Woman's Hour - Channel swimmer Chloë McCardel; Prison Ombudsman Sue McAllister; author Laura Dockrill; Afghan girls' education

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

Australian marathon swimmer Chloë McCardel is due to swim the English Channel for the 44th time – this will break the current World Record. Chloe already holds the world record for the longest unassisted ocean swim, which took place in the Bahamas and totalled 124km. She joins Emma to talk about why she loves the Channel in particular, and open water swimming in general.There are rumours that the new government in Afghanistan might allow girls between 13-18 years old to return to school this weekend, but so far Taliban spokesmen have claimed ‘more time’ is needed before making a decision. Emma gets the latest from BBC World Service Reporter Sodaba Haidare and educationalist Pashtana Durrani, who has helped educate hundreds of Afghan women through her non-profit organisation LEARN.Author and podcaster Laura Dockrill speaks to Emma about how her experience of postpartum psychosis three years ago shaped her new book The Dream House, which is about very sad boy called Rex. The National Audit Office has found that years of repeated human errors on outdated IT systems resulted in more than 100,000 people being underpaid a total of £1 billion in state pensions. Most of those affected were women, who are owed an average of nearly £9000. John Chattell's mother Rosemary was underpaid for 20 years, he joins Emma to explain how much money they eventually got back on her behalf.Two years ago a baby at Bronzefield Prison in Surrey died as soon as it was born. When she was giving birth the mother was on her own in a cell. Today a report by the Prison and Probation Ombudsman, Sue McAllister, has come out which is deeply critical of the prison and how it handled the situation. Sue joins Emma.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. What is the place or space that makes you feel joy, a bit better about the world, about your life? Have you found one? How did you find it? Shortly, I'll be talking to Chloe McArdle, a marathon swimmer who, as you may expect, extols the virtues of being in water.

But I'm also going to be talking on today's programme to an author, Laura Dockrell, who's written a children's book about a place that makes a sad child feel better and brighter about the world. Personally, I love being in front of a roaring fire with a whiskey, inside or out, getting my hair full of that smoky smell that you can't then get rid of for the next week. Or anywhere, actually, as long as I'm eating chips. But what about you? Where is it?

Why is it that place? 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email me your place and why through our website. Also on today's programme,

finally, as you've been hearing in the news bulletins, a pensions breakthrough for thousands of women. But is it too little, too late? How can we be sure or have faith it won't happen again? I'll be speaking to the son of a woman who was owed more than £100,000.

And on Monday, I promised an update on the developing school situation in Afghanistan. There are rumours the Taliban may reopen secondary schools to girls, having only reopened to boys last weekend. We'll bring you the latest on that. And I'll be speaking to a female educationist on the ground. But first, in the last couple of minutes, a long-awaited report from the Prison and Probation Ombudsman Service for England and Wales has come out, strongly criticising Bronzefield Prison in Surrey. Two years ago, a female inmate there gave birth on her own in a

cell and the baby died as soon as it was born. The bottom line is that a vulnerable woman who seemed to trust no one gave birth in her cell alone and without help and this should never have happened. Meanwhile another report is due out imminently into another baby who died in prison, this time in style prison. I'm joined now by Sue McAllister, the Prison and Probation Ombudsman. Good morning. Good morning. How on earth did this happen? Well, you're absolutely right. This should never have happened. This was a shocking case

and it was completely unacceptable for a vulnerable young woman to give birth in her cell on her own with no access to pain relief or any support from staff. We found in our investigation that a number of things were wrong. The midwifery model that was in place at Bronzefield just wasn't fit for purpose. It wasn't suitable for women who were like Ms A, as we've called her in our report, vulnerable, who were refusing to engage with midwifery services, who were frightened, who were terrified that the baby was going to be taken away from her, who refused to have a scan.

None of those things were addressed by the midwives. We found the midwifery service to be unimaginative and inflexible. And we also found that some staff just didn't do what they were supposed to do. They didn't answer the cell call bell when Miss A called for help twice on the evening before she gave birth. So there were lots of things that we found were wrong, both systemic and down to the actions or the failings of individuals. Let's come to the sort of health side of it in a moment, because I think that's very important to unpick. You say that staff didn't pick up her calls. She did ask for a nurse as well, and apparently no nurse was called.

Is that a case of staff, you've been a governor of a prison, being unsympathetic, incompetent or both? In our investigation, we found that this young woman twice pressed her cell call bell to ask for a nurse. On the first occasion, the member of staff who answered the cell call bell passed it to another member of staff who when we interviewed him couldn't remember the conversation that he'd had but the consequence was that no nurse was called. The young woman called a second time and the cell call was ignored on the wing and the call went through to the control room where it was cancelled and it wasn't answered. So twice this young woman

who must have been very, very frightened at the time and in a lot of pain, didn't get a response to her request. Now in our investigation we find what we find. So we found that these particular individuals didn't do what they should have done. But we do know that when the Chief Inspector of Pr inspected Bronsfield in 2018 they found that there was a poor response to cell call bells in the prison so we have to think that there is something going wrong in the culture of the prison where cell call bells are not answered promptly and people don't get the help that they need. She calls, she calls again, as you say, and then that was it. They came in the morning, and they found blood in the cell,

and a baby that had to be attempted to be resuscitated. What we know is that after the second time of calling and not getting any help, she was in so much pain, and she was in the toilet part of her cell. She couldn't get to the cell call bell to call again, which is absolutely shocking. She was in so much pain that she couldn't move to press the bell. Has anyone been fired from this prison? The members of staff concerned, we say in our report, that the members of staff concerned were immediately removed from frontline

duties. So they were removed from duties where they were in direct contact with prisoners. And one of our recommendations is that an internal disciplinary investigation should be carried out with a view to identifying whether and what disciplinary action would be appropriate. You're late to doing this report for reasons we'll get to in just a moment. This happened in 2019. You're telling me there hasn't been an internal disciplinary action? Yes, I'm saying that as far as we're aware, because all we can recommend is that an internal investigation be carried out.

No, no, I recognise that. But to your knowledge, you've done an investigation, your officers, there hasn't been one. That's correct. To my knowledge, there hasn't been one. How is a prison... You've run a prison. If you had this happen in your prison... We've got a statement here, you know, and I always have to make sure I read the statements,

but in this statement from Vicky Robinson, the director of HMP Bronzefield, we've got, this was a tragic and extremely sad. Nothing we can say or do will change that. We're deeply sorry this happened. Our thoughts have been throughout with the family. In the report, a number of recommendations have been made, and we're absolutely dedicated to working closely with all agencies to address these

and ensure the actions that need to be taken have been taken. But they haven't even done an internal disciplinary action or investigation themselves. I share your concern that often when we make recommendations, and those recommendations are accepted, we don't see the necessary action and we don't see it happening swiftly enough. That is a concern. But this isn't even about you making the recommendations. You've been a governor. Why has a governor, I recognise they're not here to talk for themselves or a director, whatever they're now called. Why isn't that the first thing you do when a dead baby's

been found on your premises and a woman has been put in that situation? Well, I think you're right. You would have to ask the person concerned. As I've said, they did remove the people from frontline duties and they may well feel that that was an appropriate action pending the publication of our report, but you would have to ask them or the company that they work for. But am I right in saying there have been 10 other inquiries into what's happened? There have been other, not the ombudsman, but there have been looked at the various aspects of this because there are many agencies. Well, certainly many agencies were involved in our investigation. So we worked with the NHS and we worked with social services. But

yes, there were a number of other investigations, including a police investigation into this. It was a very complex case and there were lots of agencies involved. Anybody been charged? No. So no charge and nobody's lost a job? That's correct. Is that right? It wouldn't be appropriate and it actually potentially would jeopardise a disciplinary investigation were I to comment on what I thought the consequences would be. We feel frustrated sometimes that all we can do is recommend

that a disciplinary investigation take place and then it is a matter for both the prison service and in this case Sodexo, the private company that runs Bronzefield. So you are toothless as an ombudsman? how frustrated we feel that we make recommendations, those recommendations are accepted, and we don't always or don't often see the changes as a result of those recommendations. You've got a new Justice Secretary, you've got Dominic Raab now. Is he going to make any changes, do you think? Does it give you any power? I know you'll be leaving this role potentially soon. One of the things that we've said for some time,

my predecessors have said it as well, is that we should be placed on a statutory footing. That still wouldn't give us the teeth that we would need to force people to do what we tell them they should do. I mean, that just isn't how independent scrutiny works. our job is to investigate, to report what we find and then it is the responsibility of the services in remit in this case the prison service to do what we say they should do. The Deputy Prime Minister and Justice Secretary in the new one, Dominic Raab, has in this statement said these events are harrowing, unacceptable

should never happen to any woman or child my deepest condolences remain with those affected we've already implemented the recommendation in the Prison and Probation Ombudsman's report. We've put in place important improvements to the care received by women in custody and across government. We should make sure expectant mothers in prison get the same support as those in the community. People may be surprised to learn, is it right, there's 26 pregnant women in prison per week? I believe that's the figure that we're at at the moment. Just to ask then about the provision of care, you talk about midwives being inflexible. Who is responsible for ensuring that pregnant women in prison can give birth safely? The NHS provide all healthcare in prisons,

including midwifery care and including midwifery care in Bronzefield. So it is the responsibility of the NHS to provide midwifery care. And what we see is that there isn't enough joined-up work between the NHS who provide midwives and the prison service staff, in this case Sodexo staff. We've commented in our report that the best model we see is a trauma-informed model where organisations work together and they work with women. Women are part of making decisions about their care. So we didn't see any of that in this investigation. We saw fractured care, we saw poor communication and the result of it was this

tragic event. It's just it's quite a confusing statement we've got from the NHS. They send sincere condolences to Ms A, as you've called it in the report, on the loss of her baby. The NHS has since taken over the healthcare budget for maternity services at HMP Bronzefield. And again, you'll hear this repeated, already taken action on the recommendations in this report to improve the support provided to pregnant women and their babies. It has since taken over the healthcare budget. So who was in charge when this woman found herself in this situation? Well, interestingly and worryingly, our investigation couldn't get to the bottom of who was responsible for commissioning services and how the budget was managed. And worryingly, we found that there were no real governance arrangements to manage the midwifery service in Bronzefield. So it was a bit of a model,

which meant that nobody was determining and deciding what needed to be provided. And also nobody was looking at was it being provided properly? Was it good enough? Clearly, we found that it wasn't good enough. It wasn't fit for purpose. It was a model that was based on what midwifery looks like in the community, which is very, very different to what needs to be provided in a prison. So when we saw the statement you've just referred to, which says that the NHS have now taken it over, at least that may mean that there's more clarity, but we certainly didn't find clarity when we investigated. When you were in charge of prisons whose job was it to ensure

that the NHS provision of care was in place? Well when I was governing prisons it was very different and we had what were called primary care trusts so the head of the primary care trust would be responsible for delivering a commissioned service and monitoring how well it was it was delivered. What should happen now is that the director of health and justice in NHS England and the people who work at a regional level should be monitoring and regulating how healthcare is delivered in prisons. So it's the healthcare side need to have ensure that that relationship is with the prisons? Yes, it's the NHS. So this is a failing of the NHS? The provision of midwifery. Yes, to this. You found that there was no formal connection here to link up this prison with the skills needed to deal with anyone who should be pregnant

who was in a cell. Absolutely. And that's why the recommendations that we've made, which refer to that, have been made to NHS England and to the director. So that's the failing of the NHS. And then there's the failing on the prison side. Who asked you to investigate this? We were asked by the Secretary of State because currently it's not in our remit to investigate the deaths of babies. It's in your remit to investigate the deaths of babies. It's in your remit to investigate the deaths of inmates? It's in our remit to investigate the deaths of adults held in state detention and young people held in state detention but clearly a baby doesn't fall into that category. Since we've carried out this investigation we are making changes to our terms of reference so that it

will be in our remit which means we will then always be informed when a baby dies and we will always carry out an investigation. So this woman was in a prison where people were not answering the cell bell. There was no provision. They knew she was pregnant, they didn't know her due date, but there was no provision from the NHS for the delivery of that baby necessarily.

And we had an ombudsman that didn't have a responsibility to look at the situation that did arise which was a dead baby. That's correct. How on earth are we in that situation? Well I think until we came into the picture and until we've added this to our terms of reference, those deaths would have been investigated within the NHS in exactly the the knowledge and the experience to understand the operating environment and the specific context of prisons so it's good news that we are putting this into our terms of reference but of course we hope that we'll never have to use it we hope that there'll never be a repeat death in prison of a baby. The Justice Secretary was Robert Buckland so is that who you were talking about when you were asked to do that? It was Robert Buckland that asked us to carry out this investigation outside of our terms of reference yes. Has he failed, has the office failed the prison service?

Is this broken because we've got messages saying how angry and sad furious that people are listening to this. Well, I think it's very clear that the Secretary of State, in asking us to carry out the investigation, was concerned about the fact that this had happened. But he's the ultimate governor. I mean, he's the ultimate one in charge of this. Well, he asked us to carry out this investigation. I mean, he cannot be described as being not interested in this because at every stage during this investigation, and as you say, it's taken a long time for us to get to this publication date. He asked for regular updates. And I am absolutely clear that had he remained in post,

he would have been talking to me today about what needed to happen to make sure that the recommendations were progressed and implemented. Have you spoken to Dominic Raab since he took office? No. But I have spoken to the new minister. And she asked for a comprehensive briefing on this. And we will be talking again about how we make sure that these recommendations are not ignored and that we do see change as a result.

You've been in this line of work and were part of the prison service, I believe it's 35 years to the day since you joined. There's a message here, it's outrageous. Prison officers involved should be sacked and prevented from ever working with prisoners again, those ones who did not answer this woman's cell bell. Do you agree with that? I know you don't want to

prejudge a disciplinary, but there hasn't even been a disciplinary investigation. Could I ask for your opinion on that, having worked in the service? This was absolutely shocking. The failure of those members of staff to respond to cries for help were absolutely shocking. And we've made that clear in our report. And I'm not evading the question, but I would hate to jeopardise a disciplinary investigation and any subsequent disciplinary action by suggesting what the outcome of that might be. Due process has to be allowed to take its course. But it hasn't. I mean, OK, could you could you answer this? Is it outrageous that there hasn't been an investigation? I think it's it's very disappointing that it hasn't taken place until now.

There is no reason why it couldn't take place in much, much quicker time than it has. I would agree with you. Well, it's a question to get to get a sense from you and that just finally I know that your investigators did speak to the woman do you know how she is now? Our investigator our lead investigator spent a lot of time with this young woman and it was really really important that that her voice was heard as part of this investigation. So she met her on several occasions and spent time with her. She's no longer in custody. So our ability to continue to monitor her is very, very limited.

But we do have contact with her solicitor. And we know that she is being supported by her solicitor and by other people. So she's a very, very vulnerable young woman and will continue to be so. And we're coming up to the two year anniversary of the death of the baby, which will be a very, very difficult time for her. So we hope that she has been well supported at this very, very difficult time. Thank you for coming on. Sue McAllister, the Prison and Probation Ombudsman for England and Wales. And I should say, the minister mentioned

that also newly in post for the government is Victoria Atkins. And we did invite her onto the programme as well, but she was not available. And we got that statement instead from the new Justice Secretary. Now, you've been getting in touch, not just with what you've just been hearing,

but also to talk about the world that we live in and how to try and feel a bit better about it. If that doesn't sound as glib as I hope it doesn't, but also it may even sound more necessary after that sort of conversation and how you found some peace. A message come in here. My favourite place is my allotment. I'm at my happiest with my bare hands in the soil, listening to birds whilst growing and grazing at my own grown produce. It's heaven. Another one, I love dancing in a crowd of enthusiastic techno fans in giant warehouses. That's my happy and safe space. And this particular one from Charlotte will be music to the ears of my next guest.

My new happy place, open water swimming lake in Nottinghamshire. A bit cliche for 2021. There's lots of people getting into open swimming, but the sky, the clouds, the water. Well, the Australian marathon swimmer Chloe McArdle is due to swim the English Channel for the 44th time. This will break the current world record, currently held at 43, and Chloe already holds the world record for the longest unassisted ocean swim which took place in the Bahamas and totaled 124 kilometres. If that wasn't enough, she also undertook a non-stop triple crossing of the English Channel in 2015,

which involved just under 37 hours of swimming. I'm tired after even reading that. Congratulations, Chloe. What drives you to do this? Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me on. Well, when I was 19, I decided I

wanted to be the best in the world at something. And as a teenager, I was a competitive swimmer in the pool. And so I tried triathlon for two and a half years and didn't quite get to the next level, ran a marathon, swam a marathon. And when I swam that marathon, I realized that I had the potential to be the best in the world at that. And it was it was that journey that kick-started this um incredible last 15 years. Why um do you want to do this I mean you want to break a world record but why 44 times doing this I mean what what's what's driving that because that's very specific in terms of a particular goal? Well I started off wanting to be the best in the world at something got into marathon swimming and i've just been chasing the biggest goals in marathon

swimming and i've been ticking them off along the way and the english channel is the mecca of open water swimming in the world sometimes it's hard for british people to know that because you're it's right at your back door and people just jump on the ferry and go to Europe. But for people around the world, open water swimmers specifically, it's like the birthplace of marathon swimming. The best swimmers since 1875, which is the year that Captain Matthew Webb was the first person to swim at Swamit. We have been looking at this patch of water and we've been coming here.

We're drawn to the difficulties, the cold, the waves, swimming through shipping lanes. It really is the hardest marathon swim in the world. Sounds delightful. Yes. No, go on. I'd do anything to avoid getting in there, but you're the opposite. And I think hearing that history and how it can be viewed,

especially from your perspective coming from Australia, is fascinating. The other thing, because I was looking at your Instagram account this morning and some clips of you, I'm happy to report you seem to eat a lot of cake when you get back on dry land. But I was thinking, what do you think about while you're swimming? Well, there is a lot of time to spend while swimming. It took me nearly 11 hours yesterday on my 42nd crossing. Various things at various times. So sometimes I might do like a to-do list.

If it's a really tough swim, then I'm just wanting to get to the other end. And one of the techniques I use is to visualize my successful finish. So I take myself forward in time. What does it look like? What does it sound like? What does it look like what does it sound like what does it taste like and that and then have that emotional experience of relief and joy finally finishing and looking back over the horizon of the English Channel when I finish so various things at various times I try and enjoy the

beautiful moments yesterday was an amazing sunrise there was this deep orangey red just piercing the horizon and I try and really take a moment and just be in the moment there be present and enjoy that experience because very few people will ever get a chance to swim the English Channel so I try and not take it for granted and enjoy those wonderful beautiful moments as well and you want to spread this I know that you're you're a mentor and a coach you're keen to encourage women and girls in particular into this and into swimming, you know, whether it's not necessarily breaking records, but just getting out there. What do you think it does for people? Why do you want more people to have this experience?

Well, I and many others feel that swimming is a very liberating experience. Swimming in the pool is great. But swimming in the wild, the open doors where it's a lake, river, pond, or the ocean, it really takes things to a whole new level because you're connected to nature. You don't confine by rules like you are on land, like stay in your lane when you're driving or stay in the left of a lane if you're swimming in the pool. You can get out and really be free and have the water support you and be nurtured by that water and push your limits, whether that's 100 meters is enough for you on that day or two kilometers or for me to

swim to France, especially that the biggest swims as you start moving along on your swimming journey and set bigger goals, you can have senses of empowerment and achievement and moving through tough times and building a resilience and confidence as you enter swimming events. And there are lots of events out there in England, like one-kilometre swims, two-kilometre swims or one-mile swims. You don't have to swim the English Channel. And in fact, you can swim the English Channel in a relay. So there's lots of ways people can connect with open water, just recreationally, or if they want to start challenging themselves further, they can even enter events. It's an amazing sport. I did suggest to the producers here at Woman's Hour,

we do a Woman's Hour relay on the team of the English Channel, having just learnt about this from you. It's safe to say the reaction was mixed, not least from me. But let me just ask you, in terms of when you're actually going to do this, we hope, you hope, you're going to do this for the 44th time across the English Channel. When's that? Have you got a date? I don't have a date because it's based on various factors we need the wind to go down and the weather in the English Channel is very fickle there's a queue system so I'm not top priority I have to wait for other people to get a chance they're waiting on

the wind and I'm waiting on them so I think the 44th swim will be the week of the 5th of October. I'm pretty sure about that, but I can't say what exact day it'll be. And if you manage to do it, how are you going to celebrate? Away from water. I know your happy place is there, but is there something else you like to do? Well, as you can see, I like to eat cake. Sometimes I dream about all the yummy food I can have when I'm swimming. When I get out, I'm going to eat cake. Sometimes I dream about all the yummy food I can have when I'm swimming. When I get out, I'm going to have cake.

I'm definitely going to have a little party because there have been people in the UK who have been super supportive of me over the 12 years I've been coming here. So when I get back on land, the first thing I'll be like, let's organise this party because I have so many people to thank. The last three years I've been travelling to England by myself. I live in Australia. It's a very long way away.

And to have local people here on the ground supporting me is just amazing to have that. So I'll be inviting them over to a little party. A little party. I just want a very quick reaction if I can. The sports body, I don't know if you've seen this, Swim England, has warned 2,000 swimming pools could close by 2030 because of funding pressures on local authorities.

And it's actually described the future of swimming facilities as terrifying. Existing problems have been exacerbated by the financial pressures of the pandemic. That is something that a lot of people will be concerned about if they don't have somewhere local to swim. Yes, because swimming is so good for emotional and mental well-being, for physical health, and also it helps reduce drowning statistics if people are learning how to swim and can practice swimming in safe spaces. Not everyone can access open water swimming,

so swimming pools are very safe places for people to practice. So as someone who really espouses the benefits of swimming on many levels, that is very concerning for me as well. All the best, Chloe, for your open water swim there. The record, you'll become the world record holder, you hope, and we'll hope to hear about it. Chloe McArdle, thank you. Messages also coming in about swimming and what it does for you

and where your happy places are. But away from that, dry land, a message here. Today, my happy place is my kitchen for the first time since march 2020 i am alone in my house not at work children at school husband traveling for work again it's bliss still in my pjs sipping coffee and hanging up the laundry heaven haven't got your name but i'm very happy it's a pleasure to be in your ears this morning whoever you are that you're having that morning and thank you for sharing it with us. Another one here.

Having spent, hi Emma, the last 18 months feeling mostly miserable, I finally got back on stage last night with my band in a sparkly gold jacket, exclamation mark, playing my original music for an appreciative audience. That is what makes me feel better and reminds me where my happy place is.

That's from Holly who's listening. Good morning to you. A lot of people might not have been able to access what has been a happy place and that's a very good reminder of it for the last 18 months or so. Keep those messages coming in 84844 or get in touch on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Now I mentioned a pension breakthrough. The government spending watchdogs found that years of repeated human errors on an outdated IT systems resulted in more than 100,000 people being underpaid a total of a billion pounds in state pensions. The National Audit Office says most of those affected were women who are owed an average of nearly £9,000

each. The Department for Work and Pensions says it's committed to correcting the errors and making sure they aren't repeated. The problem relates to the old state pension system where married women who had a poor pension in their own right could claim 60% basic state pension based on their husband's record of contributions. For two decades, Rosemary Chattel from Cheshire was underpaid. Widowed in 1999, she should have automatically got a proportion of her husband's pension when he died. But it was her son, John Chattel, who first suspected something was wrong and something quite big was wrong.

John, good morning. Hi, good morning. Hi. What led you to think something might be wrong? Well, looking back, mum's obviously in a nursing home now but I was looking at affairs back about um January 2020 and I always thought her pension seemed quite low she was getting about 77 pounds a week and I was comparing it to my mother mother-in-law's pension was about 140 uh considering the very similar backgrounds you know family people etc kids I thought they should probably be the same so I rang up the DWP

and I tried two or three times I could I kind of got announced that it seemed right but I wasn't so happy with it it didn't seem right to me so we were driving to Manchester one day and I thought I'll give one more go my wife said just give another try I got a bit fed up with it to be honest with you and I got through to someone's really helpful and she and she said she'd look into it and come back to me. And I thought she probably won't, but she did. She rang back about two days later and said, basically, are you sitting down? I said, well, I'm driving.

Why? She said, well, you might need to pull over because I've got a big surprise for you. So I thought she'd probably say, mum was owed 10, 15 grand, you know, the sort of thing you think about. Anyway, she said it's £107,851. My goodness.

Extraordinary. Extraordinary. So we did stop the car after that, to think about it for a minute. Basically what it was, the old man died in 1999. And what you were saying before about the accrual of his pension proportionate should have gone to mother, and never did. So she's underpaid for 20 years. So they worked back in a huge spreadsheet that we got from them to be fair.

All the payments she should have got and what the interest rates were at the time. It's a big calculation to pay this money back to her, which is extraordinary. And I also know that you were in a situation where you realised, or were made to realise, that you were owed interest on on that or rather she was owed interest on that as well. Yeah, that's right. After we found out the amount, a friend of mine, an investment guy, had heard about some work that Steve Webb, or Sir Steve Webb he is now, was doing on pensions. And so we contacted him. We should say the former minister has been on Women's Hour many a time. Yeah, that's right.

He was on the news waves, on the news airwaves this morning on the Today programme. Carry on. Yeah. So we spoke to him. He's really, really helpful. He said what you're saying. Yeah, you should get interest on that because what you could have done with the money, had you had it, invested it or whatever.

So we applied for interest and got another nine and a half thousand on top as interest. Did your mum know? Was she well enough to know? No, I don't think so. But I didn't check a long time ago. I've only got really involved with affairs. She's got dementia now. And I took power of attorney quite a long time ago.

But I just presumed her pension was her pension and never thought what an old age pension would be until I've retired myself. You come to get to understand a bit more about it. And I just thought it just seemed so low but you know she wouldn't have a clue I mean I'm gonna see her tomorrow in the nursing home but she doesn't know who I am or where she is you know she's got severe dementia now I mean is that sort of you know bittersweet in a way that you know because she

she could have had more money when she was well that's right yeah to make choices to do things etc i mean you know she's she's had a good life that's that's to be fair she has but yeah every little more help some of the care costs now she's been in uh two different camps since 2011 i mean it's over a grand a week you know it's a huge amount of money going out so that's what is that what the money has been used for yeah we put into her pot basically and that's what we will we if we get to that stage we'd have to use that yeah and in terms of this story today then you know what's your reaction to that having been a family that that managed to realize this and get what was owed there'll be so many waking up today feeling that maybe they now finally either on behalf of

someone or themselves will be be able to get that. But there'll also be a lot of anger out there and a lot of frustration. Yeah, I think so. Because the first thing I thought as soon as we heard what mothers owed, my first thought was, well, there are other people owed. That was my first thinking, you know. And that's the bad thing about it. Because I think I heard from Steve saying this morning, am I right, certain government records have been destroyed now and people after four years after they've died yes there's a concern so how do you dig back if you haven't got any proof i don't know but um i don't know how that works there'll be there'll be advice and there'll be links i'm sure uh to to how people can do this but it's also important that you you know you realize it in the very first place and and then go and try and start making those calls

and of course there's the hope that it's it's made easy for people who are owed the money. Just to final, what's your mum's name? How old is she now? Rosemary, all known as Rosie. She's 98 this year. 98, well. We keep thinking she survived COVID. We think she's hanging out for a telegram from the Queen. It sounds like she is, and in very good hands with you, John. John, thank you very much

for coming to talk to us. OK. John Chattel there on behalf of his mother and what's going on with the pension side of things. Of course, if you have a story on that,

I'm all ears. Your messages are coming in still about your happy place. Another one here, my happy place. It's a lot about music and dancing, which I'm loving.

I don't think we dance enough or there aren't that many opportunities to, are there, when you get a bit older or perhaps away from the clubs. My Happy Place. I've always been into Northern soul music since the age of 14. I'm 59 now. My safe place is on a Northern soul dance floor surrounded by others dancing, spinning, clapping and singing. The music fills my heart and soul like no other. That's Carolyn who's listening in Worcester this morning. And another one here, though, I used to be happiest when and singing the music fills my heart and soul like no other that's carolyn who's listening in worcester this morning and another one here though i used to be happiest when dancing chronic

illness me has taken that so i've regrouped and re-evaluated my safe happy place is now my home it's not much not grand but i love and value it and that's from joanne who's listening in north lincolnshire good morning to you keep those messages coming in. But an update was promised on Afghanistan and what's happening to women and girls there because most women and girls have been told to stay at home since the Taliban seized power last month, officially or unofficially in terms of what they've been told. Over the weekend just gone, secondary schools reopened for boys but not girls. There are rumours that this weekend, this Saturday, that the government might allow girls between 13 and 18 years old to return to school.

But so far, Taliban spokesmen have claimed more time is needed before making a decision. Well, the BBC World Service reporter, Soda Bar Haidari, is joining me now to give us an update. And I can also speak to Pashtana Durrani, who's in hiding from the Taliban, but before this had been helping educate hundreds of Afghan women

through her non-profit organisation, Learn. Soda Bar, to come to you first, what do we know about the likelihood of this announcement this weekend about secondary schools? Hello, Emma. It's all very unclear from when the Taliban took Afghanistan.

They were saying that we've changed, that we will let girls go to school and let women go back to work. They are seeking international legitimacy, so they would be saying all the right words, since the attention of the media is on them and the international community is watching to see what their next steps will be. But girls have been staying at home since the day they took over Afghanistan. They've been told not to go to school. And as you mentioned, last weekend, secondary schools were open for boys and male teachers, but not for girls. And they've been keep saying that they need more time, they need more time. But frankly, girls and women in Afghanistan are running out of time, because they need to go back to school, they need to get back to education. In the 90s, girls were behind for years, because they were denied an education.

And now this rumoured announcement that they will let girls go back to school, they have been doing a lot of talking. And they've been saying that there are procedures in place that we need to protect girls in terms of we need to think about their safety before allowing them to go back to school. But what that really means in practice, it's really unclear when they say we need to protect their safety, what do they really mean? And there have been no women or girls involved in these talks and there has been a lack of communication which is why we've been seeing women having to protest in streets to get their voices heard.

So we'll really have to wait and see what that really means in terms of who will let girls go back to school. I was just going to say, any insight into international pressure having an effect? Do the Taliban still care? I think they do, because they have said that they don't want to be a pariah like they were in the 90s, right? That they very much, what they're focusing on very much at the moment is international aid. And international community is waiting for the Taliban to give girls and women their rights before they can say, right, okay, we can help you with the economy, we can help you with humanitarian aid, for example. And so they very much need the international community to be on their side, they need their neighbours to be on their side. So they have to do the right things if they don't allow girls and women to go back to school. And women of now are not the women of the 90s. We've been seeing them raise

their voices. We've been seeing them really active on social media, on the streets of Afghanistan protesting. And if they are not given their rights, they will demand it. They will take it. So yes, the Taliban are very much wanting to be recognised by the international community. So they have to do the right things. But whether they will or not, we'll have to wait and see. It's still very early days. Pashtana Durrani, let me bring you in at this point. Thank you for joining us today. How are you feeling?

What is your confidence like about girls being allowed back into secondary school? Thank you for having me. When it comes to girls education, every time when we talk about it, it's so politicized that at this point, I'm going to be honest. I don't feel very confident about anything that comes along girls way because you are literally waging a war against girls aged 12 to 18 just because you feel like it right and your only problem is with their education i because when you look at it uh from a like you know from a perspective of a foreigner you would think okay they are letting girls go to school from grade one to grade six and they're letting women in post high school go and pursue their education why wouldn't they let go of this like you know class seven to cluster why wouldn't they uh

permit that here's the reason because they are hoping that the girls who are already enrolled in universities they'll graduate in the next three to one year and once they are done you won't have any girls from high school to enroll in universities. And then it becomes one gender only. And until grade six, it's just to get that attention or aid or whatever that you are depending on. So I wouldn't feel so confident. But at the same time, I have to be hopelessly hopeful because at the end of the day, that's my only choice. I don't have any other choice. How are you doing at the moment? Because we've spoken a couple of times during this?

My classes started yesterday so we are taking our classes online and every time I go and I start my class I just think to myself we're studying political science and would it even be recognized by the government you know the government that is right now in power? Would we be able to work? Like, of course, as a woman, as a person who has run an NGO, I have those prospects to continue my work from wherever I want. But then there are a lot of other women who don't have the same platform, who don't have the same prospects.

Sorry, when you say your class, are you being taught or you are still doing lessons? Oh no, I am being taught. I am a senior at the American University of Afghanistan. So you're still able at the moment to receive some education online? Yes, online.

And in terms of your day-to-day life at the moment, we're hearing mixed reports about how women are having to dress. I mean, I'm not in any way wanting to disclose where you are at the moment and women are having to live their lives. We also heard reports that in Kabul, government workers, female government workers were told not to come back to their jobs unless a man couldn't fill their role. What is it like for you and your female friends at the moment? I cannot disclose more than the fact that I haven't been out in a few weeks from my own house. So, yeah, I won't be able to disclose more than that.

No, no, no, of course not. But talking more generally and not about you, is that because women are being told they can't go out or they're scared to go out, do you think? Both, both. I'm going to talk about Kandar. Our teachers that are supposed to be going to school, they are too scared to go to school because, A, on one side,

they are told to go and teach to class seven, and then, B, on the other side, you're harassed for doing so. You see, these are the mixed feelings. There are children that I mixed feelings there are children that i know that there are girls that i know and my staff members keep on telling me that i don't want to send my niece to the school what if she's attacked and the the weird part is that the girl doesn't want to go to school she's too scared to go to school she's too scared to continue her education because the uniform right now is illegal, but human rights abuses are not.

Can you see the irony in Afghanistan right now? Yes, yes, yes, yes, I can. And I just, I suppose, I wonder, in terms of you not knowing what will happen to girls' education, if the education, let's say the schools do reopen, the secondary schools do reopen to girls, are you concerned about what they will be taught? Oh, yeah, definitely. open the secondary schools do reopen to girls are you concerned about what they will be taught oh yeah definitely i mean like it's like you know let me tell you the whole thing they're using girls education as a milking cow from the international community to do whatever to get whatever they want uh first of all they want to eat they want to unfreeze the afghan money

which is not theirs for for for a first to understand but they want to unfreeze the afghan money which is not theirs for for for first to understand but they want that because they are in power and they can do whatever they want so they're using afghan girls education to make it a bargaining chip and make sure that they get an international legitimacy they get their assets unfrozen and at the same time they get that um recognition and aid coming in and nobody will hold them accountable there won't be any transparency so it goes for this it's like you know they're using it they're politicizing it to every mean that they can get and that's why i'm concerned about it okay today you're using it for aid and legitimacy and everything else tomorrow you will again close down the schools and there

won't be any mechanism to roll back on like you know when once you're legitimized once you have the aid money once you get when you once your assets are unfrozen what then what what if they close down the schools let's say they keep the schools open what about the subjects that are there are taught what about history we in history and sudaba probably would know about it in history we have all these amazing women, for example, Queen Suraya, Gauharshad Begum, Zarghuna Ana, Nazo Ana, all these women, amazing poets, warriors, and queens, and education ministers and health ministers.

And what about them? What if they are removed from the history of Afghanistan? Because that's what they are trying to do. That's what they are censoring right now. And we are not yet sure what sort of education they are looking forward to, because at the moment, women in STEM are discouraged, women in public administration are discouraged. And those are two important things to sustain a country. All that sort of things, of course, concerns me. What are they going to teach? How are they going to teach it? Would they have experts on it? How are they going to move forward with it? You know, things like that. Pashtana Durrani, thank you very much for talking to us today. Soda Bahadiri, final word from you, our BBC World Service reporter. Is it hard to get information at the moment, just to actually update everybody on what's going on the

world and what's going on in afghanistan i mean a lot of the people in afghanistan are um are scared to talk to the media so yes we've been uh doing interviews with people who want to remain anonymous because of the consequences of what might happen to them if they if they talk to the media or criticize the taliban but i've been speaking to women a lot and they have been messaging me privately. They've been DMing me on Twitter. And so that's sort of one way of getting information from what's really going on in the country. But a lot of these women are in hiding. So it's very difficult to judge what's going on outside.

Which we could just hear from Pashtana as well, very careful and clear not to try and locate where she is. But also, it's very important to hear that somebody like Pashtana has not been able to go out for the last few weeks out of a mixture of fear and also what's going on in the country in terms of what's being said by government officials or not being said. Soda Bar Haidari, thank you very much for your reports and insights there. And of course, we will keep you up to date on more information from Afghanistan with particular focus, of course, here on Women's Hour and what's happening to women and girls. Now, thank you so much for your messages throughout today's programme

about your happy place or places that make you feel safer and make you feel better. Jane says, I'm at my happy place now, warping up my loom for a bright pink scarf. The house is full of workmen doing the new heating and I'm in my weaving room with Radio 4 on. What an amazing thing to hear about where you're actually listening to this. And often you're in your happy place, which is very nice to know we're part of that with you. My happy place is my garden shed. It's basic. But in the early evening with a glass of wine in hand, a book on my lap and the sun pouring in, it is bliss. Well, my next guest wanted to write about a happy place

from the point of view of a child going through a tough time. We know the number of children going into A&E with serious mental health problems in England has jumped up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic and services to refer them on to across the UK are stretched. But how do we talk to children about their feelings and work out what's normal sadness, if I can put it like that, and when a child might need help? Laura Dockrell began writing her new children's book,

The Dream House, before her own experience of postpartum psychosis three years ago. It's illustrated by Glenn Millward and it's the diary and sketchbook of a sad boy called Rex. And Laura, welcome to the programme. I thought we'd start with Rex and find out why is he so sad at the moment? So Rex is going through the grief of his father losing his dad.

And I guess I wanted to give some space and hold some time for that. I should say from the beginning, I've never experienced grief in the way Rex has firsthand. So this actually story is a kind of story looking in from an empathetic story of kindness and friendship and recovery. Well, and I was going to say, but what the Dreamhouse does relate to in your life is, I believe, is modelled on one of your happy places in your childhood. Yeah, absolutely. Tell us about the dream house and what it means to Rex. So my dad had two best friends growing up as a kid

and my parents were punks. I was the first kid brought up amongst them, so I really saw them all as like my kind of adults in general. And one of them, Chrissie Wardy, had an old... He built us a dream house in the back of his garden in Kew you know we grew up in a little small flat in Brixton where so this just felt like this space of wilderness and endless kind of bliss and it was so wild and free I'd never known anything like it and he built little old-fashioned vintage desks inside and got all

stuff from skips old school carpets and put electricity in there because he like Sparky in the book was an electrician and it would just be a place that we would go go to my sister and I actually recently fought over it for who could get a crane delivered into one of our gardens we decided it should belong it lives where it belongs right now but um I always wanted to do something with this story and with the place um and I guess as you mentioned my own experience um I felt not not a of care, not responsibility or pressure for anybody else, but I've written a lot of children's books now and feel like I should speak more about the darker side of what life actually truly is about in its beauty and terror

in both ways. We're quite scared of letting children feel sad, aren't we? Sure, we are, yeah. We want to say, are you okay? Are you happy all the time? Absolutely. And I think that is a pressure. And I certainly feel like that. You know, when I got unwell, I was a bit like, this doesn't fit me. This is not my narrative. I'm not allowed to be unwell. And it almost added to my illness, inflamed it that I felt this kind of, you know, like I had to be a children's author, I had to be buoyant and switched on all the time. And the irony of, okay, I'm the children's author that now has my own baby and doesn't know how to care for it, doesn't know how to love my own child. And then, you know,

in a psychiatric ward, that three weeks, when my baby was three weeks was not what I expected. And when I got well again, after I told my own story, I was like, now I feel like I want to make sure the books I make speak about hope, about acceptance, about recovery, about survival and getting through difficult stuff. So that's kind of my mission now. Because just to say with Rex's story for a minute, that he does come through this. You know, you can be sad for a bit or quite some time or carry that with you and then, you know, come through it. And that in itself can be a really important lesson. Well, that was kind of the final message that I wanted to land with, really, was that, you know, his father is in him, you know,

and in everything that he does. And that's with love, with memories, with stories, with anything you go through, it becomes a part of you. You don't just, you know, because it's not there for you to see it doesn't mean it it disappears do you think though um there is a danger because at the other side of this we have started to talk so much more about mental health that you can medicalize pathologize what can be normal sadness in a child if it scares you that you think something's wrong with a child totally yeah but I feel you know my my little boy asked me that he's three and a half now and he asked me the other day do you love me when I'm grumpy I was like of course I love you when you're

grumpy and I think holding space for that is what is is what is important there is a pressure as you said about with social media extra kind of to be this happy glossy lifestyle all the time I posted a picture recently when um was Suicide Prevention Day, a picture that I put up of myself, you know, claiming to be the happiest I ever was. And then I put up a few other pictures of when I truly was on the other side of my illness and feeling my best. And there's no difference between the photographs.

You know, you would not know this monstrous illness that I was going through because it is mostly invisible. But inside, you know, your brain is having a heart attack. You know, you're not well. not know this monstrous illness that I was going through because it is mostly invisible but inside you know your brain is having a heart attack you know you're not you're not well um so I think actually yes I hear what you're saying but um I think we do need to also make sure that we're looking in really in listening and also about how to be empathetic I suppose because listening is so important but also sharing talking going I've been through this and look, I managed to get through to the other side. And that's what it is, is about visibility. You have written about your story in your memoir, What Have I Done? And I know you also

present a podcast, Zombie Mum, about mental maternal health, I should say. I'm a zombie today, I'm a boy. It was very wise of you to realise, you know, as new mums and parents, it's hard to read a book. So good to have something you can actually listen to. But, you know, and I wouldn't normally ask this question. You definitely tell me to, you know, bog off and do one. Lots of people have and will continue to do so. But it's one to ask in the terms of your experience.

Does it make you feel what you've been through differently about the potential of having another child? I'm not going to do that again, you know. I'm really not. There's a 50% chance of me getting the illness again. My illness was called postpartum psychosis, if anybody wants to look it up. APP is an amazing organisation that exists.

The illness led me to truly believe, you know, that I had made this up, invented it. The illness masquerade it hides itself it's the most deceptive it's that my brain was a Rubik's cube you could have told me I was a crisp and I would have believed you at this time I was so vulnerable and poorly then there's a physical symptoms as well you know insomnia and extreme suicidal thoughts so I am my saving grace of everything I went through was that my son Jet was too little to understand what was going on. And, you know, I am here talking about today about the importance of awareness, that knowledge is power, that we should be throwing these dark things into the light and speak about these heavy subjects.

In the same breath, I'm so glad he never had to see me that poorly. And I don't want to ever have to make that decision um for him I feel a little bit like I have arrived at this island after a shipwreck and I'm gripping to that island like thank goodness that was close so I'm just not gonna risk it and you know I feel so grateful um having psychosis and a pandemic in two years to go through that's enough words beginning with p that I can't spell. Yeah, I think you're there. But I have to say, you've been very industrious churning out the words.

The book is called The Dream House. Laura Dockrell, thank you very much. And I should say, if you need any help, we'll post some links on the Woman's Hour website with reference to that. Just to finish with a clarification on the story we started the programme with about Bronzefield Prison and the baby who died there two years ago.

In response to something our guest, the prison and probation ombudsman Sue McAllister said, the private company that runs the prison, Sodexo, has been in touch to say the point about internal investigations not having taken place is categorically incorrect. An internal inquiry and disciplinary investigation were undertaken. Following the incident and appropriate steps have been taken with staff where required.

If you missed that interview, go back and listen to it on BBC Sounds. The podcast will be up soon. Thank you so much for your company today and we'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.