Woman's Hour - Charlotte Edwards; Jeffrey Donaldson convicted; Inclusive fashion; SEND inclusion bases

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

One of Northern Ireland's most high-profile politicians Jeffrey Donaldson is now convicted of 18 child sex abuse charges, including one charge of rape. One politician said the victims showed 'jaw dropping courage' in coming forward. We'll hear from the BBC's Tara Mills who has been in court throughout the trial. Since the start of the Women’s T20 Cricket World Cup, the England team have won all three of their group matches against Sri Lanka, Ireland and Scotland, with the West Indies next up tomorrow at the Lords. Nuala is joined by England’s head coach and former captain and player Charlotte Edwards, one of the most successful figures in the history of the women's game, and Tilly Corteen-Coleman, the 18-year-old spinner who is the youngest member of England's World Cup squad and one of the country's most exciting young prospects, to discuss the tournament and the growth of women’s cricket. An inclusive fashion show happening in Manchester this weekend is hoping to shine a light on how difficult it can be for people with disabilities, including autism, to find clothes which suit their bodies and feel good. Ellie Brown, the founder of inclusive clothing brand ReCondition, is hosting the fashion show. She chats to us. We’re also joined by Sam Stein, a YouTuber who makes content about living with autism, who shares how little changes can go a long way. The education secretary Bridget Phillipson has said inclusion bases – specialised areas in schools to support SEND pupils - are being misused to punish disruptive pupils. Later this week, the Department for Education will publish guidance for schools to tackle what they describe as the conflation of bad pupil behaviour with special educational needs and disabilities. Nuala is joined by Margaret Mulholland - SEN and inclusion specialist at the Association of School and College Leaders, and Hayley Harding a SEND parent and organiser and founder of campaign group Let Us Learn Too - to discuss how these designated SEND spaces can be used as a bridge to school life, and not as a barrier to it.

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The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the program this morning. One of Northern Ireland's most high-profile politicians, Geoffrey Donaldson, is now convicted of 18 child sex abuse charges, including one charge of rape. One politician in response said that the victims showed jaw-dropping courage in coming forward. We'll hear from the BBC's Tara Mills, who has been in court throughout that trial. Also, the Education Secretary has said that inclusion basis designed to support children with special educational needs and disabilities are being misused to punishes.

disruptive pupils. Bridget Philipson plans to issue guidance on them on Thursday. We'll hear today how parents of children with send find inclusion bases now. Also today, the women's cricket World Cup continues. The England team

have won all three of their group matches so far. I'll have a couple of stars of the game with me in the Woman's Hour studio before they face off against the West Indies tomorrow. England's head coach and former captain, a legend of English cricket, Charlotte Edwards and 18-year-old Tilly Cortine Coleman,

the youngest member of England's World Cup squad, are standing by. Plus, there is an inclusive fashion show happening in Manchester this weekend. Spotlighting adaptive clothing designed with and for disabled people. The organisers say it's very difficult to find clothes that meet their needs with style, comfort and functionality. And I want to know if you are disabled. Is this you? Can you find what you want?

What are the challenges? Have you adapted your clothing? How so? I'd really like to hear your stories. You can text the program. The number is 844-844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website

for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number, 0300-100-444. Please do get in touch. Now yesterday, the former DUP Democratic Union is party leader Sir Geoffrey Donner. was found guilty of all 18 child sex abuse charges, including one charge of rape. The former MP pleaded not guilty to the charges arising from allegations. He sexually abused two women when they were children.

But Geoffrey Donaldson was remanded into custody and now faces a lengthy prison sentence. To discuss this case, I'm joined by BBC journalist Tara Mills, who's the presenter of the State of Us podcast, who has delved into this particular trial and who attended the... the trial every day. Good to have you with us, Tara, on Women's Hour. You're very welcome. Can you tell us the significance of this conviction, given Geoffrey Donaldson's history and profile in Northern Irish politics? Well, I suppose answering that question, you have to think about the victims in this first and foremost. It's very easy to kind of fall into the trap because this is a

significant pillar of the community, if you like, who has been spectacularly found himself falling from grace. But if I just deal with the victims, first of all, watching their evidence in court was really quite extraordinary. They're growing women now. They were very open and honest about the difficulty in recollecting what happened all those years ago. And the offences happened when they were primary school children and young secondary school children. So they were confident and self-assured. But they faced some very difficult questions.

And it was interesting because we talk about this all the time and there's been some commentary online about coverage of some of the defence questions. Complaintant B, the older of the two women was asked and she was the victim of the rape. She was asked why she didn't shout out and scream, why she didn't confide. There were people you could.

have confided in. And there was a certain discomfort, particularly around the press benches about those questions. And the judge in his summing up, his honour Judge Ramsey, did say, look, just avoid falling into the trap of these myths around rape and sexual assault. And he said, there's no classic response. He said, some people will react immediately, others will take time. And he said, just because it's a late complaint doesn't mean it's a false complaint. And there's definitely a kind of move now towards some of those questions not being asked and not to anticipate. And to be fair to complain and be, she answered the question very well. She said, look, I didn't have the words for what was happening to me.

I didn't know what it was. I was not aware of sex, never mind sexual assault. I had a feeling it was wrong. And there was a very stark moment that she said, the only person I could tell about the abuse was my imaginary friend. and it was just a moment of complete silence in court. And I can understand why that that is so evocative, Tara. The anonymity of these two women is protected in law. How did the abuse come to light?

Yeah, they had both disclosed to different people, councillors, some Christian ministers. So there was some disclosure, but because of Sir Geoffrey Donaldson's high profile, because he was an MP, a party leader, he was a knight of the realm eventually. He was given his knighthood. He was on the Privy Council. Both complainants did talk about how they knew that this would not be an ordinary case. The details of this case wouldn't stay within the four walls of the courtroom,

that there was going to be massive publicity. And we've talked about that a lot in the media in Northern Ireland. There's really never been a case like this, a criminal trial. like this in Northern Ireland's history. And staying with the victims, my understanding is they were cross-examined twice. Yeah, this was really interesting because Geoffrey Donaldson's wife,

Eleanor Donaldson, was also facing charges. But just before the trial began, it was found that she would face what's called a trial of facts. So it's quite an unusual situation where she was being accused of five charges that kind of ran alongside what he was being accused of. But she wouldn't be in court,

so she couldn't be tested on anything, any of the evidence that she had given to the police, but her police recording was played to the jury. But she did have legal representation in court, which meant that her barristers could ask the complainants questions. So she couldn't be found guilty, but she could be acquitted. But as it turned out, she was fine to have carried out the acts she was accused of. So she wasn't complicit in the evidence.

abuse in terms of participating in the abuse, but the jury believed that she did have some enabling or facilitation of the abuse. And, you know, there was a tussle for the barristers on this and for the judge in his direction, because they said to the jury, not interfering in a crime is not a crime in itself. So if you see something happening in the street and you don't intervene to stop a crime happening. You can't be convicted of a crime. But if you have words or actions, there's a kind of participation in terms of enablement or facilitation. And essentially, at the end of the day, she was found to have carried out the act she was accused of. So essentially, the jury believed the two women who made the complaint and they didn't believe Eleanor Donaldson.

Do we know what may happen to Lady Eleanor Donaldson after this? It's been a question that has been asked. We'll know better, in sentencing in September. But we do know that a custodial sentence is not an option. There are some court orders in terms of a hospital order that would be open to the judge

but we'll have to wait and see what, but she definitely will not face a custodial sentence. And the sentencing interesting in September for Geoffrey Donaldson. Some will be very familiar with him. Others will not and his role within Northern Irish politics. And I suppose people now looking back

knowing that these offences took place while he was a rising figure within Northern Ireland politics? I mean, what would you say about who he was or his role really within politics during this time? Yeah, absolutely. And for a UK audience, I suppose he's best known for signing that confidence

and supply arrangement with Theresa May's government. I know we've had a lot of Prime Ministers in number 10, but if people's memory can go back to those post-Brexit negotiations. So there were 10 DUP MPs at the time. He was one of them. He was high profile. He was in that famous picture with Theresa May and Arlene Foster and Nigel Dodds and Jeffrey

Donaldson seated at the front. So for a UK audience, that's perhaps how they would know him. But for a Northern Ireland audience, he's been described as a pillar of the community. And because we live in a divided society, there are two reactions to this. There's probably very little sympathy for him in the kind of wider community. But if you look at the DUP community, this is really quite significant. He was a deeply Christian figure, a socially conservative party.

He had a very large involvement, the DUP, in running Northern Ireland and the direction of travel, particularly around social issues. But people within that community, people within his constituency who voted for him. for their whole lives have talked about feeling deeply betrayed, the sense of hypocrisy that on one hand, there were two faces of Jeffrey Donaldson. He was saying he wore a little fish Christian, fish lapel badge on his suit.

He wore it every day in court. He wore it for years when he appeared on television. So on one hand, that was the face that he presented to the public. But at the same time, he was abusing children in private. And that is a very significant fall from grace, but a significant betrayal of the trust of people who really invested their Christianity and their political vote in him.

Yes, indeed. You allude to there wearing the little fish symbol, Christian symbol on his lapel throughout the trial. How else would you say, could you describe his behaviour while in court? It's really interesting because you're watching this person who is so well-known. I mean, incredibly well-known politician. And, you know, I watched the jury, you know, sneak a glance at him in those first few days.

And you just want to have a look and think, this is a really recognisable figure. This is, you know, a celebrity, essentially. You could describe him as easy. He would be very well-known in Northern Ireland. But there wasn't a flinch. There wasn't a flicker. I mean, I was watching out even for colour in his face and neck. whenever the really gruesome details of the abuse were read out.

There wasn't a single reaction from him. He stood in the dock yesterday, obviously asked to stand up as the jury delivered, the 18 guilty verdicts for him. He stood with his hands clasped in front of him. There wasn't a single flinch. And there was a really interesting detail because the jury was sent out on Thursday and then Friday, and then they didn't come back until just after lunch yesterday. So on Friday, you know, the press is in the kind of court lobby and we're talking and we got to talk to some of the court staff.

And it was said that he had prepared to speak to the media should he be acquitted. So even that sense of how he presented himself, he gave evidence on his own behalf, which he didn't need to do. It was up to the prosecution to find him guilty. He didn't have to prove his innocence. But that sort of gives you a sense of where his head was at, even on Friday. that he was preparing perhaps a speech or some of the things he would say to the media outside the court.

And in the end, that didn't happen. In the end, he went out of court yesterday in a prison van off to Magabry prison, which ironically is in his old constituency. Really? And then the sentencing, as you mentioned, in September. How have women in Northern Ireland responded to this case? We have often covered previously to Arra, as of course you have,

Northern Ireland, it's a post-conflict society sometimes termed in that way. There can be higher levels of violence within the community that women face rather than other parts of the UK. Yeah, it's a very complicated picture we have here when it comes to violence against women and girls. But in terms of this case, there has been a massive reaction. We had a woman who was abused by her teacher at school and she was on the airwaves this morning. and she described these two women as warriors. And I think that is the sense. These are really difficult cases to take part in.

Any sexual abuse violence against women and men, these cases are very difficult for the victims. And the court process, the double cross-examination from two sets of barristers, was very difficult. So I think there is a lot of praise for them, for their courage, for their bravery. And also, it's difficult because of the past, of time and that was talked about time and time again in the courts and I remember Complainant

Day in particular saying, look my, you know, my brain is foggy about this, but I do remember and there were three specific incidents she talked about and complainant B had three specific and then all of the other charges were specimen charges because they said this is, these were only three occasions out of multiple occasions that he had abused them when they were children. And I think there is certainly a great deal of confidence about the result in terms of encouraging other women who perhaps are reluctant to come forward and other men who have been victims of sexual violence to come forward and to consider the court process as a possibility. Tara Mills, thank you so much. I do want to let people know you can go to BBC Sounds to find Tara's podcast with our colleague, Declan Harvey. It's called The State of Us, the Donaldson Sex Abuse trial. Thanks very much for joining us this morning. Thanks for your messages coming in about inclusive clothing.

Here's one having severe rheumatoid affecting my arms, wrists and elbows. It's very difficult to find bras and fitting for them. I'd like to wear a normal bras, not sports one. That's from Claire. I will ask a question about that to my guest that will be coming up later on inclusive fashion. Just going back to our story on Geoffrey Donaldson this morning, I do want to say you've been affected by anything you've heard in that interview. there are links to help and support with the BBC's Action Line Online.

Now, there is a World Cup going on at the moment. I'm not talking about the men's football World Cup. I'm talking about the Women's T20 Cricket World Cup that's happening here in England. We have been speaking about it. We continue our coverage now. The England team have made a perfect start to the tournament, winning all three of their group matches against Sri Lanka, Ireland and Scotland.

West Indies, they're up tomorrow at Lords. And I'm delighted to say, taking some time out, why not, in an air-conditioned studio. Joining me are England's head coach and former player and captain, also known as a legend, Charlotte Edwards, one of the most successful figures in the history of the women's game. And with her, Tilly, Cortine Coleman, 18 years old, a spinner, the youngest member of the England World Cup squad, and called one of the country's most exciting young prospects. Good morning to both of you. Good morning.

Well, Lottie. Congratulations on the win against Scotland. So three wins, as I mentioned. How does it feel, expected? Yeah, we obviously wanted to go, be at this point in the tournament with three wins. We've played some really good cricket, which is really pleasing.

And we've got a massive game tomorrow against the West Indies at Lords at the home of cricket. So, yeah, it's going to be a really important next couple of games for us to hopefully get that qualification to the semi-final. So what are you? you doing thinking about tomorrow apart from coming on women's hour? Well, we'll go back after this and we'll have our team meeting in preparation for tomorrow.

We've got training this afternoon, which will be very, very hot. So that's, you're out. What will you do this afternoon? So the players will have a bat. Some will bowl, some bowled last night. So making sure that everyone's just really ready, I guess just making sure their plans are in place for tomorrow. We'll have a light field on the outfield at Lords and some Lord's lunch, which is always a highlight of everyone's Lord's experience. Legendary like yourself.

Now, let's talk about a couple of the players. Freer Camp, Danny Gibson, all-rounders, people talking about their unbeaten partnership. But you did play without your captain. Nat Siverrunt. She had a calf injury. Tell me a little bit about how you're seeing your squad. Yeah, I mean, obviously the injury to Nat against Ireland

wasn't ideal but I think we've been without Nat a lot of this summer in the preparation because of this calf injury so Charlie Dean has done an amazing job as the standing captain and yeah just I think really just pleased how the team have performed certainly our batting

as well I think we've got two scores of 200 now which is excellent and as you've just mentioned Freer Kemp and Danny Gibson was an unbelievable partnership at Hedley the other night and I think everyone's very excited to watch those two play again. So this is a turnaround, right? You took over as coach. They had England,

had a really difficult Ashes defeat to Australia, which of course is a rivalry there, so maybe even a bit more bitter, a 16-0, which people have talked about, but you said things need to change, particularly around professional standards and fitness levels. What did you do? I think just clear expectations for the players around those standards, I think was just really important. The players have all brought in. I think we're in a really, really good place as a team now. I'm probably not the one to comment on it. You know, oh, I'm going to go to her in a moment. But I think, like any, in any sort of leadership position, I think you spell out the expectations. And I think everyone has really

brought into that. I couldn't be happier where the group are at at the moment. And we're playing really good cricket. We're enjoying this whole experience, which a Home World Cup is once in a lifetime experience for many players. So, yeah, things are looking really good. One aspect, which got a lot of headlines, was about the women's fitness at that time. And it must be a difficult conversation to navigate. I mean, women can have enough issues about their bodies

without the public piling on, to be quite frank. How difficult a conversation is that, and how do you navigate it? I don't think it was a difficult conversation. I think some of it was really fair. the criticism, but some of it was really unfair. When I came into, I was really pleased with where, or I was probably surprised where the group were at

because there had been a lot of criticism. But I think, like I say, you know, if you set out the expectations of where we want to go as a group, you know, we weren't in a great place after that Ashes series. And I think, you know, we're certainly in a really good place now. And I'd forgotten all about that. So you bring it back today. Like it's not been spoken about.

And that's what I said when I came in. I don't want the conversation to be around our fitness or our professional standards. I want it to be about our cricket. And I think now it's so lovely that people are talking about the cricket, the Freya Kemp's in-ins, etc., which I think is really important. That's fair enough. But I have to say, I was fascinated by the boot camp that took place at Sanders. I mean, this is two and a half days that the women were put through their paces.

Yeah, it wasn't more. around a boot camp, it was more about sort of the leadership side of it. You know, we identified a gap maybe that we hadn't probably got enough leaders within our group and I think it was a, that was the intention of the, of the I guess going to the army.

So I don't think they worked as hard as as people have made out. Tilly was there, she'll comment on that. But I think we've a lot of questions for you. But I think, yeah, like the intentions were certainly around leadership and bringing the, group together really and I wasn't there which was great I think it was it was all just

the players were there and I think they had a great time and yeah good sort of stories I mean I can totally understand it because you are put in positions situations where you've got to have teamwork if you're being put in that sort of environment and perhaps different to the game but can be applied to the game afterwards okay Tilly how was it I was unbelievable to be that I mean I struck right now at the deep end it was kind of my first experience with the England women, but I thought it was unreal. What did you do? First day was just kind of mental tasks, which isn't my strength, I must say. But I would say the second day was most physical, kind of working in with the army people and

with each other. It was mainly just about communication and kind of pushing each other to your limits. But yeah, I think it was a really valuable thing for us to do. And I think being a new player into that environment, I came away feeling much closer to the group. So I thought it was really good. Yeah, I'm sure that intensity will definitely build team spirit. I loved watching. I was looking last night at the moment when Lottie phoned you to tell you you've been selected for the World Cup squad. Where were you? I was actually just coming back from a dog walk.

I decided that I did not want to be at home during it and I knew there was an hour's slot. So I've gone on a dog walk and the call still hasn't come. We're at the end of the dog walk dragged it out as long as I could. and I was actually in the car on the way back and I got the call and I got Dad to pull over I was like I need to be on my own for this call and then yeah I was just walking down the road back home and yeah I got the news

honestly can't put it into words how it felt it's just unbelievable it's such a lovely little video to watch Lottie it must be so much fun to make that call I'm sure there's a lot of hard calls you have to make but that one must have been lovely they're the best bits of the job I left Tilly till very much the end

because I wanted to end on a high because I had some very difficult conversations leading up to that. But yeah, it was an amazing. You know, I guess I've known Tilly quite a long time and to give that news to her was really, really special. She's 18. What does she bring to the squad? Well, she's 18, but you feel like she's so much older than that.

She's so mature. I picked Tilly in the 100 Southern Brave team when she was 16, so she was the youngest player. And I was just blown away by her. her maturity, the way she played the game, how she wasn't overawed by the big occasion. So when obviously the selection came round for a Home World Cup, I knew that, you know, Tilly would be more than equipped to play in a Home World Cup and deal with all of that. And she's just grown throughout this whole comp.

She's loved it, I think, and yeah, and enjoying being around the group. So tell us what it has been like. An international debut earlier this summer, this is a one day match in Durham. You haven't been in the World Cup proper yet, but the warm. matches yes against Australia and India so walking out onto that field. What does it feel like? Yeah, again, it's just feeling you can't really describe. I just say international cricket is just so addictive.

I think since making my debut, I just craving being back out on that field. But even just being in and around the squad and watching how everyone goes about their business and just being in around training. And ultimately, yeah, I'm not on the pitch at the moment, but I've got the best seat in the house, running drinks for the girls. So, yeah, and I think to be where I am at 18 and, yeah, for, kind of Lottie to put that trust in me. And bearing in mind I hadn't had an international cap yet was really special and really reassuring.

So I'm sure hopefully if I did get that opportunity, I'd be able to take it. But ultimately I'm very happy with where I am. And I can totally understand the excitement, nerves, whatever we want to call it. Do you have a way of managing all that excitement to be able to then focus it when it comes to playing? Yeah, I think, again, that's just kind of part of professional cricket. really lucky in this environment. There's some great support networks. We've got great psychologists and yeah, great coaching staff and I've built some really good connections with some of the girls. So yeah, definitely a lot of people to lean on. But I think ultimately it's just, it's been

an unbelievable experience. So just I want to feel the energy. I want to stay present and just really enjoy it. What would be a tip that a psychologist would give in that sense when you're in that high pressure environment? I think you've just got to go back to the absolute basics of, because I think sometimes when you're under pressure, you can, your mind can go a bit foggy and I think it's just staying in that moment. I think don't overcomplicate the situation. It's a ball coming down to you

or you're just bowling, delivering a ball and try and simplify it as much as you possibly can. And that's what we've tried to say to the players is stay in the moment as much as we can enjoy it, embrace it because I think it's been, look, we've had some amazing support over the last 10 days. I'm sure we're going to now over the next week, because so we sort of see even more support for us.

So, and we're just relishing that opportunity to get out there and perform. It must be really fun, obviously, to see somebody like Tilly come up in that game that you have loved for so long. One, I'd be curious how it's changed since you were captain. And also, are you sometimes chomping at the bit on the side to try and get back in there? Well, the game has changed a lot. I mean, I played my first test match in a skirt, paid for my own Blazer. So that's, in 30 years, that's how far the games come now. No, I'm not chomping at the bit to get out there, which is a great place as an ex-player.

I am absolutely just blown away. And sometimes I sit in the dugouts or sit on the balconies. And I'm just so proud of where the game's at because, you know, 30 years ago, probably, you know, 10 people were watching England play. We're now playing in front of packed houses. We're playing at Lord's Cricket Ground. You know, when I first played at Lords, women weren't allowed in Lords. Yes.

So you think how far the games moved in that time. So I'm immensely proud. Just as the players are enjoying it, I'm just loving being part of this England team. And it's, you know, we're so, so lucky to have these opportunities. Can you imagine Tilly having to play in a skirt and blazer? No. Absolutely not. I think, yeah, I think just kind of hearing that hadn't really appreciated.

appreciated how far the game has really come. And, yeah, the support we get and the fact that we can do this as a full-time job is incredible. But I also feel like looking back at you guys doing your thing and how successful you are when you didn't have all that support and all that kind of investment in the game, it's just, yeah, it's just really inspiring. That is lovely. What makes a good coach? I could ask the same question of Tilly.

Go ahead. I think someone who builds good relationships with players, I think that's fundamental. I think, you know, really listening to the players, understanding, I guess, but setting that clear direction, I think, is really important. And I think certainly at international level, look, the players don't need as much technical or tactical support. It's about that player management

and getting the best out of every single player within the group. And, you know, we've got a very widespread group, Tilly at 18, we've got players at 35 who've played 300-odd game. So, yeah, I guess it's being able to interact with all of the players within the group and ultimately it's getting the best out of them. With tomorrow, we talked about the West Indies, you talk about moving on to the next round. Do you think England can win the World Cup?

I think we're in a really good place. I think that's been our absolute goal is to be in the final on the 5th of July. So, you know, and I think that's been the goal from the very first. ball of this comp. But we know there's some amazing teams. It's been a great comp so far. It's very tight. So we're going to have to play really, really well.

So it's amazing we're talking about the Cricket World Cup. We're talking about even winning the tournament. But Tilly, before I let you go, how did you get started? Was cricket always the game for you? When I was younger, I actually played hockey and football alongside cricket. But I started cricket because my brother was playing and I don't want him to be better than me. So yeah, that's really what got me into it. And yeah, I was playing in the boys' teams at my local.

club. And then, yeah, I kind of went through the pathways. And I think from about year six, I was really sure that cricket was there. I wanted to go down. I remember in year seven, we had a career stay at school and I went as an international cricketer. Talk about manifestation, right? So, yeah, I think from that point, I really knew what I wanted to do and set my sights on it. It's so interesting. You know, you probably read that book, Lottie at some point, Matthew Syed, and his book Bounce, which is all about, you know, he became so good because, He had a brother that he played with. And I'm hearing that from you Tilly as well.

That, you know, that sibling rivalry can be a great motivator. Oh, absolutely. And I had an older brother who I played a lot of cricket with and I wouldn't probably be where I am today without his support along the way. And we actually had a game the other night with my two nieces. They've got World Cup fever as well now. So it was a lovely moment that my two nieces were asking to play cricket in the backyard, which we did for years.

Part of your job is done. Not all of it is done. But Lottie, Charlotte Edwards, thank you so much for coming in. And also Tilly Cortin-Colman, we wish you all the best. If you do want to keep up, and why wouldn't you, with the women's T20 World Cup coverage, every match will be broadcast live on BBC Radio 5 Live, also across the BBC Sport website and also on the app.

And there are tickets, if you want to get to Lords. We went a couple of years ago, Women's Hour, had such an amazing day. And I remember it was very warm weather like it is now, so it's a great day out. It might be something you might like to do. Thank you both. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture,

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I'm always amazed by your creativity and innovation and I know this year won't be any difference. I'm looking forward to seeing. and hearing about them. Now, I want to turn to inclusion basis. A question. Are inclusion bases for children with send working in schools in England?

These are physical spaces in mainstream schools that enable specialist support. The Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, thinks not. This week, her department will publish guidance telling teachers that they should not banish misbehaving or disruptive

children to the basis as punishment. Now, many parents told the government that their children did not feel included in the wider school community while attending inclusion bases in schools. So what's going on? Let's chat about it with Margaret Mulholland, an advisor on send policy for the Association of School and College Leaders and Haley Harding, a send parent and founder of the campaign group, Let Us Learn too. Good to have both of you with us. Margaret, let me begin with you. So Bridget Philipson said, the days of using these spaces as a sanction are over. Tell me a little bit on how you see inclusion bases,

on how they're supposed to be used and how they are used. Yes, yes, yes. Really, really, really, interesting. I'm just going to hop in there, Margaret, for one moment. I'm afraid we have a little echo on your line that we're just going to try and rectify. Let me try that again. Tell me how you feel inclusion bases are being used.

So, we're... I still have the echo. Let me turn. We will get that rectified. Let me turn to Haley. I mentioned Haley that some describe the time that their child is spending in an inclusion base at a school as more, feeling more segregated than included. Can you tell me your experience as a parent of a child would send how you've seen them? So I think it's really mixed.

if your child is in a base which works well, they are game-changing and they can really help the child to be able to essentially get through the school day happily and comfortably. The problem is when you have a base which isn't correctly set up, doesn't have the staff members who are fully trained, they do become effectively sort of unofficial childcare, which they shouldn't be. They should be another learning model. And I think that's where when you see these parents, and 36% obviously it's a really high amount, which is mentioned in this article, I think it's basis like that that they're referring to, not the ones that obviously work well. How have your children used them? So minor primary school age, they're not secondary, obviously, which is what this article relates to.

But my youngest used it as a drop-in when he was in between kind of getting a diagnosis and then actually getting the full level of support he needed. it literally was the difference between him being able to stay at school and not. It was a room which he could go to decompress and just relax basically with a teacher that could do exercises with him that could help him to learn, but in the way that was most suitable for him. My other son is actually in a base but with full-time support. So he learns but does a level of integration. Tends to be more social and gives him the confidence to be able to interact with the wider world, but at the same time obviously learning in an environment that is right for him as well.

And as I mentioned, you're part of a parental group as well. What do other parents tell you about their children using them? Perhaps in secondary as well, because every secondary school is to have an inclusion base going forward as the white paper on send discussed. Yeah, really mixed. Some, like I say, have a really good experience, but there are a lot of parents that do find that their children aren't learning.

they are essentially being put in a room because they're deemed too difficult to deal with and that really does. I think I'm really pleased to see the Education Secretary calling that out because it's a practice that we've been shouting about for a long time. And if these are to be implemented in a much wider level at scale, then that practice does need to stop.

And part of that is obviously just general understanding of children's needs with send. I think if that can grow and they can be recognised in a much better way, then these bases will also be much more effective. I mean, we saw Bridget Philipson, who will issue guidance tomorrow, on their use, saying the days of using these spaces as a sanction or punishment are over. I'd be curious for your thoughts on that statement. I hope that's true.

I think there's a deep culture that we've got to recognise not all teachers, recognize when behavior that they see as bad behavior is actually send children crying out for help. And at the moment, the training isn't there with everyone. I'm not saying this is for all teachers. Some teachers are fantastic at doing this. But there are also teachers out there that do label that behavior in one box. And actually, there's a lot more to it. And I think this alone will not be the answer.

There's got to be a more of a generational shift in that way. in order for these bases to work well and for those children who actually need those bases to be identified and be given that support. Because what Bridget Philipson was also speaking about was for schools to stop conflating bad behaviour with send needs. And I was thinking about it. It is a very complex situation to try and decipher

exactly what each child might need in a various situation. I mean, how would you like to see it dealt with? What does good look like? I think good is where rather than blaming the child as an knee-jerk reaction, the teacher looks at the child and thinks what's causing this. And I've certainly seen it from having a child in the completely specialist route. That is the instinctive question that happens with a child's teacher. It's, okay, so what's happened today that's caused this? Why have they got to that place? And it's all about trying to prevent them from getting to. that level. But obviously for some more traditional approaches, it is that's bad behaviour,

we'll just remove them from the classroom. And that doesn't ever actually address what the problem is. And so I think that's where we need to be. But obviously, that's going to take, that's going to take a while to get there. But we do know, of course, that schools and teachers are really stretched with the best will in the world. I'm sure it's difficult to be able to manage every situation as perfectly as they might want. You have a son that will be going to secondary school, is my understanding. And as I mentioned, the government says mainstream secondary schools will need to offer these inclusion bases.

How have you found the experience of trying to find a secondary school that will work for him? Really, really difficult. We were due to be given us, our place named in February. we've only just got it last week after a very long stressful period of not knowing if he was even going to have a place for September. The reality is the places just aren't there for all the children right now. And there is, like I say, when I talk about it being a much wider issue, often it's not because the provision isn't right. It's just there isn't enough of it. And we've been very lucky, like my son now does have a place, but there are so many children out there

that don't have that. And he's at a base right now. He's at a base right now. could continue in that provision, but unfortunately he hasn't been able to because the basis just aren't there for September. So for his level of need. So yeah, it never ends. That's what I can say. It's a really stressful process that I was here at the beginning of his journey. Now we've just been back here again and goodness knows where I'm going to be in five years' time yet again. It just feels like a never-ending battle at times. Some of the figures that the government speaks about, the Department for Education, for example, said inclusion bases could be additional spaces within the school building or refurbishment or repurposing of existing space. For example, a spare classroom and the government will provide new guidance for schools on converting existing space into effective areas for children with send.

The ambition is underpinned by more than £3.7 billion of investment creating 60,000. thousand places for children and young people would send all over the country and marks a significant moment in reshaping schools to meet the needs of every child. It has been spoken about, as we've spoken about many times on our podcast, sending the spotlight as an integral part, really, of this white paper when they talked about how changes might come about. Thank you very much for that, Haley. I do want to bring in Margaret. We have managed to reconnect. Good to have you back with us, Margaret. I'd be curious for your thoughts on how you see inclusion bases used at the moment and how you would like to see it in the future.

Yes, good to be back. A rich array of opportunities, really, I think. We're really keen to see inclusion bases, as Haley described, sort of being used more often where appropriate. But I think we were quite surprised by the Secretary of State's comments in such a sort of negative framing in that she was sort of recognizing that where they're not supported effectively, where there isn't funding, outcomes will be poor. Well, headteachers are really, really concerned about that.

We recognise that it relies on people, practice, capacity. And we are hoping that actually that the announcement that the Secretary of State made and the way she framed her concerns about what might happen in, secondary schools, or what is, she says, happening in secondary schools, which isn't behaviour that we recognise. And that actually she's recognising the importance of quality, not just of place and space. And I think in the reforms that we're working towards, there's been a huge focus on more provisions, more inclusion bases.

and we don't have a good data map of where they exist at the moment. But I think as Haley highlighted, it's not about having more. It's having the most appropriate provision. And that's what school leaders are really keen to establish. So tell me, I ask the same question to Haley. What does good look like in your eyes? I think it really does enable school to reach into its resources and accommodate the needs of the children that it's sort of.

So in some cases, that might be an inclusive service rather than an actual space. It might be that we have specialist teachers in the school. And the children occasionally are supported in there for pre-teaching or at lunchtime provision where they're needing to have scaffolded support to make good friendships. But in fact, schools are really keen not to withdraw children from the classroom unless that is appropriate. And at the other end of the scale, we've got those really what have been described as specialist units, which take a phenomenal amount of resource. And you mentioned, Nebula, that actually what the DFE were offering was capital funding. So that's for buildings, for spaces.

But actually, where we have a really effective resource, and I was visiting one in Oxfordshire recently, where there is a teacher on the leadership scale in that resource, there is a main source. There is a main scale teacher and 40A's to support seven young people who have highly complex significant communication and interaction needs and they have a one to three ratio of staff. Now that for school leaders, for really financially stretched school leaders, is what we want to see, but merely giving us funding to create a new space

where we can do that, where there are spaces to be utilised, isn't sufficient. I mean, what they have talked about is inclusion bases from the white paper. Inclusion bases are intended to replace the current terms

send unit, resource provision, pupil support unit and take the forms of support bases providing targeted support or specialist bases providing specialist support. I mean, is that a move in the right direction?

Yes, I think we need to recognise where we want a school's provision to sit. So the school wants it to be purposeful. They want it to meet the needs of their particular community. So I think the opportunity for specialist bases in a local area, you know, I was listening to something the other day where in Holland, you are able to go to school 15 minutes on a bike away from where you live. We want to be able to service our local community.

But actually, if it requires that level of funding for a specialist base, that's going to be really contingent on collaborative. working in the local area and the funding to enable the staffing, the workforce development and the capacity building, so we can really do a fantastic job

the way many schools are doing currently. And that's why we think we're really quite surprised by the announcement. Let us see what comes tomorrow when it comes to guidance, Margaret. Thursday, actually, forgive me, I'm a day ahead of myself on Thursday. It was due to be released earlier this week,

but there will be guidance on inclusion, part of, I think the comments that came in advance of that. Margaret Mulholland, advisor on Send Policy for the Association of Schools and College Leaders, and Haley Harding, a send parent and founder of the campaign group. Let Us Learn 2. Thank you both so much. I want to read some of your messages that are coming in in relation to our next item. I have type 1 diabetes, this is Lucy, and have an insulin pump. So when wanting to wear a dress, I have to cut a hole for the cannula to pass through

so I can clip the pump to a belt. This way I can use the pump without having a bulge under my dress or having to lift my dress to adjust my insulin levels. So that's one. Because the question we're really asking this morning, how often do you think about your seam

or the design of your denim or the scratchiness of your shirt? Because for many of us, what we wear impacts how we feel. Maybe smart, relaxed, creative, sexy, free. But clothes can also make us uncomfortable or restricted. And finding clothes that fit and feel good can be a challenge.

This can be particularly true if you have sensory needs or a neurodivergent. And there is an inclusive fashion show happening in Manchester's Aviva Studios this weekend, hoping to change some of that by showcasing clothes that are inclusive. The woman behind the show is Ellie Brown, the founder of Recondition, which is an inclusive fashion brand. She joins me now. Welcome to Women's Hour, Ellie. Hi, thanks so much for having me. We also have Samantha Stein, who has a YouTube channel where she makes content about her autism and neurodiversity, including on topics such as autism and clothing.

Good morning, Sam. Good morning. Thanks for having me on. So I have a board full of messages here coming in about how people have adapted their clothing or what they need to do. It could be somebody, as we mentioned, is neurodivergent or sensory issues. It could be another disability that's physical, that that requires that. But what happened to you? You found it recondition, I understand, after an injury yourself. Yeah, exactly.

So about four years ago, I suffered a break to my ankle that basically opened up my eyes to accessibility. I think a lot of people who don't have a disability themselves or don't have someone immediately close to them may not realize how inaccessible, lots of different things in our life can be not just clothing. And that was definitely myself. And really the injury just completely changed my perspective on life, whether it be how I look at venues when I go out and about in Manchester

or whether it be how I look at the way that clothing is designed. So, yeah, it was a big turning point for me. And as a fashion student at the time, it was always going to be something where I'm going to come back to how play that clothes are designed. So yeah, that was really how it started. There you go. The scales fall from your eyes. Now you are holding this fashion show at the weekend, 16 models, all of whom are disabled,

neurodivergent or chronically ill. There's a specially constructed runway, I understand, wearing clothes, which you've designed to fit their needs. Some might say, what is inclusive fashion? Give me an example of the design. Yeah, inclusive fashion at its core is just taking into account what the whole demographic of society looks like rather than this very binary view

that a lot of the larger fashion companies operate with really. They kind of have a situation where they tell people what they want from their fashion rather than actually asking them what they want. So we've kind of changed that and switched it up, turned it on its head and we kind of operate in a way

where we basically ask people, what do you need from your clothes? I'm getting lots of that from my listeners, but I understand that you did adapt denim, for example. Yes. What did you do? That was our first product that we launched as a brand because it was one that consistently,

everyone was telling us is so inaccessible. That classic fastening that you see on most denim that you get on the high street with the metal button is difficult for most people, even if you've just had feeling a bit bloated, that day or had a big meal the day before it's quite hard to do up anyway, let alone if you're thinking about having limb difference or dexterity issues. So the biggest thing for us was switching out that fastening, how can we make it much easier for people? And it's really simple fixes,

like swapping the button for a popper or adding a pull, a nice big ring to the zipper so it's easier to grip onto for people. A lot of it's really not rocket science, but it does involve having conversations with people who have access needs when it comes to the clothes to help you understand. A couple of messages. Pauline says I have scoliosis. My tops rise up on my back, so I live in leggings and

loose tops, but find tops with longer backs just not in the shops or going out of fashion. Another, a simple lack of pockets is the single biggest problem in bought clothes. Deafness and diabetes has required a supply of detachable pockets to hold glucose monitors, peppermits, hearing

devices and having to split and oversee side seams to allow threading through the mic and amplifier leads. You see these things that people are thinking about that perhaps not everyone would be aware of. Sam, let me bring you in here. Tell me a little bit about you and how you found clothes or not found clothes which help you feel good. Well, I was diagnosed as an adult with autism and also later ADHD and this was in my early 30s. I. after spending basically a lifetime of feeling uncomfortable and sort of blaming myself for it, thinking I must be the problem because everyone else seems to be fine.

And of course, in my youth, the UK has, I think the majority of children are wearing school uniforms. So I spent, you know, we were talking about children having behavioral problems in school. I wonder how much of that is also from the discomfort of being in itchy uniforms. You know, my uniforms were very itchy. And the lack of choice, I went to very traditional schools, I think that is something that is improving, but it's certainly not there yet.

And something to consider when you're talking about children in schools, which is something that I don't really hear people saying is that they may be uncomfortable. For me, as an adult, you know, I'm very fortunate to be self-employed. I more or less get to where would I like. And I still have problems. And I think this is something that Ellie touched on is that the big companies, which now in the last few decades, you know, we have only a few companies which are really dictating what clothing is being made.

throughout the world. You know, I'm so glad skinny jeans are out of fashion, right? You know, we've entered a new era where suddenly I can go into a shop and the trousers there will be comfortable. But we had a good 10 years where we were all sort of uncomfortable. It was very hard to find something that was comfortable there. So there is an issue there with these companies telling us what's available and only providing those things for us. Yes, and in certain fabrics, for example. I had a listener earlier, Sam, that you may not have heard who talked about how uncomfortable bras are and trying to find them for her with her specific needs. And I understand you have a YouTube channel, you make content about, for example, going shopping

as a special kind of hell. But I believe you've also talked about how uncomfortable bras can be or sometimes how brands are not thinking about that. I mean, it's been, you know, I'm 40 years old. It's been a lifetime journey to find something comfortable. And I'd love to be able to say as, you know, an expert content creator that I found the perfect solution to this. Unfortunately, I haven't. And I think also we have to talk about the fact that bras are so expensive these days. And you can't just go into a shop and try things on, really. A lot of us relying on online ordering, which is inaccessible in kind of a different way.

I mean, the bra I'm wearing, I think costs 80 euros. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that. It's extremely comfortable. and I thought to myself, finally, I will never have to think about this ever again in my life. And of course, it wears out after three months and I think, well. Yeah, I won't even talk to you what might happen when you get to perimenopause age, but that's a whole different story. But you talk about the sensory issues as well.

Can you describe that a little bit? I am a person that tags really bother me and I kind of have a special little unpicker to do that with my clothing. But you also think about that and think about color. Bring us into your world. Well, the thing is, I think a large majority of autistic people also have a sensory processing disorder. They do go hand in hand, although not everyone does. I think the little unpick of your clothes tags is really a life hack for us.

If you don't know, if you're trying to get them out and scissors, get one of these little things. I do not know what they're called. But it's also a balance because it's not also about feeling comfortable for a lot of people. who are working especially having to maintain a kind of professional level of respectability. It is important how you present yourself and how you'll be perceived. So you can say masking is often seen as a bad thing. Masking can also be a good thing for autistic people to maintain employment. And being able to find appropriate clothes that you feel comfortable in and that represent

yourself is a big challenge. And I mean, even today, I thought about what I was going to wear today. I am wearing a synthetic top and I was thinking, is this going against my values when I talk about how I love to wear natural fibres but it's the reality

that I can sometimes, I have to compromise between what I want to look like and especially in a professional setting and what is actually comfortable, I'm going to take this off straight away when we get off air, right? Because I see you on a video

and I do see very bright colours actually kind of mirrored in your background as well so I can see that you are probably attracted to kind of peaches, oranges, is yellow, green. Yeah, I mean, I do have quite a peachy wash in this room. But I am more of a sensory seeker than many autistic people. And I think this is something that's really important to say

is that there is no one type of clothing for autistic people. Yes. Some of us will be sensory seekers and will love to have texture and color and prints. Some people will want to go like the Steve Jobs roof, you know, black tartar necks. And I have to leave it there, but so interesting to speak to you. And I do want to let people know that was Sam Stein we were listening to. Ellie Brown, the founder of Recondition, will have the fashion show at Manchester's Aviva Studios on Saturday.

And our crack team, a seam ripper, or quick unpick is that little tool that Sam and I like to use so much. I'll see it tomorrow. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Zandi, happy anniversary. What are you talking about? Have I missed something?

Yes, Zandi, you have. We are over a year into making WhatsApp docs. You didn't even get me a card. Is it really over a year? It is. Look at all the episodes we've done, how to look after our feet, our shoulders, our hips, our teeth. We've explored snoring, cholesterol, the immune system, endometriosis. All with the help of expert guests.

I think it's fair to say we have plundered the world of health and well-being, equipping ourselves and our listeners. With the best information out there on how to look after our minds, our bodies, our souls even. And we're not stopping, aren't we, Chris? We're most certainly not, son. We have a lot of new topics coming up, from tinnitus to acne, crying, male, fertility, we are holding steadfast in our mission to sort facts from fiction, debunking wellness myths along the way, and you can find all of our previous episodes of WhatsApp docs in the feed on BBC Sounds. And don't forget to subscribe on BBC Sounds and turn on the notifications

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