Woman's Hour - Catholic Church Abuse. Recycling Shaming, Maureen Lipman

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

A woman who won a settlement from the Catholic Church after reporting the abuse she suffered, is now launching a personal injury claim against Westminster Diocese. It's because of a series of emails which she says describe her as needy, manipulative and a bully. She explains to Woman's Hour what she wants to achieve. A legal challenge began in the High Court this week about municipal waste incinerators. It's being brought by Georgia Elliott-Smith, an environmental engineer and campaigner, who says the level of incinerator emissions is "staggering". She hopes the legal challenge will result in a judicial review. It's The Duke of Edinburgh's funeral on Saturday. He was married to the Queen for nearly 74 years, and she's acknowledged that he will leave a ‘huge void’. But how do you come to terms with such a loss after so long? Actor, writer and comedian Dame Maureen Lipman recently lost Guido Castro, her long-term partner, having already been widowed in 2004 when her husband Jack Rosenthal died after 30 years of marriage.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. As the details of Prince Philip's funeral are finalised ahead of Saturday, all eyes will be on Her Majesty the Queen and thoughts with her, not necessarily as a monarch, but as a woman burying her husband, a widow. Someone grieving whom we're used to seeing with her husband by her side for nearly 74 years and will now cut a lonelier figure. And yet she will be in the bosom of her family.

Indeed many people in the last 24 hours have been struck by her granddaughter's tribute to her grandfather in which Princess Eugenie promised to look after the Queen now that he's no longer here. Today, Dame Maureen Lipman is on the programme to discuss her experiences of widowhood and carrying on, how to do so and who helped. But how about you? You may have lost someone, you may have a story to share, some wisdom to impart. It has been a difficult year for a lot of people. How have you supported someone on the other side of this? Perhaps a family member, a friend? What worked? What didn't? And if you were receiving that support, what could you have done a bit more with? What

advice would you give to those who perhaps are trying to help others at the moment? You can text us here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or email us through our website. Because I'd love to actually talk to some of you today, if I can, on air. If you can, leave your number if you email us, and then we can get back in touch with you while we're on air and have you as part of our conversation today.

Also coming up on today's programme, a woman branded needy, manipulative and a bully for daring to take on the Catholic Church who refuses to be cowed and wonders if institutional sexism could have played a part. Stay with us for that story and more details. But first, a legal challenge began yesterday in the High Court into the government's decision to exclude municipal waste incinerators from the UK's new post-Brexit emissions trading scheme. The challenge is being brought by one woman, the environmental engineer and campaigner Georgia Elliott-Smith, who says the level of incinerator emissions being ignored is staggering.

She hopes the challenge today will result in a judicial review on the issue. And Georgia joins us now. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? Well, just to bring us up to speed, the emissions trading scheme for people who do not know what that is. Can you explain it in layman's terms and also why it matters? OK, so the UK emissions trading scheme is the only industrial carbon reduction and carbon pricing mechanism in the UK. So it's the tool that the government is using to reduce industrial CO2 emissions. It was brought in as a result of Brexit. So previously, this was something that was managed in the EU.

And the UK government has now created their own scheme. The problem is that this UK scheme has set the level of allowed carbon emissions way above business as usual emissions. So that's the first ground that I'm arguing. It will not result in overall emissions reductions. And then the second point is that it leaves out some major carbon emitters like waste incineration. So what are you hoping you'll change here? That level to come back down? Yeah, so what we need from government is a mechanism to actually drive down carbon emissions in the short to medium term. So the UK government has signed up to the Paris Agreement.

That requires us to make carbon reductions in the short to medium term. This piece of regulation is so weak and flawed that it's just kicking the can down the road and allowing business to continue as usual. And my hope is that particularly on waste incineration, that that will draw the incinerator industry into a mechanism where they have to accurately account for their carbon emissions, which they currently don't have to do. There's some very creative carbon accounting going on. And also to make sure that they're pulled into a taxation and a reduction mechanism over time. Are incinerator emissions the biggest culprit? I feel even though we're not doing as much air travel as we once were,

people will be hoping to go back to that life and wanting to go on their holidays. Surely air travel is worse? Well, air travel, funnily enough, yes, does have massive emissions associated to it, but it's subject to quite a lot of environmental regulation where it has to manage and account for its CO2 emissions. It is part of this emissions trading scheme. It's also part of a scheme called Corsair, which is an international scheme to drive down emissions. It is part of this emissions trading scheme. It's also part of a scheme called Corsair, which is an international scheme to drive down emissions. So there's a lot of focus on aviation and driving down their emissions over time. But waste incineration has just fallen through the cracks. And it's a massively polluting industry. If I just put it into context, there are 48 waste incinerators in the UK at the moment. Last year, they emitted the same amount of CO2 as the whole of Manchester and Birmingham put together just from burning plastic.

If you scale that up to the European level, the 500 waste incinerators in Europe emitted more CO2 than the whole of Portugal. Again, just from burning plastic. Well, you are taking on the government. We asked the business, energy and industrial strategy departments about this case. They were unable to comment on the specific of the legal challenges, but they offered this statement. Our UK emissions trading scheme creates the incentive for emissions to be reduced in a cost effective and technology neutral way while encouraging businesses to invest in emissions reduction technologies and measures. They then go on to say, everyone has an important role to play in reducing waste and tackling climate change, including businesses. But that sentence around everyone has an important role to play, I can already see you smiling. Why are you smiling? The reason I'm smiling is because it's very handy for the government, for incinerator operators, for major corporates

to blame the individual for environmental harm. For example, you know, we should be living zero waste lifestyles, we should be buying less plastic, we should be recycling better, and so on. What you don't see from that is a massive, systematic failure to address the cause of this problem, which is that government's lack of regulation and control of the materials that are coming onto the market means that corporates are making billions of pounds of profit out of pumping these materials into the waste stream

and incinerators are then burning it. So everybody is making profit out of this system. What we need is a strong government policy that makes producers of these plastics responsible for the end of life treatment of this system. What we need is a strong government policy that makes producers of these plastics responsible for the end of life, treatment of this, and not for society having to pay for it. So it's the shift.

Well, I was going to say, it's the shift from you thinking, what can I do to the producers to be taking responsibility. Exactly. I mean, for the government to say that, and also you'll see lots of major plastic polluters, you know, lots of major corporates, the brands that we're all used to purchasing.

They like to blame the consumer. They like to sort of fiddle around the edges with tiny recycled content and campaigns to increase recycling while they pump out billions of tonnes of plastic into the market. So I think it's a distraction to blame the individual because we don't have time for 7 billion people to wake up tomorrow and to start living zero waste lifestyles. Well, I was just going to say, because, of course, we're speaking on Women's Hour, a great deal is made of women and their particular waste, as we put it. A lot of push has been around, for instance, menstrual products, trying to get people to to use different ones, you know, get to grips with a moon cup if they've never done so in the past or whatever it is.

I mean, are you and then, of course, then there comes around with children. And of course, that's not just women's responsibility, but nappies and wet wipes and all of those sorts of things. Do you get frustrated by the blame perhaps sometimes going towards women in this area? And to all those who are maybe struggling to get to grips with more eco-friendly ways of having a period for instance are they just wasting their time moon cups can be quite fiddly yes yes yes they certainly can you get used to them but they're so I'm told you know but I'm you know I think they're very I think they're very good for people who can use them but But my point is people are trying very hard.

And I just wonder what you make of that and that specific women's angle. I definitely think there's a place for this. You know, I think that it's great that people are pursuing this. But I think that they oughtn't to think that using, you know, reducing their personal plastic consumption is the answer. The answer is to go to the brands that you buy from, the supermarkets, the individual brands, your MPs, the government, ask them, what are they doing about this? Why are they not reducing plastic? Confront them about it, you know, use your voice. And I think it can be quite personally rewarding to use these plastic free products. But I mean, you know, the reality

is, if the consumer economy had a gender, it would be female. You know, we are subject to massive amounts of pressure from advertising and marketing to buy more and more stuff, most of which is plastic and single use plastic, fast fashion, you know, household consumables. And we know that women are responsible for about 80% of spending on household consumables the vast majority of which is single-use plastic so women are at the sharp end of this and I do see a move towards blaming the consumer which as I say is predominantly female for their own personal behavior when I think that is a massive distraction from the root of the problem here, which is a failure, a systematic failure of government to address the cause of the problem

and to prevent these materials being flooding into the marketplace, then for society to pick up the tab, both financially and in terms of health, because incinerators are pouring out emissions into the local environment that's affecting health, and also climate change, as I've already mentioned. I suppose we're talking as well, I'm very aware of the moves of Joe Biden and what's going on with trying to negotiate with China. You know, America and China, the two greatest polluters, trying to talk about this and come to some sort of arrangement, some sort of deal while also trying to deal with China in many other ways, not least its human rights abuses.

Are you hopeful at the moment? You've got this legal challenge going on. You've talked here about the need to shift responsibility from the individual to the corporates. Are you in a hopeful space right now or are you in a fight mode? I am in fight mode. You know, obviously, I a fight mode? I am in fight mode you know obviously I'm I'm in court I was in court yesterday I'm in court after this call today again so we're waiting for the judgment to come back on that but I do I am optimistic you know I see a lot of particularly women incredible women coming to the forefront in the fight for social justice, for environmental justice. And I think, you know, in the UK, you know, one of the silver linings of

Brexit, if you can call it that, is the fact that the UK has had to rewrite a lot of environmental legislation, which then enables this kind of environmental legal activism, like I'm participating in here, to challenge the government to make sure that these environmental rules that they're bringing in are actually proactive and effective to fight the climate emergency. I'm seeing just brilliant women, inspiring women, all around me fighting this. So that makes me incredibly hopeful. Well, we will talk perhaps when we know the verdict and also some more details around those fighting this. So that makes me incredibly hopeful. Well, we will talk perhaps when we know the verdict and also some more details around those other issues.

Georgia Elliott-Smith, off to court you go. Thank you for talking to us this morning. And perhaps you have a view on that, a message in fact straight in saying there should be a plastic tax applied to all plastic products with the tax being hypothecated to pay for environmentally friendly waste disposal. Any more of your messages on that, we would welcome on 84844.

But as I began this morning's programme, asking for your stories around loss, hope, moving forward, it is, of course, ahead of the funeral of the Duke of Edinburgh. The Queen and Prince Philip were married for nearly 74 years. Her family have said his loss will leave a huge void in her life as the focus shifts to her as a widow, as a wife mourning her husband. But how do you come to terms with such a loss after so long? The actor, writer, comedian Dame Maureen Lipman recently lost Guido Castro, her partner of more than 13 years, having already been widowed in 2004 when her husband Jack

Rosenthal died after 30 years of marriage. She's on the line now. Good morning. Good morning, Maureen. We're going to just make sure you're there. I think we've got that. I'm going to say that phrase that everybody says at this time. Could you unmute yourself?

I have unmuted myself. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for coming on to talk about this. Because, of course, you know, you've actually got a very recent loss to talk about. Yes, about 10 weeks now since Guido passed. I'm not the world's foremost authority. And, you know, it makes me think, oh, don't link up with maureen lipman because you'll

die no no but you but you are preposterous but you can't you know you can't just look at someone and say oh well he was 99 he had a good life or he was 84 or 90 well you can't do that because i think the the thing that somehow protects all of, you and me and everyone from life, is that we don't think about the possibility of our dying. So really, every day is full, for most people, of some kind of hope, optimism. And even in the darkest hour, you really don't think anyone's going to go. Sorry, go on. No, I was just going to say, just to explain to our listeners, Guido, he did catch COVID, but that's not necessarily the reason that he went.

A lot of these COVID deaths, it's COVID related. No, let me get through my remorse because he was in a care home I was working and his family decided that was best. And so one can only see him one day a week for a short time. And it was masked. I mean, everything, every death in Covid is completely different from ever in my life before. I mean, God knows it was bad enough watching Jack's journey through myeloma or even sort of hearing on a telephone call that your mother's died because that's a terrible shock. Great for her, but a terrible shock for those who don't have a chance, you know, even to say goodbye, let alone touch. But with Covid, we didn't have the beauty of Jack's death in a way in a hospice where everybody was so wonderful to us and let us be there night and day. It was this business of sitting there masked, which I know so many people have gone through, with gloves on the floor because the bed was low, the daughters and myself.

And still not really, still thinking he was going to pull through because he had had a jab in the care home. And then two days later, he got COVID. But he came through that. He was really strong. But it just this this this virus wrecks a lot of your strength, inner strength. And so, yes, as we say in show business, I was with him till the half. One of the one of the things I think it's hard, I was trying to say at the beginning, I think it's hard for people to realise that being a widow or a partner, whatever one would like to call it, is, you know, I think Catherine Whitehorn said it, you are a refugee in a strange country.

You don't know the rules or you don't know the language. And it takes a long time. Grief is incremental. And I think, you know, the Queen's already gone back to get to the end of the day in a studio in Manchester and ring up saying, how is he today? And I'm sure that Her Majesty has been going through that now. Preparation is great, but it doesn't help. It's still a terrible shock when there's that hole in your life uh you don't have um that care anymore and also you know there's always remorse

because you could always have done better don't you know and i i live with that. You could always... Oh, Maureen, I'm sorry. Take a moment. Have a sip of tea. Is that a Buckingham Palace mug? God, it's coincidentally... Clever girl, aren't you? It is a Buckingham Palace mug and I didn't plan that at all. Well, look, if I could make you smile just for a moment in the middle of in the middle of this and I'm sorry because you know it is very fresh your recent loss and and you are talking as as someone who has been through it before but you're going through it again and and it's different and that's what I wanted to ask about is I don't know quite how to put this but I'll go for it do for it. Do you get any better at it?

I'm not going to get an award for it, Emma, that's for sure. I actually, I went to the grounds where both Jack and Guido were buried and I couldn't find Guido's grave. And I literally said to a friend, I don't understand it. I've lost the plot. I didn't. I wasn't trying to be funny but that helps you know all these things help just if you have someone who's been bereaved by Covid or by natural causes just don't think that they're better after a few weeks and that you can then sort of roll your eyes when they talk about the person they spent 35 years

with or whatever talk about that person say do you remember when um uh give them a chance to be brave give them a chance to weep on woman's hour yes well you know we are actually i should restate this if people want to come on and our listeners want to talk to us and they are getting in touch so many of them right now 84844 or email us with your experience of loss, how you've carried on, what helped, what didn't help. And we'll come to you and you can leave your number and we'll try and get you on before the end of the programme. Maureen Lippman, do you feel that there is a way that you could say that you do carry on because you are busy, you are doing, you know, I mean, COVID's changed all of our lives and I'm sure has put also some disruptions in your working life. But is work the answer in many ways? Or what has it been for you for putting

one foot in front of the other? Well, I suppose when Jack died, I had his work to promote. We wrote, I finished his book. And, you know, there's always a lot of practical stuff to do. And that kind of keeps your head above water. You know, and there's a reason for the Jewish method of shiver, sitting there every night for a week and talking about that person. It's a very sensible religion. And, you know, that's not really been possible.

The funeral was a bit a bit odd although i must say rabbi did brilliantly and we did have a zoom shiver and that has some sort of advantages you know you really do see into people's souls sometimes don't you on a zoom and i know that i'm a lucky person actually um martin sherman the writer said to me you are a lucky person, actually. Martin Sherman, the writer, said to me, you are a lucky woman to have lost two such wonderful men. But don't assume that all your mates have empathy. Empathy is a gift and you can get better at it, but I don't think you can have it if you haven't got it. So there are many bereavements in the world.

There are, you know, people losing children, I think, is a totally different thing in a way, because you're never, ever going to be the same again. But you have to go on. You can't be a gloom in society. but when you've got a friend who's bereaved, you know, just six months later when all the work has been done, all the practical stuff has been done, and I'm really glad the Queen's going to be at Windsor because I bet it's cosy. I walked to Buckingham Palace the other day and I thought, that's not cosy.

I mean, I've been in there and, of course, it's pretty nice. Yes, I was going to say. that's not cozy I mean I've been in there and of course it's pretty nice yes you know surrounded by your kids surrounded by your good friends who you trust and who you know don't say the wrong thing or even if they do admit they've said the wrong thing and with you find you know I mean I couldn't read after after Jack I couldn't do what is my biggest thing in life you know to get through a book quickly because you couldn't what because you couldn't concentrate well because fiction isn't apt fiction is not anything like what you're going through at the time this is real life so poetry I mean there's some wonderful books out there written by people who've been through it and I'm not saying that the novel can't capture what happens to you it's just that's me you've got to find your own thing and maybe for me it's going back to Corrie and having everybody

give me a three meter distance hug and say they miss miss me. For the Queen, it may well be going and cutting a ribbon and opening a naval place. That may be what gets her through. I've been very struck while we're talking. We've got so many messages coming in, but there's one here that you started to answer this, but it says, hello, I tried and entirely failed to support my eldest sister when she was widowed during lockdown. And I think, you know, that sort of honesty is great self-awareness. And it sounds like, you know, she wished she could have done a better job. Yes, that's an interesting one, isn't it? Because that sister wants to because a walk after six months, a suggestion that, you know, the restaurants are open, love.

Can I take you out for a curry? Maybe what will work? Maybe it's a trip to a shopping or something, a museum or an art gallery. Maybe that's what the best thing is. You have to be empathetic to what she needs. She's the one who suffered the loss. And as I said, don't expect your friends and relatives to have natural empathy. It comes from the oddest places. You know, something like, you know, look, I've got Guido on my screen face at the moment and it's like a kick in the stomach every time.

And somebody said, you know, we'll take it off, but I need that kick in the stomach at the moment. Well, you want to remember and you want to feel, don't you? But you also want to keep going. I just wondered if with your experience and perhaps your friends' experiences around you, do you see any differences around how women grieve to how men grieve? And we talk about widows and I'm just thinking of how we'll be looking

at Her Majesty perhaps on Saturday and thinking about her. I think that probably her granddaughters and Princess Anne and maybe Sophie, that's Wessex, will be pretty hands on. But you don't you don't. Yes, maybe you don't expect the same from your sons as you do from your daughters. I've got my son's pretty much a sensitive soul like his dad. And the kids, that's another thing. Don't exclude the children from this because my merry little nine-year-old Ava said, I get very sad about Guido. And I saw no basis for that. We didn't see that in her behavior. And I remember the other thing when Jack died was that people would ring up and say to Amy, how's your mum?

And Amy was Jack's best friend, but it didn't occur to them to say, how are you doing, darling? So that's another thing. It isn't just the partner. It's the hole they've left in everybody's life. And, you know, as I say, with Jack, he was a public figure and we went out doing his book, dramatising it. So it kept, incrementally, we let the grief drip away.

Not that many people knew Guido. And a lot of people said to me, you know, oh, he was so lucky to have found you, because he was a bit older than me, obviously. And I kept saying, no, no, no, he was so lucky to have found you because he's a bit older than me obviously and I kept saying no no no I was so lucky to have found him because um he just you know he to find two great men in your life as I said Martin's right it was it was lucky yeah. Dame Maureen Lipman thank you so much for talking to us. Emma, it's a pleasure. Giving us some of your insights, which have definitely prompted others to do the same, which is what this is all about. Dame Maureen Lipman there and your messages coming in. I promise I will return to them very shortly. Lots to go through and hopefully I this story about a woman taking on the Catholic Church. She won a settlement from the church after reporting the abuse that she suffered as a teenager and young woman

and says emails that she managed to access exchanged between Catholic officials have described her as needy, manipulative and a bully. That woman, who is now in her 50s, is now launching a personal injury claim against the Westminster diocese because she says the emails have re-traumatised her. Two years ago, she gave evidence at the Independent Inquiry into the Childhood Sexual Abuse under the codename A711. She's also remaining anonymous for this interview, but when I spoke to her, she started off explaining why she decided to tell her story to Woman's Hour, her first broadcast interview. It's never an easy decision because obviously talking about what has happened in the past and the implications of that throughout my life really and now particularly in the current circumstances that I find myself in. It's a decision that I've taken because I'm hoping that by speaking out, it will make things better for others in the future. And also that what's happened to me will be taken seriously

by the church and by others in safeguarding. Very mindful of how it must re-traumatise as well when you do have to talk about this but in order for our listeners I suppose to understand what you're talking about could you give us an insight into the abuse that started when you were 15? Yeah so when I was 15 I was very involved in my local church and there was a very charismatic priest who was there and involved with the youth group. And from the age of 15, he began that process of grooming me and then sexually abusing me. And that was an abuse that continued for several years into my early 20s.

The abuse progressively worsened. Did you talk to anyone about it? Not at the time, I didn't. No, it was something that I felt because, I suppose, of the way in which I had been groomed, it was something that wasn't to be talked about, that I was to remain silent about. And I think in some ways, and I think this is quite typical in faith settings, that grooming was almost a grooming of the community and of the family. So he was a good friend in some ways of the family as well, which made it very difficult. How did it end? How did it stop happening? I think it came to an end by I had, you know, physically moved away from the area. And I was quite determined that I would use that to my advantage. And so I wrote to him and in that letter I you know described what he had had done

and said that I didn't want any further contact with him and that did then end it. What led to you then and when was it that you decided to try and fight for some kind of justice? It was, I think, events kind of precipitated after my mum died. And in my grieving for her, lots of issues resurfaced. And this was one of the issues that resurfaced. And I felt then, and that was only in the last few years, I felt then that I had the strength and the will to report it and that's when I did come forward and report it. And what happened? So I reported it to the Catholic Church and there was also a police investigation and the police investigation didn't lead to a court case

so the church was then charged with continuing to investigate and it was in those years when the church was investigating it that I realised that things were going terribly wrong. You know, my idea that I would come forward and report it and there would be closure and the church would take me seriously, I suppose in some ways it couldn't have been further from the truth of what actually happened. And over the last four years, I think it's been completely re-traumatising. The date when you did come forward or began this year, rather, is 2016.

It took some time. In 2018, you got a financial settlement and you met the leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales, Cardinal Vincent Nicholls, in 2019. Yes. But now you're in this situation again where you're, what are you seeking now? We'll come back to that meeting in just a moment. So what I'm seeking now is some recognition of how damaging the church's interactions with victims and survivors of abuse can be when we come forward to report historic abuse and instead of the church being

supportive being sensitive the certainly my experience and I know the experience of other survivors has been that we meet a church which is defensive its default position is one of going to its lawyers and it's about defending itself and its reputation rather than engaging in a meaningful way with survivors. But a key point here is you were able to access the internal correspondence between the Catholic authorities who described you in less than complimentary terms. Tell us how you got that access and what it said. So after my case had been settled for the historic abuse, I thought, you know, things had come to an end. There was some closure, but I had battled really hard with the church to get to that point. So I put in a subject access request just out of interest to see what correspondence and data there was being held about me by the diocese of Westminster

I was absolutely horrified when I received the data back and there were emails in which I was described as a manipulative woman a need needy victim, someone who wants, I think somebody said, you know, once you engage with her, you won't be able to get rid of her, being vindictive because I had pursued a civil claim. And I really just couldn't believe what I was reading and that these people, so-called Christian institution, could be talking about victims and survivors. And me in particular, in that way, it ran right through every level of the diocese. The Cardinal, Vincent Nicholls, has written an apology. He said, I apologise sincerely for the language that was used in those emails.

I regret deeply the hurt those words have caused you. I make this apology recognising that far greater sensitivity is needed in everything we do, say and write to those who live with the pain and damage of childhood abuse. I should say, sorry, that was in 2019. Yeah. How did that make you feel, reading what had been said about you? I was absolutely devastated. I mean, it wasn't a picture that anybody else who knows me would, you know, recognise.

I didn't recognise myself in that. I had simply been consistent in requesting information and there was nothing that I'd been asking for that wasn't right to be asking for. Is it right you've also seen emails where you've been called a bully? Yes. So after the first lot of emails were disclosed to me, which were awful, I was made aware in 2020 that there was further email material written about me and I had to battle and this in some ways led to me bringing this current case I had to battle for six months from June 2020 to November 2020 for the diocese to release that further material and I can I can see why they delayed and giving it to me, because it was even worse than what I'd already seen, in that I was being accused of bullying, safeguarding staff, because I was not going to go away, basically. Manipulative were the words that they used, yeah.

Do you think there's sexism in this? Yeah, I think there's certainly an attitude towards women that comes across in this, particularly the comments about me being manipulative and a manipulative woman were made by men in the diocese. But it wasn't exclusively. And I think that's worrying is that there is the whole culture in the diocese seemed to have the same attitudes towards victims and survivors. Would you forgive Cardinal Vincent Nicholls? Could you ever?

I think I could forgive if I saw meaningful change, but I think what I can't forgive is that someone can apologise publicly, which he has done after the public inquiry into child sexual abuse for the failings of the church and of his own personal failings. But if that was backed up with meaningful action then it would be easier to begin to forgive. Are you still a Catholic? I am still a Catholic but that is becoming more and more difficult and I think my own historic abuse was because of one individual. But having reported my abuse to the church, finding the institution of the church so critical of me has made that much more difficult to think about

remaining within the church. So your faith has been shaken by this? It has. I mean, I would distinguish between my own personal faith and the institution. But I think I'm angry and sad that that very institution has done this to me and has made it very difficult for me to be able to feel that I can go to church with any sense of integrity. So just to be clear what what would be the ideal outcome of your personal injury claim? So the ideal outcome would be that the church acknowledges that it has done me damage and damage of a serious nature that's caused serious harm to my mental health and that they accept that and take responsibility. And by doing that, they reflect and examine the way that they are interacting with victims and survivors

and that they make some real attempts to change. And pay you. I mean, I know it's a very sensitive issue, but from what you've said, I can only imagine the shadow this has cast over your whole life. Yeah. And I think, you know, I mean, that's what the claim does. It says, we're acknowledging it because we are going to compensate you for the damage that we have done. So that's important in the principle of what compensation says and speaks about. Is there a figure that you've got in mind?

No, no. You can't put a figure on that, can you? You know, it's somebody's life. And I think the claim is about the church recognising that they have done damage. You know, we've had apologies in the past, but they have just been words. And I think those words need to be backed up with something much weightier that signifies and sends out a very clear signal that the church admits that it has done damage. Talking about the Catholic Church, a joint statement from the Archdiocese and the Cardinal. that the church admits that it has done damage. Talking now about the Catholic Church,

a joint statement from the Archdiocese and the Cardinal. The Cardinal apologised to A711, as this woman is known, in person when he met her in April 2019 and subsequently in a letter to her. As A711 is now seeking civil redress, the matter is in the hands of legal representatives, so no further comment is appropriate at this stage. And I should say, if you've been affected by anything you've heard, by sexual abuse, current or historic, information and support is available via the BBC Action Line.

I did say I would try and speak to a couple of you if I could. And I do have two of our listeners on the line after our discussion with Dame Maureen Lipman about loss ahead of Prince Philip's funeral on Saturday, where all eyes will be on Her Majesty as a widow and someone coping in that. A listener, Barbara Ferris, emailed in and Barbara is on the line. And Barbara, I understand you were widowed very suddenly, age 58, after 20 years of a happy marriage. It's now been some time, a little bit of time tell us how you are and how it was well the actual death itself was incredibly traumatic um whether that has any sort of proportion to grief i don't know but i think that the trauma itself and the way in

which he died which was very sudden and although my husband had had a very serious accident two years into our marriage and had ended up unfortunately as a paraplegic using a wheelchair we had still a very happy marriage I mean we became incredibly close we didn't have children by choice although he had a son from a previous marriage and essentially I think because we went through he was in hospital for nine months and he had various surgery over the next 20 years really on and off it was an ongoing ongoing issue but that's obviously another story but But when he died, it was not related specifically to his spinal injury.

And he had had, in many ways, I mean, his lung damage, strangely, is not dissimilar from, sadly, how people are dying from COVID. He was eventually diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis, which was terminal. But we had about two days to process

that piece of information when he was in intensive care and essentially they said there was no treatment for him and I think at the time I felt that he was written off because he was a paraplegic they did keep talking about quality of life and essentially they asked him to agree to withdrawal of treatment and i don't know which is worse i don't know whether if you're lying there in a coma and the relatives have to make that decision uh or whether i whether he he had to make that decision and and it was incredibly cruel I mean it was I think really purely because I'm so sorry we're so short of time I just wanted to ask how you how you've carried on okay well obviously um the trauma lasted quite some time and I and I

sort of busied myself with asking for inquiries and so on and so on. Eventually, obviously, I had to draw a line under it. I did realize that after six months, I was not going to be someone that was going to pursue it. And the grief itself was incredibly intense. I lived on my own. I'll never forget going back into the house the first night. And people were saying, Oh, do you want someone to stay with you? And I realized, realized if I did that I'd never face it I had to face it right from the beginning I you I had to go through the whole pain and agony of the whole thing and and cold turkey I tell you what that is such a theme that we're getting on our messages and I'm going to have to leave it there but I think where you know but where you've

put that and thank you for trusting us to share that where you've put that is resonating with a lot of people that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. I really hope you enjoyed that podcast. I'm here just to tell you about a new one on BBC Sounds

called Life Changing, in which I get the chance to have some really, I hope, insightful conversations with people who've lived through some extraordinary challenges and experiences. Just have a listen. I knew, I said, this is it.

I didn't know where I was going, what I was going to do. And literally, like what is seen in the films, I just took apart my mobile phone and threw out the SIM card and I just drove as fast and as far away as I could. We just quietly stood there just stunned disbelief. You cannot believe what you're looking at.

I just want to get inside your head here. You're sitting there in your house in Wales and you're messaging a woman whose Malaysian royalty, as it turns out, also your half-sister. I mean, have you got a cup of tea there with you? Packet of hobnobs? I mean, this is crazy, isn't it? Oh, absolutely crazy. It's absolutely crazy. Join us if you can. I promise you won't regret it.

Subscribe now to Life Changing on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.