Woman's Hour - Carol Ann Duffy, Women and US riots, Tree Activist Maria Gallastegui and Scottish Judicial Review on Definition of Woman

Episode Date: January 7, 2021

The poet Carol Ann Duffy - who served as the first woman poet laureate between 2009-2019 and has won numerous awards for her poetry including the Whitbread, Forward and T. S. Eliot Prizes - joins Emma with a poem which feels particularly apt in the current circumstances, as we enter another lockdown and people are separated from their families and friends – it is called Long Table. Carol Ann talks to Emma about what she has been doing in lockdown and the importance of writing in recording our experiences over the past year. The world looked on in horror yesterday in what has been described as an act of domestic terrorism as thousands of President Trump supporters ransacked Congress and stormed the Capitol building in Washington. Their aim? To bring a violent halt to the formal confirmation of his election defeat. Before they headed to the building, Trump roused his followers to fight for him - and his lawyer - the former mayor of New York Rudy Guliani said: "Let's have trial by combat." To look at the photos, you would think it was a march dominated and led by gun toting, animal skin-wearing men. It was men who sat in chair of the US speaker of the House - Nancy Pelosi and in the Senate chamber - two of the defining images of the riot. But women were there and are there as part of the mass online movement which led to this action: Stop the Steal. What role do they and are they playing in these groups? Emma speaks to Helen Lewis, staff writer at the Atlantic and author of the book Difficult Women and Melissa Milewski, lecturer in American politics at University of Sussex. A tree has been pulled down in Hackney. So what? Trees get pulled down all the time. But it wasn’t just any old tree: it was 150 years old, and was called The Happy Man, named after a pub that used to be nearby. Campaigners have been trying to save it for months and despite the bitter cold they've been in the branches, even sleeping in them. One of them is Maria Gallastegui and she joins Emma to talk about her experience. A key legal hearing starts in Scotland today with a campaign group challenging the Scottish Government over the meaning of the word “woman”. For Women Scotland has been granted a judicial review into the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act 2018 (GRPBA) which was passed as part of efforts to drive up the number of women in senior positions on public bodies. Its wording covers trans women who have changed their legal sex from male to female using a gender recognition certificate, as well as others who are “living as a woman” and are “proposing to undergo” such a change “for the purpose of becoming female”. Emma Barnett talks to Susan Smith from For Women Scotland and to Jennifer Ang from Just Rights Scotland about the review.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here with today's episode of the Woman's Hour podcast. Enjoy. Good morning. On today's programme, we're going to be joined by the former Poet Laureate, Carol Ann Duffy, who served as the first woman Poet Laureate of Great Britain. She's going to be prescribing some poetry to us all to cope with these very discombobulating times. And I think we could all do with it. Words to soothe us. And I want to ask you today, what words soothe you?

What do you always go back to? What do you read to feel a little better? Or perhaps, if I may, you might like to write some poetry for us today to describe how you're feeling. Perhaps keep it on the shorter side so I can read a few of them out. How you can do that is texting Woman's Hour

on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or of course email us through our website. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with and perhaps Caroline Duffy will have a take as well. In a moment, we're going to talk about

when protest turns ugly, but later in a moment, we're going to talk about when protest turns ugly, but later in the programme, we'll speak to a woman who's been living in a tree trying to save it from the chop. She actually failed in that endeavour. She's a full-time activist and will tell us why and what she was trying to achieve and perhaps what her next campaign will be, so don't miss that. But coming to the scenes from America.

One woman was killed at the scene by police. Three others are dead from medical emergencies. The world looked on in horror yesterday in what has been described as an act of domestic terrorism as thousands of President Trump supporters ransacked Congress and stormed the Capitol building in Washington. Their aim? To bring a violent halt to the formal confirmation of his election defeat.

Before they headed to the building, Trump roused his followers to fight for him, and his lawyer, the former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani, said, let's have trial by combat. To look at the photos, you'd think this was a march dominated and led by gun-toting, animal-skin-wearing men. It was men who sat in the chair of the US Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, and in the Senate chamber. Those were two of the defining images of what became a riot. But women were there and are there as part of

the mass online movement which led to this action, which is called Stop the Steal. What role do they and are they playing in these groups? To help us try and tease this out, we're joined by Helen Lewis, staff writer at The Atlantic and author of the book Difficult Women, and Melissa Malufsky, lecturer in American politics at the University of Sussex. And Melissa, I wonder if I could start with you, because as an American woman hailing from Georgia, living here in the UK, how did you feel when you saw these images and the footage? Honestly, I woke up this morning and I was completely shocked at the images. And I think that you can read about what's going on, but to actually see images of kind of the floor of the Senate chamber where the senators were meeting to kind of talk about

the election, to see protesters in there, to see debris all over the floors of Congress, to see offices with papers scattered. It was really a very kind of mind-boggling and very disheartening picture of American democracy today. And domestic terrorism, as one person has put it. I mean, would you go that far? Absolutely. Yes, I would. I think that that's very accurate. I think there were weapons involved. People were killed.

I think that's a good description of it. We'll come back to you in a moment. Helen, let me bring you in on this. Good morning. Morning. I was describing those images and there are women clearly in the scene, but not perhaps at the forefront of it. What would you say, first of all, to that,

that some people may, especially when they hear that language by Rudy Giuliani saying, let's have trial by combat, think in some way, this is the further weaponising of masculinity by Donald Trump? Well, your description there about women being present but not in charge of it is also a pretty good description of most far-right white nationalist movements. And if you look at the

pictures, what's really interesting about them is that what has happened in America is that an existing militia culture, you know, there were people that there was someone there in a Camp Auschwitz jumper, for example, you know, people there with white nationalist symbols, but accompanied by a much newer conspiracy theory grafted onto that, which is QAnon. And the woman who died, for example, had posted QAnon slogans on her Twitter feed, where we go one, we go all, the coming storm. And these will be things that hopefully will make no sense to you. Well, I don't say hopefully, but to a lot of listeners will make no sense, because this is an extremely online movement. it's basically a huge multiplayer role-playing game where you get pronouncements from this mysterious figure called Q that everybody has to try and interpret but

they've coalesced around the idea that the election was stolen and and this is what's really worrying um that they've been indulged by you know mainstream figures Donald Trump himself has has dallied with this conspiracy theory. And the point of the view of why women are so involved in it is, you know, we traditionally, the far right has been very sexist, very anti-feminist. That's a gateway to it, saying, you know, we're going to restore traditional ideals of masculinity. Men can be really violent. You can be a patriarch again. You can have your honor back. But what's happened with QAnon is there's a big strand of it running through, which is ostensibly in opposition to child abuse the idea that there is huge amounts of pedophile

child trafficking going on across america endorsed by the democratic party now to you and me this sounds nuts but there are people to whom this is absolutely the biggest issue that is happening in america they are in their minds stopping children from being abused and that is a message that is very powerful with the kind of suburban mothers who would not want to attend a white nationalist rally. So that's perhaps how this has changed in that way. Thank you for explaining QAnon. As you say, most people will not have got to grips with it and perhaps how women have been drawn into it. Melissa, when you hear that and you think about the role of women in getting Trump to the White House and also perhaps the role they're playing, as Helen describes, what do you say to that as an American woman? I think that there's a as a historian, I think that there's a long history of white women being involved in upholding white supremacy. And I think that you really see it in the 19th century, you see it during

the aftermath of the civil rights movement, you see it during the war on drugs. And so I think really, in many ways, white women in particular have been very involved in this project of white supremacy all along. Helen, do you see where you were talking there about men leading and dominating this? Do you see women as, I don you know, dip into it on a Facebook group. They don't realise that they're part of something that is grafted onto a sort of fundamentally anti-democratic racist project. But there have always been women in the far right movement who have, you know, played that classic kind of anti-feminist role saying, I think women are happier at home. I think women, you know, kinder Kircher Kusher, right, this idea that children, the home, you know, those are women's roles in life. And if you're a woman who is prepared to say that is women's highest calling in life, then guess what, you can get a lot of fame and attention

as a white woman by saying those things in the far right movement. And some women have gleefully seized those opportunities. And the role of the politicians as well, Helen, you know, looking at what some of the senators, for instance, the outgoing Senator Kelly Loeffler, tell us about her role in last night. I mean, she's been going for it in terms of inciting, you could say, the crowds. Well, I think what's happened is that some members and not all members of the Republican Party have ridden the tiger and have now realised that the tiger is running around biting people. And as you say, the former senator from Georgia, actually dismissed from office yesterday by the electors in Georgia,

who elected their first African-American senator, have now realised that it's not a good look to be supporting someone who is now, let's be honest, we're talking about someone who endorsed an armed militia raiding democratic institutions. That is essentially fascism at this point. So there are some people who are still clinging on to the Trump bandwagon. Ted Cruz, one of his former primary opponents, was still voting yesterday to say the election results shouldn't be certified. But there are other people in the party who are recent converts to embarrassment.

And there are other people in the party like Mitt Romney, who's the only Republican senator to vote to impeach Donald Trump, who have essentially broken with the structures of their party to say, this guy is really dangerous and we have to take it seriously. He's not a conventional politician at this point. He's a demagogue and a would-be authoritarian. We're only saved from his authoritarianism by his fundamental laziness and lack of coordination. Difficult Women is the title of your book, Helen. Some of these people will see themselves as difficult women. What do you make of the idea that women being thugs, as it were, is another part of equality? Women being just as, in inverted commas, bad as men? Yes, it's not a glass ceiling that I'm particularly keen for women to break,

it has to be said. But I think it's really, what you say is really important that you have to try and understand that people that you see as villains are cast themselves as the heroes in their own story and to the the mums who support QAnon you know they are the only thing standing against children being kidnapped and raped you know that is a very powerful story to tell yourself and if you don't understand the motivations of people that's not to excuse them but you have to understand that these people think that they are crusading for justice it's just that they are it in the service of a lie that they have come to believe. Melissa, the women around Donald Trump, then we know that there were some resignations yesterday, not least press secretary, also the assistant to the first lady giving in her notice, people who have been, of course, very loyal to the president.

Ivanka, his daughter, who's played several roles during this presidency, also retracted her tweet, one of the tweets around these individuals being patriots. What do you make of their role, Melissa? Well, I think the case of Ivanka Trump is particularly interesting. As you said, she wrote a tweet yesterday that called the protesters patriots. She was saying, telling them to kind of stop the violence, but still kind of called them patriots and got a lot of criticism for doing that, and then afterwards deleted the tweet. And I think she is very, has been very kind of complicit in Trump's project all along. In some ways,

she has been serving kind of as a go-between between Trump and women in America, particularly conservative women. And so I think she has been someone that many kind of women, conservative women, particularly white women, have looked up to. And I think she is very complicit in what has happened. And I would also note that the outgoing Senator Kelly Loeffler, who we've just been talking about, really kind of rode to fame, got a great deal of political momentum from Trumpism and from calling the African-American candidate for senator radical again and again. And so she was very much part of this project also of saying that the election had been stolen again and again.

So I think this was not just a project of men. Many, many white conservative women were involved as well. Helen, how do we see this playing out? Donald Trump has been silenced in some ways, taken off Twitter for a few hours. He'll be back. There are, of course, other social media networks available, and many of which have been made use of by these people on this Stop the Steal movement. But ultimately, do you think there is an endgame here in terms of making these individuals out there see that Joe Biden is the president. I don't think there is. I mean, I think people are far down a conspiracy rabbit hole. And if you watch the footage yesterday, it's very hard to get back when you are in such a totalising worldview. The question is, to what extent the Republican Party is willing to police its own flanks.

You know, there's been discussion overnight about the 25th Amendment that's removing the president. Very unlikely, I would say that would go anywhere. There's been discussion about impeachment, which is something that the Democrats could do. Again, with so few days left in office, there may be just, I think what's happened so far is that people have been desperately hoping, well, we'll just cling on and he'll be out in a couple of weeks. You know, that's all we need to get through. But the problem with conspiracy theories like this is that they don't go away on their own what is donald trump's post presidency game plan even if they bundle him out of the white house it's to sit in mar-a-lago presumably one of his properties and continue to tweet malignantly until he gets kicked off the

service you know to make himself out to be a martyr i don't know about you but i don't see any version of reality where he turns around one day and goes, you know what, I did actually lose. I probably should, you know, go and just golf and never be heard from again. It's simply not possible. So the question is how far his party, you know, his party, which let's be honest, he sort of had a hostile takeover of four years ago, can eject him and move on. And that is a really worrying question to me because I'm not sure it can. Well, two weeks left of the Trump presidency. We will see what happens. Unprecedented scenes last night.

Helen Lewis, thank you very much for joining us to reflect on them. And Melissa Maluski, lecturer in American politics at the University of Sussex and Helen White's for The Atlantic, giving us some perspective there.

You have not disappointed. I've asked if you wanted to share any poetry with us, either that's getting you through at the moment before I speak to my next guest, or what you've written yourself. One here that's just come in that's lovely, a poem written during lockdown. Early morning I hold my phone and drink my tea.

The phone connects the heart in me. It links me with a myriad of souls whose hearts I love who make me whole. A small pulsating part of me dependent on a bashery. And one from Rebecca in Hampshire, if I may. I rise late, I rise slow, I look at my children, I let them know. These are my two most prized greats I would choose every time to spend these days. Thank you, Rebecca, for that.

Keep them coming in. And also, you're coming to me with what words have soothed as well and got you through that you perhaps haven't written. Although many of you are very talented here, worryingly so. This too will pass. That phrase always gets me through and has done when I was getting through breast cancer. And also you have to remember, however dark it gets, Emma, the sun will always rise. That's been quoted as being from Grey's Anatomy. And it's stayed with me, says that text who's not given their name. You can get in touch with your poetry and your soothing words on 84844.

The reason we're having this conversation is because the poet Carol Ann Duffy is on the line with me now. She, of course, served as the first woman poet laureate between 2009 and 2019. She's won many awards for her poetry, including the Whitbread, Forward and T.S. Eliot Prize. She's won many awards for her poetry, including the Whitbread, Forward and T.S. Eliot Prize. She's sharing a poem which feels particularly apt in the current

circumstances as we enter another lockdown and face further restrictions across the country. And while people continue to be separated from their families and friends, the poem is called Long Table. It is a long table where the folks sit, supping their ale or sipping wine, friends of mine. They gather in shadow, candlelight, heads haloed as though painted in oils, singled all.

Their voices lift and fall, a blur of merriment, a blur of soft prayer, beloved there. My green man, grey-haired now, yet mirthful in sorrow, as winter sun eases ice from trees. Our lady of good cheer garlanded the flowers and leaves of the old year in her hair. And the lasses and lads whose faces flare brightest at the feast in uplift for youth's gift. Our dead waver outside tethered by memory. Their own darkness is light seen too late. If they could live again, they would listen even to silent drifting snow, its kind, no.

But the fire chortles here, rubbing its hands of flame, and we are carousing in rough song, blessed in the small hours, where cold bites at the house who cannot enter yet. And well met. Carol Ann Duffy, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for sharing that with us and reading it. That's a treat for us.

What inspired that poem and why do you want to, if you like, prescribe it to us today? I wrote the poem a couple of years ago around the time of New Year. And usually just after Christmas, I go up to the Scottish Highlands with a big band of friends and family. And we all do our own thing, go walking or working in the day and then we come together at a long table for dinner in the evenings so the poem is is about that a kind of love poem to friends and family but of course we all had people we'd lost who normally would have been there but weren't there but were there in our hearts so um that was how i wrote that but it's it's interesting with poetry how they can shift in time so a poem written in the

past can suddenly run ahead of you and appear in the present or the future and become differently relevant it might be interesting to read for you. Yes, and you can read that in a slightly different way now, can't you, in a wistful way for what people are not able to do at the moment. Yes, and again, to repeat that, that's what poetry does. It travels with us through our lives and it presents different faces and aspects to us depending on what is happening what do you think it can do in terms of the way we think poetry you know in terms of i i personally feel with some of these messages coming in from our

listeners and they're doing pretty well just writing things some of them and messaging them in now and they may feel quite intimidated that you're listening to them even but um it does make you slow down doesn't it poetry and perhaps ponder the words because they've been so carefully chosen well i thought those two you read were lovely i can't imagine how one could write something so quickly it would take me a month to come up with eight lines like that. So thank you for those. I think in terms of language, we're surrounded by a 24-7 babble and almost gibbering, which is not good for our mental health. And it was interesting, the previous conversation,

how that kind of language can actually create a dangerous alternative reality. I think poetry uses language very differently at its best. It uses language in the way that perhaps prayer does. It compresses so much into a little space. It causes us to slow down, to read, to re-read. It can surprise us, it can remind us, it can make us feel as though something we feel has suddenly appeared in language. So I think it's a precious and permanent and small part of how we should live.

I was looking right at the beginning of the first national lockdown. You prescribed poems via The Guardian, poems to get us through. Have you been drawing on certain words and certain writings that make you feel a bit better during this time? Well, I've had the privilege of being able to work at home and my job is with the writing school at Manchester Metropolitan University. So during the first lockdown, I curated a project called Write Where We Are Now, which is a sort of radical reimagining of the anthology. So poets were writing in real time,

wherever they were around the world, about their experiences of the pandemic. And we got upwards of 500 poems by contemporary poets, which is still there on the website. So I was very involved in curating that over the past few months. And reading, I suppose, how people are feeling, as you say, at the moment, because it is an extraordinary time for people to perhaps try and express themselves. And in some ways, some people may have more time than they've had before.

And we are still getting in, I have to say, many poems which seem to have been written this morning or people have been taking time to do in advance of it. I just want to share another of yours because you mentioned prayer there. And this is one of your most popular poems that you've read for us. So let's let's have a listen to that. Some days, although we cannot pray, a prayer utters itself. So a woman will lift her head from the sieve of her hands

and stare at the minims sung by a tree, a sudden gift. Some nights, although we are faithless, the truth enters our hearts, that small familiar pain. Then a man will stand, stock still, hearing his youth in the distant Latin chanting of a train. Pray for us now. Grade one piano scales console the lodger looking out across a Midlands town. Then dusk and someone calls a child's name as though they named their loss. Darkness outside. Inside the radio's prayer. Rockall, Malin, Dogger, Finisterre. It's Caroline Duffy with her poem Prayer. I just think that line, you know, a woman will lift her head from the sieve of her hands and the idea of prayer, you know, utters itself.

How much do you think people are kind of praying at the moment and thinking perhaps in ways they haven't? I've been on my knees for nearly a year, that's all I can say. Really? Yeah. I mean, I think if you're privileged enough, as I am, to have a garden, the connection with birdsong, pond life, trees, plants has become very important to many people. Getting outdoors, just being in the world is very important. And that, for me, I mean, I'm not a religious person.

I do feel myself to be spiritual. But that connection with the natural world is, for me, close to prayer. And it also allows you to discard thought in a way so that your mind empties of the babble that we mentioned earlier and adjusts itself to being able to be here and to be grateful for that. Yes, well, thank you for taking us out of the babble and cutting through. Carol Ann Duffy, it's very good to talk to you. All the best.

Thank you. A message here come in, which is just a lovely one as well from Elena, who says, I wake up in warm darkness, having my morning coffee. I'm still tired. My home is asleep and gently snoring. I move my body through tiredness

emotion wakes me i'm grateful for it all and one here a poem for women's hour emma baking sighing painting sighing crafting sighing assuring family i'm fine lying and just one more if i may from tamzin in london you know so many here it's Thank you so much. I've lived in cities all my life. I'm used to the noise and throng, the grit, the beauty, the street songs, a place where everyone belongs. But now my city is quiet and eerie, a place hidden with the weary. People

are so battered and torn, worn down by this Covid storm. How long this will last, nobody knows. The sick are riddled with illness from their head to their toes at present anything goes so let us take a moment to gently close our eyes and to those in need send our most healing vibes well on that some of you will be beginning again the clap for as it was carers begins again this evening it's now rebranded as clap for heroes however you're doing it keep

getting in touch with us it's a joy to read the words that are getting you through and helping us get through. That's what we're here to do at Woman's Hour. 84844 is the number you need. Or on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. And we'll be coming back to activism, which is how we've sort of been talking this morning, but in a very different way to how we began the programme

and talking to a woman who's been living in a tree and a tent outside Parliament full time. So that's still to come. But a key legal hearing starts in Scotland today with a campaign group challenging the Scottish Government over the meaning of the word woman in relation to a piece of equality legislation. The campaign group For Women Scotland

has been granted a judicial review into the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act 2018. It was passed a couple of years ago in an effort to drive up the number of women in senior positions on public bodies. Its wording covers trans women who have changed their legal sex from male to female using a gender recognition certificate, as well as others who are living as a woman and proposing to undergo such a change for the purpose of being female. Susan Smith from For Women Scotland joins me now, as well as Jennifer Ang, who's a lawyer representing Scottish Trans, which has been permitted to make a submission to the hearing as an interested party. Scottish Trans, we should say,

have specifically asked Jennifer to speak to us on their behalf today. You're both in Edinburgh and I know you'll be following the case via video conferencing. If I come to you first, Susan, why did you seek this judicial review? I'm hoping. Hello, Susan. We're just going to open your line there. Sorry. Why did you seek this judicial review i think we've still got an issue because you are talking here i'm just going to make sure you're off mute which is the um coronavirus world that we live in being socially distanced for these interviews why did you seek this review um first thing to be here about the actions with this i'm so sorry susan we having not been able to hear you now the line isn't very good The first thing to be clear about is that I'm just with this.

I'm so sorry, Susan. Having not been able to hear you now, the line isn't very good. So we will sort that out. Let me go to Jennifer, if I may. Jennifer, hello. Hello. Hi, I can hear you. Let me start, if I may.

We'll hear from Susan in a moment why this judicial review has been sought. But what I wanted to ask you is what are you trying to defend what do you want to put into this of course well the judicial review as um as you spoke to is about challenging the definition of women as it includes trans women in a piece of legislation that is about achieving 50 50 representation of women on public boards in Scotland. We are working with Scottish Trans Alliance and represented them in the intervention because what For Women Scotland would achieve in their legal case if they're successful is rolling back the legislation entirely. That would be a loss in terms of a right to equal representation on boards for women across Scotland. If they achieved their narrow goal, they would succeed in excluding some women, some trans women.

Trans women in Scotland, as far as we understand, account for less than half of 1% of all women in Scotland. The Trans Alliance, they work for the promotion of the equality of trans people across Scotland. They asked to intervene. The case was not against them. The case was against the Scottish government. But they asked to intervene to provide the court with information on what the impact would be if Poor Women Scotland succeeded in what they're asking for on trans women. The intervention is a 5,000-word statement. It includes legal arguments from the Equality Network's experience of the discrimination that trans people experience, and it also includes some direct testimonies, so some examples from trans women living in Scotland today of how being excluded from this definition would deter them

or would harm them from being able to enter public life. So let me now try and get Susan in on this. Susan, why did you seek this judicial review? I'm really hoping the line's better. It is not. I'm terribly sorry about this. We're going to see if we can get you onto the phone away from Zoom it's just going in and out

which is a terrible shame. Jennifer you were just saying there that if this if you put this as you put it if the achievement of a narrow goal it would exclude some trans women from boards but as I understand and I'm sorry to put words in Susan's

mouth but considering her line's not working I'm going to have to try and do that there is a concern that uh that this is actually trying to get self-identification through the back door something which the uk government has rowed back from um i'm sorry i are you i are you no susan we're going to just take you out at the moment i'm sorry because your line is is is too difficult jennifer could you could you answer that of course um so this that is not what this case is about this case is specifically about the definition of women in the context of a piece of scott. So who is counted as a woman just for purposes of this pro-equality measure to increase the representation of women on boards?

Yes, but it's at odds with wider legislation and where the UK government has come out, is it not? No, I think that's incorrect. Actually, what our view is in our legal representations is that what the Scottish government did is consistent with the Equality Act. So the Scotland Act gives the Scottish government specific powers in order to promote equality on public boards in Scotland. And it was within those powers that the Act was passed. Promoting equality included promoting equality for women, but also for people with other protected characteristics including um people who are transitioning so do

you think sorry so you think it's you think it's commensurate with the equalities act but what about my question with regards to the gender recognition act uh it is it is it is also consistent with the gender recognition act the gender recognition act um is a very specific legal instrument that allows people to change their gender on their birth certificates. But of the class of people who are trans women, only some of them have used the Gender Recognition Act to do that. It's not a requirement to use it. There are far greater number of women who are trans women and living as women, but who haven't done that. And I think the key point here is if you are a trans woman, and again,

some of the testimony in the intervention outlines this, who has been living as a woman for decades without this piece, you may have been able to obtain a passport or a driving license, you're using a woman's name. And for all intents and purposes, you are a woman publicly. And that includes experiences of suffering misogyny. I'm going to have to now try and give Susan the microphone. Of course. Try very hard. Susan, hello. Thank you. Hello. The first thing to be absolutely clear about is that our issue is not with this legislation.

We are not looking to roll back the legislation. It is purely with the definition of women. Because if you believe, as we do, that women are discriminated against because of their sex, then the law and mechanisms for overcoming discrimination have to include and have to acknowledge that sex basis. And we know from the work of women like Caroline Criado-Paris that women still face structural and institutional barriers that have nothing to do, frankly, with the definitions in this Act. So are you, Susan, now because i'm very short of time and also if you could just turn down your radio or anything you have in the background because it's

it's terribly repeating on itself are you are you saying that you are concerned that this is going to be redefining women because in a way if you like through the back door which is what i was sort of paraphrasing and jennifer completely refutes uh because this has been allowed in one specific circumstance on women on boards. Yeah, because the issue that we have is that this is effectively a thin end of the wedge, that if you allow an Equality Act definition to be undermined in a discrete piece of legislation, then that opens the door for Scottish government to redefine other protected characteristics as and when they want. And what Scottish trans have been trying to do for a very long time is to undermine the sex as a basis of protection. They've tried to remove sex-based exemptions in the Equality Act.

And we are not saying that trans women should not be able to seek positions on public boards. A lot of this stuff that is thrown at us is absolute nonsense and lies. We're just saying that if you have mechanisms that are supposed to enable people to overcome sex-based discrimination, then it has to be robust.

And what this legislation does is it removes entirely sex as the basis. And it replaces it with something that is purely linguistic and that is about the name on a bank account, which actually, ironically, a woman couldn't even have within living memory, purely because of her sex. We will have to see what happens with this. It is a legal hearing which starts in Scotland today. Thank you very much for both of you for persevering there and for talking to us today. Susan, Jennifer, for your time, thank you.

Now, a tree has been pulled down in Hackney. You could say, so what? Trees get pulled down all the time, you know, albeit we have relationships with those trees, but it wasn't just any old tree. It was 150 years old. It actually had a name, a happy man, after a pub that used to be nearby. And here's the moment it happened. Campaigners have been trying to save it for months

and despite the bitter cold, they've been living in the branches, sleeping there, trying to stop this. One of them is Maria Galastegui. Good morning. Oh, good morning to you, Emma. What was it like when it was cut down? I wasn't actually present at that point, but it would have been devastating for everybody who actually witnessed it

or who could bear to witness it. They came in in the early hours of the morning. I was in the tree. I was occupying the tree. There was so many people. There were 100 bailiffs there. There was police. There was tree cutters. I could see from where I was there was a lorry and the tree cutting machine so the tree was going to come down that very day. We

weren't expecting that, we thought they might fence it off and give us a chance to sort of come to terms with that but they felled it right in front of the public, took the fence down, it had a climate emergency written on the fence, the hoarding at the back. That was ripped apart and then so the whole area was opened up because the development site is all flat at the back so all you can see is the tree and it was taken apart in a terrible

it's a reckless, reckless thing to have happened and a totally irresponsible thing to do. I mean Hackney Council say it was necessary in terms of a statement from Hackney Council and Barclay Homes the Council say it was necessary in terms of a statement from Hackney Council and Barclay Homes the developers it was necessary to make sure nearly 600 homes would be built some of them affordable they say it was a last resort and they spent a long time working it through with residents and it wasn't an easy decision it was approved twice by the council's

independent planning committee but can I can I just say to you as a as someone who slept in a tree did everything you could there and it's not your first campaign. You're a full time activist and campaigner, which I do want to get on to. I just wanted to ask, you know, what is it like to attach yourself to a tree like that? Sleep there? Can you sleep there? What is it like to commit yourself like that? Well, you can sleep there. Of course you can. You just got to make sure you don't jump up in the morning and jump out of bed too quick that you're in the tree um but uh no the point is the issue is important that's why you're there and because of that you're able to overcome any

difficulties uh i work even even when you were cold and and sort of feeling it probably in your bones yeah but you know you've got the camp outside Euston station you've got one in Highbury you've got them all over the country now and people will endure and can endure and are very strong and resilient uh depending on the circumstances and if you've got a cause that is very very important you will rise to that occasion I'm a member of a whole team of people so you know we work together and we support each other. You used to be a coach driver. I did, yes. And then you gave it all up to be an activist, a campaigner, full time. Yes, I went on strike actually 14 years ago, more than that now. Yeah, because at the time

it was changing the law in Parliament Square. They tried to stop protests there 24 hours. So the only way to do that was to back up the campaign, which was Mr Brian Hoare, so that then if he needed to have a break or something, the camp wasn't left unattended because then they would have used that as an excuse to take the camp. So I gave up my job that day. And how do you live? How do you make ends meet?

Oh, well, for years I've, friends, certain friends and family have supported me. And I used to play the penny whistle as a busker to get cash. And I basically lived in a sort of homeless shelter that was from Parliament Square was made homeless. So basically, I kept that status. Because you were living in a tent in Parliament Square? Yes, six years. And you're now 62. I check you didn't mind me sharing that. No, no, I didn't mind.

You've got to paint an image. There's nothing wrong with that either way. But I just ask because, of course, doing this sort of thing full time is gruelling. It's for very few people, isn't it? Yes, but, you know, we're passionate people. That's the point. So any campaign that you can think of, they don't start overnight.

There's usually lots of underlining issues and the system isn't dealing with those issues. So you've got them across the country. You've got, you know, you've got the arms fair, the campaign against the arms trade. You've got East London against the arms fair. You've got a peace campaign in aldermaston and they're all on on very specific issues of the arms trade weapons being made aldermaston um what would you say weapons what would you say though to people who say you know

without us working full-time and creating the system i suppose that can then support people into homeless shelters, whatever, you wouldn't be able to do this. Because I'm just thinking right back to the start of the programme, we were talking about activism. Those people in America think they're activists. They see themselves as that. Of course, it turned violent. You are not in a violent capacity. But what would you say to that? You can't do it full time.

You have to work. Oh, no, you do. Generally, you do. That's the point. And actually, that's what keeps the system in its place because you people cannot break out of their their lives their mortgages their their school children the elderly parents um your responsibilities your home that you're paying uh no you can't break out of that. So you're always controlled within the system, but I'm not in the system per se anymore. So therefore I'm like a free agent and I can, I'm, I mean, it's a privileged position that I'm in, you know, because so many people are.

Just couldn't do it. No, they're not able to do it. Fascinating to talk to you, Maria, and that tree we wanted to talk about as well. So we've been able to do both. Thank you for your time today. Thank you very your time today. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.