Woman's Hour - Candice Carty-Williams, Russian Feminist Protestors, Roe v Wade

Episode Date: May 3, 2022

Candice Carty-Williams described her very successful first novel Queenie as 'the black Bridget Jones'. In the opening chapter of her new novel People Person absent father Cyril climbs into his gold jeep and drives around London collecting the five half-siblings he has sired, introduces them all for the first time and buys them an ice-cream. Candice has called this her ‘daddy issues’ book and in it she celebrates families of all sorts. Her aim, she says, is to make visible the people she knows and the experiences she has had. She joins Emma in the studio. Overnight - according to a leaked draft of a court document - we learnt that the US Supreme Court could be about to overturn the nationwide right to an abortion. The New York Times writer Amanda Taub tells us what this means for women in America. Despite laws preventing protest or even coverage of the war, many women and female-led groups in Russia have found a way to express their opposition to the invasion of Ukraine. One of them is the Feminist Anti-War Resistance, which has over 32,000 followers on the social media app Telegram. We’re joined by one of their founders, Ella Rossman, who also researches Russian feminist activism at UCL. The latest in our series 'Threads' about the feelings and memories associated with the clothes we just can't part with. Listener Vanessa joins Emma to tell her story.A new 3D female anatomy model is being used to better treat women. The new digital tool will provide a better understanding of the female anatomy and help to prevent women getting incorrectly diagnosed. Professor Claire Smith is using it with her students at Brighton and Sussex Medical School. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope you had a good bank holiday if you did manage to have some form of break. But let me ask you this question that may be in your mind this morning after seeing and hearing and reading the news. Could the legal right to abortion in America be about to be overturned? An unprecedented leak of a draft US Supreme Court document shows that might be on the cards. The political website Politico

published the leaked document in full and that report has sent shockwaves through the country, regardless of which side US citizens find themselves on, on the issue of abortion. The leaked draft, and I should stress that's what it is at the moment, shows that five justices, four men and one woman, would vote to strike down Roe v. Wade, the landmark decision that legalised abortion across America in 1973. We will get into the detail of that shortly and what that leak shows. As I say, it's published in 1973. We will get into the detail of that shortly and what that leak shows. As I say, it's published in full. But I wanted to give you the opportunity to have your views aired today on this potential major change in America, which of course will have knock-on effects around the

world. And of course, we need to think about individuals who will be affected too. This potential major change expressly concerns women. What do you make of what you're hearing from America, where, of course, the issue of abortion has long been a far hotter political topic than here? Those polls show that routinely when we look at consensus on this and national attitudes. But I'm sure, regardless of this being in the US,

you will have views. And I would like to hear them and also what they're based on and perhaps how some of your own experiences come to bear on this. 84844 is the number. You need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, do get in touch at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, I'll be joined by Candice Carty-Williams, the author best known for her smash hit book Queenie, and she's back with her highly anticipated new novel People Person. As the UK pledges a further £300 million of military aid to help Ukraine fight Russia,

I'll be joined by one of the Russian women protesting the war being carried out in their name and a founder of the feminist anti-war resistance. And why a 3D digital model of the female body became the most watched video on the BBC News site yesterday. All that to come. But first, nearly 50 years ago, this happened. Good evening. In a landmark ruling, the Supreme Court today legalised abortions. The majority in cases from Texas and Georgia said that the decision to end a pregnancy during the first three months belongs to the woman and her doctor, not the government. Thus, the anti-abortion laws of 46 states were rendered unconstitutional. Well, that was in 1973, following the landmark case of Roe v. Wade,

which gave women in America an absolute right to an abortion. Overnight, according to a leaked draft of a court document, we learned that the US Supreme Court could be about to overturn that nationwide right. In a 98-page draft opinion published on the Politico News website, which you can go and read, perhaps some of you have already, Justice Samuel Alito writes that the 1973 decision is egregiously wrong. Well, I'm joined now by The New York Times writer Amanda Taub. Amanda, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me on. How seriously should we take this draft leaked opinion at this stage, do you think?

I would say extremely seriously. So you're absolutely correct that it is a draft. And Supreme Court justices do write and circul that draft process for justices to go so far as to change their vote or to change the specifics of the opinion. However, this particular opinion is clearly in a very finished state and it does have the names of justices already signed to it, which does not mean that nothing will change between now and when the court actually issues its opinion, which it has not done yet. But I think it is worth taking extremely seriously as a statement of where the current thinking is among the justices.

Yes. And you could tell me, I understand, I might be wrong, you correct me, that the final draft of this, the final judgment will be this summer. That's what's being expected at the moment. Is that right? That is what is anticipated. I think most people are expecting it sometime next month, but there's no fixed date. And already just about the publication of this, there's been two views, there always is, or multiple, but depending on where you come at this from, which is one is, you know, now this has been leaked, you cannot see these judges going away or watering down their views because they will want to stay firm to them, what's been shared. The other is this has been leaked to try and make it that this doesn't happen. I think that the first thing to say is that a leak of an entire draft opinion like this essentially never happens.

So Supreme Court leaks, particularly before an opinion comes out, is incredibly rare or incredibly rare. And of an entire opinion like this is more or less unprecedented. In terms of the political kind of, you know, consequences of it, I think you're right. I think it could have both of those effects. I think it's not an either or. It could both harden the, you know, resolve of the justices who have signed on to the opinion, who will now, you know, if they change their minds, if they soften their stance, be expected to answer to conservative, you know, politicians, activists, etc.

Even though they have life tenure, they might care a lot about that. But I think that this will also certainly have really significant political ramifications, particularly for the upcoming midterm elections. But, you know, if I may come away from that, because, of course, that's a big part of this, but thinking about women's lives and how quickly this could have an impact.

Let's say this is what's going to happen. This is the draft that, as you say, we've got to take very seriously. And this is the ruling that comes down as soon as June, as some reports put it, in the summer. As I understand it, there are what are being called so-called trigger laws in place that could instantly make abortion illegal in 22 US states. What does that look like from your perspective in terms of how this is going to affect women? And, you know, I should say, while there's been protests about this, and many people sharing their views on social media, of course, there have also been celebrations, a lot of people waiting a long time for this. Yeah, I think the thing to emphasise is not only will this instantly end abortion rights for women in about half of the states in the country,

whether because of specifically passed trigger laws or laws that outlaw abortion that have been essentially waiting for Supreme Court review or waiting for a Supreme Court decision. About half of U.S. states will instantly outlaw abortion. I think the other thing to say, though, is that in a lot of places, this has already happened. So in Texas, for instance, because of a law that the Supreme Court declined to stay several months ago, abortion has been effectively illegal for nearly all women for months now. And there are a lot of signs of just how burdensome that will be for women elsewhere. I think a lot of people are expecting women to travel to other states where abortion will remain legal in order to get these procedures.

But I think that the thing to emphasize is just how burdensome that is, particularly when you consider the size geographically of the United States and how far people would have to travel. Also, there's been the rise of women ordering pills online and receiving deliveries from around the world on that perspective as well, not just going to neighbouring states, depending, of course, where they are up to in their pregnancy and what access they can get. I think the other thing just to bring up at this point, again, regardless of almost where you're coming at this from, you know, and I'm very minded that, you know, some of our listeners, they might not necessarily have a specific view about America, but they may have a view on this where they think this is progress and they think this is the right way forward. But the idea that abortion laws to outlaw abortion will stop abortion is something that we can pause

on for a moment because of what we know from history and also what we know from the states where it's already happening. It doesn't stop abortion. It moves it elsewhere. It drives it underground. I think it doesn't stop abortion. I think it drives it underground, it makes it less safe. But I do think it's important to recognise that for some pregnant women, for some pregnant people, this will prevent them from getting an abortion. You know, they may be too late in their pregnancy for a medical abortion, they may lack the resources to acquire one, they may lack the resources to travel. So it is, while it is true that a ban will not end abortion entirely, I think it's important to not interpret that to mean that this will not, for individual people, have that effect and really

serious consequences. Yeah, and that is a big point as well to make in this because, of course, you know, what access you can get and how this will then affect your life. We would want to look at, again, it's a draft at this stage, but many taking this very seriously. Indeed, we're already getting messages. It was interesting, the very first message I received that came in this morning was from a man called Alan, who says, men should not be allowed a say in this. I say this as a man. When you look at the breakdown of the justices in this leaked document, it's four men and one woman, and it's a man who wrote this draft document. So it's an interesting point raised by one of our listeners. It is. I would say that in a democratic and constitutional system,

we don't necessarily expect people to only legislate for rights or make judicial opinions that protect rights that they themselves enjoy. But I do think that whether somebody is themselves subject to the dangers and the consequences that an unwanted pregnancy can bring to their life, perhaps does give them a different opinion, a different perspective on it. And the fact that women are systematically underrepresented at the highest levels of the judiciary and the American government has an effect on how likely their rights are to be protected. A few more messages, if I may share. Hello, the thought that America may overturn Roe v. Wade is terrifying. I'm a 67-year-old woman. I believe in a woman's right to choose and not to be dictated to about our own bodies. How can in 2022 be half of the population of the planet and still be viewed as less than second class?

It's very depressing, writes Jill. But Grace says, I heartily support the fact that the US Supreme Court may be about to change the law on abortion. These days, women are using abortion as a means of contraception, and this is wrong. If a woman is raped and a pregnancy ensues, then she absolutely has the right to have an abortion. To Grace's point there, Amanda, and again, more messages coming in. Under what we believe this might look like, there's concern that there would be no cases or no instances for women to be able to have abortions, that the circumstances she even outlines might not

be available? I think that that is a serious concern. So on the point of contraception, I would say that the same organisations that have lobbied for overturning Roe v. Wade have often classed most contraceptives in the same category as supposed abortifacients. So hormonal birth control and IUDs, I think, are also conceivably at risk under this new legal standard. And the other thing to say with regard to exceptions is that I think that will be something that is hotly litigated in the wake of this opinion. So the Mississippi law that was at issue in this particular draft, I'm sorry, sorry, has an exception for a medical emergency. But what is considered an emergency in the context of pregnancy, I think is something that is not clearly defined at this

point. You know, how much danger would you have to wait to actually occur? And for those wondering why now, why this, why this draft, you just mentioned it there, it was in response to Mississippi, wasn't it? That Roe v. Wade was being looked at again. So yes, that is the, I think the short answer. Particular law is being reviewed, but there have been a series of legal challenges, laws being passed for the express purpose of raising this issue to the Supreme Court. It's happened every few years, essentially, since Roe v. Wade was decided. And so the real reason why now is the makeup of the court, is the number of conservative justices who were in many ways selected for their views.

On this being in the majority at this point. Amanda, thank you very much. The New York Times writer there on this. Well, it's a historic leak from the Supreme Court. And what could be a historic moment with regards to abortion rights in America. And your message is still coming in and very welcome to please 84844. That's the number you need to text here at Woman's Hour. And I'll come back to some of those messages shortly.

But I've just been joined in the studio, which I'm still very excited about after the pandemic. When I have a guest in front of me. Let me tell you who's walked in. The author Candice Carsey-Williams, who is back with her highly anticipated second novel after her hugely successful and much celebrated first, Queenie, which she described as the black Bridget Jones. That told the story of 25-year-old South Londoner Queenie trying to make it in the world against enormous odds. And the book sold, I'm now told, more than 500,000 copies.

And in 2020, it won Book of the year at the British Book Awards making her the first black author and the first black female author to win that award since its inception. Now her new novel People Person looks at the complexity of family relationships and in particular the role of fathers and I'm delighted to talk to you about it Candice. I'm sure you're delighted to have it out. Yes I am and I'm delighted to be here thank you. Does it feel good having it out in the world? Yes it does because when you when you write you're so solitary and you sit with yourself and you sit with all these characters and you just kind of desperately want to talk to anyone about about them who isn't your your editor who's kind of telling you things

you need to do so it's good to be able to talk to people and have readers tell me what they like. Well, I've been so looking forward to talking to you, having had the pleasure of reading it this longer weekend. And I wanted to start with a very evocative image of Cyril. That's the absent father who has sired these children, shall we say. He has these children, five children,

who he drives around in the opening chapter in his gold jeep and collecting them and introduces them all in this quite odd first meeting and buys them an ice cream you've called this a daddy's issues book amongst other things say a bit more about that and cyril yeah so cyril is is not based on on my own dad but he's based on dads like mine and around mine who have a number of children and they don't know how to look after them or how to be dads. And that's something that I and many people like me have had to work out and kind of work out themselves and do that work to do. Because I guess when you're a kid, you just kind of expect your parents to be there.

And when they're not, and when there is one key figure who's not you kind of turn in on yourself and so this book was an exploration of that. Did you want to explore because I thought at first and I don't want to give anything away that it would be a lot about trying to understand him but it moves quite quickly to try and understand his children and how his absence has affected their lives did you find yourself you know really wanting to to understand that role from his perspective? For sure, but I think it was more important to see, for me, these five children and how they were and how they moved through the world

and what it meant to not have this key person. And so it was how they were in themselves, but also how they interact with each other and then ultimately how they interact with Cyril himself. Yes, and there's a case where he asks one of his children, Dimple, a character that is at the heart of this, for money. You know, there's a role reversal there when she gets what he perceives as a little bit of success.

Yes. Role reversal is quite an interesting thing that you also explore. No, absolutely, because I think there is so often we as young people, we end up becoming our parents or parenting our parents. And that's definitely the case for me and a lot of people that I know. And there is something so uncomfortable and so strange about that. And again, it's stuff that we kind of have to work through for ourselves. And that's what I find really challenging. And I think that's why I had to write this novel, because I was always trying to make sense of having to have been a parent when I was like a kid and then like what

does that mean for me in adulthood and like kind of like carrying myself and carrying myself through everything that I do and being like there is no one really like my mum is really cool but I mean you know imagine having two parents who were just congratulating you on stuff that doesn't happen and it's Having that infrastructure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Do you feel, because I've seen it in an interview that you talked about when you started to become successful that your dad did ask you for some money. And how did you navigate that?

Did you find it something you could deal with having tried to do some of that work or were you not there yet? No, actually, I found that incredibly tough. I found it really, really hard because I remember I'd sent him my very first review of Queenie. It was from Kirkus Reviews in America. And he just didn't reply. Like I sent it to him.

It was on WhatsApp and he has like blue ticks. And he just didn't reply. And then I said to him, like, did you read it? And he just said, no. And I said to him like did you read it and he just said no and I was like oh okay right and then later on the question of like money came up and I was like but the money is from the thing and you can't even like I remember just being like it would literally be easy for you to pretend that you cared about this and that you engage in this and me because like do you don't want to do that because then like surely then I would give you money but he just he just he wasn't even interested in like the facade of caring at all so yeah I think

what's interesting about the way you've drawn this character and I know you know you probably loathe people always saying is it all about you you've got creative license you've created those but is that you aren't you don't pull any punches about that there are other examples of such behavior where you you want somehow them to be redeemed you want there to be a nice um sort of sweet way of that being okay in the end because there was a reason that day they didn't read the review or there was a reason they didn't remember to call you and you don't pull any punches on that why do you think that's important because it's real and i try and be as real as possible in my writing and also in

in my life um because I think that we have I guess limited time you know we all do and I think it's important for all of those relationships that we have to be as as I guess as legit as possible and I try and do that in my writing too because it's like as much as as it's fiction I also like to create something that is so close to real life that people can find themselves in it and can understand and it's sometimes what the characters are going through and people person hasn't been out for very long but I've already had so many messages from people being like oh my god I never thought anyone would write about a family like mine and that's important because that's why I do what I do I must must feel pretty good. Yeah it was great. Well also you've described the book you

said it's time to write a book just about black people in the sense of that's part of it but not the whole thing but it's the story I imagine that's what you're talking about. Yeah because Queenie was in in response to whiteness. Queenie is all about this girl trying to straddle two cultures and one of those cultures is white culture. She's trying and failing very often at this newspaper that is run by white people. She's trying to talk about black stories and they're not interested. She's dating white men and how they're treating her and her body is failing her and her mental health. And it was time to, I've done that now. I know what I've worked that through. I've worked that through myself. And now it's time to be like, done that now. I know what, I've worked that through. I've worked that through myself.

And now it's time to be like, okay, cool. Let's focus on this family of black people. And it felt good. Yeah. Well, I mean, you touched upon this as well. And it's a theme in some of the characters as well. You know, you've got the older tough sisters trying to look out for everyone. But you touched upon it there about having to grow up too early, really.

And I'm just minded of some of the stories we've covered on the program um especially about black girls and adultification which i find quite hard to say but it's an important theme um for instance there was a story of child q i don't know if you saw this of a black girl being strip searched by police officers in a london school just to remind our listeners um and then last week there was a report by the former children's Commissioner calling out treating black boys and girls in particular, like adults. Why do you think that happens more? And what do you, where have you come out on that? What's your view on that? Well, that's just, it's been happening to me since I was young. And I always see all of these weird

polls going around on Twitter asking particularly young black women when they were first sexualized and it's overwhelmingly sort of like the years of like 9 to 12 and I remember the same thing happening and I think there was just this very strange disconnect that happens and it's a big societal one that is pushed out pushed out constantly that black women are just always women from childhood and we do not have the grace or the time to be young and to be children. I wish I knew what the origins of that were, but all I know is that it's very pervasive

and it's very damaging. And it's still happening. It's still happening all the time. And I wrote about adultification in an essay collection that I contributed to because that's always been something that I've been very aware of and it's always been very, very affecting. Is there anything you would say to young black girls,

let's say girls rather than women, right? You know, that's what they are, to try and navigate that. Have you learned any tools? Honestly, I just, I mean, I do so much. This sounds so funny, but I do so much inner child work still all the time. On yourself?

On myself, On myself. On myself. And that is a person that I've never really checked in with. Because since I was, I think, like eight, it was just time to grow up and to parent and also just to kind of be strong and to face everything. And it was like, whoa, there were so many years of my life where I was not allowed to be a kid. And so now there is a part of me that I've got to kind of check in with. Would you say in your life, because obviously it might be slightly different

depending on your context, was that around family members or was that around wider society? How did that play out? It started with family. And I think, you know, as I've said before, there is so much in needing to think about and probably give attention to the damage that our families do. I think that's really, really important. And, you know, I'm working through my stuff with mine, for sure.

How's that going? Oh my God, how is it going? It's not really going. I think my thing is just kind of distance, you know. I think that's kind of what I have to do to protect myself. And that's important. But I would say my advice would be to know that you're a child and that is absolutely fine. And look after yourself in that space because you're not going to be a kid forever.

No, I suppose it must be, it's even more upsetting if you feel like you've lost it and then you try and reclaim it a bit later on. And a big part of this, and again, I don't want to give anything away. I think, how do I say this without giving something away? A big part of the plot of People Person is something bad happens and the siblings all get together again. So it's not about an ice cream. It's not about their dad. There's no Golgi from banging music. It's about something bad. And there's kind of, I think, a romance really at the heart of the way the siblings grow and have their bond. But what's very, very striking is when this bad thing happens, not one of them thinks we'll call the police. No.

And I think that's a really important thing to pause on and ask you about today, because that is a really important insight, isn't it? Mm-hmm. If something bad happened to her, I wouldn't call the police. My car got smashed to pieces at the weekend, and I was like, oh, I'll fix it. You shared that on social media?

Yeah, yeah. Are you all right? Is everything...? Oh, no, everything's fine. Nothing got taken. It was great. I realise people just tell me things and sometimes I don't actually check if they're OK. You're OK. I'm fine. I'm fine. It's getting sorted out. It's one of those things. You wouldn't?

No, I have no interest in the police and I don't trust the police. I know there are members of the police force who are good people. But as an institution, I have no trust for it and I don't know many black people who do. The history of the police and black people is absolutely horrifying. And it continues to be terrible. Well, I was going to say, it's not subtle, but it is also, it's like a subtle underpinning

of the whole story, isn't it? Because if they had, it could have got a lot worse. But if they had, it would be a very different book. That's the whole point, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Did you decide to do that from the outset as a statement? Yes, because I have seen, and it's not just black communities, it's also Sarah Everard.

I am haunted by that, as I'm sure many people are. So yeah, it was a very direct statement that that's not an institution that can be trusted and one that kind of needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because I know just how do you feel about the police? No, but I think I think the a lot of people, especially even if it was just not just but just last year, I should say, with Sarah Everard and then what has gone on since, perhaps people went on their very first protest. I mean, it was strange times. It was lockdown. Then that vigil and what happened as well. Even if you were just waking up to some of that, then, you know, you may be sort of trying to get to grips with how you feel about it. I think it's a very live question, but it has been, of course, in the black community for a very long a very long time of course you know we're talking sitting here in London and there's going to be a new commissioner and there is those there are those discussions happening I suppose I think

what then happens in the book as a as a result of that and almost if there's one positive you could say from it is this bond between the family members and how strong that is. It's almost you can't rely on the state in the way that you want. So you want to rely on each other. Exactly. And that is an offshoot of, yeah, of course, we can't really trust this set of people who are effectively existing to be the ones who we trust. But also, yeah, we have to kind of trust the community that we actually are building.

And I think that says so much about the police. It's like I'd actually, I trust this group of people that I have a tie with, but have no idea who they are rather than protecting us. It's one of the most powerful ways I've seen it drawn. And because it's not, it's as you say, it's the backdrop as opposed to the front of it. And I think that hits you, it hits you more in a way. I wanted to come to just talk about your social media your identity as a South Londoner there's a tweet you shared you said I wish more people knew how hard I work to hold the scrappy South London girl in me down

the self-control is high but so is the temper I don't care enough about the long-term consequences especially not professional ones and I'm not one of those, they go low, we go high people. Absolutely not. Talk to me about that identity that you're talking about. I'm coming to the end of my, soon I think I'm going to snap because I, honestly, I'm so scrappy and I'm so, I mean, I do a lot of therapy to hold a lot of stuff down, but it's like, I am from South London. I'm ready to go all the time, but I have to be like, okay, just do your deep breathing all the time. If you see me anywhere, I'm ready to go all the time, but I have to be like, okay, just do your deep breathing.

All the time. If you see me anyway, I'm usually doing deep breathing because I'm like, someone has done something very annoying. So you're talking about when someone's done something annoying? You're talking about general reactions?

When someone's done both, I think. But I have to keep crystals in my car because driving around South London is the worst. I'm always ready to fight someone. I've almost got into fights so many times and I've been driving like I like genuinely and and you okay so obviously you know we're not advocating

that you you go and do that in the sense of yourself and your safety no no but I meant when you say you feel you have to like keep something down why why do you feel that and why did you want to say that uh because oh well I remember someone sent me a really hard, I've seen, I've seen two things that one publication and one author have said about me recently. And I was like, wow, I'm doing so much work to like not respond to that. And then I was thinking about the fact that I shouldn't have to do all that work. So I should be able to just like be the girl that I am and just like respond to stuff but I think let's legally I'm one of them legally I'm not going to say anything in the way that I would like to but yeah I just um yeah and also just I don't want to I don't want to be seen as an angry black woman even though I think that black women often have a right to be angry yeah and how you navigate that yeah is in your mind yeah exactly well I love so many of the characters in the book as I say I do see it as a bit of a romance between them that's growing and with difficulties and and I love this particular

line one of the characters tells the other character off about you know she's my half sister and the other one says stop doing fractions yeah um you know your family and and and is that very important to you and in your wider family and how you bond with people yeah absolutely but also I have a lot of found family and that's really really important to me so a lot of people I would say that's just like my sisters my little sister's my big sister but also I think that when it comes to so I have like I have half siblings I have step siblings but one of my step siblings I have no tie to him anymore in terms of our parents but that's my brother and if anything happens he's the first person that I call and so I can't imagine being like oh yeah that's my stepbrother or he would never refer to me as

a step-sister it's just like you know that's just that's just my family that's just my it's basically my blood you know at this point um I think that's really important well and also friendships a bit a big part of what you've written about and I know what you care about and I'm very upset that one of the characters doesn't seem to have any friends she just lives online I know but I think a lot of people do live online and they need to step away into the real world yeah it was just a moment when I realized yes she hasn't mentioned any of her friends at all because you make quite a lot of comments about how people live their lives online have you have you amended your behavior over the years because I think people when you naturally have used a platform for a long time and put something out about yourself,

because obviously it's important when you're starting out, especially in something and trying to promote yourself, depending on your line of work. But people, and especially women, have spoken about how they've changed what they put out there in the public square. I think I'm quite lucky in that I don't really, I can tweet and then just never think about it again. And I can just go and...

That is a skill. No, I do feel, but I feel very lucky because, you know, a lot of people are not like that. And same with any social media. I'm kind of like, that's not real. I could delete it and then, you know. What is real is your nan, key person in your life. Oh my God, yeah.

Does she get you still buying the potatoes, doing all the jobs? Of course, absolutely. No, no, completely. She came to my book launch and she, I wear a lot of rings. I don't have book launch and she, I wear a lot of rings. I don't have any on today, but I wear a lot of rings on each finger.

And as soon as she got there, she started like taking rings off each finger and then trying them on her hands and be like, no, that one doesn't, no, that one, how about like, let me try that one on. She doesn't care about anything that I do. She's just like, you are my granddaughter

and you are here to serve me. And that's absolutely right. I absolutely am. If there's one woman on this planet that I'm here to serve, it is Elaine Williams. There you go. You've named it. Well, she probably won't listen back to this because she'll just be busy telling you something else to do. Yeah, of course. But is that important going back to what you were saying about being a child? Is that a nice thing there that that stays the same?

Yes, I'm her baby she just sees me as her little baby she always will so whatever I do and whatever I say or however I act and she's seen me at every single state she's seen me very happy to see me very low but I'm always just her little baby and she just tells everyone that I am her favorite of everyone even her children she has five daughters and she's always like what can still my favorite of everyone and it's got me in a lot of trouble obviously but I think you always need someone keeping you exactly where you you were in a good way yeah I mean and uh I value I valued I recently lost and someone in my life who's who's very important no no but you know it's one of those relationships that's a constant um I also read you might want to move to america is that right uh so i did and then i went there not long ago and i saw 10 rats in one day and so i'm not

doing that anymore i'm just not i have i have like i didn't realize it was so bad i've been there before it wasn't that bad and you're not going to relocate absolutely not okay you're doing a lot of tv and you know you're turning queenie's being made in for the screen and you're having all these developments i didn't know if that was the natural next place but 10 rats i'm you're doing a lot of TV and you know Queenie's being made in for the screen and you're having all these developments I didn't know if that was the natural next place but 10 rats

I'm terrified yeah I have a proper if there's anything in life I'm scared of it it's vermin that's the only thing vermin so yeah

10 rats in one day I said no New York is not seeing me it's not seeing me no it's never happening well we're very happy to have you stay thank you

Candice it's lovely to meet you in person. You too. And to talk to you. A lot there to go through. I'm sure we'll have many messages of people related to various parts of that. The book is called People Person. Candice Carty-Williams. Good to talk to you. I look forward to having you back. Thanks so much.

Many messages coming in. Just talking about America there, I have to say, with regards to our first story today and about this potential with this draft leaked, this leaked document that is available fully online via Politico about potentially abortion in America being overturned. A message here, abortion is such a difficult topic. Those of us who are concerned for the rights of unborn children are sometimes guilty of crass insensitivity to the incredibly stressful and emotionally traumatic positions women with unwanted pregnancies can be in. Far more support, emotional, practical and financial needs to be put in place for any woman who decides to give birth, whether she decides to raise the child herself or needs someone else to raise the child. However, I often feel demonised as an enemy to women because I value a baby inside the womb as much as a baby outside.

Another message, though though here saying it's ironic that the US still has a death penalty in many states probably the same ones that want to ban and ban abortions. It wasn't many years ago that they changed the death penalty laws so that under 18s weren't put to death as considered children. So at one end you're saved before you're born but you do wrong and you are put to death. Incomprehensible. My daughter had an abortion age 20 reads this other message. Thank you for feeling you could share this. When she became pregnant as a result of a burst condom,

it was not an easy decision for her and it took her a while to get over what she had done, but it was, as she said later, the least worst option. Her life would have been very different if she'd had the baby at the time. She's now a teacher and a happy mother, able to support her children and give them a happy childhood. Abolishing legal abortion in America would be a terrible backward step.

And an American living in the UK here has written in saying, I'm looking in with gratitude that we are moving out of the dark and deadly ages of abortion on demand. This is a step forward into the sunny future regarding life. Roe was created by and voted in by white men, says Eliza, now living in Cheshire. Keep your messages coming in, please. 84844 is the number you need. But to move across and move our attention, especially not least with the Prime Minister getting ready today to announce that 300 million in aid to Ukraine fighting

Russia. Let's go towards that story in the sense of what's going on in Russia with regards to protest, because despite laws preventing protest or even coverage of the war in Russia, many women and female led groups in the country have found a way to raise their voices against the invasion of Ukraine. Now, you might remember we covered the case of the Russian journalist who held a sign saying no war on a Russian news programme on live television. That was a few weeks ago, Marina of Senikova. Or you may have heard of the group Soldiers' Mothers Committee, some of whom have accused Putin of using their children as cannon fodder.

Well, another one of these groups is the Feminist Anti-War Resistance, a collective that is active in Russia with over 32,000 followers on the social media app Telegram. Well, I'm joined by one of the founders of the group, Ella Rossman, who's also researching Russian feminist activism at University College London. Ella, good morning. Hello. Thank you for the invitation. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for coming. Could you tell us a bit about how this group was founded? Yeah. So we found this group on the 25th of February, which is the second day of war. And it started with a group of people, with a group of just comrades and friends.

It was just my comrades with whom we worked before. We launched different feminist projects. We went to the street protests. So we knew each other for many years because I'm a feminist activist for eight years. So, yeah, with these comrades, with these friends, we just came together and we decided that this war is actually destroying everything we worked on in Russia. And also it will destroy many lives and it will bring poverty. It will bring terrible consequences. So as feminists, we have to step up and we have to fight it somehow.

We have to find a way to at least try to stop this war. But you're not actually in Russia at the moment, is that right? No, I'm studying in London, yes. So I'm participating distantly. Remotely and trying to help organise. What is it like if you are trying to protest, and in your instance you're working with women, as a woman in Russia at the moment, how does your protest actually happen?

Yeah, at the moment if you try to protest, if you make to protest, if you make a demonstration or just a single picket, you will be immediately arrested by the police. And then you may face the civil case or a criminal case for your action. Because I mentioned the TV journalist. Do we know what's happened with Marina? Yeah, Marina, actually, she faced a surprisingly mild punishment.

She faced a civil case and she was fined. She paid 30,000 rubles. It's just before the war, it was about 300 pounds. So it's still quite a big salary in some regions of Russia, a month's salary. But for a propagandist who worked for one of the main Russian TV channels, propaganda channels, I wouldn't say it's a big sum of money. And she's no longer in Russia, is that right? There's reports that she's taken refuge elsewhere.

I'm not sure, but I know that she got a job in a German magazine, right? Yes, that's what I was alluding to. I think that's the case. Of course, we would very much like to have her on the programme. We'll see what happens. But, Ella, staying with you and the women that you're working with, if you can't protest on the streets because of what will happen to you, how is protest happening?

Yeah, so now we have several divisions of what we're doing. We started as a small group, but now we have quite a big coordinating group and dozens of feminist groups inside of Russia and outside of Russia who joined our movement. And what we're trying to do is, first of all, to break the information blockade, because as you may know, in Russia, many independent media were closed or blocked and some of the social media were blocked.

So we are trying to distribute the information about the war, the truth of what is going on in Ukraine. So we're doing online campaigning, but also our members, our participants, they are doing offline action like distributing leaflets, stickers, even some kind of newspapers, like handmade newspapers about what is going on. We also have a strike fund. So we are collecting money and we are helping those activists who lost their jobs because of their action. We have a psychological support group for those activists who faced actually police violence when they were detained on the street protests. And we are trying to build a volunteer service which will help those Ukrainians who were brought to Russia by force.

There are thousands of people like this and who want to leave Russia. And in terms of why you think this, in terms of the way that this protest is happening with your organisation, why do you think this is a feminist issue? Well, for us, it's certainly a feminist issue because war, it brings poverty, it brings a lot of violence and especially violence against vulnerable groups. And, you know, feminist movement, it's all about helping vulnerable groups

and gaining power to make these groups visible and to make these groups more powerful. to raise awareness about vulnerable groups in Russia, which we were doing to actually make Russia a less violent society. It was one of our main goals, because we have huge problems with gender violence. We have huge problems with domestic violence. We have violence in every single sphere of our public life. So what feminists were doing, they were trying to kind of change this. And of course, war wouldn't help us doing this.

And I think with this war, we will go for many years back in this. Do your family agree with what you're doing? Well, my husband very much supports what I'm doing. And he's also helping. He's also one of the volunteers in the project, which helps academics, the researchers and scholars from Ukraine to find positions outside of Ukraine for some time. Yeah, so he's very much aware.

I suppose I asked that question not to pry, but more to understand because there are differences within families and friendship groups about what they even know about what Russian army is doing in Ukraine and also whether they think Putin is justified or not. Yeah, I mean, many activists in our movement, they face terrible, they face terrible misunderstanding from the side of their families because their families think they are just traitors who were bought, who were paid by, you know, NATO and like Great Britain, for example, for what they're doing.

So, yeah, there are many conflicts like this. But I'm not in touch with my family in Russia. But yeah, I'm lucky enough to have a husband who supports me. And what's that like in terms of the opposition and people protesting? Are you largely seeing women? Are you seeing men? How does that break down in Russia at the moment? That actually is a very difficult question, because we don't have normal statistics on this matter. We don't have statistics about the anti-war protests, but we have some other

fragmented research which shows that actually in the last years, the number of women who were gaining street protests or political movements was raising. And I would say that now in the anti-war protest, we have the continuation of this tendency. And I would say that women actually became the face of this protest because they are very, very much active publicly. And it's not only feminists, it's just those women who also, they do not support feminism, for example, but they still do anti-war action and speak up. Thank you very much for talking to us today. Perhaps we will talk again. Ella Rossman,

who's looking into researching Russian feminist activism, but is one of the founders of the Feminist Anti-War Resistance, which is a collective that is active in Russia with over 32,000 followers online. Ella, thank you to you. Many of you getting in touch to express very strong views, I have to say, with regards to our first story this morning, which I'm sure we'll keep rumbling on, not least because it's an unprecedented leak from the Supreme Court, which shows this particular draft that the legal right to abortion in America might be about to be overturned

and something to take very seriously indeed. An incredible message from Danielle who says, I'm an American expat living here in the UK with a 10-year-old daughter. We are looking at moving back home to the US. If Roe is overturned, that will change our plans. I miss home, but I cannot do that to my daughter. A message from Catherine who says,

what about the unborn child? Abortion is killing a human being. The unborn should also have a right to exist. And another one here, which is a very recent experience. Thank you for sending this in. I would be eight months pregnant if I had not been able to have an abortion. If I'd had my right to choose taken away from me,

I would have been forced to take other precautions as I was in no way ready to have a baby. By making abortions illegal, it adds to the notion that it is a shameful act, which in 2022 is something that needs to change. Keep your messages coming in. But talking about the female body, let's hear about a new tool, the first of its kind. It's been designed to enable medical students to have a better understanding of the woman's body, the female body. It's a digital 3D model, which shows what the developers call the most detailed female anatomy model ever produced. Its aim is to prevent women getting incorrectly diagnosed, which we know is a major issue.

It was launched earlier this year and is being used at the moment to teach first-year medical students at Brighton and Sussex Medical School. Professor Claire Smith is Head of Anatomy at the medical school. Joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

I have to say, this video, I looked at this, not actually knowing we were talking about this on today's programme. I hadn't read my briefs yet. I was watching it yesterday. It was so widely shared on the BBC website and lots of people wanting to engage with this. Why do you think it struck a chord? I think it's probably struck a chord because we maybe think that this has already been out there for quite a long time. And actually, it hasn't. We still have so many biases

in how we teach medical students and allied healthcare professions that maybe it's something that people really thought had been done and dealt with a long time ago. Because is it right at the moment that the default is still male

a lot of the time when you're learning medicine? So historically, we learned anatomy by dissecting male executed prisoners. And that was very much how textbooks were generated. And those images and how that's represented has stayed. So there is a lot of underrepresentation of female anatomy in medical texts. And that's obviously not ideal for learning exactly how to diagnose what's going on with a woman and what she's struggling with.

No, definitely not, because 50% of patients are going to be biologically female. And we need to really make sure that our future healthcare practitioners truly understand what the body is, how to examine it, and are really up to date on all of their latest knowledge. How are the male and female forms, how the anatomy is different? It's a great question. There is elements within the skull that's different, so elements about the angle of our jaw, our mandible,

elements of the surface anatomy the protuberances that sit there between our eyebrows and at the back of our head um the bones so for example the long bones are slightly different particularly our hip bone and how that enables our pelvises to be slightly wider the angles at which our bones join and the knee are different. Obviously, the pelvis is orientated to be particularly geared up towards childbirth. So there's lots of differences. Our muscle mass,

we have 30% less muscle mass than males typically. So that's quite significant differences. And this model, I mean, I know we're talking on the radio, but to describe it for those who haven't seen it what strikes you about it? We're really fortunate at BSMES to have a fantastic body donation program so we work we use this model alongside our very generous people who donate their body to us and what I really find strikes it is the clarity of the

detail it took them four years of expert research um this is complete anatomy the product developers to build this up from the ground up so I know that when our medical students are there dissecting examining a human body that they can go from looking at an example of, say, a menopausal breast in real life, in real tissue, to looking at the extreme detail of it using this product there right next to them. And then when they're out on the wards, they can still use this app and still have that detail there at their fingertips. Professor Claire Smith, Head of Anatomy at Brighton and Sussex Medical School thank you very much indeed and I should say, if you missed our programme yesterday it was a special bank holiday programme

I'm not going to play a clip now but it's fully available on BBC Sounds just to talk about education here I had a real education on women and folk music and some of you also sending in messages about that if you want to catch back up, it's fully available on BBC Sounds. And I did get to talk to the folk legend, Peggy Seeger, who was just brilliant. Absolutely fantastic to hear from her

and some of her stories and some of the music about that. And also, of course, what's been at the heart of today's programme, most of our programmes, what it's like being a woman in her particular scenario. But I'm now going to take us to Threads, which is our series about the feelings and memories associated with the clothes we just can't part with. And one of you, our lovely listeners, Vanessa in North Yorkshire,

has been in touch about a homemade dress, which I believe, Vanessa, means an awful lot. Good morning. Morning, Emma. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Lovely to have you on the programme. Can you start by describing the dress to us? Yeah, it's a very simple shift dress in a shiny red fabric, which I actually made myself and I'm no seamstress at all.

So it was a case of being a poor student back in the 90s and wanting to have something to go out clubbing in. And so, yeah, I created this very basic shift dress, which I happened to be wearing the night that I met my husband. So I was going to say, this is not just the creation of it that's important and you managing to fashion something. It's what happened when you were wearing it that has elevated it. Absolutely, yes. It just holds a lot of sentimental value to me, really. It's certainly not something I'd ever wear again. Why not?

I did actually recently try it on and amazingly it fits a little bit tight and incredibly short. Well, I think that was probably a nice moment that it also still fits. Yeah, yeah, not too bad, especially it's 27 years ago. And what sort of look were you going for with it, do you think? Oh, well, obviously it being quite short, it was, you know, sort of a clubbing version dress from the 90s. So, yeah, it wasn't the best of fashion.

Well, something obviously went right with how you looked and I'm sure how you were, more about than how you looked, with meeting your other half that night. Well, absolutely, yeah, yeah. But it's moved with me a few times. Well, this is what I love about this, Suze. We hear about these items and wherever people have gone in the world, whatever they've done, whichever home they're in,

these are the, well, often it's one thing or perhaps two things they can't not take with them. What does it mean to you to have it and where do you store it? It's just hung up at the back of my wardrobe. I'm a bit of a hoarder. I do have a collection of lots of old clothes, but this one particularly, I would never wear it again, but I just can bit of a hoarder. I do have a collection of lots of old clothes, but this one particularly, I would never wear it again,

but I just can't get rid of it. It's just, yeah, it's there. And it's funny because I showed my daughter it and she was just horrified that her dad could even fancy me in it. She was like, that's so hideous. I love that. I love that.

Is it still clean? No, still got a stain of probably one of the drinks I spilt down on that night. I probably did wear it after. Love that. Love that. Didn't bother cleaning it at the time. Still got it 27 years later and it's hanging in the wardrobe. It's interesting.

We've also had a notice with the trend of quite a few homemade items that people have kept. So not necessarily that they've made. Sometimes if it's especially a children's piece of clothing, it's being made for them. Perhaps there's something about the endurance of that. I don't know. Yeah, definitely. It certainly didn't start a hobby that I did very often after. But it was, yeah, I think the fact that actually I made

something it was I was quite proud of myself perhaps at the time so does your husband remember the dress uh no he doesn't there you go he was like oh right okay but what does he think you were wearing that that's not really what he's focusing on. Obviously not. Some of these conversations I've noticed only go one way when they refer back to a romantic moment with a piece of clothing. But not that I'm suggesting anything. Vanessa, what a lovely memory. And do you think your daughter would ever wear it?

Absolutely not, no. Just judging by her response when she saw it. Although she does like stealing my clothes now. But yeah, maybe 90s fashion is making a comeback. So, you know. Well, it might indeed. And I suppose for you, is there something that you think she might keep?

Is there anything you think she might be holding onto already? It's one of those things that maybe you've bought her and that she doesn't throw away already. Yeah, possibly. Definitely. I mean, yeah, I still have things that were my mum's. Did your mum make clothes as well?

Because a lot of people learn it from their mum. She did, actually, yeah, she did. She's a much better seamstress than me, so I think that was probably why I made it at the time. But, yeah, I definitely keep a lot of things that she made me in the past as well. Well, it's lovely to talk to you, Vanessa. Thank you very much for sharing it with us.

I mean, maybe you need to give it a wash, but maybe that'll make it disintegrate. It probably will, yes. Thank you so much, Vanessa, there, about a dress that she wore and on the night that she met her husband 27 years ago. Well, we've been thinking about something nearly 50 years ago with regards the whole way through the programme

and so many of you getting in touch about this major leak from the Supreme Court which could precursor the legal right to abortion in America being overturned. So many messages.

I said I'd return. Women should have rights over their own bodies, reads this message, and men should have no say in that. I have to say, that's a very strong theme

having had looked at this, it being a man who'd written this judgment and it will be, it's four men and one woman who we expect if this is the case to support it. No man should have a say in that. This is all about control. The argument about the unborn child is just a smoke screen. Of course, we've had many other messages talking about the rights of the unborn child. They want to control and restrict women from being equal with men, says Anne Williamson. Anne, thank you very much for messaging in. My British daughter in America had an abortion, aged 38, because she'd not been in her job long enough to have health insurance. And it was a difficult, symptomatic early pregnancy.

And she just couldn't afford to have a baby. This broke my heart. But, of course, I supported her totally. She's 43 now. I have a baby. This broke my heart, but of course I supported her totally. She's 43 now. I have no grandchildren. I'm thankful she lived in a liberal state where she could access the medical help she needed, but I'm still sad. Very different message, a very unique message indeed.

Thank you very much to whoever sent that. And thank you as always for your company today. It's been a pleasure. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes of Victorian murderesses through the eyes of 21st century feminists.

What can we learn from these women, and would it be any different today? Listen to Ladykillers on BBC Sounds. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know... It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.