise Doughty is the bestselling author of Apple Tree Yard, a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature. I could carry on. But her book Platform 7 has now been adapted as a TV series on ITVX. It tells the story of Lisa, a ghost trapped at that train station until she can solve the mystery of her own death. Did she really take her own life as the police thought or was she killed? Louise Doughty, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you. Peterborough train station. There we go. Where dreams are made. Oh, absolutely. It's Peterborough train station. There we go. Where dreams are made. Oh, absolutely.

It's Peterborough Railway Station as a metaphor for purgatory, which for anyone who's ever been through Peterborough Railway Station, when your train is cancelled, the ladies is locked, the waiting room is locked. In fact, in fairness to Peterborough Railway Station, that happens less often. I mean, the ladies toilet being locked, obviously, not the train being cancelled. But I grew up in a small town in the East Midlands. I went to university in the north of England. I used to have to change there a lot in the early 1980s. And I used to have this standing joke that if I'd been bad and went to purgatory when I died,

I would find myself trapped on Peterborough Railway Station on a cold November night. And as you say, this is a novel and now a TV series that's narrated by a ghost. But I think the first thing we want to say is that although it's a novel narrated by a ghost, and it's about a very serious subject, it's actually a novel and I think a TV series about love. It's about the different forms of love in our lives. It's about how we do live on in the hearts of those that love us. It's about the different forms of love in our lives. It's about how we do live on in the hearts of those that love us. It's about the love we have for our family, our friends. But there is a central mystery. It opens, Lisa is on the station. You realise very quickly, it's not a spoiler, that she's a ghost in the TV series. She's brilliantly played by Jasmine

Jobson. She's standing there in pyjamas. You think, what is this young woman doing? And then you realise that there's a mystery behind her death. What really happened to her and why is she trapped on the station? Do you believe in ghosts? I believe that if you believe in ghosts, they exist. And I don't believe in ghosts. I don't know if that sounds nonsensical. You could have given a politician for that answer, couldn't you? I believe in the belief. Yes. I think that ghosts are manifestations of what we want. So I have had friends who have

been very rational like me, and I'm a very rational, humanist, sceptical person, who, having lost somebody close to them, have gone to mediums, even not necessarily believing they can talk to their loved one, but believing that the thought of doing that, that being in a room where that is possible, has given them great comfort. So yes, I mean, it sounds like a smart way of putting it, but I think it's also a truthful way of putting it. You can believe in the belief and you can believe in the comfort of that somebody who has gone still exists in your life. I mean, I believe very much that my mother still exists in my life. I look like her. My daughters look like her. And the strange thing about Platform 7 is when I was writing it in the wake of losing my mother

and at the time I didn't realise that was what it was about. I thought I'm writing a novel about a bit of a psychological thriller set on Peterborough Railway Station but the central character is a young woman who's died and there are scenes where the mother is mourning her daughter and then I finished the novel and I started thinking about it and talking about it and I thought, yeah, I was writing about a mother's love for her daughter and actually I was thinking of my mother.

I'd always said that when both my parents had died, I'd never change trains on Peterborough Railway Station again because I wouldn't have to go back to the small town where they lived. And then what did I do? I decided to write a whole novel set there. What was that about? If it was not holding on, I think, to my mother. And I only realised that a year or so after I'd finished the book. Strange thing, the human imagination. Yes. And where it takes you and why you're doing what you're doing without consciously thinking of it. You know, there will be those be those who you know and they'll love your books and

they'll be very familiar with the fact that you like complexity in your stories and different layers um but there'll still be perhaps that thought that there is a woman who has died here who has been killed you know and there are concerns about the the prevalence of that on television and in our culture and in reality, of course. But people go to culture to escape. What do you say to that? I would say I share those concerns. And certainly when it comes to what we've had historically, and thankfully it is changing, is in a lot of thrillers or TV dramas, we have had the body of a dead woman, almost always young and beautiful, as if any murder victim is a beautiful young woman in a negligee running through a forest. And then we have had a male detective figure

to whom that body is a conundrum to be solved. a male killer such as a serial killer who's a psychopath and a sadist and the actual engine of the drama is the battle between these two men and the female body is nothing just just like a crossword puzzle thankfully I think we've moved on a long way from that and I think the issue is not should violence against women be addressed in entertainment, in novels and television dramas and films. It's how do we do it? And the whole point about Platform 7 is the story is told from the point of view of the young woman who has died. And she becomes an active investigator, investigating her own death. She's not just a conundrum to be solved by a middle-aged man. You see her having thoughts and emotions even after death.

And crucially, you see her attempt at revenge later on. And I really don't want to give away what happened. I'm letting you talk because I know if I say the wrong thing, I'm going to give away. She becomes a very active participant in the investigation of her own death. And, you know, violence against women is a horrific reality. We have to address it. We can't ignore it. We can't pretend it doesn't happen. It's a question of how we do it.

Yes. And that distinction. I do want to bring up the fact your most recent novel, A Bird in Winter, out last summer. You can tell us a bit about it in brief if you can. I do want to bring up the fact your most recent novel, A Bird in Winter, out last summer. You can tell us a bit about it in brief if you can. But also, is it right you went on the run to research it? I did go on the run. I'm a great believer in research. It's a bit like when I have an idea for a novel, I have to go out and hunt it down like a woolly mammoth.

And with Platform 7, I spent more time than any one person needs to do on Peterborough railway station, including... I'm sure there are great fans of this railway station who listen, by the way, but carry on. And I'm actually very fond of it. And I'm certainly very fond of the staff who are fantastic and welcoming to me. But yes, with The Bird in Winter, it opens with a woman getting up in an ordinary office block in Birmingham in a meeting. And there's, you know, a glass top table and croissant coffee on the table. And what she's thinking as she rises is it's no more than 30 paces to the lift. And she goes on the run. She heads to the station.

And during the course of her flight, you follow her flight. You find out who and what she is running from. And I was writing this novel. The irony did not escape me during the pandemic at a time when we were all trapped in our own homes. So the minute restrictions lifted, I thought, right, I need to go on the run. And I got on my waterproof coat and my rucksack and a beanie hat and I started in Birmingham. And I followed Bird's journey up to Glasgow, over to the Western Isles, a beautiful little village on the west coast of Scotland called Plockton. And then across to Inverness, up to Thurso and the ferry to Orkney and so on.

In the novel, Bird goes on to Shetland and then she crosses the North Sea illegally during a storm on a yacht and enters Norway at Stavanger illegally. I didn't do that bit. I have a very... I was going to say, what's the difference between when you're researching it, going on the run and just going on a really nice trip where you don't need to tell anyone in your life where you've gone? The difference, I would say, is for a start, I didn't have any of the normal protections. I was staying in guest houses one night at a time. I knew that she couldn't use a car because with automatic number plate recognition in this country, my advice to anyone listening is going on the run, don't use a car, you'll get caught very quickly. So it was... We've never issued such advice before, but there we go. She's on foot, she's on ferries. And the thing about being a woman travelling on your own is it's not hard to in Thurzo in the pitch dark, the bus pulls away, my fellow passengers melt into the night, I'm on my own, I've got to find a guest house.

And as a woman on your own, I think we are used to negotiating our relationship with public space, particularly after dark. So it did actually make birds situation much, much easier to imagine. I was walking through a deserted town in the pitch dark with a rucksack on my back, no idea where I was. I just like to test these things, you know, but it's a very vivid description, which is obviously what you're known for. We started by talking about Platform 7, which is on ITVX having been adapted. Louise Doughty, thank you for talking to us this morning and some vivid descriptions there to get your imaginations flowing. I'll come, if I can, back to some of your bucket list items which are still coming in. But earlier in the programme, we heard from the Sunday Times journalist Christina Lamb.

She was talking to us about the atrocities reported to have been committed against Israeli women by Hamas and gave some thoughts on why it has taken the United Nations Women's Division so long to comment. I mentioned during that discussion we were going to hear from two women, one Palestinian, one Israeli, who choose to remain focused on peace. This is against a backdrop of more bombing of Gaza, loss of life, no news on any further hostage releases with more than 100 Israeli hostages still being held by Hamas. Amira Mohammed is a 24-year-old Palestinian woman who works with young leaders across the Middle East and North Africa with the charity Ropes. And Danielle Compton is a 32-year-old from Israel who works for an organisation that promotes political partnerships between Jews and Arabs within

Israel called Have You Seen the Horizon Lately? The two travelled to Northern Ireland last year to see what lessons they could learn from the troubles. Amira, Danielle, welcome to both of you to Woman's Hour. Amira, I was going to start with you, and I wanted to just ask what prompted you first to work towards peace? What was the start of your journey? Amira, hello. I'm hoping we have Amira. Let me see if I can go to Danielle. Danielle,

hello. Hello. Hi, I'll go back to Amira in just a moment. I'll ask you the same question. What was the start of your journey? First of all, thank you so much for having me here sorry danielle do you just do you mind restarting that the line just went a bit glitchy yes yes i i'm here um what you were hearing is i may have asked i think there's some issue with the internet but um what got me started um it was a it was a very gradual process um starting i I think, when I was around 14. That's when my village, the rocket fire from Gaza, the range of the rocket fire reached my village. So for the first time, I experienced in first person the horrors of the conflict. And at that point, I felt like this is impossible. How can people live like this?

I mean, how am I expected to live under constant threat over my family and my own lives? And that's when I realized that something was deeply, deeply wrong about the place where I live. And the process continued into my young adult life. I had to serve in the Israeli military as it's obligatory for all citizens. But I didn't at that point have much political awareness. I didn't really understand what was happening. I didn't understand that Israel was occupying the Palestinian nation.

I didn't, I really didn't have a good perception that these are things that are not taught in, in, in public schools in Israel. And then I started my BA studies and that's when my awareness really started to grow and where I understood the inherent injustices that are part of the political system that I live in. And as I grew more aware and as I was learning what was happening around me, it was clear to me that I cannot continue living here in Israel as an Israeli without trying to correct the situation, without trying to work for a better future, not only for my own family's sake and my own community, but also for the sake of the Palestinianestinian people my neighbors and my friends

uh who live not too far i was going to say there are a lot of people we are i'm we're trying very very hard to get hold of uh amira muhammad who who was on the line and has dropped off the line having some technical issues to i'm still here you are still here fantastic i'm so sorry i was being told that we were trying to reach you. Amira, I was going to say welcome. Good morning. Thank you so much. If I could ask you the same question. When you started thinking about peace and that being the way that you wanted to talk about this and think about this. Great, great question. I'll sum it up by saying that like Danielle, it was a gradual process. It didn't happen all at once. I was growing up in East

Jerusalem is not a stroll in the park, to say the least, objected to the occupation at a very, very young age. But as I grew up and got introduced to the peace building community, I found a voice. I found myself to be a minority within a minority. As a Palestinian in Israeli society and as a woman in Palestinian society, I felt like I was not heard. And I had no hand to hold. And the way when I, through my years of study, I studied in Al-Quds University in the West Bank, a Palestinian university. And I felt so trapped as a woman and I felt so trapped as a Palestinian going through checkpoints every single day. So my fight and my participation in the co-resistance alongside Danielle in a peaceful manner is not just a fight for Palestinians. It's a fight for minorities and a fight for women in general.

Amira, how do you deal with those who perhaps were like Danielle on the Israel side and now have changed their minds after the Hamas attacks of October the 7th? They were working for peace, but they are in a different place. Because, you know, I've interviewed some like that. Yeah, it makes sense. If you ask me, even though I do respect those who decide to boycott such voices, I personally do not. I lead by compassion and empathy.

And if I ask people to approach me with compassion, I need to do the same. I can understand the same way how a Palestinian does not want to talk me with compassion, I need to do the same. I can understand the same way how a Palestinian does not want to talk to an Israeli, how an Israeli, and this is prior to October the 7th, doesn't want to talk to a Palestinian. And after the horrible atrocities that were committed on October the 7th, I can expect even more resistance from both to actually sit down and have a conversation. So my approach would be to listen first and then to see. Some people are not ready to listen yet, but we need to test the waters little by little. That doesn't mean that we need to be quiet, neither me nor Danielle.

So that would be my approach. Danielle, do you still have hope? Because as I mentioned there, there'll be a lot of people who were around your views and trying to work, especially those who live in Israel, very close to Gaza, but are now of a different mindset. So do you still retain that hope of peace? I do retain the hope for peace. I may have restructured my time framing for when we actually might see an

improvement in the situation. However, I retain my hope. And I do think that this conflict will eventually end one way or another um i'm sorry um it's it's i mean it's it's difficult territory because i also know what amira was alluding to there that you you know you will have had some very difficult conversations about you know your position as well yes yes i've had some some some difficult conversations with friends and family um who who have lost that that that sense of hope um but if anything if anything the events on october 7 as as atrocious as they were they have only strengthened my my understanding and my belief that peace is the only way that anybody in this in this stretch of land will ever experience anything similar to security or freedom or or human you know um access to human rights and and self-determination um

well danielle thank you for for that i'm sorry we had a slight difficulty with your line Amira Thank you to you as well, Amira Mohamed and Danielle Compton We're just out of time, but thank you for your company today, back tomorrow at 10 That's all for today's Woman's Hour Thank you so much for your time, join us again for the next one in their soul. It's Joni Mitchell. There are some artists that change music forever. The mastery

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