Woman's Hour - Cherry Groce; Gender Recognition Act; Should parents be friends with their children?

Episode Date: September 29, 2020

On 28 September 1985, Lee Lawrence’s mother Cherry Groce was wrongly shot by police during a raid on her Brixton home. The bullet shattered her spine and she never walked again. Soon after it was reported – wrongly - that Cherry Groce was dead, and two days of rioting took place in Brixton. All this was witnessed by 11-year-old Lee. He became his mother’s carer. After a doctor questioned the cause of his mother’s death in 2011 Lee campaigned fiercely for an inquest, a chance to find out what really happened the day his family’s life was turned upside down. Lee joins Jane tomorrow to talk about his mother, his life as a carer, his fight to get the police to recognise their wrongdoing and his ongoing commitment to challenge racism and fight for justice.The government has announced it will not go ahead with a change to the Gender Recognition Act which would have allowed trans men and women to self identify rather than go through a medical diagnosis to change their gender. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission has said it was a ‘missed opportunity’ but women's rights groups have applauded the decision as a ‘victory for fairness and common sense’. Jane Garvey hears from two of the women who’ve been campaigning on this issue, Dr Heather Peto who is Co-Chair of Labour’s LGBT+ group and Dr Nicola Williams from the group Fair Play for Women.The 2020 Woman’s Hour Power List is looking for women who are making a significant difference to the health of our planet. But that power doesn’t have to be held on boards or by leading international organisations. Zoë Randle, the Senior Surveys Officer for Butterfly Conservation, tells Jane about the hugely important role played by hundreds of thousands of volunteers – who are turning their love of nature into hard data that directly influences conservation policy in the UK.Do you think there should be clearly defined parent/child relationship? Or maybe you think of your family as more of a team or that your child is like a friend. If you’ve been watching the new Netflix series The Duchess which features a mum’s friendship with her child, you may have been asking yourself about your own parenting style. Jane Garvey talks to Dr Holan Liang an NHS Consultant Child & adolescent Psychiatrist in London, a mother and author of the book Inside Out Parenting and Rowan Coleman who’s an author and mother to five children ranging from 19 to twins of 8.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast, Tuesday the 29th of September 2020. Good morning, welcome to the programme. My guests this morning include Lee Lawrence, who was just 11 when his mother, Cherry Gross, was shot during a police raid on his home in Brixton. How has Lee's life panned out? Well,

we'll find out this morning. He's one of our guests on the programme. He's written very movingly about his life experience in a book called The Louder I Will Sing. Also today, what do you make of it when someone tells you that their child, their son, their daughter is their best friend? Do you believe them? Is it ever a good thing to be the best friend of one of your offspring? Let us know what you think at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, or of course, you can email the programme whenever you like via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. Let's start with the Gender Recognition Act, which isn't changing. Trans men and women will not be allowed to self-identify. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission has said it was a missed opportunity.

Women's rights groups have applauded that decision as what they describe as a victory for fairness and common sense. Let's talk to two people who've been campaigning on this issue. Dr Heather Peto is co-chair of the Labour Party's LGBT plus group. Heather, good morning to you. Good morning. And Dr Nicola Williams is from the group Fair Play for Women. Good morning to you too, Nicola. Good morning. Can we just, Heather, if you don't mind, start with you. Can you just tell us a little bit about what difference it would have made to your life if the GRA had indeed changed and you were allowed to self-identify? So self-identification of the agenda is really important because not only for the individual, which allows your birth certificate, therefore your legal status, to be changed.

You can already change your passport and your driving licence, but for legal reasons, it's important to have your birth certificate changed. But the real issue behind self-identification is acceptance of transgender people. It used to be the case that you'd go around your daily life and strangers on the streets or other people in the workplace would demand that you prove to them that you are the gender that you state you are. So, you know, prove to me that you're a woman. No, I'm just trying to go around my ordinary life. So really, the Gender Recognition Act, allowing people just to self-declare their gender is all about acceptance by society. After all, you wouldn't have, you know, we'd find it strange if you said, well, you've got to prove to someone that you're lesbian, gay or bisexual.

So that's really what the Gender Recognition Act reform is all about. Right. So as it stands, you're left feeling that you're still not accepted. Yes. And I think the trouble has been over three years of this toxic discussion. But there's lots of misinformation and hate targeted towards transgender people. I think that has almost set us backwards with our rights because although nothing is changing in terms of the law, what society sees as acceptable abuse of transgender people, only a few people within society, but nevertheless, it's not challenged,

it's got a lot worse. So, I mean, we're very, very disappointed. Yeah. What we have to acknowledge, Heather, is that some of that toxicity has been directed at people campaigning for the rights of women and some of it has been deeply unpleasant. Yes. Well, I mean, and a lot of it someone else goes low, this is a Michelle Obama quote, when someone else is abusive, don't respond. Go high. Put the arguments. Take the moral high ground. And that's certainly in LGBT Labour and the Labour Party, what we've been trying to do. Unfortunately, it's not so popular, you see. So, I mean, one of the difficulties is on social media,

toxicity is more popular, a reasonable argument. And, you know, that's, you know, we're living at a time where social media does direct discussions. Yes, but you can, yeah, the problem with social media is that sometimes, and I'm including myself here, we think it's everything and we think everybody's on it and everybody cares about what's said on it. It simply isn't true, of course. Nicola, Heather is left feeling that she still isn't accepted for who she is. What do you say to her? Well, I think we need to be really clear about the terms we're using today

because the phrase self-ID is banded around quite a bit but it means different things in different contexts really so I mean trans people can already self identify as transgender that doesn't change and trans people have laws to protect them from discrimination and hate crimes and trans people in the UK have good trans rights. I'd say some of the best in the world. And so they should. You know, I'm glad that they do. But self-identity in the context of GRA reform

wasn't about giving trans people more trans rights. It was actually about giving them more sex-based rights, women's sex-based rights, because it wasn't just about the ability to self-based rights, women's sex-based rights, because it wasn't just about the ability to self-identify their gender identity, but it was about self-identifying their birth sex too. So that would have meant any trans woman, or any man for that matter, would have been able to get a new birth certificate saying that he has literally been born female and that it would have been a criminal offence for their birth sex to be removed.

And how do you believe, Nicola, that might have impacted on the lives of some women and girls? OK, well, that's because women have sex-based rights because we're female. And one of those sex-based rights is the right to have spaces just for us when we need them so that's female only male free spaces and opportunities and so there is already an existing law for women that allows all male people to be excluded based on their birth sex now that law

simply can't function if another law allows males to hide their birth sex. And so, you know, the government made a judgment that the GRA, as it stands, already strikes a fair balance. And so instead of self-ID, they will invest in trans health care. So, I mean, a few trans people with severe gender dysphoria will still be able to change their birth certificate. But it's not all trans people just on their say so because it was set too far. And I think no fair minded government could have kept on ignoring that conflict. They look to find the fairest solution, taking everyone into account. And that was the right thing to do.

That's your view. Heather, what do you say to Nicola? Well, I mean, I think this is the ridiculousness and it's misinformation about what General Recognition Act reform would actually do. There is within the Equality Act already the ability to exclude transgender people from single-sex services and occupations if it is a just and proportionate measure. And that's not changed by having a gender recognition certificate. That is completely separate. And what most organisations, and we're talking about domestic violence organisations, refugees and rape centre, crisis centres,

they are accepting of transgender people. They already have transgender people use those services. Nothing will change in terms of those particular rights that Nicola is talking about, just because we changed gender recognition after the fall. And one of the things I would say to Nicola is it's a real mistake to exclude for example transgender women from saying sex-based rights so when I was sexually

harassed at work it was very nasty harassment most women and a large number of men supported me but there was a vocal number of women and a lot of misogynist men who were against it and against me having those anti-harassment rights. And what happened is the workplace culture changed so that it was acceptable to make sexualised comments about women. So by not actually supporting transgender rights, actually women undermine other women's rights as well. So I'd say, you know, this is just misinformation and just incorrect. Misinformation, Nicola? Well, no. And resorts on paper for women are meaningless unless they can be implemented and I've explained how hiding someone's birth sex makes it impossible to implement the laws that we've got for women but

you know I just want to say look I've got enormous compassion for trans people you know but we also need to have compassion for women too you know that's what's missing in this debate I want trans people to be treated fairly and live safely but you know I want that for women too. You know, that's what's missing in this debate. I want trans people to be treated fairly and live safely, but, you know, I want that for women too, because everyone needs to be thought of in good policy making. And, you know, women still need sex-based rights. We still need male-free spaces. Nothing's changed for us.

The reasons we need them have not gone away. But what has changed is what trans groups are now demanding from us years ago trans women were just asking to be treated as if they were women you know and that was a kindness a courtesy to do that out of compassion for someone with gender dysphoria but now trans pressure groups say that's not enough we should be forced by law to say trans women are literally female, whether we believe it or not. And that's a problem for women.

Let me put that point to Heather. Heather, it does seem to many feminists and to people who support Nicola that it's always women, always women, who have to make way and make space for others. No, I don't accept that at all. What I would say is that transgender women suffer many of the sexual harassments and sexual violence that other women suffer. And so really transgender rights do not conflict with women's rights.

Transgender women are women and suffer those sexual, you know, sexual harassment and domestic violence. And that actually, forgive me, but sorry for interrupting. But that is, that is quite literally the point at which I don't think you're going to reach any sort of agreement, Nicola, because you just don't believe that, do you? Well, no, because, you know, with the greatest of respect, trans women are not women. That word woman has already been taken and it means something quite specific. Trans women are trans women. They were born male, not female.

And it's a sad truth for them, but it is a truth nonetheless. Biological sex is real and it matters to women because every single female has had her life shaped by being female, basically. Males can't be female. A penis can't be a female sex organ. It shouldn't be controversial or shameful. You feel that very passionately. But Heather equally, and I don't need to put words into her mouth, Heather is living her life and having her experience and I'm sure has been made to feel, well, you tell us, Heather, you've been made to feel vulnerable too. Oh, yes. I mean, and as I say, and I gave the example earlier, it's actually now unfortunately acceptable almost to abuse transgender women in society. I mean, you know, I've had sexual assaults happen to me and the police haven't taken them seriously and other people don't take those seriously. And the trouble is, as soon as you start to allow a group of women,

in this case transgender women, to have less rights and not to be treated with respect actually that creates a culture where that spreads to other women as well and that you know unfortunately is is going to happen in terms of this particular debate the uh if you drop gra reform based on you know ultralights campaigns or other misinformation campaigns then when you come to other equalities, other minorities and women's equalities, when the law needs to be changed or updated, you'll have those same campaigns and they'll sense that they actually can succeed with misinformation and abusive campaigns.

Thank you. That's Dr Heather Peto, co-chair of Labour's LGBTQ, sorry, LGBT plus group. Get there in the end. And Dr. Nicola Williams from the group Fair Play for Women. As ever, we welcome your thoughts on this at BBC Women's Hour is where you'll find us on Twitter. You can email the programme via the website. There's never enough time for that conversation. I absolutely understand that. We will, of course, return to it. But that was the most recent development. I suspect there'll be much more to come. Now, let's go back to the September of 1985. I suspect many of you, like me, can remember that Cherry Gross was shot by police during a raid on her house in Brixton in South London. The bullet shattered her spine and she never walked again.

It was reported later that Cherry had in fact died and riots started in Brixton. Now, her son, Lee Lawrence, is with me now and he was in the house at the time. Lee, you were just 11 and your memoir of your life is called The Louder I'll Sing and it has on the cover the sweetest photograph of you, taken, I think, around the time of your mother's death.

You'd just started at secondary school, hadn't you? That's right. I was two weeks into my secondary school experience when that happened. Would you like me to tell you a little bit more? So it was 7am, September the 28th, 1985, which is 35 years ago. Yesterday to the day, it was 35 years ago.

And I was asleep in my mum's room, together with my sister Sharon, who was 13. My dad was in the room also. And I heard a noise, which woke me up. And I was still half asleep. I saw my mum walking towards the door. Then I laid back down, reassured that mum was taking care of it. Then I heard another loud noise, a big bang this time.

I jumped up and just saw my mum lying on the floor and a man towering over her with a gun in his hand, shouting at her. At this point, I got hysterical and I started screaming and I started shouting and I heard my mum's voice in a very faint voice saying I can't breathe, I can't feel my legs and I think I'm going to die. At this point the person who was holding the gun pointed at me and said someone better shut this effing kid up. In that moment, my dad turned around and looked at me and asked me to calm down. And I saw the fear in his face.

And I realised that this was serious because my dad was in the army and he was a security guard at the time. And I thought, if my dad's scared, then this must be serious. And it was only at this point that I actually realised that this was a police officer who was holding this gun in his hand. So we got ushered out into the living room

where I was joined with the rest of my siblings. My sister Juliet, who was 21 at the time, six months pregnant. My sister Lisa, who was eight at the time. And my mum was babysitting two children who were seven and two. So the house was full of children? The house was full of children. So your life from that point on just simply unravelled, what else could it do? Tell us a bit about your mum, what was she like? Because there are some happy times that you talk about

in the book, she was a great music lover. Yes, my mum loved music, she loved dancing, she loved to socialise, she was a great music lover yes my mum loved music she loved dancing she loved to socialize she was well known in our community um she was very loving very giving um the kind of person who you know someone that fallen in hard times my mum would put them up sometimes for a week a month you know sometimes even a year some people would be staying with us um so she was really giving of herself and we didn't have much, but whatever she had, she would share. Yeah, she was a great one for music. I mean, she'd bring a record home from the market and be blasting out.

And you really speak very movingly about the impact of music on the family and your mum's love of music. It's very evocative stuff. Obviously, the family was split up when she was shot. What happened to you and what happened to the rest of your siblings? Yes, so we were split up. The three youngest went to stay with somebody who was looking after us at the time. We stayed there for almost two years. During that time, it was really difficult because my mum was in hospital

and she'd moved to Stoke Mandeville to get rehabilitated. And there was abuse at that time as well. And there's things that happened that I didn't even realise happened to my siblings until we were much older. And the man who shot your mother, Douglas Lovelock, what happened to him? So two years after my mum was shot, there was a criminal trial and he was acquitted. And I remember seeing that on TV and going up to my mum and saying, Mum, you know, how do you feel about this? Because I was really angry. And she looked at me and she said, Lee, the police are a force and we can't beat the force. Your mum was I think still in Stoke Mandeville at the time? So we she'd just come out of Stoke

Mandeville at the time we just moved to a bungalow. And you you became her carer didn't you you're still very young um what was that like because your mum you describe her as being an effervescent person somebody who is very much part of the community. She couldn't do all that anymore. I mean, it's not easy to be a carer. It's actually not easy to be cared for. I suspect particularly if you're someone like your mum. That's right.

And before that incident, I saw my mum as a lioness that was always looking after her cubs. So when that incident happened and we went to the hospital and the doctor said she would never ever walk again, I just remember making a commitment to myself saying I could no longer expect my mum to care for me and now I've got to care for her. So the roles had reversed and I would say that robbed my childhood.

It totally disrupted my schooling. What did you do about money? Well, money was really, it was really tough. And I felt, didn't feel comfortable going to my mum to ask her for money. So sometimes I'd be doing things that I shouldn't be doing. You know, one, I explained in the book that I actually stole a pair of trainers because I needed these new pair of trainers because the ones I had were, you know, the soul was coming off, basically.

Actually, you happened to... The security guard was a kind bloke, wasn't he? Yes, and he, you know, showed me some sympathy and let me go at the time. Yeah. In the end, you got compensation, we should say, but it took quite some time. I think it was eight years before you got a penny.

That's correct. It took eight years. And the compensation was that they looked at my mum's life expectancy and said she would probably live for 10 years and they quantified what it would take to care for her for that time and she lived for 26 years for 16 years um my mum basically had to rely on us financially and actually your book starts essentially at the point of her passing away um because you find something out at that point don't you that's correct so the when I went to get my mum's death certificate to start the funeral

arrangements, at that point they said to me, we can't give you the death certificate because it looks like, because of what the doctor had written in his notes, that there may be an inquest into her death. At that point I didn't even know what an inquest was. But once I started to research and find out exactly what it was I did everything that I could to make that happen. And what did the inquest finally decide about how your mother had died? That it was serious multiple failures by the Metropolitan Police at every level and that that raid on my home that day should have never have happened. Yeah, well, I think the coroner said Mrs. Gross was shot by police during a planned,

surprised, forced entry raid on her home and her subsequent death was contributed to by failures in the planning and implementation of that raid. And you got a public apology. I mean, what does that mean? Well, at the time, I always explain it as a bittersweet moment that it was an apology that we deserved to hear. But the person who most deserved to hear it was no longer here. My mum was not here. We had to accept that apology on her behalf. And we decided that the apology means nothing

if there was going to be no accountability. And that took another two years of battling with the Met before they actually accepted accountability for their actions. In total transparency, I should say that you and I talked just before the interview, and I asked you, just before the programme started, I asked you whether you'd tried to get your story published before because now seems like the right time for this memoir but I am troubled by the the idea that in fact nobody wanted to publish it a couple of years ago what

does that tell you? What it tells me is I think when I was looking at the book before that was before we came to any conclusion so it was we wasn't at the end of the story okay yeah so that I think that was one thing why it was difficult to to get a publishing deal at that particular time um it's it's funny that we had planned to bring the book out around this time anyway. And it just so happens that within this year, we've seen the likes of George Floyd happen, which makes the book more relevant than ever. But at the beginning of the year, I was quite nervous about bringing out the book because of, you know, the pandemic that we were going through. So it's sad that in 2020, we're still dealing with similar events. Well, I was going to say, your book is sadly relevant. And I wonder too, whether when you put it together,

you really began to think harder about what you'd been through, you and your family. I guess you'd just been trying to live your life as best you could. Yes. And to be honest, we followed suit in terms of how my mum dealt with it. You know, she felt like, you know, she just had to be strong. She wanted to get back to being a mother and try to be as independent as she could.

And she suppressed her feelings. And we did so too. And it was only when my mum passed in 2011 that all the emotions, the hurt, the pain, the trauma, the sense of injustice came flowing back. And I just prayed that this glimmer of hope in this inquest would be something that I could focus that energy into. And that's what I did. And you do work with the police, don't you? I know that you have sometimes, understandably, a somewhat difficult relationship with them, but you have tried to work with the Met don't you i know that um you have sometimes understandably a somewhat difficult relationship with them but you have tried to work with the met to to change things so i'd like to

rephrase and say i engage and and consult and consult um but yes i think it's very important because i want what happened to my mum to to stand for something i would like lessons to be learned. Well, I mean, have they? Well, I haven't seen it yet. And that's why I'm doing the work that I'm doing now. Because I'd like to see that. I'd like to see measurable, tangible changes. I would like to be living in a world where something like this could never happen again. And when you were a really little boy, you wanted to be in the police, didn't you?

Yes. You know, if you'd asked me at the age of 11, just before that incident happened, what do I want to be when I grow up? I would have said a police officer. I was into all the cop programs at the time. You know, chips, Starsky and Hutch, the professionals was one of my favourites. I'll give you Starsky and Hutch, but not Chips, Lee. You're on the wrong thing then. Carry on. So, yeah, and then that incident really just changed

my whole outlook on how I saw the police, you know. I saw them as the heroes before, but now I'm seeing them as the as the bad guys because my mum was innocent she did nothing wrong we was at home in the safest place we could ever be it wasn't even like wrong place at the wrong time. Lee um real um really interesting to talk to you thank you very much indeed and um I hope that people get to read this it's called The Ladder I Will Sing that's from the the Labi Sifriiffrey song, is that right? That's correct. That's correct, that song, yeah. Lee Lawrence is the name, and Cherry Gross was his mum.

And there is a statue of her now, isn't there, which will be unveiled in Windrush Square. That's correct. Yeah, okay, so she is not forgotten, not just because of the efforts of Lee, but the efforts of other people as well. Thank you very much for coming in. Thank you for having me. Now, on Thursday, of course, it is Jenny's final edition of Woman's Hour. So not to be missed. She's going to have a stellar lineup of guests just discussing how women's lives have changed,

what has changed for women over the course of her time on Woman's Hour. So don't miss that. That's Jenny's final programme on Thursday. Tomorrow, I see she's got Yotam Otelenghi on the programme. So that's another treat for her tomorrow. So she'll be looking forward to that. There'll be a bit of cooking on Woman's Hour tomorrow. Now, the 2020 power list on the programme is looking for women who are making a significant difference to the health of our planet. But that power does not have to be held on boards or by leading international organisations.

We're looking for women who are on their own personal environmental front line, putting in the hours, doing stuff almost certainly for no reward financially at all, but just because they feel so strongly about it. Zoe Randall is the Senior Surveys Officer for Butterfly Conservation. It's an important role played by hundreds of thousands of volunteers turning their love of nature into hard data. Hello, Zoe. good morning to you. Hi, good morning. So what are your volunteers up to? Where are they and how many have you got? Well, first of all, they are the bedrock of our organisation. Questaflow Conservation is the largest insect conservation charity in the UK.

We've got more than 40,000 members of which 53% are female. We've got over 120,000 supporters. And last year alone, they contributed 14 million pounds worth of volunteer effort. And in terms of time, that's 220,000 hours. And I did some maths at two o'clock this morning and worked out that that's 25 years of effort in one year in last year alone so that's absolutely incredible and what these people do is they collect data for our citizen science projects we've got eight citizen science projects these are casual recording casual recording or some more standardized monitoring which needs a greater level of engagement and time consumption but we've basically got something for everybody and all this data

that's collected it tells us where species are and how many there are so that then enables us to make decisions to target our landscape scale conservation work on the ground to make bigger, better, more joined up landscapes. And these are like the crown jewels for butterflies and moths. And they're where we build our partnership projects because we're stronger together. Right. Yes. A little bit. Forgive me, but a little bit of jargon in what you've just said. I just I just want to know. It's so important, Zoe. And I love the way you put it into quite crude financial terms as well, because I think that's important. But what does it mean and how do these volunteers actually, they're good works, how do they go on to affect policy? So, like I said, all this data is collected and we can target conservation work in landscapes which are good for butterflies and moths.

And so then they can actually, having collected the data, we've probably got, we've got another lot that check the data make sure it's all accurate and everything they're also volunteers and then we do landscape scale conservation on the ground so people go out and they can do brush cutting and they can actually do proper management brush cutting chainsawing scrub clearance all of that stuff to improve the habitats for the target butterfly and moth species that we're looking to conserve. Can I ask a dive question? Is it possible to move butterflies into an environment that they, or a landscape that they don't currently inhabit?

Well, we have done that, actually. We've just recently, as one of our big, massive partnership projects developed by Natural England and Rethink Nature as a group of seven conservation organisations. We have managed to successfully reintroduce the checkered skipper butterfly into Rockingham Forest in Northamptonshire. So this butterfly went extinct in England quite some time ago. The only known colonies were up in Scotland until this reintroduction. So yes, it is. But what you need to do is all of that reintroduction,

and we've had similar successes with the large blue butterfly as well, with the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology. But what you need, you can't just pick up butterflies and put them somewhere. What you need to do is... Well, that's what I was going to ask. How do you do it? Yeah, you do it yeah you do it you have to all the reintroduction work is based on sound scientific evidence so the species needs to have lived there at some point in the past so there's yeah so it's so it's got a history of in these particular areas or landscapes or sites so yeah you can't just pick

it up and move it because it just won't survive. You need to make sure that the conditions are exactly what the species needs. Now, we know that butterflies do need specific habitats. You've outlined that. The Prime Minister has said he's going to protect a further 400,000 hectares of land by 2030. Where might that land be where should it be well i think he's got his ideas of where they need to be um and um and also what he needs to do is there needs to be liaison between the um the statutory agency so english nature uh sorry natural england um scottish natural heritage national and the welsh one and the and the irish one. Sorry, I'm praising it to get quick. Don't worry.

So there's so much to say. And, yeah, so basically what we need is we need real strong political will and an investment. We really need to invest in our environment because ultimately we need it. It's for all of us. Every single species on the planet needs the environment and that includes us. So we really need, you know,

he needs to be really committed to this. And I know he said something the other day about a stitch in time saves nine. Well, in terms of environmental stuff, I think we're up to the nine stitches. So we really do need to crack on and do stuff now. Yeah, I think that the use of a stitch in time has to be said, as far as I understand it, completely mystified at least 60% of the British population who'd never heard it before. But anyway, it's good to bring it back, Zoe.

Right, climate change, brief question on that, if there ever could be um surely um do you have concerns about the way this summer has panned out and what has been the impact on the british butterfly population as that's what we're focusing on just for this brief chat this morning yeah well absolutely we've just um we've just released the results of the big butterfly count yesterday um the average number of butterflies per count is down to the lowest in the 11-year series of the project. Well, that's worrying, isn't it? It is worrying. And a lot of that is due to climate change. Butterfly populations do fluctuate annually and it's based on the weather. This year, we had a fabulous spring. So some species took advantage of that and had really good first broods, which then led to really good second sort of generation, second broods of species like the large white and the small white.

But because some of the single brooded species like the meadow brown, ringlet and marbled white, because they came out earlier and they only have one brood per year. By the time the big butterfly count came along they were all starting to tail off so you know the wet february the really wet february's had an impact the warm springs had an impact and overall our butterflies are declining three quarters species are are declining but it's depressing but we need people people need to feel empowered and we can make a difference and we have turned the tide on so many species we've brought back the duke of burgundy from extinction you know from from the verge of extinction the large blue's been reintroduced the checkers skip has been reintroduced and various loads and loads of species loads of really positive work that people can get

involved in and really make a change and And our volunteers have got really valuable skills which can be utilised to make a positive difference. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Zoe. That's Zoe Randall, Senior Surveys Officer for Butterfly Conservation. And I talked earlier this morning to Anna Lacey, who is our Woman's Hour colleague, the producer in charge of the Woman's Hour Palace this year. She's quite beleaguered.

She's had so many emails suggesting women for our planet, our planet, get it right, because somebody complained about that last week, Woman's Hour 2020 Power List. We are looking for those women who are doing valiant, often, of course, voluntary work in conservation, in looking after the environment, in tidying up your street, your park, your local playing field, whatever it might be, tell us about them via our website.

The PowerList reveal programme this year is on the 16th of November. Let me just read through just some of the women who've been suggested already. Eve Bell, who's founded a reusable nappy company. Rhianne Fatinican, who's founded the group Black Girls Hike to increase access to the countryside for people of colour. Faye McAnula for her work on sustainable cities. Helen Browning, the CEO of the Soil Association. A lady called Linda McCook in Northern Ireland, who runs a market garden to bring seasonal produce to her local area. That gives you an idea. They can be local, they can be national.

Whatever level these women are working at, just tell us about them, please. Anna, I think she'd like, I'm just not sure if she would like thousands more suggestions, but she'll take a few more via the Woman's Hour website. Please do get involved. Programme reveal is on November the 16th, the Women's Hour 2020 Our Planet Power List. Now, can you ever be the best friend of your child? Dr. Holand Liang is an NHS consultant, child and adolescent psychiatrist. She works in London. She's a mother and the author of the book Inside Out Parenting. Rowan Coleman is an author, has five children, ranging from 19 to twins of eight.

Rowan, good morning to you. Hello there. Tell us about your relationship with your, it is your eldest child, your daughter, isn't it? Yes, my daughter's 19. She's just gone to university. And we are very close. We are friends, I would say. We are best friends.

We're not exclusive best friends. I also have best friends of my own age and she also has best friends of her own age. But we enjoy each other's company. And I think we have a really open relationship and honest relationship because of that. And do you think it's unusual? You know, I don't actually think it is that unusual these days. Amongst my generation of of parents I certainly know plenty of women who have that kind of friendship and relationship with their daughters and their sons and when can I ask how is it forged that I think it is probably quite a particular closeness you have with your eldest child um I mean I like to think I'm equally close with all of them uh But I think with Lily, it was we, I divorced from her dad when she

was about eight years old. And I'm and she was going through a particularly difficult time. Nobody wants their parents to divorce that my parents divorced themselves. So I knew that. And I used my experience to sort of forge that closeness with her because I didn't want her to feel like she'd been pushed out that her or that she was in any way to blame um and there's no way to make divorce painless but there is a plenty of ways to make it a better experience for your children and okay that's thank you um Holan there's nothing wrong with any of that, is there? No, absolutely not. And I think the question that I have in my mind is what do people mean when they that your child is open to talking to you about

difficult things like sex relationships drugs and smoking and I think that is um wholly positive particularly um in adolescence and and adulthood I I don't think people are generally meaning that they are going clubbing together with their children and going on double dates, which I think is a little bit creepy. But but so I think, you know, it depends on what we mean, really, by my child is my best friend. And I think, you know, what Rowan describes is really wonderful. But there are a few pitfalls in parent-child friendships if things are not well balanced. So, for instance, if we're talking about younger children, you know, sort of pre-12, you can never really have a true friendship with your parent because there's an inherent power balance. Parents have a legal responsibility to ensure that their children access education and maintain their health, which obviously friendship friends don't have that responsibility.

And so, you know, there's there's there are difficulties in saying, you know, I want to be my child's best friend, if you have those responsibilities. And then also in thinking about child's mental health, you know, if it's, if it's done wrong, you know, there's a difficulty if parents are, you know, discussing in too much detail their relationship problems in terms of burdening their children with an emotional burden, which can lead to children almost becoming parentified or taking the role of perhaps an adult friend or partner where those things should more appropriately be discussed rather than with a child. And then also there's a risk of an over-involved relationship where that

relationship with a parent is so strong and so confiding that it actually prevents the child from gaining independence and having their own lives. But, you know, from what Rowan describes, that's totally not the case for her. No, no, certainly doesn't sound it. Holan, would your own parents ever describe themselves as your best friends? No. Not you either, Rowan. I don't think so. And I think they are loving and supportive, but I don't think that they would ever have been,

I would have ever considered them my best friends, but they are loving parents. I would think it's a generational thing. And, you know, I certainly aspire to have a friend, friend like relationship with my own children when they're, you know 19 20 um when they're adults yes but i do think that that parent-child relationship should evolve uh you know so that you are definitely a parent when they're in their primary years yes when they simply need a parent um thank you very much uh dr holan liang who is an NHS consultant, child and adolescent psychiatrist, Rowan Coleman, author, and being friends with your children. Here's Judith on Twitter. Women who claim that their child is their best friend make me feel uncomfortable. I'm a single mother to an only daughter. We are very close, but we are not each other's best

friend. My job is to parent, which to me means support and unconditional love. Anonymous on email, my mum said to me at 12, now we can be best friends. For me, it meant I could no longer look to her or rely on her as a parent, that she wasn't there for me as a mother. So I found it devastating. And from Jenny on email, my son and I were very close. Part of this closeness was no doubt due to the death of his father when he was just 11. As an adult, he was in contact every day and we shared a great deal of chatter, but not everything, says Jenny. He died earlier this year. I am so close to his daughter and his wife, but I do miss him unbearably. The degree of friendship we shared was enviable for sure, but I would never describe him as my best friend. He was far, far more. He was, uniquely. So I'm very, very sorry. And I hope that perhaps listening to the programme gives you some degree of comfort. I mean, I know it's stretching it a bit, but thank you for that. And I'm so sorry to hear about what happened to your son and all the very best to

your granddaughter and daughter-in-law as well. Now onto the subject of the GRA. Anonymous, I don't think this argument is being framed correctly. You cannot alter your genetic inheritance and therefore your birth certificate should not be changed, other than in some exceptional cases where an incorrect assignment to a sex have been made. It may even be dangerous to change birth certificates as your genetic inheritance will affect your health. Females and males may be more or less susceptible to certain conditions. This does not mean that anyone who wants to take on an alternative gender identity should be treated in a disadvantageous way. There is legislation which addresses this

and other forms of discrimination, although I appreciate it is not easy to enforce it. Anastasia on email, trans women are women as a biological born woman. My rights are strengthened by my trans sisters and excluding them states that my femininity is just the sum of my biological parts when it is much, much more, she says. And from Tessa, in your discussions on the GRA, the Gender Recognition Act, there was no mention of the fact that the situation in Scotland is different. The Scottish Government is still proposing change. It held a consultation on the draft Gender Recognition Reform Scotland Bill,

which closed for responses on 17 March 2020. Well, thank you for telling me about that, Tessa, and you're quite right to point out my omission. That was my fault, so I'm sorry about that. And it's certainly a subject that we will return to and we'll keep a close eye on what happens in Scotland. We do, of course, rely on you to a degree to tell us what you want us to talk about.

And you're always very welcome to email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. I just want to end with a tweet from the Honington and Sappiston WI who say, Lee Lawrence, that was such a powerful interview. You and your family have shown such honesty and courage in the face of injustice. I so hope you see lessons being learned so that nobody else has to go through this in our country. Well, so say all of us. And I was particularly moved by Lee Lawrence,

not least because his book is really an insight into a life, his life and that of his mum, Cherry Gross, and it brings his mum to life. It isn't just all about her death and what happened afterwards, but about the person she was before all this took place. So well worth a read. And the book is called, let me get this absolutely right, it's from that Labby Siffrey song, It's the Louder I Will Sing is the name of

Lee Lawrence's memoir. Jenny is here tomorrow. Two more days of Jenny Murray on Woman's Hour. Who'd have thought? Make sure you're there for both of those programmes starting on Wednesday, of course, tomorrow when she'll be talking amongst other people to Yotam Otelenghi. That's tomorrow. I think Yotam's one of her favourites. That's probably why he's booked in for tomorrow. Enjoy and thanks for listening today. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle

in. Available now.