Woman's Hour - Charlotte Charles, Ella Robertson McKay, Rainbow Murray, Cerys Hafana, Sejal Majithia and Sejal Sachdev , Girls World series

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

Anne Sacoolas - a US citizen - has admitted causing the death of 19 year old Harry Dunn, outside an airbase in Northamptonshire in 2019. Yesterday, she appeared at the Old Bailey via video link and pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving. She'd been charged with causing death by dangerous driving -- but her guilty plea to the lesser charge was accepted. She will be sentenced next month. Her family and campaigners have worked tirelessly to get justice for Harry. In a radio exclusive, we hear reaction from his mother Charlotte Charles. After weeks of political turmoil Liz Truss resigned yesterday after just 45 days as Prime Minister. Her resignation has triggered a second Tory leadership election in just four months. But why did her leadership fail? Was there something inherently wrong with her leadership style or was this about gender? We hear from Ella Robertson McKay National Chair of Conservative Young Women, and from Rainbow Murray, Professor of Politics at Queen Mary University.Cerys Hafana is one of the few people in the world who plays the Welsh triple harp. At the age of just 21, she has made her mark on the Welsh folk music scene, with a second album which ‘mangles, mutates, and transforms’ the canon. She'll be playing one of the tracks from the new album live in the studio.And Anita Rani will be speaking to Sejal Majithia and Sejal Sachdev the women behind a new exhibition Ugandan Asians A Living History which reflects on fifty years since the expulsion of Asians by Idi Amin. They’ll be giving us an insight into what women and their families went through during and after expulsion and how it’s shaped communities today.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Managers: Tim Heffer & Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Danny Robbins, host of the spooky podcast Uncanny and the Battersea Poltergeist. Just before you settle down for your usual podcast, maybe you're out walking or maybe you're at home. But are you alone? Are you sure? Because this is a warning. Something wicked this way comes. My brand new podcast series, The Witch Farm, mixes documentary and drama

to investigate a real-life paranormal cold case. Listen out for The Witch Farm, the true story of Britain's most haunted house. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. We have made it to Friday and what a week it's been. Thought you might all appreciate some beautiful music today. Isn't that stunning? So soothing.

That is Cerys Hafanna. She's taking Welsh folk and giving it a 21st century twist via her beautiful harp and she'll be in the studio playing live for us a little bit later. Something to look forward to. Now, as you all know, this programme wouldn't be what it is without your input. And today I have a very simple question for you all. Imagine you've had the worst day at work. What I'd like to know is what you do to pick yourself up afterwards. We've all had them, but how do you cope? Do you call your mum a mate? Do you listen to music? Do you go for a run, disappear into some craft, sit in a darkened room?

Do you have a pep talk or a little secret mantra that you say to yourself? Or do you just go down the pub? I want you all to share your techniques to pick yourself up after the worst day at work. And maybe your advice will help someone else today. You can get in touch in the usual ways. You can text me. It's 84844. You can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

You can email me through the website or you can send me a WhatsApp. And I'd particularly like to hear a voice note if any of you fancy leaving me a message, not a podcast, just a short, sweet message. It's 03700 100 444. Also in today's program, it's 50 years since Ugandan Asians were kicked out of Uganda by Idi Amin. We'll be talking to two women who have curated and created a new exhibition and talking to them about their experiences.

So do get in touch with me about anything you hear on the programme today. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 84844 is the number to text. But first, Anne Sekoulas has admitted causing the death

of 19-year-old motorcyclist Harry Dunn outside US military base RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire in August 2019. Yesterday, the US citizen appeared at the Old Bailey via video link from America and pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving. She'd been charged with causing death by dangerous driving, but her guilty plea to the lesser charge was accepted. She'll be sentenced

next month. It was a case that sparked a diplomatic row between the UK and US. 19 days after the crash she left the country claiming diplomatic immunity. Well Harry's family fought for three years for and to face the UK justice system and in her first radio interview harry's mother charlotte charles joins me now welcome to woman's hour charlotte morning thanks for having me it's always a pleasure to have you on i would like to get your reaction to hearing that guilty plea in the old bailey um total relief um it we it's been something we've been fighting for, as you've said, for three very, very, very long and painful, arduous years. And to walk into the Old Bailey yesterday, I think we were all sat there with a little bit of trepidation.

You know, we've had a lot of letdowns over the last three years and had hopes built up to then be dashed. So I don't think any one of us actually believed what we were hearing until the guilty came out of her mouth. So it was a good thing that I was sat down and not stood because I just went to jelly from the inside out. It was just a phenomenal relief to know that that promise that I made to Harry on the night that he was killed was, for me, finally done. It's finally done. It's all over to the courts now. Remind us of that promise. What promise did you make to Harry? On the night that he died, I got to the hospital just a few minutes too late.

Unfortunately, from what I know at the moment, because we've not had our inquest yet, of course, but in front of family and friends, I kissed his forehead and his bruised lip and I promised him that I would get him justice. I had no idea of the difficult circumstances that were going to come about that surrounded that night. And I had no idea that it would take me this long.

But I absolutely knew from that moment that I was going to give it my all, no matter what, to make sure justice was done. It's been a tough few years. And you really have given it your all you fought so hard you've dealt with prime ministers present presidents you've gone to extraordinary lengths to get justice for harry did you ever think this day would come yes there's never been any doubt in my mind you know when you've got that that burning feeling in the pit of your stomach that, you know, makes you feel so terribly nauseous for many hours of every day. And it's still burning and you've still got that yearning to carry out that promise. Nothing will stop you.

There wasn't a moment that I didn't think it would happen. I had no idea how much longer it was going to take me and my little team, Harry. I had absolutely no idea, but there was no way that I was going to give up. So yes, Anita, I definitely knew this day would come. She was charged in 2019 with causing death by dangerous driving, but she's pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of death

by careless driving. How does that sit with you? It's good with me. You know, we were approached about it beforehand. We were consulted about it. We knew that the death by dangerous was something that the police had put the charge in for, but we were always very aware of the circumstances surrounding the the two charges that it could come under the death by careless instead to be perfectly honest each of them carry similar sentences depending on the the circumstances you know if you if you're drinking when you're driving and so on and so forth the sentence is more and that would come under the dangerous more than the careless but we've never really

focused on any of that side of it we've never allowed ourselves to worry or focus on the outcome and the sentencing because to be perfectly honest nothing's ever enough when you've had a loved one taken from you whether it's a child or another family member. You know, when you've been robbed of seeing that person grow, nothing's ever enough. So enough damage has been done to our lives. We've always promised ourselves that we wouldn't focus on that. So we're good. We're good with the outcome of yesterday. And you've never physically been in the same room, despite Donald Trump trying to orchestrate it when you went to America.

What was the experience like yesterday of seeing her face, albeit on video? The first time I saw her face on video was three weeks ago at the magistrate's court. That was, for me, the day where I just didn't take my eyes off of that video screen. I needed her, if she could see me, I'm still not aware whether she could or not, I needed her to see that those who tried very, very hard to break me and my family. They didn't quite succeed. Yesterday was just another one of those days, but my eyes did divert away from her on occasions when Duncan, our barrister, was talking for us

and when the judge was talking. I prefer to be able to look people in the eyes and that's when I feel that I can absorb more information. You know, my brain doesn't work like it used to. We have no idea yet of the depth of mental health problems that we've got. We know we've got a number. We've buried our grief for three years and we've been robbed of... We've not been afforded that time to be able to grieve. So yesterday was perhaps for us the start of now really getting in depth with our therapy. But I took my eyes off the screen only when I needed to.

I was aware that she could see more of the courtroom yesterday and it was important to me, for Harry's sake. Hopefully he could see us up there with the angels to show him that, you know what, we've still got the strength and to look up to him and say, you know what, darling, we've done it. Yeah, it was a big day, a big, big day. Well, we have to talk about Harry, don't we?

Remind us, what was he like? That's the easy part, talking about Harry. He was just amazing, a larger-than-life character. Big heart, generous, kind, would do anything for anyone, very, very wacky sense of humour. I think very many of us are aware of his passion for motorbikes, but he also had a passion for IT. He built his first gaming computer from scratch at the age of 13.

He's always been into his gadgets and the the latest technology out there which is another reason why why we were willing to go ahead with the video link you know we're we're proving to Harry that we can move with the times too and that we're not dinosaurs um but yeah he was just a wonderful wonderful character he'd do anything for anyone and just loved to have a laugh he loved life you know he would work extra shifts if he needed to you know he would cover sick sick cover for for colleagues of his at the very last minute sometimes doing 16 hour shifts coming home sleeping for four going back in he'd done for others what he would have expected any other human to do for another human. He had a very, very big heart and he was so family orientated. And you met him, I'm sure.

And he sounds great. Wonderful, wonderful son. He was, he was. And you've talked about the toll it's taken on your mental health and that of the family, because we know how tirelessly you've worked to get justice. And Harry has a twin, Niall. How is Niall coping? He's doing better now.

Thank you, Anita, for asking. This time last year, we had an extremely terrifying time with him. He couldn't see a future he honestly didn't know who he was without his twin he's finding his way through he's done what we need to do which is engage in in some therapy proper sessions long sessions and a long stint of it. And we need to show him that we're going to do that too. He's getting there. He is getting there. But he is still trying to figure out who he is. He's come a long way in the last 12 months,

but he's gone from being a twin and having someone by his side from the moment he was born to sadly essentially feeling like he's an only child you know yes he has stepbrothers and a stepsister but I think for him you know there's nothing like having a twin and and us as parents can't even understand that you know we feel our loss as losing a child but we weren't we, but we're not able to understand his grief. So it's been a long road and he's got a long way to go, but he's come a long way as well. And I'm so, so proud of him. So proud.

And of course, it's not over. I know you've said that for you, the sentencing isn't that important, but it's not over until you have the sentencing. Yeah, absolutely. And who knows what's going to happen there? Judge made it very, very clear yesterday that if Anzacoulas wants to show the most amount of remorse that she could possibly show, then she needs to come to the UK. Judge made it very clear that if she came over, if she does come over, then that will show a tremendous amount of remorse. Is that important to you? And therefore sentencing would be less.

Yeah, absolutely it is. You know, we went over to the States three years ago this coming week to ask her to do exactly that. We just wanted her to do the right thing. We wanted her to do what you and I would have to do exactly that. We just wanted her to do the right thing. We wanted her to do what you and I would have to do. So absolutely, it's important to us, always has been. You know, we're not, we've never been about vengeance and retribution. We're not a callous family. We're a big hearted family, a normal family from little South Northamptonshire. You know, we don't mean any

harm. We don't hold any resentment towards her. So of course we'd want her back. Do you think she'll come? Who knows? I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess. We've been asking her for three years and it hasn't happened yet. if the judge can do it then you know i i will take my hat off to her so i honestly do not know the balls in her court charlotte charles thank you so much for speaking to me this morning thank you for having me i really appreciate it and thank you for all of your support charlotte church charles speaking to us uh this morning um i have been asking you all from the start of the program how you would cope if you had a bad day at work and lots of you have been getting in touch camilla says i'd cook myself a delicious meal and immerse myself in an absorbing

box set sally says a hot bath with bubbles and lovely smells whilst reading something good ideally feminist and funny. And Lorna says, I walk my two spaniels. They are a wonderful tonic to any bad day. The reason I ask, obviously, is because after weeks of political turmoil, Liz Truss resigned yesterday after just 44 days as prime minister. A bad day at work. Her resignation has triggered a second Tory leadership election in just four months. The questions now are who will succeed her and will they be able to provide stability to such a divided Conservative Party? But why did Liz Truss's leadership fail so spectacularly? Was she doomed ultimately by her lack of ability and what part did her gender have to play, if any? Well, here

to help us unpick all of this are Ella Robertson-McKay, National Chair of Conservative Young Women, and Rainbow Murray, Professor of Politics at Queen Mary University of London. Morning to you both. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Ella, I'm going to come to you first. Was the problem with Liz Truss that she lacked the right leadership qualities? She just wasn't up to the job? Clearly. and during the leadership debate she said things that were quite convincing to a lot of people at the time like i might not be the slickest presenter on this stage and people don't people go oh gosh i don't really like slick politicians but actually being a confident clear communicator who get your point across the public get people on side and

present in a way that feels polished, that feels like you know what you're talking about, it's really, really critical in being Prime Minister. And what about what part did gender have to play them, if any? Hard to know. I think the Tory party are very, very passionate amongst its membership ranks, both in the parliamentary party and the rest of the party, that they want the best person for the job, regardless of gender or any other identity. I do think, though, that some of the commentary around it, you know, Boris Johnson was on the ropes for a very long time and had arguably the most, the silliest hair out of any politician. And I don't recall any tabloid putting a Boris Johnson wig on a lettuce.

I do think that the media finds it easier to go after women. And I do think there is a real sport about being mean to politicians and seeing how cruel people can be. Having said that, man, woman, anything else, you know, Liz Truss was clearly not the job. And that's why she's gone off to 44 days. Let me bring Professor Rainbow Murray in here. Do you think that gender had a part to play in her demise? Do you think there was a layer of misogyny underneath the fact that she wasn't really well equipped to do the job? I share Ella's view that her downfall was on her own watch. I think she has to take responsibility for her own failings.

And I think that the reason she fell wasn't because she was a woman. I think to the extent that gender had any role to play, it was that perhaps she didn't benefit from the indulgence that we sometimes afford to male politicians. So I think she lacked the competence to be Prime Minister, and therefore she deserved to come down. But there are men for whom that is also true who have not been shown as perhaps as swift a downfall, as vicious a critique as she experienced. And I think at the moment we are seeing people having serious conversations about the return of a male politician who has been completely discredited, the former Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who was ousted from office by his own party for criminal investigations and is now being sort of suggested as a serious contender to return.

I don't think we would have had that conversation about a woman. But having said that, I don't think we can say that gender was the primary reason why she fell. I think she has to take responsibility for that. I mean, before we even get into the disastrous mini budget, I just want to talk about watching her. It was quite difficult. She was so ill at ease, wasn't she, being leader? I just wonder how much of that was because she was trying to portray something she's not. She was almost sort of trying to fit in to the role of what is expected of a leader i'm just kind of putting it out there for for discussion you know

we're watching someone who's not being authentic relaxed confident as opposed to i suppose you know regardless of where your politics lies you know watching someone like angela rayner or jess phillips because they're relaxed it relax you. She didn't have that quality. She didn't. But again, I don't think that's a gender thing. I think charisma is something that someone has or they don't. We saw, for example, that Gordon Brown didn't have that charisma and it hurt him. It definitely shortened his tenure as Prime Minister

and harshened critiques towards him. Boris Johnson is someone who has charisma in abundance. And as Ella said, people think that they don't want this quality, but ultimately they do seek it. I thought Truss did surprisingly well in her conference speech. She had clearly received training. And if you compare that to the sort of disastrous conference speech that she gave in 2014, the pork market speech,

she clearly raised her game. She'd improved her delivery. She came across as more confident. But once you saw her trying to give speeches outside that specific circumstance where she clearly practiced it and received a lot of feedback, you could see that natural awkwardness returning. But the question is, you know, is that what we judge a leader on? I would say ultimately not. But I don't think that was the reason she fell. I think I think her policies were the reason she fell on her inability to unite the party. Ella, was she set up to fail? I mean, Tory party members who voted her in knew she wasn't the most natural leader. I think that two big things have gone wrong.

Number one, she campaigned on things that were going to be almost impossible to deliver. And Rishi Sunak did the more difficult job. He went out and said, we won't be able to do all of these nice things. The economy is going to be very difficult and painted quite a bleak picture. And it's much easier to go out on the campaign trail and promise everyone what they want to hear and tell people what they want to hear. And the fact that Liz Truss did that is really why she won. She promised things she couldn't deliver, got into office, and found that the economic reality just was not as she had wished.

The second thing that went wrong is that she wasn't able to unite the parliamentary party. And the parliamentary party got rid of the last two prime ministers, both Theresa May and Boris Johnson, fell because they didn't have the support of their parliamentary colleagues. It's a very powerful group of people. And whether it's making decisions like not putting any senior Rishi supporters into her cabinet or whether she just wasn't able to convince them that she had a plan that worked, whatever it was, she wasn't able to get them behind her. So there was constant dissent, there was constant briefing against her. And ultimately, if you can't unite that group of quite powerful MPs, it's very, very difficult to make a go of governing in a parliamentary democracy, where if people don't vote for you, you can't remain as Prime Minister because you can't get your business through the House. What part did the, you know, the glass cliff have to play in this where it's a woman that's brought in to clean up the mess well i think that the the resigning so quickly i think is something that we rarely see from men

you know allegra stratton was clearly the first person to go over party gate she went immediately although she got rid of a chancellor before she resigned what she did she did but she the chancellor was fired usually men cling on to power for as long as they can. And we saw that with Boris Johnson. He was on the ropes again and again and again. It felt like he was he was never going to go. I think the fact that she went so quickly is is quite a uniquely female thing to do. The minute that you kind of realise that you're doing it wrong, you step out of the way. But, you know, ultimately, whether it's Penny Morden or Rishi Sunak or you potentially Boris Johnson

you whoever comes in to clean up her mess it's going to be a woman's mess that they're cleaning up. Do you think this is a question for both of you but I'll come to you Rainbow first do you think she's damaged the greater idea of female leadership Catherine Ryan put out a tweet saying this is the last time they'll let a woman do anything? I actually don't think she did. And that's, if you like, a positive outcome of this. She's not our first or even our second woman prime minister. I think we have got more use now to the idea of having a woman at the helm. And that's one of the positives, I think, to come out of this. We've seen a sort of a normalisation of female leadership. So I don't think she was judged first and foremost as a woman. I think she was judged as a politician. I think she was judged on her ideas and on what she did, which is how it

should be. And we are now talking seriously about female contenders to replace her without commentary on their gender, but simply on their capacity and their ideology. And so I think people are not looking to Alistair Arsene saying, oh, dear, we can't have a woman running the country. They're saying, oh, dear, we can't have someone that far to the right of the party having a run in the country, or we can't have someone who doesn't have a credible economic plan running in the country. And I take some I take some encouragement from that. I think that's progress. So let's look at the runners and the riders when it comes to the next prime minister. Two women, Penny Mordaunt and Swala Bravaman

are being talked about. And what about someone like Kemi Badenoch who made it to the last four in the previous contest? Ella? I think that realistically, they have to have 100 MPs supporting them. So there's only really going to be three contenders. This is not like the last leadership race.

You're really going to be down to three, which is probably Boris, Rishi and Penny, unless something really changes dramatically in the next 24 hours or so. What I would say to your listeners is lots of people have got Conservative MPs. Even if you didn't vote for them, now is a really, really good time to write to your MP

and make your views known. All of the MPs are going to be listening very carefully to their constituents over the next few days. So you might not get a say in the leadership race if it does go to the members, but your MPs will want to hear from you. And it's really important to make sure that they understand who you think is the appropriate person to take on the premiership. And Rainbow, what qualities will the next leader have to have? The next leader has an almost insurmountable challenge ahead of them. They are inheriting the economic mess that has been left both ahead of and exacerbated by those trusts' tenure. They are inheriting a deeply divided party that has proved itself to be increasingly fractious.

And they are inheriting some appalling poll ratings that reflect the fact that the nation has lost trust in the Conservative Party to be a party of economic competence. That is an enormous challenge for any individual to turn around. Because of that, I think that maybe some of the younger candidates in the fray, you mentioned Kemi Badenoch, I think she would probably not want to win this one, even if she entered it to boost her name recognition, because she's relatively young. I think anyone who takes on this contest now pretty much knows that the best they can hope for is to be Prime Minister from now until the next general election, which if they do well, would be maybe in 18 months time, and that that's probably going

to be the end of their career. I think if you're really aspiring to the top of the party, you might think, I'll sit this one out. I'll let the party have its time in opposition. And then I'll come back and be the great leader that I really want to be when the Conservatives are ready to govern again. Imagine if it was Kemi, though, female black Prime Minister of Britain. I think her time is coming. I don't think her time is now, but I think she would achieve more and be better served by coming back when the party's in a stronger position. I think this is right now exactly the glass cliff that you were mentioning. I think this is a poisoned chalice and I think anyone who takes on this chalice does so with trepidation. So I think it's not necessarily the ideal time to have a trailblazing Prime

Minister. Rainbow, Ella, thank you for joining me this morning. I'm asking you all how you cope after a really bad day at work. After a really bad day coming home and being greeted by my dog Damson, because she's always pleased to see see me her tail whirls like a windmill and she rushes off to find her favorite toy duck she always makes me feel loved and better um someone here is messaging to say i worked in a toxic school and used to shake the day off with a dance exercise class with the most amazing instructor who'd make us all laugh plus a good hot shower and a change of clothes always helps 8484844. Your tips and advice on how to cope after a terrible day at work. Now on Woman's Hour, we talk about girls a lot, how we raise them and

keep them safe. We discuss their mental health and physical health, but we don't often talk to them. For an occasional series called Girls World, Enna Miller went to talk to three girls at their school in Stroud about their concerns, about what they think about and who they admire. Who do you look up to? Who inspires you? I like activists and stuff. The people that stand up against, like... The women that men say are annoying.

I look up to the African-American girls, that's all I can say. Sounds a bit cringey, but definitely my mum and my dad. And there's lots of women around me that I really look up to. But also people online like Greta Thunberg. Do you think about the planet on a day-to-day basis? Do you think about saving it? Yeah, definitely. Me and my friends are like really interested in

climate change and how to stop it and i like doing activism and going on protests and stuff it does scare me a bit actually the fact that adults don't always listen and when you say it scares you what you're scared by mass extinction the climate catastrophe, temperatures will rise and we'll lose like land because of sea levels rising. You've just terrified me. I'm sorry. No because obviously I'm aware of it. I didn't think about the whole people dying. I just try not to think about it. Do you think your life is easier now than your parents or do you think your life's harder than your parents life for my parents was in a struggling like village one of those like undeveloped countries and still developing they probably struggled a lot more than I have but I've struggled in different ways than they

have so they can't we can't really compare each other we both had it hard in different ways. I can't really compare to my parents. Have you ever asked them? I mean, yeah, my dad, he's an orphan refugee from Tibet and he had to walk to Nepal when he was six. So I'm very privileged, but I also know that I'm not as privileged as you can be. I do think that I'm more privileged than he was. And I think both me and my parents struggled as teenagers, just in different ways.

My dad physically struggled, and it was more of like a, I don't know how I'm going to get around the world and stuff. And my mum, I think she also struggled, but I don't think anyone's struggles are less valid just because they're different. So what do you do? Where do you hang about? I mean, I live in Stroud and I love the community I'm in. I live around loads of my friends

and there's just loads of green spaces. I think it's harder... Actually, it's harder as a teenager. There's not as many places to go, but, yeah, I love that. I like Swindon because it's like you can go, like, everywhere and there's, like, something for you to do everywhere. And the final word to you about where you live? With my mum, I live just outside of Swindon, but I live quite near a field and a big park.

But there is quite... Because you can either go to town, which is a bit dead, but whatever. You can go to town or you can go to the field. And with my dad, I live in Winchester, but he's lived all over the place. He's lived in the countryside and the city, and it's good to have loads of different things to do because being on your phone all the time or in a house all the time,

it does get a bit tiresome after a while and it's good to have places to go and try different things. You said the word tiresome, but we also talked about maybe it also gets boring. I was going to say boring, but I was trying to think of a different word. Not only do we celebrate women on Women's Hour, we big up Swindon. Now, next Friday, we'll be looking in detail at the current state of childcare in the UK, and we would love to hear your stories. I'd love to know what your experience of finding good quality, affordable childcare is,

how it's been a challenge. Have you had to give up your job or has it been straightforward? How have you managed to make it work for you and your family? We would love to hear from you, whether you're a parent, informal caregiver, childcare provider or employer. Child free, but the knock on effect of childcare issues impact your life. Whatever your stories around childcare, do get in touch. You can drop me a text 84844 or email us by going to our website. Like I said, next Friday, we'll be doing a child care

special. So I've been asking you all how you cope if you've had a really bad day. I think my next guest might be able to help us all out. Joining me in the studio today is one of the few people in the world who can play the Welsh triple harp. Now, if you don't know what that is, it sounds something like this. That was a very brief and sweet taste of Keris Hafana's latest album, Edith, and you'll be hearing more of that later as she joins me now in the studio. Welcome with your magnificent harp. Can you describe this beautiful instrument that you've brought into Women's Hour HQ? Yes so it's slightly taller than a Celtic harp that people might be familiar with. It's made from oak and unlike harps, it has three rows of strings, which is three times as many strings as most harps have.

Does that make it three times harder to play? Yes, definitely. When did you first... Is pick up the right word to use? Yeah, I suppose you do have to pick it up. What age were you? Because you're only 21, already on your second album. So you're a musical genius.

And she is. When you listen to the album, you will agree with me. So when did you first decide that this was the instrument for you? I started playing a Celtic harp when I was about eight because my mum's Welsh teacher happens to also be a harp teacher and lived across the road from us. So it just made sense that I'd get sent across the road for some harp lessons. That's handy. the road from us so it just made sense that I'd get sent across the road for some harp lessons um and then handy yeah I got the upgrade to this weird type of harp about three years later because I was um competing in a local competition and I think my teacher realized I needed a USP to give

me a chance of winning um so she handed me this this beast of a harp with all of its strings and I had about a week to learn how to play it, which was fun. And yeah, I've never looked back. No, you haven't. You've become renowned as a contemporary harpist, which again is remarkable because you're so young, but obviously it's because you have a gift. I mean, it is a bit of a niche.

Just a bit, yeah. So how do you even start? Well, yeah, you get lucky and you find a teacher who is one of the only people who teaches it um and you have to it's very hard to look at it because the strings are such a mess i think that's the biggest hurdle to overcome if you already play the harp is learning how to kind of make sense of the mess of lines in front of you um and then it's just getting used to the the way that it's different because the three rows mean that you have two of each note on the outside strings which you don't

it's impossible to get that on any other type of harp it gives you a kind of echoing effect go on give us a plug i know you're going to play us a track but let's let's do it so the two outside strings sound like this and the middle row are the black notes, the chromatic notes, which means that you don't need levers or foot pedals to play in a different key. And so you've got that. Except obviously they're in the middle,

they're kind of hard to get to, which is sort of the design flaw of this certain type of harp. Keris is doing an amazing job at explaining all of this but we obviously will take a photograph of you and video you and put it all out there because there'll be people trying to imagine it but you won't be able to um let's talk about your passion for folk music and your album edith which means threads so talk me through the process you went through to create this album how did you assemble your threads yeah a lot of it started during lockdown um and my my big lockdown hobby because i'm really cool was going on to the welsh national library's online digitized archive

um they have this amazing thing called the ballads database, where you go and you search any word you can think of, and it will throw up news ballads, which were written 200 years ago or something. And these aren't like sad Adele piano ballads in the way that we think of the word. They were how most people got their news back in the day. So there'd be people who would stand on a street corner and compose lyrics about some big event that had happened in the town. And then lots of these got published or printed and the National Library has put them all online.

So you can find some amazing stuff. I think my favourite one that I found, but it's not on the album, is about three people getting caught stealing a sheep. But for the album, I was looking more for songs and ballads that felt like that felt kind of strange and a bit different from what a lot of Welsh folk songs are about because I felt like I'd kind of I'd done that um but also looking for ones that had slightly cosmic themes so there's a song about a comet um which I really liked because I guess the thread with that one

was that we still go and look at comets and I'm kind of amazed by them and this this poem had been written in 1858 by a guy also watching a comet pass um which was really cool um and then the one that just got played a little bit of is about eternity and someone being mind blown by the idea of eternity which reminded me of how I felt as a kid when I was taught that the universe is infinite. That's very cool. And then, so you took these 200-year-old ballads and made them your own and brought them up to date. Yeah, I kind of, you know, I kind of destroyed them

in the way that I like to do. And it's been noticed in the folk music scene. It has a bit, yes. What's the reaction been? They're mostly good, mostly positive. I think people enjoy hearing these weird songs because you just don't realise that this kind of repertoire exists. We're so used to singing folk songs about heartbreak and farm animals and they're kind of the two big themes and so I think when people hear a song in Welsh about a comet

that was written 200 years ago they're just amazed and I think it helps them feel a connection to the past. There are people who think that I'm doing Welsh folk music wrong but they're a minority. You said I took them and destroyed them in quite a confident proud manner. Yeah you've got to be proud of what you do. Absolutely absolutely. I feel like I get a sense, but you want to push tradition. You want to change it and make it your own. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't think that what I'm doing is going to change the face of Welsh folk music.

I'm just one little, you know, one little grain of sand doing my own thing. And I think it was natural that I'd bring in my own influences. When I started writing my own music, it was kind of impossible to not let that happen because I'm so inspired by different types of music that aren't just folk music and I really enjoy bringing that sound into how I do folk music and what about the people who the real traditionalists who think you shouldn't be doing this because I read a

brilliant I'm not I'm not going to paraphr you, but I really like your insight into kind of this misplaced nostalgia that people have sometimes. You tell me what you think that it's misleading to pretend that Welsh traditional music has sounded the same forever. And it's only now with me that it's changing. Because, you know, you can't just sort of throw a dart at a timeline and say, oh, 1750 is when it was done right. And anything that doesn't sound like how it would have been done then is not Welsh. And it's leading people astrayray and it's giving people the wrong idea because if you'd thrown that dart at you know the 1400s Welsh music would have sounded completely different I mean it sounds bizarre there are people who perform that early music now and no one's out there pretending that that's the true type of Welsh music even though you know it was also being done even longer ago so I just think that this idea of tradition as being one thing that has stayed the same is kind of wrong. I think that you can see tradition as a series of changes and things getting passed down, but also getting changed when the country and when the people change. Absolutely. That's the incredible Keris Hafana and the album is called Edith. Thank you. What a treat. That's beautiful.

Now, on to the next item. Imagine waking up and being told you had 90 days to leave your home and your country. Well, that was the reality for Ugandan Asians 50 years ago in August 1972, when the Ugandan president, Idi Amin, ordered the country's Asian population to get out. Many women fled their homes with their families with just a suitcase. Some ended up being separated from their husbands and extended families. It's estimated

that around 30,000 people were granted asylum in the UK. Now, 50 years on, the Ugandan Asian community are remembering the journeys and stories of those who were caught up and forced to start a new life elsewhere. And with me in the studio are Sejal Sachdev and Sejal Majithia, whose families were affected by the significant events of this moment in South Asian history. And you have both joined together because you have curated an exhibition in South London at the Migration Museum. So welcome to the studio, both of you. It's nice to have you both here. How amazing was Keres? That was really amazing.

I know, we were all mesmerised, weren't we? So I'm so delighted that we're able to talk about this really important moment in history, because within the Asian community, there is a substantial Ugandan community and the two of you came together to create this exhibition why? Because we just felt that our stories needed to be told you know growing up me personally I always felt really detached from the Ugandan Asian story because we had left before expulsion we were forced out of Uganda before expulsion so I never really thought it was my story. And so all my life I went through feeling quite displaced because I didn't really understand who I was. And it's only when I went back to Uganda in 2018 and realised that this was my story and how little of this story was actually known, even for someone who was born in Uganda herself. And fortunately, I met Sejal last year and we had the same vision that we wanted to tell our stories and own our stories because it's not taught in British schools.

It's not part of the political discourse. And there's very few books that are actually written about this subject. There's probably a handful of books. More women are writing their memoirs and stuff. But in terms of actual historical factual stuff there's very little that's written you're right so little discourse and yet it is such it's part of colonial history that's right because so let's let's just so that the audience understands that some people may not know anything about this you know so what what points in your

family which generation left india to go to uganda Uganda? So my grandfather left in 1920 to go from the Gujarat to go to Uganda because he didn't want to be a farmer so he left and he set up a shop in Dororo in Uganda so that was in the 1920s and then my dad was born in the 1930s and I was born in 1960s so we were sort of a few years on from when the indentured slaves came over. So he was there to support the Asian community who'd remained after some of them had gone back from building the railways. And there was quite a sizable community in Uganda because there was a lot of Indians who had done.

And so a lot of people of your grandfather's generation went over at the same time. In fact, my in-laws have a similar story. And they were a very successful community. That's right. They were a very successful community. That's right. They were a very successful community. Even though the Muslims and the Hindu Punjabis and the Hindus lived together very peacefully, celebrating each other's successes, but they were allowed to set up trades and set up businesses

and some of them were part of the political system. So they were a very successful community. And I think by the time we were expelled, it's estimated there were 80,000 Ugandan Asians. Yeah. And just on that, though, I think there is the perception that they were successful communities, but there were lots of Asians within the Ugandan Asian community that, you know, did struggle. And my parents were one of those people that did struggle. My father was a small trader, he owned a dukkah, you know, one of the small shops. And when the Africanization policies started to be introduced in 1969, you know, he was forced to leave to start all over again, because he could no longer be trading. And, you know, that was the experience of lots of

small traders in Uganda who held British passports because they weren't Ugandan citizens they were forced to leave you know in the late 60s. And so when they were expelled by Idi Amin because he wanted to take the businesses back and like you say the Africanized Ocean policies they wanted to instill African Ugandan families into those businesses what was the experience of your families what happened happened to you, Sejal? Because I know that you were born there, you were living there. Yeah, so I was seven. And so when it happened, I was too young to really remember

whether my family was upset, but I do remember the conversations and there'd be late night conversations, family gatherings about what we're going to do. Initially, they thought, well, this is all going to change. He's going to revert this. And then there was this panic that we're going to have to leave and I just remember my dad went to Kampala 17 times to get to get a British passport get find a country for us to go and live in and that was hugely dangerous because there was army soldiers you know the army soldiers who just took it upon themselves to raid

people kill people and my mum packing packing all our. I had family in the UK, so I was quite excited as a seven-year-old. It was like, I'm going to get on a plane, I'm going to go, there's double-decker buses in London. So for me, it wasn't frightening, it was exciting. And maybe my parents protected me, but, you know, there was four of us children. So for me at the time, it felt exciting. What was your memory of landing? It was wet of us children. So for me at the time, it felt exciting. What was your memory of landing? It was wet.

Yes. Cold. Yes. And our 50th anniversary is this Sunday. So it was this kind of weather. And we arrived at Stansted Airport. I was given a red fur coat to wear by these very kind volunteers, a secondhand coat. And we were put on a double-decker bus and taken to a refugee camp in Sussex in Mayorsford.

So for me, we were driven through London. I saw Big Ben. It was great. I was in London. And then we were taken to an old army barracks, which was turned into a refugee camp. And now as women who have come together, you've obviously spoken about this at length between yourselves. And that must have been an incredible experience to just have those conversations. When you think about what your mothers went through and to land in Britain in 1972, Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech was only 1968. You know, what was that? And you think, what was their experience?

Well, what I'd say is my mum's experience was slightly different from Sejal's because, as I mentioned, we didn't leave during expulsion in 1972. We were forced out earlier due to Africanisation policies. And my mum was actually in India for over two years without my father, with seven of us children, and I was one years of age. So for her, I can't imagine being on my own in a foreign country, because India was a foreign country to her. She wasn't born there. She was born in Uganda in Dororo. And to have seven children in an alien country, with no, you know, no support, and my father in England trying to make ends meet to support us,

that's just horrific. That was very hard. And she was separated from her mother, my nanny-ma, who was in Uganda at the time and on her own, and she was a widow. So all this worry of being separated from her mom, her husband. So India was an alien country country and then she had to get on a get from go from India to the UK so yeah twice over and we Sejal and I talk about this which is that we're children of three continents because our grandparents both our grandparents

went to Uganda from India in the 1920s made life there our parents were born in Uganda but you know my parents went back to India and then came to the UK my you know and I went to the UK so we've like lived across three continents and you know we're proud to call ourselves children of three continents because we've got this unique your children your children of empire yeah children of empire that's exactly what you are you know this wouldn't have happened had it not been for empire so when you think about the resilience of your mother's generation it's enormous astounded yeah yeah we talk about that a lot don't we because i think of my mom who's in her 30s with four young children and one a baby and she recently said to me we were on the on the double-decker bus and there was no milk for your

little brother you know my little brother was one okay it's a lot yeah and i i would say you to what Sejal was saying there is like when I think of my mum's story when I think of my grandma's story what that does for me is it makes me think there isn't anything I can't do if my mum my grandma could find that strength and you know, bring us up, bring us up successfully in all ways. I don't just mean, you know, and give us that inner strength. There is nothing that I don't have within me and we have within us to do. And that's very true. And I think arriving in a refugee camp, not knowing the language, it's freezing cold. Women who came here had to then

go to work. They weren't used to working. They were used to being housewives with staff. They had to wear trousers. They all used to wear saris or Punjabi suits. The resilience they showed, they faced racism. You know, they brought up children in communities. They were used to living in communities where they had family nearby and friends nearby. You know, in a community where there's no Indian people we had a very lovely community where my parents settled but it must have been so difficult and I totally agree with you what they show they don't talk about it no they don't they don't say oh we were resilient my mum just says we did what we had to do it's fine we're okay now and so what did they say to you then when you when you were being packed off to go to school?

You know, my mum, the one thing she always said, and she said this all throughout her life, my mum sadly passed away in 2011, but whenever I faced any difficulty, she always said, Shraddha Iraq. And what that means is have faith. Have faith, yeah. You know, whatever that faith is, her faith was in, you know, the Hindi gods,

Jalarambapa in particular. But she always said to me, Shraddha Iraq, you know, whatever that faith is, her faith was in, you know, the Hindu gods, Jalarambapa in particular. But she always said to me, Shraddha Iraq, you know, have faith. And for me, it's that inner strength. You know, that's what our parents and our moms in particular have given us is that inner strength. And, you know, it is emotional. You know, it's brought tears to your eyes just even talking about what your family went through. And when you think about your mothers and grandmothers because they went through a traumatic experience and it's on you know you're the generation now are able to process that and talk about it but they've never been able to and that's what we're saying that you know we we've by being in this country the girl ladies

the women we've met have said by being in this country we're allowed to we can have a voice we can talk about it was our mums a voice. We can talk about it. Our mums probably didn't want to talk about it and couldn't talk about it. And I think all my grandmothers, you know, and I think for us to be able to do this project, and this is a legacy project, we're not going to stop this year. This is going to be a carry-on to make sure our history is not forgotten. But by talking about it, we're almost giving validity to their existence.

You know, they don't think they did anything big. My mum never thinks, oh, my gosh, I did this, I survived. They just think it was part of life. Yeah. And for us, it's really important that we own our stories. Because, you know, going back to my earlier point is that there's so little discussion around this subject. And when there is discussion around this subject, it's very much seen one dimensional, which is through the prism of E.D. Arulsion but this is a much bigger story you know which is going back to how did we get to how were we in uganda in the first place you know and you know why were there asians in uganda yes and and and ugandan asians in britain yes who probably speak in fact i'll give you a story. When I married my husband, who is Punjabi, but East African,

he will speak words in Swahili and think it's Punjabi. And I've had to educate him and tell him. It's been such a pleasure. Tell us where the exhibition is on. It's on Sunday, on the 23rd of October, this Sunday, at the Migration Museum in Lewisham. And it's exactly 50 years when Sejl first arrived. So come, it's celebrating Diwali.

There's authors, there's storytelling, there's loads of activities. And dancing. And we love a good dance. Hang on, you said the key words. Bit of history, bit of dancing, I'm there. And food. Oh, perfect.

Sejl and Sejl. Thank you so much. And good luck. I hope lots of people come to see the exhibition. And lots of you getting in touch about how to deal with a bad day. Going for a run, then knitting while watching a corny movie works wonders. If I have a hard day at work, I'll call my husband and say I'd like a bath. So when I get home, he runs a bath with bubbles, candles and a wee glass of whiskey on the side.

Sounds like the dream. Enjoy your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Video games can be fun. Restart on BBC Sounds. They can also be a danger to your child. We sent him to a rehab facility

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Wait, wait, what are the rules? I don't know what game we are playing. What are you going to do? Restart. Play the game. To the end. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

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