Woman's Hour - Candace Bushnell, No Queens in Europe, Early Years recruitment

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

Anita Rani speaks to Roopam Carroll, who recently sold her nursery business, and Ellen Broome, Head of Family and Childcare at the charity CORAM.Since the abdication of Queen Margarethe II of Denmark, there are no Queens in Europe. This is the first time this has happened since Queen Isabella of Spain was crowned in 1833. Will this make a difference in Europe? What difference have previous Queens in Europe made? Royal commentator Caroline Aston and journalist Emily Andrews join Anita to discuss. The creator of Sex and the City, Candace Bushnell, whose column in the New York Observer was the inspiration behind the TV series, joins Anita in the studio. The real-life Carrie Bradshaw is bringing her one-woman show about creating the hit series to the West End and then doing a UK tour. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Have you ever denied where you're from? This clip from the Netflix documentary about footballer David Beckham has gone viral. I mean, I think also we both come from families that work really hard. Both of our parents work really hard.

We're very working, working class. Be honest. I am being honest. Be honest. I am being honest. What car did your dad drive you to school in? So my dad did... No, one answer. My dad... What car was it? It you to school in? So my dad... No, one answer.

My dad... What car was it? It's not a simple answer because... What car did you get your dad to drive you to school in? It depends. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, in the 80s, my dad had a Rolls Royce. Thank you.

I love it. Absolutely brilliant. Well, off the back of that, various memes have been created. And I put one up on my own Instagram this week. And it caused quite a reaction because it hit a nerve with me. It's Victoria Beckham saying, we're from Leeds. David says, where? She says, near Leeds. And then he says, be honest. And she says, we're from Bradford. Well, like I said, it hit a massive nerve. I've known a few Bradford deniers in my time. I have never been one of them. I proudly fly the flag for my hometown and I feel no shame about who I am and where I'm from.

But what about you? Have you or someone you know ever lied about where you're from? Why do we do it? Who were you trying to impress or fit in with? Do you say you're from Wiltshire when you actually grew up in Swindon or Bedfordshire when it was Luton or maybe it's the other way around. You've ditched the double barrel surname and you deny you ever had a pony. What's going on?

At some point, it must just get exhausting pretending to be something you're not. Or maybe there's something more sinister going on. You genuinely believe owning up to who you are will hold you back because, well, people are judgy. But then should we care what people think? Well, I want to hear what you think and be honest. Where are you really from? Woman's Hour, remember, is a shame-free zone. You can get in touch with me in the usual way. Text me on 84844.

Can't wait to read these texts. You can also email me by going to our website or send me a WhatsApp note or even a voice note with your telephone voice if you want. 03700 100 444 is the number. And of course our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. Sex and the City creator Candice Bushnell, the original Carrie Bradshaw, will be joining me on the programme to tell us all about her one-woman show

revealing her real-life story behind her phenomenal success and her real-life sexual encounters. And also on the programme, who is Bushra Bibi, the imprisoned wife of Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan? We'll be finding out more. And of course, that text number once again, if you'd like to get in touch with me about anything you hear on the programme, your thoughts and opinions always welcome 84844. But first, this morning, the government has announced a new recruitment campaign designed to get more people into the early years industry. We've heard before on Woman's Hour from nursery and childcare practitioners

who say they're struggling to provide enough services for the demand and recruitment often comes up as a major issue. Well, the government's campaign is called Do Something Big and will focus on adverts encouraging people to start a career in childcare. As part of a trial, some of those who do change careers will receive a £1,000 bonus. Well, joining me to discuss this are Rupam Karal, a former nursery care provider,

and Ellen Brumey, Head of Family and Childcare at the Family and Children's Charity Quorum. And we would love to hear from you as well, of course. Do you work in childcare? Are you a parent? What do you expect from your childcare? Your thoughts on this, 84844. We'll hear from my guests and your thoughts on this in just a moment. First, let's hear from the Children's Minister, David Johnston MP. He spoke to Justin Webb on the Today programme earlier, who put to him the argument that the £1,000 incentive doesn't work. The £1,000 is a pilot in 20 areas to see if it makes a difference

to the things that we are doing in other areas. But, you know, we have made significant increases in the rates that are being paid for early years. We saw a near 10% increase in the national living wage that the Chancellor announced last year. And one big thing I want to do is really raise the status of this in the public's mind. Because when I visit nurseries and talk to childminders all over the country, one thing they say to me is they too often feel people think they're just babysitters when actually up to 80 percent of our brain development happens in those first five years and what they really are is early educators who play a key role in what happens to children as they move through school and become adults. Yeah, but with status must come higher pay, mustn't it?

I mean, it is as simple as that. Well, and look, we are doubling the amount of money that we're spending on childcare from £4 billion a year to £8 billion a year. That was the Children's Minister, David Johnston MP, speaking to Justin Webb on the Today programme. I'm going to come to Rupam, I'm going to come to you first to get your reaction on that. Thank you. Thank you, Anita. It's nice to be here.

So I feel like we definitely need more people in childcare. We need more educators. I'm not sure that this is the scheme that's going to make that happen why not it well it takes a very long time to recruit we have to go through safer recruitment we have to go through all kinds of checks to make sure that the staff that we employ are suitable to work with children in terms of safety but but also in terms of their temperament, their attitude to children, their knowledge of child development. There's an awful lot that goes into it. And I feel like with the surge in places for April, this scheme is just not going to make a difference quickly enough to help that. Now I know you shut down your own business,

Beeston Nursery, at the end of last year. What was behind you doing that? Yeah, I didn't shut it down. I sold it. So there's another provider who's taken over and, you know, I think they're going to do a great job. So why did you sell it? Well, I've had it for 11 years and over the years i've built it up into a thriving heart of the community it's been fantastic we've really i've really enjoyed being there and providing those essential services and that education to those children for all those years however i will be honest and during covid um it was a really tough time and it wiped me out. It wiped out my financial resources, my emotional reserves, and, you know, it affected my health. And so

it got to the point where I needed to step away. It was a difficult decision, but I feel I've done it in a way that, you know, works. We still have a great nursery in the area. I'm interested to know how the job tapped into your emotional reserves. What makes it such a highly pressurised environment to work? Well, we're responsible for babies and children. You know, I mean, ultimately, that's it. Parents trust us to not only keep them safe, but also to nurture them and to give them that great start in life. And it's a really intense job. It is rewarding.

It is amazing when you get that immediate feedback from children. I mean, the number of times we laugh in a day while we're working with children is fantastic. And, you know, all those little moments of reward that you get are brilliant, but there's a lot of responsibility. There's a lot of regulation to deal with. We have Ofsted to deal with. We have the finances to deal with. And to be honest deal with we have the finances to deal with and to be honest I think the finances were the biggest strain. What would have made it easier for you? Being able to recruit enough staff to be able to take on the children who wanted to come to us

we just couldn't get enough staff in for the number of children. So I wasn't able to fill the nursery because I just couldn't provide the high quality care that I wanted to do. And also better funding, better funding from the government would definitely be a huge factor. It's great that wages have gone up for individuals. However, as a small business, it's really hard to make the books balance. I'm going to bring Ellen in on this. Ellen is, Ellen Brummey, Head of Family and Child Care at the Children's Charity Coram. Welcome to Women's Hour, Ellen. What's your thoughts on this campaign? Thanks for having me today I mean I think Rupert Rupert said she said it well today's announcement is a really welcome step in recognising the

valuable and rewarding work of early years professionals and it's really great to see the government recognise and promote that and a career the value of a career in early years and to support nurseries and councils with recruitment as we know that is an issue as Rupert has said so it's a good first step but I don't think it would deliver the change that's needed. Our recent research found that nine in ten councils identify the childcare workforce as a barrier to successful delivery over the extra childcare that's being rolled out from April and I suppose this comes in a context where we have already seen growing childcare shortages across the country with only half of local areas saying they have enough childcare for working parents. And that drops to one in eight if you're a midwife or say nurse working atypical, i.e. non-standard office hours.

And that I suppose is before any expansion has happened. So today's announcement, I think, although welcome, can only and should only be a first step towards a full, earliest workful strategy that addresses those significant challenges around both recruitment, but also most importantly, retention. Staff need better pay and career progression. And we need to focus on recruiting as Rupam said

the right people with the right skills who want to do the job and that's really crucial to making this policy a success. So Rupam why is recruitment so difficult in this industry? Well it really is since Covid. Before that, I would put an advert online and within a day I would get 70, 80 applicants. And that was very common within nurseries. After COVID, we have been struggling. I've had adverts running continuously and very few applicants. I think a lot of it is to do with the pay, you know, much as I would love to pay people more as a nursery owner, the finances just aren't there to be able to do it. And people can get paid more in other sectors. Yeah, because the average salary a year starts at

fourteen and a half thousand to twenty three thousand for an experienced worker that's typically about 37 to 40 hour week correct me if i'm saying anything wrong here uh yeah hours could be from 8am to 6pm and in london it's about seven just under seventeen and a half thousand pounds average i think it's important to recognize that a significant minority don't even make minimum wage because they're apprentices or they pay for certain aspects. So a significant minority don't even make the minimum wage. And I think at the moment, early years professionals are amongst the lowest paid profession that we have.

And they do some of the most important jobs. You know, they're incredibly dedicated, really passionate. I think Rupert said it all. They want to leave the sector. It's too demanding and they don't get paid enough. And we need to reverse that trend and we need to make sure people get paid a decent wage and that they have decent career progression and training opportunities. So what about the £1,000 bonus? Is that enough? I mean, I would say that the funding is really, really welcome, but I'm not sure how well received it will be by providers and others across the country. And as I said, it can only really be the very first step on a longer journey to address all the issues that we have around

recruit. We need to retain the people when we recruit them and we need to make them stay in the profession. We want our experienced professionals to stay in the profession. They're the ones who provide that really high quality early education that all children need. So how do you make the job better, Rupam? So I used to make it better. I mean, I'm not an employer now, but by giving great working conditions for my staff, flexibility, being able to work around their own needs. I mean, a lot of childcare workers don't get the opportunity to actually spend time with their own children because of the hours. So flexibility is really key. Another thing that I find is always great is being appreciated and feeling, you know, feeling part of a community and feeling

that sense of purpose. And so those are the kinds of things that I would do as an employer. But if people can't pay their bills, it just doesn't, it doesn't matter. We've just had a message in from someone listening saying, I'm a level five qualified childcare practitioner who's worked in the profession for over six years. It was unsustainable both financially and mentally. I had to do bar work to supplement my income. You come across that, Rupam?

People having to do two jobs. I have not in my nursery. We didn't have that, but it is common. And I mean, it isn't just the finances. It's also the fact that I think maybe this is because we're a female dominated industry, but I feel like the work just isn't valued as much as it is. If I had my way, childcare would be at the centre of every government's policies, because that's how we grow our economy. Not only by providing that excellent childcare so that people can work and study, but also those essential foundations for children's education. So in 20 years time, we have those creative minds ready to work to to work it's it's a long-term thing it's

interesting isn't it because i'm just thinking about how sort of society views the profession as well because in in the conversation you just heard there that played that clip from between justin webb and the minister david johnston on the today program this morning they said that people see the profession as glorified babysitters or actually that early educators um and maybe that's the sort of view society holds until you have your own child and then all of a sudden that you want to you expect the best for your child yeah absolutely and um education is it is a fundamental part of what we do in early years. And it does get forgotten. But I think that's a pragmatic thing, because actually, for to have, but it's not necessarily the thing that drives people

to make that initial decision to seek out a nursery or a childminder. Ellen, don't... It is important to remember that the extra investment that we're seeing in the rollout has the potential to be a real game-changer for parents, including those working in the early years themselves. You know, many parents face really eye-watering childcare costs at the moment and that locks many and again particularly women

out of work we speak to women who can't afford to work but equally can't afford to not work either you know so this extra support coming is really important and will help a lot of parents and you know childcare is a really great investment it helps parents to work as Rupam says it gives children the best start in life but there are some problems in the system that we have which we need to fix if we want it to become a reality that high quality child care place for all children and all parents can get the child care they need to work. Ellen David Johnson says more men need to join the early years workforce what do you think that will make a difference? Whether it will make a difference?

Whether it will make a difference or not, I don't know. But I know that it will be welcome. It's really female dominated and I believe in diversity in all places. So in the childcare profession as well. Rupam, is there any way you'd go back to childcare providing? What would have to happen to get you back into it? I would not go back. However, I'm passionate about education. And so, you know, my future plans include supporting other nurseries and supporting other educators.

So that's the way that I'm going to have my impact and help make things better for our future generations. How long were you working in childcare for? How long did you run your business for? 11 years as a nursery owner. Before that, I'd been a teacher and a nursery teacher many years ago. And that's it, you're done now? I'm done with trying to run a small business

that provides childcare, yes. It just wasn't sustainable for me me what would have to change though um the funding and the um yeah i i really think the biggest change would be the funding but also um the funding as it's presented to parents because at the moment i feel like people don't understand what they're getting with the funded child care they imagine that they're getting year-round child care when actually it's only 38 weeks a year as a working parent 38 weeks a year just doesn't cut it so um that's an issue and also 15 hours a week doesn't help enough to be able to take on a full-time job well it's an ongoing debate that we have often here on the program Reepam Carroll and Ellen Brummey thank you so much for speaking to me about this this morning well we a spokesperson

for the Department of Education said we're rolling out the single largest expansion in childcare in England's history ensuring working parents receive 30 hours of free childcare a week. This is backed by a £204 million boost to provider funding rates last September and more than £400 million in April, making sure the sector is sustainable, can create more places and help more families make savings. Keep your thoughts coming in 84844. I'm a recent graduate, someone says, who looked into nursery work during my studies I'd previously been an au pair and had good qualifications in training in the end I decided against it as even at prominent nurseries the pay was low the days were 10 hours long and required high levels of responsibility it felt like the skills and time

required to invest in each child's needs weren't properly valued. Like I said, keep your thoughts coming in. You can also email me by going to our website. Now, there's been a big shift in Europe in the last month that may well have completely passed you by. After the abdication of Queen Marguerite II of Denmark, there are no longer any female monarchs in Europe. This is the first time this has been the case since 1833. That's more than 190 years. And we should say we're talking here about what are known as regnant queens. So

those queens who are the head of state, not those who are married to the head of state, such as our own Queen Camilla. Many of you might be thinking, well, does that matter? To answer that question, I'm joined by Royal History commentator, Aston and Royal journalist Emily Andrews. Welcome to Women's Hour, both of you. Emily, I'm going to start with you, if I may. Let's talk about Queen Marguerite II of Denmark first. She abdicated at the beginning of this year in favour of her son, Frederick, who's now king. Why did she do that? Do we know? She's never said publicly why, but I think there are some sort of signs that we can we can kind of have a look at.

I mean, you know, we look at our own Queen, Queen Elizabeth. She made it very clear in that famous speech on her 21st birthday in Cape Town that she would never, ever give resign or give up the throne. And, you know, she was working right up until the day she died. And King Charles has given sort of similar kind of signals. But I think Queen Margaret, she she had been after the death of Queen Elizabeth. She was the longest ruling monarch in Europe. In fact, I saw her actually at Westminster Hall when the Queen Elizabeth was lying in state. And she's related to our late Queen through Queen Victoria. And I actually, everyone, all the people passing through the hall,

obviously had no idea who she was, you know, the Danish queen, so what. But I saw her and she looked visibly upset, I thought, when she came to pay her respects to her sort of distant cousin. And I did wonder myself whether when she took away from her second son and his children, her grandchildren, their their his um and his children her great her grandchildren their kind of prince and princess titles and then a year later she said she was going to um step down in favor of her son i did wonder whether you know what queen elizabeth working up to the day had she died had had some impact on her she does have a bad back she's you know in her late

80s and i think she probably just thought you know what it's time and when we're looking at monarchy in general both from our own you know monarchy in Britain which obviously you know King Charles is head of state of you know 13 other realms around the world not just here in the United Kingdom I think you do want to look at sort of the way monarchy is presented and you know we do live in a society, in a world still, where, you know, youth and vigour is still very much prized. And perhaps she thought, you know, handing over to Frederick and his glamorous wife, Queen Mary, would kind of increase the popularity of the monarchy in Denmark.

Sure. Caroline, let's bring you in. First time without a queen in nearly 200 years in Europe. So take us back through history a little bit, if you could. Tell us about the roles of female monarchs in Europe. Well, I think you could sum up the roles of both queen regnants and queen consorts with a little verse that was being sniggered about in Spain in the early years of the 20th century. Spain at that point had a queen consort who was English, one of Queen Victoria's many granddaughters.

I mean, what a gynecological assembly line Queen Victoria was, along with Prince Albert, Queen Ina of Spain, who was pregnant time and time again. Six children, four of them, yes, sons. It has to be said, though, that of those four, two were born hemophiliac, one was born deaf and dumb, and it was the third son that was born without any disability.

But this is the verse, and it's worth listening to. One month of pleasure, eight months of pain, three months of leisure, then at it again. And I think that kind of sums up the experience of Queen's Regnant and Queen's Consort. They were, if you like, human pawns on this great chessboard of human chess. And of course, don't forget that for centuries

there was very little romantic love when it came to royal marriages. This was about property power, consolidation, marrying people off. And I think looking back, so many royal women laboured under the tremendous strain of wondering if the baby would be a boy. Of course, they suffered, many of them with undiagnosed postnatal depression. In fact, the high expectation that royal women carried, aristocratic women too, was the most enormous pressure and strain. I mean, as for Henry VIII, don't get me started there.

Divorced, beheaded, died. One child by each of his first three wives. Of course, the first two, Mary Tudor, Elizabeth I, were leapfrogged by the very frail third child, Edward VI. But of those three, my goodness me, Elizabeth I, what a queen. Yeah, well, and her sister. And then so we've got the queens. Let's just talk about the queens that we've had in this country. You've mentioned that Queen Elizabeth I, we've had Victoria,

Queen Elizabeth II. Do we remember them because they were genuinely better monarchs or because they were women? And here's a question for both of you, actually. Do you think they were better because they knew that there was less room for failure for them? Because kings, as you mentioned, Henry VIII, can get away with a lot more because they're blokes. Well, now there's a question. They stand out, I think, because I have to say, when the women were given the full crack of the whip,

they did a very good job. I mean, Elizabeth I, I think, one of the first great controllers of image. She knew all about image and how to present herself and really used her virginity in not marrying as a great big juicy carrot to dangle before the donkeys who were ruling Europe, you might say. Queen Victoria, yes, I mean, you've got the gynaecological assembly line. She really was the grandmother of Europe, gifted in a way,

but also very resistant to change. I always think it's amazing that a woman who was a queen empress didn't think women should vote because they kind of weren't up to it. There's a question to ponder. And poor old Queen Anne, 1702 to 1714, pregnant at least 17 times, leaving no heir at all, male or female. We remember people for that, but also for their character, how in patriarchal societies, I think they did pretty darn well. Emily? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And also, I think the fact that they were unusual, you know, to have a queen regnant, as the head of state is still unusual, and particularly as Carolyn says, you know, you know, going back sort of 10, you know, 100, 500 years, I think one of the reasons we remember great queens like elizabeth the first you know don't forget that shakespeare had quite a lot of you know how he played quite a large part

in that and you know shaping her image and also shaping the image of her sister bloody mary mary the first you know in terms of the wars of religion um so you i think you also have to think about women tend to live longer as well so queen Queen Regnance perhaps have more time on the throne. But I think it is interesting that Queen Regnance still hold fascination. I mean, as we look at Europe at the moment, we are having a time of kings and we look at our own monarchy and we're going to have William and then George. I have to say that I was sad. George is lovely, by the way. I've had the privilege of meeting him. But I was sad that george is lovely by the way i've had the privilege of meeting him but i was sad that the princess of wales didn't have a girl because of course the late queen queen elizabeth um we

changed the law the succession to the crown act came into effect in may 2013 while kate was still pregnant specifically to say that an elder daughter would not lose an elder sister would not lose her place in succession if a boy was born after her. And if you think about this was only changed in this country in 2013, I mean, that's not very long ago, is it? Does it make a difference in terms of public perception if the monarch is a king or a queen?

Wow. Yeah, I think so. As a royal journalist, I think we are more fascinated with women. I think we are more interested in, you know, their fashion. I think we're more interested in their image. Are they like us? Are they unlike us? We are more interested, you know, because biologically they can have children. We are interested in, you know, are they still now their children? Are they going to have children? What do their children look like?

And I look at some of the crown princesses in Europe, Princess Katerina Amalia in the Netherlands. She's the next monarch after her father. And there's huge amounts of interest in her. And, you know, we don't see as much written about the crown prince of Denmark, Prince Christian, as we do. And, you know, Princess Victoria of Sweden, she's the crown princess. I do think there is still, for men and women, this fascination, you know, on women. Caroline? Well, I'm going across to Norway here, where we have a most controversial royal wife, the wife of the future king of Norway.

And I'm going to pronounce this horribly wrong, I know. Meta Marit, I do apologise to any Norwegian listeners. It's not my strong point. But she is completely different, out of the run of normal royal brides. In what way? Well, for a start, when she married, she was a single mother,

and she came trailing a wee bit of sulphur behind her. Her father's second wife was a stripper, would you believe? She'd had a couple of relationships with convicted men. One had been convicted for drug offenses, another was a convicted felon. So she had a son when she met the Crown Prince of Norway, and since then has become a little bit mired in controversies. It was a surrogacy issue she became involved in in India and you're not going to believe this, but was even connected to Jeffrey Epstein. This is one of the names that came up.

So really you have someone who's totally unlike someone who would at one point have been considered a suitable royal bride and we have moved away from that i mean in recent times here we have the marmite duchess the duchess of sussex who of course was divorced an american think back to 1936 being divorced in an american costa king of throne back then edward viii but of course i think most of us looked at the former Meghan Markle and thought, well, here we have someone who embodies all the immense changes that have gone on culturally, ethnically, in every sense in this country. And of course, then, of course, we have Megxit, the idea that you can choose not to do royal duty. It's a fascinating, evolving tapestry with occasionally a lovely thread of scandal running through it.

Emily, what about the difference it makes to the job as monarch? Does it make a difference if it's a queen or a king? I think it does. I mean, when I was reporting on our late Queen, Queen Elizabeth, and then, you know, writing her obituaries and focusing a lot on her life and what she achieved often particularly kind of in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s she was the only woman in the room in terms of you know when she was doing state visits when she was promoting Britain abroad that kind of soft diplomacy that we often talk about with royals and I think she absolutely used her femininity she could you know take a male member of male head of state on the dance floor, perhaps, and, you know, use her kind of femininity in a way that a man can't. And so I think that and that marked her out. It marked her as different. It meant that, you know, a lot of male heads of state perhaps would prefer to have her as a, you know,

to come to the UK or to, you know, entertain her in the Duke of Edinburgh. That's not to say, though, that she was a feminist queen. I think sometimes we look at these famous female monarchs, queen regnants, and we think, well, they must be promoting women's rights, they must be standing up for all the rest of us. But of course, I mean, I, I, I did, Queen Elizabeth was a, was a woman of her time. And although she was monarch and head of state, she very much viewed roles in quite gendered way. I mean, in, in, in the palace, she never had a female private secretary, her highest courtier. She never had a female head of, you know, her money, the privy purse. She never employed women in senior positions and she still had kind female head of you know her money um the privy purse she never employed women in senior positions and she still had kind of ladies and waiting so i think just because you

have a female monarch doesn't necessarily make them a feminist queen fascinating conversation thanks to both of you for for joining me to speak about that carolyn aston and emily andrews keep your thoughts coming in on various things 84844 I was talking at the beginning of the programme about whether or not you deny where you're really from and why we do it loads of you getting in touch Carol says I'm 73 years old and freely admit that I was born in

Newcastle but I was made in Yorkshire what a lovely combination I was 5 when we moved to Keithley and later as a teenager I lived in Hull can't understand why anyone would deny it. It's God's own country after all. Hear, hear, Carol. And another message here.

My daughter was born and lived in Essex at the time when Essex girl jokes were prevalent. When she went to university in Leeds she introduced herself as from London. She later discovered

that a good female friend from Essex was also using the same story. Another one here. When I was 20 I was quite embarrassed about not going to a public school. My peers at uni and the doctors who I was training with would ask, where did you go to school? What a terrible question, to which I would squirm out

the name of the comprehensive. Now that I'm relatively successful, people express surprise when I say, oh, I went to a state school, so I like doing it now. Yes, absolutely. Do it with pride. 84844 is the number to text. You can also email by going to our website. Now, earlier this week, the former prime minister of Pakistan and former cricket captain Imran Khan was sentenced to jail and ordered to pay millions of pounds worth of fines after allegations of corruption and leaking state secrets.

But sentenced alongside Khan was an altogether more enigmatic figure, someone you might not have heard of, Imran Khan's third wife, Bushra Bibi. She's known among followers as a faith healer, a mystic, a devoutly pious Muslim woman, which might seem a bit of a contrast with the former playboy cricketer Imran Khan. Well, Dr. Farzana Shaikh, Associate Fellow at Chatham House, joins me now to explain more about this intriguing woman at the heart of Pakistan's politics. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Farzana. Guessing that many of us might have heard of Imran Khan before,

but maybe not heard of Bush Rabibi. So give us a quick introduction. Who is she? Well, as you said, she is an intriguing figure. But we do have a few facts about her. She is from a well-to-do landed family in the Punjab. She's about 40 years old. She was married prior to her marriage in Braungan she is said to be the mother of five children possibly a grandmother and a few years ago she made something of a name for herself amongst a very select group of devotees as a spiritual faith healer as as a holy woman, otherwise commonly known in Pakistan

as a Pirni, the female equivalent of the holy man, the Pir. And she was attached to the shrine of the 13th century Muslim saint and mystic Baba Farid, whose shrine is in the small town about 150 kilometers south of Lahore, a town known as Park Patan, where Imran Khan paid frequent visits. And we understand that his visits, the number of his visits increased during the years 2015-2016, which is about the time he is also said to have met Bushra Bibi, introduced to her through a friend. Bushra seems to have carefully curated her public image as a religious woman. And of course, religiosity is important to the story of Bushra and Imran Khan and the politics of Pakistan today. Why is that?

Indeed, indeed. Well, Pakistan, the first state avowedly created in the name of Islam, religion and Islam in particular, looms large not only in the lives of ordinary Pakistanis, but looms large in Pakistan's political and public life. As far as Bushra Bibi's own role in this scenario is concerned, I mean, she is regarded by many as having been instrumental to advancing Imran Khan's career. As we all know, Imran Khan made something of a name for himself, not just as a trickster, but also as a womanizer, some would say philanderer, the father of illegitimate children. He needed to clean up that image if he was going to advance in politics in Pakistan. And she helped reinvent this devout Imran Khan that we know today.

And Imran Khan, who is said to be determined to transform Pakistan into a model Islamic state. Yes. Is it a bit of a surprise that his life partner choice, marrying a woman who's never seen without a veil and a burqa? Yes. And it's wholly exceptional when you think of Pakistan, because, of course, this is a country which, you know, for all its flaws, boasted and was regarded widely as an expression of Muslim modernism. I mean, Pakistan's national leaders were always partnered by women, you know, who were not in full seclusion as Bushra Bibi is. I mean, and of course, we've had a female prime minister in Benazir Bhutto. I mean, there has always been an accent on female modesty, no question about that. But she is exceptional in the extent to which she has gone so far in cultivating this aura of religiosity and mystery. Is she unusual in Pakistan now?

Or is she sort of representative of a new kind of Muslim feminine piety that's growing? To some extent, to some extent, she is. And I think what's interesting about her is that, willingly or not, she expresses a certain current within, let's say, faith-based feminism of women, Muslim women, who seek agency over the conduct and expression of their piety. And this is done in opposition to the rules set by an orthodox male clergy. The point, however, in all this is that women still do not have agency. Muslim women do not have agency over their sexuality, though still remain governed by the patriarchy in Pakistan. And there have been allegations that she's not so pious.

We've heard that Bushra's first husband is accusing her of various things. Yes, well, you know, earlier on you mentioned that, you know, she's been implicated and now convicted in a case of corruption. She has been sentenced to 14 her prison sentence at home, which has been declared as a sub jail. But also today in court, she and her husband were before a judge and indeed her ex-husband, husband who is taking her to court for having breached Islamic regulations prior to remarriage. Normally, a Muslim woman is expected to allow at least three menstrual cycles to elapse before contracting a marriage. And this is, of course, for various reasons.

One, to determine whether or not she might be pregnant or whether her husband has had a change of heart and wants to return to her. So basically, the idea here is a three-month period of abstinence. Now, she and Imran Khan are said to have breached those rules and contracted a marriage before the expiry of that term. And of course, this is now being heard in court. So there you are. Thank you very much, Dr. Farzana Shaikh, enlightening us on Bush Ravibi, the former Prime Minister of Pakistan's wife, Bush Rav are. Thank you very much, Dr. Farzana Sheikh, enlightening us on Bush Ravibi, the former prime minister of Pakistan's wife, Bush Ravibi.

Thank you very much. Now, earlier in the program, our royal history commentator, Caroline, mentioned links between the crown princess of Norway and Jeffrey Epstein. We should say that the Norwegian royal palace has stated that the crown princess ceased contact with Epstein and she has apologized. Lots of you getting in touch with me about whether or not you ever denied where you grew up.

I was an independent singer-songwriter and I don't like telling people I went to a private school, says someone here. I worry about being judged or people thinking I haven't got to where I am on my own merits. I assume people will picture me as somewhere like Eton and that Daddy has lots of connections with record labels. In reality, it was a tiny school with poor facilities. I was there on a full bursary. Nonetheless, I hate telling people. And another message here. My late mother denied that her accent was Irish.

When asked what it was, she replied, European. I love this. The long-lasting impact of the anti-Irish prejudice she suffered coming to England in the 1950s. Goodness me. 84844. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now to my next guest.

I have a real treat for Sex and the City Fang today. The series that has been said to have redefined modern relationships in the 90s and noughties, for some at least. For six years, it told the stories of four women living in New York City navigating the complications of relationships and careers, a celebration of no-strings-attached affairs, cocktails, female friendships. It was hugely popular and still is today. Well in the studio with me now I'm delighted to say is international best-selling novelist and author Candice Bushnell whose column in the New York Observer and subsequent novels were the inspiration behind the TV series, which starred Sarah Jessica Parker and won multiple Emmy, Golden Globe and Screen Actors Guild Awards

and led to two feature films. The original series finished in 2004 but was revived in 2021 in the sequel and just like that. Here to bring her one-woman show to the West End and then a UK tour, True Tales of Sex, Success and Sex in the sequel and Just Like That. Here to bring her one-woman show to the West End and then a UK tour, true tales of sex success and sex in the city is the real-life Carrie Bradshaw. Candice, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you.

You are a writer, not a performer, but how has the transition been? One-woman show on stage yourself. It's actually been incredible. It's been a great experience. And I mean, I've learned quite a bit. You know, being a writer, I have a lot of discipline. So I have really just applied that discipline to being on stage. But the reality is that, I mean, knock on wood, I don't actually find it difficult at all. And I find it very, very natural. So it's interesting to find something at an older age that comes very naturally to you. And, you know, I love being on stage. I have a ton of energy. And, you know, I wouldn't do it if I felt, you know, uncomfortable or nervous doing it. I've seen a clip of you and you look very comfortable on that stage.

Yes. So where's the energy come from? How'd you get your energy? It just comes from inside. Wonderful. I mean, you know, it always has. I'm always doing something creative. I do things, you know, I do a lot of things on spec. I do things

just to see if I can do them creatively. So it's, you know, it's pretty much, I would say, in line with that. And I did go to acting school briefly when I first came to New York. But. I didn't have the passion for it. That I had for writing. So. And you're a storyteller. And now it's you on stage. Yes. Telling your own story.

Yes. Why was it. Why is it time to reveal the real. The real. The real Carrie Bradshaw step forward. You know it was something that. I had the opportunity to do it and I took it. And the show is really the origin story of Sex and the City. It's how I wrote Sex and the City, how hard I worked to get there, why I invented Carrie Bradshaw and what happened to me afterward. And it's mixed in with the,

you know, my story of coming to New York to make it. At 19? When I was 19, I actually was 18. But I moved to New York when I was 19. And with a couple of naughty sex stories thrown in there for good measure. And I play a game with the audience real or not real, because there's so many things that happened on the TV show that happened in my real life, but they were either better or worse. And do they get them right? Not all of them. Not all of them. but some of them, yes, I would say. Yeah, true tales of sex and success and sex in the city.

Yes. Intriguing. Your first performance night in Southampton, how are you feeling? I'm feeling great, actually, and feeling excited. It's wonderful to do the show in a big theater. And I did it off-Broadway in New York, and I've done it at the Cafe Carlisle, which is a very storied place to do it in New York,

and Bobby Short has performed there, and that's a cabaret version. So I have a couple of different versions of it that I do. And, and I love doing it. And it's, you know, you really sort of ride on the energy of the audience. You know, the hardest performances to do are a matinee with people over 85. That's difficult. The best performances are women.

They come with their girlfriends. I've had groups of women come. I've had an entire sorority sisters group come. And do they come particularly to hear you talk about sex freely, which is what you did with the series, right? There are a couple of naughty sex stories, but it's really has much more of a feminist bent. And it's really about my philosophy of really being your own Mr. Big, as opposed to finding your Mr. Big. And I've been, I mean, really driven ever since I was a little girl to try to show women a different way to think as opposed to what society and the patriarchy tells women we should think and we should do and what we should feel. And as a little girl, I never

felt any of those things. And I was actually very angry because the world was such an incredibly obviously sexist place back in the 1960s. And I was always really inspired to somehow try to make change, you know, get a message out to women in the world and to somehow change the world for women. And I had absolutely no idea how I was going to do that. So my creativity is really a reflection of that. And, you know, that's what inspires me. And I have so many women who come up to me afterward and just say they feel so inspired. So yes, there are a couple of naughty sex stories. But it's about empowering women. But it's really about empowering women and being your own Mr. Big.

And, you know, I take the audience through my life from, I mean, really from a little girl to the age that I am now in my 60s. And for those people listening who don't know, you, as you said, you moved to New York when you were 19. And then eventually started writing your column. And tell us a bit more about who you were in the 80s and 90s and the New York City and the scene that you're in and why and how the reaction to what you were writing about? Well, I think I was pretty much the same person that I am now. I started writing professionally at a very early age, at 19. And then I wrote for women's magazines because as a woman, you know, if you were a woman and you didn't go to an Ivy League school, then that was pretty much where you could get work, was writing for women's magazines. And I wrote really what were precursors to Sex and the City. I was writing

about women, money, power, sex, and where those things intersect. So I was writing about that all through the 80s and the 90s. And, you know, even back in the 80s, I was really wanting to have my own column. And I just, you know, never gave up. And then finally in the 90s, and this is one of the stories that I tell in True Tales. Finally, in the 90s, I got an opportunity to have my own column. And that column was Sex and the City.

And that really was my big break, even though I'd already been writing professionally for 15 years. Why do you think the series had such an impact? And why do you think it continues to resonate today? I mean, honestly, I think it had an impact because I mean, everybody says it's inspired by my work. It actually isn't. The title really based on my work. And the fact that my work was really about something very specific. It was about women was a new kind of independent woman who was in her 30s, who had had a career now since the 80s and was single and did not need a man in the same way that women had needed a man basically to access the income stream. Yeah. In, you know, all of the time before really the 80s when we were encouraging women to go to college to get their MRS. I wonder how different it was.

To get a career as opposed to having their MRS. So I saw this is really a new kind of woman who doesn't need a man in the same way. She does not need a man to survive. And what does that mean? That means that she has a very different sex life. Hence, Samantha. We love Samantha. I wonder how different it would be if you were writing it now. Well, I think the sex in the city years are now, you know, they're a kind of normal phase in women's lives. You know, there's, they go to college, and then they have their sex in the city years,

that's a time of, you know, freedom. And then they have what I call your reproductive years. Well, there was a report out today saying that women are, for the first time in the 1950s, the average age was, you know, in the 20s. And now women are having their first child at 32. Yes. So that's changed. You were married for 10 years. You're currently single, out dating.

Are you on the apps? Yes, I am on a couple of apps. How's that going? I am. You know, probably the same as it's going for everybody. You know, I'm not particularly fussed about finding someone. I'm really busy. I have a lot of projects that I'm working on. And

if somebody comes along and it works, that's great. The dating show sounds really interesting that you're working on. Tell us about that. Yes. It's a dating show for women over 50 in their 50s and 60s. And it would put women in the driver's seat. I mean, the idea would be four friends who are going to really take basically a month to be in a very immersive dating experience. And that is loosely based on the last book I wrote, Is There Still Sex in the City, which is all about women dating in their 50s and 60s. Well, we cannot wait. And I want to wish you all the best with your tour as well. Thank you. Come and see us anytime. We'll put the kettle on again. Candice Bushnell will be at the Mayflower Theatre in Southampton tonight and at the Palladium in

London next Wednesday, the 7th of February, and then on tour across the UK until February the 18th. Thank you so much. And thanks to all of you for joining me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour at 4pm. And thanks to all of you who've been getting in touch. I grew up in Leicestershire, someone says. We were always encouraged to use the long A and the long short A being considered common by our mother.

At the age of 50, I trained as a science teacher. One of my first lessons, I asked my students to look at the graph with a long A and the long short A being considered common by a mother. At the age of 50, I trained as a science teacher. One of my first lessons, I asked my students to look at the graph with a long A and was greeted with a chorus of mocking. It's been a short A for me ever since. Quite right. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. 30 years ago, Britain's farms were hit by an epidemic

of an infectious brain disorder. They called it mad cow disease. I'm Lucy Proctor, and in The Cows Are Mad from BBC Radio 4, I tell the story of a very weird time in our history. The media started calling me the mad cow professor. Mad cow disease rampaged through Britain, first killing cows and then humans. And the thing is, after all this time,

nobody knows for sure where mad cow disease originally came from. The general feeling is that we will never know the answer. Subscribe to The Cows Are Mad on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.