Woman's Hour - Cate Blanchett on Glenda Jackson, Susanna Hoffs, Yasmeen Lari, Power Lister Jo Tongue, Eco-grief, Lisa Squire

Episode Date: June 17, 2023

Thousands of people gathered together on Thursday night to attend a vigil for those killed in the Nottingham attacks. The mothers of the murdered teenagers Grace O’Malley Kumar and Barnaby Webber both paid tribute to their children. Clare speaks to another mother who lost her child to murder, Lisa Squire.Dr Laura Flexer, GP, emailed Woman’s Hour to ask the programme to talk about bone health, especially that of teenage girls with anorexia. Should young women with eating disorders be given oestrogen to boost bone density? Dr Flexer joins Nuala to talk about her research, along with Professor Sandeep Ranote, an expert clinical media spokesperson for the eating disorders charity BEAT and a consultant paediatric psychiatrist for eating disorders in the NHS.Yasmeen Lari, Pakistan's first female architect, talks to Nuala about being awarded the Royal Gold Medal for Architecture 2023, her work in disaster zones and helping the poorest communities impacted by climate change.The actor Cate Blanchett joins Clare to celebrate the work and life of Glenda Jackson, actor and MP who died this week.Jo Tongue is a sports agent who represents some of the best known sporting and broadcasting talent in the UK, including England footballer Leah Williamson. She is vocal in her push for parity of the profile and pay for women in sport - both on the pitch and in the media. For this reason, Jo earned herself a place on the Woman’s Hour Women in Sport Power List earlier this year. She joins Nuala to tell her about her career to date in a male dominated industry.A growing number of people are experiencing what psychiatrists have labelled eco-anxiety or eco-grief, an overwhelming sense of hopeless and doom due to the current climate situation. So what exactly is the impact on people and how can we turn the tables and help people to feel more hopeful about the environment? Krupa is joined by climate scientist turned campaigner Jen Newall from the Climate Majority Project, and Judy Ling Wong CBE, President of the Black Environment Network.Susanna Hoffs is a solo artist and a founding member of the Bangles. She joins Nuala to discuss her career and her first novel – This Bird Has Flown – described as "part British romcom, part Jane Eyre” – which gives a glimpse inside the music business.Presenter: Clare McDonell Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and a very warm welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, the programme each week where we gather together the best bits of Woman's Hour from the week gone by and put them all in one place for you. Coming up this afternoon, Kate Blanchett will share her memories of the late, great Glenda Jackson. And Susanna Hoffs, co-founder of The Bangles,

tells us about her debut novel. It was so transporting to be in the world of fictional characters that I love, whose voices would just start talking to me and I just had to bottle what they were saying. And of course, I had to craft the story of this one hit wonder who kind of goes on a journey to kind of find redemption in all ways in her life, including love.

Plus, Woman's Hour powerlister Jo Tung, sports agent and broadcaster extraordinaire on the changes in women's football and what needs to be done next. And we'll hear from Pakistan's first ever female architect about her career working in a man's world. I think if there were more women supporting more women, then things will change. And this is what happened with me as well.

I've had support of women. And so I think this has to be done if you want women to be able to do the things that they really want to do. And they need the support from everybody, really. And do you get worried about climate change? Does it impact your everyday life? Well, we'll be hearing from two environmental campaigners

about the growing number of people suffering from so-called eco-grief or climate anxiety. But first, thousands of people gathered together on Thursday night to attend a vigil for those killed in the Nottingham attacks. Grace O'Malley Kumar and Barnaby Weber, both 19 and students at Nottingham University, and Ian Coates, who was 65, were all stabbed to death on Tuesday morning. The families of those killed shared tributes to their loved ones and messages of love conquering hate. Let's hear from Barnaby's mother, Emma Weber, and Grace's mother, Sinead O'Malley Kumar. When he was accepted on his place to study here in only August of last year, he was so bloody chuffed. He loved reading history, but I think actually he loved being part of the cricket

team more. To his teammates, I can see you. We thank you for all you have done. One day we will smile again, but it will take time. Thank you for being here. Thank you for showing your love for our babies. My beautiful baby girl. She wasn't just beautiful on the outside. She was so beautiful on the inside. She was a treasured and adored child. She wanted to be a doctor.

She wanted to have fun. And all they were doing was walking home. They were just walking home after a night out. Say prayers for my baby girl. The voices of Sinead O'Malley Kumar and Emma Webber. Someone who knows what they're going through only too well is Lisa Squire. Her daughter Libby was abducted and murdered whilst walking home from a club in her university city of Hull in 2019.

Yesterday, I spoke to Lisa and she told me why speaking out in tribute can be a good thing. When Libby was missing, the University of Hull had a vigil for Libby and it was really important for me that I went there and, you know, to actually just to show our thanks to everybody who was looking for her and who was supporting her while she was missing and again we had a vigil back at home in the village two weeks after she had gone missing and that was really important for me because I knew everybody that came there so you know the the overwhelming sort of outpouring of love for her really lifted our spirits and helped us through

and I guess talking as you can do when when you go to these events talking to other people they're talking to friends sharing that chaos and misunderstanding and confusion of feelings is good not only for you but for everybody else who's going through a similar thing. Yes, yes. It was nice to be able to speak to, you know, her closest friends and people who knew her and make sure they were OK, because that was really important. Libby would have wanted to make sure her friends were all OK. So, you know, being able to talk to them was quite cathartic, really. Yeah, it was really helpful. You had two stages, clearly, as you've just outlined. There was a point when she was missing, where it was very public. And then there was the point at which you found out what had actually happened to her. Did you feel after, when you knew that the catastrophic ending to that story, that you wanted to retreat?

Was it still important to keep in the public eye? It, for me, I became very protective over her memory. I knew that what was going to come out sort of over the trial period and, you know, subsequent times was going to be very, was going to be very was going to be very public and lily was an intensely private person so i knew that she would not like that so once her body had been found it wasn't that i didn't want anybody else being interested but i became incredibly protective of her um so it's a bit of a double-edged sword really because you're incredibly

grateful to everybody and um for what they have what they have done and the support they're still giving you. But I found that period of time much more challenging. Because you are dealing with your grief and that must be incredibly difficult to process that, but also, as you say, wanting to protect your daughter's memory, but clearly the way in which she died as well, wanting to shine a light on that complete travesty. Yes, yes. It's very, you know, even now, you know, I sit and think, oh, should I be doing this because she wouldn't like it? But I think, no, actually, this is different. This is about learning from what happened to Libby and she would want that I base everything I do now on what Libby would have wanted um but you are still very you know I had a reporter yesterday who wanted some new photographs of her that doesn't happen because they're mine and that's private and that's you know I I I do like to retreat back into my oneness with her so to speak um. Yeah, it's tricky.

It's really tricky. And every day you have a different emotion. And sometimes you can go up and down three or four times in an hour. You know, you don't know how you're going to feel from one minute to the next. It's incredibly hard. And we have to thank you immensely for doing this interview, because here we are, you know, in another incredibly tragic week. I was there in Nottingham myself reporting on it on Tuesday.

And the enormity of something like that hits you as a journalist as well when you stand witness to something like that. And yet you must have known your phone was going to ring, that people may be getting in touch with you. Does it help when talking about it again when such awful things happen? Yes. I mean, it's been for nearly four and a half years for us now and I have got very used to talking about it. I just, I always say, you know, I'm just a mum from Wickham who, but if someone can listen to something that I say,

it gives them comfort or helps them, then that can only be a good thing. But yeah, you do know every time something sadly happens to a student or a girl walking home that you'll get the phone call to see if you want to talk about it. And it keeps Libby alive by talking about her. It keeps her alive. So yeah, it's important. When you see those parents, and we all watch the pictures

and we've just heard from the tribute yesterday, they have been thrown together as two families. And I'm talking about the students and of course, Ian Coates, the caretaker at the local school, he's there as well. How will they help one another, do you think, at this time? By having somebody else who understands how they are feeling um we obviously had lots of friends around us and family um but nobody actually truly understands how you're feeling unless they've lost a child so i imagine having you know another couple in the same situation will be you know they can, they have a commonality between them.

And I think that will be really helpful because they won't feel so alone. You know, they will have someone, they'll be able to talk about what happened because as it happens, you know, when the event happens, you talk about it constantly, constantly, constantly. They'll have somebody else who understands that, which I think will be helpful for them. And you just said, finally, Lisa, that every day is a journey and you don't know how you're really going to feel from one minute to the next.

If you could say anything to those families just starting this journey, what would you say to them? Just what I found most helpful was just focusing on my daughter, you know, and focus on their son and daughter. Um, you don't expect too much, you know, everybody wants you to be better. Everybody wants you to be, go back to your, how you used to be. You'll never go back there. Um, I'd love to say it gets easier with time. It doesn't, it changes with time and you learn to grow around it.

Um, and, and you can have a good life again but it's different um and you know I think just take you know if you're able to take it day by day in the very early days I was taking it minute by minute you know and and just you know focus on the love you've got for your children because that is the most important thing. Lisa Squire, mother of Libby, who was abducted and murdered in 2019. Now, how much do you know about your bones and the health of your bones? NHSGP Dr Laura Flexer emailed the programme to ask us to talk about bone health and especially that of teenage girls with anorexia. According to her research, young women with the eating disorder can lose bone mass, a problem that can persist even long after they've addressed anorexia and which can lead in the long term to osteoporosis. So Dr. Flexer asks, should teens be offered oestrogen as a preventative measure?

She joined NULA along with Professor Sandeep Ranaut, a clinical spokesperson for the eating disorder charity BEAT, who is also a consultant paediatric psychiatrist for eating disorders. For adolescent girls, we go through a phase of rapid bone accrual, so bone gain, in our late teens into early 20s. So that time people could be affected. Exactly. And that is a really crucial stage for bone development. But what you're talking about is raising the question about oestrogen.

Why could it be or how could it be used as a treatment or a preventative measure? What would it do? Because there may be alarm bells if people just hear that sentence. Sure. So anorexia is a devastating condition whereby low body mass causes the body to go into sort of a conservation mode

where some biological processes are shut down. And one of those is the hormonal axis that stimulates the ovary to produce oestrogen. So in girls with severe anorexia where their periods stop, this becomes a low oestrogen state. And as you've just mentioned, Nuala, average age of onset is about 15.

Recovery can take years and years. And so if you think about the importance of oestrogen in that really crucial bone development stage for these teenage girls and young women in their 20s, that low oestrogen insult on the bone and that crucial stage of bone development can have long lasting impact on bone density for the rest of their lives and hugely increase the risk of osteoporosis. And the statistics around osteoporosis are truly shocking. Well, let me turn to Sandeep there. Laura's mentioned there isn't, she's surprised there's not more general take up or interest from eating disorder charities

like this. Why do you think that's the case? Do you think maybe just not aware? Bone health within eating disorders is often, although it's talked about, isn't necessarily where the focus lies of both training, research and funding. So one of the things I talk about is I'm so pleased, I'm so glad the consideration of anything that is going to help an illness that is hugely complicated, still actually poorly understood in terms of etiology and causes where we've made huge advances in our understanding genetics neurophysiology neuroanatomy but we're still not there so what i what i am really keen to do is better research we're years and years of under-resourced research in this area better training and i think laura brings that out in laura and her colleagues bring that out massively in her paper and that's not just for doctors in primary and secondary care, that's for

healthcare professionals. We again have made progress, but not enough. And training, research and funding. So your question about are we doing and considering in specialist services, and if we're not, why not? We are, but but probably not enough so it depends on the configuration of your services in terms of the skill mix in our services for instance we work very much in collaboration with our paediatric endocrinologists I think it's got to be a multidisciplinary decision really important and using the evidence-based frameworks so where we can and where where our framework allows us to we we absolutely should be having those conversations to help families and young people make informed decisions and i'm wondering i'm wondering about

that sandeep though because we've talked about anorexia a lot in this program and even i spoke to hadley freeman not so long ago and there was so much emphasis on survival to be quite honest you know for somebody to make it through day to day and I don't think there was perhaps always correct me if I'm wrong but that more long-term thinking about the potential physical impacts of anorexia. Would that be fair, Sandeep? So, yeah, I think it's a fair comment. It's changing. And with greater awareness, COVID also has shone a massive spotlight,

particularly in this age group. Post-lockdown in this country, we saw up to a threefold increase in presentations with anorexia. Laura makes also a really good point. You know, it's delivery method, skin, transdermal versus oral. What dose, what duration and what cohort of young people

do we have the best evidence? Let me turn back to you, Laura, though, because people will be concerned and people might be thinking, HRT, hang on, I usually need to take progesterone with my oestrogen and stuff like that. But this is oestrogen only. And what would some of the negative potentials be?

So actually, it's not oestrogen only. So it's given as HRTs, it's given a cyclical HRT with a progesterone cyclically. So that person... As well. Okay. Yep, yep, yep. So we wouldn't be able to give oestrogen only to a woman with a womb. You know, I think really the one of the really important points here is looking to the to the ahead in that person's life, when they hopefully do recover from anorexia to just, you know, underline that the devastating consequences of osteoporosis. And what we found when we looked at, we looked at some case studies across a few GP practices locally, and the women who had had a certain type of scan called the DEXA scan to look at their bones were by and large women who had recovered from anorexia and had a normal body mass for many, many years,

but still had developed osteoporosis from having had an eating disorder in their adolescence. And the impact of that really is huge. So in a woman over 50, their risk of dying following a hip fracture is actually the same as their risk of dying from breast cancer. And yet we talk so much about breast cancer. And understandably, that's an enormous risk for women. But we don't talk about osteoporosis. In hip fractures are particularly devastating. And following a hip fracture, 20 to 25% will die within the first year. And up to half of these people will never live independently again. So the morbidity and mortality that ensues from osteoporosis is massive.

I know when we've spoken about anorexia previously on the programme, so many people got in touch that, you know, had gone through it or perhaps had a loved one that was going through it or went through it. What can they do now? So in terms of if you are struggling with anorexia? Well, we could talk about that very briefly, perhaps. Should they go to their GP? Yeah. So the really important thing I wanted to come and talk about today is awareness, is to ask that question. Go and say to your healthcare professional, to your GP, probably your first port of call, or if you're under the eating disorder service, and say, can you help me to talk about my bone health? Are you thinking about my bone health?

Do I need a DEXA scan? Which is a bone scan. Which is a special bone scan to look at my bone health. I've heard that there's something that I might be able to have that could protect my bones during my period of recovery from anorexia that will reduce my risk of osteoporosis later on in my life. What else can I do for my bone health? And I think that's the first step is to ask the question.

Dr Laura Flexer and Professor Sandeep Ranaut speaking to Nuala and if you or a loved one are struggling with anorexia help and support resources can be found on the Woman's Hour website. Now at the beginning of the week Nuala spoke to the remarkable Yasmeen Laree widely known as Pakistan's first female architect. She's renowned for her humanitarian work and activism. Her career has spanned four decades. And in 2005, the earthquake in Pakistan led her to focus on the most vulnerable, poor communities, helping them to build sustainable structures in disaster hit zones. At the age of 82, she is only the second woman to be awarded the RIBA

Royal Gold Medal for Architecture in recognition of her life's work. She told Nuala how it felt to get the award. Well, of course, it's a great honour, but also it came as a total surprise because I no longer work in the way that, you know, these big shot architects do, and I'd given up my practice many years ago. So I never thought I would ever, you know, I never thought of this as being something that would be, I would be considered for an award like this. But of course, I'm hoping that through this, it opens up the canvas, it stretches the canvas really to include many other kind of practices rather than just working for the elite and the 1% who are wealthy and privileged. Because this

would mean that now architects will be getting involved, I'm hoping, in many other kinds of architecture, if you like, which is to do with disparities, which is to do with climate change and all the rest of it. Do you think that that sort of architecture was given the kudos of those big corporate buildings, for example? I heard you called a starkitect to instead the barefoot architect. Yes, of course. I mean, I've gone through that phase and I found that, you know, of course, it was wonderful and heady at the time and I enjoyed every bit of it. But I found a time came when I thought, well, you know, I need to change course. And I was able to do that with work with

UNESCO. And then later on, when the earthquake occurred, to finally see where really, you know, really the task lay to be able to help people who have nothing and how you can build up their lives through design and through architecture. And do you think that's possible? Because we often hear when there is a natural disaster, that the structures just were not at the level that could have ever withstood, whether it's an earthquake, whether it's a flood, you know, we hear it again and again. Yes, you're absolutely right. Because it's really not, it's often said, it's not the disasters that kill people, it's the buildings that kill people. And we have to use materials that will mean that they will be safe, even when a disaster occurs. And my attempt today is to see how I can, I can just avoid displacement for all these millions of people whenever a disaster strikes. And if we could build structures that are climate resilient, and if everybody learned and we could teach them, then they'll be safe and women and children will be safe.

And this is the part of your work, which is so fascinating. So instead of building those structures going in, you are trying to empower the community that is affected to be able to create those structures themselves instead of the traditional charitable model. Absolutely. I think the international colonial charity model doesn't work anymore because it's like giving, you know, keep on giving handouts to people. And I don't believe in that. I think the barefoot social architecture, my attempt is to see how we could make them self-reliant so that they fend for themselves. And so they learn the techniques, how to survive, rather than things being given to them.

And I think, especially after the disaster of 2022 last year, when we have 33 million people that are displaced and they have nothing today. So we have to get to them somehow. It's a huge number. There are 3 million households, which is really large. It's looking to the span of your career. It's so interesting where architecture has been and where it's going. Also, of course, you are a woman. This is a field that is male dominated in so many parts of the world. And I read, you know, that you thought perhaps it's even tougher for female architects in the UK than it was for you in Pakistan when you were growing up. Why so?

Well, I think the first generation of professionals, like I belong to one of them, and I think we came from privileged backgrounds, we had education, we had everything going for us. And we didn't find the difficulty that I think a lot of women do in countries like yours. And of course, there were difficulties. Whenever you fight for a cause, if you're a woman, you are more vulnerable. And I did face that. But the fact is that in my country,

in many other countries, there are so many injustices, and you have to fight against it. So everything comes with the territory. If you are taking up causes, then you must be ready for any kind of difficulties. But why do you think architecture remains such a male-dominated field? Well, of course, it's a very long discussion then, isn't it, really? I think women have not had the chance to be able to prove themselves for generations. And somehow they work so hard, they carry all the burdens. And still, people feel

that they are not quite up to breaking the glass ceiling. And I think that's unfair. But I think the world is changing. I think there are a lot of people who are now men who are supporting women's, you know, movement, and they're kind of taking them ahead. But still, because the networking that you need in any profession that happens with men. And so that's what's important for women to do now. So you don't feel the networking of architects is there in the for women the way that it is for men. So that's perhaps something a starting point to change. I think if there were more women supporting more women, then things will change. And this is what happened with me as well. I've had support of women.

And even today, when you look at the Royal Gold Medal, it's because a women's group nominated me. And so I think this has to be done if you want women to, you know, be able to do the thing that they really want to do. And they need the support from everybody, really, from the family as well, I must say. Without that also, it doesn't happen. Did you have that? I had it all the way. Yes, I was very, very lucky all the way. Yasmeen Lariva, who has been awarded the RIBA Royal Gold Medal for Architecture, talking to Nuala. Still to come on the programme, The Bangles, Susanna Hoffs on her debut novel and why she chose to write it instead of going on tour. Plus, a growing number of people are suffering from what

psychiatrists are calling eco-anxiety. Find out what it is and how to combat it. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. if you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just head to BBC Sounds and search Woman's Hour. Many people from the world of show business and politics have been paying tribute to Glenda Jackson, the two-time Oscar-winning actress turned Labour MP who died this week at the age of 87. She said she only started acting after failing her school certificate, leaving her no option but to start working at the age of 16. She gave up a hugely successful acting career and became a Labour MP for some 23 years, even serving as a junior transport minister in Tony Blair's government. One of her most iconic roles was playing Queen Elizabeth I, for which she received many awards.

Another actor who has played that role is Cate Blanchett. I spoke to her and she told me how much influence Glenda's Elizabeth had on her own. I almost said no to the project. Who was I? I was a stage actress from Sydney who'd barely made one film. But I almost said no and the reason why is I'd seen her television version, and I said, it's been done. What more could I possibly add to the conversation when Glenda Jackson has already played the role? Obviously, Flora Robson, many other people had inhabited her

in many different styles of film, but I felt that it was so complete and so rich and so deep, and it was indelibly etched on my mind. I thought it was an act of hubris taking it on after she had played the role. So yes, absolutely. But then what it gave rise to, speaking that, wasn't a fear so much. It was an act of deference and reverence, I think, me saying that. It then forged a very hearty, robust conversation with the director about why we were bothering to make the film in the first place.

So I constantly thought about her when I was playing the role both times. And in a way that she presented herself in that role specifically was so immersive. And the way she sort of, even simple things like cutting her hairline back in the way that she presented herself in that role specifically was so immersive and and and the way she sort of even simple things like cutting her hairline back in the way that she did she looked absolutely brutal do you think that changed the game i stole that i stole that little yes i beg borrow and steal from glenn jackson all the time but she didn't try to look any way attractive in the roles if the role required it which was a kind of requirement and still is to a certain extent put on a lot of actresses. She forged her own path, didn't she?

I think that she did. She didn't appear to be. I only met her in passing twice. But I don't, unfortunately, never knew her. But you got the sense that she wasn't bound by any convention as a performer and was liberated by conventional sense of what beauty was, which, of course, is on everyone's lips now, but at the time that she was beginning to work, it wasn't. But she was, I mean, her allure, she was incredibly attractive and utilized that when she beginning to work, it wasn't. But she was, I mean, her allure,

she was incredibly attractive and utilised that when she needed to. I mean, if you think about her performance in The Maids, you know, she was absolutely magnetic and sexually charged and, you know, but it was always twinned with, she felt like she was in control of that and she was always harnessing it, harnessing it,

however she looked in service of the part and her part within the whole, which was the play or the film. A tribute to one great from another, Kate Blanchett talking to me there about the late Glenda Jackson. And we had a brilliant email from Verity. She said this, Hi, enjoying the tributes to Glenda Jackson. I had the extraordinary experience of interviewing her with my friend when we were studying drama at uni.

She opened the dressing room door completely naked from the waist up and continued to put her stage makeup on just like that for the entirety of the interview. She was articulate, direct and slightly terrifying to naive students, but most of all, so thoroughly generous to have agreed to let these two eager young women into her private space prior to a performance. I will never forget it or her, that tribute from Verity. Now, by now, you probably will have heard, if not seen, of the Women's Hour Women in Sport Power List. 30 women who are changing the way women's sport is played, seen and represented for the better.

One of the categories we included was amplifiers. We wanted to recognise those women working to elevate the status of women's sport in our society. And Jo Tong embodies this perfectly. Number 22 on the list, Jo represents some of the best sporting and broadcasting talent in the UK, including the woman who topped our power list, England player Leah Williamson. Now, with the highly anticipated Women's World Cup just around the corner and news this week that women's Super League wages

and club revenues are on the rise. Jo has seen the evolution of the women's game at first hand. She joined Nuala and told her how her love of football started at a very early age. When I was 16, 17, we had the home Euros. So this is 1996, which shows my age. And I wrote to the FA and I just wanted to work at the Euros. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to work in football. It was my passion.

It was what I loved. So I wrote to the FA and said, please, could I have a job? I'll be finishing my A-levels that summer. Please, could I just, I'll do anything. Please, could I have a job? And somehow my letter got passed on to UEFA and UEFA got in touch and they gave me a job at the Euros, which was amazing. So I was 17 years old, but the Euros tournament started while my A-level exams were still going on which was fine and um my parents were so supportive

bless them but there was one afternoon exam where we had a night game and I obviously had to be at Wembley I can't remember say it was four o'clock and we didn't have the tube in those days so it was quite a long journey to Wembley from my house in South London um so yeah I remember finishing my A-level paper and sticking my hand up and going I'm done and they were like are you really done yep definitely done and so I could leave and I just remember running down to the station um and getting starting the journey across um across London to get to Wembley for one of the games. Worth it? It turned out all right, didn't it? Completely worth it. Sorry, Mum. Sorry, Dad. But, you know, maybe it'll give also some people

going through the A-levels today a bit of a smile as well. But you began your media career at the BBC, starting as a reporter, moving into TV and radio and editing Five Lives flagship football programme 606 for 10 years. But I think you must have been the only woman in the room at times. So often the only woman in the room at times so often the only woman in the room and um it's one of the reasons that we set up women in football which I'm a director and board member of um so many years ago because you know I was 21 years old and you'd be going to a press conference or going to a game and I didn't know anyone um so everyone's you know there's a press pack and you know they they work very closely together

and it's an amazing thing to be part of. But when you're not part of it, it can be really daunting. So you'd walk into a room and often you'd be mistaken for the tea lady or you'd be asked where, you know, the team sheets were or you just weren't included. What did you do in those instances? I think I just say, oh, I'm actually here to work for BBC Sport. Or just sort of sometimes I'd laugh it off and sometimes I'd be sort of adamant and say, oh, no, sorry, that's I'm not here for that. But let me find you the person who is. But it did make you feel uncomfortable.

And just just things as a woman that, you know, men don't have to think about, like what you wear. What did you wear? I always used to wear a black polo neck. Just just never used to like you just don't want to draw attention to yourself, which is awful. Whereas now I'm very, I'm much more. In really bright colours. Always. And you know, I do my hair, I do my makeup.

But I think when I was growing up and less sure of myself, I almost didn't want to draw attention to myself. And I'd be like, I'm just going to be really good at my job. And then hopefully that will do the talking for me. And people almost won't notice me, but they'll notice my work. I feel I have to say to radio, because they'll always be like, what is she wearing? OK, she's a white jacket on, she's kind of a lime green top and emerald green trousers.

Sunny, fun. So, yeah, we set up Women in Football because it was exactly that. You'd get to a press room and you just almost needed someone who looked like you or who was going through the same thing as you just to give the nod to go, you all right? You all right? And like our first sort of meeting, there was only 30 people. And it was just, I think, essentially the eight founders of Women in Football.

It's kind of who they knew. And it was literally, who do we know? Right, quick, get them to this event. So we had a sort of event at Tottenham, all sort of underground. And then now we're a network of 8,000 women. And essentially- did you think that would ever happen never i mean imagine 8 000 women working in football you know it's it's it's

amazing but at the same time you know i can sit here and say there's 8 000 women who work in football but we're still severely underrepresented um at board level exec level um we've we've got a scheme actually in women in football where it's an apprentice board scheme because, you know, talking about going through A-levels and what I wanted to do when I grew up. Why would you, would you ever grow up and think, I want to be on a board? How do you know? Like, and you know, boards are where decisions are made. So we can't change the industry unless we're part of the decision-making process. But how do you know how to be on a board? So we have an apprentice scheme where you join our board for a year and effectively you come to board meetings

and you learn how much work it takes outside of board meetings. It's just schemes like that that I think are so important. You're reminding me, we had the architect Yasmeen Lowry, who has this incredible career, on the other day. And she said also, of course, working in a male-dominated field, that the network wasn't there. Exactly that. Because 20 years ago when I entered the industry, that the network wasn't there. Exactly that. Because, you know, 20 years ago when I entered the industry,

the network was the golf course and the pub. And often as a woman, you know, I didn't grow up playing golf, so I wouldn't be confident enough to necessarily go to a golf day. So then you miss out on that whole networking thing. And then the other thing is, you know, lots of women are mothers. So we just don't have the hours to put into all that networking um so there's all there's sort of all these contributing factors that mean your network is automatically reduced and as women in football you know you have women in football

and i did i hear that you call somebody from women in football every day oh we've got a whatsapp group and i mean you know have they done it this morning oh yeah yeah yeah hey she's on women's hour exactly but that's what I mean it's about supporting each other and championing each other and when women are representing you know like as you said I'm used to being behind the other side of the glass because I was a producer for so long this isn't my natural environment but I've I really believe passionately and I have to speak about what I do because I want young women to think oh I could do that. And you've helped it happen as well as we talk about you as an amplifier from our power list. You became an agent switching from media and former England and Chelsea footballer Ania Luko was the first female player you represented and then under your management she became the first ever female pundit on of course match of the day that was in 2014 I went

having a look at some of those articles this morning and it's like woman I know what do you think looking back on that time I just think it's crazy because every time you watch a football game now you will see some sort of female representation more often than not in front of the camera. But also there's a lot more representation with directors, camera women, producers, co-ords, etc. But I mean, at the time, there was such a fuss about it and it had actually taken me two or three years to make that happen. So I started working with Eni just before the Home Olympics because we thought, oh, we've got Home Olympics. There's going to be, you know, the women's football team will be visible. You know, this is where women's football is going to take over.

There's some massive opportunities for them. The game was starting to turn professional. So Eni and I were like, this is a really exciting time for women's football. And I approached the BBC and other broadcasters and basically said, we should have a female pundit, you know, any, for example, so articulate. I think she had 88 caps for England at the time. She was playing for Chelsea. Why not? And essentially was told, well, she's never played in the Premier League, so why could she comment on the Premier League? And it took about two and a half years of meetings.

And then, you know, hats off Mark Cole, who is now at Whisper, who make lots of the women's football programmes. He was the editor of Match of the Day at the time. And I just remember him calling and saying, right, we're on. And I think it was, I think we had about 10 days notice. And I was like, hey, we're going to Salford.

I still, you know, it was nerve wracking because there was so much pressure on Eni because ultimately, if it didn't work, then it was on the rest of us for another two years to fight the battle for another two years to get another opportunity. When I looked at newspaper articles, they had printed every comment that she had made on the match of like whether it stood up to scrutiny. Imagine your first show ever. Yes. Or, you know, like my first show that I'm producing and someone is literally scrutinising you. And that's where they're at. And, you know, and he did brilliantly and paved the way for the rest of us. Let's talk about some of the things that are happening today then.

Last month, for example, The Telegraph reported that the big six Premier League football clubs spent more on agents fees in men's football last season alone than they've collectively spent on their women's football programme since the Women's Super League began in 2011? I mean, it's insanity, isn't it? I'm in the wrong side, aren't I, on that? But yeah, I think, I mean, the money just wasn't in the women's game to pay agents fees. They're starting to trickle in. But at the same time, you have to think percentage wise. So the men's average average the average wage in the premier league for example i think is 2.8 million the average wage in the women's super league is 30 grand so where are you getting an agent's fee if so if you know if one of my clients is earning

30 grand a year it's pretty outrageous to take a huge agent's fee on that isn't it because that's that's the living wage um so yeah it it's a really interesting time. And don't get me wrong, you know, we're in the middle of a transfer window at the moment. It's really busy and things are changing, but it's not changing that quickly. You know, the average is not going to jump up much from 30 grand a year, trust me. Jo Tong there from this year's Woman's Hour Power List. Now, the changing reality of our environment is something we are faced with on a daily basis with new reports, new articles, new first-hand accounts of how climate change is impacting communities around the world. Just recently, we saw wild surge in the number of people

with what is being called eco-anxiety by psychiatrists, a chronic fear of environmental doom. Although not yet considered as a diagnosable condition, there's no doubt amongst experts of this negative impact. So what does it mean and how can we stop it impacting people? Krupa spoke to Jen Newell, a climate scientist turned campaigner from the Climate Majority Project, and Judy Ling-Wan, president of the Black Environment Network, about their experiences. First, Jen told Krupa about why she thinks mental difficulties around climate change should be called eco-grief instead of eco-anxiety?

I do think that the framing and the narrative and language that we use is really important. But in particular, because anxiety is understood as being a response of fear, and fear, like my therapist described it, as false eventualities appearing real. However, there is absolutely nothing that's not real about the reality of the climate crisis. We know what's coming our way. We know just how difficult that journey is going to be. And grief is a valid response to a real situation. So I do think it's really important

that we really call this what it is. And grief, I think, as well, is much more of an understood condition. And we even have, you know, that we understand the seven stages of grief. So by framing it in the context of it being grief that is driven by the heartbreak of the reality of climate breakdown as eco grief, we actually have much more tools to kind of help support us and manage it as well. Let me bring in Judy Ling Wong, president of the Black Environment Network,

who has more than three decades of experience that we can tap into now. Judy, first of all, what do you think of that idea that we should be calling it eco-grieve, proposed there by Jen? Well, it's very real. We all grieve about the death and the damage and the expected endangered species

completely going out of existence. But I think what is interesting is what to do about it. You know, when the Institute of Psychiatry published a special issue on climate anxiety, one of the papers pointed out is that if you can do something about it, if you feel part of the movement to change things or to stabilize things, then you feel much better.

And also, you know, at the moment, the government is trying to reach net zero by 2050 and all that, and they're committed to creating 2 million new green jobs. Now, if young people and activists think about this, if you have a green job, you're actually dedicating your entire working life to building a green, sustainable future. And that has a huge effect on your psychology of what you're doing with your days, what you're doing for the whole of society, not just yourself, and all the things you love about nature and people. You founded the Black Environment Network back in 1987. How much has really changed in your opinion? A lot. The entire attitude.

You know, in 1987, the nature conservation movement, which dominated all nature concerns, was only about nature. So if you were not interested in volunteering for nature, they were not interested in you, black or white. So when we brought the idea of the integration of minorities into the movement forward, we brought the idea of the integration of minorities into the movement forward, we brought forward something very, very important that's changed the paradigm of the conservation movement. Instead of just people for nature, it's a two-way street, people for nature

and nature for people. Why was it important for you to bring in minority groups specifically? Because they are a huge force. We might be 14%, but in our cities, look at London, 39%. Can you call that a minority? So we should have a huge role to play. If we're excluded, we become a vast missing contribution. I know you've been forging ahead with that positive force for a number of years. And it's something that you, Jenna, are also trying to do in your work, in your writing. You wrote an article with BBC Scotland

where you were interviewed about your own experiences. That article is still over on our website as well if people do want to have a read. But you received a tremendous response, didn't you? Yeah, an overwhelming response. One which was both heartwarming and heartbreaking in equal measures, like just the sheer number of people who really resonated and felt heard, felt their feelings validated, essentially, by me sharing my story, which ultimately, at the time when I was really struggling with eco grief,

I didn't understand that it was exactly that. It was a lot of feelings, hurt, heartbreak that was like paralyzing. And really ultimately like I felt myself in a position where this was not a world that I wanted to be a part of and that's a really scary place to be especially when you don't understand those feelings but yeah that response both in the numbers but also the complete range of different people who reached out and kind of thanked us for sharing the story and the thing that I would really highlight is that, you know, we talk so much about it affecting, you know, the climate emergency

and just the general state of today's society, right? Like having such a negative impact on the mental health of the youth. But what really struck me was how many diverse people from different backgrounds, different ages, like the number of like, without being too stereotypical, like middle class white males, like middle aged males, who reached out, having felt some resonance to what I was sharing. Yeah, it really did surprise me and definitely highlights a need for more of these conversations

and support across the board that this isn't actually just something that is, you know, the youth. Like, I had grandparents reaching out too. Well, I want to pick up on that with you, Judy. You yourself, have you... I mean, you come across as this incredibly positive force, Judy, I have to say. It's the first time I'm meeting you. But have you ever felt that dread, that eco-anxiety that we are talking about?

Well, I'm driven by anxiety and I'm driven by grief. And as an ethnic minority, you know, all ethnic minorities carry a huge burden, a much greater burden, because we actually relate to friends and families and colleagues in our countries of heritage. So what is happening into the world is actually impacting on our person. But I'm enormously positive because there are actually clear things to do, like getting rid of fossil fuels and going to renewable energies, not only changing everything, but for example, merging with the cost of living issue by giving us ultimately the cheapest

historical energy we have ever seen when we finally get there. So there are huge positive things to look forward to, but we must fight for these things. You're, like I said, this driven force, but lots of calls for action on your part. Is there reason to be hopeful, Judy? Yes, because I think that whatever we are saying, I must say that with all news programmes, the bad news comes first. But there's lots of good news and people on the move who are going to change this.

And I'm sure we can do this. Same to you, Jen. Yeah, I do hold an awful lot of hope and can see a very positive future ahead of us. And a big part of that is holding these conversations and beginning to speak with each other, realise that we are the majority and that there is so much we can do together. Jen Newell there and Judy Ling Wan as well, speaking to Krupa.

And finally today to an 80s singing legend who has turned her hand to writing. Susanna Hoffs is a founding member of the Bangles and a solo artist in her own right. In the 1980s, of course, the Bangles became a seminal band with a string of hits blending 60s garage rock with beautiful harmonies and jangly guitars. Now, she's written her first novel, This Bird Has Flown, which has been described as part British rom-com, part Jane Eyre, and it gives a glimpse inside the music business.

She joined Eula in the studio and told her how she first started her music career. I'd always been enchanted by music. It was like a spell being cast on me whenever songs would come out of the radio growing up in Los Angeles. And from then on, yeah, I just wanted to pursue some kind of life in the arts. My mom was a painter and sculptor and my dad a psychoanalyst. So something about growing up in that household had an effect. And when I was at university up in Berkeley, California, I did have an opportunity to see a lot of music in San

Francisco, like the Patti Smith Group and the Sex Pistols. And I thought, I'm going, I want to do this. And I don't want to wait for permission. I'm just going to. So I advertised myself when I got back to LA and I put flyers around that I would hand drawn flyers that I'd made. And then I did advertise myself in a kind of throwaway paper where you could buy a couch, a used couch or a used car, or find potentially a bandmate. And that's how I got to meet the Peterson sisters, guitarist and drummer from the Bangles. And it just kind of went from there. And wow, what a wild ride. And I kept thinking of you and the 80s as I was reading your first novel, which is This Bird Has Flown. Of course, also hearkening want to use AI to recreate some things. But with this novel,

it's a little bit of romance, a little bit of rock and roll. It has music, fate, redemption, love. And it's got this protagonist that Jane Starr, who sings and plays guitar. Yeah.

She starts in Las Vegas. She has been a one hit wonder, unlike you. Yeah. But tell us a little bit about her and why you decided to write about her. You've talked about your career in music, but now you're here.

Well, yeah, I thought when I, it had been a lifelong dream to write a novel. And it just took a moment where I'd co-written a screenplay only to find out that it was stuck on a shelf in development hell. And my older son Jackson suggested, you know, he said, Mom, you've always wanted to write a novel, why don't you? And I took a beat. And I said, Yeah, why don't I? So that was all I needed. And then he gave me another prompt to open my computer, look at a

blank screen and just start. And so the following day, I did that. And I forced my and so I wrote a couple pages and I forced myself to gather even my parents to come to the house to be witnesses to this launching in on this novel. But it just went from there. I just had the it was so transporting to be in the world of fictional characters that I love, whose voices would just, they would just start talking to me, and I just had to bottle what they were saying. And of course, I had to craft the story of this one hit wonder who kind of goes on a journey to kind of find redemption in all ways in her life, including love, because she has been sort of dumped and thrown over for another woman. And there you have it. So it gave

me a lot of predicaments to deal with. Susanna Hoffs would never have been thrown over like Jane Starrett, though. You know, there are grown men that swoon when I mention your name. Well, I did have a series of ill-fated romances in the 80s to pull from. But then I met my husband on a blind date in 1991. And we're still together 30 years later. You are also, as I mentioned, you've got also an album of covers coming out. It's called The Deep End. But I've heard that described as a feminist version of the Rolling Stones under my thumb. Yes, that was the intent.

I love the Beatles and also the Rolling Stones. And one day I'm on my walk where all my creativity seems to be sparked when I'm on a walk listening to music and I listen to those lyrics and I went, wait a minute, this is time for a reinvention. What if we flip the gender? It's great. But the thing I was when I was listening to some of your covers and also reading the book, I was like, how does this woman get the time to be so creative and put it all out there at the same time? Well, I just carved time for it. I just made time for it. And, you know, there was an opportunity to be touring with the Bangles, but I'd done so much of that,

decades of it. And I just thought, I have this one chance. My son gave me the prompt to write that novel I'd always wanted to write, and I just made the space for it. Let me turn back to Jane. She doesn't want to be a world touring stadium playing artist. She would be happier as a close to home folk singer. Is that something you identify with? I see you on TikTok as well. You often have your guitar. Yeah. And obviously you've released this album of covers. Where are you most happy? just share my love of music with other people who love music and do it in a more simple way, just, you know, with a guitar and singing. And yeah, I don't know. It's feeling comfortable and authentic to do it that way now. What did it feel like as well, thinking back into that world of music?

It was quite compressed, the 80s for me. It was so compressed, the 80s, for me. It was so fast-moving. And when you're in a band, it's like it's its own family. I had the two sisters in the band, myself and the bass player. And it was just, it was a bit of a pressure cooker. And there was a lot of, yeah, I don't know, it was wonderful. But reflecting back on it, it's not necessarily, I like writing novels. Let's just pivot to that. I really love being

home writing novels. So my next question is, will there be a follow up? Oh, yes, I've already just broken the ice on the next one. Have you? Yeah. Was the family invited around to see the beginning of it again? I have not read that first page to anyone. I've written about, just broken the ice, the first few pages, because I've been nervous to do it. Is Jane back again? Yeah. Jane is back.

Yeah. Okay. So we're going to follow Jane's start and see where she goes next. I have to say, I've really enjoyed it, and it's got wonderful reviews so far as well. Best of luck with it. Thank you. Susanna Hoffs, of course, off the bangles, but also author, her debut novel, which I feel is probably going to be turned into film. Oh, that's right. Yeah, I've already written the screenplay. Yeah. Universal's picked it up. Yeah, I could see it.

I could totally see it as I was reading it. Oh, good. Susanna Hoffs, thanks so much for coming into Woman's Hour. Thank you. Susanna Hoffs there, the Bangles singer and now author. Her book, The Bird Has Flown, is out now. That's all from me this afternoon. But don't forget, Nuala will be back with Woman's Hour at 10 o'clock on Monday.

She'll be speaking to the actress who plays Helen in The Archers about the latest twists and turns in the storyline of hers and Rob's relationship. You will not want to miss that. So that's Monday from 10. Until then, have a great weekend. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.