Woman's Hour - Caster Semenya, King's Speech, Jude Rogers on Kirsty MacColl

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

Caster Semenya is one of the most decorated athletes of her generation but she is also one of the most scrutinised. The South African shot to fame in 2009 after winning the 800 metres at the World Championships in Berlin. Her performance was so astonishing it was met with questions about her sex and gender, with some asking publicly if she was really a woman. Caster's career, for all its highs, has been defined by a battle between her and the sport's governing body World Athletics about her right to compete. Caster joins Emma to discuss her career as she releases her new book A Race to be Myself. Kirsty MacColl wrote and sang some of the most iconic pop songs of the eighties and nineties. She tends to be remembered best for Fairytale of New York, and for her untimely death in 2000. However, as a comprehensive new box set of her work, See That Girl, demonstrates, her influence and importance as an artist extends far beyond this. Music journalist Jude Rogers wrote an essay for the box set, and joins Emma in studio.This morning, we'll have the first King's Speech in more than 70 years. In this morning's speech, the King is expected to include around 20 bills, focusing on criminal sentencing and smoking, among other things. A bill to change the leasehold system is also expected to be included. The BBC's Iain Watson gives us a run through of what to expect and Jo Darbyshire from the National Leasehold Campaign joins Emma to discuss why they want the leasehold system to be scrapped.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today I can welcome an athlete who has let her running do the talking and rarely gives interviews. But Kasta Semenya's story is one many others have told for her over the years and now she wants to tell it herself. She's my first guest on Woman's Hour today and while you may remember her for winning gold medals at the Olympics, you'll probably also remember the leaking of her private medical records after she was required to take a test by a sports governing body to prove she was a woman. Also on today's programme, we'll bring you what you need to be listening out for in the King's speech, his first in post, in terms of the government's legislative programme and one of the female campaigners who can claim some success. And the unmistakable voice of Kirstie McColl there. But why did such a brilliant lyricist have more commercial success

singing other people's songs? As a new box set is released of her work, the music journalist Jude Rogers will be here paying tribute to her talent. And speaking of days, as we heard in that song, how incredible is the news about breast cancer today? Hopefully affording many more women many more days with their loved ones as a drug already in use for treating breast cancer is now approved for those women with a family history to take as a preventative option. Of course, there'll be complications and issues and side effects and all those things to talk about. And we will do that, we hope, with some detail.

But I did also want to use this opportunity on this day to mark that by saying that as a breakthrough, but also say to you that if you are deemed eligible to go on that particular journey to take that drug, we would love to hear from you. We would love to follow your story. Do get in touch with us here, 84844. That's the number you need to text the programme. On social media, we're at bbcwomansout.

Or email me through the website. You know I like to hear from you. Or you can choose to send a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number you need for that 03700 100 444. So do get in touch. And as ever, anything else you hear on today's programme, please feel free to make yourself heard. But sitting in front of me here in the Women's Hour studio, I can't say this very often, a two-time Olympic champion, three-time world champion.

In 2016, she won the 400, 800 and 1500 metre titles at the South African National Championships in the space of just one afternoon. I don't know if that makes you feel rather lazy, I know I do. But Kasta Semenya is one of the most decorated athletes of her generation, but she's also one of the most scrutinised. The South African shot to fame in 2009 after winning the 800 metres at the World Championships in Berlin, aged 18, with astonishing speed. But what happened next was extraordinary. Her private medical records were leaked after she was required to take a test to prove she was a woman. since Castor's career, for all its highs, has been defined by a battle between her and World Athletics, the sports governing body, about her right to compete.

She was born with differences of sexual development, or DSD, as it's sometimes referred to, a term that refers to varying genetic conditions, and in Castor's case means she has an elevated level of testosterone. As the rules currently stand, and they have changed a few times, this means she cannot compete in any track events without taking testosterone-reducing drugs, something she's previously done, to devastating effects on her health. World Athletics has said it is only

interested in protecting the female category, and that if we don't, quote, women and young girls will not choose sport. Kassia Semenya has had many fans around the world, but also one in Nelson Mandela, the late South African president, in fact, telling her to shut up and run. And until recently, we rarely heard from her in interviews. But today, I'm delighted she joins me here in the Woman's Hour studio to coincide with the launch of her new book, The Race to Be Myself. Kassia Semenya, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here.

And as I say, it isn't often I have Olympic champions sitting in front of me. And I just want to start with a moment of joy, if I can, because when you are successful, you do something that is called, or you call the Cobra. What do you do and where did that come from? How do you celebrate? My celebration, I think it comes from my childhood. You know, I grew up in rough circumstances. And, you know, I grew up in the bush. I've always

hunted. So it's a combination of, you know, eagle, cobra, obviously, with my strength, you know, I flex, you know, it's those feasts, and then I dust the shoulders. So, yeah, only if you're a hunter, you'll understand what I'm talking about. But, you know, nonetheless, that's what defines me. The strength in me, you know, the positivity and everything. So, yeah. It's quite a good thing. I really like the shoulder bit. Of course.

The shoulder one says I'm untouchable, you know. When an eagle goes for anything deadly, of course. They're going to get it. It's great. I'm always fascinated as well with athletes, how they have superstitions and they have to do the same thing each time and how they develop those rituals and where they come from. So it's good to be able to ask you.

But where did, I know you were keen on football as well growing up, but where did running come from? And when did you realise you were pretty good at it? I've always been a fast kid. You know, you work at seven months. You've been running around, you know, at age of four, playing football, you know, on the dead, you know, grounds, you know, dusty places. But I think running comes just within. My dad used to be a good, you know, footballer.

He used to be a good runner. My mom played a good netball. So I think it's genetic, you know. But with me, I've always been that, you know, young girl who has always, you know, wanted to challenge herself. Always experimental in terms of, you know, testing, you know, my skills, my abilities

into all sporting codes. You name them all. I played baseball. I was keen to be a boxer. I liked martial arts. So I would say it just runs into my blood. But when I discovered that I can run, I just said, you know what, if my idols can do that, why not me?

So I tried from age of six when I first stepped my foot into school. And since ever then, it was all about football, running. Then when I was in grade, you know, standard in South Africa, that's what we call. I was in high school. When I was in grade nine, that's when I decided, you know what? I want to do this thing, you know, take it seriously. See where it will take me because, you know,

soccer, it's a team sport. I don't know how long it will take me to become a world champion or, you know, hold a World Cup trophy, especially in football. It may never happen, but with athletics, I see it's something that takes me far. I can travel. I make my own decisions. I don't blame anyone. When I win, I win. When I lose, I go back to the dream box and fix.

And fortunately, I got people around me who advised me, you know, take me through, you know, the knowledge of how what it takes to become, you know, a great athlete. It's interesting, though, that choice to be a solo performer, as it were, and have it on you to do that. And I did talk about this, but it was quite the moment, I imagine, from your perspective. You were 18 when you first won gold at the World Championships in Berlin. And what should have just been an incredible moment for that reason became something else.

Because in your book, you talk about the fact, you reveal you were tested by what was then known the IAAF, now known as World Athletics. What was your understanding why? Take yourself back there. I think for me, it came by surprise when, you know,

I discovered that these were gender tests. But for me, I understood that I was going for, you know, doping test, which is, you know, my federation then, the late, you know, 20, you know, assigned psychologists to come, you know, my federation then, the late, you know, 20, you know, assigned psychologists to come, you know, cancel. But the psychologists, you know, went through the corners. She didn't have guts, you know, just to tell me straight, Lucas, your gender has been questioned. Instead of that, she just, you know, pushing around the corner just to say, you know, people will talk. I said, people have been talking, you understand understand so just get straight to the point

but she couldn't do that and when i i went to the mediforum now meditlinic when i met you know the gentleman there the gentleman you know when he started talking to me i could understand you know what this can never be you know doping test that may be gender test then i ask him you know is this gender test or what and then he honestly told me look i'm sorry to say that but this is a gender test and for me how i took it is because look i know i'm a woman and for me there's nothing for me to hide i just told him look you got to do what you got to do because because I've got a flight to catch. I have a world championships to prepare. I had to pack my bags and stuff like that.

And he did that. But one way he told me before I left, he said, you are slightly different. I said, yeah, I know I'm a different woman. This is after the test. Yeah, after the test. I don't know what the results will be but I hope they don't come with disappointments.

But I'm young, I don't care. I care about having fun. I love athletics. I love running. Then, yeah, I get to Berlin. When I get to Berlin, I run the first heats. Then after the heats, when I came back from the hotel, IAAF, you know, now Wealth Athletics, assigned someone to come draw blood. So normal, you know, blood that have been randomly.

Okay. And then they take the blood. After the semifinal, they did the same thing. So then I asked one of the coaches, what's going on? Why am I tested like I'm a cheat or something? He also told me, look, because you're young, you're doing quite well, of course these are procedures that need to be taken. Only to realize after that the test arrived in Berlin.

And my president sent the vice president to me to say, look, Kez, I have bad news for you. The test that you took in Pretoria is bad. I'm afraid we might have to withdraw you from the races, you know. I didn't know anything about this high elevated testosterone, stuff like this. I said, hell no, I'm not going to withdraw from any championship. I'm here to run.

I'm here to do my best, and I'm going to represent my country. And they took me again in Berlin to a hospital to do the very same test. But this one was slightly different. They said, no, they need to evaluate. I said, it's fine. I'm a woman. I have a vagina. So just like any other woman.

So I don't really mind. You understand? But it got to a point where they wanted to, you know, go, you know, physical. I'm like, you're not going to do anything like that. But the only thing that you're going to do, you'll go behind. You're not going to penetrate me or do anything because that's a violation. I can never allow anyone to violate me to that extent. And they look at each other, you know, like, I say, yeah, you're going to do that.

You understand? extent and they look at each other you know be like I say yeah you're gonna do that you understand and for me at that point I started understanding how the world works because I felt like these people wanted me to feel like you know unwelcome they made me feel like I don't belong into the sports but most important thing is that I was like, okay, if they think I'm not women enough, I got nothing to hide. And the results came. Then they told me that, you know, what do you have to withdraw? And then I told the president of, you know, South African Federation to say, look, I studied sports science, you know, I studied sports science and I had knowledge about sports law. I'm like, look, I know everything that is happening here. And if you guys think I'm going to withdraw from this championship,

it's over my dead body. If there's any man who wants me off the track, have to drag me off the track. And the president, you know, had these big eyes. He's like, what? I said, yeah, that's what's going to happen. And do me one favor. It's either you're going to withdraw from the council to support me, or then it's your choice.

It's not mine. But what I know is that I'm going to go there and do my best. And he did so. After a few hours, tell me, you know what? I'm going to withdraw from the council and fight for what is right. I said, my man, I respect you for that. So you go ahead with the race. Yes.

And this is the one I'm talking about, the one you go on to win. A lot of people in your position talk about being in the zone. Yeah. And you have all that going on. Of course. Just before. But if I may, and this is part of the book and where you go into the detail yeah you did learn something about yourself at this time yes that should have stayed private

yeah it didn't it was leaked we'll come to that if we can you learn um and I'm quoting from your book that you didn't have a uterus of course or fallopian tubes um and other elements of of the body that you didn't know about. Yeah, I didn't know about it, but... But if I may, how did that make you feel at that point to learn that information? On one hand, you're fighting for your right to compete. But I'm imagining myself in your position that I didn't know this about myself. Yeah.

I think for me as a young girl, remember at that moment i don't know anything about the leak you know the results my focus is more on the race the race and they say they leaked i knew that after you know weeks that you know the results have been leaked because i know i suspected something during after semifinals when i was asked you know know, these are rumours that you may be a man, you know, you can, there's a clip out there. I was like, I don't really care, you understand. But in my mind during that championship, I was in the zone where I focused more on competition than negativity

because how I was raised, I prepared you know for perfection. So when did you process this new information about you? Well I processed this I think after a long after years because you see after that that championship when this thing happened remember I sidelined myself from the news so whatever that has been happening I never read the news. So whatever that has been happening, I never read the news. Even today, I don't really read newspapers. I don't do that, you understand, because I focus on myself than anything else.

So when that happened, I remember they were hiding newspapers. Guys, don't waste my time. I don't really have time for this because at the end of the day, that's when I own myself. I've realized I have the power in me to do what is right for me you understand because it's such I mean it's such personal information

and a lot of people would have found that I know you were trained as an athlete of course but at the age of 18 as well would have found finding that out and also having it leaked such a violation it's a violation but remember it's something that I cannot control. At the end of the day, it's out there. But they've done me a favour because I had to learn through it. There are people who had to learn through it, you understand. Now people, they know that there are people, there are women out there, you know, with defences, you understand.

And I think it's an important, you know, matter, especially in women's sports, to understand that women with defences, they are not threats. You also say in your book, very plainly, because you've had a lot of things said and written about you, this is your opportunity. You make it clear, although you learn you also had undescended testes, you don't produce sperm and you aren't a hermaphrodite. Because these were some of the things that were written and said, not even always by people who were wanting to say it in necessarily a bad way. There was a lack of understanding because of how the information came out and also just generally how people talk about these things.

Of course. But for me, it's not about what people label you. It's about knowing your identity. It's about you knowing yourself. I think for me, that's when, you know, self-discovery comes. That's why the book is don't mean anything. It's more like a disorder in the medical term. And even Sebastian knows that. Even Berman knows that. They know that it does not play any role in sports. Now, I accept that you process and still process what's happened to you in your own time. But it did then affect your ability to do your job. Yes, of course.

Because you came to an agreement with the World Athletics Governing Body to take the contraceptive pill to lower your testosterone. Of course. Because in most lines of work, it wouldn't matter that you'd found out this information, but it was deemed that it did matter. And I want to get to this with you. It affected you greatly, the hormones in this way. Yes. Can you describe how it affected you greatly, the hormones in this way. Yes.

Can you describe how it affected you? Yeah, but, you know, taking the medication, I'll say for me, it was, I took it out of desperation for me to get into the, you know, running space again because you can't just be a champion one time and then you leave. We came into an agreement and I had to take that you know six months prior you know them clearing me and it made me sick I lived you know under stress every day you know you're not happy you know you just in the dark and you know you living with a bending stomach you have panic attacks no

shears you you always want to vomit each and every day you know those are the things that people don't know and when the doctors told me look we're only going to let you take this only for two years I was like yeah it's fine as long as I can at least make it to the Olympics that will matter the most

but it has been hell if I may say no one want to get into that situation that I was in because you end up not liking the person you are. You dislike yourself because it changes everything about your life, your routine. You don't sleep at night. You're always, you know, thinking, why am I doing this?

But for me, it was just about competition. And being able to do your job. That was the reason for it. I should say there'll be millions of women who've listened, who've taken the contraceptive pill, and it hasn't been their experience, or they will relate to some of that in different ways. Of course, if you have any questions about contraceptives,

I should say at this point, talk to your doctor about it or GP. Each person has their own response to it. But for you, it was a very different reason. It's a different reason. Yeah. And you are in the business of your body. Of course. And physicality. Yeah. So on that, do you think you had an unfair advantage over women not born with DSD, differences of sexual development, with aka, in this case, let's talk about what it means, lower testosterone for the purposes of your sport. Do you think you had an unfair advantage?

No, there's never any unfair advantage over that. Why? Number one, it's just the high elevated testosterone. It does not play any role into sports. And number one, why I say that, if I had advantage, why am I running same times that they're running? Number one, your countrywoman is running the same times that I'm running. How old is she? You get what I'm saying?

So you have to understand one thing about sports. Sports has never been fair because of genetics. But in our situation as women, that high testosterone level, it comes as a medical term, is a disorder. It's more like a dead seat that don't work. You understand? But we have male and female categories.

I do understand. Yeah, I know. And I'm just looking at the statement that the World Athletics body has sent today. I'm not going to read all of it at this point, but it says, World Athletics has over a decade of research directly from DSD athletes in our own sport that show high testosterone levels do provide an unfair advantage in the female category. That is why our guidelines on testosterone thresholds are, they say, necessary, reasonable and proportionate to protect the integrity of the female category

and have been upheld by two courts. That directly goes against what you just said. Of course. No, but that's their statement. And if they say... Well, they say it's based on research. Word research. Word research because it's just well documented. If I may say so, I'm going to give you one example about it. If really women with DSD are playing, you know, they have an unfair advantage over other women, why are they running same times that women run?

Why are they running? Because they say we born a man. So why are we running 141 over 800 meters? Why are we running 326, you know, over over 1,500? So it doesn't make sense. Even 100 metres, it does not play any role. In this same statement, it says the research also shows, though, that the frequency of DSD individuals in the elite athlete population is around 140 times higher than you will find in the general female population. So if I put back to you your point you just made to me, is that you're talking about time. Yes.

You've got a disproportionately high number of DSD women in the women's category. Of course. What do you say to that? What I'm saying is that there's nothing much I can say about that because for me, I want IAAF to really give us a clear instruction about this research that they're talking about. Because if they say they've had 10 years of experience or whatever, my point is there's no such thing as that because we're not doing anything extraordinary

that a woman cannot do on the track. Dr. Russ Tucker, not from this organization, a sports scientist, has said it's actually very simple. He says women's sport exists for biological reasons. It excludes a biological advantage that creates huge performance implications. He says it's pretty basic, a straight line drawn from chromosomes to testes to hormone levels because that same hearing found athletes with just to help people if they don't know as much about this with what is termed as 46 x y dsd so they because they have 46 x y chromosomes which is what you have of course quote enjoy a significant sporting advantage over female athletes with XX chromosomes, for example, having greater lean body mass,

larger hearts, higher cardiac output. I'm just going to give you the chance to reply to this. Do you see why some say, including the body of sport here, and some fellow athletes have been very outspoken about this, that it is not possible to have a fair competition between the two groups. I still stand firm with what I'm saying, that what they're saying is nonsense. Lean body mass, it comes through training. All those hard and what comes from high altitude. You can't train your testosterone level to be higher. You can't train your testosterone level to be higher, of course. So you don't believe that gives you any advantage?

I don't believe it gives me any high advantage because there's nothing that I do. There's nothing that I feel in my body that is different to an extent where I feel like I'm a man. You understand? No, no, I'm not asking about making you feel like that. I'm just saying, in terms of training, I'm going to tell you about training. All women train to perform. If it gives me advantage, that's what I'm saying, why am I not running any times close to men, as much as they say I'm biologically men?

You understand? But if you are running higher and faster, so for instance, if I look, there was a time for people who had not followed this, where rules did change, and you were able to run free of the drugs taking down. Yeah, but you see, now you're talking about drugs. I'm talking about the drugs. No, no, no. So I'm coming to the...

Talking about if now I run faster, not taking the drugs. Yeah, yes. Because then they gave me what? A poison. No, sorry. So if I may finish, the biggest occasion, the Rio Olympics, right? In 2016, you won. You took gold in the 800 meter.

Alongside you on the podium, Francine Nyan-Saba from Burundi got silver. And for Kenya, Margaret Wambui, who got the bronze. All three medalists are DSD athletes. Of course. Born with, just to remind, different sexual development. And then the rules changed back. Do you see after that why some had concerns? Some of your fellow athletes in the women's category talked about, I cannot compete.

That's their problem because they've been, you know, misfed with the wrong information. So for me, you work hard to win medals. And if so, if you look into 2016 and now, the very same women who are crying, are saying that and that, why are they not winning medals? Because we're not there. If really... Well, some of them will have won.

I mean, they might not be in it. I'm not the expert on running of the athletes. No, no, go do your research, ma'am. Go do your research and go back and look. Who's winning now that should have been winning? What I'm saying is that very Lindsay Sharp, Melissa Bishop, they've been complaining about that.

Yes. I'm specifically going to quote those names. Okay. What did they win after we have been off the track? Well, they don't necessarily mean that they should necessarily win. No, no, no, no, no. It's about winning. Lindsay's not here to respond, to be fair.

As well, they've been racial because they will say, I'm the first European. I'm the first peach you know, European. I'm the first, you know, peach skin colored, you know. So you think it was mixed with race? Yeah, it mixed with race. And as well as this regulation, it targets only African and Asian women. You tell me who's a European who's affected by the rules. And also, I quote, if women's sports is being taken seriously,

why are men regulating women's sports? Why isn't women doing the very same thing? Why isn't women given a chance to have a say as women? I mean, that's a whole bigger question that we do every day on this programme. No, no, seriously, about women's, about who runs things. We did invite Lord

Sebastian Coe, President of World Athletics, onto the programme. I'd love him to come on and talk. And that would be a question we could definitely put. But it's important to hear from you on whether you think, because what you're not to do with is the row over trance. That's not to do with anything in your career. No, but I think it's important I say that. And you've said it because you've been wrapped up in that. And someone who has been very outspoken about that has been the Olympic British swimmer, Sharon Davis.

And she's talked about if we're not careful, then in 10 years, all the records in men's sport will be held by men. And all the record in women's sports will be held by women who carry a Y chromosome. I think we need to look into reclassifying things. That's one quote of many she's talked about. What it speaks to is whether you support, in any circumstance, any other categories. Do you support? Because you've talked about there being a variety of how men and women can be. We have now seen on the trans side of things, again,

I'm going to stress that that's separate. We have seen a change on this with, for instance, the latest rules from World Athletics, transgender women being banned from competing in the female category. That's also been followed by British cycling, swimming, triathlon and rugby. Do you think that's right? I cannot say anything about trans situation because I'm not a trans, you understand. But as a competitor, would you have been happy to have competed against a trans woman? I don't have a problem with anyone in competition because at the end of the day, when I'm here,

I'm here to compete, I'm here to entertain, you understand? For me, it's not really a matter of, you know, your differences. It does not matter about your circumstances or who you are, how you're built. But you believe in fairness. I believe in fairness. And that's why I'm saying I'm not going to commend in a trans situation because I'm not a transgender. You have an opinion, no? No, no, no, no, no.

That's not my place to say because I'm not transgender. At the moment, you called me here for my situation where I can answer for my situation. You can completely refuse to say. I just, I'm surprised you don't have an opinion. No, no, no, no, no. I don't have opinion on that at the moment. I don't have a problem with them. But at the moment, I need to be able to speak on my behalf on what I feel is right.

How does it feel to speak? To speak? And do this now because you have decided to do it. It is a decision. So many people spoke for you and wrote about you. Does it feel good to do this? Let me tell you something about this. It will not be fair for me to talk on behalf of trans family.

You understand? It's very simple. I can't say anything about that because I'm focused on me at the moment, specifying to say, look, women with DSD are not a threat in sports. It ends there. And my question was slightly separate,

which was, I understand you don't want to talk away from your situation. Although it would have been interesting to hear your opinion. I'll stand by that. It will come for another day. I don't have a problem to answer that opinion. I'll stand by that. It will come for another day. I don't have a problem to answer. Well, I look forward to having you back on Womata.

But how does it feel finally, Kastus Amenya? Because a lot of people were excited to hear from you this morning on the programme. How does it feel to be using your voice like this? It feels great. It feels great because we educate people about, you know, women with DST and we make sure that they understand that women with DSD

are not a threat into any sports. They're just women like any other women. They're just born with their differences. Do you think you'll achieve a change though? Because the rules are not that... That's what I'm here for. I'm going to fight it till it gets to where it's supposed to be because I'm about fighting for what is right

Finally, you're not running at the moment What do you like to do in your spare time to cool off and enjoy yourself Is it still running but not competitively? No, I run every day I'm a coach I run development programs

to avoid such nonsense to happen to any other kids, to educate them about self-love, make sure that they understand what they're getting into. I should say, you've got children with your wife and you've got, would you recommend them

to get into sports? No, no ways. Where must they come and do athletics? Specifically athletics, they will not do athletics. That's it? Yes, that's it. Interesting. It's always interesting to hear. Yeah, no, they won't do athletics. Specifically athletics, they will not do athletics. That's it? Yes, that's it. Interesting. It's always interesting to hear. No, they won't do athletics. No.

What are they going to do, do you think? Tennis, golf, swimming. Yeah. I can now see you as one of those people. I need to take them away from this nonsense

of women being treated like they're animals. Well, I think, I mean, there's a very serious point in there, but you're also somebody I can imagine on the sidelines being a good competitive parent on behalf of their child. We see them in the sporting world. And I know your family are very proud of you. And the story is all in the book, which is fascinating.

Thank you. Thank you very much for being with us today. Thank you very much. The book is called, quite aptly, The Race to Be Myself. And it's very powerful. Kastus and Menya, thank you. Thank you. much for being with us today. Thank you very much. The book is called, quite aptly, The Race to Be Myself, and it's very powerful. Kastas and Menya, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Many messages, I'm sure, to go through and talk about that.

A lot of you care greatly about sport and women's sport and your experiences. Do get in touch if you would like to. I'd really like to share some of those on the radio this morning. But I did promise you some music. Kirsty McColl wrote and sang some of the most iconic pop songs of the 80s and 90s. She tends to be remembered best, however, for Fairytale of New York and for her untimely death in 2000.

As a comprehensive new box set of her work, See That Girl demonstrates her influence and importance as an artist extends far beyond this. The music journalist Jude Rogers wrote an essay for this new box set and joins me now. But first, let's just have a little listen to the woman herself.

Oh, Jude Rogers, friend of the programme. I think we can call you that now. Good morning. Good morning. It's lovely to hear her voice, isn't it? Oh, it is. Just lifts you up, doesn't it? If you don't know her music,

and this is actually part of it, isn't it? The back catalogue. Yeah. Educating people. Why did you want actually part of it, isn't it? The back catalogue. Yeah. Educating people. Why did you want to celebrate it and point people towards it? Oh, I've just been full on with this. As soon as I was asked what I wanted to do, the liner notes to this box set, I was just desperate to do it right.

Because she's an artist that is one of the best British singer-songwriters, full stop. She absolutely is. It's not just me who says this. Johnny Marr says this. Graham Goldman from The Hollies says this. You know, she is, the people interviewed for this box set were just over the top wanting to talk about how wonderful she is as a songwriter, but also as an arranger, as somebody who works with Amazing Harmonies, as an interpreter of people's songs um and she still gets forgotten um for that side of her career obviously she's known for fairy tale of new york and she's also known for the manner of her death um which is the one thing i did not mention at all in the box set i wanted to talk

about her life for those who don't know a line on that though yeah she died in 2000 um you know suddenly and horribly um she was killed by a speedboat, pushing one of her children out of the way. And, you know, she was in this incredible place in her career, made this amazing album, Tropical Brainstorm, influenced by Cuban and Latin American music that she loved. But when she talks about it, you know, she sang with the Pogues and she died young. Her life is so incredible. You know, the genres that she could just master with such ease. Her lyrics are just amazing. She writes love songs that feel like love songs that women don't usually get a chance to write, but it's because she just did her stuff the way she wanted to do it. And that sometimes meant that she wasn't, you know, pushed in the right places or thought about as high up as some of her male equivalents.

And the lyrics, you know, you say she dislikes songs in which women sang about their lives being over if they don't have a man. Yeah. She's just one of the big joys about doing this box set was going through her lyrics. There's a whole album that she made in 1983 that nobody would release basically

called Real influenced by sort of the synthesizer pop at the time and there's a lyric on the song called Bad Dreams which sounds like this amazing sort of human league song I dreamed I was standing in Croydon again with my life on the line being chased by some men my affection's just a token and my rewind switch is broken

and she just sort of delivers this with this sort of nonchalant no-nonsense delivery but she could also write love songs that just absolutely destroy you there's one of her last album called autumn girl soup i'm an autumn girl on the endless search for summer because i need some love to cook my frozen bones you know um she's really just got this beautiful way of writing lyrics and the closest know, female lyricist to it, probably people like maybe Lily Allen or, you know, but not many women kind of are given,

will have big record contracts who can write these very textured, interesting, nuanced lyrics that aren't, you know, about boys and, you know, handbags or whatever. But, you know, there are lots of interesting independent artists, but she is somebody who should have been a lot bigger than she was in life. When she was a bit bigger, in the video for A New England, she's seven months pregnant, she's wearing a big coat.

She also resisted the pressure in some ways, didn't she, to look a certain way, to glam up. Definitely. I love that video. If you find it online, yeah, she's just wandering around looking a bit grumpy. I need to go look at that yeah she says um basically kind of um there's an interview she did about it later and she said you know it's a bit hard getting changed in a toilet cubicle when you're seven months pregnant um but you know a new England you know that's a Billy Bragg song but it's sort of her song Billy Bragg himself says that's a Kirsty song now you know um she

went to him and said right I want you around my house. I'm going to cook you a full breakfast. I want to do a version of your song, changing the gender with a new verse. Can we do that? And she, you know, got him to do it with her. And he talked to me about when he played that track on the Pieta gig of his, when he just got it in the mid 80s, and just the amazement in the crowd. And he still sings her version now live.

You know, she could make other people's songs her own. Johnny Marr said that with The Days, her cover of the Kink song, which also was a hit of hers. You know, she just made the songs her own, which is incredible. But that success sometimes of singing other people's songs more than her own is, again, that's why there's a bit of a reclamation going on here. Yeah, definitely. You know, I wonder if there's some kind of, if there's an element of misogyny there, I'm sure there is.

You know, she was a big character. I interviewed for the box set her partner at the time of her death, James Knight, who said, you know, she was somebody who went absolutely all in, in life, in songwriting and everything. But it could also be a, and there's a swear word there, for rollercoaster. You know, she was a full on person. And we look to pop stars and we look to singers and songs for those extreme manifestations of emotions. We don't always want that in human beings. And definitely record labels don't necessarily want that in human beings. You know, people who want to be themselves

and may not compromise on things that are important to them. It's quite interesting just to think about what's going through someone's mind when they want to redo someone's song and have quite a strong view on how to do it. I wonder what do you think her driving force generally was with her music? What do you think she was hoping to bring to people's lives, to bring to women's lives? I think she just had this huge love of music from childhood.

She was obsessed with the Beach Boys very early on and harmony and creating songs that could affect people emotionally. And I think she saw in New England and Days, you know, in other different places, she could take these well-known songs to. I think Days was the first song of hers I really remembered. And when I first heard the King's version years later, I was just, you know, staggered really that she could make something that's so different. You know, she just had this encyclopedic knowledge and love of music and would,

you know, go through records and pick, you know, bass players or, you know, kind of singers that she wanted to work with and put these, you know, arrangements together. And she just wanted to explore as much as she could, you know, the depth and the range of songs that she did. You know, you heard it at the beginning, you know, don't come the cowboy with me, Sonny Jim. She's maybe most naturally, in my ears anyway, country singer with that level of emotion. But she can also do stuff that touches on trip-hop

and, you know-hop and all kinds of classic British songwriting. And her love, as I said, of Cuban music. She said, I don't want to try and fail to be the Buena Vista Social Club. I want to succeed at being Kirsty McColl. She recognised that by doing that,

she didn't want to appropriate anything. She just wanted to be herself. Other people did cover her songs and had more success. Just flipping it the other way, we're thinking of Tracey Ullman with They Don't Know, one of her teen ballads. Let's have a listen to Kirstie's version. That's Kirstie's version.

Tracey Ullman's version sent her career soaring. And having done the research that you've done for this, tell us a bit more. So, yeah, Tracey was sitting at her hairdresser's next to Kirstie's old record labels, Boss's wife, who said, you know, oh, you want to I think you should listen to these songs because maybe you can make something of them. And, yeah, they were huge. You know, They Don't Know was a big hit in America and introduced Tracy Ullman to America. I interviewed Tracy for the Lion Notes. I thought it would be impossible because, you know, she's still absolutely massive. And, you know, filling in an email form on a website because it's the only way, I thought it would be impossible because, you know, she's still absolutely massive and, you know, filling in an email

form on a website because it's the only way I could find it. And she came back within a day and we Zoomed her, you know, in LA and we had about an hour together and because she was so still so moved by what Kirstie'd done for a career, you know, Kirstie could have been very, you know, not

cross but kind of, you know, like, you know, oh this woman's come along and made massive hits of my songs. She supported her. She sang on They Don't Know. There was a note that Tracy couldn't hit. She hit it and Tracy admitted that. There was this lovely thing that Tracy told me that in 2000, Kirstie just contacted her to the blue, said, I'm coming to the States. I'd love to just meet you to just have a day together chatting about our lives. And they had this beautiful day together. You know, Tracy wasn't to know that was the last year of Kirstie's life, but they had this beautiful day together you know Tracy wasn't to know that was the last year of Kirsty's life but they had this long day you know drinking tea talking about their children the different ways their careers had gone Tracy um you know

obviously had this huge hit um songs and you know became you know well-known actor comedian um Kirsty had been on the edges of this life with her first husband Steve with Lily White as well who was a huge producer. He produced U2 in the 80s. And I couldn't get him off the phone telling me how amazing Kirstie was as a producer. I think you've done a very good job of selling for people who don't know her music. I mean, they made just no fairy tale of New York. And so they've got a whole other world to discover, right?

Because, you know, it's the biggest hit for her. It's gone into the chart multiple times since first released in 1987, even had a musical based on it. I mean, it was a whole thing, but there is so much more, as you're saying. Yeah, there's so much more. And do jump into the box set and find that video of her in a, you know, pregnant with a coat on. I'm on it. I feel like you always give me a bit of good homework. And something to add to my playlist, my ever, ever reaching music journalist jude rogers uh talking about kirsty mccall a new comprehensive box set of her work called see that girl is out and a lot for you to discover if you don't know

uh just a few messages and as i thought there might be coming in about my previous interview with a woman we don't often hear for from uh cast Semenya, one of the most decorated athletes of her generation. Katie says, is there any area in life where individual differences and genetic don't play a role? Jo's got in touch to say, we need to know more about the difference between all women. If all people got tested, what would we see? Do we know?

Well, the athletics side of things, the governing body would say, we have done the research and this is where we've come out on. And as I said, very much like Lord Coe to come onto the programme. Davina says it is clear to me that there needs to be a third category for people with differences in gender perhaps this is something to discuss. Well I did want to get a clear take from Castor on that but as you heard she declined to say saying she was talking about her specifics, but also fascinating. She doesn't want her children to go into the same part of sport, golf, football, other areas to be explored, it seems. But coming closer to home now in terms of perhaps your lives, not all of us are athletes, to say the least.

How are our lives going to change? Sometimes from politics, you get a clear steer. And in the next hour, we'll have the first King's speech in more than 70 years. King Charles delivered the Queen's speech last year on behalf of his mother at the opening of Parliament. But this year he's doing it officially. And in this morning's speech, the King is expected to include around 20 bills from the government, focusing on criminal sentencing and smoking, among other things. The Justice Secretary has written, Alex Chalk, this morning, that tackling violence against women and girls is my priority and a central mission of this government.

Well, first let's talk to the BBC's political correspondent, Ian Watson, who's on the line to tell us more. Ian Watson, it does seem to be criminal justice and sentencing and specifically how women are affected that are making the headlines, are making the headlines this morning. Absolutely, Emma, that seems to be at the heart of the King's Speech, 21 bills in total, and a range of them on criminal justice

from helping victims to tougher sentences for offenders. I think a lot of the headlines are actually going to be about whole life orders, or life means life, in the phrase that politicians like to use. Judges in England and Wales will now have to impose these where a murder involves sexual or sadistic conduct, as the government terms it. Also, convicted rapists are going to have to serve the entirety of the sentence that they've been given, whereas currently the minimum is two thirds of their sentences. But I think we should also concentrate on some things which look less prominent but could actually potentially be more useful for people,

because the government says as many as three in five victims of sexual or domestic violence don't report the crimes in the first place. And around a third of those who do then withdraw before the case reaches court. So they're going to be providing £21 million to recruit 1,000 more independent sexual and domestic violence advisers. And they say that from those who have already been recruited, their involvement makes it far more likely that people will see the whole process through, 50% more likely

that victims will actually go to court, even though that is, for many people, potentially harrowing. I think there's some other measures here as well that people may welcome that the government's talked about before, but they will now criminalise the sharing of intimate images without consent, for example. Another interesting one, actually, is giving probation officers more powers to use lie detector tests on sexual offenders who have released a licence to make sure they're not re-offending. So a whole range of measures there, which I think will dominate most of the coverage. Yes, and that detail is important. I mean,

it's one of the last opportunities, you could argue, for the Prime Minister before a general election to lay out his cards in quite this way and we're going to be talking in just a moment to to a woman part of a triumvirate of women who've wanted to change the leasehold system and i know there's some detail on that yeah there is there's i think two things which i think people may welcome so um for those who've bought their own homes but are on leasehold that's many people who own flats, for example, it's now going to be a lot easier for them to acquire the freehold of those properties because at the moment many would say they're exploited through service charges or high ground rents. So it would be easier for them to be in charge, if you like, or perhaps people who live in flats collectively to acquire the freehold themselves. But also, if they want a leasehold extension, it's going to be easier now to extend that from a standard 99 years to 998 years.

So it's certainly well beyond anyone's lifetime. And that means that the value of the property is not necessarily going to fall if the lease is going to run out or you're going to have to pay a huge amount of money to try to extend that. So I think that is definitely of interest. I think other measures that of interest. I think other measures that are probably worth mentioning is this, which was mentioned at the Conservative Party conference, of course, this ban on smoking for younger people raising the age year by year

at which it's legal to buy cigarettes. Anyone currently who's 14 years of age in England will no longer be allowed legally to buy cigarettes in future. That measure is part of the King's speech, has support from the opposition, so it's likely to become law. Ian Watson, thanks for putting us in the picture. That will be coming up shortly. The BBC's political correspondent there. Lots in there. Some stuff not in there as well. I think it's always good to look what's not being mentioned. But on what we do know about the leasehold side of things,

the Minister for Levelling Up Housing and Communities, Michael Gove, had pledged to abolish what he described as England's feudal leasehold system, which has seen expensive fees imposed on homeowners. The bill is expected to ban leaseholds for new houses, but not flats. Three women had come together. They decided they wanted to change the leasehold system and they set up something called the National Leasehold Campaign. Joanne, Jo, Derbyshire is one of these women and she's here now. Jo, good morning. Good morning. What had been your experience of being a leaseholder and did you know that this was going to be your reality when you bought your home? I bought a new build leasehold house in 2010. I was told at the time it was leasehold. I had had leasehold houses in the past and never had any issues with them. The sales lady at the time told us that the ground rent doubled every 10 years, which we thought was unusual. She also told us that we could buy the freehold at any time for about £5,000. What she didn't tell us was that, you know, if we didn't do that at that point, it was custom and practice to sell the freeholds on to investors and the price

would rocket. So for us, that meant that the cost from buying the freehold went from £5,000, had we bought it at the point of sale, to over £40,000. And it's been a complete nightmare. And I imagine very stressful when you're not knowing how things are going to change and you feel like you've got no control. You set up this campaign. How did you go about it? What have you been calling for? There was three of us who all had sold houses in different parts of the northwest of England. We set up on Facebook, we're just a couple of hundred people and it snowballed. And we've now got 28,000 people in the group. And all three of us are house owners.

But what we've learned over the last nearly seven years is how far flat owners in particular are abused by the leasehold system as well. And today, with what's expected to be announced from the government via the King's Speech. Are you happy with what you're hearing? Is it a partial victory? I think it's a partial victory. I mean, obviously, from a personal point of view, I'm delighted that they're going to ban the sale of leasehold houses so no one else has to live through what I've lived through. But we need to go further for flats. The rest of the world does not have leasehold.

It's a purely feudal system and it needs to be got rid of. So what we want to see is a real drive towards common hold being the default tenure for people that live in flats and apartments. Yeah, it's one of those things, I think, until you have some experience of it, you don't really take a step back and think, why do we have this? What's still in place that doesn't make sense in the modern day and how that has then been changed to make people's lives very, very difficult indeed. What is your current situation?

I bought my freehold coming up two years ago now. It cost me eight and a half thousand pounds. So my nightmare is over, but it still carries on for many people. So for me, it's freedom. It's that knowledge that I actually own the house I live in. I can paint the door a different colour if I want to without somebody's permission, all of that nonsense. So I was going to say, until that point, how had you been feeling

and how had it been until you took that decision and you were able to do it? It never felt like my home was my own um really so we had to ask permission for all sorts of things and pay fees for all sorts of things um and and the weight of thinking i was going to have to pay you know 40 000 pounds to buy the freehold was was was terrible and i went through one phase um as things progressed with the particularly the onerous doubling ground went where the house was un-mortgageable and unsellable. That's interesting. I mean, you know, we do know, of course, of many people who are in that situation for other reasons as well at the moment because of cladding and how the UK stuff is padding out. And that's a whole other campaign. But coming back to your campaign, the three women who've come together like this it's um it's Catherine and Katie to say their names uh it's it's imagine although not there yet it's

quite an important day for you three oh it is you know we hope that this is the beginning of the end um for Lisa or Tanya it certainly needs to be and the people that you've met along the way I mean you must you must have heard so many stories. Are any of them actually going to be helped by today or is it just for the future? I think some of them will be helped. We have a lot of leaseholders in particular in the group who are asking us about lease extensions and whether they should wait for the King's Speech or whether they should extend their lease now. And that's such a difficult position to be in because quite a lot of them have got short leases where this marriage value that's talked about kicks in and makes the cost of extending a lease thousands and thousands of pounds more than it would be if it was abolished.

And I mean, just finally, I do have to ask you because it's such a great name in some ways, although I know it refers to something very serious. A play was made about the three of you. Is that right? It is right. Yeah. Fleecehold. Fleecehold. Fleecehold. Fleecehold the play. On at the Little Angel Theatre, I believe, earlier this year. Did you get to see it?

Yes, yes, I did. Yes, it's quite bizarre seeing somebody play yourself on stage. How did you come across? I came across as the grumpy one. If you ever look at me on the internet, I stand outside my house with my arms crossed and a very grumpy expression on my face. So I was the grumpy one.

I think there's a line that says something like, you don't mess with Joe. Well, I've only spent about six minutes in your company, but I feel you'd look after me. You know, I wouldn't mess with you and you'd have my back. So that's a good representation in some ways. But I suppose it's also about educating people, isn't it? It is.

It's a fabulous way to educate people who may not watch mainstream news and those kinds of things. And leasehold's quite a dry subject anyway. So it's a really good way of getting the message out about how ridiculous leasehold is to lots of people. Are you three going to allow yourself a celebration? I hope so.

But we are all three full-time working mums. So yeah, it's work today for all of us. But I'm sure at some point we will get together and raise a glass, assuming today is a real step forward. Well, indeed, I'm sure. Well, thank you for taking the time to talk to us this morning and ahead of the King's speech. And it's a it's a historic one to have it included as well. The first one of a king in many, many years. So that will be coming up shortly. Thank you very much, Jo, Joanne Derbyshire there, one of the triumvirate of women who has been campaigning and set up the National Leasehold Campaign.

So I wanted to bring that to your attention. A message actually just come in saying leaseholders should also be charged for current leaseholders and current leaseholders should be able to buy at reasonable price or they should be gifted on the basis of past ground rent paid. And just going back to the music of Kirstie McColl and her writing and the lyrics, a message here that says,

what a wonderful piece about Kirstie. She was a brilliant singer and songwriter and deserves to be much better known. Some of you say you're going to go and check out the music and figure it out for yourself. And still, I'm sure, messages to come in and coming in about mind's view with a woman that we don't hear from regularly it's safe to say but she's decided to break her silence with her book casta simenia if you if you missed the beginning of that of

course catch up on the podcast uh to listen to our full interview the book's called the race to be myself and that discussion about whether to have different categories within sports will be something that you could return to or come back to. And I do hope, as I say, that we could get Lord Sebastian Coe to come on Women's Hour because we have asked several times now. And it's a much bigger discussion. She didn't want to be drawn on the trans issue, but how women's sport is played and played equally.

Thanks so much for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Thank you so much for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. From BBC Radio 4, life can be unexpected. It was big.

This was not a wind. This was not a storm. This was a tsunami. But when confronted with change, humans are remarkably resilient. I knew in that moment as I fell to the ground that I would recover more. I'm Dr Sian Williams, psychologist and presenter of Life Changing, the programme that speaks to people whose worlds have been flipped upside down and transformed in a moment. If I had to live my life again, would I ever want

to go through what I went through? There's a very simple answer to that. I would go through it again. Subscribe to Life Changing on BBC Sounds. I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.