Woman's Hour - Caring for autistic children; Frozen 2; The Missing Cryptoqueen

Episode Date: November 21, 2019

Over the last month parents, as well as MPs and peers, have spoken out about autistic children and vulnerable adults being placed in hospitals for a long time and sometimes treated poorly. The Joint Committee of Human Rights said mental health hospitals can inflict “terrible suffering on those detained … causing anguish to their distraught family.” One mother in the West Midlands got in touch with us to tell us about her daughter. Her daughter has autism and other mental health conditions and went to hospital when she was 14. She’s now 28 and has never returned home. In fact, she’s in her sixth hospital, 80 miles from her family. She spoke to Siobhann Tighe about how her daughter’s absence has affected the whole family.As Disney releases Frozen 2, we’ll be discussing how it’ll go down with its young audience. Its predecessor, Frozen, is the most successful animated musical of all time. And its impact wasn’t just financial – fans called it the most important feminist film ever made. I’ll be speaking to the film critic Rhianna Dhillon and the journalist Bidisha.We hear about the woman at the centre of new BBC Sounds podcast, The Missing Cryptoqueen. Presenter and technology expert, Jamie Bartlett discusses missing One Coin founder, Dr Ruja, said to have duped investors out of money with Jen McAdam, who says she, friends and family lost money in OneCoin and who supports others like her round the world. They are joined by blockchain entrepreneur and cryptocurrency investor, Jessi Baker, talking about women and the wider world of cryptocurrencies and what you need to know to get involved.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Kari Gerstheimer Interviewed Guest: Bidisha Interviewed Guest: Rhianna Dhillon Interviewed Guest: Jamie Bartlett Interviewed Guest: Jen McAdam Interviewed Guest: Jessi Baker

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. If you've got young children, you will know, you're bound to know that Frozen 2 is out tomorrow. We're going to talk about that and we're going to talk about Frozen as well on the programme this morning. Did it have an impact on your family, particularly on the young girls and women in the family? Was it a film

that they really held close to their hearts? If so, why? You can email the programme or contact us on social media at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. And also today, all you need to know about the woman at the heart of the BBC Sounds hit podcast, The Missing Crypto Queen. We'll hear from a woman who has lost her life savings and we'll talk too to an expert on cryptocurrency who says money can be made here, but you do have to be very careful. Information is all when it comes to cryptocurrency and how to make money on it. So all that explained on Woman's Hour this morning. First though, vulnerable children and young people are living in mental health hospitals with poor care in some cases and in the worst

instances, abuse. The cross-party Joint Committee on Human Rights said earlier this month that these hospitals can lead to what it called terrible suffering and anguish to distraught families. Well, one mother in the West Midlands wanted to tell us about her daughter, who has autism and other mental health conditions, and went to hospital when she was 14. She is now 28, and she has never come home. In fact, she's now living in her sixth hospital, 80 miles away. We'll talk to Mencap after you've listened to this. Our reporter Siobhan Tai talked to the mother about her daughter's absence and how it's affected the whole family. My daughter was 14 when she first went into hospital. My daughter was having a crisis and she needed a lot of support because she was involving herself in self-injurious behaviour and it was presented to us that we had to agree for her to go into a hospital

and it's not what we wanted to do and we were distraught. And the self-injury, was it life-threatening? Was it dangerous? I... No. No. There can be an element of repetitious behaviours, but my daughter never wanted to seriously injure herself. It was a cry for help, because at the time, you know, she's surrounded by a family who love her. She had a nice circle of friends. And, you know, she's involved in her art and her drama.

Were any conditions diagnosed at that stage? At the time, we were told it was depression. The autism, which is absolutely crucial to an understanding of our daughter that wasn't diagnosed until a year later the speech and language therapist had a chat with us and what she said is that it used to be said autism is predominantly a male condition. But she said in her opinion, it's as prevalent in girls and women, it's just not diagnosed. And the reason is because with girls and young women, they're more likely to internalise that distress.

But you suspected that she had autism when she was a little baby didn't you? Well from when she was like a toddler I was always worried about it and I always felt that she needed more support and time and attention than my other children. I mean as a mother there was something innate in me that I felt my daughter needed more. When she was about two, we actually took her for a hearing test and she failed the test and she had to have the test repeated. And I said to the health visitor at the time, is there something here that we don't know?

Is she possibly on the autistic spectrum? Because the hearing test revealed that she could hear she just didn't want to respond no so it was the self-harming that was the trigger for her to go into hospital did you ever think though that when you said goodbye on the first day of her being in hospital that you would be where you are now 14 years later? Do you know what? No, because we spoke to the psychiatrist and she said that, look, there's no guarantee with this, but I predict, based on my professional opinion,

that within six months your daughter will be home and she will be in the community and I know that first night my husband took our daughter there he come back and he cried and it was almost if this is possible to do it's almost like he aged and we thought what can we do to keep our family together? What we can do is throw ourselves 110% behind supporting our daughter and the staff and working together. But obviously we had no idea of what was to come. Do you ever look back on that first day of her being in hospital? Do you know, now we're coming towards the end of this process of our daughter being released,

I think about it so much to the extent it keeps me awake at night. And this is common with a lot of parents in this position. They say to themselves, have I done something wrong? Could I have done something differently? And people can be wracked with guilt. So not only has it been 14 years, your daughter's been through six hospitals or treatment centres. Yeah, it was five hospitals and one residential placement,

but in total it's been 14 years. Spread across the country. Yeah, yeah. And I can't emphasise to people who listen how traumatic that is for families, you know. We were always clear that wherever our daughter was, we would follow her, you know. We would always go and see her.

But in terms of our family, yeah, it's been really difficult and I think me and my husband maybe we've suffered a lot as well you know some people listening to this would think how is it possible though that a family puts a vulnerable teenager into a hospital and then it's almost like you lose control of your daughter especially as she reaches 16 17 and then 18 definitely becomes an adult in the eyes of the law yeah i think the bureaucracy of how the system works mitigates against parents having a completely involved role. The hospital and the system is set up in such a way that they have the control and they have the power and especially if your loved one is in

another part of the country you can't always go there to see what's going on. Very often you ring up and you can't speak to people because they're not available. I suppose professionals in this arena would say they're acting in the best interest of their patient, who is now an adult. Yeah, yeah, they can say that, but I think sometimes the professionals also become blinkered themselves because they work in those environments, so they don't see our loved ones as they used to be. They don't see the potential of our loved ones because our loved ones are very much restricted in what they can do. You know, I could say how my daughter did her art and her painting and she had friends and she walked up mountains.

I don't think that the professionals, they're not bad people. They work really hard. But it's more than them. It's about how the system, yeah, how the system makes people who are very vulnerable, how it makes them much worse. What condition have you been told that your daughter has and how dangerous is she to herself at the moment?

Well, it varies from hospital to hospital and down to the view of the psychiatrist so when our daughter first went into hospital it was seen as being clinical depression in the next hospital it was psychosis. And the next hospital was borderline personality disorder. The next one, it was treatment-resistant schizophrenia. So what's her day-to-day life like at the moment? And how often do you go up to see her, and what kind of things would you do with her? Well, because our daughter's going to be discharged you hope we hope yeah well we are determined that she will be discharged yeah we see her probably about once a fortnight it's been

really hard for a lot of the time when we've gone visit her, we've had to sit with my other two daughters in a tiny visitor's room with support workers listening to your conversation. Why do they have to listen to your conversation? They said that because of our daughter's level of risk, then we couldn't be alone with her. That is to protect herself, they say. But I can't explain to people listening how hard it is, you know, not to have private time with your daughter, family time,

to do things that people probably take for granted. I mean, we just love her. It's unconditional, like we do with all our children, with all my girls. But the actual business, the day-to-day life of a family has been so hard, and it has definitely affected my other two children because we've had to go up and sit in those tiny rooms with support workers, but we're you know we're here we're still a family but you know what makes me really sad mostly for our daughter for the things that

she's missed and despite the difficulties that she had she wanted to do those things and she could have done those things and for me one of the most painful things is I didn't get to see her do those things. You know, like my youngest has just done the right level, so I was the one running up and down there with hot chocolate and taking her out for a drive in the car when she got stressed. And, you know, my husband was helping her with her, you know, her essays, and we've missed, you know, we've missed that, but primarily my daughter, I think she's lost 14 years of her life, but as I said to you, as a family,

I feel that we've lost many years of our life because this has always been in the forefront of our mind. You're not at rest. Somebody said to me, as a parent, but equally a dad, yeah, mum or a dad, you're only as happy as your least happy child. Well, my daughter's been so unhappy for so long that, you know, I haven't been able to, in get on with my life because in my mind it's all been about getting our daughter released and what would a Christmas we've got Christmas

coming up what would that involve for you and your family we haven't had a home for 10 years for Christmas and this year I don't think they will letter this Christmas, you know. Once you are sectioned, that is such a powerful piece of legislation and it's a very, very blunt instrument, but I've got lots of confidence and optimism and hope that maybe in the future my daughter might be able to make her voice heard and we need to listen. Well our thanks to that mother at being prepared to speak up for her daughter so we got a statement from her daughter's hospital. We work with those in our care their

families and other stakeholders such as NHS England to ensure that people in hospital move down the care pathway and back to the community as quickly as possible and from NHS commissioners our case managers have the patient's best interests at heart and will continue to seek an appropriate community placement for her whilst ensuring she gets the best possible care in the meantime. Carrie Gersheimer is here Director of Information and Advice at Mencap. First of all, Carrie, the statistics that have very recently been released about the number of people in long-term care with autism and learning disability. They just came out this morning.

That's right. So there are 2,220 adults in England in these inpatient units and over 200, actually 235 children. People under the age of 18. That's correct. So the story we've just heard there from that woman in the West Midlands, I was particularly struck by the different diagnoses. Is that something you've heard before? It's really distressing for parents and really difficult to understand. Essentially what tends to happen is that people with a learning disability and autism are in the community not having their needs met properly and to the point where their needs will escalate and often their behaviours will escalate.

And they may be a danger to themselves? They may be a danger to themselves but I would say that that doesn't mean that they can't be treated in the community and shouldn't be treated in the community. Typically what happens is that there's not a suitable placement in the community because there's been such a lack of investment in social care for so long and so people are sadly sectioned and they're put in inpatient units where because it's an unsuitable place for them their needs will escalate even further. Is it possible then that they will I don't know replicate behaviours they see around them? That's possible I think it's possible that if somebody with

autism or a learning disability is put in an unfamiliar setting which might be noisy which isn't designed to specifically meet their needs then typically what will happen is they get into a vicious cycle of needs escalating and over medication and lawful restraint. And it becomes really difficult then to remove the section and for people to be discharged. The average length of stay is so much longer than I thought it was. We are talking years here, aren't we? Over four years, I think? That's right. So the recommended length of stay is about 80 days and the average length of stay is actually five years, four months. Right. And this is a world which most people listening know absolutely nothing about. And your heart goes out to the parents and the carers who are trying to just get some sense out of the system actually in many cases how can they be helped

yeah i just firstly like to acknowledge that and i've been working in the sector for over 10 years and these are some of the most distressing scandalous cases that you know we we would describe it as a modern day asylum. They're so deeply shocking. How can parents be helped? Well, it is really difficult. I have a team of lawyers at Mencap that help families and even families who have had the most expert help and have had the involvement of the Secretary of State,

even those families, children are still in those units. But I would say that there is help out there. My team at Mencap can offer support to families. And I would urge families to get in touch if this radio show is resonating for them. Well, I can see on Twitter that people already have comments to make about what they've just heard. So I would urge anybody who was touched by the experience there, outlined by the lady in the West Midlands, to contact the programme. Tell us what it's been like for your family, particularly if your child is distressed and far from home. It's just not easy to get to visit them, is it, often, Carrie?

And that's something people really struggle with. That's right. And, you know, some families don't have the means to be able to travel hundreds of miles away to see their loved ones. Those journeys can be really expensive and people can be put in far away places where it's really difficult to understand what's happening with their treatment. Thank you. BBC.co.uk slash Women's Hour. Email the programme via the website. Thank you very much indeed for your input, Carrie. And of course, you can make a comment as well at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram.

Now, December the 4th, we're on for an hour and a half that day for the Women's Hour election debate. We've got politicians from the political parties. They'll take your calls. Looking forward to that. Starts at 10 o'clock the morning of December the 4th. Now, the missing crypto queen is something we're talking later in the programme all about that. If you haven't heard it so far, make sure you download that BBC Sounds podcast. But out tomorrow, and I suspect many a parent will be slightly wearied at the prospect, it's Frozen 2.

We'll discuss it in a moment. First of all, here's a clip. Here's Anna reminding her sister Elsa of everything she's done for her. The kingdom is not safe. Find who is calling to you. They may have answers. I'm going with you. Anna, no.

Excuse me, I climbed the North Mountain, survived a frozen heart, and saved you from my ex-boyfriend, so, you know, I'm coming. That's normal. Yes, there's a lot to get at. There will be no spoilers. With me this morning, the journalist Bidisha and the film critic for Six Music, it's Rhianna Dillon. Bidisha, now, it was a nailed on feminist classic, Frozen, wasn't it?

It was definitely a girl power classic. That's what I'd say. It's as far as you'll go. It's as far as I'll go. But I think that's actually great for the audience it was targeted at. The young girls in particular went mad for it. Why? Because it's about sisterhood. It's about a kind of matriarchal familial type of feminism, which means sticking up for your women friends and recognising who's the bad boyfriend

and going through adventures together. So now we see in Frozen 2 there are all these bits of dialogue where one sister is saying to the other, but I'm going to come with you, I'm your sister, but you're my sister, you can't do this to me. So they keep saying that and while looking into each other's eyes in a really concerted, loving, sisterly way. Have you got a sister, Bidisha?

I do not, I'm an only child, which is obviously the best kind. I look endlessly into my sister's eyes. She'll be listening now. Is it a good film, Rhianna? I know you've seen Frozen 2. Yes, I have. So I was a huge fan of Frozen, very excited about seeing Frozen 2. And the animation is absolutely stunning. They really have raised the bar with this,

especially with Elsa's sort of magic powers. However, if you can fathom out the plot of Frozen 2, you're a better woman than I am. To be honest, I never understood these films when I had to take my own kids. I really didn't. They always shove in the occasional adult joke, don't they, to keep you awake.

Oh, they definitely have those. And they have them in this one too. So there's this excellent one that we were talking about earlier. Repeatable? Oh, absolutely. It's not that much of an adult joke all right thank you you don't know how adult i am go on brian adams uh has is kind of very well known for his um what should we say is operatic music videos thank you yeah and uh so christoph has um one of those basically he has

a reindeer herds person yes he is yeah played by jonathan groff and uh brilliant singer but it's just so well done, where obviously little children are not going to understand the reference at all. But, you know, we have like Jonathan Groff's sort of character fading over reindeers. Who are his backing singers. And there's a point at which you realise that the characters in Frozen 2 know that they're in a musical.

100%. What do you mean by that? Well, everything goes quiet. and then before the big number, each of the characters, even though they're cartoons, their face begins to contort and they sort of move. Move into position. Exactly, what you're doing with your shoulders. They move into centre stage and they start sort of doing the Streisand hands,

the full Broadway show thing. It's weird that there's no applause at the end of each number because they're almost waiting for it. There's a pause for applause. To be fair, you see it with snarky, snooty film critics don't you? There's never any applause in those screenings. There will be

down the old view I imagine. I hope so because it is a really fun watch I think and like you were saying it does still pick up on those ideas of sisterly love. There's this whole theme running through where people are really afraid of Elsa's magic they think it's too much and for me I was it was kind of reflective of people telling women to be repressed or suppress their voice and to just see Elsa's magic really come through with such power was beautiful to watch actually I know a lot of people saw an LGBTQ aspect to Frozen. Can you just remind us what

that was, Bidisha, or how it was perceived to be? Absolutely. And I do think there's something to that. So Elsa always felt that she was different from other people, that she had to hide who she was, that she should be ashamed of who she really was, that she was literally in her room slash in the closet. I actually think there's a lot of weight to that interpretation. And what's really positive for me about this second film is that she doesn't want to and shouldn't have to bend herself out of shape to conform to the mainstream world. What makes her different is also a source of delight for her. It's a source of power.

She feels much more natural when she's in the natural world, mixing with all different kinds of people. So the courtly world of the castle and being in the natural world mixing with all different kinds of people so the courtly world of the castle and being in the royal family is nothing compared to those situations where she can choose who her friends and family are she can be who she really is and that's when she feels most like herself yeah i mean i have to say will any of that be picked up by the average six-year-old on saturday afternoon you know what for any six-year-old that feels different or wants an adventure, they will respond to that.

They'll say, hang on, you know, I can be the hero in my own story and I do think they're setting up Elsa to be a superhero and maybe the next film will just be a superhero film called Elsa. Well, arguably it should be. I would love that. It's quite interesting to see, I suppose we were left with that happily ever after ending of Frozen and then to see that actually Elsa was still quite

unhappy after the happily ever after was really refreshing to see that. Well she had to find a feather actually. But she doesn't need one! Which is so brilliant. I mean I was really hoping there was a moment in this where I thought she was finding a girlfriend and it was a flicker of a spark but perhaps not enough. I think Elsa's true

life partner is the world. So all the way through Frozen, you hear this sort of call to adventure. And you realise that even though the castle is very large and luxurious, she really wants to break beyond those walls. And actually, even if she gets a love story in some sort of later film, I think she'll always choose independence and power and exploration. It is still a Disney product, Rihanna, isn't it? And I'm speaking on behalf of those parents

who will feel forced into taking their kids over this weekend and the coming weeks as we head towards Christmas. And that's before you get onto the merch. So how are we really feeling about this? I mean, it's true. I think they even sort of poke a bit of fun at themselves in it. There's a couple of scenes where Olaf skips past wearing...

Olaf is? ...is the little snowman that has been brought to life. Snowperson? Yes. There you go, Jane. Brought to life by Elsa's magic. And he skips past them wearing a little Elsa dress that we see... Oh, you see that so...

...that we've seen so often in little girls at Halloween or, you know, any dressing up box around the country at the moment. Just because they're now prepared to laugh at themselves doesn't make it right. You know, they're still making tons of money out of people. And in many ways, it's quite traditional. So both of these girls are traditionally not just pretty, but beautiful. And now that they're a little bit older older you see that Elsa has this great adventure and she's she's like the Cate Blanchett if Cate Blanchett mated with a Barbie doll this and in

fairyland this is what you would get she has all of these gorgeous outfit changes which are like a sort of ice dancer on speed and you just know that every single one of those outfits is going to be rendered in a kind of sequined nylon in time for Christmas. It is, I'm told by you, Rhianna, over an hour and three quarters? Yes, an hour and 43 minutes, if you want to get exact. Sorry, I have some experience in this area. Too long. There is a scene after the credits

if you can be bothered to wait around for that. I mean, you know, fans of Marvel are very used to waiting for about 15 minutes to see those. I'm not sure it's 100% worth it. But I think that, again, we were talking and I think that's where that idea of the merch comes from. There are all these, it's a little nod to

Frozen Fever, which is a short Christmas film. This franchise is just getting bigger and bigger with all the shorts that are now available on Sky Cinema or on Disney Plus and they are going to make sure this world keeps expanding just to keep the money rolling in Heaven forfend that money would stop rolling into Disney's coffers

Thank you both very much, really enjoyed that Rihanna, Dylan and Vidisha, thank you and in an ideal world, Frozen will be back and it will be a superhero or heroine film in which a heteronormative ending will simply not be possible. It just won't happen. You never know. It could be around the corner. Now, The Missing Crypto Queen. I've mentioned it so often. I think people have really succumbed to the notion that I really do quite rate this. It's a BBC Sounds podcast. It's about a missing woman,

Bulgarian born, Oxford educated, Dr. Ruja Ignatova. She's the founder of OneCoin. It's a cryptocurrency. Now, she was allegedly last seen in 2017. Last week, her brother pleaded guilty in a U.S. court to charges of money laundering and fraud. It is thought that thousands of people all over the world have been duped by this, including, yes, investors in this country, and perhaps more importantly, some very vulnerable people indeed in Uganda. The tech expert Jamie Bartlett presents the

missing crypto queen. Jen McAdam says that she, friends and family lost money in one coin, and she now runs a support group for people who've been affected. Jesse Baker is a blockchain entrepreneur and a cryptocurrency investor. If you're confused, that confusion will be cleared over the next 15 minutes or so. Here is Jamie, first of all, to explain all. Dr. Ruja Ignaceva is this woman who created a cryptocurrency that's sort of a bit like Bitcoin. And in 2014, she kind of comes out of nowhere. She's German-Bulgarian in her mid-30s and says, I've created the next Bitcoin, this amazing new digital money. If you've missed out on the Bitcoin

boom, don't worry, because my one, which is called OneCoin, is the next big thing. So if you invest in it now, you can become very, very rich. It's going to grow and grow and grow in value. It's the most amazing opportunity you've ever heard of in your life. And this idea of hers started spreading very, very quickly. And by early 2017, over 4 billion euros had been invested into this new cryptocurrency, OneCoin. And then in October 2017, she disappears and has not been seen since. Right. There are so many questions. First of all, if something sounds too good to be true, surely it is.

Why did so many people fall for this? The podcast is exploring that question. Why did so many people fall for what we consider to be one of the biggest financial scams in history? But one of the reasons I think a lot of people did fall for it is because it sounded and looked a lot like Bitcoin. And lots of people did make a lot of money investing, sort of gambling, really, on Bitcoin. And Dr. Ruja Ignatova is a very believable character. She has a degree from Oxford University.

And she really does. And she really does. We'll check that out. You know, she spoke at The Economist, the well-known magazine, did a big conference about the future of finance and payments. And she spoke there in front of a huge audience, very impressive individual, this woman, and very, very intelligent. She looks the part. And, you know, the technology is confusing. It's complicated. People don't understand cryptocurrency. So when you don't really understand how it all works, you kind of ignore the details and look at this founder, see how wealthy and successful she is and think, I miss Bitcoin. And that's a very powerful draw, the idea that you found the next thing.

Jen, how did you get involved and why? What happened was it was my best friend who approached me with it. She had been approached by someone. She knew that I was looking to invest money that my father had left me after he passed. The first time she told me it went over my head. The second time there was more urgency. She said, they said it's going up in value. I suggest you speak to this chap. He transferred me onto a webinar, which they were being held daily in the evening. Numerous webinars with at least 100 people on each time.

What sort of person are you? What do you do for a living? Well, previously my background was I had my own business for years in IT, but in 2010 I got struck down with ME and fibromyalgia and I was bed bound for the best part of five years so all my savings that I'd saved through working independently on my own had gone this is where I first heard of bitcoin only through talk you wouldn't have thought of yourself as particularly vulnerable or someone who could easily be duped and no one else would have called you a mug either? No, no. I would say I'm a strong, independent woman and have been, you know, since I can remember. And so I never thought for one second I would fall for a scam. For me, I wanted to invest. When I did invest, I was so excited. You know, I really thought I had made the best investment opportunity here.

So I was speaking to friends. I was excited. I was planning. The majority of people that invested in OneCoin, they just wanted financially to have a better life. They thought this was it. What we need to emphasise is that Bitcoin, the cryptocurrency the original cryptocurrency Jamie

it is the original Bitcoin people have made money out of that people have made incredible amounts of money Bitcoin is a very very clever idea and it's still going it's still going and it's still growing it's a sort of form of digital money that you can send around very easily

a global currency it's like a sort of digital cash and it's very safe. And for the people that got in early and bought Bitcoin in 2011 or 2012, when it cost maybe a dollar or two dollars for a Bitcoin, they saw the price of that go up to hundreds and then thousands and even tens of thousands of pounds per Bitcoin. They made a fortune. And I think it was that story that would appeal to you,

that this did happen. People did make money on this. So when someone else turns up and says, here's the next one, it doesn't sound ludicrous because it's happened before. When you're first approached and you're on this webinar, they say to you, now you have the chance, you're in the early adoptive stage,

you missed out in Bitcoin, but listen, we're going to be the number one cryptocurrency, and now's your chance. You'd not been very well, you had this sum of money, a nice sum of money from your late dad, who wanted you to use it constructively. How much did you invest? I invested 10,000 euros, personally. And that's all gone? That's gone. I invested €10,000 personally. And that's all gone? That's gone. I'll never come, no, never to be seen again. And it wasn't, of course, just you, was it,

because friends and family were involved as well? I'd bought my family the smaller packages, but it was friends, and it was collectively €250,000 we purchased in one-coin packages. So that's a quarter of a million euros gone. What has it done to your family relationships and to friendships? What are you aware of happening perhaps to other victims of this? It's dripping the hearts from families

because this was shared mostly amongst friends and family. So if it's your brother or your sister that brought this to you and you've lost so many thousands, there's a lot of resentment. And also the other side of it, the person that brought it to their family members, the guilt, the regret, it lies heavy on the shoulders. Every day, I don't know if I'll ever forgive myself. And I know other people are feeling like that through the victim support groups,

the stories that we hear. I'm not the only person. There's thousands we have in the groups feeling like this. Have you any hope of getting your money back, Jen? It's gone, Jane. It's gone. It's a complete scam. You know, the FBI, Charles Ruzsa, it's a scam. There's no way that money's coming back ever. It's really tough to go through that sort of experience,

particularly with the link to your late dad as well. Jamie, it's heartbreaking. And as you pursue Dr. Ruzsa throughout the podcast series, you encounter far too many people like Jen who've had such a tough time. But I couldn't believe in the final episode you were in Africa. The scams tentacles had spread that far. Yeah, yeah. We had a small village on the border between Uganda and Rwanda where Dr. Ruzsa and one coin, it's like household names. Everyone knows about it. And I couldn't believe it.

You'd also get a small commission for recruiting people in. So you're incentivised to bring more new people in. It's pyramid selling. I mean, in some ways, the easiest way to describe this is a very old scam, a pyramid scheme, but with a fake cryptocurrency as your product. And because it seemed to be a cryptocurrency that they kept saying was going up and up in value, you know, Jen would log into her account and see that the value had gone up since last month and she'd made money but of course it was all just numbers that were invented but because it was such an amazing product to sell through a pyramid scheme where you'd recruit your friends and family i mean it just spread like wildfire

so within a couple of years we're talking about 175 countries over four billion euros all the way out to these tiny villages in af Africa where people had been told they were going to change their lives. The same messages that Jen was getting were being told in small villages all over Africa. What do you think of that Jen? I think it's absolutely heartbreaking since April 2017 opened up the victim support group we cover every continent. So we're hearing stories in India, Pakistan, Africa, and they targeted the poorest of countries with the poorest of people. Horrendous stories I hear every day. It is heartbreaking.

You know, they sold their lands, they sold their homes. They have nothing. Oh, it's so sad. their lands, they sold their homes they have nothing Do you think that the fact that Dr Ruzsa is female and a compelling presence do you think that generated more interest and actually

made people feel they could invest? Yeah, I think because as a female, even I looked at her as a business woman, I thought oh wow but also there's the other side where you see a female, even I looked at her as a businesswoman. I thought, oh, wow, that's true. But also there's the other side where you see a female as a nurturer, as a mother, as a carer. So I think people looked at her like that,

and just thought she was an amazing woman who was very successful. I think when she turned up in 2014, 2015, she really stood out as being this amazing female leader in a pretty male-dominated space at the time. Yeah, I personally looked upon her as, wow, fantastic, a female, a businesswoman leading the way. And, you know, this technology, this cryptocurrency, this is amazing. And unfortunately, well.

Jessie, OneCoin isn't a real cryptocurrency, is it? No, OneCoin is, I believe, a scam from the evidence we can see today. But there are several real functioning cryptocurrencies out there. I know Bitcoin, what are the others? Yeah, so I was quite involved early on with the creation of Ethereum, which has a cryptocurrency called Ether, which is a big one. But yeah, there's hundreds of them, some of which are more trustworthy than others. How on earth does the novice investor work their way around this?

I wouldn't have a clue. Yeah, I think it's really important to be incredibly careful. I think the OneCoin case is quite unique in that it wasn't operating on a real blockchain. Now, I need to stop you there. A real blockchain would allow what? So all cryptocurrencies are digital currencies that operate on a blockchain. And a blockchain is simply a public system of record. It's an unalterable ledger. Yes, an unalterable ledger. Yes, I think we've got some potential evidence that OneCoin was not unalterable, potentially very alterable. But yeah, a real blockchain would be unalterable ledger. Yes, I think we've got some potential evidence that one coin was not unalterable, potentially very alterable. But yeah, a real blockchain would be unalterable

and contain a full audit history that you can expect. But as a relatively novice investor like Jen or like I would be in this situation, you've got a couple of grand you want to invest. How would you know whether there was a blockchain involved? Yeah, so I think this is quite difficult. I mean, there are some established cryptocurrencies that have a reputation that come with them. I think caution is number one. Don't just trust your mates and what they say. I think what's great about blockchain technology is a lot of it is being developed open source. So the code base and the contributors are all available to see publicly through a system called GitHub. I actually think that's probably one of the easiest ways to

check if a cryptocurrency is vaguely legitimate, is whether it has reputable actors contributing to the code base via GitHub. If they're not, I would certainly be asking some questions. But are these questions likely to be asked by the people most vulnerable and most likely to be targeted, perhaps, in these family and friends-related pyramid selling schemes?

Yeah, unfortunately not. It's tricky. I think there's two questions at play here, right? One is about cryptocurrency and its trustworthiness and another is about multi-level marketing and falling for the potential of being rich through anything, whether it's vitamin pills or a fake cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrencies is just such a new domain and still widely unregulated. But yeah, I really think it's important to separate completely from the marketing methods that we saw with OneCoin. Because you don't really have this marketing technique with other cryptocurrencies. Most of the time, you can just go to an exchange site, pay with some pounds and dollars or whatever

and get your cryptocurrency. Very simple. There's not commissions and packages and recruiting friends and family. I'm not sure exactly who has invested in OneCoin broken down by gender, but I know that, for example, the pyramid selling systems or the multi-level marketing, which is perfectly legal as a form of selling,

the kind of selling to friends and family, I think it does tend to be more women that do that than men because it's marketed as a way to make some extra money, especially for mothers who are trying to you know find extra sources of income. Jesse if you are looking to invest what are the things you need to worry about? I have to say I'm really cautious about

this kind of thing and I really think more than thrice about it before I do anything. What are the things to watch for? It is important to be cautious but also I think it's important to recognise that cryptocurrency is a pretty exciting new frontier also I think it's important to recognise that cryptocurrency is a pretty exciting new frontier. And I think it's important we don't put people off from investigating, exploring that. Because there is money to be made, actually. There certainly is money to be made. There's been a lot of millionaires made through many of the cryptocurrencies that have grown over the past few years. There's also been a lot of money lost, even by maybe more legitimate methods, through genuine blockchains and genuine coins that just actually had no hope of traction. I would imagine there aren't that many women in this particular world.

Yeah, it's funny. The blockchain crypto space is quite male-dominated on the whole, but there are some really fantastic examples of good female leadership in the space and some really important projects that are cataly in the space and some really important projects that are catalyzing the development of cryptocurrencies that are being led by women. Can you name some of the other women who are making waves in this world right now? Yeah, absolutely. So there's a fantastic initiative called Lightning Labs, which is really helping scale the Bitcoin blockchain, which is being run by Elizabeth Stark, who is a phenomenal leader in the crypto space. Also, I think it's the largest

exchange in Africa for cryptocurrencies is also run by a woman, another Elizabeth, Elizabeth Rosalio, called BitPesa. So they're just two examples of quite different parts of the industry who are really leading the way. But yeah, there is some great female leadership there, but it's certainly quite a male dominated space as with a lot of deep tech. I hope you were intrigued and informed by that. That was Jessie Baker, who's a blockchain entrepreneur. You also heard from Jen McAdam and from Jamie Bartlett. And OneCoin rejects allegations it's a scam

and says that OneCoin verifiably fulfills all criteria of the definition of a cryptocurrency. The company claims that the allegations made about them around the world are being challenged. They say, Our partners, our customers and our lawyers are fighting successfully against this action around the globe and we are sure that the vision of a new system on the basis of a financial revolution will be established.

And your emails and tweets about the programme today. Miss Morgan says, I listened to all the Missing Crypto Queen podcasts and it was gripping. I hope everybody will continue until they have found her. It's like a drama on the television left up in the air. You cannot leave it like this. Please find her, says Miss Morgan.

Well, I know they're doing their best. I happen to know Georgia, who is the producer and co-presenter of the Missing Crypto Queen podcast. She's taking a well-deserved holiday at the moment, is Georgia, but she'll be back on the trail. And I know they most certainly haven't given up. But if you haven't got into that podcast yet, I can't really say any more other than to urge you to investigate the Missing Crypto Queen on BBC Sounds. Now, much more seriously, and that is quite serious, lots of people wanted to comment on our first interview today

with the mother whose daughter has been in long-term care. This is a young woman who has autism and learning disabilities. Catherine says, a powerful interview this, mental health must become the top priority for the sake of our children and families and society as a whole. I broke at, you can only be as happy as your most unhappy child. Anybody who has a child with mental health conditions will know how your heart breaks to feel so helpless. Kate says it's an incredibly devastating story this I've had to pull over

and have a bit of a cry as it opens old wounds for me. My daughter was an inpatient at a psychiatric hospital at the age of 12 and she went on to have two more admissions over the next two years. It was so traumatic for us all. I'm not surprised Kate, I hope things are a little better now. Ellen says it's terribly sad but it isn't surprising. Once you lose your loved one to the maws of the mental health system it can be impossible to get them out alive what is needed is more care and compassion with pharmaceutical intervention as a last resort rather than a first port of call now this is a long email and i won't mention the listener's name i would like to talk to you about my experience with my daughter and how we could have gone down

that route but because of our fortunate understanding of the system and our own skills and experience, and finally getting an ASD diagnosis, our experience has been radically different. It is heartbreaking and terrifying to hear how that young woman has been treated, and I can imagine only too well how her family has been treated after the things CAMHSs said about me we

tried for 10 years to get support for our daughter and because she is adopted we were advised that all her problems were attachment disorders all the treatments made her worse and the reason they made her worse was because she is actually on the autistic spectrum and now that we know that and we parent her accordingly to be fair we had already adjusted our parenting to her needs as much as we could without knowing why. And this was deeply problematized by the mental health experts, so-called. She is so much better, says that listener. Well, I'm glad to hear that. This is from another listener.

My word, what an amazing mother. She sounded so calm and accepting. To have suffered 14 years of this is unbelievable my niece spent two lots of four months in a psychiatric hospital and the different diagnoses were something that rang true for our family each new psychiatrist had a different theory and it felt like an escalation of the previous one but it's the memory of those monitored visits to our loved one that will stay with all of us forever. Just hateful.

I always felt that the atmosphere within the ward made for frayed tempers and behaviour that seemed unacceptable to allow us private time with her. We are now out on the other side and hope this mother will get her daughter home soon. Thank you, Woman's Hour, for never shying away from these stories.

Well, I very much hope that we can help and we should, if we possibly can, return to this subject. I know to be fair, some of the newspapers, notably the Mail on Sunday, has devoted a great deal of time to this. So, it's ongoing and it isn't just the BBC

that's focusing on these stories. Frozen, which is a slightly cozier topic. Andrea says, I took my girls aged 11 and 12 to see Frozen seven years ago. They were captivated by the film from the get-go, deciding who's Anna and who is Elsa, a conversation they've continued to have since then.

And last year, while I was taking part in an Arctic race and other winter events, the song line, the cold never bothered me anyway, has become my mantra. Margaret, the song line, the cold never bothered me anyway, has become my mantra. Margaret, unimpressed. Why, in what I consider to be these ghastly films, do the heroines have enormous eyes, perfect skin and hair and 18-inch waists and weigh seven stone?

It's a frightful image to aspire to, in my opinion. Margaret, I don't know whether they're... Have they got 18 inch waist i've been obviously they aren't real they're not big glasses by any stretch of the imagination and what it what is certainly true is that this film the frozen films do not end with a hapless princess being rescued by a prince it just that is not happening anymore it's almost like we've lost faith uh in handsome princes Why on earth that would be, I simply don't know. We'll end on that topical note. And Woman's Hour will be back tomorrow,

the programme and the podcast. Andrea Catherwood's here then. the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.