Woman's Hour - Child criminal records, Screen time, Heart valve disease

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Following the publication of Baroness Louise Casey’s highly critical report into grooming gangs involved in the sexual exploitation of children, we look at one of her 12 recommendations in detail. The Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, has committed to reviewing the criminal convictions of victims of child sexual exploitation, quashing the criminal records of victims who were “criminalised instead of protected”. Nuala McGovern speaks to Jade, who as a teenager was charged with a grooming offence and is trying to get that conviction overturned. Nuala also hears from Paula Harriott, the CEO of the charity Unlock. Students will spend an average of 25 years on their phones over their lifetime. The average person in school, college or university spends five hours and 30 minutes a day on their mobile, according to a new study by the app, Fluid Focus. Last year Ofcom found that across all adult age groups, women are spending more time online – that's on smartphones, tablets and computers – than men - clocking up an extra 33 minutes more each day. Nuala speaks to Sunday Times journalist Charlotte Ivers about her phone use. More than half of Heart Valve Disease (HVD) cases are women, yet less than half of heart valve surgeries and procedures are on women, according to new data from the charity Heart Valve Voice. Heart valve disease is when one or more of your heart valves do not work like they should. This can affect blood flow and put extra strain on the heart. How can women’s symptoms be taken more seriously? Nuala is joined by cardiologist Dr Alison Duncan and HVD patient Jaqueline, who was initially misdiagnosed with anxiety.Three years on since the war with Russia began, more and more young women are choosing to leave the country to continue their lives in Europe, either studying or working. Young men have been banned from leaving Ukraine after they turn 18 since the war broke out and martial law was introduced, but young women are free to leave. Freelance journalist Gabriella Jozwiak has been in the city of Lviv talking to young women about their plans for the future, and joins Nuala. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. In a moment, Jade, one of the survivors of abuse by grooming gangs that were reported on by Baroness Louise Casey. We're going to hear Jade's story on why she was put on the Sex Offenders Registry and also whether there may now be momentum to quash her conviction. Also this hour,

Molly Jungfast. Molly has written a compelling raw memoir about growing up with a famous mother, one who she says was neglectful. Her mother is Erika Jung, a feminist pioneer now suffering fromful. Her mother is Erika Jong, a feminist pioneer now suffering from dementia. The book is beautifully written though devastating at times, not least when discussing what one owes a neglectful parent in old age. Plus our report out this morning has forecast that if the average young person's screen time does not change drastically they can expect to spend at least 25 years of their life on their smartphone.

It is quite the prediction and it made me think of my own screen time. How many years have I been looking at that little glowing screen? Is this something that bothers you or perhaps you've tried to break free from or cut down on how. You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03 700 100 444. Apparently women do spend 33 minutes more on their phones than men per day. Now we have Charlotte Ivers, she has five ways to get off your phone so that conversation is coming up. Also heart valve disease, why are fewer women than men getting treatment despite more

women suffering from that particular condition? Do join us for all of that. But let me begin with thinking back to last week. At this time I brought you news of the expected findings of the review by Baroness Louise Casey into the sexual exploitation of children at the hands of grooming gangs. When it was published the report made 12 recommendations all of which the government has said it will take action on. They include gathering ethnicity data of perpetrators and that there should be a full national inquiry into child sexual exploitation in England and Wales.

Well today we can look at one case in detail and one recommendation that is to review the criminal convictions of victims of child sexual exploitation and quashing Annie where victims were criminalised instead of protected. The Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, she responded to the report by saying she will change the law so that those convicted for the offence that was termed in the past child prostitution, now called child sexual exploitation, will have their convictions disregarded and their criminal records expunged. I want to speak now to Jade. Jade was groomed when she was

14 and says she was sexually abused by hundreds of men, all British Pakistani. None of them have been charged with any crimes, let alone convicted. Instead, she was criminalised and put on the Sex of Menders Register. She joins me now. Welcome Jade, we're very grateful to have you with us this morning. I know it's not easy to do. I'm wondering how you are today after this story that has dominated headlines of you and other survivors being in the news. I'm very more hopeful now. I've got more hope this time than I ever have. But with because we've been let down so many times, it's holding the faith. Like it's just, yeah. You have to have to see it to believe it. But then but that is interesting to hear the hope in your voice,

because I've seen previous interviews you've given and that wasn't there. Yeah, this time. Yeah, it looks like it's going the right way. Baroness Casey's report was absolutely amazing. So I'm, yeah, I'm hoping, but you've got to see, I've got to see change first. You know, I mentioned just briefly your case, Jade. It is almost 20 years ago when you were groomed. You were just 14 then.

Are you able to tell us a little bit about that experience? Yeah, it started when I was 14. They would just pick you up, want to drop you to school. So it's like, oh, it's like a man in a car taking you to school. It's all exciting at first. They would buy you alcohol, buy you cigarettes, take you out for food, treat you like a princess basically and when you're in care and haven't got anyone, you thrive for that attention. So yeah, that's where it started and then as I said,

the first few months it starts off all nice and then yeah, and they'd literally just awful nice and then yeah and they literally just basically abuse you and pass you along to everyone. There's been times where we got taken we got we'll get taken out and you'll be taken into the middle of nowhere don't know where you are and you have to sleep with ten people just to get home and you do it because you need to get home you're scared you don't know where you are. I've been beaten up untold times where even if I refuse to get in the car they've gotten out the car and beat me up. So then the next time they pull up you just get in the car because you don't want to get beaten up.

You're trying to survive? Yeah, literally that's all you ever do is just live off survival mode. You were so young though when you look back now Jade, you know, you're in your 30s, a 14 year old, such a kid. I know when you're 14 you think you're a big girl, you think you know everything, but now I've got a daughter as well and I've got 14 year old girls around me, they're babies and it's heartbreaking. Yeah, yeah. Now an adult looking back at my 14 year old self, I was a baby. That's very difficult. That's very, very difficult. One, I was just mentioning there that Baroness Casey, one of the recommendations was to

review the criminal convictions of victims of child exploitation and quashing any where victims were criminalised instead of protected. I mentioned that you have a criminal conviction and at that time as well there exploitation and quashing any where victims were criminalised instead of protected. I mentioned that you have a criminal conviction and at that time as well, there were no charges ever brought against the perpetrators. Can you tell us how you ended up with a criminal conviction? So it's crazy. I got put on police protection so many times for being high risk of sexual

exploitation and then the last time I got put on it 18 days later I get arrested for inciting sexual activity on a minor because me and the girl from my care home went to a house party she we both got sexually abused but she reported it I never reported it because I reported it so many times I never got believed. So I got accused of taking her to a house party when we both went to this house party and both got abused. And the perpetrators of that abuse that were around you, none of them were convicted. Me and two men got sentenced, but the other men that got arrested, they didn't. sentenced, but the other men that got arrested, they didn't. And I mean, I think that's quite stark as well, just reading into your background that you were obviously at high risk

of sexual exploitation, as was on the police records, and then you turn 16 and then you are instead convicted of inciting sexual activity of a minor. So that meant you were put on the sex offender's register for five years. What did that mean to you, to your life? It's ruined my whole life. When I was in school I was doing health and social care. I wanted to do social work, I wanted to work with kids in care. So from that day it ruined my whole life because I was never able to do that. I've had to fight social services off my case for my kids.

And I've never been able to go to school trip with my kids. It's been it's been brutal. Every day I wake up still living the trauma. It's like these people are still controlling my life. So decades later and immediately after your conviction you were sent to a detention centre, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, I got sentenced to two years, done 14 months. You would have seen the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, has said the government will take action on all the 12 recommendations and change the law so that those convicted for what was then called child prostitution offences, it's

now child sexual exploitation, that they'll have their convictions disregarded, their criminal records expunged. I don't know, when you heard that what did you think? I was over the moon. I was over the moon finally these poor girls, not just me because there's loads of us, could finally start living their life, getting their life back. You have a little one I know so perhaps a school trip could be in the offing. Yeah this is what I'm saying I could finally go on, I've still got six years of school that I can go on school trips. I can finally go and do my courses that I want to do and do the work I want to do.

I'm still young enough to go live my life. I know you want to work with vulnerable children as well. You know, we've covered this story for quite a while, Jade, with various people, including Maggie Oliver, who you'll be obviously very familiar with, and they talk about the cases that this abuse continues now. I mean, working with young girls like that, I mean, what is it you want to do? I would love to be the new Maggie Oliver, if I'm honest. Because the trauma I've been through, because I've broken,, it's ruined my life. So I now want to turn it into a positive and hopefully help all the girls out there that are going

through the same thing. It's so brave to speak up and for those who don't know Maggie Oliver, she is... I want to shout out to Maggie Oliver. Anyone that is suffering or want to speak out, please contact the Maggie Oliver Foundation. She is absolutely amazing. If it wasn't for her and her foundation, I wouldn't be where I am now. And she's an advocate for victims and survivors. And to be the next Maggie Oliver, that is, I'm sure Maggie would be delighted to hear that as well, Jade.

But people might be wondering, you have this strength of character, it comes across. How do you have that after what you've been through? It's just made me a stronger person. I don't know, as Maggie's quote, turn your pain into power. I've got kids, they're the reason I wake up every day. If it weren't for my babies, I don't know where I'd be to be honest. Also, cutting back to the Home Secretary, they asked police forces earlier this year to identify cases that had been closed with no further action. Now there's more than 800 cases that have been identified for formal review and she expects the figure to rise to over a thousand. Your thoughts on that aspect of recommendations? Back then I did want them all to get charged, I wanted them all to go

jail but now it's like why now? 16 years later they're all the evidence, I haven't got all the evidence now that I need. Joe is, I'm going to be going through all that pain in six years in court just for them to get six years. And I've been here suffering for 20. I don't call that justice. So I couldn't mentally put myself through all of that again. And the ones that I have put charges on, if they were to reopen that because of the age of the men they might not even be alive now. That just shows how long this process has been for you two decades. There was so much discussion about whether to have a

national inquiry or not which would be for England and Wales it is going to go ahead. Do you welcome that or does it make a difference to you? No because we wanted Joe like we've had we've they've had all the evidence they've had it all for years so Joe they could have done all of this ages ago and so it's all I keep saying is why now why now when you've had all the evidence you've Joe, but unless, and well because I've obviously been let down so much, unless I see the change, I could, yeah, I can't hold on to, it's the holding on to hope I'm struggling with. Like some days I'm hopeful, some days I'm not. I just, when you get let down so many times it's hard. I hope you'll come back on as we continue to cover this story, Jade.

Oh, yes. Yeah, thank you very much for speaking to us. That's the best, thank you for having me. Yeah, and thank you. We'll continue following your story, but thanks for being so frank with us about your experience and what you're feeling this morning. I do want to say to our listeners if you've been impacted by anything that you've heard there are links and support available on the BBC Action Line website. But I want to bring in Paula Harriot who's the CEO of the

charity Unlock and that is a charity that supports and advocates for people with criminal records in England and Wales to be able to move on, they say positively, in their lives. The charity would like to see the recommendation that we were discussing there of Baroness Casey broadened out to other children, not just those like Jade and those particular grooming gangs cases. Good to have you with us Paula, you've heard Jade there. Hello Jade. Hi Anne. have you with us, Paula. You've heard Jade there. Hello, Jade. And you know, her story

is very compelling and heartbreaking at times. You want to see a review of childhood criminal records across the board. Talk me through that a little bit. Well, I think Jade's spoken about the impact of a criminal record on her and how that's impacted on her life, not being able to do simple things like go on her school trip with her child and definitely impacting on her access to work. So in our work, and we have a helpline

that has around 10,000 calls every year from and one and a half million hits annually from people with criminal records and for the children in particular, children who've acquired a criminal record it really makes it difficult for them to move on even though some offenses are wiped clean after five and a half years, the reality is that for the majority of children who got a criminal record in their teens, that does show up on a criminal records check when they try to go to a further education or they try to go to university or they try to make have their very first formal job at 18, because that five and a half year period hasn't yet passed. So that will all and for some.

So if there's ever been a prison sentence like Jade where she's gone to prison, even for a couple of weeks, or a suspended sentence, or even a referral order, which is one of the most minor criminal offences that a young person can have, even a referral order that can show up on your standard and enhanced cheque for the rest of your life. an enhanced check for the rest of your life. So, and I think these really impact on children, you know, moving on, I think we have to accept that children make mistakes and we have to accept that potentially we should be compassionate about that. And in the case of Jade in particular, you know,

where we do welcome the case review recommendation for the expungement of that record. You know, she's clearly vulnerable and clearly should not have been criminalised under those circumstances. I think there are other children. Jadal also said there were other young girls in a similar situation. I think that there are lots of young people in that situation. Young children potentially have been involved in the county lines, who've been groomed to work in drugs trade. And I think that what we are asking for is maybe a broader review of young people and criminal records. So that is Jay's case in county lines. But some will talk talk about Paula, where do you draw the line, for example?

What about violent offenders? It could be murder, it could be rape. Are you talking across the board? No, I think we have to have common sense here. You know, there are some serious crimes and it's in the public interest for them to stay on the record, you know. And what are the crimes that? Murder, rape, other serious assaults. I think, you know, we have to be clear that that's acceptable to keep showing up on a person's record. I think for, you know, I'd be happy for those to be discussed as part of

a broader review. Do you see what I'm saying? But I think in general, for minor crimes, I think that those offences should be wiped out and that young people shouldn't have to declare them then when they go to further education. There might be, I understand, there might be some that people can agree are minor crimes, there are others which of course people will have different opinions on whether they're minor or major. And that's why I think it's good to have a review. Do you think, and with Baroness Casey's review so far looking into grooming gangs, do you think there is momentum for change across the board, not just in cases like Jade's?

I hope so. I hope that sadly Jade's case shows us in full view what the longshadow of a criminal record really, how it really plays out in somebody's life. She said earlier, didn't she, that she had a bit of hope that she might be able to take her daughter on a school trip. You know imagine how that feels you know as a mum who's you know just wants to move on that you can't because going on a school trip would mean that the school would want to do an enhanced DBS check and Jade's conviction would show up on that. And she is not alone. I have people who call our helpline all the time

with those similar situations. And I think that what Jade's case sadly has shown us is that it has a really deep impact and that this is potentially a moment when we, Jade's case, can catapult a larger review into the sort of more complicated situation around criminal records. Paula Harriot, CEO of the charity Unlock. Thank you very much for joining us and Jade before you as well. Thames Valley Police spokesperson has

said that they recognize the challenges victims and survivors must face in deciding to come forward and report offences committed against them. Those who choose to come forward must be met with the utmost professionalism and care. As a police force we have a much deeper understanding of child exploitation than we did 15 years ago, developed over many years through experience and partnership working. We now have more officers and detectives dedicated to investigating child abuse supported by specialist teams and close collaboration with other agencies to protect children, bring offenders to

justice and prevent further harm. To date this is in regards to Jade's case. The force has not received a complaint regarding the case. If a formal complaint is made, we will investigate it thoroughly. Also related to Jade's case, this is Adi Osebogun from Buckinghamshire's Council's Cabinet Member for Children's Services. He said the experiences shared by Jade and others serve as a powerful reminder of the importance of continually reviewing and strengthening safeguarding practices. Buckinghamshire Council remains committed to learning and ensuring that the well-being and safety of all children and young people in our community are always a top priority. And just to reiterate what the government has said, they said the Grimley scandal was one of the greatest failures in

our country's history. We've accepted every recommendation within Baroness Casey's report and will continue to make wide-ranging changes across society to protect children from sexual abuse so that the scale of exploitation is never seen again. We will work with relevant bodies across the criminal justice system to identify any cases of wrongful criminalisation of victims and finally deliver the justice they deserve. We will continue to follow it. Now students will spend an average of 25 years on their phones over their lifetime. The average person in school, college or university spends five hours and 30 minutes a day on their mobile and it's a new study that's out in some of the headlines today by an app Fluid

Focus. Last year Ofcom found that across all adult age groups women are spending more time online, that's on smartphones tablets and computers, clocking up an extra 33 minutes more each day than men in May 2024 at 4 hours 36 minutes compared to 4 hours 3 minutes. Where is your screen time figure? I spoke to the Sunday Times journalist, Charlotte Ivers, a little earlier. She's been thinking about this and coming up with some concrete ways to reduce your screen time. If you want to get in touch, 84844 is the number to text.

I asked her first for her response to this new screen time data. I mean, it's both astonishing, isn't it? And completely unsurprising. I think if you'd said those stats 20 years ago, everyone would have thought that's absolutely astonishing. What on earth are these people doing? But I look at that and I think, okay, yeah, no,

that feels pretty reasonable. If you think of all the different things we're doing on our phones, if you think about the amount of school and college work these people will be doing on their phones and the amount of time we all spend in the office doing things on our phones then yeah that seems pretty unexciting to me. But it's something you've been thinking about and writing about as well, particularly when

it comes to our concentration spans, how they are when we get off and away from that little glowing screen. What do you think works? Well, this is a tricky one. So I wrote about this in the paper, the Sunday Times, where I work on Sunday. And essentially what I was trying to do in this article was to add in some positive ideas for what we can do on an individual level to try and reduce or even just manage our phone use. I don't want to give up my phone. I think Google Maps, Apple Maps are two of the finest inventions ever.

I like being in contact with my friends, but what I do want to do is make my phone work for me. And I want to be able to live happily alongside my phone. And for me, a lot of the cost of phones is an opportunity cost. What else could we be doing instead of being on our phones? And I think, as you mentioned, that falls into two big things. One is concentration spans, and the other one is our social lives, you know, the actual face-to-face looking at each other,

having a proper conversation. So let's talk about concentration spans first. That was something that I was quite worried about. And what I decided to do in order to try and fix this was to start with nice, intellectually nourishing, but short and funny and entertaining books and start with them, you know, 200 pages or so. The ones I suggest in the article are The President's Hat by Antoine Lorrain, which is a fantastically just charming and delightful book, and also Three Days in June by Anne Tyler which is a new book that she's just brought out and like everything she writes is

brilliant. From there you move up and I suggest you move into sort of the canonical classics but you go for ones that you know are going to be good fun. Don't try and jump straight to Charles Dickens in your process of trying to wean yourself back into actually reading words written on actual pages. And once you've done a couple of those, then you can get to the point incredibly quickly. And I was surprised how quickly I managed to train myself to do this. I can now very happily rip through an 800-word Victorian big tone, whereas probably this time last year, year I would have said there's absolutely no chance. It's so interesting I'm actually looking at you Charlotte with a lovely array of books that I can see behind you

including Caledonian Road for example. But do you insist in your transition on the paper book as opposed to an e-reader? I don't actually and one of the other tips that I gave in this article that I found has worked for me is obviously we all know we should delete the social media apps from our phones. It's such a natural thing isn't it? You pick it up and naturally your thumb just goes to say X or Instagram or something like that. But trying to go cold turkey on that, I think we'll just have you going back into the browser and, you know, searching for it and signing on. What I've found is a really good replacement is downloading a news app, obviously, I would suggest everyone download some times, but there are other newspapers available, and also the Kindle or Apple Books

app, something in that ilk. And that means that when you do pick up your phone, and we're all so accustomed to doing it, there is something else, something a bit more wholesome, bit more nourishing that you can click onto. And you can read a couple of pages of book or a couple of news articles, and you walk away better informed or having actually had some proper serious entertainments.

And in that way, you're getting the phone to work with you rather than against you really. You're using it for your own purposes. I love this one. Host a couple of parties a year is one of your tips. Yes, well, I had this interview that I did last week with Alice Evans, who's a sociologist at King's College London.

And she's done this fascinating research into why birth rates are falling. And she highlights all the usual things that you would have talked about on this program, about women's empowerment, about housing prices. Yeah, exactly. We can reel them off. But what she says as well is happening everywhere all the time and seems to have stronger explanatory power than any of these is that we are all spending so much time on our phones and on Netflix and on, you know, online streaming services that we aren't meeting each other anymore. And if you don't meet each other, you don't end up having children. And it's so much fun to be alone now that we don't really need partners. And I just thought,

wow, this is utterly miserable. We are not going out and having enough fun. And, you know, as a result, we could see genuinely quite bad social consequences. And so this is an idea, the two parties a year, I stole off an article in the Atlantic in January, which suggested this, and it pointed out that American adults, obviously, in American publication, they are having astonishingly fewer amounts of parties attending fewer parties. It was something like less than 5% of American adults on any given weekend have a social engagement. And so this was their suggestion to fix that. They said if you've got five friends and get them to pledge the

same, you guarantee yourself a party a month. And I think that's a pretty achievable goal. I love that. Yeah, I saw the article you referred to and a drop of 35% in party going, which is also a very sad statistic. You mentioned there, you know, we're having too much fun alone because I suppose we aren't really alone or we don't feel alone, perhaps, if we have our phone. I think so. And I do get the sense sometimes looking at some people I know that they have essentially taken group chats, WhatsApp, Facebook and they're sort of using it as a bit of a replacement for actually going out and having dinner with a friend or going for a walk in the park and I think it can serve as a really good replacement and some people have very busy lives and for

them this will be again what I was talking about earlier, making your phone work for you and getting something you wouldn't otherwise have had. But I don't think it's quite the same thing. And what I worry is we get to the end of the day and we feel sated because of one of these messaging services, but actually we aren't. And I do think that there is nothing quite like actually going out and seeing people in person. So yes, that's what I've been banging the drum for. Essentially just, you know, if you haven't seen one of your friends in a while, get on your phone, send them a message, and all that message should say is, what are you doing next week? Let's meet up.

And I think that's much better for all of us. You also have about thinking creatively. We spoke about reading there, You also have about thinking creatively. We spoke about reading there, but there's been a lot written as well about this fear of boredom. Yes, and I think back to my teenagers, and part of this is just what being a teenager is like, but I spent so much of my time being bored, and I spent so much of my time sort of creating my own little worlds and living within them and daydreaming and imagining and I don't really do that anymore and that's one of the big things that a lot of people in my life that I speak to worry about that they aren't having this sort of dead time for their brains and what sort of you know gurus will tell

you at this point is okay well you should be meditating you should be doing mindfulness and everyone righteously goes off and does this and we do it for one day maybe three days and then obviously it just falls off our routine we can't seem to sustain that type of thing most normal people so my suggestion instead is to find something physical probably something that you can do for an hour a day let's say that means you can't be on your phone. And maybe it's even something that bores you slightly. So for me, going to gym classes has really worked, particularly because you can't really lose focus because there's someone telling you exactly what to do.

It's very rude to leave halfway through, so you can't just wander off and look at your phone. But I think swimming would work. I think knitting would work. Not knitting while watching TV, which lots of people I know do. And I think as well, just, you know, going for a walk and leaving your phone at home as a bare minimum, that is a really good way to bore your brain into coming up with some creative thoughts. Have you ever tried grayscale, Charlotte? Do you know where you can put settings on your smartphone so that all the colours are gone? And it's just, it's basically your phone in black and white.

Yes, I have, because there are a bunch of studies aren't there where if you have a grayscale phone you don't have all of those you know shiny flashing lights that keep us addicted to it. I found it a little bit frustrating to be honest because one of the things I do like to use my phone for is taking photos and you know seeing other people's family photos or whatever and obviously if those are in grey, then you can't really enjoy them as much. Do you know what your screen time is?

I don't actually. I don't have that notification that tells you at the end of the week. I suspect mine isn't terrible. And again, I'm not sure that it's actually the sort of strict numbers that are the problem. There was an Ofcom survey last year that said that women spend more time on their phones than men, but actually feel that their

phone fits better into their life and serves them better than men do. So that I found quite intriguing. And I think that's that men find their phone, for example, instead of their phone fits into their life better than men do. phone, for example, instead of their phone fits into their life better than men do. If you know. Yes, yes, that's true. Although you can say in some cases. That's a whole other conversation, Charlotte. I do think if you're using your phone

for things that genuinely bring you joy and genuinely make your life better, that number on the screen doesn't matter quite that much. But I just do speak to people, particularly younger people who feel like the phone is taking over. And what's the point of that? That's no way to live. And, you know, what was it you were saying if we're going to spend 25 years of our lives on our phones, we'd better make it good. Well, just while we were listening to Charlotte Ivers there and thanks to her, you're getting in touch. 84844. My screen time, says Ailish, is awful. And my relationship with social media has always been rocky.

Deleted accounts several times, always gone back. Because I'm a photography degree student and need to get my work out there, I'm drastically trying to reduce my screen time to maybe two days a week without going cold turkey. I'm trying to be more present in life and I feel I'm doing okay with this. I think time without phones is so, so important and we all need to be a little bit more present. The next person does not agree. So fed up of people saying how we all gravitate to social media when we pick up our phones. No, we don't all do this. Another one. Michelle Nottingham. Phone time. It's not surprising that women are on

the phone more. Think of all those school WhatsApp groups, sports clubs, family holiday arrangements and general household admin that tend to fault wives and mothers and not the men. This seems like yet another women blaming exercise. 84844. If you'd like to get in touch, I do love to hear from you. And I particularly love it in August when my favorite time of the year comes up. Listener week. That is the week where we hand the programme over to you. You choose the topics and we dedicate that first week of August to exploring them with you.

Now if there's something that you think we really should be discussing or maybe you want us to know more about you and what you do, I want to hear it. Get in touch, 844 on text, on social media it's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 037001444. You had some cracking ideas last year. Let's see what you come up with this year. I have some news this around the weekend that I want to bring to you today. Just a couple of months ago here on Woman's Hour I interviewed the this year. I have some news this is from the weekend that I want to bring to you today.

Just a couple of months ago here on Woman's Hour I interviewed the unofficial leader of the opposition of Belarus that was Sviatlana Tikhanovskaya. She felt compelled to go into politics following the arrest and subsequent imprisonment of her husband Sergei. He stood in the election against the current president Lukashenko. Sviatlana joined me to mark five years since her husband's detention, two of those she believed were in solitary confinement, but she wasn't actually sure whether he was still alive, they had zero contact. Well this weekend on Saturday he was released, this was a surprising move following a visit by the US Special Envoy to Belarus. Sviatlana has shared a moving video of the pair embracing. She said it was hard to describe the joy in her heart. I want to bring you a little bit

of my interview with her where she described the experience of waiting for her husband's release. I don't know where he is in what physical state he is and you know of course it's a huge burden on the shoulders of relatives not knowing where are they beloved, where are their friends and relatives. But regime wants to break those people in prisons. They want to persuade them that they abandoned. Nobody cares about them. Look, lawyer is not visiting you, nobody is sending letters to you, so the world has forgotten

about you. And they want them to stop believing that the world is fighting for them. Of course it is difficult. I'm talking to my children every day explaining, especially to my younger daughter, that your daddy is in prison and we don't know when we will see him. But you know, we are doing everything possible to release our people, to release all those heroes who are kept behind bars. Sviatlana there back in April before her husband was released this weekend. Some of the photographs, there are hugs and joy, but he is very emaciated as well

which is illustrating his time in solitary confinement and the conditions he was in in Belarus. You can listen to the full interview by going to the Woman's Hour episode for the 28th of April and that's on BBC 7. I'm Andini and I'm looking back on the life of a Hollywood icon whose legacy lives on through more than just her film roles. She was someone who was interested in invention all her life. She wasn't that interested in the film that she was supposed to be starring in. She was much more interested in the latest invention that she was working on. Who developed an idea so revolutionary that it's still being used today.

Frequency hopping. It was used for secure military communications. It's in GPS, it's in Wi-Fi, it's in Bluetooth. From the BBC World Service, untold legends, Hedy Lamarr. Available now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Thanks for all your messages that continue to come in. Some on Jade as well. Jade's story would seem unbelievable, except that I've heard it before in relation to many other child victims. It makes me so angry. I wish Jade every success in her future life and if there's any justice, she is surely due substantial compensation says Julia. Another from Hazel Jade sounds just like

this sort of person that would be great to work with girls at risk of child sexual exploitation. It's ironic that Jade has been criminalised so unfairly herself and it's prevented her from being able to pursue this up to now. Hopefully as she says this will change so that she can bring out her knowledge her experience and her understanding into working with vulnerable youngsters. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. I want to turn now to heart valve disease. More than half of heart valve disease cases are women,

yet less than half of heart valve surgeries and procedures are on women. Now, this is according to new data from the charity Heart Valve Voice. Heart valve disease is when one or more of your heart valves do not work like they should and it can affect blood flow and put an extra strain on the heart. So how can women's symptoms be taken more seriously? I'm joined in the Women's Hour studio now by cardiologist Dr. Alison Duncan from the Royal Brompton Hospital in London and HVD as Heart Valve Disease is known, patient Jekyll and who was initially misdiagnosed with anxiety. You're both very welcome.

Thank you very much. Let me begin with you doctor. The charity Heart Valve Voice has released the figures today showing that women have the condition more than men. Tell me a little bit about that. So as you said already heart valve disease is a condition where one or more of the heart valves don't work properly and this is very important because their role is to direct the flow through the heart so you can have a patient could have a sticky valve where it doesn't open very well or a leaking valve where it regurgitates and both of these two types of conditions can put a strain on

the heart which can then present with symptoms such as breathlessness, palpitations, fatigue and occasionally chest pain. And I think one of the problems that we're facing in the female population is that some of these symptoms coexist at the time when they present with other things that are going on in their life, particularly around the middle part of their lives when symptoms, as I've just described, could be misdiagnosed as being menopausal or anxiety or ageing. So it is important to understand that while some patients have pathological symptoms, they may not be taken

seriously and put down to the time in a woman's life that she's presenting. I see Jacqueline is nodding. Would you like to tell us a little of your story? Yeah, yeah, I was nodding there because in full agreement, I was diagnosed with a heart murmur aged 11 and nothing was done. It was just that you've got a heart murmur. Went through life, you know, I was a nurse, I had a great job then in the pharmaceutical industry, doing very well, but I'd had symptoms in the past which were more or less related to me being tall and very slim in those days. I would faint sometimes if I stood up too quickly or whatever. But then my real symptoms which led to my diagnosis or my misdiagnosis to begin with was only a couple of years ago. So I was aged 63 and started to get severely breathless, particularly

when I was walking into work. There was a little bridge over Paddington Station that I had to walk over and sometimes I'd get halfway over and just literally had to grab hold of the wall and I couldn't breathe. And that was a gradual change or sudden? It was, I would say that it was, I think I noticed it more suddenly. It possibly was there gradually, but I'd lost my mum that year. And so when I first went to the GP and said you know I'm a bit worried about this breathlessness and fatigue and palpitations they said well you know it could be anxiety or it could be menopause despite the fact that

I'd had a total hysterectomy age 46 46. So, you know, there was no way. But it's, eventually, it was diagnosed, but it took a long while. But you went privately. I did. When you didn't get your first diagnosis. That's right. That's right. So I went through the NHS GP who referred me to a cardiologist at the local hospital. I had a couple of tests, had an ECG and then they sent me for an angiogram. Some of the results were lost unfortunately and then I got a letter from them discharging me from cardiac care saying there was nothing

wrong and I knew there was something wrong. So I took it upon myself to go to a private consultant cardiologist and it was the best £200 I've ever paid for anything. What happened? So as soon as I went in, told him my symptoms, the very first thing he did was listen to my heart with a stethoscope and he knew straight away what was wrong and said that he thought it was a problem with my aortic valve and that I would need open heart surgery.

And? And I had it. I went on to the NHS via him to the hospital where he was a consultant. Within weeks I'd seen the cardiac surgeon and it turned out I was born with a bicuspid valve in my aortic valve rather than a tricuspid which everyone else has and I needed the surgery. And you had the surgery because this brings me back to you, Alison. Men are more likely to be treated for heart valve disease than women, even though there are more cases of women having it. Women live longer, which is probably one of the factors

adding to those statistics. But why are women not getting treated at the same level as men? Well, I think it's extraordinarily complicated and there's multiple reasons for that. adding to those statistics. But why are women not getting treated at the same level as men? Well, I think it's extraordinarily complicated and there's multiple reasons for that. But may I just say, from now listening to Jackie's story, the part of that pathway that failed was when you first approached the general practitioner that he didn't listen to your heart with a stethoscope because a malfunctioning heart valve will present as a murmur which is turbulent flow so you can hear this with an echo. But to get back to your question, you can hear this with a stethoscope, to get back

to your question there are several reasons why women have potentially less treated than men. Number one is, first of all, they don't necessarily themselves present themselves to their doctors because they themselves get confused or unsure about their symptom burden because of the overlap with the natural potential ageing process of women and particularly changes in hormonal cycles with pregnancy and or menopause. When they do go to their general practitioner, that general practitioner needs to listen to their chest. If the stethoscope is not used, that's a missed opportunity. But let's say the patient then does go and have an echo scan. A lot of the cutoffs for valve indication

are based on numerical criteria and intrinsically women's hearts are smaller than men's hearts and so it can be a problem because if you're looking for a cutoff number over which a heart is too enlarged which would then trigger the referral to a heart intervention, women's hearts are smaller than that and so it can take a lot longer for the echo clinician to appreciate that this is actually significant valve disease. It almost reminds me of seat belts, for example, that are made for the male body as opposed to the female. That, so the male size is too big, or bigger than it is for females. And then second complicated reason

is as a result, a lot of the clinical trials that decide about informing guidelines for when to intervene on a patient with valve disease are based on the male echo findings. And so we've got sort of a double edged sword there. We've got an undiagnosed valve disease in women and based on the slightly higher male size which is the cut-offs that we use for valve guidelines. And is there any campaign or moves towards changing that? Well this is increasingly becoming an awareness that clinicians are becoming aware of and the guideline committees are becoming aware of. And so, yes, there are in the medical profession, but also the Heart Valve Voice itself is a patient organisation that is aware that women potentially need a more specific and targeted care pathway for their valve heart disease. Women's heart

valve voices matter. And and so there's a website that you can go to, Heart Valve Voice and in fact also endorsed by the British Heart Valve Society where if you click on to their website there'll be a lot of information that women can use to advocate their own heart health. If they are suffering from some of these symptoms what they should go to their GP? Always go to your GP, have a low threshold for your own clinical care. Have a low threshold, that's interesting. A low threshold because it is confusing, it may be menopause, but you may be missing significant

valve disease. And when you go to your primary healthcare clinician or team, whether it's a practice nurse or a general practitioner, do please ask for them to listen to your heart with a stethoscope. It's extraordinarily important, and it should pick up valve disease even at this very early stage. Jacqueline is nodding there.

How are you feeling now after going through your surgery? Well, I'm great. I feel great. And echoing what the doctors just said about getting the GP to listen to your chest with the stethoscope. I didn't have that at all and I would just recommend any woman who is having those symptoms, you know, fatigue, breathlessness, palpitations, you know, just don't stop, keep asking, keep pushing.

Really helpful. Thank you both for coming in. Dr. Alison Duncan and Jacqueline and I'm glad you're well Jacqueline and after going through that and then offering that information as well to our listeners Heart Valve Disease and learning about it this morning. We've also been talking about phones this morning. Some of you have some tips for getting off it. For using your phone less and spending more time with people, volunteering in your local community is a wonderful thing to do.

For example, train as a first aider and attend community events. Be part of a team, create friendships, spend time doing something useful that brings you joy. That one from Anne. Jean instead, she's like gardening is a great way to stay off your phone. Nurturing plants can be calming and satisfying.

And there's another one. Of course, women spend more time on their phones than men. Women still do the majority of the household management, paying bills, order shopping, arrange play dates, buy gifts for his side of the family too. We're not all playing bingo. I'm not sure who sent in that one, but thank you very much for it. I want to move on to Ukraine. In the news you may have seen at least seven people have been killed, several injured in an overnight Russian missile and drone attack in the Kiev region, the Interior Minister has said and it hit residential areas, hospitals and also sports

infrastructure. It is three years on since the war Russia began but more and more women are choosing to leave the country to continue their lives in Europe to either study or work. Young men have been banned from leaving Ukraine as you may know after they turn 18 since the war broke out and martial law was introduced but young women are free to leave. The freelance journalist Gabriella Yusviyak is living in the city of Lviv talking to young women about their plans for the future. Good to have you with us, Gabriella. Tell me a little bit about the moves that women are making, the way they're making those decisions to leave. Oh, hi. Thank you for having me. I just want to say that I actually live in London

and I do travel backwards and forwards to Lviv. Actually, the last time I was there was in December and this is where I heard about this sort of new wave of migration amongst specifically 17 year old women, so young girls, still children, on the cusp of adulthood. It's kind of an interesting point where they suddenly have a moment of decision. So do they stay in the country where they've already stayed for three years? Although some of them that I had actually left originally back in 2022 and returned again with their families. I think it's a point where especially the parents can see that they need to make a big decision about their future.

And they they believe that the children are going to have a better chance of developing and being safe and being happy outside of the country. So it was specifically looking at that age because in Ukraine children start university a year earlier than they do in the UK. So that's also quite interesting because it means that effectively a child is entering a country alone because many of them are going by themselves and many of them are choosing to go to Poland, that's the country that has the highest population of Ukrainian students at bachelor level, bachelor degree level. But others are going to countries where they can't actually speak the language at all, like Lithuania, Austria is another popular destination,

even Poland, Ukrainian is very similar to Polish, but many children, although they learn a bit of Polish at school, it's not going to be at degree level. So they go to a country, they don't know many people, they go to university, they start studying in a foreign language, but that to them is preferable than choosing one of their own universities, which is quite surprising because Ukraine actually has a very established and wonderful higher education system. But is it, Gabriella, just the insecurity of the situation that is driving them? What do they tell you? So what I found out is it's kind of two things.

It certainly is the wartime climate and the constant situation. You know, it's funny we're talking about mobile phones, because when I went to visit this class of students, there are about 30 students in this school, let's say 66. They all have their phones on the desk. And I was really surprised because that's very much not the case here in the UK but then I remembered that they need to be prepared at any minute to get an

air alarm warning coming through one of the telegram apps or something so they need to have their phones on all the time even in the night really for their security and so that climate is quite wearing at the same at least after three years and some of the girls I spoke to had described how their cousins or you know friends had had difficulties during exams and had perhaps received lower grades because they'd had exams interrupted by air raids. So that is part of it is getting away from this instability

but another thing that really struck me was one girl who told me that she had evacuated from La Perugia, which is in the east of the country, and moved to Lviv with her family, and had then begun visiting Poland to kind of have a bit of respite from the war situation. And it kind of opened up her mind. She'd never thought before about leaving Ukraine. Her dream had always been to study in in Kyiv and the capital or in Kharkiv which is not like the second city of Ukraine and but suddenly she saw like beautiful Lviv which is the UNESCO heritage site. She went to Krakow which is also a very famous beautiful city in Poland and

began sort of having different dreams and ideas and I think that came through with some of the interviews that the war has opened up the country. All of these foreigners have come in, NGO workers, suddenly there's a big interest in Ukrainian culture. And the flip side of that is that young people are then becoming interested in other cultures beyond themselves as well.

But there is a strange thing that happens. One is a brain drain. And the other is this division of gender for those with the means to be able to leave while the young men that are 17, 18 cannot. It's really, I mean I find it tragic really because you know boys that are aged 17, some of them will, it will never cross their minds to leave and they will say, you know, I'm absolutely staying here. If I get called up, you know, the age of conscription is actually 25 at the moment. So they might say it's far away, I'll be fine. And if I am going to be called up, that I'm ready to fight and defend my country. But other boys won't be feeling like that.

I think that's fair enough. They don't want to join the military. They might be feeling that they can defend their country in other ways. So actually I've heard of boys, met boys who are going off to study cyber security at foreign universities and they say we can go and learn some knowledge from a different country and bring it back and help the country in the future. But some of the boys I spoke to also were reluctant to say that they agreed with having left the country.

It was more that their parents wanted them to go. So sometimes it's the parents that are very concerned about their children and kind of push them to go out because if you don't cross that border before your 18th birthday, that's it basically. There's no second chance. But I also, the tragic aspect you talk about, you know, that huge decision that must be made by the parents as well as by that child, about where they will live. And you know, you may have the intention of going home, but perhaps you won't. You know what I mean? It is kind of a cleaving

between the present and the future. Absolutely, yeah. And the young people that I interviewed, some have just finished their exams and are hoping to study abroad from September or October. But I spoke to a few that had left last year already. And they said it wasn't easy to integrate. And if you're doing your studies, they said they preferred it when the teachers or the lecturers sent them information online, then they could put it through a translation, AI thing, but actually to go out in real life and go to shops and try and communicate with people was quite tricky. But over time they've got used to it. Of course they're still very worried about what's happening back home the whole time and they know their parents and their friends that they stayed

in the country are still in a place of danger and every time there's an attack, you know, they're going to be worried about that and also constantly carrying on that sense of guilt that they have left and they're not there. But as far as the brain drain question goes, it is very concerning. And I spoke to a professor for this article, Quotito Wurli, who's an Italian at the 2022, and saying that what they really need to do is try and keep that connection. So if the student has family back in Ukraine, it's perhaps more likely they will return. But if they don't, there's a falling population in Europe, in Western Europe, so we want more workers.

There is perhaps a better next conditions and life opportunities in Western Ukraine, so you want to stay and get a good job in. I understand, you know, life happens, right? Gabriella Yousfiak, thank you very much for giving us that snapshot to what is happening to young women in Ukraine. Do join Claire McDonnell tomorrow, she'll be speaking to Baroness Gabby Burton four months on from her government commissioned review into online pornography. What's her assessment of things now? That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Nick Robinson. You might be tired of switching on the news, hearing those pre-rehearsed soundbites, the lines to take from those who shape our lives. When politics is as fragmented, as unpredictable, as fraught as it is now, it can be hard to cut through the noise. That is precisely my aim on Political Thinking, my podcast from BBC Radio 4. I have extended conversations with those who shape our political thinking. I try to get to the heart of what makes these people tick, what lies behind what you're

seeing or hearing on the news. That's Political Thinking with me, Nick Robinson. You can listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Andini and I'm looking back on the life of a Hollywood icon whose legacy lives on through more than just her film roles. She was someone who was interested in invention all her life. She wasn't that interested in the film that she was supposed to be starring in. She was much more interested in the latest invention that she was working on.

Who developed an idea so revolutionary that it's still being used today. Frequency hopping. It was used for secure military communications. It's in GPS, it's in Wi-Fi, it's in Bluetooth. From the BBC World Service, Untold Legends, Hedy Lamarr. Available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.