Woman's Hour - Chanel Miller, Fushsia Dunlop, Disrupt the feed

Episode Date: October 10, 2019

We hear from the woman known, until recently, as Emily Doe. Chanel Miller was sexually assaulted while she was unconscious on the ground on Stanford University campus in the USA. Her Victim Impact statement which she addressed to her attacker Brock Turner was published on Buzzfeed and was viewed online by eleven million people within four days. In her memoir is titled Know My Name - she explains why. Following the death of a new born baby in a cell at Bronzefield prison in Surrey, we talk to Deborah Coles, the director of Inquest about what the overarching investigation will need to do, to help prevent further tragedies in women's prisons. Edwina Dunn, a data entrepreneur and founder of the educational charity The Female Lead, believes that social media can be used to improve teenagers’ mental health. She explains how - and we hear from Dr Anne-Lise Goddings, Clinical Lecturer at UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health. And, Fuchsia Dunlop explores the flavours of Sichuanese cuisine - known for its liberal use of chillies and Sichuan pepper.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Ruth Watts

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast. Six years ago, a young woman was sexually assaulted at Stanford University and became known as Emily Doe. Her victim impact statement in court was published on BuzzFeed and viewed online by 11 million people. Well, today, Chanel Miller talks to us about the assault, the trial and her memoir, which she's called Know My Name. The impact of social media on girls may not be as negative as we've been led to believe. Research that shows it can be a force for good, and cooking the perfect food of the Chinese province of Sichuan.

Fuchsia Dunlop on chilies and pepper. Now, last Friday, a newborn baby died in a cell at the Bronzefield Women's Prison, privately run by Sodexo. There are now 10 separate investigations into the death, and on Tuesday the Prisons Minister Lucy Fraser confirmed that the Prison and Probation Ombudsman has been instructed to carry out an overarching inquiry into the death. Last year a study concluded pregnant women in prison were not getting the medical care they needed and supported proposals backed by the Royal College of Midwives.

What may be learned from this latest investigation and how might it prevent it happening again? Well, Deborah Coles is the Director of Inquest. We spoke earlier this morning and she told me what this inquiry needs to address. I think, first of all, it must ensure that all the other investigations feed into it, because we know there are at least 10 other investigations ongoing. But critically, it needs to involve the mother and her family. It needs to speak to those with expertise in working with women in prison, in particular, birth companions, women in prison. And I'm encouraged by a conversation I had this very morning with the PPO,

who said that she will take up that expertise. But I think it raises other important questions about why on earth are we still sending women to prison despite the fact that we have had the Causton Seminal Report back in 2007 and we've had countless investigations into deaths of women in prison. There have been 108 women who've died in the prison system since Causton came out. Recommendations pointing to important concerns about mental and physical health care. And so this is an opportunity to look beyond this tragic case. You see, last year, an inquest identified neglect and lack of basic health care had contributed to the death in her cell of Natasha Chin. So what underlying problems at Bronzefield really need to be investigated? I mean, I think there are issues with Bronzefield, you're right.

Natasha Chin's death raised real concerns about levels of neglect and failing health care services. We were also concerned to find out that last year, there was a review by the NHS Trust into a number of pregnant women who had either one, one had a stillbirth, one baby ended up in neonatal care. And there were concerns raised about the delays in transferring pregnant women to hospital. And of course, a report that encouraged learning and changes in processes. So I think the problems at Bronzefield are one thing. It's a privately run prison. It charges massive amounts of money to imprison women. And there are fundamental questions about that we still imprison so many women and what kind of society are we that can have a situation where a woman can give birth alone in a cell and that baby dies you see last year we discussed the study which concluded pregnant women were not getting the care they needed but why is it so difficult to tackle

problems even when they've been identified, reported, known about? Well, there are two points here. I mean, I think firstly, we should be looking at this as a public health issue and not a criminal justice issue. I think it raises concerns about, you know, how unsafe prisons are for women and in particular pregnant women or women with mental health or other health care concerns. But I also think it points to the fact that we see repeated recommendations made and they simply gather dust. There's no oversight mechanism that monitors and follows up action that are taken to what are potentially life-saving recommendations. And of course, this points to a real accountability gap because it means that deaths, serious injuries, other serious concerns about prisons and prison health care,

recommendations made, and there is inaction by those who should be responsible. And this is also, we've got to remember, this is about human rights. This is about the duty of care on behalf of prisons to keep women safe. Now, you mentioned the Causton report, which was 12 years ago. You're quite adamant that maybe women shouldn't be in prison at all. That's not what Causton said. You know, there are some women who need to be kept in prison. That's right, Jenny.

And the numbers, however, are probably less than 100. And what she said and what Inquest argues is that for those whose offence is so serious, or they may be considered a danger to others, that what we need is a network of small therapeutic units for those women. And what we have got to do is redirect resources away from criminal justice systems to welfare, to health services, particularly mental health and addiction services. You know, we have to ask the question, why is there always room found in prisons, but we can't find, for example,

a room for a woman in a mother and baby unit. We have got to start looking at these issues differently. How hopeful are you that future recommendations after this case will be put in place? Well, at the moment, I can't say that I am, but I do know that there are some fantastic NGOs working to try and ensure that not only is the action taken to prevent future deaths of women and children in prison, but there is on the political agenda firmly the issue about the need to do something different, because this case is deeply saddening. It makes me really angry, however, that yet again, we're having to ask questions of governments about why it is that they have failed to act on clear evidence about the fact that we need to stop sending women to prison in the first place. I was talking to Deborah Coles and the Ministry of Justice has confirmed that all

10 separate investigations and the Prison and Probation Ombudsman's overarching investigation are ongoing. Now it's generally assumed that social media is not necessarily a good thing for girls. Too many selfies, too much worrying about not getting enough likes and too much attachment to influencers who concentrate on make-up and clothes. Well, some research carried out at Cambridge University and commissioned by the educational charity The Female Lead has found that if it's used in the right way, social media can be good for teenagers and their mental health.

Well, I'm joined by Dr. Anna-Lisa Goddings, who lectures at Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, and Edwina Dunn, the founder of The Female Lead. Edwina, what did you want to find out when you commissioned this research? Well, we knew, we found out through some quantitative research that girls in their millions were following a diet of almost exclusively males, boy bands and pretty much nothing else, celebrity and fashion. Whereas the contrast with boys was a much more diverse diet of sports people, business people, politicians, gamers. And so we were already aware of the fact that there was a very, very distinct divide between girls' and boys' consumption. And Dr. Terry Apter had been interested in the female lead campaign, and we decided to do some um you know really qualitative research in schools with young girls 11 to 17 and asked them and what did the research show the research showed

that girls were very much um taking on a diet of of of almost exclusively celebrity and fashion. They even called it a kind of cringe binge, which involved, you know, Love Island and Kardashians. They knew it was bad, but they were, you know, almost with peer pressure forced into participating. And Alisa, what would you say we know about the impact of social media then on teenage girls, if that's the kind of thing they're looking for? So the research that's available is quite contradictory. Some studies show quite a close link between using social media and poor mental health,

particularly in teenage girls. We conducted a recent study that looked at nearly 13,000 young people and looked at how they reported their own mental health and well-being and how that related to how much they access social media. And we found there was for both girls and boys a link between those young people who access social media a lot and poorer self-reported mental health as well as life satisfaction, happiness and higher levels of anxiety but the interesting thing about the study we did was we tried to look and see at what might be driving that and particularly in girls we found that a lot of the underlying association

seems to be driven by cyber bullying and being subject to cyber bullying as well as how it impacts on everything else you're doing well as how it impacts on everything else you're doing. So particularly how it impacts on poor sleep, and a little bit on exercise as well. So that social media itself doesn't have to be negative. But the things that it stops you doing otherwise, and what you're accessing and what you're being exposed to, can result in higher levels of mental health concerns and problems in young people. Edwina, I know in the 1990s you were behind the Tesco club card and I wondered how does your experience of kind of spying on people's shopping habits

influence your interest in the behaviour of teenage girls? I think what big data has shaped for me is the idea that measuring what people actually do versus what they say they do is very revealing and once you know the problem you can actually do something about it and so although all my work was until now very commercially orientated this was something that you know really interested me when we were looking at social media. And we always look for the differences in the way people behave. And of course, the opportunity is then to intervene in some way and to say, can that flow be changed in some way

and make that a force for good? And Alisa, I know your interests lie in the way the adolescent brain develops and what might happen if, say, they miss a lot of school. What have you learned about the way they develop socially as their brains develop? So there's now a building area of research looking at social development and social brain development during adolescence. And over the last 15 to 20 years, we have learned a huge amount about the fact that this is a really key period of time for adolescents. So they go from being children very much in the family unit.

And then during adolescence, they work out who they are. They work out how to navigate in a social world. They work out what their own opinions are and how that relates to other people. And this is an amazing period of opportunity for young people to establish who they want to be and to realise how many things there are they could do in the world. But on the flip side, it's also a period of profound vulnerability. And this may be why adolescents in particular are vulnerable to social media and the negative aspects of it, because their emotional development is key and how they associate with their peers and how they fit into the world are vulnerable to social media and the negative aspects of it, because their emotional development is key, and how they associate with their peers and how they fit into the world at this time is crucial. So what are some of the positives of social media that you suspect, even if it's not

yet proven that it can be good? So adolescence is still is a period where you can become anything, where you have so much potential and so much opportunity to look beyond what you've seen within your own family, within your own upbringing. And social media gives you the opportunity to access that in a way that nothing else has done before. So wherever you come from, you have the opportunity to associate with an astronaut, to associate with a singer, but perhaps somebody who's really interested in the singing rather than just the social side of their lives. Whatever you might want to go into,

even if you don't know that person. And we know within my own field of medicine, actually, if you've never met anybody who's a doctor, but you kind of quite like science, you think you might like to do it, potentially social media gives you avenues to connect with people who might be able to open doors like science you think you might like to do it potentially social media gives you avenues to connect with people who might be able to open doors and make that that possibility a reality

so edwina i know you're concentrating on the kind of role models that social media can provide how can you provide the astronaut the doctor the kind of people Anna-Lisa is talking about. Yeah, I think today the way social media works is that the more you consume, the more you get served exactly the same content. And so the campaign that we've devised is called Disrupt Your Feed. So the study we did was to take young girls and to say, we're not going to change what you love consuming, but we're going to introduce up to four new women who may be in the sphere of interest, like science, like saving the planet, like business. And so we introduced just up to four and measured these girls over a period of year to see whether that

had changed their outlook and their belief in their future and their career opportunities. And the research that Dr. Terri Apter did basically showed an absolute link between new feeds that were more in their sphere of interest and an outcome that led them to believe that they could do this. So Annalisa what kind of advice would you give to a parent I know your son because he's here but with his dad very very small so far but to parents with children who are older how can they control this or help them control it? So as I say, our study shows there are definite things that seem to drive some of the mental health problems associated with social media use. So from that, we would think about cyberbullying as a huge issue, particularly for young people. So engage with your children. Children now learn

about safe online use and internet and social media use. So learn what they're learning, make sure you've got things set up to protect them, but also engage with them as to why they're doing it. And then if young people are getting cyber bullied, we know that most of them don't tell adults, they don't tell their parents, and they don't tell other trusted adults. So making sure that your young teenager has got somebody they can talk to, whether that's you or whether that's others. And then thinking about what young people aren't doing because of social media. So good sleep practices, not using Facebook, not using social media in that sort of hour before you go to bed so that you have a safe space and a safe time. And thinking about whether

or not you should be out doing things with real friends and exercising as opposed to just social media. Dr. Annalisa Goodings and Edwina Dunn, thank you both very much indeed for being with us and we'd like to hear from you on this one. How's social media going in your household? How much do you talk to your teenagers about it? You can tweet us or of course you can send us an email. Now, still to come in today's programme, Fuchsia Dunlop cooks the perfect food of Sichuan and the serial episode four of The Citadel. And if you've never listened to The Woman's Hour podcast,

we've got a special new episode for you to listen to, which is only available on BBC Sound. James was joined by the Umean Big C podcaster Deborah James, as well as the writer and activist Scarlett Curtis to listen to five Frank Woman's Hour interviews. It's a mixture of highlights ranging from 91-year-old sex therapist Dr.

Ruth Westheimer to our programme about the risks suffered by black women when they give birth. The baker Nadia Hussain is in the mix as is Gina Martin talking about her experience of upskirting. All you have to do is download the BBC Sounds app. You will find the Woman's Hour podcast on the Hot Podcasts rail, or of course you can just search for Woman's Hour. Now, Emily Doe was the name allocated to an unidentified woman who in 2015 was sexually assaulted on the campus of Stanford University in the United States.

She'd been at a party, she drank too much, and was consistently described as the intoxicated, unconscious woman. Her attacker, Brock Turner, was given a six-month jail sentence, and she read out a victim impact statement in court. It was published by BuzzFeed and read online by more than 11 million people within four days. Well, she's now written a memoir, which she's called Know My Name, and she's revealed that she's not Emily Doe, but Chanel Miller.

She told me why she decided to write about her experience. In the beginning, my main goal was protecting myself, maintaining anonymity, and ensuring that the case didn't overshadow my life. I wanted to keep it living in the corner and to not let it come anywhere close to the center of my being that those things were entirely separate. Only through writing did I slowly begin to incorporate that experience into the rest of my life. And I slowly began to accept this is an incredibly formative part of who you are, something that you will never be able to fully turn away from. So now you must decide how it will continue to inform you and where that experience will live in the context of all the other experiences that you have. And through writing, I can look back now and say, yes, this was definitive in many ways. At the same time, I'm full of so many other

experiences and memories that continue to color who I am. What was it like to have no identity other than Emily Doe, which was the name that you were given, and then intoxicated, unconscious woman? It's truly terrifying because when you're in this windowless courtroom and this identity is sort of repeatedly being beaten into you and you're not allowed to speak freely, you're not allowed to exist as anything else, you truly forget in that context who you are. And when I would leave the courtroom, I'd be completely despondent and I would have no grasp on what I had been wanting to do previously. I couldn't remember why people would like me, what qualities I possessed that were of any value. I genuinely felt stupid and I felt like I was constantly humiliating myself for not being able to testify in a composed manner. It's like wetting your pants repeatedly in public. And then I'd read

the news and it would just say that I cried. They would remind everyone how drunk I was. And alongside that, you know, my assailant's character was being rounded out. And in the trial, you know, he had character witnesses come in and testify, his high school swim coach, his ex-girlfriend, his high school French teacher, all these people were sort of painting him as a full human who deserved to be loved, who had exhibited nothing but upstanding behavior his entire life and didn't deserve to be properly punished. Meanwhile, I disappeared over time and was reduced really by the end to nothing. What was your response when you actually heard his father say, prison with a high price to pay for 20 minutes of action? I was stoic. I had just finished my statement. So hearing his words, I was astounded. It was that feeling of like, did anyone hear me? Did I just read anything? It was

so strange to feel like you can speak and pour your heart out and have it amount to nothing, that people can choose to remain deaf to you. And I write in the book that erasure is a form of oppression. You know, even though I sat with his family in the courtroom, our families were feet apart. And still by the very end, after they had seen photos of my naked body, they refused to even acknowledge my existence. That was really painful. And it's hard to continue telling yourself, I matter, I matter, I matter, because in that context, everything is telling you the opposite. Your victim impact statement was published by BuzzFeed and lots and lots and lots of people read it.

Just remind me the words you used to begin it. You don't know me, but you've been inside me, and that's why we're here today. You know, you had had no memory of the assault at all after it happened. How did you discover what had happened to you? I was sent home from the hospital with the only knowledge that I had been discovered, passed out behind a dumpster. I was never told that any physical contact had been made. So I lived 10 days of silence where I was not contacted by a single person. And one day I go to work and I read in the news about how I was found half naked with one breast out with my necklace tangled around my neck, my hair undone. And this a photo of this man who admitted to digitally penetrating me and denied running away,

who said that I enjoyed it, but at the same time could not describe what I looked like and said he would not be able to pick me out of a lineup. How hard was it to tell your parents and your sister what had happened? I had prided myself in my composure and my self-sufficiency. When I told my parents what happened, it was like something unclipped and everything, I just let it go. I basically collapsed in the living room. My mom held on to me and was just sort of rocking me as I cried and she cried. And you really just need that moment before all the questions start pouring in, before you try and make sense of things, you need to create space just to feel that support and say no matter what this story is, no matter what happens from here on out,

I love you and I'm here and I want you to be safe. Now, you went through the trial and Turner, his family had hired a very expensive lawyer. What helped you keep fighting against his cross-examination? Yeah, there were every force possible was being conjured to keep me silent. There was a blackout expert hired for $10,000 to testify against me. I was terrified and intimidated throughout the process. It felt like this perpetual state of powerlessness where I couldn't properly testify because I had no memory and was constantly being reminded of that. At the same time, you know, the night I was assaulted, I was also saved by the two Swedish graduate students who chased away my assailant, tackled him and pinned him to the ground and made sure that I got medical attention. And even though they were in school, they returned repeatedly to

testify at the preliminary hearing and the trial, they kept showing up because they knew what had happened. They knew right from wrong. And I thought in my head, as long as there are people like that in the world who understand how to treat a person, who understand I deserve better and who want me to be okay, I will keep pulling myself in that direction. And that's what kept me going forward throughout. You have met them, obviously, and spoken to them. Yeah. What was it like to talk to them, the men who'd actually saved you in a way?

Yeah. I kept saying thank you. And they said, you know, the way you're changing the world is thanks enough. They're so selfless and humble and kind. And what's most striking to me is they don't see themselves as heroes to them. They think, well, any human should have done that. Isn't that all of our responsibility? Of course that's wrong. And that clarity is so refreshing and continues to ground me and keep me going. And when they were interviewed and asked how it was to meet me, they said it was like meeting family. Just that

tenderness with which they exist and continue to care about my well-being has really saved me for the last you know four and a half years what was your response when you heard turner had been given six months total humiliation i didn't even understand that that was an option you know i had filed to press charges within 24 hours of my assault, which is the fastest you can do it. And it still took me a year and a half just to get to the sentencing. So I thought, what am I doing here? Why did I bother going through all this for six months, of which he would only serve three. I also think, you know, that's a small amount for three felonies, which he was convicted of for the initial assault,

but that's completely failing to factor in each abuse that came after that. Everything I was forced to endure beyond the assault. And I don't think we process how traumatizing the aftermath of an assault can be, how there are so many layers of damage that continue to accumulate. You say in the memoir that you want to challenge the way victims of sexual assault feel about themselves. How can you do that? After my statement was released, I received multiple letters who said, I wish I had been as brave as you or I didn't do anything. And I watched victims continue to put that burden on themselves to not only blame themselves for the initial attack, but for being inhibited

afterward and not being quote unquote courageous enough to move forward. And I wanted to make it clear to them, this is not about your courage. This is about society's failure to have systems in place where you would feel safe reporting, where you could believe that justice could be achieved. The way it is now, we know that as soon as we speak, we'll be immediately discredited. If you testify, you'll be interrupted. Your character will be attacked. Your safety is at stake. Your whole family will be hurting. Of course, I understand why you would try to continue living your life, try to contain this, because that's what we have been taught to do for so long. So I want them to not carry that burden,

because I understand why it's so difficult to come forward, and it's us as a society who needs to do more for survivors. Now the law has changed as a result of your case, but what about attitudes and opinions? You know, alcohol and the fact that you had been drinking kept coming up and coming up. Is it still unacceptable for a woman to have drunk alcohol at a party. Right. It's such a small way of thinking to me and so outdated as if, if you drink enough, you forfeit bodily autonomy. If you drink enough, he's allowed to do whatever he wants. And that is never, ever the case. I don't care how much you drink. He doesn't get to touch you, really. And I think we still have

an issue wrapping our heads around that or realizing you weren't assaulted because you were drunk. You were assaulted because he assaulted you, because he made that choice. It doesn't take a genius to know that. And yet we still get so caught up in what she was doing and the choices she made rather than what he was doing and the choices he made and we assume that assault is a given that of course it's going to happen and it's your job to know better and to keep yourself safe it shouldn't be a given we should be focusing on the perpetrators realizing that acting on someone, penetrating someone is a choice that is made. We need to revoke the ability to do that. And when it happens, we need to relay punishment to say, no, this is not

an accident or a mistake or a slip up in character. This is deliberate and it's not okay. What has happened to Brock Turner? He served three months in county jail, then three years probation. Now, I have no idea. But, you know, he's on his own trajectory, and I am on mine. And from the very beginning, I refused to be known as a side character in his story, as a stain on his life, as the thing that brought him down, that crushed his dreams. You are responsible for your own actions. And I encourage him to learn, to one day understand what he did, to step out of privilege. Privilege is having to never examine your own actions

or the effect they have on other people. So one day, of course, I hope that for him. But in the meantime, I focus on me, how I want to grow and how I want to use my story to help others. And now you are Chanel Miller and no longer Emily Doe. How soon do you reckon a time might come when being Emily Doe no longer defines you? I think it will always be a process of becoming that I will continue to, you know, fill my life with color to show who I am as a person. You know, before I came forward, I wasn't sure if I would be able to break out of this box that I've been

trapped in for so long. But I thought, if I come out with my name, and I'm still defined by this case, then at least I'll be able to say, look how wrong that is. Look at the way we confine and limit victims. How even when you have every wish to grow and move on, you will always be reminded of how drunk you are. You will could come forward and be liberated. I realized that was an option too. And so far, the latter seems to be happening. The more I speak, the more people see me and understand that I, as every survivor is, is multifaceted, that we have so much to offer, that our lives will go so far beyond the violence that has been inflicted on us. I was talking to Chanel Miller, and when Brock Turner was sentenced,

his crime was not described as rape. But as a result of the case, as I said, the law in California has changed. There's now a mandatory three-year sentence for penetrating an unconscious person or an intoxicated person, and the definition of rape has been expanded to include any kind of penetration. Sichuan cookery. It was not a familiar cuisine in the UK. We were much more used to Chinese restaurants that made Cantonese food. So Fuchsia's work was something of a revelation. She'd studied at the Sichuan Higher Institute of Cuisine, the first Westerner to do so. And she's now published The Food of Sichuan. Fuchsia, how did you come to study at the Sichuan Institute? Well, I was a student at Sichuan University. And while I was there, I became completely infatuated with the local food,

which was more wonderful than any Chinese food I'd ever had before. And a German friend and I heard about this famous cooking school, cycled over there one day and persuaded them to give us some private classes. And then after I'd finished at the university, I went back to say hello to my teachers and they after I'd finished at the university I went back to say hello to my teachers and they said oh Fuchsia we have this professional chef's training course starting how about joining in and I agreed on the spot and they gave me a Chinese cleaver and some chef's whites and that was it. Now we're not actually cooking today but there is a very

beautiful Chinese bowl sitting on a table next to me. And I can't wait for you to just take the lid off and see what is in there. So go on. So this is the Sichuanese Cuanhe. So it's a banquet lacquer box with dragon and phoenix on the cover. And inside there are seven different compartments with seven different dishes, each with a different ingredient and a different flavour. All right's go around i can see some green beans um yeah so that's um edamame beans in a savory stock sauce with sesame oil

the idea with people think that szechuanese food is just spicy but actually from a szechuanese point of view they say each dish has its own style and a hundred dishes have a hundred different flavours. So this is trying to show you something of that variety. The bean is a little bit spicy. Now, there is a theory about why Sichuan has a lot of use of chilli and pepper. Is it because of the climate? It's in the south of China. Yeah, well, according to traditional Chinese medicine, because the climate is very damp and muggy, both winter and summer,

you have to eat plenty of heating foods to drive out this dampness. So originally they had Sichuan pepper and ginger and later the chili. And you've just eaten hóngyó jìsì, which is chicken slivers in chili oil sauce. Well, yes, that's a little bit hotter than the beans. If you'd like something soothing, sweet and sour lotus root,

those little slices there. Now, I noticed when I was looking at your book that there are some very unusual ingredients in the book. I think, what was it? Dried day lily flowers and silver ear fungus that jumped out at me. But how easy is it if you want to cook this kind of food here to find these things? Well, I would say that in every decent Chinese supermarket, and there are more and more of them in this country, you can find the whole array of dried ingredients and seasonings. Fresh ingredients, you have to go to a good Chinatown. But I did try with the book to make a lot of recipes using ingredients you can find in a supermarket

or local butchers or greengrocers using the Sichuanese seasonings. But at the same time, I like to introduce people to some things that are a little unfamiliar and which are so kind of poetic and lovely like the silver ear fungus for example what it what exactly is a silver ear fungus what does it look like a silver ear yeah well it's it's a mushroom i don't know if you know the woodier or cloudier mushroom those sort of frilly black sheets but this one looks like a chrysanthemum with these um translucent pale ivory petals but it's actually a kind of mushroom, and it's often had in sweet soups with a bit of rock sugar and goji berries. Now, as I said, when you first published your book all those years ago,

the first book, it was a real revelation because it was Cantonese food that people associated with China. To what extent is it still Cantonese food that is more common across the country? Oh, I think there's been a revolution. I mean, when my book was published, the first proposal was rejected by six publishers who all said no one would be interested

in a regional Chinese cookbook. And I think if you look now at London and other cities and even smaller towns, you've got Sichuanese restaurants, you've got some Hunan Dongbei, the northeast of China. You've also got Xi'an street food in London now. So I think the idea that, you know, we know Chinese food as some simplified Cantonese cuisine has just been blown out of the water. That lotus flower that I just ate which

was rather crunchy it has a is it a vinegary taste that it's got? Yeah it's a sweet and sour sauce so it's sugar and rice vinegar so that's supposed to be a nice refreshing mouthfeel and taste after the more spicy dishes it was lovely and very refreshing i'm just going to try this other meaty one is this duck no that's beef which has been cooked in a spiced broth and then just tossed with a little dried chili and such on pepper so a little bit tingly maybe yeah not too tingly though it's actually it's delicious food and it's very light as well yeah i mean that's the greatest western misconception of chinese food in general is that it's unhealthy and people often think of chinese food as being lots of deep fried food and lots of salty sweet sauces but actually a good

chinese meal is always a balance of some strong flavours, some delicate flavours and always lots of vegetables. And what's the culture around food in Sichuan? Because I think there are different religions, there's country, there's city. Yeah, I mean, it's a very rich cuisine. So you have all levels. So this, for example, is a banquet set of appetisers. But you've got wonderful country cooking, street food, Buddhist monastery cooking, also halal versions of the local cuisine. But Sichuan also is a tremendously fun and

charming place. I mean, it's always been notorious in China as a very idle, pleasure-loving place, you know, with a wonderful climate and Tianfu Zhiguo, land of plenty, so much good food to to eat and people just love sitting in tea houses playing mahjong and then going out for a stupendous meal in the evening just one other question a recipe called man and wife slices what is that so man and wife meat slices or offal slices literally man and wife lung slices so it was originally a spicy dish of beef offal slices, literally fuchi fei pian, man and wife lung slices. So it was originally a spicy dish of beef offal sliced up and tossed with chili oil and Sichuan pepper and celery and nuts that was sold by a couple on the streets of Chengdu in the 1930s. And they became sort of beloved figures of the street scene. And so it's still known by their name.

And I was talking to Fuchsia Dunlop and tasting some of her incredible food. We had lots of response to the story about the baby who died in a cell in prison. Women in prison got in touch and said excellent interview we must address why so many women are in prison who shouldn't be there. As yet another investigation begins of a death in prison, this time a baby, vital to listen to those working on the ground and act. Dr Shona Minson said, good to hear Deborah Coles, the Director of Inquest, talking about the human rights of women involved with the criminal justice system and the duty on the government to keep women safe in prison. The big question really is why the reports, evidence, expert opinion, recommendations are always ignored.

If these deaths took place in hospitals rather than prisons, there would be real change. We're operating a two-tier system of people who matter and people who don't. Bob said the reason that women are in jail is because they've committed crimes. You can't just say let them out because they're female. And Angela said as a society we repeatedly fail women who we label as bad. This is to their detriment and that of their children, whereas a more therapeutic approach, as advocated by Deborah Coles today, will not only be more humane but also cost-effective. On social media, Richard said, why or why is the electronic or digital media referred to as social? Almost everything that was discussed portrayed it as antiisocial. Referring to it as social immediately legitimises it.

Bullying, hassling and everything else you discussed is all wrong. So no longer social but electronic or digital media please or even antisocial media. And Hugh said myself and my son make use of social media for our sporting activities. We regularly watch and contribute to other clubs' discussions. It's an excellent tool for our members to be informed of what's going on. We had a huge amount of response to my interview with Chanel Miller. Bernardina said, compulsive listening, horribly horribly alarming but her composure dignity delivery

what a woman Rachel Reese said Chanel Miller you are the most courageous and amazing woman thank you for all you stand for and have done for women of serious sexual violence around the world you are incredible

Alison Peel said a moving account so much to learn from this brave woman from the vulnerability of being drunk to the attitude to women by some men some of the time she was taken advantage of then ignored then made to suffer again thank God there are men like the Swedish students who saved her. And Donna Crowe Abagnac said, listening to Woman's Hour and hearing Chanel Miller tell her story, I was so angry at the time of the case. I'm angry now, but I don't hear that in her voice. I hear a call to change conversation about sexual assault. Let's listen to her and change. And Belinda Palmer said,

listening to Chanel Miller, she's one of the strongest, most articulate women I've ever heard. Thank you, Woman's Hour, for sharing her bravery. Rape is never okay. Well, thank you for all your contributions to today's programme and do try and join me tomorrow when I'll be discussing Official Secrets, which is a new film about a woman called Catherine Gunn, who 16 years ago worked at GCHQ, revealed a secret, lost her job and risked losing her liberty. In the film, she's played by Keira Knightley, but I will be talking to Catherine herself. Do join us tomorrow morning if you can. Two minutes past ten. Bye-bye. Hello. I just wanted to tell you about my new podcast. It's called Classical Fix and it's basically me,

Clemmie Burton-Hill, each week talking to a massive music fan. I mix them a classical playlist. They have a listen, they come in, and we just see where the conversation goes. If you like to give classical music a go, but you haven't got a clue where to start, this is where you start. To subscribe, go to BBC Sounds and search for Classical Fix.

Now then, as you were. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.