Woman's Hour - Carers and the pandemic, Blind pregnancy test, Suffrage Science Award

Episode Date: November 6, 2020

In April we spoke to Liz Brookes who looks after her husband Mike, who has had vascular dementia and to Chris Black who cares for his wife, Helen, who has Picks disease, or Frontal Temperal dementia. How they are getting on six months later? Emily Holzhausen, Director of Policy and Public Affairs from Carers UK joins them.For blind or partially sighted women it is impossible to read visual results of a standard pregnancy test. The Royal National Institute for the Blind has designed a prototype for a tactile test which means the user can maintain their independence and privacy. Jane Garvey talks to the Chair of the RNIB Ellie Southwood.Leila and Sahand were both married to other people when they fell in love and had a child together. Adultery is a crime in Iran, fearing for their lives they fled their homeland for a safe life elsewhere. We speak to Leila and to the director Eva Mulvad who has made a documentary film ‘Love Child’ about their life over the last seven years.Women still make up only 24% of those working in core science, technology, engineering and mathematics occupations in the UK, and recent data has revealed that women make up just 13% of students studying computer science in the UK. There is a similar lack of women studying mathematics courses. The Suffrage Science awards scheme hopes to change this. Jane is joined by science communicator Dr. Kat Arney and Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and a warm welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's the 6th of November 2020. Hello, good morning. Welcome to Friday. We hear about refugees all the time, but what is it like to be one? We'll find out this morning. Just a quarter of people working in STEM occupations in the UK are female. Only 13% of people studying computer studies at university are women.

Why and what can be done to change that? Perhaps the Suffrage Science Awards will go some way to doing something about that situation. That's later in the programme. But we want to focus initially on carers. I know that many of our regular listeners have caring responsibilities of one sort or another. And please do get involved this morning or email the programme a little bit later, perhaps when you have more time,

at bbcwomanshour on social media or the website, of course, is how you can email us, bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. Research from Carers UK is showing that four in five carers are reporting that they are still providing more care than before the lockdown and nearly two thirds are really quite concerned about how they're going to manage over the winter.

Now, back in April, it does seem a lifetime ago now, we talked to Liz Brooks who is a former nurse. She lives near Rochdale with her husband Mike who's had vascular dementia for nine years. Liz is in her 60s, Mike is in his late 70s. Now Mike was in the RAF, he drove trucks, he ran his own business. Chris Black in Hornchurch in Essex cares for his wife Helen who has PICS disease or frontal temporal dementia. Both are in their 50s. Helen worked as a graphic designer and we can also get the wisdom of Emily Hosshausen, Director of Policy and Public Affairs from Carers UK. First of all let's check in with Liz and with Chris. Liz, first of all,

good morning to you. How are you today? I'm okay. Nice sunny day here in Rochdale for a change. Brilliant. Okay. I hope it's a sunny day in most of the country because we haven't got much else to cling on to at the moment. So a bit of sunshine does all of us the world of good. Liz, we talked back in April and well, tell us how things have progressed or deteriorated, depending on what's happened for you and for Mike since. Well, like a lot of people with dementia, lockdown hasn't been very kind to Mike. He has deteriorated quite significantly and certainly faster than I might have expected over normal circumstances. We also have had a revised diagnosis. He we've been told he now has Alzheimer's on top of his vascular dementia and that was delivered by telephone rather than face-to-face which was pretty brutal.

Mike also now goes to a day centre twice a week and that's been a lifesaver for both of us really because he now gets out more than I do because I have to continue to self-isolate in order to protect that placement Let me just stop you there because that's something that I hadn't appreciated so Mike is at least going out,

but to allow him to carry on going out, you can't go out. No, that's about the bottom of it. Wow, that's quite a load on you, isn't it? Okay, on top of everything else. And the fact that that diagnosis was, as you say, delivered by phone. You say it would have been slightly easier to hear it in person. What was the impact of just getting that information on the phone? It was a bit of a hammer blow, really, because there was nobody else there to make a cup of tea, offer me some tissues or to give me a hug. So it was a very, very lonely, tough moment.

And how are you doing? Not great. I found that I was getting increasingly anxious and really very bleak thoughts started to take over. And so I'm now on antidepressants, which have helped quite a lot. But I'm one of the two thirds who is absolutely dreading the next few months. What sort of help have you got over the period of this winter in terms of other relatives, your own friends?

Do you get regular phone calls? What have you got? I've got phone calls from the Alzheimer's Society. I get a regular check-in from Salford Institute for Dementia Studies of people with dementia and carers. We have a regular session, which is really great. Relatives don't live close by, so that's a non-starter. We had a very good friend who we formed a bubble with, but unfortunately she died three weeks ago. And so that's another supporter, and a wonderful supporter at that, who we have lost.

Liz, do you listen to music, podcasts? Is the radio your friend? What else have you got going on? I love the radio. The radio's great, but Mike finds noise very difficult. So often our house is very quiet. He does still watch a bit of telly, but I do monitor that because if we get stuck into the news, then he gets very upset.

And I do. I'm avoiding the news like the proverbial play. But when he's not here, then I can listen to music and just do other things. Hang on there, Liz. Thank you very much. Chris, I know back when we talked in the spring, you were very keen, I don't think that's unfair, to keep on caring for Helen on your

own. Now, have you been able to do so? And I pass no judgment, by the way, I wouldn't be able to do a tenth of what you've been doing. But tell us what's happened. Good morning, Jane. My heart goes out to Liz. I'm really, really upset hearing what's happening to Liz. But it's difficult. It's difficult when you're on your own. And even when you're not physically on your own, you feel mentally on your own. But to go back to your question, yes, it was very, very difficult.

It was a tough decision to make. I'm glad I made it. And I looked after Helen 24-7 for 84 days before I realized that I needed help. And It was affecting my mental capacity to cope with the situation. Excuse me, just a minute. So, yes, it was difficult, but I'm glad I did it because I could, you know, guarantee that there was no one coming to the house. And, you know, there was no risk of catching the infection from other people. Now, Liz spoke about Mike deteriorating. Can I ask how Helen is? Yeah, Helen's OK.

The thing with PICS disease is that she's lost all awareness of her surroundings and what's going on other than food that's presented to her or the magic word chocolate. But yeah, in general terms, it's been a slow decline. We had a couple of instances where she had a blackout, she collapsed and she ended up in A&E, rigged up to all sorts of equipment. Eventually we found it was low blood pressure which was causing her to collapse. And that occurred when we were doing crafts and drawing sitting at the kitchen table. So we've just moved the crafts and activity to a different area and she seems fine then. Generally, she's just functioning as a body.

You know, she's still doubling continent, dribbling and spitting and she's unable to tell us what's going on. She's unable to verbalise what's going on. So there's little noises that mean certain things. You did say that you'd done 84 days. So that's three months, Chris, on your own looking after Helen. You have got carers in a couple of times a day now, is that right? Yes, we've got carers in during the daytime, weekdays and weekends now as well. So that's an absolute godsend because it means if I, you know, I don't really sleep at night, Helen's

in her own little room. We've now got a nice comfortable hospital bed for her um and a monitor and i'm in the room next door to that so my one eye and one ear is always listening out for her um i have to sort of adjust her sleeping position if she's coughing um but um sorry jane i'm lost in the emotion there what What was the question again? And they've been prioritised for a range of support and exempted from inter-house mixing rules. We also have in the press release, they point out the fact that as part of the department's pandemic response, we've given access to £4.6 billion to councils in England, including to support adult social care. So, Emily, what more could and should the government do, do you believe?

Thank you ever so much. There are a number of different things that government can do. I mean, this new guidance about intermixing of households is really important because people were worried about whether they could go, you know, with daughter going and providing support to mum and dad. Can we do that? And the answer is, yes, you can.

I mean, the funding into social care is really important, but we're still seeing very low levels of funding overall, just because of the state that social care was in beforehand. If we look at the types of services that Liz and Chris have been relying on, about half the services, day services, have not reopened during the pandemic, so carers tell us. So this is two precious days where Mike goes into the day service. There are half of carers who are not getting that at all. There are things that would make life so much easier for those in care homes, Of course, testing and key visiting times and policies,

that's really critical. And being able to get PPE as an unpaid carer if you're in particular situations. What's the situation as far as you know about it in terms of PPE? There are some local councils that have got some limited supplies for PPE for carers and we want to see that of course it's vital for when we look at care homes and visiting that that we've got PPE for that but the other thing I wanted to mention as well Jane is that is that people who are on in receipt of carers allowance don't get universal credit have not seen an uplift to their

income so government has given 20 pounds a week which is very welcome to people in receipt of universal credit to recognize the increased costs that they've got yeah i mean it is only still 20 quid a week but but carry on yeah but it but it but for those people on really low incomes it makes such a difference. And so all those carers who don't get universal credit are missing out on that. And a large proportion of those, of course, are women. About two thirds, sorry, nearly three quarters are women. So that's another thing that we would like to see urgently changed.

What about the fact that, and I think there has been a lot of pressure from charities and other organisations, what about the fact that people with dementia are not named as highly clinically vulnerable? That has implications as well, doesn't it? It does in some respects. I mean, the families themselves have taken, have made a decision to shield very often. A large proportion have shielded their families because they're so worried about risk. And you can see from what Liz and Chris were saying, just the lengths that people have gone to to protect family and to keep them supported. We've been asking for a broader definition within all the regulations which we've succeeded this time around which is good which covers also there are other disabilities that weren't covered necessarily so things like

mental illness and autism are now very clearly covered on these rules around being able to mix between different households if you're giving somebody a break. So that is that's that's that's very welcome. But we've still got a long road to travel before we are. We are really in a position where we can get families are getting the right support. And part of this worry too is we just don't know how long this is going to go on for. And carers are so worried about winter. Well, what we have to pin our hopes on is a vaccine, which we keep being told is coming our way. I'm sure, Emily, you would argue that carers have absolutely got to be completely

prioritised if and when that becomes available. I couldn't agree with you more. Sadly, they're not prioritised. They're not on the priority list. They are for flu and flu jabs. And the argument is that obviously, if the carer gets flu, it's catastrophic for the person being cared for, because not only might they get it and be at risk, but also the amount of care that might need to be provided and put in at very short notice. But at the moment, carers are not on the priority list for vaccines. And that is their second top ask. They want to be on that list and they want to be a priority.

Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. That's Emily from Carers UK. Liz, what are you anticipating over this weekend? Can you just give us an idea of what your life is going to consist of over the next couple of days? It's going to be finding constructive things to do together and keeping my occupied and stimulated is going to be a big ask because um we're bored with each other um and and the days are very very long and and going back to

your earlier thing about the the government recognizes the value of unpaid care i don't feel valued i don't feel recognized. I don't feel recognised. I feel invisible and unheard because they are not responding adequately to what the carers and dementia charities are saying to them. And clearly, if I get COVID, who looks after Mike?

They've got to protect us. Liz, thank you very much. I know you'll be speaking for many people listening. And Chris, what about you? Tell us about what you're going to be doing this weekend. I agree with Liz. There needs to be more funding and support for us on a mental level. And also, there's one admiral nurse in our region that covers four local boroughs, just one nurse.

And it's not sufficient support for us. So I thought I'd just quickly put that in there. But I know you do think the world of them, don't you, the admiral nurses? Oh, they're tremendous. They give us support. Sam from our local borough, she pops in, we chat on the telephone. She's the conduit to helping someone like myself, who's normally very organised and sensible, but because of the stress and mental anguish and the situation we're in, I can't think straight about these types of things. So applying for additional support and funding is just something that is beyond my ability at the moment. So Sam is the conduit for that. And anything else, the district nurse, we're still waiting for our flu jabs. And I think the government needs to realise that we are a priority because if Liz isn't there,

if I'm not here to look after Helen, the cost of them going into permanent full-time care is thousands per week and we pay £20 a week to be a carer. Yeah, I think this is something we cannot emphasise enough, that the hours that you and Liz and many, many hundreds of thousands of other people are putting in, you're saving the rest of us a load of money. And we do need to acknowledge that. Thank you.

I know that's not why you're doing it, by the way. Chris, thank you very much. Thank you, Jane. Take care of yourself. Best wishes to Liz. Yeah, I'm sure she will. I know she'll send them back to you. Chris Black, Liz Brooks,

and we welcome your thoughts at BBC Women's Hour on social media, or you can email the programme via our website. Now, this is a conversation about a documentary, which is an incredibly intimate one about refugees and what you might call the refugee experience. Leila and Sahand were both married to other people in Iran when they met and fell in love and had a child together. But adultery is a crime in Iran, and fearing for their lives, they fled to Turkey. Now, the couple's story is at the heart of this documentary. It's called Love Child, and it's directed by Eva Morvad. Eva explained that the couple don't fit the traditional refugee stereotype.

I felt in a way it was a bit cheating to show really resourceful people with education and skills who didn't come out of the most dramatic situations, as a lot of the refugees do. But then we understood that today in the world, you say there are around 70 million people who are replaced and they are like us, different. They're not one kind. So I thought that it was a point in itself to underline that refugees are human beings. I mean, I think we all know that, but we tend to forget it. And also, I think it's a point that these people are very easy to relate to. And one of the things that was very important to me was that I think we need to re-humanize the refugee theme.

So these people actually are very good at showing us how it would be if I were in their shoes. Well, Leila, it's clear that you were in real danger in Iran. Why did you have to get out? I had a husband, but we didn't have a good life. I mean, we had many deep and serious problems with each other. He had the other life. He used drugs.

And for many times, I went to the court to get divorced. But based on the laws in Iran, they didn't let me to divorce. If your husband doesn't allow you, then it's not your right to divorce. Then each time the court asked me about the, am I satisfied with the economical issues? And I said, yes, we have no problem economically. And it was really enough for them. They said that, OK, if you're economically satisfied, then you should continue. You should find a solution. But it was something like a circle.

We couldn't find a solution. I understand you wanted to leave your husband, but you were not allowed to by the authorities who said that as long as you had money, then you shouldn't really have any problems. But by then, you had a son with Sahan. Yes, on that time, on that worst days that I experienced with my ex-husband, on those days, those dark days, I found Sahan like a friend. And we spoke with each other. Also, Sahan was in a very deep, darkest days of his life. And we found each other very close with each other also sahan was in a very deep darkest days of his life and

we found each other's very close to each other and then we had a marriage but illegal one and we had a son and after that the problems get bigger because the ministry of intelligence understand our relationship and uh you know in such corrupted systems like intelligence systems, if they can find the problems from you, they can use those problems against you and ask you to do whatever that they want. And because of that, we see that, OK, the coming days are going to get worse.

After me, they're going to use money use money my son and then we decided to go out how did you escape uh for us we took decision it takes time to speak with my family a bit and also just with my mommy i didn't tell my story to my family on that time. And then we collected some documents and video clips about ourselves because it was very risky to come out. And we just sent those clips outside to show to someone, to prove someone that we are in danger. And if something happened for us, at least one person, some people in the world understand that we are in danger and something happens for this family.

That time that I passed in that flight was worse than all days that I was in Iran. Because each second, I suppose that somebody come from the Ministry of Intelligence and knocked on my shoulder to say that, OK, calm. Eva, how do you feel about potentially compromising the safety of the people in your film?

Were you worried about that? Yes, we discussed that a lot. And I think Leila and Sahan know a lot about how the system works in Iran, even more than I do, as Leila is also very concerned about her family back in Iran. We have also tried to block the film from not being able to be streamed there or in Turkey. So that's also a kind of protection. So it cannot be shown or viewed in Iran or in Turkey. And Leila, Turkey is where you escaped to. And you're still there, aren't you?

Yes, we are. What is your current status? We came here and suppose that during one year, two years, three years maximum, they're going to replace us in some safe country, because Turkey also is very near and had some kind of deals with Iran. And then we came here and it passed nine years. We are stateless. They call us stateless because we don't have citizenship of this country. But do you feel safe there? Not at all. For me, it's very difficult to come out to be in the streets and suppose that somebody

is chasing us, following us, and we are under the magnifier of someone, but you have no other choice. You should continue. You have a child. You should work. Yes. Leila, there'll be people listening to this interview in Britain who just take their British passport for granted, if they think about it at all. What does it mean to be stateless?

Emotionally, what does it mean? Stateless means that, you know, I come from a country. My country, yes, the Islamic rules, I don't like it, but my country also has culture in poetry, and I come from that country, the great, the glorious civilization. But, I mean, stateless for me means ruthless. It's something like you don't belong to anywhere. You are like alien among the other people.

And you should start from zero. Me and Sahand, we didn't come just to promote ourselves, to have a better job, to have a better society level. No, just we wanted somewhere in the world, accept us just as a simple family, just as a human right. But I think you express that brilliantly and you say that you want to reclaim your Iranian heritage and you're very proud of it. How does your son view himself? My son tried to adapt himself to this society and to his friends,

but still he can't see himself as same as the other kids. Eva, is that your intention really, just to communicate to people outside the situation how awful being stateless actually is? It's one of the messages in the film. It's very important for us who hasn't been in the situation of a refugee, actually, to notice what basic rights mean. I take it for granted, but it's what we build our societies upon, that we are secure in the system, that we can go to the police,

we can go to court, all of these things that we take for granted. But another part of the film was for me to kind of re-humanize the whole theme of being a refugee, because I myself kind of got numb seeing these kind of news repeating with all of the horrible situations around refugees in the world and nobody really taking any responsibility about it. So I think it's important to remember that behind all the statistics, there are destinies and that's real people. And real people who are, there is no happy ending here. I appreciate that they are safer as a family in Turkey than they were in Iran. But I suppose I watched the film and I thought there'd be a resolution for them.

And there isn't because that's not real life. No, unfortunately. And I think in Europe these days, our politicians, they are good at avoiding taking this responsibility. I'm not saying it's easy to solve it, but I think not trying doesn't help any of these people. And it doesn't help us because we are also kind of partly responsible because we are behind these politicians and the system and the UNHCR. So I think it's a shame that we kind of neglect this. The film is called Love Child. It's in virtual cinemas and on demand from today. And it really does give you an insight. As I said there in the interview, no resolution, I'm afraid, for that family, but a real insight into just what being stateless actually means. Next week on the programme, did you know, this is positive, that nowadays more women than men have allotments?

We'd love some pictures of your allotment if you've got an allotment. There's probably not much going on in the allotment right now, but show us your allotment in all its glory. You can send us images to at BBC Woman's Hour. Also next week, is there marriage guidance for older couples? Bearing in mind that obviously older people, well, all of us are spending more time inside at the moment because we don't have any other options. What is it like to have been married perhaps for 50, over 60 years and to be struggling a little bit right now. So we'll talk about that next week. And Nigella Lawson is our guest on Thursday. So that's going to be nice.

Looking forward to that. Now, women still make up just a quarter of people working in STEM in the UK. And perhaps this is more important, perhaps more worrying. 13 percent, just 13 percent of students taking computer science in the UK at uni are women. The Suffrage Science Award scheme is one attempt to change this and the winners are chosen by previous award winners. We can talk now to the science communicator, Dr Kat Arney, and to Dr Anne-Marie Imafidan, who passed her A-levels in maths and computer science at the age of 11. She is the founder of the organisation STEMETS. Welcome both. Kat,

good morning to you. Good morning. Tell us about the Suffrage Science Award Scheme. What is it? So the Suffrage Science Award Scheme was set up in 2011 by Professor Amanda Fisher, who's actually my former boss when I was a researcher. And she's the director of the MRC London Institute for Medical Sciences. And the idea was to, I guess, really build a network to bring together women in science. And the idea was, instead of, you know, giving people like a little trinket or an award that just sits on your mantelpiece and gathers dust forever, that these would be beautiful pieces of heirloom jewellery. And the suffrage science comes from the suffragette jewellery that suffragettes would give to each other with certain colours, you know, the white, the purple, the green, these beautiful pieces of heirloom jewellery designed by

Central Saint Martins, and that they would be passed on every two years. So, you know, we just look after these beautiful things and pass them on to the next generation. And the scheme started with life sciences and has expanded to include maths and computing and the engineering and physical sciences. And we now have a network of 148 women all around the world who've received these pieces of jewellery and are passing them on. And it's, you know, you can go, oh, well, that's very nice, isn't it? You know, lovely. But there's more to it than that. The idea is that we actually think of ways to do really practical things to encourage women in science, all women in science,

and to get girls into science and to think about what we can all do as women in science to encourage this, because it's not a given and we are not there yet. No, I think what we can't emphasise enough is that it's not simply a question of getting girls to do science A-levels or maths A-levels or get them to study computer science at university, although that would be brilliant. It's about the lifelong impact on the way our world works, because if women aren't involved in tech, then women are likely to suffer because the tech won't be right for us. to Anne-Marie about this, we have certainly not solved the diversity problem in women in science and in science generally, but more diverse people going into science and technology makes for better science. It makes for better products. It makes for better ideas, better technology, better research. You know, the book Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez highlights that women are just not involved in clinical trials. Female animals are not used in

medical research. There is a huge problem here, still ongoing. You know, we've been talking about women in science since I was a PhD student 20 years ago. And you'd think we should have fixed this by now. And in some cases, you know, in the biological sciences, it is getting better. But, you know, as you highlighted in maths, computing, engineering and physics, we still do have a big, big problem. Well, let's bring Anne-Marie in. Anne-Marie, first of all, I know you don't want to focus on this too much, but getting those qualifications at the age of 11, how was that possible for you? Obviously, you were very bright, but you must have received encouragement from school and home. Definitely. I had, I mean, and this is why it's so important to have you know parents

and the influencers we call them at Stamets involved in as much as is possible yeah I had supportive parents who could have never made me feel a particular way because I was their daughter versus being their son but also at school I think it was more frustration from my teachers that I was bouncing off the walls and So they wanted to give me something that at least would get me to calm down, would get my mind ticking, rather than any of the maths that we'd already covered several times, I guess, because that's the way the education system is set up. So it was out of frustration. They wanted Anne-Marie to sit still. Okay. And you obviously are. I mean, let's just own the fact that you are brilliantly clever and good luck to you, by the way. How marvellous. We need to celebrate that. How did the other pupils view, whether it was me trying to help people with coursework in exchange for kind of free lunch,

because, you know, who doesn't like free food? Or whether it was, you know, me using that as excuses to get out of lessons because I was doing something slightly more advanced. I think for me and with my other students, you know, what we did socially was what we did socially. And what was happening academically was kind of a little bit separate from that so I was never you know really ostracized and even when I went up to Oxford I was never really made to feel like other it was just this is Amory's thing um and I'm you know that it is what it is really so there was there was no big animosity or even kind of big-time jealousy that played out I think what what ended up happening actually was that you know it became tough for my teachers and they were the ones that

I had more issues with than my peers or my tough because quite frankly you knew more than them no I mean just you may well have done okay I'm older and wiser now so I'm trying not to maybe one day I'll be in that position. There's no sign of that. It has to be said. Okay, Anne-Marie, where does it start to go wrong? So we know that at GCSE level, because you have to take a range of subjects, the science subjects are taken by girls.

Anne-Marie, then what happens and why does it happen? Well, then what happens, and I think it's interesting, you know, we're just talking about my teachers, you know, there was one teacher in particular who's still actually at the school that I attended, who when I said I wanted to go to Oxford and study maths and computer science kind of laughed in my face, even though I'd already had kind of all of what I had. And so I think what happens is, you know, you end up being the only. If you are choosing these subjects, they kind of pit against each other, the sciences versus arts and social sciences or versus English.

And it's kind of you end up being dissuaded in terms of, you know, the options that you're allowed to pick. There's this practice we have where you put options, you put options, sorry, into blocks, and it's kind of art or computer science, never the two. So I think there's things like that where we end up having these kind of false decisions that people have to make very early on.

But the other thing is then, you know, if you do stick your neck out, and it's frustrating that it does feel like you're stressed sticking your neck out, being a girl that chooses physics or computer science at A-level. Then you end up being on your own in that classroom. And I think, you know, for some people, that's fine. For many, it's not. And often, you know, your peers, your teachers, others can make you feel like, you know,

why are you the only girl here in the computer science class or in the physics class? We all know more than you. And so it ends up being this cycle of, you know, if you feel like you're on your own and you're pushing against the grain so hard, there's only so long that you can do that for. And that's not an experience that boys in the main, not everyone's the same. It's not the same experience that they have being in those spaces. So I suppose in a way you're calling almost or you're putting the case for a wholesale change in our education system, a kind of more, I think the French make you study a wider range of subjects for longer. I could be wrong, think I'm right. Would that be better, Anne-Marie? Well, I don't know if we necessarily need to go that whole way. I think what we need to do is,

and it is a change in the education system, I think we need to be more open to this idea of STEAM, which is science, technology, engineering, arts and maths, and appreciating that they all come together. And, you know, you're a better scientist for having that as part of your training. But the other thing we need to do is prioritise this in the curriculum, and in the way that we teach. And it's, you know, having those role models, having a diversity of them as part of what's being taught, but also looking at the fact that science is about solving problems. It's about the wider world. And you need those two sides to fully appreciate the subject, which at the moment it kind of focuses and is quite narrowed in on particular things that aren't necessarily relevant to real life. And a lot of people, you know, they're altruistic, they're creative, and these subjects aren't taught as such and not presented as such.

The other thing I wanted to pick up on was something you said just before I came on around, you know, that you don't have to choose these subjects at A-level and GCSE to go into them. Right. And I think that's another really important thing to point to where, you know, there are so many people that work in the technology industry who don't have a GCSE in computer science. Right. are so many people that work in the technology industry who don't have a GCSE in computer science right you know they're still there they've still got a lot of value to bring and so I think we also need to be have a wider discussion and a wider perspective on this to say actually digital skills are for everyone you know whether you you go into this profession or not but there are lots of different ways for you to pick up these skills and And, you know, we had this with Stamets over the summer. We worked with the them laptops and data and devices and the rest. And these are young people who haven't been able to get the right kind of pathways in the system. They've learned Python, they've learned Agile, all these other things,

but it's not necessarily the GCSE and having to go through that, but there are other ways to pick up these skills. Sure, and we just need to make them available to people, don't we, who could... Thank you so much. That was really interesting. Dr. Anne-Marie, I forgot this right,

Dr. Anne-Marie Imafodon, MBE, by the way, which I didn't reference earlier, so apologies for that. And also you heard from the science communicator, Dr. Kat Arney. Apologise for stumbling there. I just want to squeeze in this final item because it's important. We're going to talk to the chair of the RNIB, Ellie Southwood. Ellie, hello. Good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. And what's fantastic, and it's not unconnected, is the Royal National Institute for the Blind

has designed a prototype for a tactile pregnancy test. So this is all about innovation, obviously impacting hugely on women with sight loss. So tell us, how does the test work? It's such an intimate thing, isn't it, for women when they find out whether they're pregnant or not, something probably lots of listeners take for granted. But if you can't see the test, it's actually pretty tricky. And we know that lots of women ask friends, family, even co-workers and neighbours sometimes. So they're often not the first to know that news. So we thought, well, it must be pretty straightforward to design a prototype pregnancy test,

which is fully accessible to blind and partially sighted women, but frankly, to everyone as well. So we took the standard pregnancy test, we worked with a fabulous designer, and with a creative agency and the test prototype that we have. So it's got lots of contrast of colours so that you can, if you do have some sight, you can see which way up it goes. It has the area that you wee on is a little bit larger to make that a bit more straightforward. And most importantly, there's a bump, a tactile bump that raises if it's a positive test and stays flat if it's negative. Right. And that the tactile bump consists of what? How does it know? So it obviously works in exactly the same way that the sort of colour change works. To be honest, I've never known how pregnancy tests work.

I know, I'm at the limits of my own technical knowledge too. But essentially, it's about the feedback you get. So instead of seeing the colour change, what you feel and of course see as well is that the tactile bit raises up. Right. Thus allowing that the woman to actually, as you acknowledged right at the start there, to have the privacy to find out exactly what's happening without the involvement of another individual. I confess I had never thought about this. No, it's such a straightforward thing for most women, isn't it? And like I say, you you know lots of women have to ask people who are almost strangers because you may not for different reasons want your partner to know or someone you live with um and I'm afraid there we do sometimes come up against some pretty outdated attitudes as

well so one woman you know who who asked the neighbor the response was oh it's negative probably for the best now I have no idea how she felt about the fact she wasn't pregnant. But I don't think that's the moment that blind women should have to offer teachable moments to other people. They should be the first to know. Ellie, is it going to be widely available? So we are, the really exciting thing is lots of interest from manufacturers, talking to lots of different organisations about how to get this or something very like it because the point of us doing this and raising awareness

was to demonstrate just how easily it could be done. So pregnancy tests, but lots of other products and services as well. We'd love manufacturers to, I suppose, think about how easily this could be made accessible, not just to blind women, but to everyone. Really interesting to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed. The chair of the RNIB, that was Ellie Southwood. Just seems such a good idea, doesn't it, that pregnancy test? And there's a tweet here from a listener who says, I'm really glad that you covered this on Woman's Hour. There's so much to talk about regarding access to health information for blind and partially sighted people.

Yes, I'm sure there is actually. And it's an area that we perhaps ought to do a little more on. Now to young women and women generally in STEM or rather the lack of them in STEM professions. Jean says, really seem to be any further on. It really is time we cracked it, says Jean. Well, quite, yeah, although I thought the two speakers were both brilliant and there's clearly so many people working so hard, Jean, to try to change this. Bethan says, as a teacher in a secondary school, the head of the English department, I've got to disagree with your commentators on the matter of options and choosing these subjects at a level. There is a huge push on girls in STEM,

so much so that girls can be discouraged from taking art subjects, citing a lack of career prospects. This pressure can come from parents as well as the huge institutional push. I suggest that your commentators perhaps haven't been in school for a while and are referencing their own experiences rather than the current picture. And I'm glad we've got that alternative view there. That's interesting that Bethan is in school. She's teaching English and she feels that girls are being pushed in the other direction. I should say that Anne-Marie is certainly not old.

She's 30. So and she, of course, was a very powerful mathematician involved in that conversation. Caroline says, listening to this, it reminds me of sixth form where I was doing chemistry, biology and maths for A-level. I wasn't the best behaved, so I was required to do another O-level alongside these A-levels in order to keep me busy and out of trouble. So I was made to study fashions and fabrics at O-Level, a typically female subject, which I suppose would be textiles in modern speak. I was then channelled into nursing, then another typically female role, but 20 years on I managed to retrain and I'm now a plumber.

That's a typically non-female role, but I don't regret those fashions and fabrics lessons as I can as easily make a pair of curtains as I can plumb in a water softener. Caroline, you're the woman I'm looking for. Can you come in, make me some curtains? And I've still got slight issues with the downstairs toilet. So I think I try and get hold of Caroline's details. No, don't worry, I won't because that would be against all BBC rules. But Caroline, good to hear from you. Emma says the paucity of women in STEM is going to get worse. In secondary schools during these COVID times, there's no access to science experiments and science labs in years seven, eight and nine. This will inevitably impact on inspiration, GCSE choices and life opportunities. David says about 20 years ago as the head of

computing and IT at a high school in Edinburgh I was at a parents evening. Its purpose was to guide students and their parents in making certificate course choices for year 10 in England's terms S3 as it's known in Scotland. A very able girl I was teaching arrived with her mother and I really wanted to recruit her to my computing studies certificate class. Her mother was pleased with my report but thought that her daughter might be isolated in the class as she was considering that it would largely consist of boys. Without thinking I replied that the study of computing does not require the possession of a penis. Fellow teachers on adjacent desks momentarily paused their consultations,

and the mother wasn't quite sure where to look. After what felt like an age, she smiled, and her daughter, Julie, joined my class, and over the next few years, she performed just as I thought she would. I do not know if she moved into a career in computing, but I hope she remembered my words and took heart from them. I am retired now with millennial kick-ass daughters, and I can say that very little has changed for them in the last 20 years or so. One is a comedy writer and actor, and the other a counsellor. Every day they seem to have to prove their worth and this inequity makes me so angry. Oh, that's, yeah, that's sad, David, but it's brilliant that you are such an involved

and concerned dad. So thank you very much for contacting us. Just turning over the page there. This is from Claire. We need to change our attitudes from the very earliest years. I had to put my daughter into boys' T-shirts so she had positive slogans and things she was interested in, such as dinosaurs, Minecraft, tech and space. Yeah, I mean, you still get those ridiculous T-shirts that encourage girls to, what is it, be kind.

I mean, yes, of course everyone should be kind, not just girls. From another listener, it's especially interesting that only 13% of women study computing at uni. As there is plenty of research to show how well girls perform at the school level computing classes, confidence is key. On to the subject of carers. Teresa says carers could be supported better. I am the main carer for my dad, who's 93, and I've just been refused a flu vaccination by my practice as I don't have carer's allowance yet. This needs to be relaxed as CHC assessments have been during COVID-19. Yes, I didn't appreciate that. So if you haven't, if you're not in receipt of carer's allowance, you don't get this sort of thing. And that does seem wrong.

Lewis says, I am a carer's engagement officer supporting unpaid carers in Blanau Gwent and carers are really struggling. We are spending hours on the phone providing emotional support to try to help carers feel less alone. I really do feel for these people. It can be tough in normal times, let alone now. And Annie, echoing many of you, just a heart-wrenching hearing from both Liz and Chris. Well, it was. I just hope they feel better for actually getting a bit of space

to talk about how they are and how they're coping. And I do, I hope they both hear the podcast or word gets back to them that so many of you have been kind enough to email in and tweet in with your support. From Alistair, as the only available one of four sons, I cared for my mother through her Parkinson's after my dad's death until she herself passed away. I was fortunate to be able to take a sabbatical from my job to do so. As a traditional family, we were able to do this and agree the financial side of it between us. The NHS and the Scottish Government carer's support was helpful, but we never saw it as replacing our own responsibility towards our parents.

We would not have had it any other way, but it's good that the state can step in for those less fortunate. Anonymous, carers get priority for the flu vaccine? As I'm under 65, I've had to be quite persistent with my GP surgery, even though I am recorded as my mother's primary carer and we attend the same practice. Carers are entitled to the NHS vaccine, but it appears to be at the discretion of the individual surgery when you're allowed to get it. I will get it in two weeks' time,

but I have to present my carer's allowance award letter when I attend. There's clearly a mixed picture when it comes to the flu vaccine. And finally, we'll go to Joy. I care for my blind daughter and at weekends my mother. There's clearly a mixed picture when it comes to the flu vaccine. And finally, we'll go to Joy. I care for my blind daughter and at weekends my mother, who is 95 and also blind. This involves being in one town during the week, supporting her at a specialist college,

travelling home with her at weekends. I often spend days without talking to anyone. My art and fitness classes have been cancelled. I use a radio all the time and my advice to the lady, and that was Liz, whose husband is noise sensitive, is to buy a personal radio and to use earbuds. I often just use one and tuck the other down my jumper so I can hear sounds around. Yeah, sounds around you. Yes, I get that, Joy. What can I say about that experience? I know it just doesn't help for me to say, Joy, we hear you and we hope you're OK and continue to be so. And please keep in touch with us.

And please, all listeners who are wrestling with a whole range of challenges at the moment, it is worth emailing the programme. You might feel it isn't, but trust me, people do read the moment. It is worth emailing the programme. You might feel it isn't, but trust me, people do read the emails and we want to do as much as we can on Woman's Hour to hear your concerns and to give space on the radio to those concerns. So just drop us an email

through the website. I know it may be challenging even to find the time to be able to do so, but please do try if you feel there's something that just is not being discussed anywhere else bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour thanks for listening to the woman's hour podcast if you're at a loose end over the weekend um fortunately it's a podcast i do with little known radio 4 colleague fee glover it's it's

probably it's really just to help fee out. But we talk about all sorts of nonsense, unfortunately. It's sometimes not for the faint hearted. So the edition with Joan and Jerrica last week may not necessarily be for everybody. But this week, we've got Bananarama on. And they're great, Keren and Sarah, really good value. And fortunately, it's coming to Radio 4, so there'll be no escaping it. It's on Radio 4 in the new year, but the podcast is available now. So if you even can just about tolerate me,

you might like me in conversation with Fi and this week with Bananarama. I won't say have a good weekend because we won't, but dig in and we'll be back Monday morning, just after 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.