Woman's Hour - Candice Brathwaite, Protests, Misogyny

Episode Date: June 12, 2020

Candice Brathwaite set up the group called Make Motherhood Diverse in order to set right a wrong. When pregnant, she didn't recognise anything in books and online that she could relate to. So she set up the group to reflect a broader spectrum of motherhood. She tells us about her debut book I Am Not Your Baby Mother, a guide to life as a Black British mum.Protests are expected this weekend across the UK. So what do you do if your child wants to go? What conversations should parents be having beforehand? What do children need to know about their rights and safety? We hear from Monique Bouffé who's a member of the Black Protest Legal UK Support team as well as Talja Parkinson who has three sons: her oldest, who's 16, has been protesting with his friends. The link between misogyny and domestic violence will be discussed by MPs next week as part of their line-by-line examination of the Domestic Abuse Bill. Some people want misogyny to be classed as a hate crime. Will it happen?Photo credit: Zoe Timmers

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast from Friday the 12th of June 2020. Hello, good morning to you. Welcome to the programme. Candice Brathwaite is one of my guests this morning. She's the author of a powerful new book called I'm Not Your Baby Mother,

What It's Like to Be a Black British Mother. So Candice Brathwaite live on the programme today. Also, protesting. What will you say to your child if they are planning to go to a protest over the course of this weekend? What advice, what useful advice do you need to be able to give them if that's the case?

And something perhaps a little more niche, the mother and daughter team who train camels. They are later in the programme today at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. We're also there on Instagram. And you can email the programme whenever you like via our website, bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour. Now, you can't really look at the front pages of any of the newspapers today and try to convince me that misogyny isn't a problem. We want to start this morning with a conversation about a group of women MPs and charities who are urging the government to treat misogyny as a hate crime. This within the government's new domestic abuse bill, which is still going through Parliament.

It does seem to have been making its journey for a long time. It hasn't quite got to the end of the journey. It isn't yet law, but that could happen before the end of this year. Let's talk to Christine Jardin, who's a Lib Dem MP for Edinburgh West and that party's Home Affairs spokesperson. And Sue Fish is able to join us too, former Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire Police, which piloted the misogyny hate crime policy back in 2016. So just remind everybody what happened in 2016. I know we talked about it on the programme. What actually happened? Good morning. Well, we didn't actually pilot anything. We implemented something.

That hasn't changed in Nottinghamshire Police today. And a number of other police forces have adopted similar policies across the country. So what we did in Nottinghamshire was we listened to the evidence, both locally and nationally. And we made the decision that misogyny was a significant driver of violent crime against women. It was grossly underreported and it compounded, if you like, I think a sort of a history of where policing has not listened or taken significant enough account of women's experiences. And so we created misogyny as a hate crime by naming the problem. And I think that made a significant change in terms of the attitudes and behaviours, not just of my officers at the time, but also in our communities.

So really simply, what happened? What was able to occur the day after you implemented this that couldn't have happened the day before? Well, women were able to phone and report what had happened to them, whether that was something at the lower end of the scale, but probably still a crime. So stalking, harassment, assault, sexual assault, rape, kidnap were some of the matters that women reported to us. But because our culture, sadly, not only tolerates and excuses, but actually normalises those sorts of behaviours towards women, and those are all criminal behaviours towards women, women mostly didn't feel that they were able to report to the police that it wasn't legitimate, that the police were perhaps needed to deal with real crime. That is all real crime. So women were empowered to actually recognise that this wasn't normal, this wasn't acceptable.

And also for those men who perpetuate those sorts of behaviours, sending a really clear message that they were not acceptable at all. So, Christine, you would presumably like this to happen all over the country? Yes, I mean, that is the thing. It's been shown in Nottinghamshire that they're able to chart what is happening and record domestic abuse where it's appropriate. It's, you know, misogynistic and a hate crime. And what we would like is for police forces all over the country to be able to do this, to be able to treat it in a way. It's not to create a new crime because it wouldn't do that. It would just mean that it was recorded in a different way.

And misogyny is everywhere. As you say, it's all over the front pages of the papers today. And it's almost, as Sue said, become normalised. And actually, it was Sophie Maskell from the Nottingham Women's Centre who once described misogyny as the soil in which violence against women and girls grows. And what we're trying to do with this amendment is recognise that and tackle it, because I'm a great believer that the only way that you ever really tackle something like domestic abuse is by getting it at its root, treating it at its root and preventing it. We shouldn't be. Yes, we should be treating it more seriously as a crime, but we should be trying to prevent it. And if we can identify misogyny, if we can tackle it, then we will begin to stamp out domestic

abuse, which is the whole aim of this bill. Is there really any opposition to the domestic abuse bill at the moment in Parliament? There are, yes, there are one or two people, obviously, who to it but it has a great wave of support across the house and this amendment itself amendment 84 about um creating misogyny as a hate crime and having um police record it in that way um is put forward by stella creasy there's a labour mp myself a liberal democrat mp and liz saville roille Roberts from Plaid Cymru. And we've seen in every debate about the bill so far, support from right across the House. And it was originally a bill which was put forward by Theresa May. And at one of the debates we had, she spoke very eloquently

and very movingly about how she sees this as, in some ways, her legacy. It is a landmark bill. It's a once in a generation opportunity to tackle one of the continuing evils in our society, domestic abuse. And I actually feel quite privileged to be on the committee that's dealing with it. Yeah, I mean, we have we have discussed it any number of times over the years on Woman's Hour. And it is now years because it has taken so long to get through Parliament. I appreciate COVID has happened. Unfortunately, Brexit consumed a lot of parliamentary time before that. But what is at the centre of this bill? What difference will it make to the lives of vulnerable women and girls? There's so much at the centre of this. It will define really what domestic abuse is. It will tackle at its root course. It will protect women. It will say it's not acceptable. We're also hoping that, and one of the things that this amendment about misogyny will do,

is also ratify the Istanbul Convention, which the government signed eight years ago. It was its eighth anniversary this week, and it's still not ratified. It would strengthen the status of the legislation, which would do that. I mean, what we want to do is recognise that women and girls are exposed to higher risk of gender-based violence than men. I'm not saying for a minute that it's only women that are subjected to domestic abuse, but there is a much higher rate. And it's heartbreaking the stories that we hear every day, the evidence that we heard of women forced, still forced, to leave home rather than be abused. What we want is a situation where we stop the abuse and the women don't have to go out and look for somewhere else to live and look for sanctuary.

And during COVID-19, that has been a major problem, that there's so much pressure on people. Sue, I imagine you were a police officer for quite some time before you rose to become a chief constable. What do you recall about your early days in the police force in terms of the way domestic abuse was dealt with? It was a very male dominated organisation or service. It still is. And very much from a very traditional way that. And when I first started back in the early 80s then domestic violence didn't exist it was a domestic dispute and a man was king in his own home type attitude of you know that didn't matter it was sort of brushed under the carpet yet policing has a very different approach now

but there is still so much more that needs to be done to protect women and girls and needs to be done consistently. That's not just down to leadership in some police forces, but that is consistent across the country because misogyny is absolutely a clear driver of men's domestic abuse of women. And as Christine said, the disproportionality around impact and consequences for women is incredibly significant. Yeah. And as Christine alluded to, the rise in domestic murders during the course of lockdown

has been horrific, not unexpected, but horrific nevertheless. Perhaps the fact that it's not unexpected takes away, I don't know, it takes away from the fact that it's happened at such a rate. Christine, what would you say about that? I think when you say it takes away from the fact that it's not unexpected, I think that is sad. No, I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that.

No, I appreciate that. I think what, and you asked saying it's right. I'm just saying that. No, I appreciate that. I think what, and you asked about the domestic abuse bill and about misogyny, and I think the numbers that we've seen, the horrific numbers that we've seen, and the fact that, as you say, we do know that it is a problem. It's a problem of the culture, and the legislation is aiming to change the culture and the way that we view domestic abuse and the way that we view domestic abuse

and the way that we tackle domestic abuse and giving women the rights to feel safe in their own home that they are denied because of their gender. And that's not acceptable. It's not acceptable in any time. It's not acceptable in the 21st century. And I do think that, you know, in this, as Sue said, the police have an important role to play

and the attitude to the crime itself has changed, as Sue said, but we need to change it more. And we need to recognise that this amendment wouldn't create a new crime, but it would identify the motivation behind the crimes. And that's what matters is getting to the motivation changing the culture and recognizing you mentioned the front pages today the suggestion on the front page is that somehow it's acceptable to slap someone that's not abuse

it is abuse and we have to do everything we can everything we can possible with this bill everything we can to recognize that the culture is changing, but it hasn't changed enough. Thank you very much. Powerful words from the Lib Dem MP for Edinburgh West. That's Christine Jardine. You also heard from the former Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire Police, Sue Fish.

And if you want to get involved there, at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, if you've got a view. Now, a warm welcome to candice brathwaite good morning to you candice how are you good morning i'm fine thank you good well now the founder of the group make motherhood diverse um also a very important contributor to a program that if you heard it you will not have forgotten but i want to mention it it was on women's hour last summer when we discussed the Embrace report into high rates of maternal mortality in black British women.

I do urge people who didn't hear that programme at the time to go and to search for Woman's Hour Black Maternal Health and listen to that programme in its entirety because it's really important stuff. Candice, I don't know whether at the time you'd started work on your book, which is I'm Not Your Baby Mother, which is out now. Were you already working on it important stuff um candice i don't know whether at the time you'd started work on your book which

is i'm not your baby mother which is out now were you already working on it when you contributed to the show uh last summer no yes yes i was was i had started it it was in its very early drafty skeleton format and i remember that leaving that show and just feeling terribly overwhelmed and sad because me and many other women on that show had been campaigning about the embrace stats for quite a while before coming on that show being on that show really amplified the matter at hand and yeah I left feeling very heavy. Now your book is about a lot more than what happened to you when you gave birth to your daughter but if you don't mind I do think we just need to mention the horrific experience you had can you just outline it for us?

Yeah I had an emergency c-section after 19 hours of induced I was discharged the next day, started to feel very sick, dizzy, sweating on the mattress. I had three different wives who all said I was overthinking it. I should stay off certain motherhood forums online because I was just making myself sick with worry. One night through exhaustion, my baby falls asleep on my chest

and she wriggles down and the weight of her baby body made a septic sack explode. It was beneath my C-section wound, rushed back to hospital, being told I'm slipping into septic shock, surgery and then intensive for five weeks. So essentially,

I didn't really start to get to know Esme until she was about six weeks old. That's it in short form. Yeah, well, that obviously had a colossal impact on the way you were able to be a parent in those initial very important weeks and months. But also quite simply, your pain was not taken seriously you kept mentioning it and you weren't heard no not at all and at the time that was almost seven years ago and I didn't have a lot of mummy friends and so for some reason I had it had to have been a unique experience as the years went on and I started to speak to other black women who were mothers I was like oh there is a pattern here so many of us weren't listened to so many of us had you know cuts in very intimate places without the anesthetic um given to to come into our system so we're feeling all of this pain

and there just seems to be a theme of uh black women, not just in this country, but in America also, when it's time to seek medical attention, you really are the bottom of the list. And it's hard to get people to believe you. Well, as I say, I don't want to consume the whole of this interview with that very difficult experience for you. But I do urge people to go back and listen to that programme. And you make your points very, very powerfully. The title of your book, I'm Not Your Baby Mother is, well, it's deliberately provocative, isn't it? Oh, yes. This isn't the book I wanted to write, but it's the book that caught me. And actually, I came up with that title. In a way to kind of see if my publishers were right for me.

I thought, well, if they like the book, but they don't like the title, we're not going to get off to a flying start because I want the title to kind of be like a punch in the gut. The term baby mother, where I come from in the black community, is so derogatory. And this is before it was co-opted and made cool and Americanized by saying baby mother no baby mother is really like the mark of the beast in terms of the way you're trying to describe a woman or the way a man is speaking about the woman of child and I really wanted the title alone to be impactful um my publishers packed me all the way, as we know, and I think being provocative has paid off, if I'm honest. You are, I don't know how to put this really, but I'm going to say you're quite hard on black mothers. Indeed, you're very honest about the way your mother was able to mother you.

And I say that deliberately because she was up against it wasn't she yeah and I I don't I don't think I'm hard mothers gosh I hope that's not how it was forgive me if that came out wrong I think you're probably I suppose you make it clear that your mum for example and other women like her were preparing their daughters for the world as it is, not as it should be. Is that okay? That is bang on. They're preparing us to understand that in terms of the pyramid I describe in the book. Black women aren't even on the pyramid. We are the columns holding up everyone. We are to be seen and not heard.

We're currently to be of service. Medical professionals aren't going to listen to you you are more than likely if you even slightly complain about feeling a little bit blue you could be set and your mental health will be questioned and so um i wanted that to be very very clear black british hood is by no means a walk in the park. And like the motherhood material that has been added to this never really explored that or how it could be a British mother. Yes, you go where other people wouldn't have gone, I think it's fair to say yes completely and um I did that completely understanding that I perhaps made a pariah of sorts but to be frank I think the power of the book and that the people I wanted to reach that I had in mind was a 16 year old black girl who perhaps didn't have that auntie type voice in her

ear telling her that you may perhaps go through everything I've been through in this book but look you get through to the other side I'm very that it's caught the attention of everyone I had a 50 year old white man message me earlier this week saying how he thought the book was glorious and I did chuckle because he is the complete opposite of what I'm waiting for but I knew that to be able to young black girl I had to be honest couldn't I couldn't from certain topics just because it made me feel uncomfortable or I thought I was exposing myself and this in black British literature I don't know if I'll ever get another book. So I thought, you know what, if this is your first and only deal, make it count for something. Well, can I just say to you, I'm not an expert, but I do think you will get another book deal.

So I don't think you need to worry about that. And obviously, the timing of this is, well, from obviously obvious perspectives, really difficult. However, it's worth recognising and we need to celebrate this. This week, for the first time ever, Renny Eddo-Lodge's book, Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race, is at the top of the British nonfiction charts. And Bernadine Evaristo's Girl, Woman, Other is at number one in the fiction charts. Now, this is a first and it's really notable, isn't it? It's so notable, but also speaking for myself and maybe for other black women in this industry, we're in this terrible place where, of course, you want to celebrate your success but for me the realization is that my work has been amplified because most of us watched black man be lynched on our phone

screens the amplification of the black lives matter movement and all of a sudden the world wanting to learn about how to be more diverse and inclusive about the struggles and the lives and the pain and even the of black people has sent people flocking to bookshops just just trying to buy all the books they can buy all the black people they can and so I speak for anyone else I'm I'm on a seesaw I'm like this is my book and I'm a Sunday Times bestseller. That's not something I expected at all. But the amplification of my work because of something so terrible and I'm trying to be in the middle to emotions. Yes, I can really see that. it's both the best and worst of

times isn't it for you yeah completely and like i said i right i do want over the moon i just this has been the backdrop to how quickly my in um picked up i did this look i feel like a boy who's been sent to university when i saw my appearing in these lists with people i absolutely admire my stomach flips because i thought geez i'm not ready for this she's not even been out a week she's a baby now sent with these with phds give her some time to catch up but i understand that for what it's worth. Right now, the things are written about, everyone wants to learn about. And so I just have to write. Well, I thought I learned from it.

And I know that my daughters are going to read it too. So I'm very grateful to you. And I should say we're white, but we can, well, we should learn from this book. Thank you very much Candice I appreciate the line there was breaking up but we didn't want to stop the conversation because I do think it's really important thank you very much for talking to us and congratulations uh that's Candice Brathwaite that's uh the author she is the author of I'm Not Your Baby Mother What It's Like to Be a Black British Mother and I would have talked for longer

to Candice because there's a lot of really important stuff in that book, but the line wasn't quite up to it. So, as you know, we're working in slightly challenging technical times here at the Hour of Power and elsewhere at the house that is forever broadcasting. We're going to move on to talk about the Black Lives Matter protests, which are planned for this weekend across the UK. Officially, of course, nobody should be gathering

in groups of more than six people due to the lockdown because of COVID. If you do go out, of course, to an event like this, you must socially distance and you should wear a mask. But we know a lot of young people, as Candice was expressing there, a lot of young people have been galvanised by the events of the last couple of weeks and you may very well have been to an event yourself. Your children may be asking about going to an event this weekend.

Let's talk to Monique Buffet, who is a lawyer and a member of the Black Protest Legal UK support team, and to Talja Parkinson, who is a mother from Surrey. She's got three children. Her oldest, who's 16, has been to a protest with his school friends. Monique, first of all, good morning to you. Good morning. Tell me a little bit about what's planned for this weekend,

because I know that there is some doubt about whether the events are going to go ahead. Certainly the big one at Hyde Park. Yes, I think that the Black Lives Matter movement, although I can't speak for them, have said to activists that if they do want to go and protest, they should try to do it in their local area, because there obviously are concerns around the pandemic, but also other EDL groups, for example, who are planning on protesting. And I think the message is that you can protest, but just put your safety first as well and just consider what you can do to stay safe if you decide to protest.

Right. In terms of young people attending events, a lot of them will never have been to anything like this before. What do they need to be aware of and what should their parents tell them? I think the first thing they should be aware of is their rights. They should keep a number of a trusted adult on them and a protester solicitor. Either they can write it on their arm or keep it in their pocket. People that they would want to call if they were scared or if they did get arrested. They should make sure that they are properly prepared so they should take water, some snacks, keep a portable phone charger on them because they don't know necessarily how long they will be out protesting for.

Making sure that they take warm clothes and keeping a notepad and pen on them in case they want to take notes or the shoulder numbers of the police in case they have any interaction with a police officer that doesn't make them feel comfortable or safe. But knowing their rights is the most important thing. Right. Stay with us, Monique. Talja, I know that you've got three children, three sons, actually. The youngest is very young, but your other two are in their teens. Is that right?

Yes, so a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old. Right. And the 16-year-old went out with his mates last weekend, didn't he, to an event? He did, yes. We'd gone as a family to one event in Basingstoke in Hampshire, but he wanted to go um on his own with his school friends um to another event so he went on his own yeah in Guildford and were you concerned about that extremely concerned um I almost um didn't let him go um but thanks to his

stepdad he you know he did go but I think I was more concerned about his safety. And as Monique said, I think for me, it was more about who else was going to be there protesting as well. You know, people outside of the Black Lives Movement was the biggest concern for me. So and, you know, just hearing Monique speak now, it's some of the things that she said, I wish I'd known before he went out to protest. But most of them were covered in that, you know, if you do get scared or if anything happens where you're not comfortable, make sure your phone is charged and give me a call. I guess I've got a teenager myself. You're torn between obviously wanting them to be all right and perhaps warning them or telling them they can't go.

Whilst also perhaps there would have been a part of you that would have been disappointed if he hadn't wanted to go. Yes, definitely. I think it was obviously, you know, we've spoken to him about, especially where we live out in Surrey, you know, we're in a predominantly white neighbourhood, you know, keeping on top of him and, you know, making sure that he's aware of his worth and all of that and his history. So it would have been a bit hypocritical of me not to let him come, or not to let him go. But actually, you know, it was that being torn between the two, understanding that he's, you know, becoming a young adult and he needs to have his own voice,

but at the same time still being a mum and not wanting him to come to any harm. Of course. And are his friends black, white? All white. All white. They're all white. Yeah, yeah. And that was a bit of concern you know i did tell him you know try not to get separated from your friends because i know obviously he's grown up

with these friends and they're very close but at the same time i in the back of my mind i was like you're not you know we've always taught him that that you might not necessarily be treated the same way as your friends um so just be conscious of that. And it's difficult conversations that you have to have with your children in the sense of you're not like everybody else or the society might not perceive you the same way that they do your white friends. So just, you know, keep that at the back of your mind, especially if you don't get into any trouble, you know, respect the police, etc. So those things were at the forefront of my mind. And I think you'd gone as a family to another event, hadn't you? Yes, we had. So the day before we went to an event in Basingstoke in Hampshire, and that was more of a protest in a park.

So there wasn't a march per se. But again, I think it was important for us to go as a family because obviously my 12 year old, I wouldn't genuinely wouldn't let him go anywhere on his own or to a protest on his own but it was important for us to be there as a family to you know show us our support as well. Right I'm interested Monique in the practicalities of what occurs at a protest like this I know that you were at Whitehall last Saturday and you were kettled as a group weren't you by the police which is a way of containing a group of protesters. Just talk us through that. Yes, it is. So both, I think, Saturday and Sunday, but as well as Friday evening, the police at the end of the day, I think towards eight o'clock, started to kettle protesters that were left. And as you rightly said, Jane, kettling is a way of containing a group of protesters in

one area. But the problem is, is that they will contain you for several hours and you're not allowed to leave, even to go to the bathroom. So it can be really difficult and distressing for young people in particular, especially young people, as you mentioned, who may never have protested before. Right. So how might you know that a kettle was about to start? Sure. So I think the first thing is keeping an eye on the police. So the police before kettling, if you notice a heavier police presence than there was before, that's a first sign. Police will start to put on their riot gear before kettling. And then also they'll start standing. Obviously, the police do tend to stand in lines, but they will start packing together shoulder to shoulder and not letting people through the line so if you see that that is a sign that they may kettle and that would be a

good idea to leave the area if you don't feel safe anymore and you can always leave the area and then maybe come back if you if you think that it's safer and you still want to keep protesting but keep an eye on the police and most importantly keep an eye on how you're feeling and how safe you're feeling and if you want to call someone because you're not sure, that's always fine as well. Right. I mean, the police, we should say, they get a lot of criticism. We know that they have an extremely difficult job to do. They've also received a great deal of praise for the way they dealt with the events last weekend. Is that fair?

I think that everyone's experiences of the police are mixed, but I think the experiences of particularly black and brown young people in these protests have been generally quite negative. And I think that's really problematic, especially because these protests in particular are about police brutality after the murder of George Floyd. So, of course, the police are doing a difficult job, but the police also should be being mindful that there are lots of young people at these protests who haven't protested before. And we did have reports of really young people, you know, under 16, under 14, who were kettled, who weren't allowed to leave. And we did have a couple of young people who we made them known to the police officers that they were young and very vulnerable. And they ended up being arrested for that. So also you know not fair and potentially not lawful. Yes we should say of course that attacks on the police are utterly unacceptable and they did occur too over the weekend. That may be true I personally didn't actually view any attacks on the police.

So all in all there is no doubt that young people are going to want to attend protests over the weekend. The advice from you Monique is go, be aware, be sensible and stick with your mates. Yes, make sure that you're in a group of less than six if you are going with friends and I think know your rights. There are really good resources online that parents and young people should read. The Liberty website has lots of information about how to prepare for a protest and what your rights are. Equally, the organisation Green in Black Cross and Black Protest Legal Support UK on our Twitter page are posting information to keep young people and people who are going to protest safe. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. We appreciate it. That's Monique Bouffet,

who is a lawyer and a member of the black protest legal uk support team uh talja parkinson thanks to you too um do you think your son is he planning to go to another event this weekend is anything happening around your way um i think there is another event on saturday um in gilford again so i think he will want to attend but at least now i've got a bit more information to give to him thanks to monique all right well i'm glad that helped you thank you very much take care and the best to your son as well and to his friends who are in the Surrey area and may or may not be going out and about this weekend right now I think actually we're going to talk about we're going to go straight to the camels we are go bring on the camels who doesn't want to hear about our mother and daughter camel training team? They are Rebecca and 21-year-old Daisy Fawcett,

and their camels race, they make appearances, and they perform on the telly and in films. Our reporter Kaz Graham went to meet them, and the camels, of course, near Stratford-upon-Avon. OK, so this is Blizzard. Blizzard is a four-and-a-half-year-old male camel. No, don't worry, he's not going to do anything. He's just giving me that look.

He's so, so chilled out. Blizzard's got little man syndrome because he's a little bit smaller than all the others. No, but he, like... Yeah, that is really unfair. No, but he's so funny because he kind of feels like he has to be, like, one of the big ones, so he's a bit cheekier than the others, and he's just... he's so funny because he kind of feels like he has to be like one of the big ones. So he's a bit cheekier than the others.

And he's just, he's hilarious. But honestly, he's so chilled out. Like, mum's hugging him right now. She is, she's cuddling him. Oh yeah, cuddling him. And he's just standing there like, yeah, okay. Come on, monkey. Come on.

I'm back for the baby and I'm toast. Good lad. There we go. Come on, baby. I'm Daisy. I've grown up with camels my entire life. Dad's from a circus background. And ever since he was little, he's been around lions and tigers and elephants.

And he used to be a lion tamer. That was his main job. I know, I love telling people it because it's so funny, their reactions. Yeah, my dad's a lion tamer. So he was a lion tamer and met my mum. Mum, what were you doing? You were doing... Training to be a wild animal presenter but i but i ended up going off with joe and then we were going to do lions together but then i got pregnant with daisy so we technically were my fault yeah technically all

your fault so we switched to camels because it was a safer option and we've been doing camels ever since and i'm actually very very pleased that that happened yeah i definitely prefer camels to lions you know i mean they bite but they won't take your arm off. So I'm Rebecca Fawcett, Daisy's mum, and I've been working with camels for nearly 20 years now and been training Daisy since she was little how to handle them, and she's turned out really, really good. Don't bite.

Be fair, camels can bite. They can bite. I'm not saying calves will, but they can bite. The males have, like like canines for fighting and i don't know they're like two inches maybe three inches we should go and look at the teeth but you're gonna let me look in your mouth blizzard's really good but his haven't come through yet yeah so we're just peering into this camel's mouth you've kind of lifted his lips away from his gums yeah but you can see what like there's no top teeth. It's just a gum, literally.

And then these are just for eating. And then they have fighting teeth on the top. Fighting teeth? Yeah. Do your camels fight? No. Oh, I don't know. Not really.

No, no, no. What we do have is we have a full male and a little female who spend a lot of time playing with each other. And he will bite her to make her go down and so she ends up with a sort of raw patch on it but she bites him look on his hump there where she is she's an absolute shocker for it i've seen her when they're around a bowl of food she will go in and she's tiny and she'll go up to the biggest camel and just take a lunge at their hump and they'll back off immediately she gets to eat so you know small small is not necessarily weak in the camel world, I don't think.

In fact, it is a matriarchal society. There's a bossy female always in charge, even over the full male. The thing I think people look at most when they see camels are the fantastic eyelashes and the eyebrows. I mean, they are amazing. Any woman would be jealous of those eyelashes. They're superb. But of course, they've got an evolutionary point to them there to protect the eyes from sand. Their eyes are amazing.

I mean, it looks like she's got an extraordinary eyeliner and loads of mascara. Yeah, no, no, it really does. Really does. They're very beautiful. At the moment, they've molted and this is their new velvet coming through so they look particularly beautiful this is baxter and we're just going to do some general training for a big job we've got coming up and he's got bells on his feet which is why he's jingling when it comes to

training them i mean how do you train a camel oh how do you train a camel that is the question with a lot of patience and care it's as simple as that you know no it is it's all about kindness and reward it's just about practice doing stuff over and over like what we're doing at the moment with the bells and things like that ryan or le Leo will start drumming and making lots of noise around him. It's just getting him used to it kind of thing. There you go. That's the drumming. So it's all just about practice, really,

and just making sure he doesn't bat an eyelid, which he's doing very well at. Good lad. There we go. Good boy. There we go. Good boy. There we go. Come on, monkey. And what do you train them to do?

Tell me a bit about what you do with these camels. What we do, we do everything with them. During the summer, it's mostly racing. It's mainly entertainment for like country fairs and race courses, that sort of thing. Are they natural athletes? They don't look like the speediest of creatures. You need to see these camels running towards a bucket of food to realise they're natural athletes if they choose to be. Well, look at just bertie's legs bertie's the white camel like he's got such long legs he loves it as he loves racing it's true

actually he's got your same bolt i'm not sure you're saying bolt would be too happy racing is main arena entertainment and then three Kings and the Camels during winter so mostly like parades and displays and then we do TV and film, like we do everything. Tell me about the TV and film what might people have seen these camels in? Well they were in Nativity The first one? The first one

Oh that's the film about some children who put on a Nativity play and they get real, real camels Oh they get real camels. Which is a bit of a shocker. Well, we've done a lot of television work. E-Harmony advert. The one with the camel on the sofa looking at the man.

That was ours. How do you train a camel to sit on a sofa? Well. It has to be a big sofa, I guess. It was a big sofa and it was brought down here. We practiced walking him over it, lying on it, because obviously it's a squishy surface. It's not like grass, so yeah, we practiced him a lot on that.

And again, once in the studio, there were a lot of carrots involved. A lot of carrots. Carrots play a major part in our life, and their lives. They are very keen on carrots. Bertie. Sorry, Bertie's just decided to like stand over Baxter whilst he's lying down as he did

we're one of the only people to have done motion capture with a camel one of ours Ruby it was for John Carter Goes to Mars the film so basically came

put a black lycra suit all over her she looked a bit like a ninja a black lycra suit on your camera on our camera like these little ping pong balls on put her into a school no no no hang on you've got to understand that the balls were covered with light reflective tape made out of ground glass and when the lights around the arena you know they picked up the light reflective balls and then those

became dots on a screen and those dots became a camel it was extraordinary it works superbly well what does a camel do when you put it in a lycra suit nothing no really very relaxed about it joseph spent a bit of time putting a jumper on and off her head to get her used to having something pulled over her head and once we got past that stage actually putting the suit on was very easy and she didn't mind at all because of course like removes with you she was no she was very relaxed with it and she um did the job fantastically well but that's all about good training and practice and experience and knowing you know how to make things work properly. Good luck. Come on, babe.

Oh, Baxter. He's had enough. He's just getting down. He's just lying down. He does this all the time. He's like, no, that's it. I'm lying down now. I'm bored. Okay, mate, you lie down.

That's fine. Yeah, they fold up like deck chairs. They're quite funny. What do they mean to you, these animals? Tell me about your relationship with them. What is it about camels? What is it about camels?

What is it about camels? They are the most incredible animals I think you could possibly meet They're, say, loving and caring and they have such great personalities They are my life, really They're what my life revolves around I wouldn't change it for the world And the reporter there in Stratford-upon-Avon was Kaz Graham what my life revolves around. I wouldn't change it for the world.

And the reporter there in Stratford-upon-Avon was Kaz Graham. Now, here's the information you knew you wanted. That piece was recorded long before the coronavirus lockdown. And we are told that although social distancing with camels is a challenge, it is not impossible. And there's a sentence I never expected to read and you never expected to hear. But there we go. That's where we are in 2020. Camels eyelashes were referenced during the course of that feature. And one of the trainers, one of the camel trainers did say that women would be jealous of camel's eyelashes.

Well, I said on the radio that I hadn't, as far as I'm aware, ever been jealous of a camel in any way. But we've just done a bit more research. Well, OK, we've Googled camel's eyelashes and they are really long. Apparently, this is because the long eyelashes keep the sand that is blowing around out of their eyes. They have two sets of eyelashes, in fact, which help protect their eyes from sand. And the third is a very thin lid, which acts as a sort of windshield wiper to clean their eyes. It closes or opens from side to side rather than up and down. And it's also thin enough that the camels can see through it, whatever the circumstances. There we go. I don't think there were that many sandstorms in Stratford-upon-Avon, but you wouldn't put anything past Britain at the moment, would you?

Right, where should we go? Let's talk about what was in the programme today. A lot of people are interested in the protests. Jean says on email, I'm an avid listener of Woman's Hour. I'm coming to the conclusion that you're not staying neutral to the protests that are taking place in terms of Black Lives Matter. Everybody has the right to protest peacefully, I agree, but these are not peaceful protests. They are out to cause trouble, that is clear. This is Jean's view. I am completely on the side of law and order,

and to hear that some parents are willing to let their children be part of it, well, I'm appalled. Everybody's life matters. Well, Jean, I'm not sure that everybody, well, I know that not everybody listening to this will agree with what you've said there. Everybody in Britain does have the right to protest peacefully. The overwhelming majority of people at Black Lives Matters protests are indeed peaceful and they are not causing trouble. Trouble often happens at demonstrations of all sorts, but it's by no means a guarantee. And it certainly isn't the experience of most people who attend Black Lives Matter events. Rebecca on Twitter says, We explained to our daughter that she could protest with just five of her friends, socially distanced and wearing masks.

On email, Gabrielle says, what will I be telling my children about protesting this weekend? I'll be telling them that I'll be out there taking a stand and taking a knee in Newbury tomorrow lunchtime. I'm 58. I'm a woman of English and Northern Irish Catholic heritage. And having been through anti-Irish sentiments, jokes and unpleasant remarks whilst growing up in the 70s, simply because of my heritage and or skin colour, are on the receiving end of anything from un called I'm Not, I'm sorry, I'm just searching for it.

I want to get it right. I'm Not Your Baby Mother is her deliberately provocative title of that book about black British motherhood. And this tweet from Laurie says, I'm sorry, I didn't hear more from her. As a black mother, I wasn't keen on the title. I'm not sure how I feel about it. It is definitely provocative. Well, yes. And I think Cand interactions with people on the other side of the world and then you try and talk to somebody

who's about 100 miles from London and it doesn't quite work but we just can't help that I'm afraid at the moment and onto the subject of domestic abuse and misogyny due to domestic violence I had to leave my home and my two children in their home with their father says this contributor

there were no refuges then this was in 1980 I then had to fight my home and my two children in their home with their father, says this contributor. There were no refuges then. This was in 1980. I then had to fight my ex-husband for custody of my children through the courts. I was seen as the bad one because I had left my children. The violence against me was seen as no reason to leave. I did finally win custody and took my children to live with me but the trauma of that time is still with me the attitude of the police the attitude of the courts the only person who helped me was an a and e doctor who i saw with facial injuries i'm now 71 says that listener and thank you for writing to us and i hope you're okay now um this is from a listener called sue um when you talk about misogyny you often don't mention porn.

Well, to be fair, I often do mention porn. I didn't this morning, though, so I appreciate you intervening, Sue. Sue goes on, but I think porn can act like an ocean of misogyny, feeding the idea that violence against women is acceptable. Most porn is not simply erotic. And this listener asks us on the programme to talk about not just Black Lives Matter, but let's investigate all sorts of different names of streets in Britain. They say, what shall we do about Duckingstool Lane, Scalds Hill, which is common, Stoops Bottom, Blind Man's Hill? What are we going to do about all these things, says that contributor. Yes, I mean, our history is littered with unfortunate incidents,

many of which are commemorated in all kinds of place names, street names. I know this is never ending. I wanted to end just with this from a listener. I think many people will relate to this. It's from Lynn. Don't need to say where you are, Lynn, but thank you for providing your details. Hello, Jane and Jenny.

Like the rest of the nation, I haven't been able to get my hair done since March. Lynn says, I look like Einstein on steroids. I heard recently that our village hair salon has decided to flout the rules and see a few people on the quiet. But like all villages, nothing goes unnoticed and someone has dubbed them in. My question, says Lynn, is who is cutting politicians' hair?

And the likes of Chris Whitty, Professor Chris Whitty. Well, I don't know. Chris Whitty doesn't have a lot of hair, yes, as Siobhan points out. So I think perhaps he's tending to his own locks at the moment, or perhaps there's somebody at home who's doing it. And as for the politicians, I obviously have no idea. I would imagine they might have somebody in the house who can go at their hair, or they might have had a go themselves. I agree with you. They do look, you can just get a, if you're a bloke, you can just get a shaver or a razor or something and do something with your usually relatively short hair. I do feel for you though, Lynne. I got an email this week from my hairdressers and they are hoping to see me on the 10th of July. In the meantime, I'm just letting it happen with a bit of slightly reluctant assistance from a teenager who did do Maroot the other day, slightly haphazardly. But I think that bit of TLC is going to see me through until the 10th. Oh, Siobhan says I've got away with this. That literally is the nicest thing she's said to me all day.

Thanks to everybody who's made this edition of the programme happen. I'm talking about Paula and Emma and, yes, Siobhan and Sarah, who's in today. Women's Hour continues the highlights of the week in podcast and radio form tomorrow. And then, of course, we're back live on Monday morning. Have a reasonable weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.