Woman's Hour - Champagne, Nurses strike, Autism and motherhood

Episode Date: December 18, 2019

Champagne goes with Christmas! So who are the women behind the big brands, past and present? We're talking to Françoise Peretti, Director of the Champagne Bureau UK, as well as Joanna Simon. drinks journalist.Nurses in Northern Ireland are on strike today and over 90% of nurses there are women. They're on strike to get the same pay as colleagues in other parts of the UK and get better staffing levels. But Northern Ireland's healthcare system is in trouble and 300,000 people are waiting to see a consultant according to figures from the Department of Health. We hear from Rita Devlin from the RCN in Belfast.We're looking at pregnancy and early motherhood if you have autism. One of our listeners got in touch explaining how hard the whole experience can be. We hear her story and then speak to Lana Grant, who's a mother of six and also has autism. She advises midwives on how to help pregnant mums with autism, like our listener.And Part 3 of our series on Amsterdam's Red Light District.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 18th of December. Good morning. In today's programme... ..the name Verve Clicquot gives a hint of the woman behind the famous champagne brand. Verve, in French, is widow, and she's not alone.

Why were so many champagnes founded by a widow? Pregnancy and the early days of being a mother for women on the autistic spectrum. How well understood are the needs of mother and child? And in Amsterdam, the mayor proposes closing brothels and ending street window displays in the city's red light district. What will be the impact on the women who work there? Now, as you may have heard in the news, nurses in Northern Ireland are taking part

in a 12-hour strike today. It's the first time members of the Royal College of Nursing have taken part in industrial action in the college's 103-year history. They're arguing for pay parity with the rest of the UK and for their staffing levels to be improved. During this week's discussions about bringing the Stormont Parliament back into operation, the DUP leaderlene Foster, made the NHS a priority. I also hope that we see a willingness to deal with what is the largest issue facing us at this present moment in time, and that of course is our health service. The fact that we have the largest waiting list per head of population in the United Kingdom, over 300,000 people sitting on a waiting list, and we need to

deal with that, and we need to deal with that and we need to deal with it urgently. Well the nurses in Northern Ireland, 91% of whom are women, worked strictly to their contracts earlier in December but this is the first time they will participate in a full strike, doing no work at all. Rita Devlin is the professional lead for nursing in Northern Ireland and she joins us from Belfast. Rita, why an actual strike for the first time ever? Morning Jenny. The reason that the RCN went out and asked members to vote for industrial action up to and including strike was because we felt that the condition of the health service in Northern Ireland had deteriorated beyond a level that we were able to sit back and do nothing and say nothing.

So as a nurse, your NMC code of conduct tells you that if you see anything that impacts on your ability to deliver safe care, you must raise and escalate concerns. So what is it like working on the wards in Northern Ireland at the moment? I have to say, Jenny, in some areas it is horrendous. We have very, very high vacancy rates, about 3,000 nurses short in the health service alone. That doesn't include the nursing homes.

We have, as you know, it's a 91% female population in nursing. So we have a lot of part-time workers. And we have a lot of nurses who are struggling to balance both being mothers and wives and carers, along with being nurses. And the NMC figures that ask why nurses were leaving, a lot of nurses cited the lack of flexibility to be able to deliver a work-life balance as being one of the main reasons why

they were leaving the NMC register early. I know you were on the wards yesterday. Yes. What did you actually see? To be honest, I saw some traumatised nurses. And the reason I use the word traumatised was because they were patients. This was in an emergency department. There were patients sitting up and down in chairs with oxygen masks, with IV drips. There was no beds for them. There was nowhere for them to go. And the nurses were actually traumatised.

And I don't use that word lightly. And this isn't new, this is what our nurses have been dealing with for year upon year. Gradually getting worse to the extent now where they felt that strike was the only option open to them. Why are nurses in Northern Ireland paid less than those in other parts of the UK? Well, that's a very contentious issue, Jenny, because, as you know, health is a devolved issue. And in Northern Ireland, a minister back in one of the DUP ministers decided that they would pay nurses less.

And a few years they paid a 1% increase, but it was non-consolidated. So at the end of the year, that pay rise was lost, if that makes sense. And so therefore they went back to their original pay scale. So that's why we have the gap that we have now between England. We have a significant gap between Northern Ireland and England and Wales and an even more significant gap between Northern Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland. Now, as we've said, 91% of Northern Ireland's nurses are women. How significant is the gender question in the way nurses are paid and promoted in Northern

Ireland? That's an interesting question because there is a big push all across the UK to get more men into nursing and there is a view that if you bring men into nursing it'll be better for nursing but honestly our experience has been if you bring more men into nursing, it's better for men in nursing. It's not better for nursing because the men have a significantly quicker rise to the top. They are well overrepresented in the top management positions in nursing. And so where we would think if it was a less female occupation, we might have more traction and be more valued, actually the situation perpetuates itself because the women are kept at the bottom and the men rise to the top.

Now there are talks going on aimed at restoring Stormont and devolved government. How hopeful are you that there will be a functioning government soon and what will it have to do to improve your health service? How hopeful am I? We've lived in hope for a long time Jenny so it's very hard to raise your hopes again. What they will have to do, if they do succeed in getting back around the table and they do make health a priority, there are two significant issues. Proper investment, a proper workforce plan, because we have been without a workforce plan for a long time. The transformation agenda needs to be brought forward.

We have had report after report that tells us our health service in Northern Ireland isn't fit for purpose and huge transformation is needed. So there needs to be political will, there needs to be leadership and there needs to be investment. Rita Devlin, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Thank you, Jenny. Earlier this month we received an email from a woman who didn't want to be identified, but wondered if we might be prepared to discuss the experience of pregnancy

and early parenthood for women on the autistic spectrum. She told us she was diagnosed with Asperger's in 2012 and is more than 20 weeks pregnant. She told us she can't cope with touch, has a high pain threshold and said, my experience of pregnancy has been very different from my friends. Well, she told Siobhan Tai what her plans are over the next few months. Well, I was diagnosed with Asperger's about, gosh, five years ago and I recently fell pregnant and every time I google autism and pregnancy almost everything that comes up are articles on how to prevent yourself having an autistic baby which is somebody who I quite enjoy elements of having Asperger's or as it's

now called autism I you know find that sort that quite frustrating and a little bit insulting. How is your autism, how does it manifest itself as an adult? For people who don't know you, how would you describe it? I think one of the biggest things is hypersensitivity. Noise and lights are really difficult. Coordination, I bump into things a lot. I don't like eating in front of people because I drop food constantly. Things like needing predictability and certainty, a real intolerance of change of plan, needing to do things in specific orders.

You know, I've got sort of a master's, but my brain can't process using the wrong mug at breakfast. I just get a complete blank wall if I'm presented with the wrong mug. Things like Christmas meals with colleagues are really hard. So this time of year is going to be a hugely pressurised time for you, is it? It's quite a private time, I think. Yeah, I tend now just to avoid the big events. Even with my family, I eat Christmas dinner in the other room. They're very good about it.

So you reached a stage in your life where you decided you wanted a baby. Yes. And? Because you've told me before on the phone that touch is also uncomfortable for you absolutely um i want to say first of all which is i think a really important point is as many different autisms as there are personalities and so my experience is just my experience i'm sure there are women out there who've had very different experiences but for me i find touch really really difficult and so conception was was quite a challenge my partner and I were lucky enough to have a very supportive GP we ended up using a kit

which actually worked really well but that was initially that was that was the big hurdle because you know it's not it was not a traditional way to go about things you know I was I was single for most of my 20s and forming a relationship was very difficult. So that's probably the biggest thing is establishing a relationship. And I appreciate, I mean, I know from friends that finding a partner is difficult for many, many people. But I think for me, things like, I don't know, communication issues, finding touch difficult, anxiety, needing control, needing predictability, struggling with ambiguity. And you need somebody who will understand that and who will accept it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think all those things made, and misreading people, made forming relationships almost impossible.

And I was then diagnosed that sort of early 30s. And it was then that I was able to form a relationship because I felt like I suddenly had all the missing pieces to this puzzle, this thing I've been trying to work out for 15 years and I knew how to how to control my behavior and how to communicate and my partner then knew how to understand what was going on with me as well but it is a relief because 10 years ago I would not have thought this was possible. So you're pregnant now due next year year. Yes. What's the plan? So the first plan with delivery is, for us, we've decided a C-section is the easiest route because of the predictability and the certainty. And I find stages and systems very calming.

That's the route we've decided to take. Again, I think a lot of autistic women have very successful vaginal births. But for us, we thought c-section was easier what about the hospital environment because you've mentioned before about your sensitivity to sounds and to strong light yeah we are i'm very worried about that and that's something that um i'm in discussion conversation with the midwives at the moment um i think the staying the night after the c-section are the big worry particularly if it's a shared ward which it might well be um moving lights and small noises i mean i was saying to to our midwife yesterday it's the equivalent to asking someone with vertigo

to sleep the night after giving birth next to a cliff edge you know you're just in fight or flight the whole time and actually our midwives have been hugely supportive and with us every step of the way but a few of them have said yeah we've never dealt with this before which to me seems extraordinary because statistically there must be a lot of women on the autistic spectrum going in and having children I'm sure I'm not the only one. What happens when the baby's born have you thought about touch in that circumstance and also breastfeeding? We're going to give breastfeeding a go but I'm very realistic that for me again I think lots of women who have Asperger's or autism breastfeed very successfully

I'm not sure how I'll find it so we're open-minded about it. Would that make you feel anxious though once the baby is born that the baby is put directly on you or are you just going to see how it goes? I think my partner's volunteered to do that bit so he's going to have it on him that's the idea. So how well are doctors and midwives prepared for helping a woman with autism get through a pregnancy birth and then caring for a child? Lana Grant was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome in her late 30s. She has six children and works as an advisor to other autistic people. She's the author of From Here to Maternity, Pregnancy and Motherhood on the Autism Spectrum. And she joins us from Birmingham. Lana, how familiar to you are the experiences we just heard?

Well, extremely familiar. In fact, it was really interesting to hear the experience um of of the lady that you just spoke to talking about googling um autism and pregnancy because that's what led me to write the book um i received my diagnosis after i'd had five children already um and then when i was pregnant with my sixth child um decided that actually here I've got this diagnosis, this pregnancy and birth will be different. There must be a peer group for me out there somewhere. But when I googled autism and pregnancy, I came across things that told me how not to have an autistic child, which again, like the previous lady, I found quite offensive because I do have autistic children. I am autistic

and like like her there are lots of parts of being autistic that I value and that I'm really proud of so as you explain five of the babies were born before you were diagnosed yeah how easy was it for you to understand some of the difficulties you were having without a diagnosis it it it was only through looking back and processing it when i wrote the book that actually made me realize that i had found labor in particular um incredibly difficult um it was for it was fight or flight um i struggled with the anxiety i think i got anxious around not knowing when my babies would be due um and basically i think because i'd spent most of my life feeling as though i was a failure at most things i just guessed that i was probably a failure at pregnancy as well

um but i knew that actually when i had my babies I was a really good mum so I think I didn't process it as being a difference because I didn't really know much about autism in women and I think it was a case of realising actually after I'd had my diagnosis I have to try and do this differently there you know I have to put some plans in place I have my diagnosis. So it was incredibly difficult to understand why I found labour so horrific because I panicked. I panicked about not knowing what was happening. I panicked about the lights, the sounds, the smells, all of those things that the other lady just discussed.

But six children, how much planning went into those six experiences well not much planning at all i think with my first child i was told that i would have a hospital birth and i just accepted that because i'd grown up you know grown up in the 80s where watched lots of american soap operas didn't we and everyone went off to have a baby they went off into this room and then the next time you saw them they got this tiny little bundle and everything was it was neat and and kind of done um so i accepted that i would have a hospital birth um but it was only later on that i realized actually you don't have to be in hospital um and a lot of of women that i've spoken to since have had home births or they've had births in maternity units where it's much more personalised.

So really not a great deal of planning went into those. I just kind of got swept away with the hospital routine. Now, you said you found caring for your children, that you were actually very good at that. But how difficult is it if you have a fear of being touched and of touching well as as the previous caller said some everyone who is autistic is different um i only have an adversity to touch when i'm highly anxious other times and lots of other autistic people quite like deep pressure or they seek out so they're they're tactile seeking as opposed to tactile avoidant which is what the lady before was discussing

so i think with my children i was very tactile seeking so i could hold them um and and i could care for them and cuddle them but i do know that lots of other women aren't in that position because obviously we're all different and we all experience our sensory needs differently. Now, you train midwives to help women with autism. What do you actually teach them? Well, I've done one lot of training. I suggested I've done one lot of training with midwives in Birmingham. but unfortunately as we heard in the first segment the NHS is is under so much pressure that I think it's not a priority and I'm not criticizing the NHS it's not a priority because

actually we're a minority group so to speak a diagnosed autistic woman we're in a minority group so although I've done training for midwives what I tend to do more is to try and empower women through supporting them with their birth plans through talking to them about how to communicate with their midwife because it is a very personal experience so I've kind of moved away from because you can yeah you can train midwives I train midwives teachers etc but what we need to do is we need to empower autistic women to be able to talk about what's working for them what's not working for them so I talk about talk them through their birth plans and remind them that the standard birth plans that you might get with with the

maternity books don't necessarily focus on their needs as autistic women so they need to remember their sensory needs and they need to not be scared to talk about that to say look I need a single room if I'm having an emergency section or I struggle to be in a ward with four people I find that really hard I mean myself when I had my last child even with my diagnosis I was in I was in a room on my own. But then they wanted to move me to a four-bed ward. And I had a complete meltdown and wanted to discharge myself from hospital. Because the thought of having to be in a ward with other people's babies crying,

with people speaking, lights, etc., was just too overwhelming for me. So it's empowering women to be able to talk about what they need. Now, obviously, some women will worry that their children will have autism too how common is it for the condition to be inherited well we do know that it's genetic um the amount i mean i've worked with um hundreds and thousands of children um over an 18 year kind of career career in education. And very often one or both parents are undiagnosed, but you can tell that they're on the autistic spectrum. And very often their diagnosis comes after their child's and that's what happened with myself. And they've just thought that, you know, they find things difficult.

They don't get on with people. They struggle with all the sensory needs so i think what i would say to women is it's not it's not autism that's the problem it's the world that we're trying to fit into and it's much better now than it was 10 years ago 15 years ago when i first became involved with autism we've got much more awareness but we we need to keep that going yes it's genetic but then so is hair colour eye colour personality traits and actually there are so many positive things about autism that it's it's something to be celebrated and it's fitting into the world around so I think that is the problem. Lana Grant, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.

And we would, of course, like to hear from you. If you've had experiences like the ones we've just heard, do get in touch with us. You can get hold of us on Twitter or indeed on email. Now, still to come in today's programme, the Merry Widows of Champagne. Why were so many of the famous champagnes begun by women known as verve the french for widow and the third episode of the serial subterranean homesick

blues now earlier in the week you may have missed a discussion about sanna marin finland's new prime minister who at 34 is the world's youngest leader of her country and being single at christmas and spending the festive period with curious parents. Don't forget, if you miss the live programme, you can catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app. Anna Miller has been reporting for us from Amsterdam on the mayor's proposed changes to the red light district there. She aims to close brothels in the city centre and end the tradition of women displaying themselves for sale in shop windows. Enna has been asking how sex workers, campaigners, tourists and residents feel about them. What's at the root of the proposals? Is

the greatest concern for the gentrification of the city or for the safety of the women in the sex industry. There's lots of people in and outside Amsterdam talking about what the mayor, Femke Selma, wants to try and change here in the Red Light District. Now, I got a chance to speak to an escort called Velvet December, and she agreed to speak to me. She feels that window work here is safe work, and it's also created, I guess, a sense of routine that people don't want to see changing. Now, she's part of a group that's lobbied for change

that matters to a lot of sex workers, but she feels, well, they feel very ignored. The Red Light District is a very famous or infamous area in Amsterdam, so it's often a very exciting environment. Part of the excitement for the client is walking around the area and trying to find someone that they like, discussing at the door what the options are. The average visit in a window is only seven minutes.

So it's focused on quite fast encounters, but really exciting and quite unique in the world. My name is Velvet December. I'm a burlesque dancer and a former escort. Since the Project 1012, which is the postal code of this area, a lot of windows have been closed down. Other shops came into these spaces. So it changed the audience as well. The mayor wants to change the area for the better. But we're not sure if sex workers rights are on the top of the agenda. What is the issue here at the moment? She said that she thinks putting women on display, quote unquote, is not

something of this century. Well, she finds it humiliating to be, quote unquote, on display like this. This is not the case for all sex workers who work in this area. That is her opinion. So she would like to see different forms of sex work in this area, or perhaps change it altogether. Moving the windows to the outskirts of the city is a bad idea. The sex workers in the red light district here are right now being presented as sort of the victims of tourists. Well, this is absolutely not the case.

If you work in a red light district, the tourists are your clients. And it's been like this for many, many years. And the other window areas are more attractive for the Dutch client. And the tourists usually don't know about them. So the sex workers know this. They have built a steady clientele. They're in the same window in the same days. You know, there's a routine here.

And actually, the busyness creates a lot of safety as well. Putting it in a very quiet area outside of the city will harm the income of the sex workers and their safety. I've read quotes from the mayor where she says she wants to combat the humiliation of women by the large groups of tourists that come here. So therefore, she's basically on your side? I would like to believe that her intentions are good, and for a certain extent, I know they are. She is a politician. She's been in parliament, in the national parliament,

and has pushed for the lifting of the brothel ban in 2000. So she's definitely not anti-sex work completely. But I do think that her feminism is a bit old-fashioned and not as intersectional as I'd like it to be. When I was walking around the last couple of nights, I saw the aggression of sex workers when they think a tourist is taking pictures of them. You know, it's quite outward.

They are annoyed. You see the sex workers sticking their fingers up at tourists. You see tourists, women, men laughing at them, men saying things like, what's for sale tonight? Check the size of those tits. Women saying this is really sad. You know, it's entertainment. The problem lies with the behaviour of the tourists. If people misbehave, then this is the thing that must be addressed. We have been asking for a ban on taking photos of sex workers in the municipal bylaws. And the municipality has not delivered on this. Sometimes there is a police officer who would say to the tourists that they cannot do this and that it's disrespectful.

But there are also officers that would say, oh, don't mind what those whores say. So, you know, this inconsistency and the moral judgment of the people in the area, outside of the sex workers, if we don't get that straightened out, then it becomes increasingly difficult to create an effective approach to address the behaviour of the tourists. You've got signs saying, paying, we will fine you 140 euros.

But what you don't have is a sign saying, if you take a picture and we catch you, it's 500 euros. Yeah, there has been a campaign against taking photos, but people thought of it as a challenge to take more photos. So what do you want to happen? I would like to see more room in the legislation for innovation in the industry, so that sex workers who work in the windows are able to advertise online as well. Increasingly, legal spaces to do sex work. We know that window working is a safe way of working. So I'm not suggesting at all that creating sort of a love hotel

would be instead of a set of windows. All options should be available. I've spent the last couple of days walking around Amsterdam, seeing all different types of women standing in the windows, and I've seen lots of punters or clients or whatever you want to call them, tourists, coming in and out of the window rooms. So I've been intrigued. And there's a guy here called Rick in Amsterdam that runs a brothel,

and he's giving me the chance to actually step inside one and see what it's like for myself. My name is Rick Viergever. I work at My Red Light, which is Amsterdam's first non-profit brothel. Do you want to see the office, or do you want to go down to the rooms? The rooms, please. I'm sure your office is nice. Are all the buildings this steep inside?

This is very typically Dutch inner centre architecture. Right. This is massive. This is not what I expected. No, this is our biggest room that you're standing in now. So as you can see, there's a big bathtub here. There's a pole dancing pole. There's a big chair where our renters sit. And from the window, there's a big two-person bed.

So everything here is kind of in tune with what sex workers need from a room. The one thing that I noticed coming into the room is, it sounds terrible, when you're outside, you just just think how clean is it in there but when you actually walk in it's really warm and it's smells squeaky clean yeah it is so dang and it has to be uh to be honest uh spotless because we get checked very regularly which is actually quite funny they bring u UV lights to check for any... What, say the words? Well, they check if they see something.

And so obviously the reason I'm here is to discuss what is happening within the red light district. Are you able to talk about what impact all these discussions might have on your business? To start with, something that's worthwhile stressing because it's not been picked up enough in the media is that the mayor has proposed four options for sex work in the city. And one of the options is to close the curtains, another one is to move them,

but another option is to increase the number of windows. So there's a lot of focus on that it might be going away or it might be closing, but it might be expanding too. What I really like about the municipalities' approach is that they're very open about it, that those four options are on the table and that they're really looking at everything. So, for example, they hired a person who just walks around here for several weeks and talks to everyone and then makes a report of everything that he's heard in the neighborhood. Because things can be improved. Being a sex worker is still a taboo and as a result there's a lot of stigma

and discrimination for example for sex workers it's impossible or really difficult to open a bank account to get a mortgage to get insurances sex workers are often kicked out of their houses. What would you like to happen? We have very clear views on sex work as a labor sector. The thing to strive for is to have a good, empowered and safe sector. But I think let the market do its work. Let there be as many sex workers or brothels as the market requests, just like with any other business. Then try to make it as transparent as possible because the business is currently quite opaque. That's not good for anyone.

One of the big issues that I'm reading about is obviously tourists. You need the tourists, but the tourists are becoming the problem. Tourists are a blessing because they bring in money and they drive the economy forth. But I always wonder why people do that, just come to look here and, again, even worse, take pictures. Like any tourist attraction, where we don't see it happen on a daily basis,

it's absolutely fascinating and mind-boggling. So you and I see this area differently. You see a tourist attraction, I see a place where people are trying to do their work. And all of NML's reports from Amsterdam can be found on BBC Sands. It is one week to Christmas Day and you may be planning toasting family and friends

with a glass or two of champagne. The champagne industry is very much a feminine affair. The great houses were often begun by women who appear to have become known as the merry widows. Only one, Verve Clicquot, wears her marital status on her bottles, but Verve, of course, is widow in French. Why were so many widows involved in putting the bubbles into wine? Well, Joanna Simon is the editor of the Waitrose and Partners drinks magazine. Françoise Perretti is director of the Champagne Bureau UK. Françoise, who were the women who founded the great

houses that you prefer? Well, they must have been formidable women because they didn't choose to run those emblematic houses. They inherited them because their husbands died. So I would have loved to have met some of them because they must have been extraordinary. Joanna is going to talk about a few. I will just mention a couple, especially Louise Pomery and Mathilde-Emilie Perrier, who both loved England so much that they were instrumental in developing the most popular style of champagne we know today, which is brut, the drier style of champagne.

And at a time, you know, in the 19th century, when people loved sweeter styles of champagne, these two formidable widows invented, or at least were instrumental, in catering for the British market, creating those drier styles. Joanna, who would you choose? Oh, I have to choose Madame Clicquot, Veuve Clicquot, in fact called Barb Nicole Clicquot, and then I'd have to choose Lily Bollinger. Why Lily Bollinger?

I think everybody loved Lily Bollinger. She was charming, but she was very astute. She was widowed when she was 42 and she took on the business. She married into champagne. She married a Bollinger, whereas Madame Clicquot didn't marry into champagne. It wasn't a champagne family. And she was famous for cycling around the vineyards on her bike. And she made for Bollinger one of their signature styles called RD, Recently Disgorged.

And she was at the helm for, must be 30 years. What does Recently Dis discoloured mean? Oh, well, when you're ageing champagne, you're ageing it on its lees, its yeasty dregs. That's what gives the sort of depth and flavour. That's what makes champagne so different from other sparkling wines. But these dregs have got to be got out of the bottle. Madame Clicquot was very important in actually working out actually what we still use

as the modern method. But recently disgorged is when you age the champagne for years and years and years on its lees, it used to be that those champagnes that were kept like that for much, much longer

were just sort of given to family and friends. And Lily Bollinger launched it as a commercial style. So, Françoise, what would you say they were most well-known for developing? I think the style of the bottle, for one thing. Well, I think all these emblematic widows were famous for being instrumental in riddling, which is also one of the steps that Joanna is talking about, about the one before disgorging.

They were instrumental in the shape of the bottle. They were instrumental in a drier style of champagne. So they were quite formidable. But what strikes me is how competent they were quite formidable. But what strikes me is that how competent they were, because at the time, you know, especially in the 19th century, you didn't find many women, widows or not, you know, running businesses. So they were formidable businesswomen. They were also very much instrumental in exporting champagne. When we go to champagne and visit the cellars, we see the names of the markets that go back, you know, the export markets that go back

to the beginning of the 19th century. So they very much, you know, gave an impulse, you know, to go towards the international markets. Who are the women running labels now? Because I think it's still very feminine, isn't it? Well, the champagne region is very feminine, isn't it? 60% were women. 60% of Enology students in the Champagne region are women. I couldn't give you the whole list because there are hundreds of women who are CEOs, owners, wine growers, cellar masters, winemakers in the Champagne region. And, you know, I'd like to believe that the future in Champagne is feminine. Now, you have brought a bottle with you. You, Françoise, have expertise in opening champagne bottles.

I'll try. I'm sure you've done it once or twice. I'll try. Joanna, what are you recommending for this Christmas? Well, I have to recommend Ayala because it belongs to Bollinger and is one of the champagne houses that has a

chef de cave, a chief winemaker who is a woman. I would recommend Augusta, De Vos Augusta. Very good value. I have to say that Waitrose current vintage is an absolute

bargain. Of course you do. You work for them. Exactly. The co-op's own range, Les Pionniers, always good value. And I have a personal favourite, a little house called Alfred Gracien, and they supply the Wine Society's champagne. That's lovely.

Françoise, let's have a pop. Shall I open it? Yes. And it does sound very, very good. And we will taste it later. Françoise Peretti and Joanna Simon, thank you both very much indeed for joining us this morning. And cheers.

Thank you, Jenny. I was talking to Françoise Peretti and Joanna Simon. We had lots of response from you on the discussion about being pregnant and taking care of a small child if you have autism. Dr Kate Fox said thank you for centering on the experience of an autistic adult. The interviewees were great. Two autistic women were the expert voices on autistic experience. This is all so rare to hear. Anna Wilson said on Twitter, My mum was one of the lost generation of being undiagnosed.

And it always makes me sad to think of the support that's still lacking. It's so important that we realise that women present differently from men. The archetypes we think of when we hear the word autism are not always applicable to women. My mother had a sense of humour, liked cuddles, and was not good at maths. And Julia Brigdale on Twitter also said, my son and daughter, 22 and 18, are both diagnosed.

This will be hugely helpful to them. Their diagnosis is not the problem. Trying to fit into a misinformed society is. talking about the thousand women who've signed up with 50-50 Parliament to register their interest in standing as an MP next time there's an election. And this has happened since the election last week. Tomorrow, I'll be joined by Frances Scott, who founded the network, and a young woman who's been inspired to sign up. That's two minutes past ten tomorrow. Until then, bye-bye. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.