Woman's Hour - Chef Marie Mitchell. NUS President Larissa Kennedy. The real Audrey Hepburn. Power List: Our Planet

Episode Date: November 26, 2020

The Island Social Club was created to fill the void of what was once London’s thriving Caribbean social scene. Chef, writer and co-founder Marie Mitchell explores Caribbean food and culture while creating a space for second and third generation British people of Caribbean descent to connect with their heritage. Marie talks abut food and identity and shows us how to Cook the Perfect Roti, one of the cornerstones of Caribbean cuisine.After a difficult first term of online tuition, lockdowns and social distancing it’s been a University experience like no other for young people.. The Government has issued guidelines about how they plan to get students home in time for Christmas which include a mass testing programme on campuses to reduce risk of infection. NUS President Larissa Kennedy joins Nicola to discuss university life in the time of Covid and the testing strategy.Audrey Hepburn was a legendary star of Hollywood’s Golden Age – infamous for her acting, as well as her style. But what do we know about the real woman behind the image? We hear from Helena Coan the director of a new film Audrey which features never before seen footage of her life, and Audrey’s granddaughter Emma Ferrer. The Woman’s Hour Power List: Our Planet has highlighted the breadth of work that goes into helping the environment, and today we feature two women in the finance sector. Caroline Mason is no. 16 on the List and is the CEO of the Esmée Fairbain Foundation, which finances lots of environmental and social projects. Catherine Howarth is no.21 and is the CEO of ShareAction, which persuades investors to think more sustainably.Presenter Nicola Beckford Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast with me, Nicola Beckford, on Thursday 26th November. Good morning. On today's Woman's Hour, a new film celebrating the life of Audrey Hepburn reveals never-seen-before footage of the Hollywood icon. We meet two more high flyers from the Woman's Hour power list, Our Planet, and chef Marie Mitchell explores Caribbean food, identity, and how to cook the perfect roti. Now, don't forget,

you can contact us via the website on Twitter or Instagram at BBC Woman's Hour, and you can text Woman's Hour on 84844. But first, it's been a difficult first term for university students this year, with courses moved online, social distancing and many forced to self-isolate due to the pandemic.

This morning, we heard students could be awarded financial compensation for lost teaching time during the first lockdown, after the higher education complaints Watchdog told one university to pay up. With Christmas a matter of weeks away, the government has already issued guidelines which it hopes will ensure that more than a million students in England will get home safely. This includes on-campus mass testing to reduce the risk of students transmitting the virus to their parents. But the National Union of Students say they're yet to hear how it will be carried out. Well, Larissa Kennedy is president of the NUS. Larissa, welcome to the programme. Good morning, Nicola. Thanks for having me.

Good morning. Now, what details have students been given about how testing will work? You know, I think when it was announced that there was this big plan to get students home safely over the winter break, everyone breathed a bit of a sigh of relief, because of course, this is something that we were calling for, that students have been calling for. But speaking to students, even up to yesterday, many were saying that they just received information about what was due to happen, with others saying that they'd still receive no communication from their institutions about how this is going to happen. And given that this is due to be rolled out en masse next week, it's incredibly concerning.

But, you know, sadly, unsurprising, given that it's so late in the day and this plan came, even though we absolutely knew that students needed to get home over the winter break. And we knew that this plan should have been in place a long, long time ago. Well, the government says that tests will be offered to as many students as possible before they travel home for Christmas, with universities in areas of high prevalence prioritised. What's your response to that? I think when we're talking about mass testing, we should be talking about universal access because, you know, students have had such a difficult term, you know, they fought to get to these universities throughout the A-level fiasco.

Then they got there and within days for some of these students, all of their teaching was moved online. You know, we've seen these waves of rent strikes. Students have had so much uncertainty. So much has been up in the air. It's time for some clarity and it's time to make sure that that universal access to testing is secured. This can't just be some sort of piecemeal approach to some students getting access and other students not. And if we want to keep not only students safe, but also staff and community safe, then it's really, really important that we do this in a whole scale way. I mean, it is a voluntary test. How compliant do you think students will be? I mean, we've got we've got parents actually emailing

us saying that their children may not want to take the test in case it's positive and they end up having to self-isolate. What do you think of that? I mean, I think it is a real shame that because the guidance and the plan came so late from government, it's left us in a situation where if a student does test positive, that does potentially impact their ability to get home in time for Christmas and things. But from the vast majority of students, I'm hearing that they really, really welcome the opportunity to get tested because, you know, as I say, there's been so much that's been out of their control in this term. And, you know, at the end of the day, everyone wants to stay safe. They

want to keep everyone around them safe as well. So I think students really are taking the opportunity to prioritise safety really seriously, particularly at a time when it feels as though the government and universities have deprioritised student safety. Can I just be really clear on something? Are you saying that absolutely no information at all has been given to students across the country about how testing will be

carried out because the government guidelines, because I read through them last night, they've been up there for, you know, for a while. I mean, there is a complete mismatch. So where some students have received information, other students have had absolutely no communication about what's going to happen. And this is kind of the issue where the government has been, has taken quite a step back when it comes to higher education, meaning that, you know, it is kind of luck of the draw in terms of which institutions students are at as to whether they have information about such essential testing. And at the end of the day, it then comes down to on the ground capacity for individual institutions, as opposed to the government really stepping in and making sure that this is a concerted effort across the country.

Let's have a look at the window to get tested. This window, the window to get tested, self-isolate and still be able to make it home starts next Thursday and ends on the 9th of December. How confident are you that that will work? I mean, we raised quite a few concerns with this travel window, given that, you know, we've already seen the prices for travel hike in that time. There have been institutions who have actually had to step in and provide supplements to students in terms of being able to even afford to get home. It just feels like there are a lot of elements of this that weren't thought through, particularly for students who have jobs or caring responsibilities during term time and other things that mean that this travel window just doesn't work for them. We need to see, you know, further information about flexibility and how this is going to work for those students

for whom the travel window just isn't viable. So we do welcome the efforts to get students home, but it came too late and it didn't include students in the conversation about how we do this in a way that keeps everyone safe, but is also feasible and viable for students. Let's look now at the impact of tuition being carried out online. You mentioned that it's almost entirely going online in some cases for some students. How has that had an impact on the student experience? I mean, this year has really been compounding the existing student mental health crisis. And so when we've been having the mass move to online learning, which of course we needed to do in order to keep people safe. But we've also seen that not

be supplemented with additional mental health support. And so you've got students in some cases who are spending 23 hours a day in a shoebox room, not really meeting anyone. They're in a new place, living alone independently for the first time in their lives. And there's just not been a significant investment in mental health services to support those students. Can I just come in there because I think the government would actually dispute that they're saying that they're going to provide three million pounds to fund student space a new mental health support platform that's a move in the right direction isn't it? Of course it is a move in the right direction but it's never going to be adequate

to have an online platform and where you know to be quite frank student space is welcome again we welcome it but it's not enough you know student space is a platform where it's signposting people to existing mental health services on their campuses and as well as some additional you know phone lines and things like that but that's never going to be sufficient when we already have an existing student mental health crisis. But the government would also say that they've provided £9 million to mental health charities. And they've also clarified that providers could use existing funds of £23 million per month. That's between April and July and £256 million for the next academic year. That's actually looking at hardship support. So they would argue that they're actually addressing this. April and July and £256 million for the next academic year.

That's actually looking at hardship support. So they would argue that they're actually addressing this. Nicola, I'm sure they would. But, you know, when I'm hearing from students on the ground who are losing members of our community to student suicide, honestly, can those ministers look me in the face via Zoom, of course, and tell me that that is going to be sufficient when we're losing members of the student community. There is under no circumstance, in my opinion, a justifiable time when a student leaves home to go and access education and doesn't return home. So I think if we're talking about whether or not it's enough, if we're still losing students,

then no, it's not enough. Let's just take a look at student finances now. They can't get jobs. I understand that they're relying increasingly on food banks. Tell me more about that. Yeah, it's been an incredibly difficult term, you know, for students navigating, who have been incredibly hard hit financially throughout this pandemic you know as you mentioned it's been very difficult where students would ordinarily get part-time jobs just to make ends meet because we know that the the kind of maintenance loans that are available to students barely make rent if at all um so it's been really difficult for those students where they'd ordinarily work in things like leisure and retail and hospitality.

And of course, with the impending recession, those jobs just aren't there. And it's also added on top of that with students yo-yoing in out of the student lockdowns. It's been very, very difficult for students to even seek work as well. So, you know, lots of students have found themselves in really precarious financial positions, I think, which has in many ways led to lots of the waves of student rent strikes that we've seen, where students are saying, we just can't afford this, we just can't keep going on like this. And actually, I've heard from more students than I ever would have thought who have had to access food banks and things like that. So it has been a really, really difficult term financially for students across other sectors where, you know, staff members have received furlough, although, you know, people may argue that things have been inadequate, but where others have received furlough

and other financial support, students have received nothing directly. They've received no additional support to recognise how hard they've been hit this term. And so, you know, at NUS, we've been calling on the government to provide a financial support package to students because we know that so many of our members desperately need it. I want to end on this question, the news, this morning's news that students could be awarding compensation for lost teaching time. What do you make of that? I mean, of course, students are rightfully angry about the fact that they were essentially sold a lie about what was going to happen this term, about the possibility of face-to-face teaching. And now, you know, they're seeing and feeling as though they've been exploited, you know,

for universities, for government to collect fees and to collect rent and so it is um welcome that there's a recognition that students deserve um to be supported throughout this uh but do i think that you know it's adequate to do this in a piecemeal way where it's institution by institution rather than recognizing the wider structural issue here no i don't think that's good enough i I think we need to be recognising that there's a collective student dissatisfaction with what's happened this year. There's a collective student anger, in fact, if I may. And I think we need to be redressing this in a holistic way, rather than doing this in an institution by institution basis. Okay, Larissa Kennedy, President of the National Union of Students. We must leave it there.

Thank you for your time this morning. And on tomorrow's programme, we'll be talking to the university's Minister, Michelle Donilon. So do get in touch if you have any questions or comments. Right, next this morning, the legendary star of Hollywood's golden age, Audrey Hepburn, was loved for her acting, her style and humanitarian work. But what do we really know about the woman behind the image? Well, the actress is the subject of a new film called Audrey, which features never before seen footage of her life. I'm joined now by the film's director, Helena Cohn and Emma Ferrer, who's Audrey Hepburn's granddaughter.

So Helena, why did you want to make a new film about Audrey? I wanted to make a film about Audrey because I think she's the classic example of a woman who's kind of been reduced to a 2D portrait. And I wanted to tell a story of who she really was and the story that people don't know about her complex life, her challenging life and how she kind of became the icon that she became. She's often seen as this kind of perfect image, this kind of paragon of perfection and beauty. And I think that's a really simplified and quite insulting portrait.

So I just wanted to tell the truth of who she was and the power that she had. Were you a fan of her work prior to the film? Yes, I was. Since a very young age, I was born the year after she died, but I used to watch My Fair Lady a lot as a child. My mum loves the film. And I just got to know about her more and more as I grew up and I just became

aware of her because firstly because of the way she looked I kind of saw a different option for women to look that was different from kind of blonde bombshells and for me I just connected with her for her looks but also with her humanitarian work and just her general energy I just felt I felt really inspired by her. Absolutely you know and talking about her energy she was really famous of course for her style her collaboration with Givenchy how has she influenced the world of fashion? I think I mean the the little black dress in Breakfast at Tiffany's is probably the most famous dress of all time. And I think she's often seen as being just Givenchy's muse, which of course she was, but she was also his collaborator.

They worked together on everything. She fought with him to sublimate the little black dress. She understood what the camera would and wouldn't see. So I think she's influenced fashion hugely. As you see in the film, she sketched her own designs. She worked with Givenchy to build these designs that she knew would suit her and would influence other women as well. I think maybe more of a golden Hollywood actress, she still has an influence on our fashion today. And what can you tell us about her family background? Because it's a really interesting family background.

Yeah, so she was born into an aristocratic family. And then when the war happened, that all fell apart. And she suffered hugely during the war, she almost died of starvation. And her father was a, and her mother were Nazi sympathisers. Her father left the family to join the British Union of Fascists in 1935 when Audrey was six. And that really affected her for the rest of her life. And that's kind of what the film really focuses on is how this relationship with her, with her very difficult father, influenced her for the rest of her life. Indeed. And turning to you now, Emma, can you expand on that a little bit for me, please?

How did those issues in her early life really affect her? Well, I think that this is such a poignant film because, as Helena has so eloquently said, we have the opportunity to see a very vulnerable figure who really more than anything else wanted to achieve this, this, this paternal figure in her life that had, you know, had disappeared and sort of walked out the door and struggling with the

subsequent feelings of abandonment and, and trying to sort of fill this hole, whether it was through relationships with men that sometimes were successful and sometimes weren't, or just really turning it into an incredible willingness and desire to give back in her UNICEF years. So I think it just gives us a really interesting, as you know, I'm a spectator as well, I never got to know her. Yes, I got to know her through family anecdotes and whatnot. But to really understand the motivations of a figure of her stature, I think is so important for the public eye. And you touched on it, Emma, you know, the fact that you were born shortly after she died. How aware

were you of her incredibly legendary status whilst you were growing up? There was such a dichotomy, and it's still a work in process trying to understand who she is, and then trying to sort of extrapolate what that means for me. But really growing up, you know, I was faced with on the one hand, getting to know her through iconography, the way everyone else gets to know her, but at the same time, sort of experiencing a personal relationship with her through my father, which has sort of been the most beautiful, the most beautiful aspect of it for me. It really, it's fascinating to see in my father the way that he himself over the years, his entire perspective is always, it's fascinating to see in my father the way that he himself over the years his entire perspective is always it's always in evolution and it's always growing and I think

we're all in the family constantly understanding what she means to the world in new ways and it's something that sort of always keeps giving which I'm really grateful for. And talking about you know what she means to the world, why do you think she was so well loved then? It's such a difficult question. You know, my father always says that we see her as one of us. And this is something that he says in the film. Rather than, you know, an Anita Ekberg or an Elizabeth Taylor,

we sort of have this grandeur and this this immensity to them whereas Audrey and I think that it's through the suffering and the pain that because of that that she brings to the screen that we sort of identify with her in a way personally I'm not sure if that's that's necessarily what I would how I would sum the question up but I'm not really sure. You know, it's really, as I said, it's something of which my opinion is always changing. But ultimately, I think she was a good person. And I think that it just comes through unmistakably on camera. It absolutely does. It absolutely does.

Helena, turning to you again, can you explain how popular and successful she was? Emma mentioned some of her contemporaries, Elizabeth Taylor. Could you put Audrey's success in some sort of context, please? I think Audrey, when I would talk about Audrey's success, I think what's so fascinating about her is just how that's prevailed over the years and I think a lot of women at the time and this this isn't to to say anything bad about them but it was they were kind of created through the male gaze and they were often kind of hyper sexualized and and that was their identity whereas Audrey was was powerful in a different way she exerted power um totally differently.

And I think that's, you know, visions of, particularly male visions of sexuality change throughout the ages. So I think she's so successful and so prevailing because she stood for something timeless, which I believe in what the film explores is that she stood for love and the power of love to change the world.

And that is a timeless and everlasting concept which I think ultimately made her so successful and you know she was the first actress on a completely different spectrum she was the first actress to earn a million dollars along with Elizabeth Taylor she was incredibly successful at the time and I think it was also because it was post-war women were looking for other ways to be because because you know, they were working in a totally different way because men had gone to war. After the war, they wanted to see a different way to exist. And I think Audrey connects with women maybe more than men because she provided a different example for them, which made her so successful. Emma, turning to you again. In the film, you say that the best kept secret was that she was so successful. Emma, turning to you again, in the film, you say that the best kept secret

was that she was so sad. What do you mean by that? You know, we, and what I think the film is, why I think the film is so important is that, as Helena said, we have the chance to deconstruct the myth of Audrey Hepburn. And she is, in fact, this projection, I think, of what we want her to be up until the point where we can really look into her deepest desires, which were essentially to be loved. And the truth is that whether it was from the moment that her father walked out the front door or whether it was from the moment that her father walked out the front door or whether it was

from you know a series of failing relationships or living through an immense amount of struggling in world war ii she really i think she carried a a sadness that i think she she she very successfully hid but um there are a certain few a certain moments where it comes through and Helen has been so, so amazing and successful at finding those moments and at letting them, you know, exposing them, not in sort of a voyeuristic way, but in a way of saying, this is what happened to the person that we all love. And, you know, the other thing I say in the film is that

for the person who is most loved in the world, she had experienced such a lack of love, which truly is sort of the real nature of that sadness. Emma, very briefly, what would you say her legacy is? I think her legacy is just simply, you know, generosity. I think had her legacy been solely the fact that she made a million dollars on a film or the fact that she, you know, was at the pinnacle of Hollywood's golden years, have sort of fallen back into the horizon, whereas what she left behind through her work with children, and that is just truly timeless. And I think that it paved the way for other stars,

Princess Diana included, to come after her and have this marriage of worlds on the screen that people had not seen before. I think that that will live on forever. Indeed. Emma Farrow, Helena Cohen, thank you. And Audrey is released on DVD and digital download from the 30th of November this year.

Right, still to come, Cook the Perfect with Marie Mitchell, co-founder of the Island Social Club. But first, let's look ahead to something on tomorrow's programme. How does it feel to reach the age your mum was when she died? In a new series, women talk to Jo Morris about a secret fear that's been playing on their minds. This is Rachel. When I was waiting for the ambulance to arrive when my mum died,

that's a really vivid memory. And I think it was in that time that I decided this was it for me. I had this sort of thought in my head of being older and chatting to someone and saying, oh yeah, my mum died when she was 14. She wasn't dead at this point. We just found her at home, but she wasn't actually dead. And I think that was me sort of deciding then that that was how life was going to be. And that was how life was going to be for me.

It's really odd. You know, I had my first son when I was 35. Deep down, you can't sort of shift that ticking. Time is not on your side and time's running out. And you can hear Rachel's story tomorrow. Now, don't forget, you can contact us via the website or on Twitter or on Instagram at BBC Woman's Hour or text 84844. And if you missed the live

programme, you can catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app. Right, I'm delighted to introduce you now to two more women on the Women's Hour Power List, Our Planet. Now, this year's list highlights the breadth of work that goes into making the environment a better place. Today, we turn to the world of finance. Caroline Mason is CEO of the Esme Fairbairn Foundation and Catherine Howard is CEO of ShareAction. So, Catherine, turning to you first. What roles does the finance industry play in promoting the natural world and addressing the causes and impacts of climate change, Caroline. Hello. So we've come a long way, I think. I mean, I don't know about Catherine, but 15 years ago, she and I were already banging this drum about the importance of finance and business and we've seen a slightly sort of well-meaning but slightly odd

I think so we've made great progress we've got the Green Finance Institute we've got the Impacting Institute environmental and social impacts are now mainstream rather than niche which is what they used to be however However, going forwards, I genuinely believe that we will not achieve this by a tweak or a variation of the existing financing system. I think we really need what I call Finance 2.0, where businesses and investors are accountable for the impacts that they have on people and nature. And what we also need, I think, is people power.

So all of us contributing, whether we're consumers, whether we're investors in our day-to-day life, because what we buy sends a message to companies about what they produce, which then investors will invest in. So for me, the future is incredibly hopeful because I think if we can bring together all of these things, sort of all hands to the pump, I think finance could be an absolutely critical element of solving these issues. Caroline, when you say that when you buy something, it sends a message, what do you mean exactly by that? Well, consumer demand is an incredibly powerful tool. So if we all continue to buy wet wipes, for example, people will continue to produce wet

wipes. And then investors will say, oh, you can make a lot of money out of producing wet wipes. And wet wipes are actually really, really quite a shocking example of a product that is incredibly bad for the environment. So that's what I mean, that we have to think about this in the round and we all have to think at every level about our actions. You know, we can, as people, we can talk to our pension providers, for example. We can look at our day-to-day life. Should we use the car a bit less? Should we not borrow the gardening? Should we buy peat-free compost? All of these things add up. power alongside finance targeted at genuinely nature-friendly initiatives and solutions, I think we can go a long, long way to solve a lot of these problems.

Interesting. It's honey to you now, Catherine. Share Action is one of the projects funded by the foundation. What does it do? Hi. Well, we're a registered charity and our mission is to try and make the finance system a force for good. As Caroline said, there's unbelievable power

in our finance system. Our pension funds are the biggest investors in the world. They hold shares in the banks that finance businesses all across the world. And so what ShareAction is trying to do is alert millions of people to the fact that in paying into a pension fund every month, they're contributing to a system that's shaping our economy, shaping our world, shaping our world shaping our communities and actually the power that rests in that system is one that they can influence because it's their money after all and um when we apply pressure on the big decision makers the top decision makers in the pension fund industry and in the banking

sector we've shown um lots through our own campaigns at Share Action, but many others are showing it too, that decisions can change. I would share Caroline's optimism, actually, that the finance system is really waking up, both to its responsibility to protecting our natural world, but also to its power to make a positive difference. We are in a climate emergency and we actually won't get out of the situation without making finance an ally and bringing those powerful decision makers in finance on our side to protect our natural world. But it won't happen without being really organised and applying pressure on the sector. So what we do at Share Action is all sorts of different tactics, including, for example, ranking the banks

on their climate performance. And none of the banks like to be at the bottom of a ranking. So it really gets the attention of the board members when we rank how good they are on this stuff. So and, you know, it's really very possible to change the minds of decision makers when you apply the right kind of campaigning tactics. And if we can get that done, then finance really can help, as Caroline said, solve the environmental crises that we face. You mentioned that the industry is waking up. How challenging has it been to persuade bankers that they do need to change? crises that we face. You mentioned that the industry is waking up, but how challenging

has it been to persuade bankers that they do need to change? Oh, it's been quite a struggle. But actually, you know, one of the things that's really encouraging is how many women are beginning to kind of make it to the top of the banking system. So the first woman ever to run a major British bank is Alison Rose at NatWest. And she came in at the very beginning of this year. And one of the first things she did was introduce really quite courageous and highly committed positions on climate change and what NatWest will refuse to finance. It's not going to be financing fossil fuel companies that don't have a really serious plan to align with the goals of the Paris Climate Agreement. So it's not easy. You know, there's a very old school macho culture that still exists in the finance sector that has, you know,

been very blind to these kinds of issues for decades. But that's changing, that culture is changing, and women are a really important part of that. Would you agree, Caroline? I absolutely would agree. There is a tipping point. I think we're at a tipping point. But what I, you know, and Catherine's right,

the finance sector has been used to a model for the past 40 years, which works very, very well for finance, but has had some really some unintended consequences, both socially and environmentally. Effectively, it's been quite a quite an extractive system, both environmentally and socially. So we need to turn that around and we need to make sure that social and environmental issues are absolutely at the core of a new finance system or a finance system for the future. But I would say also what we do, for example, as it may, is make sure that we work alongside and support those who absolutely understand these issues that's in them around the environment or social justice to make sure that they are core to the design of any future products and strategies around investment. Because otherwise we're in danger of just tweaking what's currently there. And that won't be enough. So we really need to be – these products and these investments for the future need to be far more co-designed with people

who really understand the issues. And that's not something that the finance system has done really before. So it will be tricky, but we have got to do it. And our role as Esme is to pilot, innovate, fund, support all of that new work. Absolutely fascinating talking to you this morning. We'll have to leave it there. Thank you very much, Caroline Mason, CEO of the Esme Fairbairn Foundation, and Catherine Howard, CEO of Sharebank. Next, have you ever thought about the link between food and identity? Chef and writer Marie Mitchell co-founded the Island Social Club.

She wanted a place for second and third generation British people of Caribbean descent to connect with their heritage. And Marie joins me now. So Marie, tell us about the idea behind the social club hello um yes so the social club was founded by myself and Joseph Pilgrim as an opportunity for us to one I suppose is to develop our own understanding of our Caribbean culture and then to also create a space because we felt as if there weren't enough of them in which people could come from all generations

of Caribbean backgrounds, but particularly second and third generation who wouldn't have had the same exposure to some of the culture here and create a space that we're able to come together and just celebrate the beauty of British Caribbean culture and Caribbean culture wider. So how does this all help you connect with your, and I should say mine as well, Caribbean heritage? I think, I mean, food for me is just a massive vehicle. And there's something so beautiful about breaking bread with people that you can really find ways in which to connect.

And also just engage in discussion that's not always necessarily easy but I think because it's a commonality that we all share that we have to sustain ourselves with food that we're able to actually engage in conversations that's sometimes more challenging or to just really delve within yourself. And, you know, food is incredibly political. And what's so beautiful about what features on your plate is it's a chance to actually understand history. And obviously then with that, you're able to then also engage in your own culture as well. So it's just a really beautiful metaphor almost

of what's gone on before. Yeah. It's an inclusive club though, isn't it? You know, you don't have to be of Caribbean descent to rock up, though, do you? Oh, no, no, no, not at all. That's the most beautiful thing. It's a space that's dedicated for Caribbean, people of Caribbean culture, but it's for anyone that wants to understand Caribbean culture with more depth. And essentially what we loved about it, it was a chance, and what we do love about it, sorry,

is it's a chance for people to come and to learn without it being kind of explicit. And I think what's really, what we found obviously growing up is we didn't, we didn't get enough about our history and our culture within the schooling system. And so this is a chance for us to kind of be able to educate without, in ways that should exist already, but then open up the floor for everyone to kind of delve deeper themselves, whether you're from a Caribbean background or not.

Now, you're a chef, but have you noticed there aren't very many cookery books written by black women? Why do you think that is? I mean, there's just there's a lack of, I think, Caribbean cookbooks in general. But I also think, yeah, we that it's partly related to the fact that people assume that there isn't a market for it when I think it's the exact opposite. I do really believe that there are some amazing people that are doing things at the moment. And I do think the time the next couple of years, we really will see a difference within that sphere, because it's important that we're able to tell our own stories, because I think plenty of people want to hear them. Why do you think, Marie, that from a place, there is a sense of belonging that you're always drawn back to. And I think food is an opportunity for you to always connect to that. are both my dad and my grandma in that they are the two people that have probably been the most influential in terms of why I love food as much as I do and through cooking particularly with my

grandma it's an opportunity for me to kind of hear the stories that I don't always I wouldn't necessarily be exposed to so I think what makes it so important is it's a chance to kind of own who you are your own identity your sense of like your rootedness I think that's it's a really good way to think about it's like it roots you back of where you've come from um and sort of you know understanding where like the evolution that's that's happened within your culture but also within yourselves and within your families, it really draws you back to that understanding. That's really interesting you say that it's your dad.

It's my dad as well, just out of interest. But yeah, you know, very interesting you say that. Now, look, we've got to get to cooking or talking about cooking this perfect roti. Tell me what it is and then go into how you briefly make it so it's an unleavened flatbread and you make it i mean i i'd always say you make it with love because it's definitely one of those things that i find i just become just mesmerized by so you it's the same sort of process you have initially with bread you need it and then resting you separate it out into balls and then you rest again and then this is my favorite part you

actually then roll it into like a circle and you essentially make these cones and it's a beautiful way in which you then get all the layers in because you let that sit for an hour you can do it overnight or freeze them and then when you roll it out you have to be quite gentle to make sure you don't lose all those layers and when you cook it it just sort of falls apart and this is the particular type of roti I'm talking about here is uh called bust up shut so it's which refers to kind of bust up shirt because when you cook it you then also have to beat it up so it looks as if it's falling apart and then you kind of lift it and you can see all this flakiness and it's just it's just absolutely delicious and a great way to mop up curries and delicious baked eggs and things like that. Absolutely lovely. So how often would you be cooking roti?

I mean, when we were open, we were actually opening up again hopefully next year um we would do like a two-day roti session every week and then when the restaurants open every single night now I'm at the moment while we're kind of at home I probably cook it every couple of weeks but I always make at least doubles and then freeze them so I kind of have roti on hand, to be honest. Right. Can you tell me why it's associated with the Caribbean particularly? It comes from the Indo-Caribbean community, which I don't think people know enough about,

who've made an amazing, beautiful contribution to Caribbean cuisine. I mean, Caribbean cuisine generally is a huge melting pot of cultures, but the indentured labourers that were brought over after the slave trade then brought, essentially it's like a paratha, and that came with them as well as other road styles cuisine. And, you know, the islands of Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago, the ones where it would have been most prevalent, but it's something that has kind of become synonymous around the Caribbean, but they're the ones that know how to make the best roti. Are there any particular islands that would claim to being, you know, the ones who make the best roti? I would probably say Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago. I mean, a very good friend of mine who is an incredibly talented chef, she is from Trinidad and her roti is just delectable.

Just everything she cooks is amazing, but her roti is amazing. And that was Marie Mitchell, chef and co-founder of the Island Social Club. And you can find the recipe for roti on the Woman's Hour website or download the Cook the Perfect podcast via BBC Sounds. Well, thanks for all your texts and emails this morning. Bridie contacted us and said, staff at my university have been asked to volunteer to administer the student tests. Given that many staff are middle-aged and older, Staff at my university have been asked to volunteer to administer the student tests. Given that many staff are middle-aged and older, why is staff safety not prioritised at the same level as student safety?

Helen contacted us and said, My daughter at Edinburgh has booked a coach to come home on the 7th. She's isolating for two weeks, bar walks and shopping with her flatmates. She asked for a test. They've run out. What should she do? She's been such a trooper in her first term. Joanna contacted us and said, could you please discuss that a test only tells a student they're negative on that day? They could be incubating the virus, especially if they've been mixing with other people in the few days before the test. It's essential that students avoid mixing before returning home. If they mix when lockdown is lifted next week, the test becomes misleading

and dangerous. Harriet contacted us and said, Larissa Kennedy made good points. However, my view of the student experience is different. We've been told almost daily about procedures and of sites where the latest information is available. Regarding teaching, we've had so much extra support online, it's actually been better than my normal teaching. This isn't a case of being lied to. The information is there and the teaching is being delivered as best as it can, given the circumstances.

This is a case of students needing to take responsibility for themselves and behave like citizens in this crisis rather than demanding everything to be normal for them. And I'm fed up of staff having to break up big groups of parties. Students need to grow up. On the topic of powerless green money, GreyEld43 tweeted, very powerful interview that demonstrated that we as consumers through the purchasing choices we make play a vital role in persuading companies to take the climate emergency seriously. We spoke to the chef Marie Mitchell and Nicola tweeted saying I was 19 on a course in Huddersfield we got four

pound lunch money. Shirley was the cook in a local Caribbean cafe. Every morning I'd pop in and ask him if he would make me a four pound lunch. 30 years later when I think of that amazing food my mouth still starts watering. Join Jane tomorrow when she'll be talking to Jessica Rinn about her debut novel The Extraordinary Hope of Dawn Brightside. Jessica's only just finished her MA in creative writing and she'll be talking about the inspiration for her homeless central character who's been running away from her past for 22 years and two months to be precise. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like

warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.