Woman's Hour - Cat Burns, Pakinstan's period tax, Mary Earps

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

NB: The music in this broadcast has been removed from this podcast for rights reasons.You might recognise Cat Burns from The Celebrity Traitors, where she’s been cunning and inscrutable as a Traitor, winning over audiences with her strategic gameplay. The Mercury Prize-nominated singer-songwriter has also just released her new album, How to Be Human. Ahead of the show’s final, Cat joins Anita Rani in the studio.Mahnoor Omer is a young lawyer taking the Pakistan government to court over its unfair ‘period tax’ which she says adds 40% to their costs. She wants to create public pressure on them to make sanitary products affordable in a country where they cost too much for most women. Mahnoor joins Anita to discuss her campaign.Goalkeeper Mary Earps played a pivotal role in England’s Euro 2022 win and helped the Lionesses reach the final of the 2023 World Cup, earning the Golden Glove after standout performances, including a heroic penalty save against Spain. In May 2025, just weeks before the Lionesses began their defence of the Euros, Mary announced her retirement from international football. Twice named FIFA’s Best Women’s Goalkeeper and BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2023, she’s now shared her story in her autobiography, All In: Football, Life and Learning to be Unapologetically Me.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

Hi, I'm Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy, so whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up a bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women

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but now back to today's women's. Good morning and welcome to the program. Ex-England goalie Mary Earps has been speaking a lot about her new memoir and she popped in to see me at Woman's Hour HQ too. In this interview, we go beyond football and she shared some really personal insights about her life, including her IVF journey. We'll be speaking to a woman who's taking on the Pakistani government over their unfair period tax. And TV fans, or more specifically, traitors,

fans and music fans. Kat Burns is here, the only woman left standing in the game. She's here to talk to us about her beautiful new album and maybe a bit about traitors, but no spoilers, I promise. This series, the first ever celebrity series of

traitors, has gone stratospheric. We are a nation gripped, with people having viewing parties to watch it tonight. It's actually a huge night for TV on the BBC with the first episode of race across the world also going out. In an where family viewing is so fragmented. This is proper appointment to view event TV, like the good old days, when we were younger. So that's where we're heading today. I'd like to hear your memories of watching TV together with loved ones. What was it you were watching? Why does it stick in your head? And what made TV together so important? Was it big Saturday night game shows like Blind Date or the Generation Game or 321, remember that? Or the Kenny Everett show? Or my grand's favourite, the Benny Hill show.

Or what about that fantastic moment in the summer of 2012 when London hosted the Olympics? What was that big TV moment in your family or amongst your friends? Get in touch and tell me all about it in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website or contact me on WhatsApp. It's 0300-100-444.

And social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Text number once again, though, 84844. But first, you might. recognize my next guest from the celebrity traitors. Mercury Prize nominated singer-songwriter Kat Burns has been cunning and inscrutable as a traitor, winning over audiences with her strategic gameplay. And she's just released her new album, How to Be Human. Ahead of the show's final, which airs tonight, Kat is swapping the Scottish castle for the Woman's Hour studio. And she is here with me now. Do not worry, superfans, there will be no spoilers. Before I speak to her,

let's have a burst from the new album. Cat Burns, welcome to Woman's Hour. That's got me, we were both dancing. Look at the smile on my face. It's anthemic, it's joyful. Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's our pleasure to have you here.

We will talk about the album in a moment, but we've got to start with traitors. It's what everybody is talking about. Why did you want to take part in the series? I love the show. I'm a massive fan of the show. I've watched every season from every different iteration of it. Anyone you could think of, I've watched it.

I'm even trying to watch the Canadian one somehow and I need to get some sort of VPN. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I just love the show. You're obsessed? Yeah, completely obsessed. I just love the premise of it. I love the idea of,

is it better to be in a group of not knowing or a smaller group of knowing? So I just love that. So how is the actual experience compared to watching it? Amazing. It's kind of what it says on the tin. I think it's just a massive, murder mystery and it's just so fun

and it's just so fun to have gone to a castle and played a game with a bunch of other adults I think it's just, it's so fun. Not just a bunch of other adults, quite an iconic cast. Yeah, yeah. What do you think of the casting of the series?

Incredible. I think it's a multiverse of people. I think because I'm the youngest there so I didn't know actually a lot of people that well. So it was really nice to sort of get to know people from what they wanted to share with me, which was nice. You've played a blinder so far. Last Woman Standing.

Yeah. Congratulations. How did it feel getting the squeeze on the shoulder from Claudia to find out that you were one of the traitors? It was, it was crazy because she does sort of, she just does keep walking around. And you're like, oh, okay, maybe it's not going to happen. And okay, cool. And then you kind of switch into, okay, cool. Then if I'm, if I'm going to be faithful, then I just need to, like, figure out. And then you get the tap on your shoulder and I was just like, oh, my God. And I instantly just went into, okay, everyone's going to be looking at any sort of change in behaviour.

So just act the same way. Do not act any different from before or after and just, just breathe. It's going to be fine. Why do you think this series has become such a huge success? I think the celebrity factor has a massive part to play in it because people already have their ideas of their favourite celebs that are going on it and to see us all genuinely love the game and see us do the missions and the conversations

and really take the game seriously, I think is really fun because it's people you know and love playing this game so I think that adds the element of it Whereas the civilian one, which is so great, it's you're getting to know these people. And whereas the celeb one is you already know some of the people already. The casting is genius. Absolute genius. It's fascinating, watching you all together.

And some, you know, we know better than others. And it's been amazing watching you, particularly. How have you found your life change alongside Traitors? Have things become a bit different? It's definitely gotten more intense. I think, like if I'm out walking around, I'll get stopped. a lot more. What do people want to know?

Nothing really, just to let me know that they love me on the show and for a picture. But I am a Londoner at heart, so I walk at the speed of light. So most of the time people go, is that? And I've already gone. Yeah. I'm out of there. Head down. Yeah.

Mission. Yeah. I hear you. Now, for anyone who's been watching, we know that you've played it really well, an absolute blinder, kind of kept your cards close to your chest. We've seen a, you know, you were very. lovely person you're very warm um your album however is very different we get to see and hear something very tender very vulnerable um something that you're very happy to share within your music

it's called how to be human where did the title come from um it came from one of my sessions really but i it essentially came from my granddad passing away and me going through my first breakup at the same time. And I was processing all of it at one moment. And I remember going into a session and saying I really wanted to write a song about being neurodivergent because I think there is an added layer of grieving and getting through grief that a neurodivergent person goes through compared to a neurotypical person. And we wrote the song, How to Be Human, which is all about what neurodivergent being neurodivergent feels like for me and as soon as we wrote the song and had the title for it I was like this is the this is the whole album this is what the album needs to be called because it is just me

navigating grief and heartbreak through my through my lens and can you explain how that was really difficult I think I think um losing someone or losing people in two different ways one to someone passing away and another to someone who's still alive they're just not in your life anymore and you don't have access to each other in the same way. We're two different things to really process and I think from a neurodivergent perspective

that the initial is the straight change of your routine. You know, that person's not in your routine anymore. That used to be your safe person. That was your person you could unmask around and you can't do that anymore and you now have to rebuild yourself again and you feel

your feelings really intensely. I know I'm a massive cryer. I cry all the time, which I think is very healthy to do. But it was very intense during that period. And I wanted to just make little video diaries of how I was doing because I always thought that people would document. Whenever people go through hard times, they always talk about it once they're out of it.

And they go, oh, you'll get through it. Everything's going to be fine. But they never document the process during and what those specific thoughts you could be having are. And that's what I try to do with the album. And you really have. It's really honest. and you've even included voice notes from difficult moments in your life.

This is from the intro to your song, Can Time Move Faster? It's quite raw. Let's hear a clip. It's really, it really packs a punch that, you know? It's visceral when you're listening to it because it's someone really there sharing it a real moment. Why was it important for you to put those big emotions in it? I think it really helps people realize that what they're feeling, isn't wrong

and I think it's really common especially when you're going through a really hard time to just want to skip to the part where you're okay and it's not wishing away your life it's just wanting to get through the next few months what's it like for you to hear that? I think now it's out it's not strange but it also just depends on my mood

I think if I'm in a melancholy somber mood and I listen to it I'll probably cry to because I'll go, wow, I was really, really going through it. But I also just think it's really powerful for people to hear the hard times and exactly what that looked like for me as someone who feels their feelings quite intensely. It made a lot of us in Women's Hour HQ feel quite emotional. But it also made me think, I wonder how much, particularly as a female artist, you feel you need to put yourself out there and sort of share those really tender moments,

do male artists necessarily have to do it in the same way? Are they doing it in the same way? It was just something that came to mind. That's really interesting. I mean, I think it's really dependent on the artist and what their message is. I think if the artist from the start has always been about vulnerability, male or female, I think they'll continue to be. But if, you know, there's an artist who just kind of wants to make, just wants people to escape,

in a positive way and happy and joyful, then that's their prerogative. But for me, I've always believed that art should cost you something and music is therapy. And for me, music has always been therapy. If I'm going through something, I love the songs where I can listen to them and go, oh my gosh, this was written for me.

Because if you're struggling to fill your feelings or know how to process your emotions, music can be a great help to do that. So I always kind of wanted to be an artist that used music in that way. And I didn't have to kind of be as vulnerable as I have been. But I just think, especially with the response, that it was the right thing to have done. And I felt it at the time.

I just felt like if I'm really nervous to put this body of work out, it means that it's going to help a lot of people and that people are going to receive it well. No, I hear you. Music has always been my therapy. So, yeah, thank you for putting it out there. You mentioned the experience of losing your granddad, but you also had back-to-back grief for a period of time because you lost your father in 2020.

then your grandfather passed away, as you mentioned, in April. And actually, the beginning of the album, you hear your father's voice. Grandfather. Oh, grandfather from his hospital bed. Why did you want to talk about grief? I wanted to kind of throw everyone in the deep end, because especially when someone passes away, you can never plan it and you can never prepare for it.

As much as my granddad was sick and was kind of getting worse, you're just not prepared and you couldn't plan for it. And I think with how it just starts straight away with, okay, we're going to talk about his life and he's now not here and he's done everything that he can do on this earth and he's now gone into the spiritual world. I wanted to start it straight away because I think for people who have lost people, that is what it is.

All of a sudden, your life has changed and you have no control over it and now you have to grieve someone you never thought you were going to lose. and it's a real, especially with my dad and my granddad, particularly with my granddad, it was just an end of childhood because all those memories of my youth kind of stay with him. And was he one of your sort of inner sanctum where you could unmask? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. He taught me all my life lessons.

I think the reason why I've got such a calming nature, I think, and a forgiving nature and all of those sort of positive traits all come from him. So I knew that once he passed, was like, I have to sort of have a body of work that is all to just sort of lift him up. What's granddad's name? We've got to talk. John. John. Got a name, John. Yes, John Burns. It's how you keep them alive.

Yes. You've got to keep the memory alive. You mentioned your neurodivergent and a new BBC investigation has been in the news today about ADHD services struggling to cope with the demand and people are waiting up to eight years for a diagnosis. You were diagnosed with ADHD and autism. How did it feel and how important was it for you to get that diagnosis? Really important for me to get the diagnosis. I think... How old were you when you got it? 21.

I was 21 when I got my ADHD diagnosis, 23 when I got my autism one. And it was really important for me to get the diagnosis because I think like a lot of women who are later diagnosed and or struggling if they're undiagnosed. sometimes that you can only feel like you can validate yourself when you get that diagnosis.

You know, some people, some people, you know, are neurodivergent and are like, I'm not going to seek a diagnosis. I understand how my brain works and I'm going to work with it and I get it and I'm going to give myself grace. Other people like me, until you sort of get that confirmation, once I got that confirmation, I was like, okay, this makes sense. So I do this because of this. and then it's easier to put things in place for yourself

to make your life more neurodivergent friendly but if you don't it becomes you just continuously invalidate yourself and then you're constantly putting yourself down and beating yourself up about the little things that you wish you could be able to do because it's all executive dysfunction it's struggling to complete tasks

it's a dopamine deficiency and if you don't for me anyway if I didn't get that confirmation I would still be just like why am I this way this is ridiculous and beating myself up, which is just not healthy. So the idea of an eight-year weight? Awful.

Awful, awful. It's something you've been very open about, even on Celebrity Traitors as well, at one of the round tables, you spoke about getting tired and overwhelmed in social settings. What about when you're performing? When I'm performing, that's kind of my,

that's my space to be free. I think because it's just me and the band on stage, and it's a real energy exchange with the band. I think we're the only, you know, four or five people depending on who's on the stage that know exactly what everyone we're all feeling and we can look at each other and have a great time. And I get to sing to the audience and just have a lovely energy exchange of, you know, people who know the words and, and me looking at them knowing the words and just having a really beautiful moment. The hardest part for me is

the socialising that comes after. And the general socialising, I think, of being an artist. You're constantly meeting new people. The music can. industry is notorious for being last minute, which for me is hell on earth. But I learnt very quickly. I just have to accept that. So how do you cope? How do you mentally prepared once you're off stage having to go into your dressing room and maybe there's a ton of people there expecting to speak to you and tell you how brilliant

you were? I either just go straight to the toilet and just like sit for a second or I tend to psych myself up as I'm walking off the stage. And I kind of, I go into sort of. of standby mode, my manager likes to call it, I go into standby mode and a bit of autopilot where I'm just like, and now I'm going to have to talk to people, so I'm just going to have to get through this and then it'll be fine and I can just sit in a dark room and not speak to anyone.

I wonder how this is experiences then. How is it doing press and doing interviews? Because actually, you know, someone who does this all the time, you are so generous, warm, like you are giving so much of yourself in a really truthful manner, which I really appreciate as an interviewer. But what is this like for you? It really just depends on the interview that I'm doing. I think I can tell pretty quickly if, and I think with this one I do, if I have the freedom to explain my answer and speak and I don't feel rushed, then I feel like I can speak. But if I'm told, you know, you haven't got that much time, then I feel a bit more like, oh God, I don't really know what to say. And that's when I kind of go into a recluse mode.

And I just kind of give one word answers because I'm like, well, we don't. have that much time so I can't, you know, explore the thought as much as I would like to. So I like podcasts and things that are that are slightly longer because you get to have a conversation. That's what I like. Well, you've got a lot to say. I know you've got a really close relationship with your mum. So it's woman's hour. We've got to give mum a shout. Yeah. What's her name? Nadine. Nadine. What does Nadine? How does Nadine feel about what's happening in your life at the moment? Amazing. She's she's, she's the queen of my life. I love her so much. She, just everything, she's, she's just always been amazing and been the best mom I could ask for.

That's lovely. Yeah. Good support. And I've got to talk about, back to TV, because actually we're doing a bit of tag team on TV tonight. So it's, the first, first episode of Race Across the World. That's amazing. I've done it with my dad's, and then it's Traders. I mean, it's epic, television at the BBC.

I want to ask you about secrecy. Because when I went off to do race Everybody here at the office thought I was doing traitors Because you can't talk to anyone about it So how were you in that time where you've done it You've filmed it but you can't say anything I just sort of smile and wave I just smile and wave

And people just ask me things and I just go I don't know Or I just stare and smile I think those are the best things to do Just wait like two seconds And then they go alright I need to learn this Because I feel like I just need to talk

So just smile and wave, smile and wave. Smile and wave. Just be more like the queen. And really immense year for you. What a huge year. You've kind of risen through traitors. We love you. You've got a new album coming out, which is divine. It's going to do so well. Are you going to take some time out? Or are you going to go straight into a tour? What's happening next? Christmas, I'm going to chill. I'm going to breathe.

I rescheduled my tour that was going to be at the end of this month to April, just because me and my team, I guess we didn't anticipate how hectic this. was going to be and I'm really all for my mental health and making sure that I don't burn out and I don't, I want to make sure for this tour especially because I love this album so much that I can give the best performance. Was that your decision? Yeah. That that takes a lot of power, right, to be able to turn around and say to a team like they've obviously planned the albums coming out, you're going on a tour for you to take charge someone so young and say I'm not doing it. Yeah, I mean, I'm really big on looking after myself and making sure that I don't lose

myself or go crazy and have a meltdown and completely shut down because I know what I'm like when I get really overwhelmed. And if I get too overwhelmed with everything, I'm very okay with going wrap up everything. I'm not leaving my house. So I wanted to make sure that I was looking after myself and I gave myself that time to process everything that's happened and then also be able to really put even more thought into the tour and make it the best it can be. And it gives us a chance to learn all the words. Exactly. So we can sing it back to you.

There we go. All right. We're looking forward to that. Yay. Kat Burns, it's been such a joy having you here. Thank you for having me. You come back any time. Yes.

And good luck tonight. Thank you. Kat's album is called How to Be Human. It's out now and you can catch the final of the Celebrity Traitors on BBC 1 or BBC I player from 9pm tonight, Thursday, the 6th of November. Thank you, Kat. And as I mentioned tonight, is a busy night for TV. We have the Celebrity Characers at 8pm on BBC 1 and the new series of Celebrity Race Across the World kicks off.

No, that's at 8pm. Swapping luxury for backpacks and comfort for the unknown. Four pairs, including me and my dad, Bal, embark on the ultimate adventure. Here's a clip from a few weeks ago from when Dad joined me here on Woman's Hour. When you mentioned, let's go for adventure, I thought it may be a couple of days, hiking somewhere or whatever, that sort of thing. You know, like we used to go on to the Yorkshire Moors. Five weeks with no telephone.

Why did you say yes? I don't know. I've spent time with you because we've never spent time with you since you were a little kid. No, we haven't. And we've never really been on holiday together either. Because you were quite independent. You didn't want to go to go to go. People will want to know how we got on.

Well, I think what I probably thought is still as me a little six-year-old little kid. Come on this way. saying, no, not this way, Dad. I know better. I know better. Did I know better even when I was six? I probably did. See, it's all going to come out. I think we reverted back to being a teenager and her dad, didn't we, a little bit. We did. At least we're still talking. Only because we're contractually obliged to talk, Dad. No, that's a joke.

We're still talking. Plus, me and Dad will be on the one show tonight talking about our wild experience. And you can watch Celebrity Race Across the World on BBC One and An I play it directly before the traitors from 8 p.m. tonight. Now, Manor Omar is a young lawyer taking the Pakistani government to court over its unfair period tax, which she says adds 40% to their costs. According to UNICEF, this tax means only a small proportion, 12% of women in Pakistan are able to buy sanitary pads. Both they and the World Health Organization have detailed these products as a health right. So why are the sanitary pads that are needed monthly by many of the countries estimated 120 million women classed as non-essential and taxed as luxury goods alongside perfumes and cosmetics?

Manoa is currently studying a master's degree in London and joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Studying a master's degree, you're the same age as cat, 25 and you're taking Pakistan to court. So let's start by understanding why the period products are seen as non-essential items. Yeah, well, firstly, thank you for having me. And so under the Sales Tax Act, we have a sixth schedule that lists all the items that are classed as essential items. And in those essential items, there are hardly any luxury goods on there. There's cheese.

There's bovine semen. But these are classed as luxury items. Personally, my opinion on this is because they're seen as a product used by upper class women, not in need of women all over Pakistan, similar to like a makeup item or perfume, which is to me quite frankly, very unreasonable. So it's an omission on part. I would like to think it's not an intentional act. It's an omission where while making this law, they didn't really think of much of it. Well, I have to also point out that sanitary products have only not been taxed here in the UK for nearly five years since January 1st, 2021. Okay, so, you know, we're only just behind you.

What's the attitude to menstruation and periods in Pakistan? I would say the attitude back home is still quite conservative. I was getting congratulations for bringing this petition forward as if I'm a soldier returning from war. It was quite intense where they said, you're so brave for speaking about this.

But there should be nothing brave about it. It's a biological function. It's a natural phenomenon that all women go through. So people still being so hush-hush about it. Women don't speak to their daughters about it. When I was little in my class, I would say, like six, seventh grade.

A girl got her period during computer class. She got up, Her white commies from the back was red-stained entirely. She looked so confused. She had no idea what was happening. The boy started laughing at her. The teacher quickly whisked her away to the bathroom. But I said, did your mum never tell you?

And she didn't. That just goes to show. Even mothers don't speak to their daughters about it. And what are the consequences for women in fact? You mentioned there the difference that they're seen as something that upper class women use. So what are the consequences for women in the poorer regions? The consequences are extremely dire because, firstly, lack of affordability because of this tax, leads to lack of access. And lack of access then translates them to using alternatives, alternatives such as pieces of cloth that they wash and reuse again and again.

In some areas, there have been reports of women using leaves. And especially right now, after the floods that happened, women's health was at the back burner once again. So this leads to infections, it leads to reproductive health issues. reproductive health issues then lead to a rise in domestic violence because families are now upset. Why isn't she giving us more children? So it's a whole it's a cycle of I would say poverty. It's a cycle of abuse. It's a cycle of electricity just goes on and on. It's interconnected. And a serious educational consequence as well. The UNICEF report also said that

one in five girls in Pakistan missed school because of their period. One in five. Okay, Manu, you're seriously impressive. I've just got two back to back, very impressive. young women on the program and it delights me to speak to you. Your case against the Pakistani government has now had its first hearing. What made you bring a case? Where did your personal activism come from? I've been pretty really passionate about women's rights from a young age. I started organizing with the Women's March, also known as Orith March, back in 2019, as a volunteer and now as an organizer. And when I got my license to practice law, my colleagues and I were

speaking to each other and a colleague and dear friend Esen Zhang Gear, who is the lawyer on this case with me and a great feminist ally, he said, why don't we use our license to start challenging these laws? So this is just the start. We're going to do an analysis of all the genderblind legislation against minorities and challenge them one by one. And I think most lawyers in Pakistan should start taking this up. So my fashion for women's rights and my license to practice really just came together and I said, we don't have to sit around anymore. Let's take them to court. Had any pushback? yeah actually the government hasn't really reached out

but there's news that they're not too happy about it they're like oh now we have to put aside resources to go to court for this there's so much going on and some comments on my social media were actually pretty surprising some men commented saying Viagra should now be tax free

imagine comparing a serious biological function and women's entire health to something like to this a non-essential you know and someone they were trolling they were joking Somebody even wrote, has this woman no shame? What should I be ashamed of?

Fighting for the health of half the population, 1 20 million women, that's your mothers and sisters back home also suffering from this, the lack of affordability. So how do you respond to that? I just ignored it. I just know because what I will say is, and it's been really, really surprising,

there's been a lot of positive feedback. Allies, not just in Pakistan, but from all over the world, they've all been garnering support, giving really, really nice supportive, comments. So those are the negative comments are just drowned out. You've set up an online petition. Yes. How many signatures so far? The petition's been set up by Mavari Justice, an organization fighting period poverty in Pakistan. And we have over 4,500 signatures so far from civil

society in Pakistan. So it's been really good. And how much impacts will that have? Can that have? I think it has a great impact. If there's one thing I feel the state machinery response to, it's public pressure. It's this conversation we're having right now. When they know the world is watching and these lawmakers whose voter bank is now 65% people aged under 35, so they need to keep us happy if they want to stay in parliament. So this shows that this is what the public wants

and they need to start taking women's issues seriously. I had your fellow brilliant Pakistani women's advocate on just the other week. Malala was in talking about her new memoir. And she said that when she went to university at Oxford, that's when she met her group of community of Pakistani friends. And that was the first time as someone from her region, she met children from different backgrounds and from cities and how their culture was so different to her culture.

So within Pakistan, you've got your contending with, you've got liberals on one hand, you've got conservatives on the other end. Like how are you going to push your agenda to make everyone see things from your perspective? Definitely. One thing we must always remember is that the term woman does not refer to one group.

It means many things. Women in Pakistan are very, very different. We have women in rural areas, women in Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, all have very different lived realities. And that is something we need to take into account. So when NGOs come and they're trying to tackle period poverty, you don't come with a top-down approach saying, here's a pad, use it.

That's not how it works. I'm also advocating online through my social media platforms for us to start tackling period poverty by grassroots level organizing, having awareness sessions in schools, going to rural areas, developing pamphlets in local languages to make women more aware

about how they can take care of themselves. It is to work with all of them together and not just come with saying, what you're doing is wrong, here's a better way to take care of yourself. End of story. No, you can't just throw money at problems. You have to start with educating

from the grassroots levels. How does it feel to have put yourself center stage in a case that you've described as women versus Pakistan? It feels pretty daunting, you know, it's just, it's been, it's been a lot of pressure because when we filed this case, Essen and I did not envision that this would get so much attention, we said, okay, yeah, just one of many cases we'll do. What did you think? And I'm pretty, I will say, I'm, I'm grateful, I'm grateful for the attention it's getting, because now what's happened is, in Pakistan, every news channel, from Urdu to Punjabi to every local language, they're all talking about this case. And that's great because now people's households where mom and dad are sitting together and they don't speak to each other about it

are watching on live TV a woman talking about menstruation on every Pakistani media channel. So to me, this petition isn't a legal battle only. It is a social battle to not just lift the ban on and lift the tax, but to lift the ban on speaking about menstruation. So it's just a start. Yeah, so there's no reason for a girl who starts her period in class and has a white gamazon that's stained with blood, doesn't know what's happening for her. What's next in your campaign?

You said this is the first. What are you going to do next? What I want to do next is I want to lobby and use petitions such as the online one we've done is to make a push to where it's starting some form of sex education in schools. Mestuation is just one of the health crises we face. Pakistan's population is booming exponentially

with no resources to take care of this population. So when we start speaking to women about contraception, about their reproductive health, we can give them the agency to change. choose how much, how many people they want in their family. The maternal mortality rate in Pakistan is also pretty high in a concern of mine. I actually made a documentary on that when I was 14 for the Girls Impact the World Film Festival. And so these are all issues, these are all things I'm quite passionate about. And I want to start by using both the state machinery

and also local civil society organizations to push for a change, to push and start talking about these things. Manor, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me this morning. Thank you for having me. 8444. the text number. Now did you know that the whole series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life is now available on BBC Sounds. There are six episodes on topics from how to see your friends more when life is busy to being ambitious without burning out and juggling your money mindset. And there are lots of tips to take away like these ones. If you say, I can't, very often a highly assertive persuasive person can convince you that you can. You might say, well, I can't come to the meeting and they'll say, well, you know, I'll make it shorter and you probably can. Whereas the I don't is a lot harder for somebody else to disagree with. Like, I don't go to meetings after five on a Wednesday because I go and put my kids up. I think when someone says, you look good for your age, I think you can stop it right there and say, I just look good. I mean, you can, or when people say, oh, you look, you don't look like you're 58 years old.

You can say, no, this is what 58 looks like. The Freedom Fund specifically is for when you need to leave. So when you need to get up from a job and it no longer serves you and you just want the ability to walk out of a job and think, right, I've got some money set away so I can go and look for something else. Or you want to get up and walk away from a partner. Make sure it's in your name. Make sure you're getting good interest rates.

Just think of that money is the money that's there to make you happier. All good tips. To listen to The Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Just go to BBC Sounds. Search for Woman's Hour and in the feed you'll find. the Guide to Life episodes. Now, goalkeeper Mary Earps' biography is out this week, which has put her in the headlines,

but she's no stranger to the limelight, having played a pivotal role in England's Euro 2020 win and helped the lionesses reach the final of the 2023 World Cup, earning the Golden Glove after standout performances, including a heroic penalty save against Spain. In May 2025, just weeks before the lionesses began their defence of the euros, Mary announced her retirement from international football. The timing of her decision shocked fans and sparked criticism. Manager Serena Vigman said at the time she was disappointed

by her decision. She had a few weeks earlier named Hannah Hampton as England's first choice goalkeeper. Off the pitch, she made headlines when she called out Nike for not selling replicas of her goalkeeper shirt ahead of the World Cup, a move that sparked public outcry against the company and led to a U-turn. Twice named. FIFA's Best Women's Goalkeeper and BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2023, she's now shared her story in her autobiography, all in football, life and learning to be unapologetically me. I spoke to her two weeks ago ahead of the book launch

and asked her about telling her story now. I think I've been honest, authentic, true to who I am. I'm really conscious truthfully that I don't know how they're going to appreciate my honesty. I don't know if people are going to, you know, oh, you shouldn't have really said that. That should have remained a trade secret. And I don't like to worry about what people think, but I do feel truthfully a bit anxious.

I think it's unusual for a current player to write a book, you know. And I think that's probably where it comes from. Let's lean into what your concerns are. What's the bit that you're struggling with the most? I think people understanding or not understanding maybe my mindset, how I'm wired, how I get to certain decisions and how I've made certain decisions if they can appreciate that

in terms of maybe my decision to leave Manchester United, my decision to retire, why I felt those things were important. Because it wasn't a popular decision with the fans. I definitely felt like it wasn't popular with some people, but I think some people understood it and some people celebrated it. And naturally there was some that didn't.

And I think I maybe underestimated some of the darker, dirtier tactics that were played at times, I think, to sort of maybe frame it in a certain way. And I didn't, I wanted it to be a moment of celebration, I think. And I hope that that's what this book is as a moment of celebration as opposed to, you know, everything that I'm not. I'm wondering whether some of this sort of hesitation and you kind of being a bit nervous about what people are going to read is because of how heavily criticized you were by some of the newspapers. Potentially, I think that's probably a fair comment. When that happened, how do you build yourself up? I've run away for the first part. I think I always try and say it's hard, mostly for what I think my friends and family experience.

Me, I feel like I've dived into this life and pardon the pun. And I feel like I haven't asked for the success that I've had, but I've unapologetically pursued it. So whilst I never anticipated to ever have the amount of success and trophies and incredible accolades that I've won, and now as a result of that, the responsibility to bear the brand and the responsibility of who I am and what I represent to people. But my friends and family haven't chose that. So when they watch it or when they hear things and I have to kind of witness their hurt, I suppose. Me, I can take it, you know, say what you want about me. might not be nice and it's frustrating but when I have to watch them see my character assassinated

it's tough because they know you yeah they know me and we get to know who you are through this book as well um so what comes across what came across to me you had unrelenting drive and determination from as young as 10 tell us more I think I recognized that I was a little bit different from from a young age um I felt like I never really fit in anywhere for one reason or another. I think my experiences at school isolated me and kind of highlighted that. But I think if anything, I was really grounded by my love for football. And I think I feel very lucky that I had that because I think if I hadn't have had that,

I'm not really sure where those experiences would have sent me. But I think that having football and something to concentrate on and look forward to at the end of every day, yeah, it gave me a real purpose. And at 10, you created a storybook about you winning the world. at 10? Yeah, you know what? I'm going to try and go back home and search for these stories in the attic.

But I remember, I could remember it clear as day now, like sitting in the bay window on this plastic seat. And I used to take paper out of my dad's printer and I would just, I would draw the same goal on the front. And it would be the same story every time. I was like obsessed with writing. And I guess that was the way I expressed myself. But yeah, it was always the dream to be a footballer

before it was even a possible reality. Some people might describe that as manifesting it. You know what? I'm all about manifestation, actually. So I would go with that. How does that work for you then? I believe that energy is a big thing in this world. I think one of my hardest things that I learned as a kid was like hard work pays off. It doesn't.

Just because you work hard, should I say, doesn't mean you're going to get what you want. Doesn't mean you're going to get what you think you should get. And I feel like that was the biggest myth for me that I had to bust and get my head round, the injustice of why I work so hard. I don't understand where I'm not, where I'm supposed to be or where I feel I should be. But what I do believe is that

if you go forth with the best intentions, your heart, your best energy, the desire, the passion, I do believe you'll end up somewhere great. I just don't know where that will be. And I think that, you know, that comes into manifestation and speaking positively and believing in yourself

and surrounding yourself by people who challenge you and environments that challenge you and bring the best out of you. and yeah, this is all very good advice. I'm completely with you. Self-bullief is so important. Something you just mentioned I'm going to pick up on

because you describe in the book your childhood in Nottingham and you say it's very idyllic and your parents sound amazing, taking you and your siblings to absolutely everything. You got to experience lots of different things before picking football, but you also got to experience bullying at school. Yes. And you're only 12, but then you moved schools.

So how did that experience shape you? I think there was two big parts of it The first one was Yeah it teaches you pretty early on The cruelties of life, I think It's sort of like, why me? Why is this happening to me? And I think it teaches you

Maybe how you want to be treated, how other people should be treated And I think, you know, I think I struggled at first with Who do I want to be? Like, you know, how am I going to behave? But the other part of it was I can move.

I can take myself out of this situation. situation. And I did. I found the courage to do so. I was really scared that it was just going to be more of the same. And to be honest, I didn't share with my parents who I think did give me a really fantastic childhood. I couldn't have wanted for anything. And they took me to every activity going. I wouldn't be in this position without them. But I didn't share, because of my upbringing, you know, I didn't share my feelings so much. So I think when my mum found out about it, she was keen to move me instantly. But I was very reluctant because the schools were very close. in location. I thought, well, how different could it be? Surely it's just going to be the same kids? And I'm sort of finding my feet here and I'm keeping my head down a little bit and some days aren't so bad. But I think that experience, you know, in summary was I moved and I had a much better experience at the new school that I went to

because I had the bravery to say, no, I don't want this for myself anymore. We've got to talk about football. We do. Why goalkeeping? Short answer is I saved a penalty in the first game and loved it. The long version of that is I made a save We were taking our stint in goal It was my rotation I was the first one

And at first I didn't get it I was bored I was cartwheeling around the goal Confused as to why I wasn't where the action was And when I could quickly, you know, change shirts So I could play in a more exciting position As the kids saw it And yeah, I saved a penalty

And I loved the feeling I absolutely loved it Diving around in the mud making a save The buzz of it, the thrill of it And literally from that moment on I trained as a goalkeeper. It's such a lonely position, but a crucial position. I think you're the most important.

They're the most important, really. Give us a bit more into the mindset of being a goal in that lonely space. Yeah, it's very isolated. It's a sport within a sport. That's what I would say. I don't know if Karen Bardley said it best. She said that our role is to defeat the purpose of the entire game. We're meant, you know, the idea is to score and we're there to stop you from scoring.

So, you know, it's a tough position, it's misunderstood, it's heavily criticised, and of course everyone thinks they can do it better than you can. So, yeah, it's of course difficult, but, you know, it's also really beautiful. I think it's very complicated. I think it's unique in so many ways and I think it's great how everyone can do it so differently. One of the most electric bits in the book is right at the beginning when you describe the heroic penalty save against Jenny Hamosa in the 69th minute of the World Cup final.

Take us into your mind because I loved how you described it. for that moment in time, you had been working up towards that. Yeah. I think it's hard to put into words. I think that's what I kind of describe in the book is all the work that had gone into that moment and being as present as possible in that moment. And knowing that I'd done all the preparation,

the training, the work mentally and physically to be able to cope with the pressure of that. And I think that it paid off. I think it was a moment that was very quick and blurry and chaotic and then it felt like an eternal wait to get the decision from the ref whether the penalty was going to be given. And then as soon as the whistle was, you know, was blown and pointed to the penalty spot,

I knew what I was going to do. Your England career could be described as a roller coaster, the highest of highs, as we just described, but sometimes low to, and in 2020 you were dropped from the team. How did that feel? Terrible. It felt like my world was crumbling. I think it sent me on a really difficult spiral

for the kind of following year and a half, I would say, of really rediscovering myself, who I wanted to be. Yeah, and it had consequences, you know, in my life and my career and decisions I had to make and the way I went about things. And I look back now and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. But I think I used it. I was able to use it in a way that has, you know,

put me in good stead for the rest of my life. Well, and then in 2021, things changed. New England manager, Serena Vigman, says she wants you in the team. What did that mean to you? Everything. I think I was trying to deny in my mind

that when Serena got announced as the new manager and, you know, it's a fresh start, a new era. I think I was trying to bury deep down inside myself that, you know, I'm not really that bothered. You know, my England career's dead. It's done. It is what it is. I tried my best, but I wasn't good enough.

And there's nothing to be ashamed of if you give your everything and you just fall short. that moment where I get that email, I was so, so happy. It really felt like, yeah, I'd been rewarded for kind of knuckling down and for persevering. But really, I was just happy to be in the squad. I had no idea what was to come. You write about your difficult decision to retire from England in May just before the Euros, which you said was something that Serena didn't want you to do. It wasn't a popular decision. We've talked about that. Can you explain why you came to that decision? Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of what the book talks about a little bit.

It talks about all the factors that were building up to that, that there was sort of over a year of heartache and backwards and forwards and difficult conversations. You know, there was difficult dynamics to navigate. But ultimately, I was brought back to the same result that I kept feeling or the decision that I kept feeling was the right one, which was, look, this is this is the right time to step aside. I do think it was a bold decision to make and I don't shy away from that, but I think it's one that took great courage and I think in the end the way I look at it is the team did fantastically well. They went on and won their back-to-back heroes. Serena won her third consecutive. You know, I then also was able to take care of myself mentally and physically

undergo some medical treatment and take care of myself, etc. And I feel like everybody won. And I'm so delighted that the girls won and that women's football can continue to go to strength the strength in this country and that's you know and improve those conditions for future generations tell us about the support that you got um speak to my psychologist and really dig deep on certain situations and process certain things which wasn't easy i think the book in itself was therapy to write if i'm being honest uh i think it helped me process things quicker than i would have but there's still a lot to go and is that is that interesting of relationship with Serena?

I think that was more to do with, you know, my decision as a whole and kind of where I felt I was in my life and embarking on a bit of a transition, I think, is also scary. And then I was also able to seek some fertility treatment as well, which is something I'd been wanting to do for some time. And hopefully one day I can, yeah, I can be a mother. And that was a big part of it too. I mean, you do open up a lot about your own personal life and your relationship, in particularly relationship with Kitty, who you're with.

Why did you want to talk about that? I didn't, to be honest. I didn't. I'm very much somebody who wants to keep my personal and professional life very separate. That's always been a theme. You know, I've been approached to write a book many, many times. And I felt like this was, you know, the right moment to do so where I'd maybe achieved enough, if you like, in my mind,

to be able to give something back to the people who'd supported me. And I felt that it would be, it's remissent the right word? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm trying to be too fancy. but I feel like it wouldn't have been authentic to not acknowledge the most important relationship in my life. You also talk about your struggles that you've had with body confidence, the challenges you face during lockdown and also having panic attacks.

Manchester United, who you're playing with, put you in touch, the clinical psychologist. You say this is one of the best things they did for you. One million percent. I think that that is my, of all the things I did at Manchester United, the incredible memories that I made, the FA Cup we won, and other things that we achieved together, the records we broke, them putting me in touch with the person who I still speak to now,

I think changed my life. I think it changed the way I view myself, the way I'm able to conduct myself and mostly articulate myself and communicate, I think mostly in times of distress or where I'm maybe trying to say, hey, listen, I feel a little bit disrespected or I feel a little bit upset by that.

I think previously I was never able to articulate that I just put up and shut up. I think as women we do that a lot as well. We just kind of accept the bare minimum and we never vocalise when we might feel we should yeah stick up for ourselves and I think yeah that support was invaluable. You're right it's something that we talk about on this program a lot we talk about how you deal with situations in various workplaces and your relationship with Serena Vigman you say in the book the words and actions didn't match and I know longer felt supported there. So how do you reflect on her role in your career, but also how do you reflect on how you've coped and dealt with that relationship? My relationship with

Serena, I hope, will always, you know, will span a lifetime. I think that I will always have an incredible amount of admiration for the opportunity she gave me. I have a tremendous amount of respect for her. That hasn't changed because of a situation where the reality of it is we were experiencing things differently. We had. different perspectives, which happens in relationships, friendships, any kind of relationship. And I think that we shouldn't shy away from that. It's okay to disagree. It's okay to have different points of view.

But it's important to communicate them and be honest and be authentic. And I think that that was a theme throughout our relationship. We shared a vulnerability in our first moment. And I think that gave us a real connection. But the reality of it is relationships are up, down there's good moments and there's and there's not so good moments um you know there was times where she had to give me some honest feedback about certain things and there was times where i gave her honest feedback and that's what makes a a great relationship is the ability to be honest

you mentioned wonderfully that you want to become a mum at some point i would love to and starting the process of freezing your eggs yes i mean i think what's scary when obviously i play football and I love it. My body goes through a lot on a day-to-day basis. I have no idea if I'm able. I hope I am. I guess that's, I don't know if anybody else shares that fear, but I do. I have done at regular times in my career where I'm thinking, well, I don't know if this will happen for me. Will my body be able to? You know, it's, and I was, I'm hoping that, yeah, by taking those steps in fertility treatment, it sort of, first of all, allows me to play football for a little bit longer and know that I've got that in for when I would like to use it. Yeah, that's kind of the plan. Because you're currently playing for Paris Saint-Germain in the Premier League? Yeah, it's an incredible team. And, yeah, I feel very lucky to play there. But I just love football.

That's what my teammates say to me, they just go, you just love football, don't you? If I didn't, I think I would have stopped by now, you know? I've done more than I could have ever imagined more than I ever thought possible. I want to play it for as long as possible. There's more things I want to do. I'm very ambitious. I'm always thinking about the next thing. So what is that?

I just want to keep pushing my level. I think that I'm trying to leave the game in a better place. That's what I'm also trying to do with this book is show women that you don't have to fit in a box. You can go about your career in your own way and you can be honest and authentic and hopefully be celebrated for that and not chastised for that.

I'm trying to do things for goalkeeping in this country all over the world and yeah, trying to make sure that future generations don't face the same obstacles that I did. Mary Earps there and her autobiography all in football life and learning to be unapologetically me is out now. So much wisdom in the program today. So many empowering women.

I hope you've been taking notes. We're also talking about telly because it's a top night of TV this evening on BBC One, race across the world and then the traitors. So there might be a few TV dinners. So I've asked you to take a trip down memory lane and tell me about moments that you remember watching TV with your family. Penny's been in touch to say as a teenager back in about 1970. I remember watching the snow goose on television with my parents.

It was the first and possibly only time I saw my father cry. Another one here. My dad used to, still does at 67, work 60 to 70 hours a week. The only afternoon evening he was home was Sunday. He cooked a spag ball, the only night he cooked. And we watched last of the summer wine and the antiques road show. Dad is an auctioneer. It was my fondest memory of us all being in the house together.

The most significant family viewing, I recall, was the Moonland. says someone else here. We gathered around at black and white TV. I was seven. And my takeaway was I thought the moon didn't look as exciting as the Hollywood version. And my five-year-old was completely disinterested, she says. And another one here, my best memory is watching Dallas with my grandma in her room.

She had in our house back in the 1980s to find out who shot JR. We were so hooked. South Fork Ranch was so exotic. And back to our very first guest that we had on the program this morning, Cat Burns, a message saying, Cat, you beautiful human being, thank you for giving permission to close the doors and say, no, I need this time to stop the burnout happening.

It's one thing to say we need it, it's another to model it. Thank you from Carmen on the cusp of burnout. Carmen, give yourself some rest, do what you need to do. That's it from me. Join me tomorrow, as I'll be joined by the grand arm of musical theatre. Elaine Page will be here to talk about how she's fostering the next generation of musical theatre talent. That's all for today's woman's hour.

Join us again next time. As part of Limelight from BBC Radio 4, this is The Betrayed, the story of a family torn apart by a political extremism sweeping across Europe. You see this guy in the red t-shirt? I'd allowed myself to believe

that this moment would never come. Do you remember the looters outside the sports shop last year? The one guy who'd let his scar slip? I think that's him. My brother Frank, Standing with a group of angry men shouting abuse at the police. Is it the same guy? I now knew that Frank was an anti-immigrant activist.

Listen to the whole series right now. First on BBC Sounds.