Woman's Hour - Carol Vorderman, Film director Ellen Kuras, SEND provision for black and Asian minority ethnic families.

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

Beware the post-menopausal women who doesn’t give a damn, says 63-year-old TV presenter Carol Vorderman. Carol, a self-described ‘old bird with an iphone’ joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her new book: Now What? On a Mission to Fix Broken Britain. Part memoir, part tool kit the book relates Carols campaign to defeat the last Tory Government, and urges millions to find their voice and hold the new Labour Government, and all future governments, to better account. Following on from the Woman’s Hour SEND programme yesterday, we now focus specifically on SEND provision for black and Asian minority ethnic families. Nuala is joined by Stephen Kingdom, Campaign Manager for the Disabled Children’s Partnership, who shares exclusive findings from a report they have conducted. Plus, co-founder of the Sikh disability charity SEN Seva Praveen Mahal tells Nuala about her own personal experience. The pioneering photographer Lee Miller worked as a fashion model and an artist before becoming a war correspondent for British Vogue in the 1930s. Her images taken during World War II are some of the most arresting and enduring of the conflict. A new film about her life, which stars Kate Winslet, focuses on the period in her life when she defied convention to become a war photographer, travelling to the front lines. The film’s director Ellen Kuras explains how they captured Lee Miller’s adventurous spirit.Last night saw the first - and so far, only scheduled - televised presidential debate in the USA ahead of the election in November. Kamala Harris and Donald Trump spoke for 90 minutes, each accusing the other of lying. Women's issues were on the table for debate including a heated exchange on abortion. Nuala discusses with New York Times columnist Amanda Taub.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. And first off, thanks to all of you who contributed to yesterday's programme on Send. Well, today we're going to bring you a new report. We said we're going to continue covering it. We will. Today, the findings of a report into the provision for black and Asian minority ethnic disabled children. That coming up. Also in a moment, Carol Vorderman. She has a new book calling for those not usually interested in politics to get involved.

I'm looking forward to welcoming her back into the Woman's Hour studio. Also today, Ellen Corris. She's the director of the film Lee. This is a story of one part of the life of war photographer Lee Miller, played by Kate Winslet. Lee was a fearless trailblazer documenting World War II. So stay with us to learn more about her.

And anyone bleary-eyed? Anyone stay up to watch the US presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, where we're going to drill down onto what was said about the future of abortion in the country and also whether Taylor Swift's endorsement will make a difference. Get in touch on any of the discussions where you'd like to add your voice.

You can text the programme 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. If WhatsApp is your preferred method of being in contact with us, you can message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. But first, well, let's go to when we first met Carol Vorderman. It was through her passion for mathematics and skill with numbers that she landed a role on the game show Countdown. And her decades on the programme then made her a household name.

But in recent years, Carol has been on our screens as a political activist, determined, I'm using her words, to bring the Tories down. Now, as we know, Labour won. The Tories are out. So what's next for Carol? Well, she has a new book called Now What? On a Mission to Fix Broken Britain. Welcome, Carol.

Oh, thank you very much for having me. Or I should say, welcome back. Now, I have to go to this phrase. Yes, go on. You talk about the impact of a self-described old bird with an iPhone. Quite the phrase. Well, because it's the truth. Because I literally am just me with my iPhone. And I have been spending hours and hours and hours screenshotting, diving into evidence and data about politicians and their misdeeds and so on.

And then I would compose the tweet and put it together. And I haven't got an office of people. I haven't got a team. It is just me. And I have met many wonderful people online through it and organisations. So that's why I say I am just an old bird with an iPhone. Which in some ways, maybe if somebody else said it, not about themselves, it could be considered somewhat derogatory. Well, it is. But Richard Whiteley, you mentioned Countdown and he always, he used to call his three women his quality birds.

So it was me on Countdown, Krista on the local show that used to do Calendar and Kathy, who was his partner. We were his quality birds. So for me, it's a very fond term, you know, to say that. But what I would also say, Nila, is beware the post-menopausal woman

who actually doesn't give a damn what other people now say about us. And is that now you? That is me. Yes, absolutely. So what happened? Was it menopause or something else? No, I don't think it was that at all. So on and off over decades, I have met and been on the outskirts really of politics. So I worked with David Blunkett in the late 90s because he was introducing the National Numeracy Hour.

And then when he became Home Secretary, I had made lots of investigative documentaries about these new things online, which were called chat rooms. So I'm going back to the early 2000s. very proud to say we introduced the very first the world's first act so that grooming a child online became a criminal act that was first in the world and then later I worked with Michael Gove and Dominic Cummings again 2009-2010 about mathematics so it's always been in that kind of arena. But then over the course of the last parliament, particularly, and after the first lockdown, where all of us were trying to do our best to help our fellow man and woman and child, everybody was doing everything that they could to then learn about Partygate, to then learn particularly about the VIP PPE lane, I thought was horrific.

I thought, surely this hasn't happened in this country. So that was really what spurred me on. And you sent that first tweet, which you identify and drill down into in the book. Yes, I do. My first political tweet. So there's kind of a, you talk about, you know, pre or post-menopausal, but there's kind of a pre and post tweeting, Carol, shall we say.

Yes. Did you ever expect to be at the place that you are now after that tweet? No, believe me, from Tories and others. It showed me and a lot of abuse, I must get about 1000 messages. I want to come back to that. Yeah, about 1000 a day, I think I get. And nowadays, particularly. And I won't be bullied. And in the book, I talk about my story and about, you know, a lot of people were saying two years ago,

they'll always get away with it, nothing will change. And I said, no, we can together. We're stronger together. We can change things. Because there is a sense that mainstream media is not necessarily giving the full picture there's a sense of that and so I was trying to fill in some of the gaps but by doing that I had to take on a number of people legally and otherwise and I want people to learn more about your background as well because I think it's a really interesting one

but I will go to the abuse for a background as well, because I think it's a really interesting one. But I will go to the abuse for a moment, because even as I was researching your book and, you know, taking a look at your social media feeds, it is shocking the amount of abuse that is there. And I know you have blocked out certain words if you want to elaborate for our listeners. Well, yes. So on X, you can mute certain words. So even though people can write abusive things, I don't know whether I can say the words on air, actually. But I mean, think of the most offensive words that you can and you can mute those words. That are often about a woman. They're all about a woman, aren't they?

Beware the misogynist, by the way, if you're listening. Probably not. But I'm coming after you next year. Oh, boy. I'm not. What do you mean? What are you going to do? Well, I should come on next year and tell you.

Because women generally, we're taught in society. So I'll be 64 in December. My background, as you say, and again, I talk about, I've written a book. It's quite funny in places um it's in three parts so the first part is like what has politics got to do with me because a lot of people say that and the disconnect now between the political class and the elite so-called elite and the voters has never been bigger only 52% of people who could have registered and voted did so. It's never been bigger.

And why is that? When we have more news programmes, more news stations, the availability of news is there more than ever before. And that's what I try to say. Well, it's because people believe that politics isn't for them. And women have been told traditionally. So I'm brought up in poverty, preschool meals kid from North Wales,

lived most of my life in the North and I've lived in Bristol now for 20 years. So I'm a provincial woman and I feel very much this, the wealthy Southeast dominating the headlines. The new, what is discussed is very much and you feel too london-centric as well absolutely too london-centric and the media didn't used to be like that we did countdown up in leeds for 26 years granada was massive

yorkshire television and i think there is a push trying to go back well i hope so decentralized because it only adds to this disconnect and i were you this country. Obviously, I do. And I'm very grateful for all the help that I have had over the years. So then I have a diary about the tweets, which is quite funny. And then a sort of plan for change, really, which is about codes of conduct and how they should be changed because they fundamentally don't exist. And we have political scandals more or less every five years. Reform the House of Lords, ban old Etonians. Are you serious about that? Absolutely, I'm serious. So let's get into that one because it's just one. No old Etonians in the cabinet.

In the cabinet until at least 2050. Yes. But, and I know you list some of the people that you are, that you are displeased with for using a mitigating word. But the dominance of that singular school has never been greater. You would imagine it was greater

in the past years, but it never has been. But you have sent your children to private school, one which has additional needs to be transparent. And I had parents come up to me yesterday very upset about the 20% increase in VAT

for independent schools when their children don't have an education and health care plan, for example. Some might call that hypocritical if you're in favour of certain private schools but not others. Well, I don't think it is.

I mean, if you want to call me a hypocrite, call me a hypocrite. But had VAT been on there, I would have paid the VAT. The thing that I can't bear to witness it. And surely we should have advanced. And the disconnect is not helping. So what I'm trying to do is bring people in and say, actually, we can we can get changed together, but we have to be together. And Eden gets singled out, shall we say, in that way. Well, it does, because let's be fair, Nuala, everyone who goes to a comp or a state school,

particularly if you're in the north, they're automatically by the society rejected to some degree. And let me get to your early life. You call it dirt poor growing up in Wales. Is that poverty at the beginning? You even lived at the circus at certain times,

which is incredible. But we'll get into some of the details and your beloved mum, of course, that you had with you at that time. But is that the driver? Because I'm trying to understand what is it that's within Carol Vorderman that makes her so dogged?

It's the sense of injustice. I cannot bear the sense of injustice. We will never all live in a world where everybody's equal and so on. But the sense of inequality, the observation of corruption in the last parliament particularly, the observation of corruption in the last parliament, particularly the austerity, which hasn't helped. We live in a broken society and the infrastructure.

I mean, you tell me what's working now. I first voted in 1979, obviously Thatcher's first landslide election. And we were promised this privatization was going to, you know, it's all going to be very efficient. Everything was going to be cheaper. And this utopia was going to happen. Well, look at the water companies, look at the rail companies, and I could go on. And none of that, it was all a lie.

So, you know, part of it is renationalization of certain industries that I would propose water and rail particularly. So it's having lived through a time. So my mates who were council house kids, we lived in rented accommodation, not on a council estate, but they were all, you know, council house, their natural expectation back then would be to marry young. You know, you left school at 16 and you became an apprentice butcher or whatever it might be. And their natural expectation, because that is what happened, was to marry young, have children, and then they'd have a council house or a council flat. Then right by happened. And so that expectation isn't there now. And I know you talk about Thatcher and the previous 14 years to where we are now of Tories, but we have a Labour government now.

The Tories are gone. Last night there was a vote on the winter fuel payment, which passed. I saw you were previously giving Labour a four out of 10, zero out of 10 for the Conservatives, I should say. I'm referring to your book. Have you revised that figure for Labour? Well, I think they've done many good things since

they've come in. Obviously, for me, scrapping the Rwanda bill and also the way they dealt with the riots, which I've never seen anything like that. I mean, it was horrendous. I thought they did very well. I cannot understand how they have scrapped the winter fuel allowance for 10 million.

I understand for the wealthier pensioners, I will be one of them in two years' time. I wouldn't need it, as many don't. I get that. But the level to which they've cut it is wrong. It's categorically wrong. And what it saddens me that it's one of the first things in terms of finance that they have announced rather than introducing more of an equality of tax on capital gains and income tax, rather than introducing the tax on private equity managers of which there are only a couple of thousand in the country all London based so it's it's all of those things I think what message are you giving us Labour? So let us see what their next moves. So I downgrade it to a

two out of ten. Oh two out of ten okay to know. You heard it here on Woman's Hour. And you don't want to go within the system I have read. No, absolutely not. That you want to remain independent. I do. And continue speaking out about the things that matter to you.

So let's talk a little bit more about your motivation. I did read in the book that there was a stalking episode. Yes, that's right. And I'm sorry you had to go through that. A couple of years ago. But what was that transformation then? Because I felt so over the years,

probably no surprise as a celebrity, for want of a better word, you get stalkers, you get harassed. I mean, there's online abuse. That's one thing. But when people actually appear, that's quite another thing. So at various points in my life, the police have been involved to obviously keep me safe etc i won't go into the details of those but one of those events happened during the first lockdown and the police got involved and that was all cleared up and then there was another one where there were two and i'm putting these as stalkers in inverted commas here because i don't want to give too much description. And what was being done brought me to my knees. And I thought, how on earth am I going to do this? Shall I go to the police? Shall I not go to the... And you get, you know, you think, oh, if it goes to trial,

then X, Y, Z will happen. Do I want that? So I got lawyers and eventually they had to sign various documents, which is effectively a civil restraining order. So then I thought after that, I thought, hang on, there are all of these women and girls who don't have the resource. I've made a lot of money on television. I have financial independence. And with that, it gives me extra freedoms, which it shouldn't. And what about these girls who are being abused and harassed and stalked and so on? It seems that the police don't do very much about it. And that those report after report comes out saying that. And that's one of the aspects of life that I really want to concentrate on next year. But it gave me a strength because I'm quite good at fighting for other people.

I'm not very good at fighting for myself, but I am very good at fighting on behalf of other people. And so going through that experience, perhaps crystallizing that for you in some way. But, you know, we've touched on the abuse that comes daily. You've talked about stalking that actual people in real life so to speak um and where do you put the fear or how do you manage and maybe there's no fear when when you look at trolls i don't know you tell me well i thank them at the back of the book i say well you know in, so thank you to the trolls who give me my oxygen because I know I'm doing something right and I won't be bullied. And I know that there are the essence of what I believe is that the majority of people in this country are good and kind people.

And nothing will change my mind about that. But often good and kind people are the silent ones. Women are taught by society, by newspapers and so on to remain silent. Well, don't bother them. Be genteel. Be polite. Don't wear that. Do this.

Don't do that. So, you know, I really want to focus next year on women finding their voice more. And you say you won't be bullied i won't be bullied you come across as fearless are you or do you also have fear at times uh sometimes physical fear um but no i mean because you're speaking out if somebody appears in in person which occasionally happens, yes, you think, oh, OK. But no, I have no fear on mine at all. In fact, I deliberately, when Kamala Harris was obviously put forward as the Democratic nomination for president,

I was deliberately posting out because it wound up the far right. And I'd deliberately go, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And when she started to lead in the polls, I have the devil in me. I know that. And sometimes I deliberately wind them up. So you enjoy it? Yeah, I enjoy a little spat every now and again. Carol Vorderman will talk. Let's see when this project,

the next project you have, I know you're looking towards 2029 when it comes to elections. That's part of the book as well. Her book is called now What? On a Mission to Fix Broken Britain. Let me get that out. On a Mission to Fix Broken Britain. Thanks so much for coming to join us

on Woman's Hour. Well, I mentioned yesterday's Woman's Hour was a very special and a very important programme. We were live from the Radio Theatre in Broadcasting House in London, looking at the support for children with special educational needs

and disabilities, or SEND, as it's often known in England. It was just the beginning of a really passionate conversation. And I could tell that just from the audience who came to listen, as well as the comments of those of you at home.

And I want to bring you a few of those that came in. Here's Emma. A single mum of a SEND child says, one of the things about being a mum of a child with SEND is that even when there is good news, a new school, a good start to the term, etc., you're constantly waiting for it to turn bad. It's hard to celebrate because you have so much experience of your child being failed. Sarah says, I'm a parent of a teen with SEND. We have fought since our now 16-year-old was first in school at four.

Throughout education, he's had his needs disregarded, ignored and unmet. We were lucky we were able to call time on school and he now has support at home. He got his EHCP, that's the Educational Health Care Plan and Care Plan in year six. He has never hadCP, that's the Educational Health Care Plan and Care Plan, in year six. He has never had a fair chance in his

current system. Lois, great discussion on SEN. My son is 11, has been out of school for two years with autistic burnout. We heard about that yesterday. I've had to reduce work hours. The stress on our child and family has been immense. Local authorities push back constantly to families because

of their budget constraints and force children into environments that are damaging for them. The system needs restricting and funding. Now throughout the programme we heard from guest panellists. That included Kelly Bright, an actress in EastEnders, also a mum to a child with SEND. Katie, who's just 17

but says she was completely failed by the SEND system. We had Dame Rachel D'Souza, the Children's Commissioner, and Minister for School Standards Catherine McKinnell. At the end of the hour, I asked Kelly and Katie to reflect on what they heard and how they were feeling. I watched the debate in Parliament last week and yes, of course, it's great that they're saying what they're saying,

but it needs to turn into action. That ultimately is what it feels like. And I think for a lot of STEM parents, we're disheartened, you know? We do feel hopeless. So, you know, those changes need to come, but they do need to be big, bold changes. Are you convinced of what you're hearing?

No! You know, funding is the biggest part of this. Of course it is. But it also takes someone, someone in government, to say, we need to look at this and tear it up and start again. I think what I'm hearing is that you want a culture change. That is what has come to me during this hour. Very briefly, because I've just got a couple of minutes, I want to turn to you, Katie, on what you've heard. Yes, I agree with everything Kelly just

said. Funding is an issue, but the system has no empathy for what children and families are going through. The education system likes to put children in little boxes, and if you don't fit in that box, you get pushed out. And I don't see that government doing enough to tackle that particular issue. Bridget Philipson recently tweeted that all children belong at school. I don't. I have PTSD. If I go into a school right now, I will have a meltdown. I cannot go to school. I don't. I have PTSD. If I go into a school right now, I will have a meltdown. I cannot go to school. I just want children, young people to be treated like individuals. Kelly Bright and Katie there, and you can listen to the whole episode of That's End programme on

BBC Sounds. But I wanted to pick out something in particular that was said by another of our guests on the panel. That was Marsha Martin. Marsha is the founder and CEO of the charity Black Send Mamas. She describes herself as a black mother to neurodiverse children who is autistic herself. And this is a little of what she told us about her experience. Living as a minority within a minority that's

black and disabled, it means that the challenges that we face, same as the rest of the country, are difficult, but also they're a little bit more confounded because we're looking at racial biases as well as disability discrimination. And that is meaning that access to things like educational support, EHCP support, our interventions come late, our diagnoses come late. The quality and timeliness of the information that we're given, because you're never really given information, is also affected. And then that kind of trickles down to our outcomes as far as educational attainment also our social and mental and emotional health is also affected in a more acute capacity because we have so many different intersectional barriers kind of crossed and serving as a hindrance to us getting the support that we need. And this morning on Woman's Hour we can exclusively reveal the findings of a report into the provision for black and Asian minority ethnic disabled children,

young people and also their families. This report was carried out by the Disabled Children's Partnership, or the DCP, which is a coalition of more than 100 organisations that campaign for improved support for disabled children and young people and their families, as I mentioned. I spoke to the DCP's campaign manager, that is Stephen Kingdom, about the report and he told me why they wanted to look into this in the first place. Well, it really started from our research during the pandemic when we looked at how support for

families with disabled children was impacted and we found that across the board families were isolated, the support they needed disappeared they were poor mental health they were stressed but actually all those things were worse for families from black and asian backgrounds so we wanted to look at what that was like as it were in more normal times and see how well services were supporting families from those backgrounds so who did you speak to we what was really important was we did this research with families themselves. So we recruited parent researchers from those backgrounds who then interviewed other families to talk about their experiences.

And how many families were you talking to? So we interviewed 23 families. We had six researchers who interviewed 23 families. We had six researchers. We interviewed 23 families. So it's a small sample. But what did you find? Yeah, it is a small sample. We also looked at what the literature said and found actually there wasn't very much.

But what we found was, I think reflecting what Marsha from SEN Mamas said yesterday, that we're a marginalised community within a marginalised community. So a lot of the problems that will be familiar to all families with disabled children looking for support from social care

were there. The difficulty in getting support, being treated through a safeguarding lens, approached as though there were safeguarding issues rather than just a need to support in caring for your children. Let me get into that actually because I thought that was quite interesting

looking at your report. So the majority of research and literature around black and Asian minority ethnic disabled children and their families comes from a point of protection against things like domestic abuse, for example, rather than a position of support and how to help these children be educated and thrive.

That's right. That is where the research is focused. And there's very little research that looks at sort of all the components together. So there's research that looks at disability. There's research that looks at ethnicity issues. But research that really brings that together is lacking. And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to take this forward. So when you've heard from the parents,

what's some of the main kind of very concrete, tangible issues that arise? So there are issues around how they are approached by services who come in in almost a policing inspection way about where are the failings in the parenting rather than how can we support this family who have additional needs because their children are disabled. That's true for actually all families with disabled children. What we found on top was that there were assumptions and prejudices that impacted, doubly impacted on how these families were affected. So to take a couple of specific examples, more than one parent from South Asian heritage told us that because they were well educated and literate, that actually that social care workers assumed they were doctors,

and therefore assumed they had a level of knowledge that they just didn't have. And then they felt guilty for not knowing more about their child's disability and their child's medical needs, but that was because they'd been assumed they were doctors. Or another case of a parent from a first generation Indian immigrant who had an autistic son. The son was toilet trained later than other children. And a social worker said to them, although people pee in the streets in India, that was not acceptable in the UK and that that sort of casual racism is really is really disturbing. So you have some of these findings what are you calling for what you want to happen? Well what we want to see is a real focus on the specific needs of families from these areas so we want to see local authorities really look at how their services are configured

to really review and work with families to understand the impact their services are configured, to really review and work with families to understand the impact their services are having and how they're supporting families. And we want the government as it takes forward its reforms to include specific elements and a specific focus on families from Black and Asian backgrounds. Do you think, because we had this conversation yesterday about, you know, timelines and reforms, is it something that you also believe is going to take a long time? I think we're very worried it will take a long time because we're very worried about the fiscal position. And there is an urgent need for more investment. I mean, if we're looking at social care support, over time, children's social care has got more and more focused on the hard end, on child protection, on children in care. And support in the home for families, families with disabled children, has dropped to the bottom of the priority list.

And there is a massive funding gap, a half a billion pound funding gap for those services. And without seeing that filled filled we're going to see progress being very slow. It's very interesting it's something we'll have to talk about at a future date of how that fiscally is being balanced about protection versus education as you've outlined. Thanks so much for spending some time with us Stephen. Thank you very much for having me. Disabled Children's Partnership campaign manager Stephen Kingdom there speaking to me a little earlier. I'm joined now by Parveen Mahal who is a co-founder of SEVA and SENSEVA I should say which is a Sikh disability charity. She's also mother to an autistic daughter. I met you briefly yesterday Parveen in the audience.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thank you No Nawal, for inviting me. Good to have you with us. You co-founded Senseva about a year ago. Why was it necessary, do you think? From my experience as a co-chair for our local parent carer forum, I was finding that there was a sect of our community, South Asian community, who were very isolated, both from a religious aspect and cultural aspect. There was nothing there for them specifically. And while we talk about stigma of disability, I think it's very nuanced in different, like the Muslim community, the Hindu and the Sikh. They needed to feel connected as a bond. And I think that was the reason that we co-founded it, to create a network for them.

And what was your experience or what has your experience been like within the community? Not accepted. A disability not accepted? Yeah. There's a lack of understanding of disability. And I also feel if we look back to when my parents migrated to the UK in the 60s and 70s, they are brought up, they had to work hard to build a future in this country.

And perhaps they adopted the British values of working really hard, maybe colonized to a certain extent. And our expectation was our children should be a success story, that we should be educated and that our children are going to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc. But when you have a child with a disability, let's hide them. Let's put them away, you know. I was struck yesterday when we spoke briefly that you said, you know, some people within your community would not even be speaking about the educational and health care plans, for example, or local authorities and funding. Because the very first part of recognising that disability would not happen never mind about the conversations that need to take place afterwards. Yeah I mean yesterday it just it hit home that actually there's a huge cohort of parents

communities that wouldn't be able to access what was happening yesterday. Firstly it's the acceptance that your child has a disability, knowing where to seek the support. Language is a barrier, not just in the spoken language, but also in the written form as well. And they may not, we talk about translations,

but actually some of those families don't even speak, can't even read and write their own language. And I have heard from our listeners over the past few days, people with PhDs and whatnot, as English as their first language, that have found it hard to navigate some of the paperwork that's involved. But tell me about your daughter. What can I say about her? She's 13, a beautiful, empathetic, kind, funny child. But she has had an awful transition from primary to secondary school.

So she's in year eight now. And year seven was just not what we expected it to be. And as a parent who is a great advocate for other parents, I felt as if I had failed her. Even though I knew the system, I knew the law, I'd been to tribunal twice to get her the right support. And, you know, she's got the almost solid EHCP. It should have all been there for her. But there's just still a lack of understanding in schools. What are you calling for in our last minute, Parveen?

I'm calling for accountability. Accountability from the government and more funding. And more funding? Yeah, not huge reforms. We've got the structure in place, the laws in place. But for South Asian communities too? For South Asian communities, we need to be at the table. We need to be at the table. We need to be at the table

to make strategic decisions. And if we're just tokenistic, I don't think things are going to change. Parveen Merhal, founder of SENSEVA, a Sikh disability charity. One more Voices as we cover SEN.

Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now I want to turn to a new film about part of the incredible life of the photographer Lee Miller.

The film Lee stars Kate Winslet and it opens this week. Miller was a former fashion model. She was a surrealist artist, but she also defied convention to become a female war photographer travelling to the front lines during World War II as a correspondent for British Vogue. Her images are some of the most resting and enduring of the conflict. They include photographs of the Blitz, the horror of the concentration camps at Buchenwald and Dachau.

And Miller is also known for a famous photograph of her bathing in Hitler's bathtub. It was taken by her collaborator, the life photographer, David Sherman. They have a close working relationship that you see also in the film. But becoming a war correspondent as a woman was a far from straightforward path as the film explores. It's directed by Ellen Corris, who has returned to direct this high profile feature film

after a high profile career as a cinematographer. I spoke to Ellen and I asked her what she'd known about Lee Miller before she committed to this film. Having been a photographer and a cinematographer. I spoke to Ellen and I asked her what she'd known about Lee Miller before she committed to this film. Having been a photographer and a cinematographer, I knew a lot about photography. And of course, she was somebody who was not only a surrealist photographer of her time, but also was a role model because she was somebody who would, you know, defy convention, somebody who is experimenting, somebody who, you know, defy convention, somebody who is experimenting, somebody who, you know, was bold, who was a risk taker, somebody who wanted to go out and go from being in front of the camera, she was a model, to going behind the camera,

where she took control of her own image, so to speak, and wanted to be a photographer. So that is a little of the history of her. And I mean, Kate Winslet's performance is amazing as Lee Miller. And we're very much concentrating, the film is all about her experiences in one period of her life, the late 30s and 40s during World War II. But how did you decide with Kate Winslet, who's also a producer on the film,

what image of Lee Miller to give to the world? Well, we knew that we didn't want to show Lee as a muse or someone who was being seen through a man's eyes. You know, we really wanted to show Lee for who she was. And though she exacted a lot of damage during after the war, we didn't want to show her as a damaged woman. We wanted to show her as somebody who was full of life, who was a risk taker, someone who was pushing the envelope, who wanted to tell the truth. She was a truth teller and somebody who took a lot of risk to be able to do that. Do you think a female perspective or a war photographer who's

female has a different perspective than a male war photographer as you were researching Lee and looking at her photographs? I think being a woman he was interested in what was happening to women in the war you know she was she was a war photographer and a war correspondent. But what was unique about her is that when she went to war, she was looking behind the scenes. What was happening to people around the combat? And that was a very unique perspective. Lee Miller is credited with changing photography.

Her work documenting World War II is of great historical importance. And she's had big retrospectives. There was one at the V&A here in London, for example. But some think her contribution might have been forgotten had her son not discovered her archives and promoted her work. The story you tell is in flashbacks. She's seen talking to her son as an older woman.

Tell me a little bit about your thinking of structuring it in that way. Well, we knew that we wanted to not tell this as a biopic. Okay. You know, we really wanted to keep it to a certain period in Lee's life, which kind of captured the essence of her life. And so the fact that we had her photography, that her son, Anthony Penrose, happened to go into the attic of Lee's house soon after she died and discovered this treasure trove of photographs was astounding and an astounding resource for us to have. But the fact that he found that and knew the importance of it and knew that it was important to put her legacy out there, both as an artist, but also what she had accomplished during the war as a war photographer and a

war correspondent. And not only was her attic full of negatives and photographs and snapshots, but also later he ended up finding a whole treasure trove of her wardrobe, you know, perfectly preserved between, you know, perfectly preserved between, you know, beautiful slices of paper. And so that also began to inform what we were doing in the film because we wanted to have, we wanted to maintain a certain kind of authenticity

to the truth, to who she really was. And I do think we step into that world. And it's fascinating, not only her work, obviously photographing in World War II, which at times is also horrific, but there was this huge circle of friends and support. The relationship with Audrey Withers,

for example, the editor of British Vogue, played by Andrea Rysborough, and they found solidarity together. I think kind of interesting as well to see that juxtaposed with the British photographer Cecil Beaton. That is, there's a bit of humour in that too. Yeah, very much so, because Audrey was a can-do kind of person.

You know, she actually, Audrey Withers, who was the editor of Vogue at the time and who worked very, very closely with Lee Miller in being able to bring stories of the war to women in a fashion magazine. And the fact that here you have working in the same office, Audrey, who's a very, you know, sensible, she's kind of a person next to Cecil Beaton. Quite flamboyant. Yeah, very flamboyant, you know, all about the art and very disdainful of Lee because in a way he had a competition with Audrey and with Lee. He was trying to also gain attention. I thought that was interesting as well because Vogue, we think of

as a women's magazine, but even in that female sphere, Lee had to work pretty hard to get recognized, to be given the assignments that she wanted. Very much so. Lee had to struggle to be seen, so to speak, like many other women at the time. Just consider, you know, back in the 30s, when Lee was thriving as a photographer, it was really difficult for women back then, you know, they weren't seen as someone who could be behind the camera, you know, and that's not terribly different from today either, you know, where women have to be have to struggle to be seen and say, I'm legit in my work. Fortunately, the fact that Audrey was so supportive as her editor was a really important relationship to lead to enable her work to be seen

and for it to be published. What about the scene where Lee Miller's collaborator, David Sherman, takes that famous photograph of her in Hitler's bath? If people aren't familiar with it, there's like dirty boots at the side of the bath. She's in Hitler's apartment looking towards the camera. Maybe that sums up her sense of risk and adventure, that particular shot. Yeah, it's the shot of Lee Miller in Hitler's bathtub is one that people remember. It's an iconic shot. And when you think about everything that Lee had gone through up until that point, you know, having just visited the camps, had just seen what the camps were, you know, she was there during the first liberation of Dachau and literally took some of the first images of that camp. So soon after she went to Dachau,

she took Davy to Hitler's apartment and walking through the apartment, wanted to feel who this person was, but ends up coming upon this bathroom and decides, when she feels the water and realizes it's hot, decides that she's going to get in it. The thing about Lee is she always had a sense of not only the real and being present, but she also had a sense of the meaning of things. She understood, you know, the greater meaning. And for whatever

reason that she decided to get into that bathtub, other than practical reasons, you know, you know, we kind of see something that photograph where the dirt of Dachau is on Hitler's pink bath mat. And, you know, she stomps out the dirt on the bath mat purposely and gets in the bathtub. It's quite the scene. And she's directing that. This is your debut feature film as a director. I know you have a wonderful career already. Fashion, style, storytelling, cinematography.

Manny Plod is for your work, collaborating with Spike Lee, Martin Scorsese to name two. Have you always wanted to direct a movie? Actually, I started out as a director many, many years ago. And what happened was that I had taken some classes for a master's at night, having already graduated from university. And I wanted to make films.

I wanted to be a filmmaker who made political films, whether they be feature films or documentaries, but I wanted them to have a strong meaning to them. And in the course of starting to take the camera up myself and filming, then people started seeing what I was doing when I showed them the film. And they said, oh, will you shoot for me? And so that's how I ended up becoming a cinematographer, because I started shooting and I was able to earn a living. And at the time, I was one of the very, very few women cinematographers who was working at the time.

You know, I came back full circle after I finished my film, this film, which took a number of years. And I ended up finishing it and I was nominated for an Academy Award for it and also won the Emmy for it. So I knew then that I could go back into directing. And one other key thing that happened in my life that enabled me to know that I could go back to being a director was I'm almost deaf in one ear. So being a cinematographer for me was a safe place to be. I understand. You know, because I could see what was going on.

I could realize what was going on. And it wasn't until the development of hearing aids changed that I was able to get these incredible new hearing aids that enabled me to hear. And that's why I felt like I could go out and be a director again. So interesting, because I've often heard the argument from my mother and others, though, that just the technology of hearing aids has not come on in the way it has for example for vision or for other issues that we might have yes and it changed my life i'm sure the fact that i could actually hear because as a director you know i wanted to hear everything i wanted to be able to i wanted to create the world and be able to work on the sound

and, you know, hear the dialogue in a way that was not from behind the camera. And I always knew that I wanted to make films, you know, as a director. So after I was able to get these hearing aids, I went back and I started directing. Back in 2010, I started directing back in 2010. I started directing commercials and then I started directing episodic television like Ozark. Oh, yeah, I love that. I did Ozark and I also did, was invited by George Clooney to do Catch-22. And Martin Scorsese asked me to direct the prologue of The Killers of the Flower Moon. You know, so it's been transformative for me.

And also, you know, to be able to have an opportunity to direct a feature film, you know, is a rare and honored position, I would say, you know, and an opportunity. And that's why I think it's important for women that we have opportunity. If we have the opportunity, we can show that we can do it. So that, you know, was really important for me

to have this opportunity to show that we could, you know, could work closely with Kate to help realise, you know, her original idea to make this film. Evan Kouros there, the director of Lee, which is in cinemas this Friday. Thanks Corris there, the director of Lee, which is in cinemas this Friday. Thanks so much

to her. So interesting her journey also with her hearing as she described there. Well, I want to turn back to

last night, last night in the States, I suppose middle of the night really here in the UK and that was the, so far, only scheduled

televised presidential debate in the States ahead of the election in November. Kamala Harris and Donald Trump spoke for 90 minutes, each accusing the other of lying, among other things. We won't know a full poll for another couple of days, really, on whether

the debate made a difference. I did see CNN did a snap poll with all the usual caveats that I put out there. Voters watching suggested that Harris performed better. Other public opinion surveys indicating many Americans

are unhappy with how the Biden administration has handled inflation and the economy. Harris, of course, a key member of that administration as vice president. Women's issues were on the table

for debate, including a heated exchange on abortion. Her vice presidential pick says abortion in the ninth month is absolutely fine. He also says execution after birth. It's execution, no longer abortion because the baby is born is OK. And that's not OK with me. There is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it's born. Madam Vice President, I want to get your response to President Trump. Well, as I said, you're going to hear a bunch of lies, and that's not actually a surprising fact. And I pledge to you, when Congress passes a bill to put back in place the protections of Roe v. Wade as President of the United States, I will proudly sign it into law.

But understand, if Donald Trump were to be reelected, he will sign a national abortion ban. Well, there she goes again. It's a lie. I'm not signing a ban. I'm not signing a ban, says Mr. Trump. Joining me is New York Times columnist

Amanda Taub. Thanks so much for joining us, Amanda. Thanks for having me. Why don't we jump straight into that issue that we were hearing there? Because abortion has been part of this campaign previously with Mr. Biden against Mr. Trump and now Miss Harris. The claim that Harris made, if Donald Trump were to be reelected, he will sign a national abortion ban. But that's not completely true. I think with that, as so many other things, it's pretty difficult to predict what Donald Trump would actually do if he were elected. So he has gone back and forth in the past on his

position on abortion. Obviously, the most significant thing that he did as president was his Supreme Court nominations to fill the seats that eventually helped overturn the Roe v. Wade decision. And so that's really what set the stage for what happened on the debate stage last night, is that because of what happened during Donald Trump's presidency, there is no longer a right to abortion in the United States that has not proved popular with much of the public. And so now Trump is trying to distance himself from that as an issue, including by saying perhaps he wouldn't sign a national ban. And that he would leave limits on abortion access up to the individual states. But I suppose the really interesting part about this is that it was there on centre stage during this so far only televised debate.

How important do you think it is in the mind of voters and whether last night would make a difference when you hear those comments? I think that abortion is a tremendously important issue to voters and particularly to women. Not just because of the access to pregnancy termination, as people tend to think about that specific issue, but because it's had a real ripple effect on women's health care in general in states where there have been abortion bans. So one of the

other things that Harris kind of mentioned in a very glancing way during the debate was a case of a woman who was sent out to a parking lot and basically told to wait for a medical emergency before she could have a miscarriage for before she could have in a sense, in effect, an abortion for a non viable pregnancy. And I think that is the type of issue that has really helped to broaden this as a kind of question for voters beyond what maybe would have even been anticipated before Roe v. Wade was overturned. Anything else strike you when it comes to the woman question? Because I suppose this is the second time I was there actually for the Clinton

Trump debate back in 2016. But I suppose eight years is a long time in politics. Any other issue that struck you that's particularly gender focused? So I think that one of the issues that kind of hung over this debate, but was not addressed as specifically within it was this broader question of how the Trump campaign and particularly his vice presidential pick has framed women's roles in life in public life. That was one of the things that led apparently to Taylor Swift's endorsement of Kamala Harris immediately after the debate. She signed her endorsement, A Childless Cat Lady, which was a reference to what J.D. Vance had said in the past. And do you think Taylor Swift's endorsement or the debate, whether one is more influential than the other in people making their picks, if at all?

I think they're both likely to be influential, but in quite different ways. performance from Joe Biden because the last debate between Biden and Trump had been such a disaster for Biden's campaign and indeed led to him stepping down and Harris taking his place and so her big challenge was really to get on that stage and show that she could be energetic and have answers that seemed very different from Biden's. And she really was able to do that. And so I think that there probably is a subsection of swing voters in the U.S. We've seen this in recent polling who were not happy with Biden specifically, but are kind of up in the air about whether they will vote for Harris or Trump. And so this debate probably did help her

with them. The Taylor Swift endorsement, I think, is probably fairly different because Taylor Swift's biggest appeal is with young women who are a group who already are heavily favoring Harris. But where that, I think, could potentially make a difference is with the emphasis that she placed on voter registration and convincing people to vote early because turnout for that group is actually a much bigger question than which way they go. And the link indeed in her stories about how people could register.

Found it interesting as well, Amanda, maybe a conversation for another time, but that Harris said her and her VP, Waltz, are both gun owners. Another potentially hot topic, of course, when it comes to American politics. But that's for another day. Amanda Tobe, New York Times columnist. Interesting piece, actually, in the Times at the moment about the body language of Kamala Harris and Donald Trump

when it came to last night's debate. Join Anita tomorrow when she'll be speaking to the author, Tracey Chevalier, about her latest novel, The Glassmaker. Also, thanks very much for your messages. Here's one on Send.

I think Katie is the Greta Thunberg of the Send education system. What an articulate and brave girl. Thanks for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4 comes Doe, examining the business behind profitable everyday products

and what they might be like in the future. I'm the entrepreneur, Sam White. In each episode, I focus on things like TVs, hair dryers or vacuum cleaners, hearing firsthand from people who make them. We still make products with DVD player built in. You would be very surprised how many we sell. Then our expert guests choose their favourite game-changing innovations which shape the products and the past

before we follow the money to where they're going next. Think of the TV, 98-inch or 100-inch. Doe makes the mundane marvellous again. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.