Woman's Hour - Chemical Control, Nadia Conners, Kirsty Wark

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

Kate, not her real name, has spoken to BBC Radio 4's File on Four Investigates and has revealed that her husband was secretly drugging and raping her for years - in a story that has echoes of the Gisele Pelicot case which rocked France, and the world, at the end of last year. Nuala McGovern speaks to BBC reporter Jane Deith who explains that Kate had to fight for justice and also to Dr Amy Burrell, a research fellow at the University of Birmingham.Imagine you’re preparing to host a party at your house when a lost elderly woman shows up at your door. What would you do? This actually happened to writer and director Nadia Conners. Nadia explains to Nuala why the interaction stuck with her for years and has now inspired her debut feature film, The Uninvited.Kirsty Wark, a familiar face on our screens thanks to her long-standing and impressive journalism career, has just been awarded the BAFTA Fellowship - the Academy's highest honour. She joins Nuala McGovern to talk about what it means to have been given this recognition after nearly 50 years as a journalist and broadcaster.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dear Daughter podcast received some fantastic letters from our listeners recently. I just had a lot of emotion and I had to put it somewhere. Together, we're creating a handbook to life for our children. Feelings that you don't know how to express verbally, write it down. Enjoy the life you have. No one can tell you what tomorrow will bring. Dear daughter from the BBC World Service, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast.

Hello and welcome. The Grand National winner, Rachel Blackmore, hangs up her jockey boots, boots even, maybe her books as well. More on her surprise retirement in just a moment. We'll talk about all that she has achieved. Also today, we are all familiar now with the story of Gisele Pellico, the survivor of drugging and mass rape in France. But today we're going to hear the story of Kate, it's not a real name, who was also

drugged and raped by her husband in the UK and talk about what other cases there may also be. We have the film director Nadia Connors on her first feature. It's The Uninvited. She made this film at 55 and it's based in part on her experience of an elderly uninvited guest turning up at her door as she was getting ready to throw a big party. And it goes into the confusion and conflicting emotions that that threw up culminating in this very funny, at times sad, charming film. And we'll hear all about it. But I wondered if you have a story to share about an uninvited guest.

What happened? One story from the Woman's Hour office this morning was about a neighbor who turned up uninvited on Christmas Day, stayed for dinner and then even stayed the night, although nobody really knew him or why he was there. So if you have something you'd like to share, you can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 03700 100 444. Also looking forward to speaking to presenter, journalist and my colleague Kirsty Wark on

receiving the BAFTA Fellowship, the British Academy's highest honour. But let me begin with Rachel Blackmore, the Grand National winning jockey as she is retiring from horse racing with immediate effect. Now, you'll probably remember she was the first woman to win the Grand National, that's in its 182 year history and the first woman to be the leading jockey at the Cheltenham Festival. In a post on X Rachel had this to say, she said, I feel the time is right. I'm sad but I'm also incredibly grateful for what my life has been for the past 16 years. It's daunting not being able to say I'm a jockey anymore.

Who even am I now? But I feel so incredibly lucky to have had the career I have had. I'm joined now by the former jockey and racing broadcaster, Jane Mangan. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Jane. Thank you for having me, to, I suppose, pay tribute

to one of racing's greatest stories. I mean, were you expecting this? Honestly, no, like anybody can try and preempt when somebody's going to retire. But she did it in typical Rachel Blackmore fashion when she wasn't at the races, when she wasn't, I suppose, when people might be predicting that she might hang up her boots on the back of a winner. No, she caught us all by surprise. And that is kind of testament to what she has been her entire career.

She was riding last week or the week before at last at Punchestown, no, but didn't have a winner, is that right? Yeah, and a lot of people retire at Punchestown. Ruby Walsh retired at Punchestown, Nina Carberry. Well, you know, I don't think that was ever on the cards for her because she's not predictable and she would have seen that as we would have been ready for that. And Punches Town, one of the racing meets in Ireland, she is Irish of course, she's from Tipperary. Shall we go through a little of her career greats? Absolutely, take it away.

Well I'm going to lean on you a little bit for this, but the Grand National. I mean, when that happened, I think that flipped the script. Yeah, that was remarkable. 182 years and I thought I'd never see the day. It was the behind closed doors COVID Grand National. So we were all at home watching it in awe. And at that stage, she'd been leading Jockey at the Shetland Festival that year in 2021. She'd won the champion hurdle on honeysuckle and it was an amazing year but I suppose had I told you in 2018

that a woman would write 18 winners, 18 winners of the Shetland Festival that would include a gold cup, the champion chase, the stairs heard and a pair of champion hurdles for the four championship races. And then you throw in a Grand National. I don't think anybody if that was the script for a film, you'd say, come on, more realistic. Nobody's going to believe that. I can't wait for the film now that I'm thinking about it because it is the stuff of dreams. I remember after it she said, because everyone's like the first woman, she's like I don't feel male or female right now.

I don't even feel human when she had that win. But she also talked about feeling angry that she was the first woman to do it. Tell me a little bit, particularly as a former jockey, what do you think was standing in the way? as a former jockey, what do you think was standing in the way? I could say opportunity, but there's a combination of factors that made Rachel Blackmore the greatest female jockey we've ever seen. There have been probably more naturally talented. There have been people who've been given opportunity, but she has had the combination of ability, intelligence in the saddle, operating under pressure very well, and crucially for a jump jockey, the ability to bounce. And when I say the ability to bounce, I mean the ability to bounce

off the ground. You will break bones, you have to accept that that is a part in nature of your job and she has done that and she has come back hungrier than ever. That is rare. And because she only, let me see, she had a neck injury and was it December around that time that then she came back, she's only back a couple of months. Yeah, she never spoke about her injuries very much and she's had a number of them down through the years, but she never had that attitude where she wanted to show weakness. She never wanted to say, poor me, look at me. I think she always just wanted to be, I am an athlete and I want to get back doing my job as soon as I can. So she never dwelt on the injuries that she had.

And like, I really genuinely believe it when I say, some, most people play the game. Rachel Blackmore has changed the game. You and I can sit here and talk about the number of winners she wrote, the races she won, the records she broke. But what we can't really quantify in words is the mindsets

that she has shifted. The old, I'll call it the old man belief system that she has reshaped because she has made it normal for a woman to win a championship race at Cheltenham and she has made it regular for a woman to be given the opportunity on a top horse in the top race on the biggest day. And that wasn't normal. And to be the favourite of punters as well when it comes to laying down the bets, when it comes to racing as well.

I want to go back to another phrase that you use there, Jane, to explain it for us. She had intelligence in the saddle. Yeah. So you can be good, like any soccer player can kick a ball, but very few can see three moves ahead. It's like the chess player who's playing one on one. The really good chess players can see three or four steps ahead. She could do that. When she won the Grand National, there was a maneuver in that race that most people would have seen, never seen, they wouldn't have noticed it.

There was a horse fell in front of her and two or three strides before that happened, she moved to her right. And that's the difference between winning the Grand National and falling. And I'm not saying that that was luck or I'm not saying that she saw that, but the good people, the Ruby Walshes, the Sir Anthony McCoys, they made mistakes less than others. That's the easiest way I can put it. I'm not saying that they did the right thing all of the time, but they made less mistakes than everybody else.

Just fascinating, even in the concept of an athlete. We talk about her being, you know, this amazing female jockey, but where do you put her in the pantheon of jockeys, all jockeys, regardless of gender, be it Irish or international? Yeah, I'm young enough, I'm in my 30s, so I'm not going to say that she's better than Sir Gordon Richards and some great names of the past. I do know she's written more Shetland Festival winners than Richard Dunwoody. I think she's right up there with the very best we've seen. And I think the biggest part of her career that I am in awe of is because for the first six or seven years of her career, she suffered nothing but rejection and disappointment. And she

wasn't very good. And she overcame that. Some people take rejection and disappointment and she wasn't very good and she overcame that. Some people take rejection and disappointment and they curl up and they become a librarian. You know, she took that disappointment and it actually drove her determination and hunger even more and just sheer grit and determination that she got to where she wanted to go. She knew what it took to get there but also at that stage of her career, because she had been doing it for six or seven years, she had the experience, the maturity and the acumen combined to take the opportunity when they came their way. Mm-hmm. And on she went. Yet again, surprising however with this retirement. She's changed things

for young jockeys coming up, girls, women, definitely as we've talked about. What do you think she might do next? I have no idea and I don't know if she does either. I think she's genuinely sad to make this decision. I think she has it all done. She's won all the majors. And I will say one thing for her career. It's unusual for us to discuss somebody's career in retrospect right now, knowing that we've actually appreciated it in real time.

Because when she won her first Shelf and Festival race, when she won the entry grand national, when she won the Gold Cup, we all knew that that was unprecedented. It had never happened before. And in that moment, we were witnessing history. So we can take comfort in knowing that we're not just sitting here now looking back at a catalogue of CDs. We're actually appreciating what we've known all along to be out of this world.

Jane Mangan, former jockey and racing broadcaster, thank you so much for sharing some of your thoughts and memories of Rachel Blackmore who has decided to retire from horse racing with immediate effect. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now I want to turn and let you know that we're going to a very disturbing story and this is about a woman who has chosen to tell what has happened to her for the first time. Kate, not a real name, has spoken to BBC Radio 4's File on Four Investigates and has revealed that her husband was secretly drugging and raping her for years. This is a story that has echoes of the Giselle Pellico case which rocked France and also the world that was at the end of last year.

Kate has detailed how she discovered this was happening to her and also how she fought to bring her abuser to justice. I'm joined now by File on Four reporter Jane Deeth. Good to have you with us Jane. Good morning. Tell me a little bit about Kate. Sure. I've met her a few times now and she's a very thoughtful, intelligent, confident woman,

a busy mum. She met her then husband when she was not quite 18 in a seaside town. He was 10 years older. He was well known in the town, he had lots of friends, he was a businessman. She describes him as being initially very attentive. They got married, they had children quite quickly, but behind closed doors he was a different man to the man that everyone else saw. He would be abusive, he would be aggressive and violent, but he always said he had mental health problems and said he wasn't in control when he would hurt her. He started abusing prescription painkillers for what he described as his, quote, washing machine head.

And things got more and more extreme. Kate told me that once she woke up unable to breathe, he had put a pillow over her face in bed and then he would break down and say I don't know what I was doing I think I'm ill and she told me it all became about trying to help him and so she just adjusted somehow to what he was doing to her. Several years into their marriage she would wake up in the night to find him raping her. Terrified, she would run from the bedroom, collapse sobbing, but still he would be the one who said, I can't believe I'm doing this.

He convinced her, in fact, that he was doing it in his sleep. He said he had sexsomnia, which is a rare sleep disorder where someone engages in sexual activity while they're asleep and usually has no memory of doing it. So, full of remorse, he would say, I don't want to be like this, there's something wrong with me. So together, they even went to the doctor about what they thought was his sleep problem.

And although we've changed her name here, this is Kate's real voice. He sat there in front of the doctor saying, I'm having sex with my wife while she's asleep. And so the doctor said, I can just suggest that you go to bed wearing a belt. Go to bed wearing a pair of trousers. What does that mean?

That doesn't say, stop, go and get yourself to a place of safety. That's not telling you to bring the police. It's just telling him that it's important enough for him to go to bed wearing a pair of trousers. That doesn't tell me that I'm raped. So her ex-husband is trying to convince her that this wasn't rape, that he had been asleep and that he didn't know what he was doing? Yes, I think the best way to describe it is that he groomed Kate and friends that they confided in, and even medical professionals into thinking that he had some kind of medical issue.

And because people like the GP didn't raise the alarm, they didn't say, Kate, go and ring the police, get out of that house. She, of course, didn't recognize the danger she was in. It was all about him needing help. Kate describes it as being scared of him, but also scared for him. Then one day after they'd been to church, he said he wants to talk that evening.

So when the children are in bed, they sit down on the sofa to have a chat. And she could never have prepared for what he said next. I remember I got myself a drink, sat down and he initiated a conversation and he just sort of put his hand on my leg and he said, I just want to let you know that I had an affair with your friend and I had been raping you, I've been sedating you and I've been taking photographs of you for years. He had been using our son's medication to use our son's medication to crush in my last cup of tea at night time to sedate me. That is so difficult to hear, Kate Kate tell that part of her story. Did she

ever suspect anything Jane? No, I mean that's the automatic question you would ask isn't it and he confessed that this had been going on for more than six years and she said no she never suspected. She was genuinely an exhausted person. She had young children, some of whom didn't sleep well. She wasn't sleeping well. She was always tired, as you would be. So when she woke up feeling groggy, she thought, well, I'm tired. I've had a rough night's sleep. Of course, it never went through her mind. I'm tired because my husband might be drugging me. And similarly, no one queried why he was ordering extra prescriptions of his son's sleeping medication, no one queried why she was

going backwards and forwards to the doctor with what she thought were urine infections. I think what's really frightening and sobering about Kate's story is that if her husband hadn't admitted to drugging and raping her she might never have known. He said if she went to the police his life would be over. So she didn't because this was the father of her children and she just could not accept that the man that she'd shared her hopes, her dreams, her marriage, her body with, could want to hurt her so badly. So she basically tried to block it all out. She couldn't admit it to herself,

let alone report him to the police. She said she just wanted him to love her. However, it took a toll on her. She became very ill. She lost a lot of weight. She started having panic attacks. A year on from his confession, she eventually told her sister,

and her family took matters into their own hands and contacted police. Everything in my past that I thought I knew had changed, everything in my future was going to be different and I just couldn't process it. And my whole life had blown up. It's like standing on a landmine and I was stood on that landmine. I don't just mean that I had been raped, I still find that very hard to acknowledge. But the person that I had protected and loved and cared for didn't have those same goals and interests towards me. But then there was a grief and not just for me, there was a grief, and not just for me,

there was a grief for the children. Their dad would never be who he ever was before, to them now. So what happened next? Her ex-husband was arrested, denies everything. Four days later, Kate contacts the police and she's really distressed. She says she doesn't want to press charges, because she just can't deal with the weight of it all. But six months go by, they're living apart and I think

the space gives Kate the chance to slowly start to see her now ex-husband for what he really is and that their whole past was a lie and she decides to go back to the police. They do press charges, they start collecting evidence and they come across notes from a session her ex-husband had with a private psychiatrist in which he admitted drugging and raping her. So all of that evidence is sent to the Crown Prosecution Service, but initially they decide not to prosecute. They say there should be no further action, but remember they're saying that this is partly because Kate didn't see herself as a victim.

But remember, that's before she'd come to see her husband for what he really was. She challenges the CPS decision and six months later, they come back and say, our original decision was flawed and we are going to charge your ex-husband. Some five years after his confession to Kate, he goes on trial. He pleads not guilty to charges of rape, sexual assault by penetration and administering a substance with

intent, that's the drugging. But a unanimous jury convicts him of the charges and he's now serving 11 years in prison. The Crown Prosecution Service has apologised to Kate for the distress it caused her. It says it is committed to getting justice in cases like this and gets most charging decisions right first time, but obviously not in this case. I think what's also telling is that not only did Kate have to fight to get justice, she had to take on the CPS, but even after a jury found her ex-husband guilty, she still has to fight to be believed by some

because some people still choose to blame her. People weren't coming around going, oh my God, I can't believe this has happened to you. They were caring for him. I was being shouted at in a supermarket for being such a terrible woman, for almost making this up. The shame almost was mine to carry. I knew it wasn't, but that's what it felt like. I want other people to understand that abuse happens a lot more quietly than you

think. Subtle and silent abuse are just as dangerous. I'm still learning properly what happened to me and how that's affected me. And it is always in the back of my mind that maybe one day it's going to hit me. And will I be all right with that? Her testimony is quite something, Jane. Why were people blaming her? Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I mean, remember her ex-husband's trial

was two years before the Giselle Pellico trial. So it was much more unknown that this could even happen then. But also bear in mind that several medical professionals knew what her husband was doing and didn't call it out as rape, didn't say you're in danger. So you can see that sort of the ordinary person on the street that maybe knew this man,

respected him, liked him, just couldn't conceive of him committing such crime. I remember at the Gisele Pelico trial it was said that no one spotted the signs of what Dominique Pelico was doing to his wife because you can't imagine the unimaginable and I think that was at play here. One woman, Kate said, you know, shouted at her in a supermarket and said, you know, why are you making this up? You must really hate him. So I think society in a way struggles to accept that this is a crime that is not vanishingly rare. Thank you for that, Jane. You're staying with us.

I do want to let our listeners know if you've been a victim of sexual abuse or violence. There are details of help and support at BBC.co.uk forward slash action line. I do want to bring in Dr. Amy Burrell, who's a research fellow at the University of Birmingham, who's been working on crime and policing for over 20 years and is currently focusing on spiking. Good to have you with us, Amy. I mean, what happened to Kate is horrifying. We talk about how rare it is or how common. Is it possible to even have an idea? Yeah, good morning. It's really, really challenging to try and understand how prevalent this is.

Spiking in and of itself is difficult to measure and then you're looking at it in a domestic space and domestic abuse is also difficult to measure. So you kind of have a hidden crime within a hidden crime in this instance, which makes it very difficult for us to understand how common it might be happening. Because as we hear from Kate, and Jane was outlining this as well, that we look at Kate, we know about Giselle Pellicoe, we realise Giselle's, for example, was not an isolated case. But it's difficult to know if there's anything that women should be aware of, unless it was kind of by chance, for example, with Giselle Pellicoe, that her husband was drugging and raping her was uncovered.

And with this case, it was down to Kate's husband telling her. Yes, I think this is what's so worrying about this is that the victims themselves may not be aware that this is happening. And I think what's really concerning for me about this case is that there were professionals who were aware of the behavior and had an opportunity to intervene and that didn't happen and that compounds the issue and you know for Kate's experience it's horrifying that she's not only had to experience this abuse at the hands of somebody that she trusted but that she's not only had to experience this abuse at the hands of somebody that she trusted, but that she's then had to fight so hard to be listened to, to be believed and to get justice.

But do you think things are changing if in fact there are cases, whether it's this one or that of Giselle Pellicoe in the headlines? I think Giselle Pellicoe has done something quite incredible. She talked about her abuse from the perspective of the perpetrators are at shame. I haven't done anything wrong. She was very vocal about shifting that narrative to perpetrators. She took the very brave decision to say, I want those videotapes showed in court because it demonstrates what happened to me.

And I think she started an international conversation about this and about where blame lies actually. And you talk about it being within that context of domestic abuse as well. But go ahead. Sorry, yes absolutely. I think what concerns me is that we know from research with domestic abuse offenders is that they are, you know, they engage in coercive behaviour and drugging somebody as a way of exerting your power over somebody and what I'm concerned about is that these offenders will use this mechanism to facilitate the other offences they want to commit and then gaslight their loved one, you know, their partner and say,

oh you know, you're imagining things, it's all in your head or they'll do what Kate's ex-husband has done and shift the blame and say it's not their fault, they can't help themselves. Because with that, I mean, is there any telltale sign or something that women should be aware of within a scenario like that? I think it's very hard to tell. You know, the impact of drugs can be quite varied depending on what's being used. But I think that if people realise that sometimes people say they feel like they know something was wrong and they can't quite put their finger on it and I think trying to talk to somebody or gain support talk to a you know charitable organisation, women's services, your healthcare professional to see if you can try and understand what's happening

to you if there's something that doesn't feel right it's trying to pinpoint what that is. I mean there is another concern that people have raised which is very disturbing to even raise but a worry that cases being publicized like this could lead to copycat scenarios. I can understand people worry about you know making perpetrators aware of methods by which they can commit offensesences, but the reality is that this is happening already and we know that victims aren't always aware that this is happening to them and we need to raise awareness of this. My other concern is that sometimes people might be drugging

someone else for what they think is not a predatory or sinister reason, but they create a vulnerability when they do that which exposes somebody else to potentially be assaulted. So we just need to have a much broader conversation about spiking and what that means. Yeah, expand on that. What do you mean by that? So in terms of the research on motivation for spiking, there is some evidence that some perpetrators are doing it for a laugh, they're doing it because they want to liven up a party or to get some people drunk, make them look a bit silly.

And that, you know, so from a motivation point of view, you kind of have this on a spectrum where at one end, people think that they're doing something amusing and on the other end, people are behaving in a really predatory manner. What I'm worried about is the people who think they're doing it for a laugh are creating a vulnerability

and they're putting their friends at risk or their people at risk by spiking their drinks or spiking their food or cigarettes or whatever and that creates an opportunity for somebody predatory to come along and target them. So spiking in food or drink you've come across has been seen by some as entertainment? Yes, there's very little research on this at the moment but the research that we have so far does indicate that for some people they're doing it because they think it's funny. And I don't know how do you intercept that? Well this is what I think the education piece for this is absolutely massive. I think people don't necessarily think through

the implications of their actions and we need people to think about how harmful what they're doing is. Even as far as, you know, if you put something on someone's drink they could be allergic for example, if you're using a medication or alcohol even. So it's about alerting people about how harmful this is and how dangerous it is. And so there's a massive piece of work to be done all the way through from across the, from the education piece all the way through to enforcement and everything at the predatory end. Dr. Amy Burrell, a research fellow

at the University of Birmingham. Thanks very much for speaking to us. I wanna go back to Jane for a moment. What has the government said? Well, you might remember that last year, Keir Starmer had quite a lot to say about spiking. He pledged to tackle it in the context of his mission to halve violence against women and girls within a decade.

In the new crime and policing bill, the government is creating a new offense of administering a harmful substance, including by spiking, carrying a maximum sentence of 10 years. Spiking is already a crime, but the government hopes that having a new named offence will make the law easier to understand and hopefully encourage more victims to come forward. But what I find really interesting is that the government publicity material, if you like, about this new spiking offence talks about the threat in bars and at music festivals you know from strangers putting something in your drink but says nothing at all about the

danger of being spiked by your partner in your own home and domestic abuse organizations organizations like Refuge say we really must start also talking about so-called domestic spiking if we're going to protect victims. So we have to suspend disbelief. Jane Deeth, thank you very much. I do want to repeat if you've been a victim of sexual abuse or violence details of help and support are available at the BBC's Action Line and you can hear Jane's full program Chemical Control, Drugged and Rape by my husband. It's on file on Four Investigates and that'll be tonight at 8 p.m. Thanks very much, Jane.

The Dear Daughter podcast received some fantastic letters from our listeners recently. I just had a lot of emotion and I had to put it somewhere. Together, we're creating a handbook to life for our children. Feelings that you don't know how to express verbally, write it down. Enjoy the life you have. No one can tell you what tomorrow will bring. Dear daughter from the BBC World Service, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Lots of you getting in touch about uninvited guests. I'll talk about it in a moment. Here's Julie.

Julia, excuse me. Years ago, a friend invited me to her mum's birthday party in a village hall that was a buffet, music and dancing. I danced several times with the man who flirted outrageously. Afterwards, I asked him who he was and it turned out that nobody knew him. Oh, she went and she asked everybody at the party. Nobody knew him. They all thought he was somebody else's friend, but he was just a gatecrusher who had wandered in and was never seen again and was an outrageous flirt apparently. 84844

if you'd like to get in touch. Now, the reason I'm talking about that is because there's a scene in a film that I was watching. You're preparing to host a big party and then this lost elderly woman shows up at your door. What would you do? It did happen to my next guest. She is the writer and director Nadia Connors. The interaction stuck with Nadia for years and it inspired her debut feature film, The Uninvited, which is in cinemas now. It's got some serious star powers. You've got Walton Goggins playing Sammy.

Yes, we all know him from White Lotus of late, of course. He also happens to be Nadia's husband in real life. Pedro Pascal is there, Rufus Sewell as well. But although there's all the big male stars, it is a very female focused film, one that celebrates the complexities and struggles of being a middle aged woman and a mother, and it takes a swipe at Hollywood's double standards in beauty and age. Nadia has got up very early in New York to join us. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for having me.

Let's hear about your story. It's very exciting to have you. So the film is not autobiographical, but as I just mentioned briefly there, an old lady did turn up at your door. Tell me about that encounter and how it stayed with you and inspired this film. I mean, it's a really it's it is a tricky question, the autobiographical elements. You know, I suppose that there's a few things that break that fourth wall for people.

A, that the person who plays the husband in the movie is my husband. And, you know, we did live in Hollywood. We don't anymore. And primarily, you know, we were throwing a party one night when our son was very young and I was busy trying to get him down to sleep right before the party started. And an old woman showed up at our house believing that she had returned home. And I mean, that was sort of the extent of the the real-life experience

I saw someone in the driveway and I ran down and there was a distressed elderly woman and She's trying to get into the garage with her clicker and you know, I explained just as the woman doesn't movie This is not your house anyhow, I you know, I really was so obviously instantly taken by her predicament but Couldn't find anyone you know couldn't find her phone couldn't find anyone that knew her and so ultimately had to call the police who came and They took her back to the assisted living home where she had come from and the police were wonderful It wasn't you know, you know, a horribly bleak situation

or anything like that. But she did right before she left, she grabbed my hand and said, thank you for being so lovely. And then off they went and I returned to the house. And when I got back to our house, I realized the party had started and had been going on for quite some time and no one had really recognized the fact that I had been gone and down in

the street. And it struck me on so many levels because people were so used to me being gone because I had a little guy anytime we had people around for drinks or whatever, like I often disappeared and put him to bed and never came back. You know, I have I have been to so many of those parties where the woman in the couple I'm visiting goes up to put the kid or the kids down and I never see her again. And it always makes me so sad. But but how how observant of you to then put that on film and congratulations on doing it. I believe you're in your mid 50s.

You set out to do this about 30 years ago, but now it is done, which is fantastic. I want to play a little clip. I suppose we should say it's a Hollywood home. There are these big male stars, as we talked about, but we also have the film centering around Rose, who's a former actress. We have the elderly woman who is Helen played by the amazing Lois Smith. And also we have a younger woman who's Delia, a young star that Eve did, Menace. We have them at these different stages of their life.

And I want to play a little clip. This is where Rose has been expounding, so middle aged, on the difficulty of motherhood to the shocked young actress, Delia. I thought you liked being a mother. No, no, I do not. It's lonely. And no one tells you that no matter how much help you seek from experts, there's no way to fix that loneliness because the person you miss is yourself. And the older you are when you have your first child,

the bigger the gap between who you were and who you've become, it's so big in fact it will swallow you whole one afternoon when you're innocently trying to baby proof the electrical outlets. That line stayed with me. The older you are when you have the child, like the harder it is to accept that gaping change or what valley we want to call between the before and after of being a mother, tell me a little bit more about the thinking. Well, you know, I had my son at 40, you know,

and so, and I felt, you know, in many ways, you know, I am born in 1969, gen X, you know, product of the messaging of like, wait to have your child, have your career first because you can't have your career and have a child And so I really you know Was as dutiful to that as anything As women are in the past to other messages, you know I sort of didn't question those messages and I think that was the reason why I was so shocked when I was 40

messages and I think that was the reason why I was so shocked when I was 40 that first of all becoming a mother was it was amazing but it also like filled with that grief and filled with you know what if you want to call it postpartum or just you know becoming a new person which is you know very just you know it was an unexpected aspect for me was the level of grief that I had. And so in searching for answers around that, I realized, you know, I think that the, for me, the later you are when you have your child, the more of this kind of like adulthood you have,

it is, it puts this, you know, what felt to me like I had developed this whole life as opposed to like having a child very quickly and then not having developed that whole life. But you know, it's really a hard thing to talk about because there is so much love and gratitude that I have for having my child, but I do think that it's important

to have these conversations. And in the film, you know, in that moment when she finally does say that, you know, I don't want to say what happens immediately after that. But I wrote that scene and what follows because of even the the feeling that I have right now on your show that I can't actually let myself talk about this. Well, this is the reason I asked you, Nadia, because I was thinking when I heard Rose, that is played marvelously by Elizabeth Rieser, I don't like being a mother.

And I was like, huh, quite a brave thing that you don't hear said in society that often. No. And, you know, we played the film at a festival near where we live in New York. It was at the Woodstock Film Festival. But we had a wonderful tour. It started at South by Southwest and it went through a number of different festivals. But my son came to that one and he's now, you know, 14. And it was really wild having him in the audience, like watching Rose, you know, and he was there through the Q&A's and we had such an incredible conversation afterwards. You know, can I ask

what was what was said? Well, the thing is, is that he, you know, he knows that I have been there, you know, and it really has been quite a surprise for him that I almost had this entire internal world. I had been a writer for so long before he was born. I had been trying to be a director for many years and that's another conversation. But tick now. Wait, sorry? I says tick that now, you've done that. Yes, I have my friends. Yes, but I mean, you know, all of this is to say that the conversation that I had with him was not that different than the conversation that I've had with other mothers,

or you know, it's just this like uncomfortable truth. And he is so loving and so supportive and was very excited for me that I finally got to do this in part of also making the film was that I had to leave home, you know, and I had to be away from him because you it's you know we were shooting in Los Angeles and I live in New York and and you know if it's 14 hour days, you know, and you're not going to see your children whether they're in the same city or not. And that was the other reason that I had

postponed directing. I was attached to direct a movie when I was pregnant. And after I had my son, I came in and said to my agent, I can't do this. And he said to me, why don't you just get a nanny? And I said, you know, first of all, he was a 30 year old guy, you know? And, you know, I started to cry in the office because it's not, first of all, it's very expensive to get a nanny full time like that, you know? And then second, I did want to be his mother. I wanted to be there, you know and then second I did want to be his mother I wanted to be there you

know and it was such a conflicted moment for me and ultimately that they dropped me that agents yeah pretty quickly right after that I don't think that would happen again today I do think progress has been made I mean that was you know 14 years ago now. But it really was very, very hard to become a director as a woman before I became a mother and then after it was, you know, uniquely difficult. I think those stories that you tell, Nadia, I can totally, they come alive on screen, that conflict, that back and forth, And also being surrounded by some very strong male characters.

I mentioned you, Rufus, Sewell, the director, Walter Walton, your husband Goggins playing Sammy, the on the edge, perhaps husband trying to save his career, Pedro Pascal. He's the dashing movie star Lucien. And I suppose we see different parts of Rose really through them as well. Actress, mother, wife. Was it difficult to have those really big male stars now at this point to be the backdrop when really you're focusing on the women?

I mean, I love that you're talking about that because that is a fascinating element of this film. And what I think is so great about all of those men is that they showed up so that the women could tell the story. Because if they hadn't said yes, we wouldn't have been able to finance the movie. So it was really them saying yes, and then kind of taking a backseat within the movie. So it was really them saying yes and then kind of taking a backseat within the story and that is a super beautiful part of it but

it's also you know there were so many meta aspects of making this film and what I had originally intended as far as the story was, you know, going back to your first question about the real story and why it stayed with me and that there was this, you know, elderly woman who was lost and at that age for me, I felt like I was lost in my own way. So this sort of twinning disorientation that was going on and by bringing her into my lost in my own way. So this sort of twinning disorientation that was going on. And by bringing her into my home in my imagination and trying to find someone to come and get her was like just the primary thing going on

for the old elderly woman while creating a character like Rose, who's not me. And again, we can go back to the autobiographical element but who just wants to go to the party now the party to me is emblematic of the freedom you have in your life when you're not bound in the domestic space and so for various reasons Rose is stuck in the house. She's the one who cares about the child, the house, and now the elderly woman who's come in. So she is the caring person.

And while there's all these open doors and the party is just outside, she cannot get there. And meanwhile, these men that you bring up, Pedro, Rufus, Walton, you know, playing these characters, they're free to come and go so easily. It's almost as if the domestic space is so completely porous, it doesn't hold them at all, you know, and there are doors that just sort of like up here, like you're like, wait, how did that even a door to the outside? And,

Like you're like, wait, how did that even a door to the outside? And, and meanwhile, the women are getting more and more sucked into this energy into the living room, like sort of stuck. But on the flip side of that stuckness is actually this like deep connection between ultimately becomes the gravitational pull that sort of brings in all of these characters. It is very much set in Hollywood. I know fame is swirling around your family probably more now with the film coming out. You were at the Met Gala recently, Walter did Saturday Night Live.

And of course there's these headlines being written all the time of the fallout from White Lotus, for example, everybody kind of grabbing onto bits of gossip. But what I'm wondering with you, how do you deal with that very bright spotlight shining into your family? I mean, it's sort of like a day at a time, know because my husband has been working and I've been with him for almost 21 years and and I've seen his career you know obviously skyrocketed but he has been doing the same work for for 30 years you know so I think in many ways he is the hardest worker that I've ever known and And that has had a profound impact on me and the way that I work.

I mean, I thought I was a hard worker, but he just goes to work. And so the fact that he's more recognized now, in many ways, he always says this. It just means that he can keep working, you know, and there's a profound gratitude that he has for where he is right now because things can come and go, right? And so the core unit of our family and our to the three of us, I mean, it's a small family, but it is the three of us and our mothers, you know, my mother lives with us. So which I read, which I also thought perhaps, you know, feeds into the uninvited in some ways as well. Nadia, it's been so lovely speaking to you, writer and director Nadia Connors, her debut feature film.

Thank you so much. It's out in theaters now. Out in theaters right now. The uninvited. And I'm also taking stories of people's uninvited guests at 84844. Thanks so much, Nadia. I want to move on to my next guest, who is a very familiar one to so many of you. Her face and her voice. A BBC journalist for nearly 50 years, she's been awarded the BAFTA Fellowship, the Academy's highest honour. I think you know who I'm speaking about already. Is she best known for being the longest serving presenter on BBC Newsnight?

That role ended in 2024. But of course, she's presenting on Radio 4 for the reunion and also front row. Kirsty Wark, welcome to Woman's Hour and a huge and well-deserved congratulations on your award. I think we just have to get our audio correct. Let us do that. While they're doing that, I will read some of the messages that are coming in. I've got to disagree with grieving for my...

Oh, this is in relation to Nadia. Got to disagree with my grieving for my former life when I became a surprise geriatric mom. Had my kids by spontaneous combustion aged 41 and 43. Couldn't have been more astonished and grateful for the new life I've had the opportunity to enjoy for the last 25 years. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. We're just reconnecting with Kirsty. We'll get there in just a moment. And we do have some more comments coming in. The reason many mothers don't speak about wishing they weren't mothers is

because society is immediately on hand to tell them how lucky they are, how some women can't become mothers and they should feel blessed at all times, humbly grateful and never complain. Mothers need safe spaces to express their feelings. Here's another one going back to the uninvited, Richard. Many years ago I just started seeing a girl and we were having a bar meal together. We were talking about going home to watch the Jerry Springer opera that was due to be broadcast on television. A man came over who was incredibly familiar with us, sort of invited himself along

to the viewing. We watched the show while the man ate all of my crisps and pop and then left. Afterwards, I asked my girlfriend who he was. She said she had no idea. She thought I knew him. To this day, I asked my girlfriend who he was. She said she'd no idea. She thought I knew him. To this day, I've no idea who the strange man we accidentally invited to our home was. That is great. 84844, if you want to add.

Right, we have reconnected. Kirsty Wark, welcome to Women's Hour and a huge congratulations on your award. I am so sorry, Neela, to put the spanner in the works. Thank you very much indeed. I'm so sorry, Neela, to put the spanner in the works. Thank you very much indeed. I'm delighted to be on Women's Hour. Okay, let me read out what the BAFTA CEO, Jane Millichip, said. Kirsty's dedication is unwavering when it comes to the telling of stories that really matter.

Her legacy is unmatched in the world of news and current affairs broadcasting. Her ability to inform and engage her readers, listeners and viewers is truly inspiring and she does all of this with enormous charm and wit. We are thrilled to celebrate her continued and lasting impact on the industry and beyond. How does it feel? How did you find out? I found out by email, the most prosaic way, but it didn't make any difference on my birthday. So it was an incredible honor and having it on my birthday made it extra special, to be honest. Well, you've had this long career that I was outlining. How do you think things have changed, let's say from when you first started on radio, BBC Radio Scotland in 1976? I think things have changed massively just in terms of obviously

the technology, the way we cover stories and so forth, but actually also in terms of the women that are working alongside with me, that I'm working for. It's a completely different ecology now. And I celebrate that. Though, I mean, when I look back and I think once, when I was a producer of The World at One, the editor was the great Jenny Abramski. So I had role models and senior positions from very early on. So I was very lucky. And you have worked in television and radio, but you've also talked about the power of television in changing perceptions.

What do you mean by that? I think we have got such a great vehicle and a great responsibility. If you look at the BAFTA wars, look at the BAFTA wars the other night. Look at Chris McCausland. You know, Chris has said himself, you know, here I am, I'm a comedian for 20 years, but I win strictly, you know, because I'm blind. you know, here I am, I'm a comedian for 20 years, but I win strictly, you know, because I'm blind. But yes, it just shows, it just opens the possibility of a new understanding. You know, people just don't, I think people walk past each other on the street, sometimes they don't even

think, don't wait. And I think the same goes for the post office scandal, because people were going to post offices not realizing that the people behind the counter often were actually full of fear because they were going through total hell and if it hadn't been for Gwyneth Hughes's amazing script all the research she did on Mr. Bates versus the post office and what Breakfast Time did winning their first BAFTA bringing loads of sub postmasters and mistresses on I don't think that story would have been picked up by government, and also now, everybody's so much more aware of it, and yet people have still not been compensated.

So I'm hoping actually that was re-kicked up the agenda by BAFTA the other night when it was mentioned that isn't it extraordinary that people have not been compensated. And of course, it's too late for many people. Indeed, indeed. You know, we're talking about Rachel Blackmore at the beginning of the program and that she's hanging up her jockey boots. I was just wondering, it's a year since you finished on NewsNide. You definitely are not hanging up your broadcasting booths.

But what was it like to stop after 30 years and move to, you know, another aspect of broadcasting? Well, actually, it was just like another chapter because I was, you know, because I made the decision a year earlier and I said I would always leave at the election. So I sort of been planning for it. And actually, what happened afterwards was quite interesting for me because I had this kind of these fixed points in my week. And now I've got the fixed point of doing Front Runner Wednesday, which is fantastic, a privilege in Radio 4. But for a while I became quite chaotic

because I was so used to sort of going to news. I was thinking, oh my God, what should I be doing today? Should I be doing this, that? And I wasn't really settling to anything. So here I am a year later and I've sort of settled down. I've got a new rhythm and a new routine. But I'd just like to put it out there and correct the record. When my dear friend, Alan Cumming, said that the train waits to take me home

to London from London to Glasgow, it used to take me home. Wait, it was once in 30 years. Listen, that's wonderful. Well, I'm glad we have done the correction on air. Now, I was thinking about you before you came on and we were often wondering, you know, what's next? I was mentioning that with Rachel Blackmore. But I did read

that you at first you wanted to be an actor. And I think in another life, I would have been a casting director. I've been excellent at hiring people for various roles, I think, in my humble opinion. So my alternate professional opinion is now that you should start acting. What do you think? Well, I've done some cameos. Actually, I'm probably better known for 25 seconds in Doctor Who than I am for 30 years. I actually said the end of the world is now. I'm not sure I'd be allowed to say that now. But you know, I have loved doing cameos and I do love all that. And it's, you know, I love that world.

And I think it's just about communicating. In a way, it's all about communicating. Could we see you? I can see it. You know, you've just mentioned some of those dramas that really turned stories on their head and, you know, brought the people's attention. I can totally see you in the lead role. Well, you know, as a 70- old, well, that would be interesting.

Definitely. I think you're the woman to do it. I'm convinced I'm right on this one. Well, you know, it's been great fun because I've been in Ab Fab and Mrs. Pritchard and lots of different things as myself. But, you know, I've never ventured into that unknown. I haven't the past before I went into the BBC, but not since. I think it's time. If before you start the whole acting thing, which I know is going to happen,

what else is there anything else that you set out to do in our last minute or so? What I've set out to do is finish the third novel, which has been sitting glowering at me for the last year and I'm desperate to get it done. So that's the plan over the summer. I'm going to be doing that and I'm going to be kicking my garden into shape. Right. There are two definitely things that we'll be looking at. I'll obviously be getting my tech skills improved, considering for some reason I couldn't get on Women's Hour.

Not at all. We're so glad to have you. Just for people, young women that are set out and you're such an inspiration to so you. And just for people, young women that are set out and you're such an inspiration to so many, including myself. What would your advice be to them? My advice would be to be fearless. And also, you know, if you're pursuing a journalistic career, choose one thing that you want really to dig down into. We're honestly, Jack of all trades as journalists, but choose one thing, it could be anything. It could be, you know, the politics of Albania. It could be dinosaurs.

And it's just to give yourself something that you drill deeply into. And so you know you can bring every obscure fact out whenever you need it. But actually it's this idea that we're a bit of a flippertidge a bit. So therefore try and choose something that you absolutely it. But actually it's this idea that we're a bit of a flippertiger bit. So therefore try and choose something that you absolutely adore. BAFTA fellow, Kirsty Wark.

Thank you so much for joining us today on Women's Hour. I'll be back with you tomorrow, speaking to the bestselling author, Isabel Allende, about her new book. I do hope you'll join me right here. 10am Radio 4 for Women's Hour tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Manishka Matandodawati, the presenter of Diddy on Trial from BBC Sounds.

Sean Diddy Combs is facing a fight for his freedom as his hugely anticipated trial starts for sex trafficking, racketeering with conspiracy and transportation for prostitution. He denies all the charges. I'll be bringing you every twist and turn from the courtroom with the BBC's correspondents and our expert guests. So make sure you listen, subscribe now on BBC Sounds and turn your push notifications on so you never miss a thing.