Woman's Hour - Celebrating midwinter in sub-Antarctic. Olivia Harrison on celebrating her husband though poetry.

Episode Date: June 21, 2022

As we celebrate the summer solstice on the other side of the world it's the shortest day or mid-winter. For the first time the British Antarctic Survey have an all-female team wintering on Bird Island in the sub-Antarctic. Midwinter is a moment of celebration for the teams on sites. The Bird Island Research Station Leader, Imogen Lloyd, joins Emma to tell her about the work they're doing.Olivia Harrison has penned a book of poetry called "Came the Lightening" to celebrate her husband, George Harrison's life, more than twenty years after his death.. As lead guitarist of The Beatles, his most famous songs included While My Guitar Gently Weeps, and Here Comes the Sun. What prompted her to share her memories in poetry?A court support service that helps thousands of people who cannot afford a lawyer could be under threat after having its government funding changed. The Chief Executive of Support Through Court Eileen Pereira explains what any loss of core-funding could have on the women they support.A new story suggests that Boris Johnson may have spoken to Downing Street aides about getting his wife, Mrs Carrie Johnson, two roles while she was living in Number 10 with the Prime Minister as his fiancee. Sources told the Daily Mirror that the Prime Minister raised possible new environmental roles for her in autumn 2020, either on the COP 26 summit or with the Royal Family. His closest advisors are said to have vetoed both suggestions - but what questions does this raise about her being the victim of sexism and the idea of her as a private citizen? We hear from Daily Mirror Political Editor Pippa Crerar Plus a new coming-of-age TV series was released on Amazon Prime – The Summer I Turned Pretty, The characters are supposed to be 15 and 16 year olds, but the majority of the cast are in their early 20’s. Why are films and television shows that focus on the teenage experience so often played by older actors? We hear from Alex Hart an English and History Student at Durham University and Tianna Haffenden a young actor.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. How has your morning been? Same as usual? Very different? I would like to hear from you. I'd like to hear how it's going on the day of the biggest rail strike in the country in 30 years, which also coincides with the Tube strike in London. Looking across social media, some of you are already messaging about this generally, but also we'd like to hear from you here at Woman's Hour.

One tweeter called NMMum wrote, it's going to be quicker to drive 60 miles around the M25 than 16 miles across town today. My apologies to the environment. Another called Angeles's posted, my husband's getting the bus instead of the train and he doesn't mind. He's had a 5% wage rise in the private care sector, so supports rail staff in their strike. But how about you? What's it been like this morning? Have you been organising? Have you been sorting? Have you been staying at home? Perhaps it hasn't affected you at all. Perhaps you are on strike right now. Text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media or at BBC Women's Hour, like usual, or you can email us. Many of you always choose that option. We're very grateful through our website. And if possible, do leave your number and we'll see if we can get some of you on to the radio so I can talk to you directly this morning.

Also on today's programme, strikes are spreading, this time to criminal barristers who have also voted to go on strike in a row over legal aid funding. With days of court walkouts expected from next week, we're going to hear from a court support service worried about its funding, with a lot of its work going towards the support of women and children. Young actors playing even younger roles, is that a problem which needs fixing? We'll be talking to two women involved with that and have a view on that shortly.

And June 21st, as we are today, it is summer solstice, the longest day for those living north of the equator. And for the very first time, the British Antarctic Survey have got an all-female team wintering on Bird Island since it was designated a station for Antarctic Survey have got an all-female team wintering on Bird Island since it was designated a station for Antarctic research in 1963. The Bird Island research station leader will be joining me live from the island, which is off the northwest tip of South Georgia in the Southern Atlantic Ocean. So all that to come. We're journeying around the world today and with your

help I'll get your view on all of those issues. But George Harrison needs no introduction as the lead guitarist of the Beatles. His most famous songs include While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Within You Without You, Here Comes the Sun and Something. He embraced meditation. He was sometimes referred to as the quiet Beatle incorporating Indian instruments such as the sitar into the band's music. But what was it like to build that life with him, to go on those journeys, to make those discoveries and be married to a musical icon, raising a family too? Olivia Harrison has penned a book of poetry called Cane the Lightning to celebrate her husband's life more than 20 years since his death from lung cancer at the age of 58. She joins me now for her first broadcast interview. Olivia Harrison, a warm welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Good morning. Hi Emma.

Thank you for being with us today and I thought I'd start by asking why write this, why put this out in the world all these years on? What was the motivation? Well, it just sort of bubbled up, you know, emotions and especially the emotion of grief. You know how it strikes whenever it feels like it. And I don't know, I just had a moment of the 20 years, how could this possibly be? And I wrote something about it and thought, well, if I just keep writing, you know, I'll have one for every year. And, you know, George was a good guy.

He was a real sweetheart. And I wanted to send something out there on this 20th year because I know how much people still think of him and listen to his music. How does it feel to have sent something out there as you put it? A little bit a little bit scary but at the same time it's you know people know a lot about George and or you know through his music but I wanted them to know what he was like as a person, just small things. I wrote about his body.

I wrote about very intimate moments. And I just wanted people to know a little bit more about the man and the humanity, his humanity. You know, as a friend, a husband, a father, all of those themes that you do cover in the book. Well, one of the best ways, of course, to understand what you've done is to hear it. And you very kindly agreed to share one of the first poems in the collection, which talks of the pain of loss and grief. It's called Another Spring.

And as I say, you've kindly agreed to share it with us. So, Olivia, I'll let you take it away. Thank you. Another spring. All I wanted was another spring. Was it so much to ask? I thought it would be granted and we would see another April day that we would warm by each other's side

and our faces would abide by the denier's rule and muffle our cries. The corners of our lips upturned toward the sky, but not enough to mask the cruelty of birth and death, pulling our fingers from each other's tips, scanning our swirling prints to remember the smallest whirls and loops, your palm of stars, in this final party at too early an hour. But the winter wouldn't come and time just stalled. Then the four winds turned on us whistling. That is all. That is all. That is all. On that final day, I cleansed myself with water and air. To be, yes, and it continues.

It's very powerful indeed. Thank you very much for reading some of that. And I suppose, you know, people will be able to, you know, and a lot of people have gone through grief, of course, with the last couple of years with regards to the pandemic. The idea, though, of wanting another spring, it's very powerful. Yeah, it was actually inspired. Can you hear me by the way? Yes, we've got you. Okay. Lost your picture. It was inspired by Edna St. Vincent Millay. And many people have written

about spring. But that's actually all we wanted was another spring. And I really did think we'd have one. But time just ran out. There's a note from George, which says, what right do we have to say anything? And also questions around how we get into these bodies. And you mentioned wanting to talk about him, the man, the body. Was that the kind of philosophical thinking that drew you to him that you used to talk about that was part of your dialogue? It really was. I think that's what brought us together is that, you know,

I was working in the music business. He was clearly in the heart of it. But, you know, there was so much going on around us, and yet we were both, you know, on that inner journey, I suppose, drawn together and curious about other things, curious about that journey. That brought us together from the very beginning. And, you know, once you have an understanding

with your partner about what's really important to you what's really important to you and you know at the end of your life that's what keeps you going and then how did how did you actually first meet I was um I was working at a record label at A&M Records in Los Angeles, and he had a label, Dark Horse Records, which my son is reviving, has revived. And they asked me if I would come to work at that label. I think they spotted me in the yoga pants or something like that. And somebody just really, they didn't interview me. They just asked me if I would come and work there. And I did. And George and I really got along really well. And, you know, we shared this love of Indian classical music. And really, we were sort of partners from then. a great deal because you did move into Friar Park. I don't know if you did, but George certainly did,

which is in Henley-upon-Thames, a Victorian near-Gothic mansion where I believe you still live. Amazing history to it, built by the eccentric lawyer, Sir Frank Crisp, in 1889. But you had to do a lot of work to it, and that included the gardens. It was a lifetime. It was derelict when George moved here. He just wanted to get away, you know, wanted to get somewhere more private. And he found this place that reminded him, I thought, oh, this is, this reminded him of something. Frey Park reminded him of his childhood, you know, playing in the ferns and bracken and out

in the parks on his own. But it was a real mess and we had no intention of setting out, really restoring it. We just started working and became pretty passionate about the garden and, you know, fresh air fiends. Yes. And also he had this thought about being remembered as a gardener. I'm not sure that is what comes to mind for lots of people. As you say, they think of his music. But you say, just relating to the grief point here and what you've been sharing and trying to share through your writing, you say the garden is finally where you lost track of grief and I I hear that again again from people that in greenery they can find some peace yeah I mean I wrote a poem called death is good for the garden and uh looking back this 20 years I thought of all the you know what I've

done in the garden someone said have you always been interested in it? I said, I have. But the last 20 years, I put a lot of energy. Maybe I put that energy into the garden. And he said, oh, death is good for the garden. And I thought, yeah, it really is and and it's true you know especially now everybody you know if everyone could get out in nature every single day and just have a moment on their own a moment being overwhelmed by nature I think we'd all be much healthier yes I mean it is something even we're seeing with some

doctors now social prescribing green spaces that, there's a growing trend as well, that understanding between the links. The poems also reflect some of the most painful times. For instance, he, the poem, he never hurt no one. You write about the night you were woken by that call at an hour, you know, is bad news, as you put it, telling you that John Lennon had been killed. What was that like to go back to, to remember how that felt? You know, trying to distill all these emotions in every single poem, every single poem is true, every line. I didn't embellish anything. And it's really difficult to distill an emotion into a sentence or a moment. And all I could say about that moment was, you know, that phone call in the night, and you know, it's not good. And you don't want to answer the phone but you don't have a choice. And, you know, I happened to be the one

who answered that call, that monumental call in the night to say, someone said, you know, John's dead. And I thought, you know, you have 10 seconds to try and figure out how you're going to break this news. He said, George actually said, who is it? And he thought it was Ringo. That was so sad. You know, really, it was sad. and we just didn't know what to do. We just put the blankets over our heads and, you know, held on for a while. But yeah, you know, one of

those phone calls, you know, is bad news. You don't want to answer, but you don't get to choose. Who was it if it wasn't ringer who do you remember who rang you no no i mean he thought it was ringo oh i'm so sorry oh my apologies i just said one of your one of your friends he said what happened i said it's one of your one of your mates one of your mates he said ringo i said no john know, nobody could imagine that happening. No, not least, of course, those who were close to him. I actually also meant, do you remember who told you the news? Do you remember who let you know?

I did. It was someone, you know, really nearby, Neil Aspinall from Apple. Right. Had been calling and we had the phone switched off. In those days you could do that yes I don't know we had the phone off and so somebody rang from internally in the property uh Neil called someone and that person got in touch with our bedroom wow I mean it must have been very frightening thereafter for for you both as well as the grief. And actually,

you and George were attacked at Friar Park by an intruder. You fended him off. You fought. You learned, I'm sure, a great deal about yourself in that moment, which again, I'm sure would have been in your mind when trying to recall some of these memories. I mean, how difficult was that to recover from? Pretty difficult. I wrote about that, you know. And I mean, just talking about it makes me forget the title. It's serious.

But I thought it was important to write about it. And I wrote about it. I didn't really. The purpose of writing it was to explain that when George died, he had, he had the death that he, I don't want to say wanted, but had prepared for, you know, death proper, not imposter. Because had he died that night, that wasn't his, that wasn't meant to be his death. I really believe that. He was such a, you know, I mean, those things happen to good people. But that was, he felt so bad that John didn't have the chance to leave his body in the way he wanted, you know, under his own terms. And that night, we had the attack was, you know, came, the statistics were not on our side for that, that kind of an attack. But we both managed to

fight our way out of it. You know, it was really visceral. And I wrote it like that. But really, the point of writing it is um is really to show that when his death came you know he was he was very much in charge of that that afternoon and uh in a beautiful in a beautiful way and uh we should all be so lucky to to have that kind of a passing. Yes. Especially after what you went through to have that fight, even more appreciative, I'm sure, of the chance to have it on your own terms as much as you could. Yeah. Somebody else asked me, why did you write about that?

But, you know, it was an interesting experience, not a test, you know, I'd wish on anyone, you know, flight or fight. But as you probably know, when it's your family, you just can't stand there. Nothing. I mean, you having this book out, the poetry book, if you're just joining us, it's called Cain the Lightning, 20 Poems for George by Olivia Harrison, who's talking to us now. Is that important as well, having your own voice out there as well? I was thinking back, I was looking back at an interview I did with Yoko Ono nearly 10 years ago for Woman's Hour. And she said to me, at the time, she said a lot of things, she was very generous in sharing, but she said how hard it was being the wife in some ways. And

she said, being a Beatles wife never ends. I don't know what you make of that. Well, I don't consider myself, I didn't consider myself a Beatle wife because when I met George, his life was so different. And, you know, yes, we had, maybe I was naive. And, you know, certainly that attack showed that that was, it was still ongoing and that they had affected people very deeply in so many ways. But, you know, what a legacy. You know, it's a beautiful legacy to work with. And I've had so much joy in putting together his music and reissuing all the music he left. But yes, it is nice to find, to have this,

this, this book for him. I can hardly speak about it, because I can't believe it happened. I didn't plan it. It just started to come out it. It just started bursting out of me. It really started bursting out of me. And once it started, I just couldn't stop it. And the form wasn't a chosen form. I didn't set out to write it in that way. It just happened. So it must have been brewing and stewing for 20 years.

I certainly wasn't in denial. And I, you know, I faced many things. But, you know, I faced his death, you know, straight on, sober and straight on. And I wasn't suppressing it. And yet, you know, his presence is still around, especially recently, you know, with this Beatles and Get Back. And, you know, in 1995, when they did the Beatle anthology, he said to me, well, I guess it's not going away. And I said, well, I think you can really safely assume that, George. No, it's not going away. No, and just to say about what Yoko Ono was saying, she was saying the Beatles' wife, you know,

is something that's put on her. And, you know, it was a view of her rather than perhaps of herself. And also, obviously, very fond of the legacy and like you, has worked with and looked at the music and the creativity ever since. Just to say, Olivia, a lovely message has come in from one of our listeners listening to you.

She's called Sue and she's emailed to say, I have this picture of George Harrison hanging in my dining room, given to me by my daughter and friends on my 50th birthday 25 years ago. I saw the Beatles live three times. I met them at Heathrow when they returned from their first USA tour. I went to the concert for George at the Royal Albert Hall a year after George died, and I felt that George was present. It was so emotional. The George picture means so much to me. And it's a constant reminder of the huge talent of all four of them. That's from Sue, who's just emailed in, which is a lovely memory there. Wow. Thank you, Sue. And that's another reason to share these poems with people.

Just, you know, he was a really, he was a great person and a wonderful friend and a tender person, understanding and forgiving above all. So forgiving. So much telling friends, you know, don't be so hard on yourself. Well, that's a good. You don't hear people saying that too often. Don't be so hard on yourself. Well, that's a good... You don't hear people saying that too often. Don't be so hard on yourself. And we are.

We're beating ourselves up all the time, you know. It's a good message to think of today. And I should say, mentioning one of those friends, the film director, Martin Scorsese, has actually done the introduction to this collection. He, of course, made Living in the Material World the biography of George's life. I know you also worked on that. Olivia, I could

go on but our time together has come to a close. Olivia Harrison the poems, the book is called Came the Lightning, 20 poems for George Lovely to have you on the programme. Thank you very much Thank you, thank you so much And more messages I'm sure will come and if you want to contribute, I'm sure, will come in.

If you want to contribute, do so, please. 84844. And speaking of contributing, you have been doing that also while I've been talking to Olivia with connection to the strikes and how they are or are not affecting you today because thousands of staff, of course, at Network Rail, 13 rail operators walked out from midnight last night after last-ditch talks to avoid this strike,

the biggest in 30 years, failed. Just one in five trains are expected to run today with further strikes planned later in the week. The Transport Secretary, Grant Shapps, told the BBC The Breakfast TV programme that there will be meetings of the Cobra Emergency Committee about the strikes this week. The RMT Rail Union has accused the government

of preventing employers from freely negotiating on pay. And you, we wanted to test the temperature this morning, how it's been for you and your take on this. Just to go through a few of your messages here, there have been many. Sean says, there's a transport strike today I hadn't noticed, it's thanks to the pandemic. I no longer commute and I work from home instead.

One silver lining after the last two years. Clemency says, the amount of people I know with COVID at the moment, the rail strike this week could end up playing and being a timely circuit breaker. Jo says on email, I've had to book into a hotel so I can get my chemotherapy treatment. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made it to the hospital. Rose talks about her support for the strike, saying she does support it. The rail workers have been driven to take this action. Please represent their point of view.

An anonymous message here. I've been working from home since the first lockdown, saving a fortune. I feel very lucky. My Morris team's planned tour of three pubs around Euston has had to be cancelled. That's a bit of an impact on the social side, it seems. I think that's the social side. Eileen says, my daughter and I had tickets for Queen

and Adam Lambert at the O2 last night. We've been waiting since 2019 for the show. Now we're on an 11-hour bus journey back to Whitby and to add insult to injury, yesterday's train down to the concert was an hour delayed. Many people do not have the option of any protest for better pay and conditions,

yet have to suffer for others. I'm afraid I do not sympathise with the strike, says Eileen. Liz on text says, I'm on my way to Heathrow from Rutland to pick up my daughter. For the first time, I'll see her for the first time in nearly three years. The train strike couldn't be worse timing. What will the airport roads be like? Short stay parking with no other way to get there.

No trains and no underground. Jane, after 10 years of austerity, cuts and pay freezes, then the pandemic, when rail workers kept getting essential workers to work, and we were supposed to be supposedly all in this together, the government is now calling rail workers selfish strike action. It's notoriously difficult to bring about. Strength of feeling in the RMT membership clearly shows how aggrieved rail workers are. They deserve our support. This government does not. Alison has texted, say workers have a fundamental right to withdraw labour if they need to.

It's an emotionally fraught decision to strike, but it may be necessary. No one decides to strike breezily. I'm in the NHS. I'm a senior clinician and I would strike too. And this goes on to say after working all through Covid, staff are exhausted. The government are intractable and do not value the public sector. And another one here, so they carry on, but just one more from Irina who says I support the strike though I use trains daily. Remember bikes are a solution to transport problems. Ideal time for the new cycle lanes to show their worth and help us adapt to the environment.

Friendly travel available, not to cars. Thank you for that, Irina. Of course, lots of people do not have that option. Also might not have a bike, might not have that route to them, quite literally. Thank you for those messages. Keep them coming in. Let us know how you are today and how you're getting on. 84844.

But as the country does face the worst rail strikes in three decades, barristers specialising in criminal law have also voted to go on strike in a row over legal aid, funding and pay. And days of court walkouts are expected from next week. The increase in cuts to legal aid over recent years has meant that many more people face the civil or family court alone without any legal representation. And now a court support service that helps thousands of people

who cannot afford a lawyer could be under threat after having its government funding changed. With offices in 20 civil and family courts across England and Wales, this service is called Support Through Court and it uses volunteers to give practical and emotional help to those navigating the justice system. The charity has been co-funded by the Ministry of Justice for the last eight years. I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of Support Through Court, Eileen Pereira. Eileen, good morning. Good morning Emma. This service was founded more than 20 years ago. It's increased in size, I understand, after 2012, which tied in with access to legal aid being more curtailed.

Is that right? That's right. When the legal aid bill came through, we ended up with our numbers growing rapidly. And then every year after that, they just exponentially went up. And so just before the pandemic, we were at 80,000 contacts in the year. Right. And what is your service primarily doing? And I know, in particular, it has links to women and children. Yes, we work in the civil and family courts, as you said, and we work across most of the areas there. But about 60% of our work is with divorce and child arrangements.

And the majority, I would say 75% of those will probably be women. Within that we work with domestic abuse, we work with homelessness and eviction. There's all sorts of areas that once you get into those arenas, come up. And an example of a woman coming to you then might be they are going through something in the court and they ring you for what kind of support and what do you help them do? Well, I've got an example here. Obviously, these are all anonymised. Someone called Hazel who had a custody hearing

for her daughter who had learning difficulties. And although she had access to the internet in these times of everything moving a lot of the cases are now online and digitalized she didn't really know how to deal with it all and she came to us we helped her to access the right forms to sort out what she needed to send in and all the legal correspondence that she needed to do and we were able to help her work through the next steps so that she felt more confident going into the hearing and that's a really important part of what we do because people who have no legal representation are often incredibly anxious and if we can give them the

courage and the strengths to go through the case with the knowledge that they've got the right pieces of paper in front of them makes a huge difference. A statement that we have from the Ministry for Justice because I know you're concerned about funding, and I just want to get into the detail of that if I can. A statement says, we want access to early legal support to be available to those who need it most, and charities will soon be able to bid for new grant funding, so even more people can benefit from their services. How does that tally up with what you think might happen to your funding? Well, the funding that's being spoken of, part of it was the pot that we've been having our money from for the past eight years. That's been put into a much bigger pot, around five million.

And we're being asked now to go through an open grants process where really it was ring-fenced previously. So anybody who thinks they're doing the work that the grant shows um will be able to apply and we've been talking about this with the moj since um december january time uh having only had four months notice at the end of our grant and now we're told it's coming it's coming it's coming but it's not been signed off at the top until it's signed off at the top and and there have been huge delays, not least because Lord Walson resigned, we're now in a situation where we're looking at redundancies and are actively working on that because of the fact that this funding, we've worked out that we don't know what it will be.

We don't think it will be at the levels that we had before. And we can't wait any longer. We can't use our reserves to wait for the MOJ. So have you got any idea of timeframe? Because I suppose the argument seems to be back from the MOJ without getting into the middle of the two, that there will be the opportunity to receive the same degree of funding, albeit from a different route or from a different pot. But do you have any idea when you will know what will be what well the last i heard was last week and i was told it probably would be signed off in the next

three or four days but it still hasn't been right um and as far as the amounts go we have got absolutely no idea of the criteria the levels of funding or anything else to do with this grant so we can't plan on something that we have no information on and good governance in a charity means that you work to keep the charity going and if that means cutting back then unfortunately that's what you have to do. Coming away from funding for a moment, I mentioned around the vote from the Criminal Bar Association which represents barristers in England and Wales, voters going on strike over the situation with legal aid of course strikes are very much in people's mind today. What do you make of that decision?

And what do you see as the impact in terms of that? I can understand why they're doing it. Legal aid in the criminal courts is very low in terms of the payments they receive. Everybody imagines the barrister's terribly wealthy. But if you look at all the junior barristers in the lower ranks, they are paid very, very little through legal aid. I couldn't quote the amounts, but I know the fact. And I don't blame them, but I find it incredible that our barristers are considering legal action, let alone taking it, because there's such a huge backlog. It's over 50,000 cases there's a backlog in, and they're just

not being heard. And legal aid has been cut and cut and cut over the years. We lost it to divorce a long time ago and that just caused huge problems for women and children and families and it continues to do so. Eileen Pereira, I'm sure we will talk again, Chief Executive of the charity Support Through Court. Now a new story in today's paper in The Mirror suggests that Boris Johnson may have spoken to Downing Street aides about getting his then-fiancée, now wife, Mrs Carrie Johnson, two roles while she was living in No. 10 with the Prime Minister as, as I say, then his fiancée.

We're talking about the timing of autumn 2020 and sources have told The Daily Mirror that the Prime Minister raised a possible new environmental role, two new environmental roles, either on the COP26 summit or around that or with the Royal Family. His closest advisors are said to have vetoed both suggestions.

But what questions does this raise about her being the victim of sexism and the idea of her as a private citizen, which has been the response from her spokesperson for several of these sorts of stories. Well, let's talk to the journalist behind this particular story, the Daily Mirror political editor, Pippa Carrera, who joins me now. Pippa, good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Thanks for having me on. What are these two roles, first of all? So the first one was a role with COP26, which obviously was the big climate summit held in Glasgow last year, which the Prime Minister wanted to make a Green Olympics, was very keen on using it to promote Britain's post-Brexit role on the world stage. And at the time, you should remember, his wife, Carrie Johnson, was on maternity leave, having previously worked for Oceana, the ocean conservation charity. And my understanding is that she was looking around for a new job. And the prime minister thought that this would be a good fit.

Carrie Johnson was, of course, a conservative communications chief. So she has the experience there. And she also is a well-known environmentalist. The range of roles that started from being a special advisor that was suggested, sources tell me, special advisor to being an ambassador for the summit, which would get her fully involved in it, but would also put her in the public eye. And the suggestion with both the special advisor role

and the ambassadorial role were that they wouldn't really be suitable for Prime Minister's wife, first of all, to be talking daily to the press, as a special adviser would do. Nor would it be easy for her to maintain her sort of defence, if you like, of being a private citizen if she put herself out there as an ambassador. The second role was for the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's Earthshot Prize, which was looking for a communications chief. And the Prime Minister thought that that might be a good fit too and thought that a good idea of his then very new Cabinet Secretary, Simon Case, who'd previously been a private secretary to Prince William, might put in a word or take soundings.

I don't think that ever happened. Certainly the advice, again, was that it wasn't appropriate for the Prime Minister's wife to do that role, regardless of her own professional experience. And what sources close to Carrie Johnson have told me is that she was in discussions at the time with the Aspinall Foundation about getting the job, which she now has as their director of communications. And at no point was she actually aware that her husband was trying to find her other openings. There'll be some listening to this thinking and there's some wider context as to this story in terms of something that happened at the weekend with the Times newspaper, which I'll get to. But some may be thinking, you know, Pippa, you've broken a lot of stories about Partygate, mainly in terms of Downing Street and what's what's gone on with that.

Why have you spent some time writing this up today? Why do you think this is in the public interest? So this actually stems from the story that you mentioned, Emma, that on Friday night, the Times ran a story for Saturday's paper suggesting that the Prime Minister had wanted to appoint Carrie Johnson. Actually, she was then Carrie Simmons. She was his lover rather than his wife at that point. He was still married to Marina Wheeler. And that he wanted to appoint her from her role at CCHQ, where she was previously Director of Communications, to be his Chief of Staff. And that his senior team thought that this wouldn't be suitable,

not least because they were having a relationship, but also because it was a taxpayer-funded role, and she was qualified for it. So they vetoed that role. Now, that was a taxpayer-funded role. And we had this strange scenario on Friday night where The Times pulled the story after Downing Street got in touch with them. My understanding is it wasn't a legal issue with it, but there was a feeling that Number 10 wasn't happy with the story and that they wanted it to be withdrawn. And that, I mean, it's the classic Streisand effect, isn't it? That, you know, you probably, that story would have made a couple of paragraphs in a few Sunday paper long reads. In fact, it was in Lord Ashcroft's books a couple of years ago and was written about, serialised in the

Daily Mail at the time without any problems. But by withdrawing the story or encouraging the Times to remove the story from its website and replacing it in the paper, suddenly it piqued everyone's interest. Then afterwards, Number 10 actually denied, not directly, but Kerry Johnson's spokesman and indirectly, Number 10 denied that Boris Johnson had in fact tried to appoint her at this point. In the process yesterday of speaking to people about that story, and I have to say I had three independent sources all telling me that that story was correct, despite the denials, I came across the fact that the prime minister had on on these other occasions tried to appoint mrs johnson now these weren't weren't necessarily

taxpayer roles uh they weren't necessarily paid by the taxpayer i should say obviously the cop one would be a you know an ambassador role for a government position but it did strike me that it was interesting in the public interest um if the prime minister if not if they were denying that he'd made this earlier offer but there are further examples of um of him sort of having discussions with aids about whether there was another role for her and that would be a problem in terms of ethics problem of conflict of interest i think i think it'd be conflict of interest if it was the cop role of course i think it might be a problem of um due process if it was the cop role, of course. I think it might be a problem of due process if it was relying on a former palisade that now worked for him to put in a word

for the royal role. And potential nepotism, of course, as well, around, as you said, due process. I mean, just a few statements here. About the Times article for which you mentioned, the Times did print this report on Saturday and then it was removed from later editions and not published online. Yesterday, Number 10 said it had spoken to the Times before the story came out. We got in touch with the Times this morning again and a spokesperson for the paper said that they wouldn't be offering anyone to comment on this or any further comment on that. Going back to your story, there is a direct rebuttal saying

the Prime Minister has never recommended Mrs Johnson for a government role or won as part of the Earthshot Prize and a spokesperson for Carrie Johnson says this is an old story which is as untrue now as it was then. So what do you say to both of those? Well, the first denial from number 10, I mean, the story, if you read it, if your listeners read it,

doesn't actually say that he recommended her for the role. The story, the point of it is that he had the discussion with his senior aides on several occasions and that they persuaded him that it wouldn't be a good idea and the idea got dropped. And that hasn't been denied, that specific? That hasn't been denied. That absolutely hasn't been denied. And I suppose, which is what I was just saying at the beginning of this, which

is what you were talking about, the idea of her being a private citizen, because this is about who we elect, who has influence, who doesn't, and how they get those roles. One of the other themes, whenever a story has come up, and not every single story, but a lot of them, from the spokesperson for the Prime Minister's wife, is that it's sexist, that there is sexism at the heart of these sorts of allegations. And I suppose what your story today perhaps puts a question about is this idea of her as a private citizen

and that some of this isn't sexist, it's what's happening or what was talked about by the Prime Minister, we should say, in this particular instance, and that is something you think people should know. Yeah, I think it was instigated by the Prime Minister, we should say, in this particular instance. And that is something you think people should know. Yeah, I think it was instigated by the Prime Minister. I don't think the story is actually, although clearly she's a key part of it, the story actually isn't about Carrie Johnson. It's about Boris Johnson and the way he makes decisions and the way he doesn't necessarily follow the normal procedures,

not just in terms of finding jobs for family, but in all sorts of other areas that we've all reported on in recent years. You know, she's clearly his wife, so therefore is a part of it, but my focus is very much on him. And actually the AIDS, my sources said to me that the point, the whole point about the AIDS vetoing these roles, at its heart, it was about protecting her, the fact that she, you know, is a private citizen, and certainly, you know, was at that point. And that if either of those roles went forward, then that becomes clouded, and it becomes a lot more difficult for the defence of, well, you know, she's the Prime Minister's wife, why are you

writing this story? Absolutely justifiable defence, 100% agree with that, if she then puts herself in the public eye, or even goes further and puts herself in a position where she's talking on a daily basis to journalists, albeit about the environment rather than about politics. But of course, it's all interrelated. So their suggestion, my sources, was that these aides were doing it ultimately to protect her as much as the Prime Minister. So I think it's kind of like, you know, it's anything but sexism. The political editor for the Daily Mirror behind that story today,

Pippa Crear, thank you very much for your time and some of that analysis, which of course is a lot of detail. You may have followed what had happened with that Times story and its removal and this is perhaps a follow-on from that that you wanted or may have wanted more detail about. You're still getting in touch with connection to the strikes this morning.

I totally support the rail workers, reads this message. We saw in the pandemic how we all relied on poorly paid transport, health, public service and retail workers. Withdrawal of labour is often the only weapon there is. No one wants to strike, but they've been driven to it by an ungrateful, out of touch and, as this message puts it, arrogant government. As a self-employed pensioner living in Cornwall and working three days a week in London, this could not be worse.

Remembering the last time the unions brought the country to its knees, we work by candlelight. And a completely different note, giving a nod to the fact it's solstice, the longest day, June 21st. Rachel says, happy solstice. Great start to my day after a cold 6am swim for the solstice in Leon C. And now I feel like I can tackle anything. Well, that sounds great. Thank you very much for that message. Keep them coming in. But of course, you might need to tackle something

if you're trying to get somewhere during these strikes and keep those coming in too. Now, one of the most familiar plots on screen is the coming of age narrative. First relationships, puberty, of course, awkward sex. And First relationships, puberty, of course awkward sex and for instance this weekend a new TV series was released on Amazon Prime, The Summer I Turned Pretty, based on the 2009 New York Times best-selling novel. The characters are supposed to be 15 and 16 year olds but the majority of the cast are actually in their early 20s, something that's considered quite a small age gap. But why are films and TV shows that focus on the teenage experience so often played by older actors? We often talk about this

the other way around, why older roles are played by younger actors, but we're looking at this particular lens and this end of the spectrum, if you like. And what impact could that be having on younger viewers? Alex Hart is studying English and history at Durham University, and Tiana Haffenden is a young actor. Both of them join me now. Alex, good morning first to you. When did you first notice this and start thinking about it? Good morning. I am a massive fan of the 1970s musical Grease. And it was when I hit my last year of school and I was watching it at that age.

And I thought, my gosh, you and I was watching it at that age and I thought oh my gosh you know this I'm finally at that age I've been watching it for years and that time when I watched it I was having a look at Stockard Channing having a look at Rizzo and Danny and all of the the typical characters um and I realized that something felt a bit off so I did a bit of googling and it found out that they were actually in their 30s, a lot of them, when filming it. Which is a funny thing to know, isn't it? Yeah. Stockard Channing was 33 and she was supposed to be, you know, me a year or two ago. So that massive difference between the age of the actors and the age of the characters was blaring me in the face. But I hadn't realised it for so long. And I began thinking about it. And I realised that there's a lot of issues that come with that to do with the body image and the way that young people

view themselves, and also to do with what we perceive as acceptable in a sexual sense. There's definitely the fetishisation of schoolgirls, which has been a result of these older actors taking part in some really quite steamy plot lines when they're supposed to be under the age of 18. But surely that's about the writing as opposed to the casting, or you don't think it would happen if you had younger people playing it? Well, there's a lot that wouldn't actually be allowed if you had age-appropriate actors playing the roles.

I do think a lot of it is to do with the writing, and you've got these, you know, 40, 50 year old script writers and producers sitting in a room deciding what 13, 14, 15 year olds would be doing. I mean, I recently published a novel and I started writing it when I was 12. And it's about 12. And then I was reading it, you know, 16, 17, 18 years old and thinking, oh, no, this isn't what a 12 year old would think or do or say. But then I remembered I was 12 when I wrote it. So if that's how much I forgot in the space of four or five years, you can imagine how removed these script writers are.

But you're not allowed to show sexual scenes of a very graphic nature when you have actors under the age of 18. Well, there's also a very practical, sort of almost boring logistical point about why some of the roles are given to older actors, because they can't actually employ some younger actors for certain reasons and child labour and all of that. But I know you're aware of those points, but you're making a kind of bigger point around representation and the impact. Let's bring in an actor. Tiana, what's your take on this? Because I know you also have had experience of this as an actor. Yeah, so I am 22 now and I look quite young. So everything that I audition for is usually under 18. And I feel like it can be a double-edged sword because obviously I want roles,

I want to be able to play in these roles. However, I do understand that having someone who is over the age of 18 playing a teenager can be troubling. I think it comes a lot with the expectations of the body image of what should a teenager look like. There are a lot of actors at the moment that are playing teenagers that are in their 30s which is very far spread you know and I think as a teenager watching that you you would see those actors and think that is how I should look that is how you think look, that is how I should be.

So you think it's influencing on the look side of things? Yeah, on the look, in loads of different parts of it, but I think especially with body image and just how certain things look on screen, that is a big part of it. Do you have to, are you expected, sorry to cut across, are you expected to do anything different to the way you look and the way you, I mean, obviously the way you present is acting.

You know, you've got to play the role and take the guide from the work that you're given. But is there any pressure actually to look a certain way or do certain things when you're going for younger roles? Yeah, I think when I'm going for younger roles, I tend to just have to strip back a bit more when thinking about makeup and things like that. Even just like having my glasses on, I know I look a bit more when thinking about makeup and things like that um even just like having my glasses on I know I look a bit younger uh so usually I would maybe have my glasses on just to like show that I'm like a bit younger a bit you know studious and I mean is is it on your information when you go for a casting how old you are are. Yes, usually it is. It usually says, oh, we want you to play down. The character's around 16, 15, whatever. So I do know beforehand.

And to Alex's point, is it hard? I mean, there'll be some listening to this because we've had various sorts of chats like this before, thinking, well, a role of an actor is to act. You know, they get given the material and that's the whole point you embody the role and you take it forward with with the direction that you get and the insight you can bring but is it hard to and is it getting harder as you get older to to remember

and to do a good enough job of a younger role? I think it does get harder as you get older of course like I went to school years ago now so that experience is quite far away from me and also just the little firsts that teenagers go through like that is something that I haven't experienced for a long time obviously as an actor that is your job you are supposed to take on and embody the role and sometimes you just have to do a bit more research you have to work a bit harder to play a role so it's still possible for sure but it's just whether it should be a thing that happens is a and and you are what did you say 20 22 22 now and how much longer do you think you will be able to to get those roles the 16 year old roles the younger even well I get a lot of acting teachers and people telling me that I will probably do young roles for a really long

time why is that just because of how you look just because of how I look yeah and obviously that means I would be playing characters that have a lot less like emotional depth just because of how the characters are portrayed usually when they're teenagers. And it's something that I think about a lot because I would love to play roles that have more to them. And I think that teenagers definitely can have that. I just don't think that they're written like that.

But I could be playing a 16-year-old when I'm like 26. I don't know. And to your point, work I suppose at the same time you know you want to have the work and be in work yeah and that's why it's a hard thing because obviously there are things in the industry that I do disagree with and I don't want to be a part of letting something continue to happen um when it's got a bad effect on people. However, it is a role, it is, you know, your livelihood at the end of the day. So I understand why people would still accept the roles. But yeah, I guess it's like, it's a part of everything.

Like if they were written older or if the longevity within a woman's career was longer when it comes to acting, then that wouldn't really be an issue. That'd be good to sort that bit out, wouldn't it? Yeah. Alex, to bring you back into this, I know you were thinking about it and then you wrote about it. What sort of response did you get when you published the piece that you wrote about this? I mean, there was a lot of people talking about the practical side of things, certainly in terms of child safety laws and ensuring as well that we don't objectify young teenage actors as well. But I completely understand the need sometimes to have older actors playing younger characters. And I also

understand the desire of older actors to keep getting those roles. But I do think there's a couple of things that are invisible to the adult eye that perhaps you'd only pick up on if you were 15 or 16. Because I've been very aware in the last three or four years how much my own body has changed. And I didn't think that between the age of 16 and 19, there'd be that much difference. And I've been quite surprised by that. And I do think that sometimes these programs aren't actually designed for the people that they're written about. Sex Education, the popular show, has an age rating of 18, and yet it's about 16 and 17 year olds. Director of Euphoria said that he wasn't necessarily aiming the programme to be for teenage consumption, even though it's about 16, 17 year olds.

What's the issue there, do you think? What's what's wrong with that? I think as soon as you're having older audiences watching teenagers, especially in some very promiscuous and and graphic situations, you're warping their opinions about a group of people that they're not a part of. Well, that's a very interesting thing we could pick up on and spend a bit more time on. I've got to call it a day for this particular discussion. I'm sure we'll get some responses. Alex Hart, thank you to you, Tiana Huffington, and to you.

Good luck with everything and keeping going with those roles. I did promise you a very special guest to end today's programme. Today in the UK is the summer solstice and a journey for us to go on. That's the longest day, of course, for those living north of the equator,

which, of course, means on the other side of the world, it's the shortest or midwinter. And for the very first time, the British Antarctic Survey have got an all-female team wintering on Bird Island since it was designated a station for Antarctic research in 1963. Midwinter is a moment of celebration on the British Antarctic Survey site where they have a big meal and give each other presents. And this year is extra special

as it marks the 60th anniversary of the organisation. The Bird Island Research Station leader, Imogen Lloyd, is joining us live from there right now. Imogen, welcome to the programme. Happy Midwinter's Day, I think. Hello, thank you very much. It's an exciting day here. So we're looking forward to a return of the light and I hope you're all having a good mid-summer up north.

Yes, we've already had a message about someone going for a very cold swim already this morning. Just tell us where Bird Island is and perhaps a little bit about the light there, the temperature, if you could paint a picture. Yes, so Bird Island is an absolutely tiny island off the north-west tip of South Georgia. It's about 5km long and 800m wide and it's currently still pitch black outside.

It won't get light until about 11 o'clock. We've got a light dusting of snow, but not quite enough for a snowman yet, but fingers crossed in the next few days. So yeah, pretty cold weather, proper winter. And an all-female team? We have, yes, four of us.

And we happen to be all female, yeah. Well, it sounds like there's also these celebrations planned. Why do British Antarctic Survey teams normally celebrate this day and how do you mark it? It's been celebrated for over a century. So the British Antarctic Survey has got three wintering research stations at the moment. So we always celebrate the week weekend celebrations with food, games.

And it just marks the shortest day of the winter and the return of the light, especially for those down in Antarctica who have full darkness. Yes. Well, I hope it's a good celebration. And, of course, the research continues. What sort of research work are you and your team, Yes. Well, I hope it's a good celebration. And of course, the research continues. What sort of research work are you and your team, your crewmates, looking at at the moment? So winter is always a slightly quieter time of year for us.

But we still have quite a lot going on. We have three different roles here on Bird Island. We have a seal role they're looking at at the moment. We have albatrosses. We're doing quite a lot of GPS tracking of them to see where they're getting the food for their chicks. And we're also tracking penguins as well to see where they're finding their food. So it's always busy, but slightly quieter in the winter.

Slightly quieter. Can you sleep a bit longer? Is that allowed? A tiny bit longer. We certainly don't get up quite as early well it's it's fascinating to hear and um you know the the fact that there's also this uh this celebration is also very nice to think about today and do you give each other presents have we got that right we do so it's a it's a tradition to make presents for somebody in secret for each other um so we've all got a present ready to give to each other this morning it's a bit of a rush to finish them as usual um but that's always a nice tradition to do are you allowed to share just with a few people what what you've made for somebody oh i don't think i can my teammates are listening next door we haven't given them yet

i mean is it can you give me a hint i'm just trying to think what you do on uh you know the bird island as the bird island research station leader do you build something do you create something because you can't go down the shops can you uh so it's always uh it's something so made a lot of people do something in the workshop with WordTor. We've got all sorts of materials here we can use. And I think we've all made quite great presents this year, but I can't really reveal much as they were listening. I'm always trying to get more information than I'm

allowed to. It's a habit of a lifetime. Thank you very much for taking some time to talk to us. It's really fascinating. And of course people will be thinking about what they're going to do, you know, on this day on solstice. Imogen Lloyd there, the Bird Island Research Station Leader. And I hope whatever you're doing, if you are doing anything to market, it will be good fun. It's always my husband's birthday. So that's always involving cake on

this day and lasting a long time. Thank you very much indeed for your messages this morning and for your company as always a huge range of messages and responses to the discussions that we've had and I will be back with you tomorrow as always from 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one. What makes you feel physically and mentally stronger? The act of skating. That's my zen. That's my relaxation time.

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