Woman's Hour - Child marriage, Jack the Ripper's victims

Episode Date: March 26, 2019

According to the children’s charity World Vision, nine percent of girls in Afghanistan are married before the age of 15. Jane speaks to Helen Clark, former Prime Minister of New Zealand who's been working with this charity to tackle this issue. She recently came back from Afghanistan where she spent time with the families affected by this. She also shares her views on the recent mosque attacks.Hallie Rubenhold’s new book focuses on the lives of Mary Jane Kelly, Polly Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes. ‘The Five’ is about the women who were murdered by Jack the Ripper, and not about him.Also on the programme, Jane speaks to Judy Kuhn,the voice of Disney’s 1995 classic Pocahontas. She’s also a four time Tony Award nominated Broadway star who is currently performing on the West End stage playing the part of Golde in latest revival of Fiddler on the Roof at the Playhouse Theatre. Jane finds out how the much loved musical mimics Judy’s own family history.Producer: Sej Asar

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. This is the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday 26th March 2019. And today we'll talk to the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Helen Clark, about some of her experiences on a World Vision charity visit to Afghanistan and she'll talk too about the events in Christchurch recently, will reclaim the lives of the victims of the 19th century serial killer

known as Jack the Ripper, and the Broadway star Judy Kuhn, who's about to play Golda in a new production of Fiddler on the Roof in the West End of London. First then to Helen Clark, Prime Minister of New Zealand between 1999 and 2008. Then she went on to work for the UN Development Programme. She's just got back from looking at some World Vision charity projects in Afghanistan, where 9% of girls are married before they get to 15.

Although officially, marriage under the age of 16 is illegal, but some families say they're driven to marry off their daughters because they are utterly poverty stricken. You'll hear more about Afghanistan in a moment. First, though, I asked Helen Clark about the recent terrorist attacks in Christchurch. For nine days, the country was in shock, disbelief, grief, with an incredibly inclusive approach towards the Muslim communities of New Zealand. And Jacinda Ardern did lead it brilliantly. We're now going into another phase where the strength in gun law is becoming before Parliament. And also the Prime Minister's announced a Royal Commission of Inquiry into what lay behind this.

And that will raise a number of issues as to whether our authorities were on top of the kind of threat that men like that one present. So you would argue that perhaps some uncomfortable questions are now going to be asked? I think the Royal Commission will look in every corner to see whether we could have done better. And there's already some indications that we could have. Would you say that actually the truth is you could have done all sorts of things? Terrorism of this type, unfortunately for all of us, is just about possible in any corner of the world at any time? there's been so much focus on the jihadi kind of threat that perhaps in western societies we have not been conscious enough of the threat of these alt-right extremists who network continually through social media and other platforms and egg each other on and this man was one of those who tipped over into acts of extreme violence. Maybe we should as a society, as Western societies, also start to be honest about the gender involved here because mass shootings are rarely, if ever, carried out by women.

There's not too many real-life Thelma and Louises. These tend to be very angry men who are doing these shootings. If we look at some of the series of shootings in the US, for example, with the schools, there's this terrible tragedy in New Zealand. So, yes, it's a worry. Well, do you think people are fighting shy of asking that gender question? Because if overwhelmingly, if let's say 95% of mass shootings were carried out by women, I have the feeling that in fact, we would be talking about the gender aspect to it.

Yes, I think you're right. It's not a crime that women are featuring in. So why do you think we still aren't having this conversation outside environments like this one? Well, I think this is one of the ugly truths that we need to confront. What is it about our societies which is producing these extremely angry, violent men who are prepared to play out their fantasies of horror and kill other human beings? You have just come back from Afghanistan, I think really very recently,

visiting a range of projects there. And of course, that is a country where women have scarcely any grip on any kind of rights in terms of society. But we were always told that Western intervention in Afghanistan would improve their lot. From what you've witnessed recently, what would you say about that? Well, I first went to Afghanistan in 2003, which was probably a couple of years after the fall of the Taliban government and Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda hiding in the caves and making it out to Pakistan. And I think at that time there was perhaps some hope that things could be improved. I went back again as UNDP administrator to find Kabul much more locked down than it had been when I'd been there 12 years before. This visit, I go out to the western provinces and to see the level of poverty and deprivation there. You sit back and think, where did the trillions of dollars go? Because it didn't go

to the poorest of the poor to change their lives. Well, we were told that one of the reasons we had intervened in Afghanistan was in particular, actually, to improve the lot of women and girls. Did you see any evidence that their chances have improved? Well, you see, schooling, public schooling, is now free. But with World Vision, I was meeting families who were so poor that it wasn't possible for the children to go to school. There may be a range of children who have to go out to work every day

because dad is absent, either dead or, in some of the cases we met, addicted to drugs and not able to perform any useful function at all. And so these children from the time they're three and four are out on the street working. Going to school is not a practicality as well. You have to pay for your school supplies. So putting it all together, the poverty is keeping the children out of school. Anything positive to say about it at all? So what was positive was looking at some of the programming, working with imams to help families make the decision not to sell their daughters.

Now, when I went, it was very much with a focus on what was happening for women and girls and the issue of forced child marriage, which is happening for children quite young, let's say 11, 12, 13. And we met a couple of families with girls of that age where the girls had been put up for marriage, in one case by a dad who wanted to pay his bills, and in the other by a mother who could never pay her rent and agreed that, yes, her daughter could be made available for marriage. How old were these girls? One was 12, one was 13, and we met them.

They're little girls. I just can't contemplate this, and I think in both cases they were destined to be second wives. But what made the big difference was that the imams got involved, and they have been through a training program which tells them about the dangers of child marriage and the need for children to have a chance. And they were able to work with the families.

You're not supposed to be able to get married in Afghanistan until you are 16. Well, that's right. But it happens all the time. And we were talking with mothers who themselves were forced into marriage at these adolescent ages. What was their view of it now?

They didn't want that for their daughters. They were under extreme pressure. One mother said, look, I can never pay the rent. Every three months I move to another place because I can never pay the rent. And I was offered enough to maybe pay for a year's rent. And so when we said, well, what turned the tide for you? She said, when it was put to me that I had been very unhappy when it happened to me. And then she started to cry because she didn't want that for her daughter.

And it was a brave decision because she didn't have any money. When you put it like that, it is absolutely heartbreaking. The imams that you spoke to that you've been involved in trying to educate, had they in the past carried out ceremonies involving child brides? These ones who now work and relate through to the Ministry of Religious Affairs don't, but they do say there are some who are not in that network who may be more kind of very local level mullahs who will still do it, perhaps for a small consideration. But the ones who are in the network with the Ministry of Religious Affairs, they are very

much trained up to say to the families, this is not good for your daughter. What is it like for you, somebody who comes from a obviously Western society, reached an incredibly high level Prime Minister, apart from Head of state, which wasn't a possibility for you, couldn't have got any higher. What is it like when you encounter women and girls like this who've got just absolutely no status whatsoever in their country? Well, very, very humbling. You sit with families and you think, how much worse can it get?

With one family, a little mother in her late 20s, seven children, the oldest a 14 year old boy. So that boy must have been born when she was around between 13 and 14. And the youngest one was two. Dad was addicted to drugs and not really home at all. In fact, better when he wasn't was the impression that we got. Every morning the children are put out to work. None of them go to school. No one can read in that family at all. And that was where a 12-year-old was to be put up for marriage to pay the father's bills. Apart from the agony of all that, there was a small boy in the family who was beckoned over and the mother said, show the visitors your scar.

And this boy had been working on the street. Mum couldn't find him at night. He was eventually located in a clinic where it appears he had a kidney removed. He'd sold it. For trafficking. No, the child didn't know what was happening to him. Oh my. So he was kidnapped and operated on. It was horrendous. Actually, I mean, I genuinely, I'm shocked almost into silence by that. We were shocked into silence. So what, I suppose I just have to come back to the question, what good has all our involvement and the loss of lives, the loss of British lives, lives of troops from all over.

What has this all been about? Well, it hasn't been about development, that's for sure, because the poorest of the poor are as poor as they ever were. And here's the rub in the western provinces. They are suffering a one-in-a-hundred-year drought, and families, desperate families, have walked away from their rural hamlets because their livestock have all died and they've run out of food,

haven't been able to grow anything for two years. So on the outskirts of Herat and the other big capital in the Bad Gis province, you have well over 300,000 people in very crude shelters. Some have decent tents, most don't. And we saw those. We went into a hospital on the edge of Herat where you saw children in as bad a condition as the ones we saw in Yemen on the television, and yet this has had almost no profile.

Now, it's at the point now where there's likely to be able to be a return, but you can't return unless you have money for livestock, money for another planting. And my experience working in development for eight years with UNDP was that it's hard enough to get money for relief sometimes but to get money for recovery and re-establishing livelihoods can be very difficult but that's a task that's needed right now in Afghanistan. Being Prime Minister obviously means that you have all kinds of issues come across your desk you never know one day from the next really what you're going to be confronted by. I don't know whether there is a kind of informal network

of prime ministers and ex-prime ministers that can communicate with each other. And you know what I'm going to ask you now is, were you ever in your time as prime minister of New Zealand ever up against it in the way that Theresa May appears to be right now? No, no, I never faced a crisis like this. And it is a profound constitutional, political, even economic crisis for Britain. And, you know, one day I hope Theresa May will get to really tell her side of the story.

But it has been an extraordinary series of events to watch from afar. What would you say about it? Well, from my perspective as a New Zealander, we have had one major set of referenda on a constitutional issue, and that was on the nature of the voting system. We never would have dreamed of doing it in a single referendum. We did it in a two-stage. We first asked people whether they wanted the change, and if so, to indicate what the form of it would be. We then came back with a second referendum with all the details worked out.

And I think that was what was missing in Britain. So what do you think now then? We should have another referendum? Well, that's asking me to get into the British political debate. Just purely theoretically. But it should never have been set up as a one-stage referendum. And again, the gender question. Some people say women tend to become leaders of countries when, frankly, the going isn't particularly good

and no man would be willing to take it on. Any view on that? I think when all else fails, often people will turn to women to do the job. Yes, in fact, you could say that Jacinda, in a sense, has been a beneficiary of that because after I left New Zealand politics, my party went through four male leaders, none of whom could get the party into a winning position. Seven weeks out from an election when things were dire,

they turned to Jacinda and said, please do it. And look what happened. I mean, she's been a star, but she was turned to when they were in desperate need. Have you talked to her recently? I've been in touch with her, yes. And just again, human interest, I'm not going to ask you to give away any secrets, but how is she? She's very strong and she's run really completely on instinct. There's no script for what you need to do in a tragedy like this. But I think the New Zealand way when something like this affects our people

is we all rally around. It's been very, very inclusive. Jacinda said a good tone, but also from the community up, New Zealanders have embraced the Muslim community in cities and towns across New Zealand. Really interesting. To get the view of Helen Clark, who was Prime Minister of New Zealanders have embraced the Muslim community in cities and towns across New Zealand. Really interesting. To get the view of Helen Clark, who was Prime Minister of New Zealand between 1999 and 2008. Now let's talk to the author, Hallie Rubenhall. Welcome to the programme, Hallie. Hi.

Her book is called The Five, and it's about Mary Ann Nicholls, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly. And these are women's names that you may not know. We all should know them. And I guess your book really, Hallie, is about reclaiming these women, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. I mean, they have not had a voice, I was going to say for 130 years, but actually ever. And I suppose we ought to now say why people might know something or think they know something about these women. Well, I'm hoping that because of the publicity the book has had, that people are now at least in the very least familiar with their names.

Well, I'm not sure that they are. All I knew was that Jack the Ripper, the serial killer that is at the heart, well actually possibly not at the heart of your story, was the man who took their lives. We don't know who that person is and let's not waste any more time discussing who that person might have been in fact because I know you're passionate about the other side of this, which is about these women and how they attempted to live their lives because these were desperate times for poor women. Yes, it was. It was incredibly difficult. If you were a poor woman in Victorian London, I mean, it was absolutely essential that you were part of a family group. You know, this idea that we have today that being single is somehow empowering was certainly not the case in the Victorian era, especially if you were poor, but really for any woman. And women were wholly dependent on men really for their subsistence, for their livelihood. I mean, they could contribute to family income, but society was designed in a way so that women could never be the breadwinners.

So that meant the options for the very poor were what exactly? Well, pretty, pretty paltry, actually. Well, I mean, you had to be part of a family group. If you were a woman, and you wanted to contribute to a family income, there were things like, well, you could be a charwoman, you could work in a factory, any type of menial work, working as a laundress. And obviously, the golden ticket at this time was domestic service. And domestic service was really the only way in which a woman could move out of a position of poverty into one of, you know, where she could put some money aside, and she might be able to put some money aside

for a future, really. But that was gruelling. I mean, it wasn't an easy option, was it? Incredibly difficult. It was incredibly difficult. And, you know, we're talking about working from sunup to sundown. Well, even beyond sundown, depending on whose house you were working in. Let's talk then more specifically about these five women. First of all, they are popularly believed to have all been sex workers, all from Whitechapel in East London. Neither of those two things are actually true. Absolutely untrue. This is the thing that people find so fascinating about this is every sort of misconception, well, every

conception we have about them is almost a misconception. And that's largely down to the fact that the media over the years has popularised this image of these kind of young sex workers sauntering under the gas lights, which isn't true at all. None of them originally came from Whitechapel, but they all ended up there. And my research found that there is only conclusive evidence to suggest that two were involved in sex work at all. And how do you know that two probably were? Because there are actual records. And there are, you know, in the

case of Mary Jane Kelly, there was a very, very clear paper trail that she was and she self-identified as that. With Elizabeth Stride, again, there's a very clear paper trail. We find it in the records. We know that, well, she came from Gothenburg, Sweden, and there are police records stating that she was a sex worker. How did she get to London? Well, this is from Gothenburg, Sweden, and there are police records stating that she was a sex worker. How did she get to London? Well, this is part of her very interesting story. Well, she was an immigrant. She found herself in, I think the only way we can describe it is kind of state-sanctioned prostitution in Gothenburg, where she had, she basically found herself pregnant. She'd been a

servant, and then she found herself in prostitution, because at the time in Sweden, it was believed that a woman without a partner who was pregnant could only be one thing. And so that meant that the only door open to her was prostitution. She eventually got out of that, but not without syphilis. And then she was able to immigrate to the UK. You paint such a vivid picture of the Doss houses of London. And I was really, it so haunts you that people would try to do just about anything, including hitching their wagon to a man they barely knew just in order to share a terrible, dirty, dirty double bed in a flop house. Because that was a way of keeping warm,

quite literally. Yeah, it was a way of surviving, really. And also, you have to think that if you're with a man, a man can bring in more money. You might be able to bring in more money. You can pool your resources. You have a little bit more. You might be able to eat that day. So it was actually very important for a man to have a woman as well. And so if you split up with your partner, you know, social observers were incredibly taken aback by the way in which the rapidity with which people coupled and uncoupled amongst this class. So, you know, somebody might lose their partner that day and then they found somebody else by the next day who they're actually living with.

But it was a question of survival. It was absolutely about survival and I think we've completely misinterpreted this. Annie Chapman, they're all sad stories, it goes without saying, but Annie Chapman's story struck me as being particularly tragic, not least because her family were on the up. They could have gone places. Yes, yeah.

I mean, Annie's story really moved me as well. And Annie's story moves really quite a lot of people. I mean, Annie had an opportunity really to have a better and more comfortable life and for her family as well. She came from a family, well, she was the daughter of a man who was a trooper in the Second Lifeguard. So he was part of the household cavalry, who then became a gentleman's valet. So

if you can imagine Bates in Downton, that's what her father was. And then she married a gentleman's coachman. And she lived on a country estate, outside of Windsor with her husband. And it's even believed that she sent her daughters to a fee paying school. But Annie was an alcoholic. I mean, she had inherited alcoholism from her father. And the evils of drink, gin alley, all that stuff that I really felt the impact of alcohol and alcohol abuse in your book. We don't actually, it's almost like we've forgotten about all this. But women were really brought to absolute destitution by addiction to that particular drug. Yes, and it affected everybody. And it's, you know, you can really understand when groups like the Salvation Army came into the slums and were trying to persuade people to embrace temperance. Because really even saving that little bit amount, that little bit of money that you would have normally spent on drink

would have made an enormous difference in somebody's life. It would have made an enormous difference in the quality of their lives, in the quality of their children's lives. And yet alcohol was always there. It was cheaper than food in some cases. Cheaper than food? Yes, it was always available. And of course it kept you warm. And it kept you warm and it warded off melancholy as well.

Yeah, and melancholy clearly, because life was so tough, would be a very real thing. Let's talk then about the industry surrounding the serial killer because that is monumental. And that is why you have had such a tough time researching the lives of these women. Yeah, I think, you know, there's, we have some very fixed cultural beliefs about who these women were and what they did. And, and I think, you know, from the very outset, it was believed by the police and by the press that these women had been sex workers. And very little question was, was,

you know, there's very little question about, you know, whether this was true or not. And as a result, I think it's something, you know, we just have accepted over the years. And why have we accepted it? Because, you know, that's a very good question. Because I think there is still very much a current in our own society, and there always has been that, you know, bad women deserve to be punished. Yes, just remind everybody of what the judge said in the summing up of the serial killer in Suffolk. It's relatively recent, a couple of years ago. It's extraordinary.

I mean, here we are in the 21st century and so the Suffolk stranger, Steve Wright, when his judge summed up, was doing the summing up for the jury, he basically said,

I want you to disregard everything you think you know about these women, you know, every judgment you have about the drugs they took, the lifestyle they led. And I just want you to realise that whether or not you agree with this, these women did not deserve to be murdered. And the fact that we had to say that today in the 21st century kind of tells you everything you need to know. And I know you also feel passionate about what's taught in schools, because this sort of, I suppose you could call it loosely popular history, is a way, or so we're told, of inviting young people into history. But it's a very difficult area. Yeah, I mean,

it was really interesting as i was doing the work for the book um some of the things that i came across were teaching materials that were available online um i mean just absolutely extraordinary like you know copy this this mutilated picture of mary jane kelly into this box copy this picture yes yeah i'm unbelievable i don't know what purpose this actually even serves. But I've had teachers getting in touch with me and saying, yes, there are some teachers who go full pelt on this, who really go blood and guts in order to get the kids interested in the subject matter. And there are other teachers who steer well away from it. Right. What do you think should happen? Well, I think there are other more creative ways of introducing the topic of the Victorian slum and Victorian social conditions other than relying on Jack the Ripper.

Hallie, thank you very much indeed. Anyone who's ever used the expression good old days and referred it back to this era. So we're talking sort of 1880. when were the killings? 1888? The killings were in 1888, but the women's lives spanned almost the entire Victorian era. And trust me, they are well worth reading about. Thank you very much, Hallie. You're welcome. The book is called The Five, The Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper. And there'll be more from Hallie in the Women's Hour podcast available later, because I'm really keen to talk to her about how you go about researching the lives of the poor. So there's loads more to talk about, so more from Hallie a little later.

Now, I hope you saw this time on BBC One last night, and a newly woke Alan Partridge and his co-presenter, Jenny Gresham, are interviewing a sofa guest about forgotten women of science. So you're perhaps best known as one of the regulars on Radio 4's Woman's Hour. Which, by the way, guys, well worth a listen. Oh, I wouldn't have had you down as a fan, Alan. Well, it's a curious story.

I was actually stuck in traffic and Classic FM were playing music from an advert which I dislike. So I found myself listening to Woman's Hour and I thought, this is actually good. Tell your friends. I did. I told ten men. And they will tell ten men. And they will tell ten men and they will tell 10 men to tell 10 men to tell 10 men. It sounds like the kind of song you'd sing on a coach trip, but it's actually true. Yeah, I just don't know how to take the fact that Alan Partridge is now

listening to the programme and we are playing a small part in his feminist awakening or perhaps even a big part. So I think if I could, I'd pat myself on the back for that. Thank you, Alan, and indeed Jenny Gresham, for endorsing Woman's Hour on this time last night. And if you didn't see it, of course, it's available on the BBC iPlayer. Now, news this morning that one of the frontrunners to replace Vince Cable as leader of the Liberal Democrats has admitted that she slapped her then partner at the Lib Dem conference back in 2013, and they were both arrested. Layla Moran has said, in the heat of the moment, I slapped him because I felt threatened.

Charges were later dropped, I should say. She's also referred to it as a personal moment and says they've both moved on. And she did announce this in public with the cooperation of her former partner. Alice Thompson is a Times journalist. Alice, good morning to you. Hi. So why has she felt the need to come forward about this? Well, I think there were rumours about it. And I also think that if you're going to stand for leadership, you have to get everything out, really. And you can't expect MPs to be squeaky clean.

We now know they really aren't squeaky clean, most of them. Her problem is that she has spoken before about bullying and about abuse without actually mentioning this. And I think she probably should have mentioned it right at the beginning, I would have, if I were her. It looks now as if she feels she had to get it out, rather than that she feels embarrassed or sorry about what she did. Yes, I mean, this is simply the way politics works. This woman is now being talked about very seriously as a potential leader of a still reasonably influential British political party. And she couldn't afford to have this splashed all over the mail on Sunday the week before. I mean, what do you think? Well, I think, I mean, it has been in the papers today.

But I think her problem is that it is odd that she's spoken in the House before about bullying. And what she says about it when she says that she's come to the House to make a stance against bullying, she should have probably mentioned it then, I think. I think you have to be more honest and upfront. And I do feel it is a big issue because I think there really has to be zero tolerance against any kind of physical violence. We know, well, you can tell me, how you think this would have affected the career of a male politician. Well it would have been actually, that's the problem, it would have been

seen as even worse for a male politician, which is actually wrong because I think they should be equated in the same way. And we've got the smacking laws of children going through at the moment and I think that should be, we don't want laws, but there should be an assumption that you really never ever hit anyone, child or adult. And that something's gone seriously wrong if you do, because it is a lack of control, unless you're both consenting adults and that's what you enjoy doing.

Well, that's it. Yeah, that's a different conversation, of course. But I think we know that I don't think it would have threatened a man's career in the same way. I think it would have finished it stone dead, wouldn't it? Well, I think it would have been very hard to run for leadership if you'd done it. And there would have been a lot more questions asked. And I think also when she says she was doing it in self-defence, that's a very difficult... Well, she says, I felt threatened. Yes, I think that's a difficult issue because no one's ever going to know what went on there.

And I think a man would find that harder to say, actually. Yes, which means that this isn't an entirely level playing field, is it? Yes. So I think it is very hard. And I think you've seen with Tim Farron, who is a former leader of the Dems, it's very hard when you've said one or two things or there's something in your past, if you are a leader, to get over it. And I think you have to be very, very careful with your leaders, what their background is and what their record is and they have to be very honest about it and I'm not sure she's been apologetic enough, to be honest, for me.

Well, she has issued a full statement, she says it's all in the past and describes it as a personal matter. I don't know, a personal matter? Well, she's made it public but then, as you've indicated, it was about to be made public anyway. Yeah. So she had no option. Well, I think it would have come out, I have to say.

And this is a very difficult thing. I think there are issues that are personal, but I also think if you talk about issues and you've been involved in that issue in some way, it is very hypocritical not to mention the fact. Well, of course, she can't be accused of hypocrisy anymore because she has mentioned it. We're sitting here talking about it now.

Yes, but she didn't mention it in the Commons last summer. Right, OK. We should say we obviously tried to get hold of her this morning and she wasn't able to join us today. Do you think it's actually, her honesty put aside for a moment, it has actually put an end to her ambitions or do you think it won't stand in her way? No, I don't think it should put an end to her ambitions,

but I do think it should be talked about and discussed. So I think we'll see in the next, in a way, how people feel about it and how she addresses it and what she says and what the other candidates are like. That's the issue as well. And really, whether she's going to talk about it honestly and openly and talk about why she did it.

And I still don't, I don't really feel she's been quite honest enough about what happened. We don't know what happened. No one will ever really know what happened. But it's a very serious issue. And as you say, it's career finishing for a man. Thank you very much indeed. That's Alice Thompson. She is a Times journalist. She was talking there about a woman who had been widely tipped

to be the next leader of the Liberal Democrats, Leila Moran. Any thoughts on that? Of course, you can contact the programme at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. We're also on Instagram. And you can email the programme whenever you like, of course, via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Now, Judy Kuhn is here. Welcome to the programme, Judy. A Broadway star. Well, it's great to see you.

Broadway star and a Disney star, which we will also talk about because I know Disney people will be very cross indeed if we don't draw attention to your role as Pocahontas, which you probably are sick to death of discussing. But anyway, you are playing Golda in A a revival of Fiddler on the Roof, which opens to the public when exactly? Well, we've done a few previews and we have our press opening at the Playhouse Theatre tomorrow night. Now, I saw Fiddler on the Roof, I've seen this production, I should say, in its previous incarnation at the much smaller Chocolate Factory.

And I have seen it with Topol back I think back in the 80s and I thought Topol was the only person who could play the central character who is Tevye Tevye yeah

but in fact it's Andy Nyman in this production yes and Andy is spectacular as Tevye I have to say he is rather good I mean he's also

a neighbour of mine so I hope he's got a tiny I'm sure he's got a very tiny ego he's a lovely bloke as far as I can make out he's got a tiny I'm sure he's got a very tiny ego. He's a lovely bloke as far as I can make out. He's fantastic. I have loved working with Andy. Oh, well, that's good.

That's good to hear. Let's hear you both actually in action. Here you are, trying to communicate with each other in this production of Fiddler on the Roof. Tavia, I have something to say to you. Why should today be different? Tavia? I have to tell you. I'm praying laser wolf wants to see you

the butcher about what I don't know only he says it is important what can be important I've got nothing for him to slaughter after the sabbath see him and talk to him talk about what

if he's thinking about buying my new milk cow he can forget it Tevye don't be an ox a man sends an important message at least you can

talk to him talk about what he wants my new cow talk to him alright after the Sabbath I'll talk to him marriage is not always easy and your marriage Right, after the Sabbath, I'll talk to him.

Marriage is not always easy. And your marriage is not easy either in this production. So why move from a small theatre? Because it was a small theatre. I don't know if people outside London wouldn't know what we're talking about. But the Menier Chocolate Factory is a small... I think we had about 120 seats somewhere in that neighbourhood. Intimate space, now in the West End,

completely different challenge, presumably. Well, yes, but I think they've done a remarkable job of transforming the Playhouse Theatre to maintain the intimacy that we had at the Chocolate Factory. And, you know, I wasn't sure. You never know when something transfers from a small house to a larger house, how it will hold. And I am thrilled with how it has been going.

I mean, there's something, you know, there's always something you lose, but there's also things that you gain. And I think, you know, one of the things about we did it in three quarters thrust. A what? Well, you call it three quarter thrust stage which isn't full round but um okay yes um it's when the stage sort of is in the middle of the audience um you know when they're on three sides and so what that means is you always have somebody's back. Yeah.

And now that doesn't happen anymore. So the audience can always see both sides of any scene or all sides of any scene, which I think is also wonderful. And there's, I don't know, there's something really magical that's been happening at the Playhouse the last few days. Oh, well, I'm glad to hear it. I think it is brilliant, by the way, I should say. And also, this is an important musical to stage at the moment because anti-Semitism is, I mean, heartbreaking, but it appears to be back.

And here we have the most wonderful illustration and poignant illustration. Yes. Of real lives. It's not just about anti-Semitism. It's about, you know, when the dominant culture decides they're done with

this minority culture, and that's happening all over the world right now. And I think, you know, not to spoil anybody's experience of the show who plans to come, but I think the way Trevor Nunn has staged the end of the show, the image of the end of the show will be familiar to anyone who's been watching the news or reading the paper. I was going to say, I found that very poignant because it's essentially the cast trudging with all their belongings across the stage. And I imagine it'll be even more stirring and disturbing in a bigger theatre. Yes, yes. It's, you know, it's a show that's a little more than 50 years old now and it seems more relevant than ever. And, you know, you hope for that day when it seems antiquated. But sadly, that's not the case right now.

There are links actually with our very first conversation with Helen Clark this morning. He was talking about the benighted lives of some poverty-stricken families in Afghanistan and the young girls being married off. And actually, even in Fiddler on the Roof, it's a topic, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. You know, these people live on the edge in these shtetls. And they have a kind of, they maintain a balance, as Tevye says in the beginning of the show, that's where the people say, what is it?

Why is it called Fiddler on the Roof? It's really about that, trying to, as he says, scratch out their little tune without falling off the roof. And they really live on the edge. And that's what the conversation between you and Tevye is about. It's about whether or not your eldest daughter can marry the butcher, who is a much, much older man. Right. Right. I mean, I think Golda probably gets a bad rep for, you know, wanting to push her daughters into these marriages that were maybe not to their liking because of, you know, because the potential husbands would be well off.

But it's really, really about survival. You know, with every parent, every parent wants their child to have a better life than the one they've had. And in this time and in this culture, the only way for these girls to have that better life is to marry well. That song that you sing with Tevye, Do You Love Me, which is just remind people of the lyric because it's a fantastic song. Well, Tevye, after these daughters come to him and say, I don't want to marry that man. I want to marry this one because I love him. And Tevye says, love, it's the new style. Because as he says, you know, in Do You Love Me, he says to Golda,

the first time I met you was on our wedding day. And that was typical, you know, marriages were arranged and the couple didn't meet each other until their wedding day. And so this, what he's going through with his daughter suddenly makes him think about love and what that means. And he says to Golda, do you love me? And her answer is, do I what? The idea of love, there's no language for that as far as she's concerned and as far as the world she was raised in is concerned. The idea of marriage for love is not something that's ever been considered. to Pocahontas if you don't mind. There you were. A Broadway star and then a Disney star. Excuse me, making me cough with excitement. Your big song in Pocahontas is, which one is it? Remind me. Well, I guess people would say Colours of the Wind. Right. And you have

presumably a great big orchestra behind you. Yes. Swelling orchestra. I mean, how good is that actually? It was an extraordinary experience recording those songs. I mean, you good is that actually? It was an extraordinary experience recording those songs. I mean, you know, it was a 90 piece orchestra or something in that, something like that on a big Hollywood soundstage. And you never get that. I mean, even if you're doing a Broadway show with a full orchestra, it's less than half that size. and it's an extraordinary sound.

And to sing with that was really quite an experience. And I think, well, little girls and I'm sure much bigger girls and some boys absolutely love Pocahontas. Oh, yes. Well, you know, now that I'm older and I'm working with young women who are the age of my daughter, who's 24, you know, they grew up with that generation of Disney movies, and I see in them how excited they are that I'm Pocahontas. Well, I mean, as you can tell, I'm excited. But it must be amazing, because I understand that you got a message from Trevor Nunn, didn't you, just saying,

would you fancy being in Fiddler on the Roof? Yes. When you were in a sort of relatively fallow period. Yes. I mean, how good a of relatively fallow period. Yes. I mean, how good a feeling is that? It was great. Well, it came right at the right moment when I was just thinking,

wow, I don't know what I'm doing next for the first time in a while. What should I do about that? And his email landed in my inbox. And here you are. And actually you're stuck in London. I know you don't see it that way, but perhaps a rather longer than you might have anticipated

Well as I said I came for five months And I'm staying for eight And I'm quite happy to be here Well it's a fantastic production I really do urge people to see it I'm not the world's most theatrical of buffs Or whatever the expression is But this was amazing

It is a very special production It's absolutely great Thank you so much Judy Thank you for having me Judy Kuhn on Woman's Hour. And what did I describe myself as? Not the most theatrical of buffs. Sometimes even I don't understand what I'm talking about.

But it's true. I'm not a massive theatre person. But trust me, you will enjoy Fiddler on the Roof. And we had an email about, let me just mention this. This is important. Just listening to the interview about the relevance of Fiddler right now, I've just got back from Manchester where this weekend I saw a play called, or a musical called Rags at Hope Mill Theatre,

a similar venue to the Menier where Fiddler began. It's like a sequel to Fiddler on the Roof and was also the creation of Joseph Steen or Stein in conjunction with Stephen Schwartz, who was heavily involved in that new production in Manchester it stars the Olivier award-winning Rebecca Traherne and it's glorious please give it a mention says Rachel okay Rachel well we've done that now and there was another email about this this is David when we saw the production of Fiddler on

the Roof at Chichester a couple of years ago, I was surprised that so many of the audience didn't have any idea about this history. The similarity with the films of Syrian refugees and Indian partition were very, very striking, was very striking, says our listener David. And you're quite right. It's a story that we need to keep telling because it's still some people's reality. There's absolutely no doubt about that. And Margaret was very moved by the conversation involving Helen Clark, the former prime minister of New Zealand. Jane, this was a truly inspirational woman.

I was shocked into silence as well as tears. What a world we sometimes live in. Well done for airing this interview on Woman's Hour. Well, Margaret, thank you for listening. Hallie Rubenhold is with us to discuss a little bit more actually about her book about the women killed by the serial killer Jack the Ripper. And actually, I hate you because this Jack the Ripper business is a pain in the backside, isn't it? Yeah. How do we stop using that expression? Do you think we should stop using it? I think that's a tough one because we have to know what we're talking about. We don't have any other name for the malefactor known as Jack the Ripper. So we stick with it?

Unfortunately, I think. Yeah, but it's got that kind of almost affectionate. I can't bear it. Well, that's what we've done to Jack the Ripper. I mean, that is our fault. That is the problem with merchandising. That's the problem with things like the London Dungeon. Quite a big Jack the Ripper. This idea that somehow because it happened a long time ago, it's innocuous. You know, we can laugh at it. We can, you know,

pretend that Jack the Ripper was a sort of mythical being like Dracula. But he was only too real and actually not that long ago. Exactly. And, you know, Jack the Ripper was a real person and the women he killed

were real people who had real families and who have descendants alive today. Did you speak to any of them? Yes, I did, actually. And that was, I have to say, incredibly interesting. Somebody got in touch with me shortly afterwards who was a descendant of Annie Chapman. He was actually her great grand nephew, I think. And it was quite remarkable.

And he knew about the connection. Yes, he did he did but he he hadn't come across the stuff that I had actually unearthed in the book and when I met him he had her eyes which is amazing because one of the only photographs that we have in life of any of these women is of Annie Chapman and it's a wedding photograph and she and Neil have the same eyes. Gosh, that really does make you think. I want really to broaden out how you find out stuff about people like this whose lives on the whole, apart from the wretched way in which they died, are likely to be undocumented. Well, there are ways in which we can kind of drill down into the records. I think in the case of these women, what we were able to start with was a certain degree of newspaper reportage. So there are articles from them.

Can you trust them though? Well, with certain things you can, but I think you need a historian's eye and you need to be very selective and very careful about what you alight on. And you cross-reference things with documents. So, for example, you know, we can pretty much find evidence about these women, about where they were born, who they married, where they lived. We look in censuses. We look at birth and marriage records and in some cases you know the workhouse records are incredibly colourful and rich and full of detail but where are they well they're in the archives and also a lot of them are online i'm not sure if i'm allowed to mention the names of of the companies that that support these records probably not but clearly if you're

prepared to delve hard enough. Yes, this information is there. It's there. It's there. And in fact, I mean, this is something I would encourage everybody to do. You know, everybody seems to, well, I mean, people have varying beliefs about genealogy. Some people just kind of poo-poo it. It's just kind of a subcategory of history. I think it is really interesting to look at your life and the lives

of the people who came before you. And it could even be, I mean, it might not even have to be your family. You can look at, I mean, as I have, I've looked at the lives of the people who lived in my house. I mean, that's fascinating. And each one of these lives is a micro history in itself. Yes, yes. It gives us a sense of of the times that people lived in isn't there still a shame though attached with even finding out that a distant relative had been in the workhouse that's probably not a fabulous thing to find out is it yeah i think we are kind of overcoming that these days i mean again you know

one of the things that always pops up is, and I found this, especially with the work with my earlier books, you know, a lot of my books have been about shame and women falling off the path of virtue, as they would call it, and sex work. And sex workers turn up a lot in people's family histories, or, you know, they try to hide it, or legitimacy turns up, and you can trace that and you have an idea of what's been going on. You know, there's a lot of illegitimacy in birth records. And there's a lot of it in people's history, because that is our history. Our history is not straightforward. It is not clean. It is not something that people in the past would have been proud of necessarily. Thank you very much, Hallie. Really interesting to talk to you. That's the

historian and writer Hallie Rubenhold. And Jenny is here tomorrow with Woman's Hour. And another woman from history that you probably should know about, you should know about, Virginia Hall, who was a secret agent, just the one leg, phenomenally brave. She'll be discussed on Women's Hour tomorrow. You know the way late at night, in bed, in the dark, your tired mind can wander and strange thoughts float like balloons escaping into the sky? Well, Bunk Bed is a podcast where Peter Curran and Patrick Marber find the nearest faraway place from the hurly-burly of daily life, where tired minds can wander.

Why don't you come along and eavesdrop and see if you like it. You can subscribe to Bunkbed on BBC Sounds. On BBC Signs. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.