Woman's Hour - Cervical cancer testing, Imogen Poots, Syria and women, Janet Jackson play

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

New research which has just been published in the British Medical Journal, suggests that testing menstrual blood for signs of cervical cancer could be an accurate way of screening for the disease. The BBC's Health Correspondent, Sophie Hutchinson, and Fiona Osgun, Head of Health information at Cancer Research UK join Anita Rani to talk about this new area of research and discuss the options currently open to women. English actor Imogen Poots is back on our screens taking on a challenging role in Kristen Stewart’s first feature film, The Chronology of Water. It’s a creative adaptation of an acclaimed memoir by American writer Lidia Yuknavitch which centres on her coming to terms with being abused as a child, battling pain and loss, and her ongoing healing journey. Imogen Poots joins Anita in the studio.The Kurdish-led self-administration in the north east of Syria is a territory where for years women have sat at the centre of political life, security and decision-making. But many are worried that the system is now under pressure following a new agreement between Kurdish authorities and the Syrian government, which will integrate the region into the Syrian state being rebuilt after the toppling of Bashar al-Assad in 2024. Anita is joined by Lina Shaikhouni, journalist at the BBC World Service and Dilar Dirik, Kurdish writer and author of The Kurdish Women’s Movement: History, Theory, Practice.Paula Varjack talks to Anita about her show Nine Sixteenths. It examines the fallout from the infamous Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake ‘wardrobe malfunction’ incident at the 2004 Superbowl and the backlash that almost ruined Jackson’s career. The play questions what this says about the demographics of who controls the media, the scrutinising of black women in the public eye and asks if anything has changed?Presenter: Anita Rani Producer : Corinna Jones

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. We're going to take you back in time today to the 2004 Super Bowl and the infamous Janet Jackson, Justin Timberlake, wardrobe malfunction. Theatre maker and performer Paula Varjak's new show, 916th, looks at the backlash that almost ruined Jackson's career. It's also an homage to an icon. Actor Imogen Putes is starring in the film The Chronology of Water based on the memoir written by Lydia Yuknovich. It's Kristen Stewart's directorial debut and it's a very powerful and moving performance by Imogen. She'll be here

to tell us all about it. There's a Kurdish-led self-administration in northeastern Syria. It's been autonomous since 2012 and it's always had a very strong women's movement since the fall of the Assad regime, the new government wants to assimilate the community, but what will that mean for Kurdish women? Smear tests. How many of you just shuddered at the thought? While new research is looking into how period blood tests could be a less invasive method of testing for cervical cancer. And you may have seen this in the papers today. Former newsreader Jan Leaming took a friend out for a birthday lunch that was interrupted somewhat by a child. She posted on X, lovely ambience, slightly spoiled by

screaming child at lunch. When I paid and remonstrated, was treated as though I were the one at fault. Can you relate to Jan? Have you been in a public place, a train, a plane, a restaurant, where the crying children have bothered you? What did you do? What was the reaction? Or are you the parent who's been on the receiving end? Your thoughts on this and your stories, always welcome. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. If you wish to email us, then go to our website and our WhatsApp number for a WhatsApp or a voice note is 0700-100-444. Stories about children interrupting whatever your situation might be, but also anything else you hear on the program

that you want to share your thoughts on. Always welcome. But first, new research, which has just been published in the British Medical Journal, suggests that testing menstrual blood for signs of cervical cancer could be an accurate way of screening for the disease. It can also be done by women at home rather than the current more invasive cervical screening, which is carried out by a doctor or nurse. Well, to tell me more and to find out what's currently available, I'm joined by the BBC's health correspondent Sophie Hutchinson and Fiona Oskine,

head of health information at Cancer Research UK. Sophie and Fiona, welcome to both of you. I'll come to you first, Sophie. So tell me more. What's this new research showing? Well, scientists developed what they describe as a minipad, and it's a piece of sterile cotton which sticks onto a sanitary pad.

And once that piece of cotton has collected about two thirds of menstrual blood, the women put it into a container into a solution called cell preservation solution and then put it in the post, sending it off to a lab where it was then tested for HPV, the human papillomavirus,

which causes almost all of the cervical cancer. that we know about. And so that was their idea of quite a neat way of testing women for what can result in a very serious condition. Tell us more about this research. Who's behind it and how many women are involved? The research was done in Wuhan, in China. And the women who took part were age 20 to 54.

There were more than 3,000 of them. And there have been other research programmes, but on a much smaller scale, like programs in hospitals and things like that that showed there might be some positive results. But they wanted to broaden it out to a kind of community project, if you like. And at the same time as these women sending off results in this way from their menstrual blood, they were also tested in conventional ways. And so those two different types of tests were compared with each other. And they just showed amazingly positive results.

I mean, the accuracy was similar to that of, you know, your typical test that you get when you go to your GP. And in fact, the negative results, so that's women with no signs of the virus, were 99.9% accurate. So identical to the standard tests in a clinic. I'm going to bring you in on this, Fiona. What are your thoughts on these menstrual blood tests? Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of premise for a way around cervical screening and an alternative to the kind of more traditional in-clinic, going to a GP, getting a test done there.

And we know that women face a lot of barriers to go into cervical screening, and we see that in the kind of rates of uptake across the UK. And that can be things like emotional or cultural barriers or just practical barriers, like not having the time or being able to kind of get the transport to get to a GP surgery and take up that invitation. So it is really important that we explore through research and through improvements to the programme,

how we can make cervical screening more accessible for people and make it an easier kind of offer to take up. We're really lucky that in the UK we are actually moving to add self-sampling to the screening program that exists, which kind of hits on some of the things that Sophie's described for this study, but it lets people do an at-home test.

So for people who in clinic testing isn't appropriate or they're facing barriers to that, this will kind of be another alternative that they'll be able to take, up as well. Sophie, on that, the NHS has started these at-home vaginal swab tests to some women who have missed their screening appointments. Do we know if these are going to be more widely available? Well, the NHS says they will be sent out later in the year to many more women, but initially they will be sent out to women who have, say, missed appointments or find it really hard to attend

their appointments. So those are some of the women that you were just talking about. I mean, younger women, women with a disability, women from ethnic minorities, might all find it really hard for various different reasons to attend appointments. And they're the ones who are likely to get those home test kits. But we don't have a date for it yet. And no more information. Let's pick apart these numbers a bit more, Fiona. Because in the UK, cervical screening is offered to all women

and anyone with a cervix every five years between the age of 25 and 64. But five million women are not up to date. with their smears, what are some of the reasons for them not going? Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think that some of the big barriers that we see are either having had a painful experience in the past or being worried about experiencing pain when you go for your cervical screening, which is a really understandable kind of off-putting reason for people not to want to go. But we would always advise people to talk to the nurse or doctor that's doing your screening,

explain if you've had an experience in the past that means that you might be a bit more worried about anything will have any specific concerns, there are things as well that you can book a double appointment to give yourself more time and your GP practice will be able to kind of support you to do that. There are other barriers as well, so some of the more practical ones around kind of getting time off work, childcare, trying to get to the GP or other clinic setting where you're having your screening done and things like both the transport and the cost of that being barriers for people. And for some people as well, there are kind of cultural barriers. So for certain ethnic minorities in particular, there can be kind of stigmas around testing for HPV and kind of having tests that

involve kind of an intimate area of the body can be a really kind of big barrier for people taking part. So it's quite a wide spectrum. But kind of as we've said, offering these alternatives can help definitely with some of the practical barriers and potentially with some of these more emotional or cultural barriers as well. Yeah. And many women just find the screening, I mean, painful, invasive, archaic. So it's a question that gets asked a lot on women's, why is it taken so long for innovation to be thought about in this area? I'm going to put that to both of you, Fiona. Yeah, I think I would say that we have seen a lot of innovation in this space. So I think, you know, in the last few years, we've seen a swap from the test that we use. So for people

experiencing cervical screening, it will have sort of seemed exactly the same. But the test that we used to look at the cells and now we look for HPV first, which is a much more accurate testing method and it means that we've been able to widen the intervals between cervical screens as well so it's now every five years for all women regardless of age and so we are kind of seeing innovations there and with things like the HPV vaccine which obviously kind of primary aim is to prevent HPV infection and so help reduce the number of people with cervical cancer but you're right it's really important that you know screening programs aren't static like all of medicine it's not something that is a kind of one and done. We need to constantly be innovating, researching,

understanding how we can improve things, how we can make things more accessible and better for the people that are taking part. So tests and research like this is really important to kind of take into consideration as a screening program stays relevant and evolves. I wonder, Sophie, if in the future, when we look back, we'll think people will say, oh, how interesting that they weren't testing menstrual blood for something like cervical cancer. I mean, it's quite possible, isn't it? And like was being said, you know, there are these innovations at the moment. There's an innovation that a postgraduate student in London put together called a PAP Cup, which again is testing menstrual blood.

So there is a great push on. I mean, England has a plan to eliminate cervical cancer by 2040. So there is a real desire to change things for women and try and protect more women. But obviously, it's still going to take quite a bit more work. Yeah. In the meantime, Fiona, how important? is it that women come and get themselves tested? So of course screening saves lives so we'd really encourage people when you get that invite.

It can come through the post or it can come on the NHS app. Do read it. Make sure you've got all your information and don't be put off if you want to take part in screening. We also most mention, and we just had a messaging from Julie who says menstrual blood is great for women who are still menstruating. At 75 I haven't seen any of that for over 20 years. So it's about a few test, not for everybody. what happens for women in menopause? I mean, that's absolutely right. You know, that there are some women who, in fact, never menstruate.

So, you know, there are concerns for those women, and this might not be the right pathway for them. Well, it certainly wouldn't be. So I think options for women is what I've been told a lot. You know, there isn't a one-size-fits-all for women in terms of screening for cervical cancer, and women need to be able to choose the best way for them. Fiona Oskine and Sophie Hutchinson, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning.

844 is the text number. So I started the program by telling you about Jan Leaming, putting on X how a crying child disrupted her meal out at a restaurant for lunch. And you've been getting in touch saying, and Ali says, children crying or otherwise are part of life. Everyone was a child once, get used to it. And another one saying, I was in an aeroplane.

It was an eight-hour flight and a baby was screaming for nearly six hours. The baby turned out to be a three-year-old toddler who, was out of control. His parents didn't do a thing, so I got up and told the child off. A lot of people on the plane agreed with me, but the parents were fuming. 844, but did the crying stop? Did it work? Get in touch with your thoughts. Now, my next guest, English actress Imogen Poots is back on our screens, taking on a challenging role in Kristen Stewart's first feature film. Imogen has had an incredible career so far from horror classic 28 weeks later to the exhilarating need for speed. More recently, you might remember seeing her in the sci-fi romantic drama,

all of you opposite Brett Goldstein. She's also previously picked up a British independent film award for her role in The Look of Love and trodden the boards marking her West End debut in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Well, her latest film, The Chronology of Water, is based on the memoir of American writer Lydia Yuknovich. Now, just to warn you, this conversation will deal with difficult themes that some of you may find particularly upsetting. Imogen plays the lead role in the film and her character experiences childhood, sexual abuse and addiction. But the film is about the complex journey of healing and rebuilding yourself after trauma. And I'm delighted to say Imogen's in the studio. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Thank you for having me. It's extraordinary. You are extraordinary in it.

I want to start by saying that. A really bold and creative choice as a debut film for Kristen's Stuart. Did you take much convincing? Was it a no-brainer? No, it's a no-brainer. I mean, what Kristen's been up to for years to all of us, I think, is really, really singular and she's such a dynamic person. And so whatever she was going to

get her hands on, an attempt to make, I think a lot of people wanted to be a part of that. It, as I started by saying, it deals with some really harrowing subject matters. It's based on the abuse memoir. It includes child

sexual abuse, the trauma and the complexity that that brings. Were there any apprehensions going into this? Were you nervous about anything? I'm always nervous going into anything I do, whether it's something that has very harrowing themes or whether it's a romantic drama. Like I think you enter every project, knowing that the stakes are going to be high. That's the nature of filmmaking. Are you going to do the story justice on that day, on that location,

when you got 20 minutes before lunch to try and sort of, you know, get as truthful as you can about this woman's life experience. So I think that is always present. And you don't want to let down the subject. I didn't want to let Kristen down. But ultimately, like, that's what we're there to do. That's the job. That's the sort of the thrill ride is how close can we get

with the limitations that are always at play with independent film. And so I think stepping into the projects, we all knew it wasn't going to be easy. but that was sort of the draw. Yeah, and you've played roles based on real people throughout your career. And I wonder if this type of role is trickier, thinking about how to interpret people's lives on film and whether it alters them in some way

or it changes people's memories of them, perhaps. Yeah, well, there's something I think that's really important, like anything artistic. You know, we're making a movie, which isn't the same as a documentary. So it's this person's life story. and that's our prototype in a way. That's our sort of vessel for a story. But as an audience, I think,

you want to watch someone's life unfold and the choices they make and the failures they experience and the successes and say, I see myself in that. I recognise a truth in that moment. So using this as an example, despite Lydia's life story

and the card she was dealt early on in her life and the subject matter, there's still the deep nature of being inconsistent, sabotaging good things. And then persevering and transcending is an extraordinary thing to witness and very uplifting. Yes. And it's, I mean, it was an incredible watch. You're amazing in it. And we need to talk about the experimental style of the filmmaking as well. And it just felt like a piece of art watching it.

And I just actually, I had to take a deep breath thinking, okay, I'm about to watch something that is going to make me feel. Yes. Which is no bad thing. No, I think we need it. You know, I walked past the cinema the other day and I saw Jason Statham on the poster with his AK-47 and I was like, well, that's also out there. And there's a time and place for Statham.

Fantastic. But you know what? Guns were getting very inured to guns. It's quite cool to see childbirth. It's quite violent and it's quite overwhelming. But it's also very, very important to have that in conversation with culture, with women that these things deserve to have a place on the cinema screen, you know. And what's happened to this woman is appalling, you know,

the worst form of abuse, child abuse at the hands of her father. And what was interesting is we then watch the impact of that and how this young woman has to manage life. Exactly. And I remember watching the parts where she, you know, addiction becomes part of her life, which is like kind of unexameless, you know. And you want, and you think. especially working women's there where we interview people for all sorts of reasons.

People may judge that woman if they've just met her at that point in life. Yes, and that's the incredible, unknowable thing, right, about all of us is that there is this, if you're not, it's that young idea that if you're not thinking you're judging, if you're not, Carl Young said that, if you're not sort of moving through the world and considering what someone's life has been, we have no idea where someone's come from and what they've managed to build despite past events. So I think it's, as you say, though, it's the most interesting part is what happens after the fact.

The child abuse that is at the centre of our story is very much the catalyst as to Lydia's memoir. But ultimately, how does someone respond in the face of that and live a life, you know, this puny life that is made sort of epic in the way that it's explored? What was the hardest bit for you? I think the hardest stuff is always to do with the notion that you have lost something really good. You had something good delivered to you in the form of a person or an opportunity.

And every time that Lydia, she just dropped it because it's so easy to just let it drop and let it slip from your grasp, something absolutely beautiful that you don't think you deserve. And I think that feeling is a really hard feeling to exist in. That level of self-loathing is really, really, I found that really tough. You do a lot of swimming in the film. Yeah. Because Lydia's character turns to swimming to help her cope. Yeah.

How much training did you have to do? I did so much training. Are you a swimmer before? I wasn't. I was sort of a splasher, sort of splashed around. But with this one, I really committed and I had these amazing swim coaches who were like child champions

and they'd just from Brazil and Latvia and America and they were teaching this sort of imbecile with my floating devices, how to do flip turns. But it's amazing because as an adult, when you learn how to do something like that, you're just like, well, I feel like an absolute legend. I think that's one of the coolest things about being an actor. You're like, oh, well, I just had to train in this thing

and then became really proficient at it. So now you're an Olympian swimmer. I'm an Olympian swimmer, guys. It was really cool. I got a few hernias from it as well because, you know, why not? Got to have some battles. That sounds painful. It was actually.

And Kristen's got all these pictures of me on set, sort of holding my guts in, and just in case it sort of flopped out. Do we need to explain that a little bit more? A hernia is where your sort of intestines or like tissue, fat tissue, pushes out through a hole in your abdominal lining, for example. But it sounds like something else, but it's not. Don't worry about that. How has swimming done that to you?

Just shows you really... I went too hard. Always do. Well, it was great because the performance is incredible. The style of the film. The sound design, the sort of the way the memories are processed, it is almost like a sensory overload, but thrilling. Is it exciting and important to work on projects like this for you?

It is. I think it's very, very gratifying. It challenges your own boring, recycled thoughts that you're constantly marinating in. Like, I think whatever it is to kind of keep progressing as a person, as an actor, as an artist, like doing projects like this are the coolest. And, you know, something recently last year, there was a script and it was to play sort of this girl who was cooing over the male lead. And you just think, oh, is that it? that what we've got? Because there's got to be something else. And I think that projects like this, they also offer up an opportunity. And I think about this with Kristen all the time where it's

like, do you get to transcend your age and your gender with art? Like you get to, I think about David Bowie in that way too, where it's like, if you start to make things that you really care about and are really authentic, not to say that you shouldn't spend a lot of time also being really silly, because I think that's very, very important. But like, do you, what happens? Do you kind of crystallise in a different way, like, with your life creatively here. And I think about that. Like Cheneid O'Connor. Like Cheneyneed O'Connor.

I mean, what an amazing human but soul, you know. We've got to talk about the relationship between you and Kristen, because I saw an interview, and I'm paraphrasing the two of you together, and she said it was almost like when she met you, where have you been? Yeah. Like your friendship is like you've known each other, or that you've been waiting for each other. Yeah.

Can you enlighten us? It was just so amazing because she'd seen everything I've ever done, which is really meaningful. I've done a lot of small films, and she'd seen every single one. And I have obviously adored her work forever. The two of us meeting was very special. It felt very kidlike. It felt very trusting.

It felt challenging. We believe in each other, and we believe each other. Sort of when someone says something, it's truthful. And yeah, it felt like one of us was like, Paul McCartney showing John Lennon and what he could do on the guitar. Like it was something like, let me, I see what you got. I want some of that. Like there was just this kind of mutual giddiness.

And she was an amazing director. And respect. I'm quite excited. I got spyingly when you were talking about. His bump is. Yeah. Nice. And I need to name check a few of the other extraordinary women that are involved in this

because Thora Birch plays your sister. Yes. She's extraordinary. But I did think that so you started very young. Yes. How old were you when you were in? I was about 15, 16, yeah. And you went straight into acting.

Yeah. Even though you got into study arts. I was going to study art. Yeah, maybe I would have done that if all of us had gone up the wazoo. But still good. Thora was a child actor, as was Kristen. I wonder whether there was some sort of understanding between. There has to be.

There has to be. There's something in that where it's like, our lives have not been conventional. Our teenage years, we're not conventional. You have to, you know, become an adult quite quickly and in other ways you don't. And I think all of that connected us. And we're all quite resilient, I think.

We're all quite strong and fragile in similar ways. And then you throw someone like Kim Gordon in the mix as well. Exactly. Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth. That's right. Extraordinary. Yeah. Can we explain that scene?

Shall we? I don't want to give too many spoilers away. With Kim. Yeah. Yeah, it's a BDSM scene. And it sort of speaks to how a female figure in your life can morph into different symbols. Obviously, there's a maternal quality there. And where is the line that's blurred between that and sort of a sexual relationship?

It's also commenting on sort of pleasure and pain And I think all of those elements again It's a scene which I think just offers up something You know this is a sort of symptom of a problem But is it bad? Do we judge her for partaking in this? Or do we kind of, we're not willing to be honest about it But do we kind of want that for ourselves?

Like I think it really tests that line a scene like that. Can you take us on to set with you, Imogen? What was it like when you've got you? Thorough Birch there's Kim Gordon you've got Kristen behind the camera I've seen photos of her with a headset on talking to you. She looks like cool isn't she? You all look very cool. We all want to be

in there like what I'm stressed out I look sort of like Krusty the clown like so frazzled and so hardly together at all and then Kristen just seems to look like yeah just a complete rock star No no you've both got it going on believe but what's it like as for you working in an environment

with that woman behind it? It was amazing our art director There was a, everyone in a head of department role was female, apart from Corey Seawater's, our DOP, but he was sort of an honorary woman. He's an amazing man and artist. So I think that vibe on set, it was really chaotic. It was really passionate. It was hopelessly and delusionally optimistic, just that kind of sense that we believed so hard in what we're making.

And things went wrong all the time as they do with independent films. So I was accidentally a makeup artist put some eyed drops in my eyes, which dilated the pupil. So I couldn't see anything, right? Everything's just like white space and white light all around me. And so we're sat there and wearing this prosthetic pregnant belly with shades on, like I'm Stevie Wonder. And we're sat there and Christian's just kind of looking at me like, I've lost you, you've gone. Like I'm just sat there until my eyes can calm down. And Thor is like holding the team together because the actress can't see.

I mean, it's just like you lose two. hours when things like that happen and you still have to make a movie. And it was a great movie that you've made. It is a great movie. Also, there are men in it. Jim Belushi's in it. Yeah, Jim Belushi's but the men come and go. Yes. So something quite satisfying about that. Well, they were all really lovely boys. I mean, Earl Cave is such a great actor and musician in his own right and person, Tom Sturage, I've known for years. So that's always easier having to do intimate stuff with someone even though in a long time. But the boys were really, really incredible.

And I think Lydia, you know, there's that, I mean, Philip, who Earl Cave plays. He was such a beautiful person. But his passivity just made Lydia livid. She was, I think there's a line in the film, she says, is that all, you know, is that all there is. And she wants more, she needs someone who's like rubber. She can't just sort of enter into this life that's going to be sort of sedated. and where she's going to get away with that behaviour. That comes later when she meets Andy.

Who sort of is her match in many ways. And he's the one who says and speaks to her about sort of what her story has left in it to tell. I think that's really beautiful. It's beautiful. And also these things are about timing, aren't they? Natalie Portman has hit out at the Oscars for snubbing female directors after Chloe Zhao is the only woman to receive a nomination. As you know, in the best director category,

Chloe sat in that chair, very chair. Yeah, it was very cool. Why do you think there are so few female directors not getting nominated? I mean, if you think about the fact that women weren't even let into art school until like 1860, that's relatively late. Like, we're sort of just getting started in a lot of ways. And so alongside that, you've also got the sense that it's still not taken seriously in the same way. It's been so the system itself, you know, is a patriarchal system.

you have to really start to unpick all of that, even speaking of a sense that we didn't know we could test for cervical cancer with period blood. It's like, oh, they just found that out, did they? Like, it's still so far behind. But I do feel really hopeful that there's great female artists, but it's slower and it's deeply frustrating, and it's not right. But I do think that there's a lot to be said for people

who are working very hard to get things made. Kristen's film should not have been as hard to get made as it were. And that was with a name like Kristen. 2018 is when she first wanted to make, started making it. That's right. What's it like doing all the press and road carpets with your director who also happens to be an A-list Hollywood actor? Well, this is something I've spoken about a bit, which is that, you know, it's not just a woman who has written a story and decided to make it into a film. It's a movie star who has eyeballs on her for a variety of reasons who's gone to make this piece of material.

I'm so proud of her. She's the coolest person I know. She's just, she's incredibly kind as well. She's known, rightly so, to be quite like punk rock is the only way to describe it. But her manners as all true punks, you know, possess are absolutely. Absolutely beautiful. So I'm just so proud of her. And we feel like Renan Stimpy when we're together, me being Stimpy, obviously.

And we just sort of have been traveling around with this movie, like we're on tour or something. It's just great. And watching her on the red carpet is amazing because she's just, she's just got it, man. Well, you name checked Lennon and McCartney. So is this going to be now the power couple in film that we never knew we needed? Yeah, that we can't live without. The dream and one day they'll write a book about our bromance.

Yeah, that'd be great. Well, it is extraordinary. It's an incredible directorial debut, but she couldn't have made it without you. So, Imogen, thank you so much for coming in to talk to me about. Thank me about the chronology of water. It's released in UK cinemas on the 6th of February. That's tomorrow. And if you have been affected by any of the issues that we've been discussing,

you can find links to support on the BBC Action Line website. Image and Putes, thank you. Thank you. Now, this week's episode of the CBB's Parenting Download podcast is all about friendships and how these can shift and change when you become a parent. Joining presenters Katie Thistleton and Governor B., our journalist and author Claire Cohen and reality TV star-star turned presenter Danny Diet. Danny told parenting download about the importance of meeting other parents at baby groups

when she became a mum during the pandemic. It was really tough for me not being able to have the freedom and, you know, being able to go to baby groups and stuff because I think baby groups are for the parents because you meet people. And, I mean, babies, they don't really care if you're dangling a pomp on really, do they? I mean, then it's for us. It's for us to have been a couple of hours out. And to just talk about nappies, talk about sleep.

talk about what milk your baby's on and I think baby groups are really, really important. I really do. If you haven't got friends around you. They're definitely for us. That is my social life now completely. It's right. Yeah, so fun.

I loved it. I used to bring my mum when I had the twins to some and she'd get all dressed up. She'd get right ready for it. When you'd have to dress up as a duck or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, that is, we're always, me and the girls that I met,

the other mum girls that I met were like, that is our happy place. You need it. And to hear that episode in full And many more on a range of parent-focused topics Just search for CBB's Parenting Download And you need that baby group In case any of you have been approached by

People telling you to try and keep your child quiet I'm going to carry on with some of your messages that are coming in Oh, message in said We've heard back from the person who told off the child on the plane Chris says that yes it did work The child sat down and didn't say a word for the next two hours Yeah, I'm sure Liz has been in touch to say

I volunteer in a charity shop If someone comes in with a screaming baby, one of the volunteers or a member of staff will approach the mother and tell her not to worry about it. We're all women and have all been there. Without fail, the mothers all seem to appreciate our approach. Now, we're going to talk about Syria. Specifically, the Kurdish-led self-administration in the northeast of the country. It's a territory where for years women have sat at the centre of political life, security and decision-making.

But many are worried that the system is now under pressure, a new agreement between Kurdish authorities and the Syrian government, which will integrate the region into the Syrian state being built after the toppling of Bashar al-Assad in 2024. Well, to explain more about this, I'm joined by Lena Shehouni, journalist at the BBC World Service, who's with me in the studio. And on the line from Germany, we have Dilla Dyrrhic, a Kurdish writer and author of the Kurdish Women's Movement, History, Theory and Practice. Welcome to both of you. Lina, I'm going to come to you first. So tell us a bit more. more about this region in Syria, put it into context and explain why there are concerns for women

there. So for years, this is a region that had enjoyed a bit of, or what we say, semi-autonomy. It's a semi-autonomous administration that looks after a chunk of the northeast of the country. And throughout the 14 years of the war, it constituted about a third of the country. country that was under the control of this self-administration. The government of Bashar al-Assad had a bit of presence in two cities in specific security quarters, but they did not have any administrative or even combat control over those areas. They had a separate fighting force. It was called the Syrian Democratic forces, made up of Kurdish-led. forces, but it's also multi-ethnic. They had a few, they had some Arab battalions in it.

And they formed the kind of protection for, protection force for that region. And kind of a very main ethos of the self-administration was to put women in high positions, to have women be visible and it's kind of how it tried to set itself apart from other opposition groups in the rest of Syria. They also had a military wing within the SDF, which was called the Women's Protection Forces, which was formed of women combatants if we are fighters. And so that's why it's a very particular experience versus other places. I'm going to bring you in, Dela, for you to explain a little bit more,

dig a bit deeper into the sort of the governance in that territory and women's governance in particular, and why it remains so different from most systems, political systems we're familiar with. So due to the geopolitical complexities and the focus on the military aspects, mainly in reporting about the region, what most people don't realize is that, as Lina just said, for a decade and a half, a hugely transformative system has been built up in the northeast of Syria. And this was also not done by Kurdish people alone, but together with people, including women,

from all the different communities living there, with all its limitations, of course. But many people saw images of the armed women's units, and that is, of course, a radical aspect, but there is much more to this. In fact, people there describe this as a women's revolution, because women were consciously, collectively empowered in politics, in art, in culture, the economy, they became such subjects, not least through formal mechanisms like co-presidency in all offices, quotas filled by appointments of the organized women's movement and not symbolic token quotas or appointments, and women's assemblies with authorities like veto powers, including in villages. So it's not perfect, but it's a

grassroots democratic progressive system built within a difficult context, of course, and the commitment to these efforts and the resulting developments, which were built autonomously based on also a revolutionary attachment to women's liberation as a precondition for free society, and not just as an afterthought. I think without debate, this is truly unprecedented. How interesting. And what's life like for women living there now? Of course, you cannot dismantle patriarchy in a decade, and social inequalities, patriarchal relations continue.

And the system, as I mentioned, has been built amid war and destruction. So there's all kinds of different issues from forced displacement to health, shortcomings, economic problems and so on. But there have been many changes in women's lives because equality and, in fact, the struggle to end patriarchal domination is enshrined in the region's social contract and in its formal documents. But beyond formal arrangements, also there's a whole societal and cultural infrastructure that was built for the purpose of women's liberation in all periods of life.

So for example, institutions like the women's houses, you know, or where domestic violence, for example, is directly being dealt with by the women's movement or within the schools in the university system there, there's a whole aspect of relearning history from an anti-peed and how have they done that? I mean, explain a bit more about what the co-presidency is, but I'm just intrigued to know how a society, a culture, how they've managed to do that and how important the sort of women were in instigating that. But of course, you've got to have men who are open and so accepting it as well. Yes, of course.

I mean, it's important to know that much of this comes from a very old legacy of organizing within the Kurdish freedom struggle. So it's not something that just emerged in the context of the Syrian context. In the Kurdistan freedom movement, you know, that's the main drive. of this prospect, a project, has been, is a socialist movement also. This is not something that is minor to consideration. So this aspect of women's autonomy goes back to the 1990s, where also inside Syria, the revolutionary groups have, you know,

organized inside ordinary society to empower them and to also, yeah, change, you know, the transformation of men is also a central pillar in the education efforts of the militant struggle, also in the mountains of Kurdistan. Elena, tell us, bring us up to speed about the ceasefire, which has just been announced and the agreements that have been put in place. Yeah, so this is an agreement that, you know, since the fall of Bashar al-Assad,

there was a lot of negotiations going on between the SDF and the Syrian government led by transitional government, I should say, led by Ahmed Shara. And, you know, the recent fighting that broke out in Aleppo was set to be, because, you know, those kind of negotiations had fallen apart. Now we have this new agreement that both sides agreed to on the 30th of January. It kind of what it stipulates is the integration of SDF forces into three brigades as part of the Syrian Defense Ministry.

and another brigade in a very iconic symbolic city called Kobani on the border with Turkey. This is a city that prides itself with having cast off ISIS militants from it through the fight of the SDF fighters. So now this is the stipulation from a military perspective. There's also one of the... One of the articles of the agreement is to also integrate the security forces in the area that secure Hasaka province in the northeast, but also the administrative and civil institutions with keeping, this is key, keeping the current civil staff within the government institutions.

Okay. And Dela, what are your biggest concerns about how women's power could be diluted as a reality? result of this? Yeah, so under this new reality, women faced an existential risk, not just as individuals, but the collective achievements as well. And this is also inherently linked to the nature of the entity that has seized power without popular mandate, which is also being legitimized internationally. So we see this, you know, in the self-documented gendered forms of violence committed by the state forces, also in other places, on alibi communities and the Druze. So it's a sectarian government. And there recently was a video that showed the dead body of a Kurdish

woman fighter, Denis Chia, being thrown off a building during the attacks on Aleppo, or the toppling and vandalization of symbols of the women's struggle, for example, a statue of a woman fighter was toppled and then vandalized. So all these things sent a clear message to people. And the visibility of women and the popular mobilization also speaks for itself. So what is present right now in the discourse in the self-government structures is that women's rights is a red line, but it's also one of the main points of conflict. So, Vian Afrin, who is a commander of the YPJ, the women's protection units, has said that there will be no SDF without the YPJ in relation to, you know, so there's a lot of uncertainty about what will happen on that front.

Salih Muslim, who's the co-chair of the Democratic Union Party, also said in interviews that the women's rights aspect is one of the main points of conflict. So this will keep coming up. And of course, if the situation escalates again, which is very likely, because this is a shaky agreement at the moment, the humanitarian disaster that will come will also, of course, have a specific impact on women. How interesting that one of the main points of conflicts are women's rights,

you've recently returned from Damascus, Lena. Yeah. And I just want to say that also for the Syrian government, the issue of women all over Syria empowering women was a key thing that a lot of people had concerns about. Because of the ideological background, you know, Ahmed Shadda used to be affiliated or the commander of HTS, which was affiliated by Al-Qaeda.

So there were concerns all over the country, not just in the Northeast, about the freedoms for women. And currently his transitional cabinet includes one woman, Hens Kabawat, who's the Minister of Social Affairs, who's also, when we travel, my colleague, or my colleague, our chief international correspondent,

Chief international correspondent, Lys Tusset and I, travelled to Damascus to interview the only woman, Minister Hind Kabawat, for the BBC World Service Global Women. And, you know, we asked her a lot of questions, and some of it was about women's freedoms. Some women expressed concern to us about growing Islamization, more women putting on the headscarves,

in the Umayyod mosque, there's now a barrier between the women and the men for the first time in history. Do you worry that little by little this is happening? It's not going to happen because the Syrian people, they won't allow this, because we want to have a freedom of religion, freedom of express our religion. I can tell you, many of my friends, they have, and even some of them, they have nukab, but doesn't mean that they don't have open hearts. and brain and everything. It's good to have your

Muslim or Christian identity, but don't forget, your biggest identity is Syria. Your biggest identity is Syria. So for Hindqibawat, you know, the struggle of empowering women, she says this time and time again. You know, Dilar mentioned

the violence committed against Ala whites and Jews. You know, she does admit that the mistakes have happened, but for Hindqabad, the dialogue is key. You know, there are conferences, there are women's movements, you know, for the Syrian women across the country. They want to be involved and they're trying to push the government and create more pressure

in order to have a space and in order to guarantee that. Delaar, Adir Kerk, and Lina Shakuni, thank you so much. And no doubt we will be returning to this story. So thank you. And if you want to hear more from Leicester Sets' full interview with Hindqqabawat, Syria's women at the top, then it's available. on the BBC World Service or via BBC Sounds. Now, well, a play, 916th's written and performed by theatre maker,

Paula Varjak, is about to embark on a UK tour. It examines the fallout from the infamous Janet Jackson, Justin Timberlake, wardrobe malfunction incident at the 2004 Super Bowl and the backlash that almost ruined Jackson's career. Described as a fast-fun and entertaining show, it uses the incident to examine the media treatment of middle-aged women, especially black middle-aged women, questioning what it says about the demographics

of who controls the media, the scrutinising of black women in the public eye, and asks if anything has changed. Paula, welcome. Thank you for having me on, and thank you for playing, what have you done for me lately. Yeah, and dancing to it as well.

I mean, I was very excited when I saw that you were coming in to talk about this. I'm a huge Janet Jackson fan. We've all got memories, if you're a certain age, of when we saw her for the first time on screen. But let's start with, the incident for people who don't remember, the wardrobe malfunction and why that was a, why you wanted to discuss that.

So the wardrobe malfunction and the term was actually coined by Justin Timberlake following the event was in 2004. We're coming up to actually, oh my gosh, 22 years next Sunday because Super Bowl Sunday is coming up. That's aged us. I know, I know. Let's not go there since it happened. And basically, Janet Jackson was the headliner of the Super Bowl halftime show that year. And at the very end of the performance, Justin Timberlake had a very short guest feature. He came on singing, Rock Your Body, and it ends with, we'll have you naked by the end of the song. What was meant to happen is that part of her Bustier was pulled off and there'd be a satin braw it underneath.

Unfortunately, the whole costume collapsed. Janet Jackson's nipple was on screen for nine sixteenths of a second, and a fallout ensued globally after that moment. Hence the title. What was the response at the time? I mean, the interesting thing is, you have to remember, this is pre- YouTube, early days of the internet. And the reality is most people in the world had no way of watching it. So you were either watching it live, which at time probably meant you were just watching it live on American television. Also, at the time, this will really age me, a thing called TiVo,

so you could record live television, which was very exciting back in the day on a hard drive, essentially. But no YouTube. So no way to watch it after the event. And so it means that the larger discourse was all based on still images because most people had no way of seeing it. Yeah. I suppose we should really put into context how important the Super Bowl is and the halftime performance because lots of people listening may not know.

I mean, the Super Bowl undoubtedly is the largest and most watched event on American television and it also means a lot for advertisers on American television. Commercial spots in the Super Bowl, run into the millions easily. And it's one of those really bizarre events where you have a sporting event and then in the middle for 10 minutes you have this almost Las Vegas-worthy pop number.

And there were 500,000 complaints about that. But I guess what you do in this brilliant play which I've watched the rehearsal of, I can't wait to see it, is examine what happened to Janet Jackson because she was put into context where she was in her career. Oh my God.

Absolutely, absolute height of her career. I mean, you don't get booked to headline to have some show unless you're at the height of your career. And what happened? And essentially, after that moment, she was forced to issue written apology. She was forced by our management to film a video statement apologizing despite the fact she's always maintained. It was an accident. It wasn't something that was planned. And following that, her music was pulled off American radio stations.

Her videos were pulled out off of TV stations. and she never quite recovered in the years that followed from it being pulled from the waves. Did the dude who actually, you know... Justin Timberlake. Did Trouser Snake himself have to say anything? No, no. Interestingly, Justin Timberlake, who did issue a public apology,

he was still on the Grammys a week after the event. He received two Grammys, in fact, that year. And then he went on to headline the Super Bowl halftime show in 2018. Why was that incident? What point did you decide you wanted to make a production about it and examine what happened? So I was a massive fan of Jenna Jackson when I was child. I'm thrilled that you played. What have you done for me lately?

Because it was the first music video of hers I ever saw. And that was such a really special moment for me because it was the first time I saw a black woman on MTV. And I am very much of the MTV generation. So I always had a real soft spot for her. But then I saw her live for the first time in 2019. I went to Glassenbury. I was hosting the open mic for the Poetry and Word stage. And she was so incredible.

This thing when you see an artist who's embedded into your upbringing. And even though you haven't listened to the albums in years, all the lyrics just come spilling out of you. So when I got in the coach going home, I thought, gosh, I really don't know what she was doing. I thought she just kind of stopped making music between 2004 and 2019. And then as I started to kind of read up on her, I realized that actually know she'd continuously work.

There were more albums, there were more music videos, there were films. And I really thought, why have I not heard of any of this output? I'm someone absolutely tapped into pop culture. And around 2022, I was very fortunate to have support from a company called Complicite, who gave me the offer to develop a project that I was interested in making. That's quite, that's a big deal. Yeah, it's a really big deal. I mean, I'm still, I still haven't quite gotten over it, even though I now have this relationship

with them now for several years. But it's the kind of thing you always wish for as an artist, for someone to just say, you don't have to write a funding application or proposal, but is there something that you're interested in making, have some time to research it? And it was when I started researching it, I found really awful things about decision makers behind the scenes

who had really effectively blocked her career. Why? What did it reveal? I mean, you've described this as a pop cultural odyssey. What do you unravel for us? I guess what I, so there's a lot of conversations obviously about representation. And often when we talk about lack of representation in the media, we talk about who's in front of the camera or on the mic and so on. But what it led me to is a journey into interrogating who is behind the scenes and what it means when there's a lack of representation within decision making, essentially. And we are still very much in a time where in nearly every single field I can think of, the people who run boards, who are CEOs, who are senior executives, are largely.

conservative white, rich, older men. And it's not to say that automatically means that they make bad decisions, but I fundamentally believe if you don't have diverse thinking in a room, you're not going to make decisions that reflect diverse communities. And so there was huge outrage

and this amazing icon, pop cultural icon, her career sort of vanished. Yes. Consequence. Yes, absolutely. And it was not just from the people who were in positions of power within media,

but it was also the early days of the E-form. And so there were lobbyists who were able to galvanize their followers. And those hundreds and thousands of complaints were largely from one lobby. Do you think it's relevant that she's a black woman? 100%. 100%. And I think it says so much to do with the sexualizing and fetishization of black women's bodies and the policing of black women's bodies.

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because we just had the Grammys and Chapel Rhone were of, I mean, both had an address that was just dangling from her ankles. How things have changed. Or have they? They have changed and yet they haven't, you know? I mean, one of the things that's been so extraordinary in this process is I've got this,

I can't tell you how much I love my ensemble. They're just the most amazing woman. Yes, please. We must celebrate your ensemble. Yeah. So it's the first time I've been in production where we were five black women all over the age of 40, incredible experiences and careers behind us. And I think the other thing that the show brought up for me is the realization,

I've never been in that room before. And I can't tell you, even from the first week we started devising, there was something so powerful for all of us. It's wild that we all have 20 plus years of careers individually. We had never been in that room until this project. Yes. And it took, because you were given the opportunity.

Yes. To sell whatever story you wanted by complicity. Thank you, complicity. Yes, yeah, absolutely. You also have a BSL interpreter as part of it. Why is that important? Yeah, so, I mean, I did a master's in performance making when I retrained performance at Goldsmithsmith,

and I had this absolutely incredible class in a disability theater module by Jenny Saley, who if you don't know is, oh my God, what an icon. She's the artistic director of Grey Eye, and she's the one who introduced me to the idea of integrated BSL. So if you're listening to this and you don't know it, that means the difference between integrated BSL, British Sign Language, and in Brisell interpreting,

is integrated BSL is when the interpreter is embedded in the action. They're fully a part of and rehearsed into the show. And 916th, we've got an amazing BSL interpreter Vanessa Brandt and also Sherry Gordon's. We have two people who are doing BSL in the show. And lots of dancing. And so much dancing. Are you a dancer? I am not a dancer and I love dancing.

But oh my God, I struggle with choreography. And Rhythm Nation, if you don't know. I mean, that's my, you're talking to, I mean, the choreography of Rhythmation, I remember watching that on MTV and trying to learn the dance moves. Paula Abdel was. Yes, yeah. Let's get some trivia out there. Paul Abdul was not the choreographer of Rhythm Nation, Anthony Joseph as a choreographer of Rhythm Nation.

And I think he was only 23 at the time. It is such, I can't tell you how tough this routine is. We have been working hard to get it ready for audiences. Can audiences join in? Well, I mean, maybe in their seats, but it might be tricky. It's taken us four weeks. So good luck, guys. What do you want them to take away very quickly?

I think the most important thing for me in the cast is a message of empowerment and solidarity and community. between black women and just the absolute extraordinary endurance and brilliance of the community of black women. It's a really joyous show, even though it does how heavy themes. Yeah, and a celebration and a fitting tribute and homage to an icon. Absolutely. We are mega fans and she is the reason that we are making this show. Hooray, here, here. Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me, Paul. I can't wait to see it. 916 starts. It's a 19-date UK tour. Starts next Monday, the 9th of February in Bristol. and we'll finish with a two-week run at the Brixton House in London towards the end of May.

And that's it from me. Do join me tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. None of us know how we'll react when the world changes. From Limelight, the supernatural horror returns to Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. It's you, in it? The Mould Woman. The new series of Spores. Hi, Cassie, we're running a feature on the spore threat next week, and I'm... I didn't want this.

We're looking to speak to women, like yourself, who can see the mold. But in the last 12 years, since I first saw the mold, my story isn't mine anymore. The World Health Organization has now declared spore events to be a major global health crisis. If you inhale the spores... This fungus is insidious. If they get to the brain and infect you, then... Spores, Season 2. Listen first on BBC Sounds.