Woman's Hour - Cellist Ayanna Witter-Johnson, Women & renting, Catherine Dalton cricketer, Women's peace petition, Maggie Murphy CEO, Lewes FC

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

There is huge pressure in the rental market and women are being hit hardest of all, according to The Financial Times. Average rents have increased so much that “there are almost no affordable one-bedroom lets in London and the East of England for the average single mother”, according to ONS and rental market data analysed by the Financial Times. Women, and especially single mothers, are being forced to relocate away from networks of family and friends and even their children’s schools, in order to find somewhere affordable to live. Amy Borrett, a Data Journalist at the Financial Times and Victoria Benson, CEO of Gingerbread, the charity for single parent families, join Anita Rani to discuss the issues.   The singer/songwriter and cellist Ayanna Witter-Johnson has collaborated with a prestigious range of artists from Andrea Bocelli and Anoushka Shankar to Nitin Sawhney and Akala, as well as touring as part of Peter Gabriel’s band.  She has now joined forces with the London Symphony Orchestra Percussion Ensemble.  Their new album Ocean Floor explores stories relating to Ayanna’s ancestral heritage, culture and identity, and blurs the boundaries between chamber music, jazz and soul.  Ayanna performs in the studio, alongside Neil Percy, the LSO’s Principal Percussionist.A hundred years ago, nearly 400,000 ordinary women in Wales signed a petition calling on the women of America to join them in demanding a world without war. Today a purple plaque is being unveiled in Aberystwyth to commemorate Annie Hughes Griffiths who led the delegation of Welsh women who brought the petition to the US and to the President.  Dr Jenny Mathers, a senior lecturer in International Politics at Aberystwyth University, is co-editor of the book The Appeal 1923-23: The Remarkable Story of the Welsh Women's Peace Petition which is being launched today at the National Library of Wales. Catherine Dalton is making waves in professional cricket, having just become the first woman to be hired as a men’s fast-bowling coach. A cricketer for Essex, Catherine has played four one day internationals and four T-20 internationals for Ireland - and she'll soon be joining the Pakistan Super League side The Maltan Saltans for their 2024 season. In 2017, Lewes FC became the first English club to split its budget and resources equally between the men’s and women’s teams. It's just been announced the club's owners - made up entirely of its fans - voted in favour of moving forward with potential new investment in their women's team. It would come from Mercury 13, a consortium bidding to acquire women's football clubs in Europe and Latin America. Maggie Murphy, CEO of the club, and celebrated change-maker on the Woman's Hour Power List this year, explains why this is a big moment for how women's football could change and grow as its popularity continues to rise. Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Proper Friday treat for you all, live music on the show today. The wonderful Ayanna Witter-Johnson will be telling us about her new album with the London Symphony Orchestra. She is here and will be playing alongside Neil Percy from the LSO Percussion Ensemble.

Morning to you both. Morning. Welcome, Ayanna. Good morning. Morning. Welcome, Neil. Great to be here. In fact, because you're here, why don't we just have a burst? Can we? A little something. Oh, magnificent.

Thank you so much. We'll be hearing more from them later. But before we move on, Neil, is it true that you spotted the gift that Ayana has back in 2011? Tell us that story. Well, I certainly had the privilege of working with Ayana in 2011 under the auspices of the LSO's brilliant scheme, Sound Hop Scheme, which gives fantastic young composers like Ayana kind of a formative experience of having their music played by members of the London Symphony Orchestra. And so we played this piece, this brilliant piece that Ayana bought,

and she also played in it as well and demonstrated her, well, unique skill set, in my opinion. And that was it. I was in. I was totally invested. I thought, this is absolutely fabulous. Went to speak to Ayanna to congratulate her at the end of that performance and said we will work together again in the future I don't know when it is and when that will be but we will be doing something in the future and here we are did he predict that Ayanna that you'd be on woman's hour as well together

not quite that far. like me, talking? Was it someone at the beginning of your career who guided you and you've gone on to do great things? I don't know why it's making me think of that advert. Was it a chocolate advert? They can't sing, they can't play, but they'll go a long way. That was a prediction of sorts. So who said, what about your ability? And did it come true for better or for worse?

Get in touch with the programme in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email us by going to4844. You can email us by going to our website. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And please feel free to send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note on 03700 100 444. And remember to check all the terms and conditions that can be found on our website. Also on the programme today, Catherine Dalton has become the first woman to be hired as a men's fast bowling coach. Yep, we're going to be talking cricket.

We're also going to be discussing football as there's a potential game-changing moment happening at Lewis FC in the women's game. Their brilliant CEO, Maggie Murphy, will be telling us all about it. And also on the programme, we'll hear about the 400,000 Welsh women who petitioned for peace. All of that to come. And of course, your stories, please. 84844 is the number to text if someone did make a prediction about you.

Did it come true for better or for worse? I'd love to hear about it. But first, there's huge pressure in the rental market. Yesterday, the Bank of England voted to keep interest rates at their highest level for 15 years. High interest rates mean high mortgage payments. And since many landlords have mortgages, that means higher rents for tenants. The Financial Times has crunched the data and found this is hitting women hardest. In large parts of southern England, there almost no one-bedroom lets that the

average woman could afford. Single mothers are being forced to relocate away from friends and family. Well to discuss this further Amy Borrett is a data journalist at the Financial Times. She joins me in the studio and also in the studio I'm with Victoria Benson who's CEO of Gingerbread, the charity for single parent families. Welcome to both of you. Amy, let's get into some of the data because this is what you do. And you've looked into this. What did you look at in particular? It's nice to be here. Thank you. So we looked at official data on social surveys and rental from the Office for National Statistics

and using their recommendation that households should not spend more than 30% of their income on housing costs, we calculated what was affordable for them and then went to Property Consultancy 20CI to see what proportion of new advertised lets in the year ending March 2023 were affordable for different household groups. And tell me what you found that's taking place between men and women. Why is the average woman affected more than the average man? So there are just far fewer options available for women. And a big part of this is that on average they earn a lot less than men do. The situation is bad across the country.

So across England as a whole, the average one-bedroom property is affordable for a single man, but not for the average single woman. But obviously, as we all know, the situation is especially bleak in London. So for a single mother in particular, if they're on the average London income, they cannot afford a one bedroom property because it costs more than their entire income. And it's not just London, though, that's bad. Across the country, there is a really bleak situation like you said in the south and the east um but when we were looking at those new property lets um less than two percent of those were affordable for single mothers um and when i spoke to a case study she

said that even if the advertised price looks like it's affordable that doesn't mean in reality that it is because you go to these properties and there are other people who are willing to pay more than the advertised price who can put down a bigger deposit or pay you know a many months rent in advance and so it's really really tricky if you're looking to buy somewhere sorry rent somewhere at the moment and you looked at available rental properties in London yeah and you struggled like you said to find anywhere that the average woman could afford but what what did you find so there were very few options the options tended to be house shares or even room shares. Some of the examples were a cosy box room where it was a single bed and a house share. Bearing in mind this is on the

median income for a single mother, that's not really an ideal situation. There was also a houseboat with 10 other people and a lot of the listings that were affordable were actually in exchange for cheaper rent. They were hoping that people would provide part time care to someone who was elderly or sick. And obviously, if you're caring for a child, that's not really an ideal situation to be in. Goodness me. So people are prepared to negotiate if you can bring other skills. Yes. Victoria, CEO of Gingerbread, I'm going to bring you in here because the problem is more acute for single mothers, as Amy has just pointed out there. Remind us how many of those are affected.

So 90% of single parents are women. And we hear calls to our helpline all the time about people who are really struggling to afford rents in the places that they live. The vast majority of single parents do rent. Owning a property is just a distant dream for many of them. And we're finding increasingly that people are having to move away from their support networks, from their children's schools, simply because they can't afford anywhere to rent. And what about access to housing benefit

if they're on low income? So single parents, the vast majority of fact, around 90% will be on universal credit when it's fully rolled out. And in theory, they should receive their rent through universal credit. The issue is the local housing allowance, which is the amount that the rent reimbursement is capped at, hasn't been increased since 2020. And of course, rents have really increased since then. So many tenants, single parents are finding that they simply can't find a property which falls within the local housing allowance for their area. And the local housing allowance is meant to cover the bottom or the cheapest 30% of properties in any area.

And increasingly it's covering something like 5% or in London 2%. So it really does need to be increased so that single parents can stay in the areas where their support networks are, where their children's schools are, where their jobs are. I mean, I'm just wondering what landlords are prepared to do and whether either of you have found that they are less prepared. How do they feel about taking on single mothers in their properties? I mean, speaking to the woman in St Albans that we featured in our article she said that it was really difficult they weren't unsympathetic but if people are coming in a kind

of more financially stable position if they've got two incomes maybe they have less debt things like that then that is going to count against single mothers so it is a very tricky situation because there's so much competition for properties at the moment. We do get calls to our helpline where single parents are telling us that they feel that landlords are discriminating against them by having unreasonable expectations in terms of rents or deposits or simply telling them that they're not able to rent properties to them and many single parents do feel that that's quite discriminatory. So what are the options open to them?

Well, they have to look further afield in areas where they can afford the rent, which will mean moving away from where they live, which might mean moving away from their childcare, their informal childcare network, their support network. Increasingly, many of these single mums are survivors of domestic abuse. And they've, you know, gone through really traumatic experiences. And their networks are just absolutely critical to them. So having to move away can have a huge impact on their mental health and well-being. And you also, Amy, spoke to Shelter in Crisis about the sacrifices that single women with children are making in order to afford rent.

What did you learn? So homelessness rates have increased substantially even over the past year, and especially for single women and for single mothers across the country. And it's really difficult because councils are struggling to kind of keep up supporting all these people. And women are having to make very difficult decisions to get by, whether it's cutting back on food, as Victoria said, going back to unsafe or unhappy relationships. And it's a really tricky situation to be in. We also looked at the numbers in terms of where single mothers were located in the country. And since 2015, there's been a decrease of a third in the number of single mothers in London. We don't know for sure, obviously, that that is rental prices that's forced them out, but it seems likely that that's

a significant contributing factor. If you're listening to this and you can relate to what's being said, we'd love to hear from you this morning. It's 84844 is the number to text. The other thing that struck me, Amy, from your article and the case study is that she wasn't prepared to use her real name because of the shame attached. Tell me more about what was said around that. I think, you know, it's a really tricky situation to be in. And while obviously everyone is very supportive around her, she doesn't want people to pity her and she doesn't want it to kind of count against her in the future. She's trying to get help from, you know, various sources. And it is a really tricky situation to be in. And it's really

affected her mental health. She's had very, you know, difficult situations with health in the past. And she said this is the first time she genuinely feels really stressed and anxious and depressed. And you can really relate to these people because it's not an easy situation to be in. And she was a single mother with a son at uni, but on a decent salary. She was, yeah. And that's what really surprised me. Her housing budget was many times the average income. Was it £1,400 a month?

Yeah. And that's a significant amount of money to be spending on housing each month. But even then, she still couldn't find even a one-bedroom property, which would have meant her son at university would have had to sleep on the sofa when he came home. And you're nodding there. You're finding, Victoria, that people on higher incomes are now coming to you. Yes, we are. And they feel that they oughtn't to be struggling with money because they haven't done in the past. And they feel very alone. And they don't realise, actually, that there are many people in the same situation to them.

So I would say to any single parents listening, many single parents who, you know, in previous times have considered themselves to be high earning and have enough money they they really are finding it really really tough at the moment can we get some more numbers from you i mean like what's the sort of what kind of wages are we talking about here what have you got as the median so in london the average single mother is earning about 1200 pounds,200 each month in England as a whole it's slightly higher at £1,300 for a single woman in London it's around £3,100 a month so it's quite a lot of money and we were using 30% of that as the benchmark for what was affordable and you know there are other people might use slightly different benchmarks of what is affordable or not.

But the fact that in some instances for single mothers in London in particular, we were talking about all of that being spent on income. I don't think anyone can disagree that that is not affordable. Their entire income? Yeah. Just on housing. And for single fathers? For single fathers, it's a lot higher. Single fathers, as Victoria pointed out, are a lot less common in terms of single parents. We're talking about in London around £2,000 a month. So not quite double, but increased by 15% for single mothers, 12% for single women in the first quarter of 2023. Is it the same picture across the UK? Yes, I mean, I saw some stats from Shelter, which said that one in 43 lone mothers in England are currently in a temporary accommodation, which is just shocking. And that, you know, that compares

to over one in 107 families so um you know it's the situation is much worse for for lone mothers than it is for couple families um and it's just getting worse and of course once you're in temporary accommodation it's really hard to get out because it costs more um and and you often have to do move away from from schools um and and you're just stuck in a situation where things just get worse and worse. And of course, it's not just about money because people's mental health also suffers in those situations, as does children's education. Absolutely. And the children's mental health as well. So what are the solutions?

I mean, that's a really difficult question. We spoke to quite a lot of experts about this. One, you know, kind of potential bright light in the future is that there's this Renters Reform Act that's being debated in Parliament. And that would introduce measures that would be helpful for all tenants, for example, banning no-fault evictions. But the experts we spoke to said it's more about the wider policy context as well. So Victoria mentioned housing allowances, obviously unfreezing those so that they increase as prices do would be hugely beneficial, especially for the most vulnerable people.

Also other limits on benefits such as the two child cap on benefits would be an important change. And experts also pointed to the housing supply in general. If we want to make housing affordable for women, we need to build more housing, not not just private rentals but also social rentals. Thank you both for coming in to speak to me this morning Amy Burrett data journalist at the FT and Victoria Benson CEO of the charity Gingerbread thank you both very much we have had a statement from a government spokesperson who says we're helping to ease the pressure of rising rents investing over 30 billion pounds on housing support this year on top of record financial support worth around 3 300 pounds per household we've also maintained our 1 billion pound boost to local housing allowance while our discretionary housing payments provide a safety net for anyone struggling your thoughts keep them coming in 84844

we've had a message here from someone saying i work in social housing and even in this sector rents and service charges have increased drastically with benefit caps many people are struggling and finding themselves in severe rent arrears and facing legal action exactly what you've just been talking about thank you both very much now my next guest is making waves in professional cricket having just become the first woman to be hired as a men's fast bowling coach. Catherine Dalton is a cricketer for Essex and has played four one day internationals and four T20 internationals for Ireland. And she'll soon be joining the Pakistan Super League side, the Multan Sultans, for their 2024 season. For those who might be not so familiar with the world of cricket, fast bowling cricket is just what it sounds like. I can't believe I'm about to explain this, Catherine, where you could do it for me. Catherine, what is fast? Tell us, for people who don't know, what is fast bowling

cricket? Well, hello and thank you for having me. Thank you. Yeah, fast bowling is literally what it says. It's trying to bowl as fast as you can. And in the men's game, you get up to 90 miles an hour. In the women's game, the highest ever speed is 80 miles an hour. So if you think about that in your car, that's pretty quick. So to achieve those speeds, it can be quite difficult. Well, congratulations. Thank you. What an achievement.

Let's understand, first of all, what the Pakistan Super League is. And when is it all going to start? When's it all beginning? Well, there's a lot of franchise tournaments around the world. If we take here in England, there's the 100, which launched this summer, men and women's. In Pakistan, it's the Pakistan Super League. It's a little bit like the IPL, the Indian Premier League. It's a major tournament.

I'm really excited. The crowds I've seen on television. I've been out to Pakistan twice. So I'm really looking forward to being there and being in amongst it with the fans and the players. It's a huge milestone what you've achieved. What does it mean to you and to the sport in general to be the first woman to coach men at Fasbole? Yeah, I think for me, it's a massive achievement men at fastball yeah i think for me it's a massive achievement of course but as you said it's kind of a groundbreaking thing i didn't realize sort of the magnitude of it until it uh got announced on on twitter about two weeks ago

so um yeah it's been it's been an amazing experience to see all the love and support i've had um but i've worked a lot with men's professional players before as I said earlier been to Pakistan twice but going out to India for 10 years work with some international players there as well male and female and the thing is you see male coaches going across the women's game and it's finally nice to see women now going across to the male game and why shouldn't they you, there's a lot of knowledge and understanding within the sport. And hopefully we'll see this more and more. Yeah, exactly what I was just thinking.

I can't wait for the day where we're not surprised that it's happening. But well done you for being the first. It's a massive achievement. Let's talk about what you were saying about the physicality of it. So women can't bowl at 90 miles an hour. What's that to do with? It's not to do with ability, is it? No, physiologically, it's very difficult.

If you take tennis, for example, you see the women aren't serving or hitting the ball as hard as a male professional player would. But equally, you know, it's quick enough, 80 miles an hour. There are male bowlers bowling at international level bowling that speed so Shabnam Ishmael is from South Africa she's the fastest ever female bowler and she's a bit of an inspiration for me actually because I work a lot in the biomechanics of how to bowl faster so the technique of how to get quicker and she's got an

amazing bowling action and really good technique so she she's a shining light, I think, for women's cricketers for sure. Excellent. Good. Always nice to name check other women who are doing amazing things. So if you're talking technique, I've got a question for you.

Any tips? I'm making a massive generalisation now. Go with this. Go with me on this. Any tips for how women could throw well? I'm thinking a massive generalisation now. Go with this. Go with me on this. Any tips for how women could throw well? I'm thinking about particularly women who may have doggos that love to play fetch and like to go long distance. Like, what am I doing wrong?

Oh, I see. This is for you. We'll have to have a personal one-to-one after this. Just launch it, I think. That's the thing. I think with young players, especially boys and girls, because I still coach very young players. And the big thing is just to get them to want to bowl fast and the love of bowling fast, because when you see the ball go down at speed and it crash into the stumps, the feeling of elation that you get as a young player, if I could encourage everybody just to go out and bowl as fast as possible.

And, you know, eventually work out where the stumps are. But from a technical point of view, there are different things you can do to get the dog thrower. We can take that offline. Don't worry, I'll just message you later. Are you seeing lots of girls interested coming through, wanting to follow in your footsteps? I'm not sure about my footsteps, maybe now.

But, yeah, I see it a lot you know I work at Hutton Cricket Club in Essex um I work on the National Fast Bowling Academy here in the UK that's boys and girls when we started that academy we didn't see that many girls interested in cricket and now it's professional and professional in you know in this country and you're seeing girls on tv and international games are now finally televised and people are going along to the games i mean when i was growing up i didn't even realize that england women had a cricket team for a long time so that exposure and i suppose social media is good for some things not good for others but for this it's been

excellent for just that exposure and yeah i'm seeing a lot more girls wanting to come through and play and coach, which is great. And we know because it's well publicised that, you know, we know that cricket is mega in India and Pakistan. And it's also very lucrative, which is why these Super Leagues have been set up. So is this a lucrative move for you? Yeah, well... I'm not asking you.

You don't have to tell me how much you earn. Don't worry. I mean, you could if you want to, but... No's it's something to add on to what i'm already doing i mean i was still coaching here um and working as i said at hutton and with my academy and um yeah so i'm still going to be doing that and i think that's really important actually because as you said if if i'm if i am a role model i need to be seen and I want to show young girls coming up through the ranks that they can do it and I don't get listened to sometimes on a Friday night when I'm coaching the really young tots but that's great because it's all just encouraging them

into the game well they will have to listen to you because you are it um congratulations once again and come back and talk to us anytime we'd love to hear about your experience when you come back Catherine Dalton thank you thank you for having me 84844 is the number to text lots of you getting in touch

with your stories of people spotting your talent Jo says Michael Billington once wrote a review of me in a play saying if this actress

doesn't become a star I will eat my critical hat I'm still waiting for stardom to come or Michael is going to have a horribly chewy dinner. Marion says my inspiration was my history teacher at O-Level, a chain-smoking alcoholic who distilled my passion for history. I would not be a published author without her guidance. And Bridget Ashton in Plymouth says I was on a training course to become a programme director for a dental training scheme.

I couldn't really believe that I had actually been appointed to the job of my dreams at the time. As a female, I was in a minority by a very long way. One of the more experienced directors of the course looked me up and down and announced, I'll give you 18 months in this job. Well, Graham, you were almost right. I retired from the job after 18 years.

Bravo, Bridget Ashton. Thank you for those. Keep them coming in. 84844 is the number to text. Now on to my next guest. Oh, you had a flavour of her at the beginning of the programme. The innovative singer, songwriter and cellist Ayanna Witter-Johnson graduated with a first class degree in classical composition at the Trinity Laban Silva Award in 2008. She then went on to complete a master's of music and composition at the Manhattan School of Music. Yes, she did. While she was there, she became the only non-American to win Amateur Night Live at the legendary Apollo Theatre in Harlem. She's collaborated with a prestigious range of artists, from Andrea Bocelli to Anushka Shankar to Nitin Sawni and Akala, and has spent much of 2023 touring as part of Peter Gabriel's band.

She's now joined forces with the London Symphony Orchestra Percussion Ensemble. Their new album, Ocean Floor, explores stories relating to ayana's ancestral heritage culture and identity she's going to tell us all about her it blurs the boundaries between chamber music jazz and soul and i'm delighted to say she joins me live in the studio now alongside neil percy from the lso's print who is the lso's principal percussionist yep fingers up thumbs up very good welcome both of you thank you um i i've been listening to this album non-stop it's beautiful i i introduced it by saying it blurs the boundaries

i said on my instagram i can't describe it but that's a compliment it's a huge compliment really it's a celebration of music across the african. There's elements of classical, gospel, soul, reggae. There are all these flavours that are ultimately music that I adore. So how did this come about? I mean, we heard that you've worked together before in 2011. Yeah, what brought this particular project together? Well, after we'd had this formative experience in 2011, Anita, a few years passed,

and then the piece that we opened with, Unconditionally, I saw Ayana performing with two very dear friends of ours, Tim Garland and Jason Ribello. And I thought, well, this is another interesting piece that Ayana's come up with, and that could well work for our ensemble. And then from there, Ayana said, well, what about just exploring it a little bit further?

So we commissioned some further pieces, Forever, which Ayana will go on to tell you about. And the beautiful thing for us is that this led to the album that you've described, Anita, and the meeting point has been the music. So that's been absolutely fabulous for us. But also the most important thing is that it's led to a diversification in how a percussion ensemble works, because, as I said earlier,

when you're working with an artist with Ayana's unique skill set, it takes the percussion ensemble in a completely different direction. And for that, we'll be forever grateful. No, and likewise, I think it's been a real breath of fresh air because I've been able to throw out them rhythms from West Africa. I used to be in a dance troupe as a three-, four-year-old with my mum, a Ghanaian dance troupe, and there were all these rhythms that I grew up with

that I've been able to bring to the ensemble and expand and explore, as well as my songwriting. It's been a real joyous opportunity to write for not only non-pitch percussion, but pitched as well, for marimba and vibraphone, udu, djembes, piano, like a real range of instruments there. Joyous, but also what did it do for you personally to be able to explore your identity in this way? Well, it gave me the breadth to dig into narratives that I don't ordinarily get to tune into.

And in particular, I was in Jamaica a few years ago and tragically, a young man lost his life at the beach the day I was there. And it got me thinking about what happened in that moment, but what also has happened to many of my ancestors during the transatlantic slave trade where lives were thrown overboard, live slaves were thrown overboard into the sea. And there's a history of black bodies in the ocean, essentially. So the album does explore stories of that nature. And personally, in my own family, I lost a great grandparent to the sea and as well as this young man.

So it kind of got me thinking about the value of black life. Yeah, one of the songs where you explain that story. Yes, that's the opening, the prologue of the Ocean Floor Suite. So in 1781, there was a slave ship called the Zong, which is a British slave ship that set out from Ghana to Jamaica, and 130 slaves were thrown overboard. And they said there wasn't enough water on the ship, but actually there was heavy rainfall. And what happened was they claimed compensation when they came back to England. So there was a lot of, I guess, financial gain in the loss of black life at that moment in time. It's a really poignant piece in the album and it makes you just stop in your tracks. I did stop. I was walking and I had to stop and just listen to you telling me this account.

And what I then found was the day the young man lost his life at the beach, at that time there were also children playing and there was someone being baptised in the sea. And it kind of reminded me that there's always a cycle of life. There is darkness, but at the same time there's joy. And you just sort of have to open your perspective to see all those things simultaneously, which is why the ensemble was perfect to explore that. I was able to sort of really shift moods,

and that's because there's so much to play with, with a percussion ensemble, textures, timbres, and they're phenomenal musicians. I mean, what a powerful experience it must have been to create this. Incredible, Anita, absolutely incredible. I mean, I think Ayana's really taken us on a journey as a group. No doubt about that. In what way?

Well, when she begins to speak and you get the narrative at the beginning of Ocean Floor, you can't, like you, we stop every time we hear Ayana say those words. It's deep and meaningful and it's a tremendous experience for us. How difficult is it, Ayana, because you do so much. You combine playing, singing and even percussion at your feet. Yeah, my foot, my right foot. Yes, tell us.

Tell us what, because you people, it's radio, so we'll have to describe it. I have to describe. So I'm standing, I'm holding my cello to the left of me and then I'm singing. And then in my right foot, I am tapping. Imagine like a kick drum pedal that would be in a drum kit. It's attached to a jam block. And that gives it a donk, donk kind of sound. But the beautiful thing about it is that Ayana has names for all of these instruments.

And the woodblock that she plays with her foot is called Penny. Indeed. Why is it called Penny? I think when it was an actual cowbell sound, I used to drop money into it. I think that's where it came from. So that was Penny. And then my cello is called Reuben.

Oh, Reuben. Reuben's lying there waiting to be played. And what's the instrument you've got in front of you here? So again, Ayana chose this specifically for this piece, Anita. And this is an African clay pot called an udu. And the lovely thing about the udu is that it's a really driving instrument, but you've also got lots of different colours on it because of these holes, basically,

that allow the player to create different tones and timbres. Had you ever played it before this album? I had because Ayana came to spend a lovely day with us down where we live in Surrey and we were spending some time in the studio and I just put a collection of instruments into the studio for Ayana to sort of pick and choose and she's, that's a Udo over there, isn't it?

Oh, yeah, that could work. And then the piece that we're going to be playing presently, that's the one that features the Udo. Oh, I can't wait. We're going to hear it in just a second. You've just come off tour with Peter Gabriel. How was that? It was extraordinary.

We toured Europe and the UK, Canada, America. His new album, IO, is honestly, it's beautiful. It's deep, it's rich. And as soon as he asked me to join the band, I said, Io, is honestly, it's beautiful. It's deep, it's rich. And as soon as he asked me to join the band, I said, yeah, 200%. Well, I love it because I've seen you on stage performing with Nathan Sawney. I've seen you on your own. You've name checked all the people that you've worked with because obviously you're in high demand. And you've just produced this exquisite album.

I was going to say, who's the album for? But it's for everybody. Yeah. And dedicated to your mum yeah the both pieces that bookend the album are both um to her because she's the one who encouraged me to learn an instrument and to pursue my creativity and so we must know mum's name Hilary Hilary all right Hilary um what are you going to perform for us so we're going to play the second part of Ocean Floor Suite it's called Pioneers and it's a tribute to my grandparents generation and their legacy as part of the Windrush generation here

in the UK and how magnificent that you are able to do that that create a piece of art that does just that talks about your legacy or your grandparents legacy what a legacy it is here they are performing live for us now amazing magnificent i'm watching you perform was just brilliant thank you so much uh it is the album is exquisite i highly recommend it's something to sink into this weekend ayanna witter johnson and neil percy on percussion and the album is called ocean floor and it's out now thank you so much and lots of you getting in touch with your own stories of people discovering your talent. Someone says in 1981 here, this is from Therese. She says in 1981, when I arrived at secondary school did she instill in me a passion for biology i left school with all a grades in my o levels and a first at university as a biologist and environmentalist i will always thank her in my heart for believing in me and placing me in this

beautiful life path i hope she's listening oh i hope she's listening to um 84844 lovely to hear your thoughts now a, 100 years ago, nearly 400,000 ordinary women in Wales signed a petition calling on the women of America to join them in demanding a world without war. Today, a purple plaque is being unveiled in Aberystwyth to commemorate Annie Hughes Griffiths, who led the delegation of Welsh women

who brought the petition to the USA and to the president. Well, I'm joined by Dr Jenny Mathers, who is a senior lecturer in international politics at Aberystwyth University and co-editor of the book, The Appeal 1923 to 23, the remarkable story of the Welsh Women's Peace Petition, which is being launched today at the National Library of Wales. Jenny, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. A largely forgotten story for about 100 years.

How did this come to light? Right. So back in 2014, a group of researchers working at the Welsh Centre of International Affairs in Cardiff were looking through their collection for material to put in an exhibition about 100 years of Welsh peacemaking. And they found this leather binding and inside the leather binding was a very elaborately calligraphied statement which declared the women of Wales calling upon the women of America. And it also mentioned the fact that 390,296 women had signed this petition. And so that was really the first time in almost 100 years that anybody had heard about it. Why a petition specifically?

So the idea was to raise the awareness in the United States of the League of Nations as an institution that was believed to have the capacity to bring about a world without war. And the idea was then to use this idea of an appeal by women to other women, something which would draw attention to the League, but also something that would catch the imagination. And there's something really deep that resonates, I think, with people when they hear about women calling for peace. And so, you know, the idea actually came from a man, a Welshman named the Reverend Willem Davies, who was an internationalist and a peace campaigner. But he saw the public relations opportunities of having a women's petition on a large scale. So how easy was it together? I mean, the numbers, 400,000 signatories. I mean, in today's day and age with social media, it's hard to get those kind of signatures. So how did

they do it? Absolutely. So what they did is they relied upon a lot of volunteers. So they had over 400 local organizers who would usually start by calling a public meeting in their town or their community. They would get all of the local dignitaries behind the campaign and they would bring local people together. They would read the memorial of the text of the petition, explain its purpose, and really kind of lay the groundwork then, get people excited about it, get them talking. And then when the organisers would go door to door with the petition in their hands, asking women to sign, most women would have already heard about it and would be ready, you know, with their pens and ink, ready to put their signatures. And then three women went off to the USA to give talks and present their petition. Tell us about them. Tell us about the story. How did they get there? And who were they? Absolutely. So the leader, as you mentioned, of the delegation was a woman named Annie Hughes

Griffiths. She was very well connected in Welsh society. She was, by all accounts, quite a charismatic figure. She had a great physical presence, a lot of personality. She was a very confident speaker. She was bilingual. And it, a lot of personality. She was a very confident speaker. She was bilingual, and it was important that the leader of a delegation would be able to speak in Welsh as well as English. And so she was also the head of the Welsh League of Nations Union in Wales, which was a civil society organisation designed to support the League. And she was joined by a woman named Eluned Preece, who was a younger woman. She was a recent university graduate. She'd done a lot of work with war refugees, particularly in Romania.

And so she was a very, you know, lively, outgoing, very intelligent woman, very intense. And also the third woman was Mary Ellis. And Mary Ellis actually went ahead of the other two because she went to organize all of the events that the petition was going to be presented at. And so she went several months earlier and she met in the U.S., she met with many of the leaders of the American women's movement, including Eleanor Roosevelt. And they strategized together about what would be the best way of presenting the message and the petition to the women of America. How could they get it in front of the president? You know, how could they meet other women across the whole country?

And so, you know, it was a huge effort, I think, and a really inspiring story of women networking across national boundaries. Well, just brilliant organisation, really. Fantastic. How was it received when they got to the States? And how were they received? For the most part, it was received extremely well. There was a lot of publicity. So the groundwork had been laid successfully. So everywhere they went, they were met with photographers, journalists. When the boat docked in New York, the press was all over them. And everywhere they

went, because after they sort of presented the petition in New York and Washington, Annie Hughes Griffiths then took a train journey across America to California. And everywhere she stopped, she met with women's groups and she gave interviews and gave speeches and so on. So there was a lot of publicity, a lot of interest. Although interestingly, it was not entirely uncontroversial because during the course of her visit, she was sent an anonymous threatening letter telling her to get out of the States and that she wasn't wanted there. Because, of course, at that time, and indeed now, there was a strong sense in America of American isolationism and not wanting to become entangled in future wars, not wanting to get

involved in messy international affairs. And so many people in the US perceived joining the League of Nations to be just that kind of messy entanglement. And they didn't want these foreign women traipsing around, getting their women excited about the possibility of, you know, joining the League of Nations. But it didn't put them off. And she even managed to get to the president, didn't she? What do we know about his reaction? This is Coolidge. That's right. This was Calvin Coolidge.

So, you know, it's a demonstration of the power of the American women's networks that she was able, that they were able to bring the petition to the very door of the White House and be received by Calvin Coolidge. By all accounts, and we have a diary that Annie kept of her trip, by all accounts, by her account, he was a very pleasant man, very welcoming, very interested in the petition, although, of course, very noncommittal because his administration wasn't going to be in support of the League. Nevertheless, you know, interested, willing, they took photographs and he promised that he would ensure that the petition was kept in the Smithsonian in perpetuity, so that after it had

been symbolically presented to America, it would be kept in the United States. But it's not there anymore? It's not there anymore. Tell us about the chest and the signatures. They're back in Wales. Yes, they're back in Wales. So there's a special wooden chest that was built in order to convey the petition sheets. And you know this sat in the Smithsonian Institution storage for nearly 100 years. And it was only when the appeal text itself was found in 2014 and put on exhibition that a group of women who saw the exhibition in the National Library said let's find out more about this.

And so they formed an organization called Hedwg Nain Mamghi which means our grandmother's peace and they made common cause with other women of Welsh ancestry in the United States and through their research they were able to discover that it was still in the Smithsonian and so a whole series of negotiations took place over a number of years and in the end the Smithsonian very kindly agreed to what we call rematriate the petition on its chest back to Wales and the National Library of Wales here in Aberystwyth very kindly has agreed to host the petition and so it's now in the National Library, it's on exhibition and moreover the library is in the process of scanning all the petition sheets and putting them online on the

library's website so you can go on to the National Library website and you can have a look at seven of the 33 boxes have been scanned. So including the Aberystwyth area, parts of Cardiff. So you can have a look and see either whether one of your ancestors signed or maybe somebody who lived in your house or on your street or in a town or village that you have lived in or know about. And eventually the plan is to crowdsource the digitization and proper, you know, putting this into a database, which is searchable. And so that will make it far more sort of useful for historians, as well as for ordinary people who just want to find out who on earth signed this petition. Do I have any connection to them? Well, a really important bit of history we're

learning about. Another one of these stories that we often do on Woman's Hour, where you think, how on earth did we let this disappear? Thank goodness it was a group of women that turned up to discover it and they hang on a minute we need to learn more about this and I love the phrase rematriate as well um obviously this is a story about history but we can't ignore that we're living in a time of war right in front of our eyes right now in Gaza and in Ukraine. What can it tell us about the role of women in peace today, do you think? I think it tells us that there is still that resonance when women stand up for peace. And I think we're already seeing it in the Middle East.

I've seen that there's a group of Palestinian and Israeli women coming together in the Middle East trying to promote the cause of peace, trying to stop the violence there. I mean, I do some work on Russia's women in relation to the war in Ukraine. And it's very, very interesting because although they're not coming out in opposition to the war itself, they are coming out in criticism of Putin's regime and the way that he's conducting the war. And so they're presenting themselves as sort of patriotic mothers. But their criticism, I think, therefore, is all the more powerful, because they're criticizing him from the inside. I think so, you know, even though most feminists would not agree that women are naturally peaceful or more peaceful than men, I think, nevertheless the idea of women organising for peace is still a very powerful one. And it's one that many peace activists make use of. Dr. Jenny Mathers, thank you for joining us to share with

us that story. And people can go to see the signatures? Absolutely. They can go online and look at the ones that have been scanned right now. If you're in the Aberystwyth area or going to be in Aberystwyth at any time in the future, you can come to the National Library and see the chest, see the petitions. You can see Annie Hughes Griffith's diary and letters of congratulation from, you know, the prime minister and all kinds of people. So, yes, there's a whole exhibition about it. It's really worth seeing. Thank you so much. 84844, lots of you getting in touch about the variety of things we've talked about on the programme. A couple of messages on the rental

market that we discussed at the top of the hour. Real social housing is the solution to the housing crisis. I'm a widow, single parent, and I struggle to pay my social housing rent in the private sector. I couldn't manage. It's impossible for me. Another one here. There's so much to say. I don't even know where to begin. This country has been experiencing a housing couldn't manage. It's impossible for me. Another one here. There's so much to say. I don't even know where to begin. This country has been experiencing a housing crisis for years. It's not hard to find women with children who have to have their, who sleep in their car, but it's shameful. So it's hidden.

And another one. I'm 55, a single mother with two children. I have to pay rent for the past 15 years, which I've struggled with having no support from their dad. While my children are now no longer dependents, I've struggled with, having no support from their dad while my children are now no longer dependents. I've been given a section 21 to find myself in an absolutely

impossible situation and I can't possibly afford the area I live in. So the only option is to relocate, find another job, leave my family. My son also currently lives with me and will potentially be made homeless. This is devastating for all of us.

It's really difficult, but we appreciate you getting in touch with us to share your stories and please continue to do so. Even after the programme, you can go to our website and email us because you never know, we may then discuss this further and possibly have one of you come and talk to us about your experience on the programme. Now, in 2017, Lewis FC became the first English club to split its budget and resources equally between the men's and women's teams. It's just been announced the club's owners, made up entirely of its fans, voted in favour of moving forward with potential new investment in the women's team. It would come from Mercury 13, a consortium bidding to acquire women's football clubs in Europe and Latin America. It's a big moment for how women's football could change and grow as its popularity continues to

rise. Well, Lewis FC, based in East Sussex in the south of England, played in the FA Women's Championship, which is one tier below the Women's Super League, and they reached the FA Women's Cup quarterfinals last season. CEO of the club, the celebrated changemaker on the Women's Hour Power List this year,

and I would say friend of the programme, Maggie Murphy, joins me now to tell us more. Welcome, Maggie. Most won't have heard of this before. Tell us about who Mercury 13 are, what they're proposing. Thanks for having me on this morning as well. Yeah, well, we've just finalised, you know, a couple of months of very detailed, in-depth consultation with our fan owners. Lots of in-person and online forums, a couple of working groups. We answered more than 300, almost 400 questions from our owners who had lots and lots of questions.

More than 100 pages of documentation. We tried to be as open and transparent around the potential investment. And the investment will be coming from Mercury 13, a group that has explicitly said that they want to invest in the growth of women's sport, women's football in particular, because they see this as a growth area and because it's been underserved for so long. In the discussions with them, it was clear that they were unique because they actually liked the concept of a fan-owned club. Both investors would want total control and here

they were wanting to come on board understanding how important our owners are to the club. And yet yes it might be counterintuitive that 68% of our owners have actually voted to give up a little bit of their equity to a private investment that wants to come in to support the growth of the club. But that's where we are. And that mandate has now been given for us to continue the negotiations. And I have to say, we're not across the line. There's due diligence to be had on both sides. But that just allows us to continue the discussions. Well, and like you say, the majority have welcomed it. Is this a move that you welcome, more investment? And why? Why do you think people think it's a good idea? Yeah, I think this is probably, I think it has wider implications for the sector. Obviously,

it shows that there's interest in women's football and the growth and that there are opportunities here. But I actually think it's a landmark development to have investors want to invest in the women's side of a club that's rewriting the rules in in many ways and and I'm I'm absolutely delighted and proud that Lewis FC is once again kind of at the forefront of that development and that and that change and I think that the other element of that is that it's exciting that there's an investment into a potential investment into a club that's not actually backed by a rich men's club because I think that shows that there is a future world where women's football teams can be can thrive without being dependent on men's club backing

and that means that actually the future of women's football could look a little bit different to the current state of men's football, which obviously is very good when it comes to the commercial side, but actually there's plenty of things that a lot of people don't like about men's football. And I'm just hoping that this shows that it is possible to carve a path that can be unique and different and special and capture all the essence of women's football's growth over the decades. It is special.

But it feels like a game changing moment. It really feels quite exciting and thrilling, particularly that they've come to Lewis FC. What is it saying to clubs about the value of women's football? I think purely from a value point of view, it shows that women's football is a great place to invest. I think that's easy. But, you know, there's many, many women's football teams out there that you can invest into. And I guess for me, I've got a slight smile on my face because I feel like there's a proof that you can invest in a club that is explicitly about values and explicitly about principles. We're a big club with a big personality. We challenge status quo. We demand more and better from football, from the FA.

We're wanting football to look and feel different. And the fact that you might have investors wanting to back that shows that actually there's wider fervour, there's wider demand for football to do better and look differently and have those values and principles. So it's exciting. And obviously, Maggie, we know because you're brilliant and you're on our power list you're a very smart woman um is there a bit of you that is uh concerned or the fans that can send because you are such a value-led team your principles are right there front and center of everything you do that you've got big money coming in and the impact that might have. Yeah, I think everyone's had concerns over the length of this negotiation.

There's no point pretending that everything is, that we've just thrown ourselves into it because I think that would be naive. You know, over the last few months we've had to deal with questions coming from our owners. You know, a lot of it is around change. Some of it is fear that the men's team will get left behind, which is an interesting concept really when you you think about the the world of sport today and there is a bit of fear that around whether these are the right people the right backers what their intentions are and whether you can square the idea of profit and people and you know

that's the challenge that lays ahead of us can we do it and like I say at the moment this is just the next part of the negotiation both sides are still going to be figuring out if it is possible. I hope it is possible. But at the same time, I just feel like at the moment, it's quite an exciting development. And interesting that the consortium, Mercury 13, a lot of women in it. Yeah. And you know what, I think there could be an interesting moment in time where finally a few more women have a disposable income and want to put it where they want to put it. Because we've known that there have been wealthy people, wealthy men that have invested into things that they like and things that they believe in for a very, very long time. And perhaps now we're starting to see a little bit of a shift where there are more women that have a little bit more income that also want to back the things that they believe in and feel strongly about um and i think you are obviously a big part of them wanting to come to lewis as well uh did i read a quote here that said lewis was a

clear choice since they represent many core principles of how we believe a women's club should be managed with you at the helm well don't don't don't make me blush um no honestly it's an it's an absolute whole club yeah um piece of work this goes all the way down to our fans and our owners who have worked so hard with so many volunteers on a match day helping out the community is strong like it's it's far from me it's the whole club we will be watching it closely and i'm sure we'll be talking to again maggie thank you so much for joining me this morning. That's Maggie Murphy, the CEO of Lewis FC. And a final word from some of you. One here, when I was eight years old,

I was at a friend's house and picked a tune on the piano. I'd never seen one before. My friend's mother was a famous cellist. She offered to teach me for nothing. She did it for the next eight years. I've played the cello all my life as an amateur in orchestras and chamber music. She gave me a real chance.

And that's from Diana Naylor. Thank you. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The return of Doctor Who redacted. I think the blue box is our guardian angel. There's someone inside it, you know, keeping us all safe. But where are they? The Doctor is missing. I repeat, the Doctor is missing.

So it's down to three friends to save the world. But you don't need to hold my hand so tight. I'm not holding your hand. But can they save the Doctor? Doctor, no! Get away, it's a trap! Subscribe to Doctor Who Redacted on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. on BBC Sounds. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.