Woman's Hour - Caroline Eshghi, Fats Timbo, Malaria drug for babies

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

In the 1970s and 80s, Caroline Eshghi was a young girl living in Bristol, Somerset, and Wiltshire. From the moment she was born until she ran away at the age of 15, Caroline was beaten, burned and starved by her mother. In May this year, Melanie Burmingham was jailed for 20 months for abusing her daughter more than 50 years ago. Caroline tells Krupa Padhy why she is now petitioning for a change to the law around historical cases that only allows a sentence available at the time of offending. The first malaria treatment suitable for babies has been approved for use. We speak to BBC Africa Health Correspondent Dorcas Wangira in Nairobi to find out how this may empower healthcare workers in the battle against the disease that takes the lives of hundreds of thousands of people each year.One of the key measures that Justice Secretary Shabana Mahmood is reported to be considering as part of her Sentencing Bill is a national rollout of drugs that suppress sexual arousal to try and tackle sex offenders. There is currently a working pilot in the South West of England, and several of the clinicians, psychiatrists and forensic psychologists have raised concerns about making such a scheme mandatory. Krupa talks to Don Rubin, Emeritus Professor in Forensic Psychology at Newcastle University, and a consultant to the pilot programme. Fatima Timbo, known as Fats Timbo, is a content creator and comedian who has amassed an incredible 3 million followers on TikTok. Since appearing on TV show The Undateables in 2018, she's also been part of the team bringing us the Paralympics coverage from Paris last year. Born with achondroplasia, a form of dwarfism, she documents her experiences of being - as she describes it - ‘a little person', and now she's sharing her tips for succeeding in a world where it’s difficult to be different in her book Main Character Energy: Ten Commandments for Living Life Fearlessly. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Kripa Patti and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. There is a running thread going through some of our stories this morning on the subject of empowerment. In a moment you'll hear a conversation I had with Caroline Eschke, a woman who was beaten, burned and starved as a child and who sought justice against her mother many decades later. She tells us why she is now campaigning for a change in the law around sentencing guidelines for historical child abuse cases.

And Fats Timbo, she says she's had more than enough experience of people halting her main character flow and it's time to be the hero of her own story. The comedian and TikTok star is joining me in the studio to talk about her new book, Main Character Energy. In the book, which is both a look back at her own life and a self-help guide, she talks about B.B.B. Bullying bounce backs, how she counted the bullying with her own contagious positive energy. We want to hear your stories about how you've done the same. How have you bounced back from the bully?

Maybe you're at school as a young person or in the workplace as an adult. How has that left you feeling? And if you haven't had the chance and could have it now, what would you want to say to that bully months, years or decades later? What would you want them to know or see or learn about you now? You can text the program that number is 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media we are at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp audio note using the number 03 700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found over on our website.

Also on the programme, the first malaria treatment suitable for babies has been approved for use. We cross to Nairobi and speak to our health correspondent there to find out how this may empower healthcare workers in the battle against the disease that takes the lives of thousands of people each year. But we start with that very powerful interview. In the 1970s and 80s, Caroline Eschke was a young girl who grew up in Bristol, Somerset and in Wiltshire. From the moment she was born until she ran away at the age of 15, Caroline was beaten, burned and starved by her mother. In May this year, Melanie Birmingham, which is how Caroline refers to her not as her mother, was jailed for 20 months for abusing her daughter more than 50 years ago. Under current laws, judges can only pass a sentence within the maximum term

available at the time of the offending. Caroline, now an advocate for the NSPCC and a supporter of Childline, has launched a petition calling for this to change. She told me earlier why it's never too late to seek justice and what she hopes her petition will achieve. But she started by telling me more about the abuse she had experienced as a child. I was always very aware from a very young age that I was safe when I was with other people. But as soon as I was on my own with Melanie, Melanie Birmingham,

that's when she would inflict awful physical violence, torture, sadism from emotional, physical abuse. You know, every day you would have that knot of fear. And to sort of put it in context, she'd only have to use a certain tone of voice when I was a small child. And from terror, I would instantly wet myself because I would know what was coming. When I say the abuse started pretty much from a baby, but you know, my earliest memories would have been around toddler age, young infant,

but they sort of stand out because of the horror of it. I can remember a few years ago, I was listening to a seminar where they were talking about how the top psychologists around the world unanimously agree that there isn't the language in any culture, in any language, that fully encapsulates what a child goes through, the horror of it, when they're in a household where abuse is taking place. And that is all of the abuse, you know, whether it's physical violence, emotional violence, the violence of neglect, sexual violence, and I would include grooming in that because they all cause an injury and that injury stays with you throughout your whole life

but you have to then find ways to find healing from that, you have to find resilience from that and it takes decades, it really does take decades to fully face whatever it was that you survived as a child. It is deeply troubling to hear those details. I want to talk about the timeline there. You mentioned it takes decades to even begin healing and it has been decades since you suffered the abuse. What made you decide to go to the police in 2019 and report the abuse that you had suffered as a child? You know you could have said well why didn't you go in your 20s and I think when I was in my 20s I compartmentalized everything that happened to me as the child which I think is quite a normal way to protect yourself. And it was almost like

the child, Caroline, didn't actually exist. And then in my 30s, I was a mum, and being a mum does make you start looking at your own childhood in that sort of bracket of how could that person do that. You stop making excuses for them. In my 40s, I think I was ready to go to the police, but a family member shut me down from doing that. And it did, it stopped me going forward. And I think that's quite common in family, you know, dysfunctional dynamics. People want you to not speak out, not to reveal it, like somehow the shame and the stigma

of being a survivor of child abuse, somehow you should be carried by the victim in silence. So when I was in my 50s, my early 50s, because this has been a very long road journey to get justice, Melanie Birmingham attempted to contact my eldest son. And this horrified me. This was back in 2018. And then a voice that just seemed to get louder and louder, saying, if you, as the adult you are now, were transported back to when you were a child, what would you as the adult be doing? And very sort of loudly in my head it was, I would be holding the person who committed those crimes to account.

So I called the police, but I was fully aware of how hard it is for historical cases to one, be investigated, to be referred to CPS and to then go to court. So I really did feel that it would just be a conversation with Melanie, but what actually came to light, the DCI in charge of the case, started uncovering evidence of key witnesses. The social services, unfortunately, have no record of me, because I had been referred to social services unfortunately had no record of me because I had been referred to

social services. But what she found was a medical record from when I was eight years old, where the school, primary school, had reported me to social services in Bristol because I'd had a beating where I'd had injuries across my face. And a doctor of that time who obviously had checked on me had written a medical note detailing my injuries and that I was a child at risk. And I think that became then the cornerstone of the investigation going forward. Key witness came forward, a child, a fellow nine-year-old. So this was within a year of being on social services books and saw me in swimming lessons, covered in cigarette burns and bruises, and was very aware that I was being sent out in the night, I'd been spotted,

that I didn't have food at that time. So yes, so the case built and built. It was then referred after three and a half years to the Inspector's Board who then referred it on to CPS. And then CPS then pushed it forward to Portsmouth Crown Court for a trial date. Now bearing in mind how many years had passed, you know, it was quite a big journey. And so what was that process of getting it to court like in the end? Bearing in mind we're talking years and that I kept the whole journey very, very private, very small circle of friends who kept my confidence and obviously I would have anonymity in the trial and sort of being aware that Melanie through all her police

interviews, magistrate hearings and Crown Court hearings had denied it, not guilty, denied it. So we got to the first day of trial, there were multiple witnesses, she pled guilty on that first day of trial. And I have to say, what it felt like to me on that day was that it wasn't about any kind of accountability it was just about what was the best option for her so we then went to the sentencing trial which I think happened a couple of months later and in that time is when I found out that the sentencing guidelines for historical child abuse cases, child cruelty category one, the judges can only sentence on the guidelines from when the crimes took place. Even though our

current sentencing guidelines are up to 14 years, the guidelines back in the 70s and 80s and actually up to 2005, the maximum is two years. And when you learnt this information, how did that make you feel? It felt unjust. It felt very unjust. When you think the amount of horror, this isn't like being assaulted once. This is something that spans your whole childhood potentially. You know, 15 and a half years you're talking 6,000 days of living with coercive control because we talk about abuses in domestic abuse cases, this all also happens for children as well. And potentially it was going to be a slap on the wrist and one of the things I was aware of is that Dutch has his own discretion, any

sentence that's two years or less, they can suspend it. And that's exactly what happened. It sort of came away from that feeling, I don't regret the journey because I faced a lot of things and I was able to, well, basically heal from a lot of things, face them fully. It's a very hard thing to do. And I put in an appeal on the Direct.gov site. I only put one line because I genuinely thought it was an empty gesture. But unbeknown to me, there'd been multiple complaints. The Director General agreed that this wasn't correct. And so very quickly quickly we then had the appeals court up in London that had the three judges. I have to say I was blown away by those three judges.

Lord Justice Stuart Smith was the spokesperson for those three judges. Basically fully acknowledged everything that Melanie had done to me. He went through everything, literally everything. And he actually stated that she was incredibly fortunate that the crimes were committed when they were, because she would be looking at a minimum nine years to the maximum 14 years. Yes, and that's been central to you launching this petition. Tell us more about it. Yeah, so the petition, the first start of it was I was approached by the BBC. Fiona Lambdon was incredibly patient with me because I was like, yes, no.

It was a huge cost to me to waive my anonymity. And I just suddenly had an epiphany. I just thought, I'm nearly 60. My children are young adults. And I just thought, if this can help even one person, then I have to do it. I have to do it. You know, I've had quite a response. I've had so many

messages from people who've gone through similar. I am working through those responses. It will take me time because it's important that everyone feels heard. But one of the things that came through was people saying, I thought I was the only one, I thought it only happened to me and I think because people keep it silent, because you're very isolated when it is happening, you do feel like it's just you and one of the things I have learned over these years is just how prolific it actually is. The lengths abusers will go to, to continue what they're doing,

but also to keep it hidden. And the stigma and shame that a child has keeps them alive when they're a child in survival mode. But that very mechanism as an adult can be very, very destructive. Those feelings as an adult, you mentioned shame, you mentioned stigma. Can you describe the impact the abuse has had on your adult life and how has it felt opening up later in life about those very difficult details? Well I've been incredibly fortunate. For the past 10 years I've had a sequence of incredible talking therapists. You know when I look back I can reflect back how it has impacted negatively, you know the

self-sabotage in my 20s, you know fighting depression in my thirties. But I've also had a lot of joy because my children gave me the gift of being their mum and there was incredible healing in that because through their joy and having a normal childhood that is in itself is incredibly healing. Good friends, my cousins as well, being very supportive but life is hard, we all know this, you could have ups and downs, your paths can cross with toxic people, your paths can cross with bullies, so your resilience to dealing with that is going to be very different, it's going to cut deeper. I call it like the ready-bred glow. I don't know

you're probably too young to remember there used to be these ads where kids used to go to school with like a amber glow around them and I always think children who've grown up in a loving supportive home they have the ready-bred glow and they know exactly who they are. They can be quite resilient. But when you're a survivor you kind of have to sort of build that ready-bred glow for yourself and it does take decades and I think this is another part if I can go back to the petition. Because the law didn't change till 2005, it means a survivor breaking free from the horror, say in, I don't know, 2003, and then they will be on a healing journey that

potentially will take decades, means that they won't be ready to report to the police till another two decades from now and potentially those sentencing guidelines will have moved on again as the law then starts recognizing even more the impact of child abuse, that life sentence that person has to carry like a heavy burden of the trauma wound. The same rules will apply if they don't change them. That person will then again, if it makes it into court again, will only be facing two years. Our thanks to Caroline Eschke for sharing her story with us and if you've been

impacted by anything you've heard in our conversation you can go to the BBC Action Line page where you'll find links to support. And in response to Caroline's case and her petition for the law to change, a Ministry of Justice spokesperson said, it takes immense courage to speak out and we commend Caroline for doing so. Courts must sentence offenders according to the law in place at the time the offense occurred, but judges can still consider the full seriousness of the harm caused in setting punishments. We also approached Bristol City Council and a spokesperson said the events described by

Caroline are awful and should never be in an environment any child has to experience. Whilst we cannot answer for a council and social services regime that no longer exists, we are pleased to see that Caroline has received some form of justice but recognise that this does not remove the impact of the abuse experienced as a child. Every effort to support the police in their investigations has been taken and should any further support be required we will again fully engage with that process. Thank you to Caroline again. Now we need your input because Listener Week is coming up. That's right, the week where we hand the reins of our programme over to you. Some of you may recall the work of Thatcher's

Daisy and her wife Anna who were working across roofs in Devon. The amount of bugs and butterflies and birds we get to see from up here is yeah lovely. A lot of the older generation males I just don't think they understand it when they see us up here. You can see their brain ticking and they just they don't really understand but then it can yeah it can go the other way can't it and a lot of single females would probably rather have us on the roof for whatever reason. Well they gave us a fascinating insight into a world many of us know nothing about. If there is something that you are doing that you think we'd love to hear about do get in touch in

the usual way. You can text WomensHour on 84844 on Instagram and on X. You'll find us at BBC WomensHour and of course you can email us through our website and we are also keen to hear from you today on how you've bounced back from a bully. What would you say to that bully now? If you could, if you could just come face to face with them, what would you say? Do get in touch just like this listener has done who writes that when I was at school girls tried to bully me many times because I was a little different. I was a foreigner but more importantly because I just didn't care what they thought. My parents always brought me up to believe that other people's opinions don't matter. I think it would be a

useful lesson at school for teachers to teach children but if others try to bully them or put them down they should understand that it is because those people are broken in some way themselves and feel the need to lash out. Please do get in touch with your stories about bouncing back from a bully. It's one of the world's deadliest diseases but now the first malaria treatment suitable for babies and very young children has been approved. It is expected to be rolled out in Africa within weeks. Dorcas Wangira is the BBC's Africa Health correspondent based in Nairobi. She gave me more context on the disease

and how many lives are lost to it. Malaria is a deadly disease. There are countries in Africa where it is considered a rite of passage. I remember when I was growing up, children would always have malaria, adults would have malaria, particularly in areas that were in the western part of Kenya, areas near swamps, where it was hot and wet, and there were perfect conditions for mosquitoes to breed. In Africa, malaria kills children, it kills adults. Globally, according to the World Health Organization, in 2023, there were an estimated 263 million cases of malaria and almost 597,000 related deaths. The saddest part is that

almost all of them were in Africa and children under the age of five accounted for three in every four malaria deaths in the regions. Now when it comes to newborns and young infants Lancet Global Health estimates that there are 30 million babies born in areas where they are at risk of malaria in Africa alone. I'm really interested in your use of the phrase right of passage. This sounds like malaria is almost normalised in some communities. Yes, I remember when I got malaria the first time, funny enough I was an adult, I was 19 years old. However, I used to see children get it almost always. And people used to think the children I grew up with would think that I'm an adult, I was 19 years old. However, I used to see children get it almost always.

And people used to think the children I grew up with would think that I'm an anomaly, that you don't have malaria. But I would tell them it's because I grew up in the capital, Nairobi, most of the times, so it wasn't endemic or it didn't usually spread there. But there are other places where the story is much worse. So it's very common. It's spread by mosquitoes. And there's this very common phrase that if you go to bed with a mosquito, it's very tiny, but the kind of

noise it makes. And when it bites you, the disease that you get, it's not as small as the insect itself. So it's very prevalent across Africa and West Africa, countries like Nigeria, the Ivory Coast, the Gambia, even here in Malawi, Tanzania. It's very prevalent across Africa, in West Africa, countries like Nigeria, the Ivory Coast, the Gambia, even here in Malawi, Tanzania. It's very prevalent. It spreads very fast because of the conditions for mosquitoes to breed. But then also in terms of the medicines, how fast you can get treatment. One of my worst experiences as a journalist. In 2015, I was covering Western Kenya. There was a day where I witnessed 48 children die of malaria in a ward. And it was really devastating because most of these children were being brought to the hospital when it was already too late.

Many of them had developed severe anemia. There was very little blood available. There was no blood bank in that county. So these children died and their parents didn't take it seriously up until it was at the very last stage. So the saddest part is that the most vulnerable children, pregnant women, are the ones who have the most severe outcomes, however many people do get this disease. Before we turn to the latest developments with the treatment, ordinarily what kind of treatment would people turn to in these communities? Well, so the available treatments are always tablets, administered in tablet forms, but there are also other forms of treatment. There are also injectable

treatments. However, what we have experienced, what we have seen health experts have recorded is resistance. You have like the malaria becoming, the mosquitoes are becoming, they're also evolving. You have anopheles defensi, which is a species that is now becoming common. It was not originally found in Africa. The type of malaria it spreads is very different.

So malaria is caused by different parasites and they're spread through mosquitoes. So there's Plasmodium vivax, Plasmodium falciparum. So depending on the kind of malaria you get and the drug that is available, so sometimes you may be given a drug that does not treat the kind of malaria you have, or you find people underdosing or overdosing. So if you underdose and then it becomes harder to treat. I personally experienced the malaria which had to becomes harder to treat. I personally experienced

the malaria which had to be treated five times. I took one drug, it didn't work. The second drug, the third drug up until I had an injection treatment. What about babies specifically? What would they in the current setup, what resources would they have to help them get better? Yes, and that's a very important question. One of my favorite quotes from a child, a pediatrician, a nephrologist is that children are not small adults and babies are not small children. So it doesn't mean that what will work for an adult will work for a child or what will work for a regular child will work for an infant or a newborn baby. So what we

have seen is that when children get malaria from an early age, over the age of six months up to one year, most of the time they're given medication. But this medication should be given ideally based on your weight, not just the age. So for instance, you look at how heavy is this child and then that will determine the dosage. Because you can find a child who is severely malnourished and weighs like a newborn, you know, in fragile context like in South Sudan what we are seeing or in Sudan, we have very malnourished babies. So a child may be two kilograms but is like two years old. So now what has been happening, they've been taking drugs and then crashing them, crashing the tablets and then giving them to small babies. So I was speaking to a nurse who didn't know she

once when her baby was ill, she gave the baby quinine, a quinine tablet, crushed it. And unfortunately, the child started getting worse, you know, and even the skin was becoming dehydrated. And when she looked at the leaflet, she realized that she had overdosed this child. So that has been the problem and that is what has made it necessary to develop a treatment specifically for newborns and infants below the age of six months. And now we've got this breakthrough with this malaria treatment for babies. Tell us more about it. Yes, so Coatum baby is the name that it has been given and this is a new treatment for newborns and also infants. So clinical trials were carried out in eight African countries

including Kenya, Tanzania, Nigeria, Cote d'Ivoire and rarely are babies below the age of six months included in clinical trials. One of the experts from the Gambia's Director of Medical Research Unit in the Gambia did say that neonates and young infants, their liver function is immature. So they metabolize these medicines differently. So they were keen when they were carrying out the trials to see what do these young infants need. And also because I mentioned earlier that they're the smallest, they're the most vulnerable. So the trials were looking at how is this going to react in this children, what is the level of toxicity? And also, is it effective in treating malaria? And most of those trials were successful. And now we are seeing that the Swiss, Swiss Medic has approved it. It is Switzerland's drug regulator. And what we are hoping to see is rapid approval

or quick approval in these African countries within the next 90 days. So this sounds like it could be a real game changer. Definitely does. What was even more interesting, I remember people asking, do babies get malaria? And that's a very, very common question. And it's even a misconception across Africa. While I did say malaria is very common, but there is this general assumption that newborns

have an immunity to malaria because it is spread by mosquitoes. So there are two mothers we spoke to, one in Enugu, Nigeria, and she's a mother of three. Her last born, when she had her baby delivered, her last born, the baby started getting sick. And then when the baby was diagnosed, they told her that she had malaria. And her first reaction when we interviewed her is that she was shocked to discover that the baby had malaria. And she said that she didn't realize it could affect newborns. And the treatment was administered, but that was last year. Another mother in Kenya told us the exact same thing, is that I didn't think babies

could get malaria. So in this context, newborns. So it is very important because, and I believe that it's not that they do not get it, it's that the treatment is not there, or even how children die of other causes and people assume it's not properly diagnosed. So this is a breakthrough, not just because of the science and the availability of the medication, but that understanding that this is a disease that newborns get because they have been left out of trials for a very long time that this intervention is there. And most importantly, one child's death is a death to many.

If we keep using what we are using right now, we are seeing a lot of overdosing, a lot of toxicity among babies, a lot of off-label use for certain drugs. So now this is very important. And also what is equally important is also the healthcare workers being informed and even the mothers themselves so that they know that newborns are not immune to malaria and they can be treated as it should. It sounds like there's quite a bit of work to be done when it comes to trickling down not just the treatment but the information as well. Yes you know we say in healthcare prevention is always better than cure so

preventing malaria in the first place, but you're right, just being aware of what there is, what isn't there, and also knowing that we evolve over time. I know when the malaria vaccines were introduced, were approved in 2021 and slowly introduced in African countries, there is some sense of being overwhelmed because people are like, how many shots will my baby get? Now there's another drug. But what makes this very important is that it is treatment. So it is important that when should, hopefully not, but should your newborn get malaria, should your infant below the age of six months get malaria, that there

is a better treatment. And I know that this will save many lives. Thanks to Dorcas Wangira, the BBC's Africa correspondent. The Justice Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, is going to present her sentencing bill this week and one of the key measures she's expected to bring forward according to the Times is a national rollout of drugs that suppress sexual arousal to try and tackle sex offenders. She is reportedly also going to consider making the medication mandatory for paedophiles and other sex offenders and making them a condition of their parole licence. Now there is currently a working pilot in the South West of England and several of the clinicians, psychiatrists and forensic psychologists have raised concerns about making

such a scheme mandatory. Well here to discuss it with me is Don Gruben, emeritus professor in forensic psychiatry at Newcastle University and a consultant to the pilot program. Welcome. Hello. This pilot scheme referred to as medication to manage problematic sexual arousal. It's currently being offered to sex offenders in several prisons, but can you just explain how a scheme like this actually works? Well, these are men that are having difficulties managing their arousal, which is an important contribution to their offending. It's important to recognize that in most cases, that's not what's responsible for a sex offender's offenses.

There's a range of reasons why they choose not to manage their arousal, but they're capable of doing it if they want to. But there are a small group of men whose arousal, either because their sex drive is very high or because they have high levels of sexual preoccupation that they find it difficult to manage and this program is aimed at them. You as clinicians and experts in the field, for you language matters, you don't use the term chemical castration. Why is that? Well, we noticed that the Justice Secretary also did use that term, and it's something that the press is very keen on using in headlines.

There's a number of reasons why we don't like it. I mean, firstly, it suggests that this is about punishment rather than having anything to do either with reducing risk or treating a health indication in these men. But perhaps more importantly, there are two other reasons. I mean one, if you're telling somebody that they're going to be castrated there's probably not a good advertisement for them to come forward for treatment. But the other reason is that the majority of drugs that we use don't have the effect that castration would have, which is lowering the male hormone testosterone to very low levels. We use other drugs which don't do that, but it risks confusing them

with those that do, which have a much higher side effect profile and make sexual functioning difficult altogether. With those considerations in mind, how effective do you think this kind of scheme is in your opinion? Well if it's voluntary we believe it's going to be very effective. We're not treating to reduce risk, we're treating because there's a health indication that we believe is necessary for these men. Reduction in risk is almost certainly a side effect and a good side effect but it's not what we're trying to do. And as I said earlier, if your view is that problematic sexual arousal is an important

contributor to offending in some men, by reducing that, the likelihood is that you're going to reduce the risk of reoffending. And so your concerns specifically about such a program potentially being made mandatory, what are the drawbacks in your opinion? Well there's a number of reasons why we don't like the idea of mandatory prescribing. In the first instance these men all have capacity to make decisions, decisions about what sort of medication they're going to use but also decisions about their behavior and whether they're going to offend or not.

In those cases, it's really up to the criminal justice system to manage them rather than relying on psychiatrists and medication to do so. But again, perhaps more importantly, if you were to make this mandatory, it would relate to only a very, very small group of offenders who are labeled as being highly dangerous. But the majority of offenders, therefore, wouldn't be eligible for this sort of medication, but the majority of offenses are going to come from that much larger group. So if you're looking to reduce risk, reduce reoffending, by making it mandatory, you're narrowing the net of those who will come forward for medication

until you've been medicating. So you'll be missing an opportunity to reduce risk in the vast majority of sex offenders who this might be appropriate for. And therefore the potential for a national rollout, would you say, I mean I'm guessing you think that's not a good idea? Well we think a national rollout is an excellent idea because we think that these clinics and the medication is a very helpful component in management along with psychological treatment. What we don't think is a good idea is making

medication mandatory. Is this already in practice in other countries? Well we say in practice you mean mandatory prescribing. It is in a small number of countries and a number of states in America. There's very little data in relation to them, but what is clear is that it's being prescribed for a very small number of men in those areas. As I said, you're missing the larger group, which will give you much bigger bang for your buck in terms of reducing risk. And what about this being used in a preventative manner almost to try and get to the individual before a crime is committed?

Yeah, I mean that's also something that would be very helpful. I don't know that you could do that through the criminal justice system but certainly we have experiences of men coming to their general practitioners to report difficulties in managing their behavior and if clinics like this were available they would be able to refer into them for treatment. Of course we don't know whether they may have already offended or not but again it might be preventative or it might be stopping further offending. Don Gruben from Newcastle University and a consultant to this pilot program thank you for your time. We did ask for a

statement and a Ministry of Justice spokesperson said the government is determined to tackle sexual offenders criminality. We are extending a pilot which examines how medication can prevent problematic sexual arousal in sex offenders with the aim of a nationwide rollout and carefully considering whether this could be made mandatory. You might be watching the Euros at the moment, the UEFA women's football tournament is well underway. Wells and England play again tomorrow night in what would be crucial fixtures for both teams. Well last week, Nula spoke to the

DJ and author, Annie McManus, about her love of the game and how the Lionesses win in 2022, encouraged her to take up playing again. She asked Annie how she felt returning to the pitch in her 40s. I was breaking it. Because I hadn't played football,

like since I was 11, really, I hadn't played in any sort of competitive football situation. I had kicked about in the park with my kid. That was it. So I was really nervous and I didn't know how I would be and I didn't know how it would feel. And it was so inclusive and so inviting. And there was women from the ages of 40 all the way up into their mid 60s. I was like, I have to do this. I just I know it now. It feels like coming home, like I have to do this.

Tasted it. Yeah. How was playing that first match? I'll never forget it. I remember being in the changing rooms beforehand, being given my shirt and literally trying not to cry. I mean, I was such a saddo. But what was that behind that? It was so emotional.

It was the feeling of being in a team, like being part of something big like that. It just felt for some reason it felt quite profound to be one of the girls. I don't often allow myself to feel I'm Irish, to feel proud. You won't be getting notions or getting above your station. God help us get notions. But I do feel proud. And it's because it's not it's not just me. I feel proud of my team.

I feel proud to be part of that team. It's been So life-changing in so many ways like on a physical level to feel really Rejuvenated, you know in my body and to feel a whole new sense of gratitude to be able to play football I hate that the whole thing like for your age. Oh that you're can't believe you're doing that at your age But I feel young because of it. Do keep an eye out for our coverage of the women's euros as that comes up and you'll hear that full interview by looking back on BBC Sounds for the Women's Hour episode from the 2nd of July. Do not miss a program. Now my next guest Fatima Timber, she's just settling

in known as Fat's Timber. She's a content creator and comedian who's amassed an incredible 3 million followers on TikTok. She was born with achondroplasia, a form of dwarfism and Fats documents her experiences of being, as she describes it, a little person. And after first appearing on our TV screens in the Undateables back in 2018, last year she was part of the channel for a team bringing us the Paralympics coverage from Paris now she's sharing her tips for succeeding in a world where it's difficult to be different in her book main character energy ten commandments for living life fearlessly and that's

joins me in the studio now welcome very good to have you here all about that well let's That was very good. There you go. All about that. Well, let's still talk all about that. Tell us about the title of your book. Where does that main character energy title come from? And what does it mean to you? That title actually came from social media. It became popular and I just

resonated with that title. I just resonated with that saying. And I thought, you know, what am I going to name this book when I wrote it? And I thought to myself, main character energy is the one that I want to title it. And I think what was so important about that title is that it reminds people that they need to take ownership of their own narrative and their own lives and to stop being background characters and just be that person they've always wanted to be. So it just captures what I want people to be in their own lives so yeah it was

perfect for it. Being a main character in your story it's not always easy is it when you are in the face of adversity of bullying and you encountered so much bullying growing up how difficult was that? It was extremely difficult growing up with that. Sometimes I get flashbacks about it but I know that I've come through the other side. During that time when I was going through it I didn't realize like how much it affected me because I was very depressed I didn't want to be seen outside because I knew the attention that I'd get the negative attention that I get because of my dwarfism so almost like wearing a funny costume sometimes and it's just stressful

being that and then in school kids not understanding what my condition is that I can't grow as fast as them. Kids making fun out of how I look on a daily basis constantly. It really weighs on you and it weighs on your self-esteem and the way you look at yourself sometimes in the mirror, it just makes you feel very ugly and that's what I felt all the time. But I knew with the love that my parents gave me that I wasn't ugly, I wasn't unlovable, I wasn't all of these things. I had friends as well that supported me, you know, but it was just the constant It was just constant. I just couldn't I didn't have a switch off button to the bullying. So I just yeah It was really really hard extremely hard and you talk quite openly in the book about specific incidences one being

Three boys putting you into an industrial waste bin Yeah, how do you deal with situations that extreme? All bullying is difficult but situations like that take it to another level of aggression. Extremely difficult to be honest because I didn't know that no one expects that to happen to you and it just made me feel like I was trash, I was a waste of space and I didn't deserve to be here. And that was their intention of course because they thought it was funny and for me it was just, it took me a long time to recover from that

incident as well mentally because for a long time I just felt like how can somebody, how can people be so cruel? So, but at the same time it was just yeah trying to get through it and trying to tell myself that I am worth something, I can be confident just because I've had that incident happen to me. Doesn't mean that I am trash like I always used to think. You got through it through something called BBB, bullying bounce backs. Yes. Yes.

Tell us about bullying bounce backs. Bullying bounce back is basically rising above, which is one of my commandments. It's saying to yourself that, okay, yeah, this person has said so and so to me, or they can name call me, but I need to remember who I am and bounce back from it and be resilient. It's all about teaching resilience as well,

because I think a lot of people struggle with that. It's hard to bounce back from adversity and negativity, but the only person that can do it for yourself is yourself. And I teach a lot about that in the book that because it's something that I think people think it's going to be, you know, outside, something that they can acquire from outside, but it from within inside yeah it comes from inside and that's the best confidence that's the best bounce back you could ever get in your life you know it's just teaching that resilience from adversity that's that's the main thing it's something though that almost needs to come when you're ready in its own time right exactly when you're

ready but it has to be a decision to be made because sometimes people think it's something that will just come, but it's a conscious decision that you need to make to yourself and commit to it as well. Once you commit to it, it's something that you can't go back from and it's like going to the gym, right? You can come back from it. You can come back from it, but I'm just saying like, if you want the results, if you want the results, you have to stay committed. So I said, I made that conscious decision that I'm going to, I want to be confident.

I want to be, I want to get out of my comfort zone. I want to be a different person to who I used to be, that depressed person that felt like a victim all the time. So when I started modeling and started doing all these things that kind of helped me build my confidence and going out of my comfort zone, I was so uncomfortable at first because I was just used to just being sheltered or just being at home or where no one could hurt me.

When you expose yourself in that way, it like wow okay yes I'm gonna face even more adversity but it's gonna make me stronger it's gonna make me an even stronger person that than I am so I've had a lifetime of it and I think I'm just if I can give a smidge of that to people, that would be great. We have been asking our listeners to send in their examples of when they bounced back from a bully. Cathy says, when I was a teen, I lived near a playground. Each time I came out, a group of boys would ridicule me. I thought this cannot go on. So I waited till they were assembled in the playground and I turned to the main perpetrator. I named him and said, I know you fancy me, but unfortunately I don't

fancy you. It felt brilliant and I was never ridiculed again. Thank you, Cathy, for sharing. And this message says, I was bullied by teachers in my primary and secondary schools because of my family circumstances, including being told I wouldn't amount to anything academically and university wasn't for people like me. Fast forward a few decades and via a highly circuitous route I now have academic qualifications from Russell Group universities including a PhD. Success is the best revenge. And on that some of these bullies since you've had such wonderful success they've been in touch with you yes of course they have because they've messaged me on Instagram and message me saying oh you know you're doing amazing

now or one of them actually said oh you look very beautiful and I said wow do you don't remember bullying me and they they said, well, I was young. So I was like, I guess you were young. Yes, young and dumb. But it still was very horrible how they treated me. They even got, they're the ones that got expelled from school from cyber bullying me. So yeah, it shows that, you know, people definitely regret what they do, the negativity that they cause people. And when those that have been bullied, especially if they bounce back from it, it shows that like they can be a strong, you can be a stronger person afterwards, and you can face so much adversity and

still be that resilient person that you've always wanted to be in life so it's crazy how that the world works in them serious ways and I remember my mum saying this to me all the time that you know please ignore them please just keep just keep being you and just keep putting your head forward and focus, be tunnel vision and yeah, you will get to where you want to be and I'm really grateful for my parents' encouragement because without them I honestly don't know where I'd be. And your own parents have gone through their own hardships, they separately left the Civil

War in Sierra Leone, they met here in the UK and they've obviously been a central force in your life, specifically the women, you've spoken about coming from a family of unstoppable women. Oh yeah, absolutely, I've got four sisters, so we're just queens, absolute mega forces and honestly, I just, with their encouragement, with their force for life and will to just live, it's just amazing to be around. I can't be a victim because I'm with them. I can't feel sorry for myself because they just push through in life and they're such

ambitious, hardworking women that I have. So two of my sisters, they have five children and you know, they're just amazing. It's a busy house. It's a very busy house. And you also mentioned your grandma who can't stop moving, which leads me on to your dancing as well, because it was during the pandemic you were fired from accountancy from the firm that you were working at. I imagine that didn't go down too well with the parents? No, it didn't.

Because they said, what are you going to do? And I said, I want to make this content thing work. And they said, OK, well, you've got like a month to show us. And I did. Whenever you give me a task, I always get it done. And you treated it like a business. You analyzed trends. You looked at the videos that had done really well.

You approached it like a real job. Exactly that, I did. I looked at how trends would work in. I was looking at what's doing the best. And at the time, I saw that comedy was doing really well. And I was contemplating for a while, do I do comedy as well? And I said to myself, do you know what? I am funny.

I need to show my funny side. I know people have seen my dancey side, my modeling side, but they need to see the comedic side of me. So when I started doing that, it literally blew up. Like it just, TikTok was blowing up. It was insane. And it encouraged me and made me feel like, you know what, I've got an audience to appease now.

I need to start pumping out more. And it just, I started coming out with more ideas and trying to execute them. Yeah. I just thought I need to create this path for myself. I don't know what's happening. I'm just building and seeing where it goes. That was pretty much it. And I know that you've experienced the dark side of social media, but it's like

you've used comedy to counter that as well. Yeah, absolutely. So I do get a lot of hate comments. And at first it was hard to deal with because it was so constant and all so much. But what I've realised is, I said to myself, well, if I've had a lifetime of people bullying me to my face, what's words going to do? Like, you know, it's, I'm more, I'm on a bigger platform where more people see me.

So of course I'll get more hate. So I was thinking about it more logically, like, okay, I'm getting 100 or 99, let's say 99 positive comments and one negative one. Why should I feel upset? You know, so I just had to keep reasoning with myself to really try not getting my head about it because for the first year it was hard to deal with.

I was just thinking about it all the time, the mean comments, but I just had to realize, no, they can't stop. Did you ever doubt yourself? A lot, a lot. And I talk a lot about doubt as well, like imposter syndrome, how am I getting all these opportunities after being on social media? But it's because I'm exposed

myself and represented for so many people that are underrepresented and I'm doing something that's so almost unheard of. So the best way to get over imposter syndrome is explaining in your mind to yourself that you deserve to be here. Whether it's a job that you've always dreamt of being in and you're like how am I here? You have to understand you've been picked, you are the chosen one. There is so much I want to get through in the last two minutes of the program. You mentioned the word platform and wanting to be a voice for people who don't have a voice. So I want to ask you a question about being a disability campaigner because

as we've been seeing last week, the government got through its plans to shake up of the benefit system and it was a close run vote which forced the government to make concessions and it looked to limit eligibility for the personal independent payments which is the main disability payment in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. What are your thoughts on this recent bill? I think it's quite horrible. I don't think it's fair at all because they don't understand what it's like to have disabilities and the extra cost that it causes, especially those that can't walk as far, those that have to adjust clothes or those that have to make

adjustments and there's added financial cost to it. But if they're judging it based off what they think is their definition of a disability, which is wrong in itself, then a lot of people are going to be in hot water and a lot of people are going to be going through a lot basically and I don't think it's right, I don't think it's okay. Even the system itself right now wasn't the best but they're going to make it even harder. So it worries you. A DWP spokesperson has said we are delivering one at one of the biggest and most ambitious packages of welfare reforms in a generation supporting those who can work into jobs and putting the

system on a sustainable footing so it's always there for those who need it. In 30 seconds you are planning a wedding. Yes. How's that going? It's going amazing. I'm gonna be getting married next month. Yeah, and Most things are in place and I just can't wait to just walk down the aisle holding my dad's hand and just a proud man You've been dancing practicing those dance moves me and Alan. We're gonna be we've practiced our first dance So that's gonna be spectacular and that's gonna be on tick-tock. Yes, it's gonna be on to it's gonna be everywhere Everyone's gonna see the wedding. It's gonna be amazing and I cannot wait to just call in my husband. Thank you so much Fats Timbo for joining us this morning in On Women's Hour and Fats book Main Character Energy

is out now. As ever the conversation continues over on our social media pages on Instagram and Twitter. Do keep the conversation going and do join us for more Woman's Hour tomorrow at 10am. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm David Runciman and from BBC Radio 4 this is Postwar. From the cradle to the grave they said. 80 years on we're telling the story of the 1945 election and the creation of Postwar Britain. There must be a revolution in our way of living. This is the Britain that many of us grew up in and which still shapes an idea of who we

think we are. Even Winston Churchill thrown it. All right, you may have won the war, but you're going to win the peace. Post-war with me, David Runtzman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Can we have the Britain we desire?