Woman's Hour - Child mental health services, Amanda Wakeley, murder of Annabel Rook

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Before the potential Prime Minister has even taken up office, a draft letter has been written for Andy Burnham asking him to appoint as many women as men in his government. It's from the Women's Parliamentary Labour Party and asks for change to address the toxicity and misogyny within the Labour party and government. Political correspondent Nick Eardley discusses the letter and its context with Chloe Tilley. What happens when you're worried about your child's mental health, but help is months or even years away? A new report by the Children's Commissioner for England paints a stark picture of growing demand and long waits. Referrals have almost doubled since 2018, with more than a million children now in contact with services. Professor Jessica Deighton from the Anna Freud Centre discusses what it means for children and families. And Emma Kluibenschadl tells us how her 15 year old son took his life after being refused help for his mental health problems.Amanda Wakeley OBE is a self-taught fashion designer. Her designs are much loved by the Royal Family and she’s known for her timeless British womenswear. She joins Chloe today to discuss her new book, Style DNA, in which she encourages women to spend time reflecting on their autobiographical relationship with their clothes. In understanding how our lives shape how we dress, Amanda hopes to give women the tools to work out who they are so their style sits in harmony with their sense of self, and how they’d like to position themselves in the world.Annabel Rook dedicated her life to supporting vulnerable women, yet her own life was violently taken by her partner. In June last year, at their home, Clifton George attacked her, attempting to strangle her before stabbing her 31 times after she had tried to end their relationship of more than ten years. He then caused an explosion at the property. Annabel co-founded MamaSuze, a creative grassroots arts organisation in North London to enhance the lives of women who have survived violence. Her co-founder, Catherine Milne, wrote a moving article about the death of her best friend, how she tried to support her, and the question of whether she could have done more. Her and Annabel's sister Sophie discuss Annabel's impact and what people can learn from their loss.Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Melanie Abbott

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It's O'DO.O.com. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber Mr. Beast made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera.

And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire.

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Chloe Tilly and you're listening to The Woman's Our podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, if Labour wants to be seen as the party of equality, it must lead by example and commit to a 50-50 gender split in government. That's the warning to the widely tipped next Prime Minister Andy Burnham from female Labour MPs. Will he listen and which women could be brought in? We'll discuss. Figures show a million children are accessing child mental health services in England.

Referrals have almost doubled since 2018 and the service is buckling under the pressure. We're going to break down the numbers and examine the reality for young people and their families. We'll be joined by Emma Clubenshadel, whose 15-year-old son took his own life after not getting support. Also, fashion designer to royalty and politicians, Amanda Wendell. Weekly joins us to discuss her new book, Style DNA. She's going to explain the difference between fashion and style. She believes clothes can make you powerful, you can feel confident. So what is your go-to outfit that makes you feel that way? What clothes do you wear to make you feel powerful? What's your armour? You can text us now, 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour,

or of course you can send a WhatsApp [phone]. Plus, the A sister and best friend of Annabelle Rook will be here. Now you may recognise her name. She worked with vulnerable women through an arts organisation in North London. But last year was murdered in her own home by her partner. He's since been jailed. They're going to talk to us about their loss, their unanswered questions and their work to address gender-based violence. But let's begin by talking about the challenges, Frandy Burnham, the potential Prime Minister, even before he's taken up office. A draft letter has been written for him, asking for him to appoint as many women as men in his government.

It's from the Women's Parliamentary Labour Party and it says, to quote it, we are asking you to demonstrate this change from day one and address the toxicity and the misogyny within our own party and government. Want to get more details. Let's speak to the BBC's political correspondent Nick Erdley. Morning, Nick.

Morning. So you've seen this draft letter. Take us through what it says. The main argument that the women's PLP, which is basically all the female MPs and members of the House the Lords who represent the Labour Party is that for some time there's been a problem with misogyny, with women being excluded from important decisions in government, and that Andy Burnham

has to make it a key priority. Now, there are a lot of people in the Labour Party, a lot of women in the Labour Party, who are encouraged by Mr Burnham's campaign team, the people who helped to win that makerfield by-election, the people who've been helping him prepare for government. but as you say there are some specific asks that they have written down in this letter to go to Mr. Burnham which include things like zero tolerance for misogynistic briefings they want a female deputy prime minister something they ask Keir Starmer for by the way but but didn't get and as you say gender parity when it comes to things like the makeup of all government ministers and interestingly number 10 staff There have been a lot of senior female government ministers for some time,

but there's also been some concern under Kier-Starmer, certainly in his early period, that a lot of his top team were men, and that that allowed some of that misogyny to continue. Talk to us, if you would, about the women who were around Andy Burnham. For example, the former Transport Secretary Louise Haig, is she likely to be offered a job back in government because she was a key part of his campaign at Makerfield, wasn't she? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty safe bet that Lou Hague will get a pretty senior job under Mr Burnham.

Perhaps something to do with his number 10 north, which we've heard a lot about in the last few days. There are quite a long list of women that have been very close to Mr Burnham over the past few months in his campaign team. People like Annalise Midgley, people like Miata Fambula. We also know that he's very close to the deputy leader of the Labour Party. Lucy Powell, he's been close to the Manchester MP. Angela Rainer over the past few months as well. So I do think there are some very senior women in Mr Burnham's team that are likely to get senior jobs,

assuming he becomes Prime Minister later this month. But there's also a question about exactly what those jobs will be because at the moment, three of the four great offices of state are occupied by women. The Chancellor is a woman, Rachel Reeves, the Home Secretary, is a woman, the Foreign Secretary is a woman as well. actually at the moment both of Kirstarmer's chiefs of staff are women as well. So can Mr Burnham find similar sorts of seniority for the women around him?

I think will be one of the big questions over the next few weeks. But of course the rumours are that Rachel Reeves won't be Chancellor if Andy Burnham becomes Prime Minister. There's also talk about David Miliband coming back, possibly in the Lords, to be Foreign Secretary. So that would be two women already that would be out of the cabinet. Yeah, I mean, I think it's almost certain now that Rachel Reeves won't be Chancellor. Remember, she was the first female Chancellor when she was appointed by Kirsteim a couple of years ago. I mean, there has been a kind of slightly dark joke doing the rounds over the last few weeks that you can't have more Milibands in the great offices estate than you can women,

because you may well end up with Ed Miliband as Chancellor and his brother, David, as Foreign Secretary. All rumours at the moment, none of it confirmed. But there will be some pressure, I think, to look at those top jobs. So we know that Andy Burnham's chief of staff is going to be James Pernel, someone who he worked quite closely with in the past, but there will be those questions about those key areas, the big decision-making jobs in government,

where the argument the women's PLP have made is if you don't have women in some of those jobs and certainly part of the conversation when it comes to big economic decisions, when it comes to big legal decisions, any decisions you can think of, then naturally, women's interests won't be as front and centre when those final decisions are being made.

And we have to remember, of course, there's this big shadow that hangs over the Labour Party, that it's never even had a female leader. You look at the Conservative Party, you know, it's had female Prime Ministers, Cammy Badenock obviously leading the party now. Andy Burnham coming in, clearly a man. You know, he's got to get that, the optics have got to be right, haven't they? They do. I mean, I think it is interesting if you look at the makeup of the Labour Party in Parliament.

the record's actually quite impressive. 46% of Labour's MPs are women. That is the highest percentage ever. Kirstarmer's first cabinet was the closest to gender parity we've ever seen. It was almost 50-50. It's gone down slightly since the reshuffles that he's overseen as Prime Minister. So there has been some progress in the Labour Party, but you're right.

They have this kind of this, this, this, record that nobody's particularly proud of that they've never elected a female leader. I think if you'd asked two years ago most people in the Labour Party if the next leader had to be a woman, most of them would have said yes. I know that was a position that Keir Starmar had expressed publicly. It hasn't ended up that way. There are some extremely talented women in the Labour Party who thought about a tilt at the leadership didn't go for it this time, largely, I think, because they're in so much trouble as a party and they think they just need to unite behind someone and Andy Burnham's success in Makerfield has persuaded them that he is the person to do it.

But yes, I think the Labour Party has struggled with that question of why it's never elected a female leader. And it's one I think will continue assuming Mr Burnham's leader in a few weeks time. Nick, good to speak to you. Thank you so much. That's the BBC's political correspondent Nick Hurdley speaking to us from Millbank. Now, children's mental health services are struggling to keep pace with demand. a new report from the Children's Commissioner in England shows referrals have almost doubled since 2018

with more than a million children now in contact with services. The biggest increases are among children referred for suspected autism and neurodevelopmental conditions, while thousands are facing weights of months, even years for help. So what lies behind these figures and indeed what needs to change? Let's speak to Professor Jessica Dayton from the Anna Freud Centre, which is a mental health charity supporting children and families.

Morning to you. Morning. Thanks for coming in. Those figures are pretty stark. It is a huge increase just since 2018. We know 60,000 children waiting for more than two years for treatment. How close is the system right now to breaking point? I think we're certainly seeing a system that's really struggling to keep up with the pace of the level of need that we see out there.

We've seen an increasing rates of what we would call psychological distress in children and young people. that's been increasing since well before COVID. We've seen these trends tracking back 20 years or so. And now we have a system that's trying to manage that need. But a lot of that support has been trying to look at the critical end where young people have got to a stage where they really need specialist help. I think what we need is a system that tackles that high-end need, but also looks at how to prevent mental health problems from emerging in the first place.

People listen to this conversation may be thinking, why is there an increase in demand on these services? How much of this is that children's mental health is getting worse and how much of it is as a case that we're better at recognising the problems and indeed asking for help? I think both things are true at once. So we're definitely seeing improvements in mental health stigma. We see young people more happy to talk about their mental health.

Spaces like communities and schools, now much more see this as part of something that they discuss. That's really great. and probably some of what we're seeing about people seeking diagnosis, is that a better insight and a better understanding that there is help potentially out there and more understanding that these things can be a challenge. But we're definitely seeing real increases.

We had an interim report from the prevalence review of mental health, autism and ADHD recently, which was saying, yeah, what we're seeing is a real increasing trend in psychological distress. So we really have to pay attention to the data and say that this is a challenge that we need to pay attention to. do stay with us because I want to bring in Emma Kluben Shadel. Her son, Stefan, couldn't get access to mental health support

and went on to take his own life at just 15. Emma, thank you for being with us, and I'm sorry it's under these circumstances that we're having to talk. Just explain to us a little bit about why Stefan didn't get the support, was refuse the support he needed. What we're seeing is kind of a real lack of understanding around autism. ADHD, other neurodivergent conditions. So a lot of professionals when we approached around support kind of

need anxiety and distress with being autistic. I quite few professionals say, well, he's bound to be anxious, he's autistic like it comes hand in hand. But it isn't part of a diagnosis, you know, on your diagnostic criteria. Anxiety and depression aren't on there. So I think it was that real kind of misunderstanding of presentation. for him and other autistic people.

Emma, are you saying that he needed different types of help, some to support his autism and some for things like his anxiety? Yeah, definitely. I mean, we know that, you know, Stefan, especially the anxiety came from, you know, a lot of things like unpredictability and executive functioning load and sensory overwhelm, things like that. So, you know, if that can be supported and dressed within the education. system, you know, things like that, that will bring anxiety down. But also the fact that a lot of

support given by, you know, organisations like CAMs are not conducive to an autistic person's brain difference. It's a lot of kind of talking-based therapy often offered. And, you know, when you're autistic, you have a communication and language difference. And therefore, sometimes you can't access that. And then when you can't access that, even if you can get through the door, you're often discharged because you are not engaging, not that the professional need to engage with the child in the way they need. So it sounds from what you're saying that this isn't just about a funding gap.

It's about actually understanding specifically what young people need. Oh, most definitely. You know, I know there's not so much money around. We know children are being referred, but often, you know, when you, if you even get through, do see a service, it's wholly inappropriate. You know, it may be lack of training or understanding, but also, you know, it's the type of therapy being offered. We know through research, research for the Anna Freud Centre, that autistic individuals, you know, are much more conducive to, you know,

kind of creative-based therapy, animal therapy, but that's often not available through our systems at the moment. So what would you like to see change now, practically, with the realistic money that is available, to help other young people who were in the situation that Stefan was in? It's quite a big thing. I know our mental health services need to change. I think let's look at spending.

the money better. Let's look at spending it on therapies and support that actually work instead of don't work. And then, you know, Stefan said to me when he got turned down by CAMS, wow, even the professionals can't fix me. I must be that broken. How is a young person supposed to experience that? And we know this is education. Our national curriculum is outdated. It doesn't suit most of our children, let alone our, you know, our children that are neurodivergent. So a lot of the trauma starts really early. Let's change the National curriculum education system. And we might have less referrals for mental health, but also let's train professionals

on understanding, you know, our children are have a brain difference, you know, they're neurodivergent, they're not neurotypical. so let's stop trying to use neurotypical systems and processes and therapies that don't work and cause our children to feel like they are not enough and they are too broken for the system instead of the system being too broken for our children. Do you think there's a political will to do what you've just said? Let's face it, something has to change. We have more children now, not in education.

we ever have more children being homeschooled, more children, you know, with school-induced emotional burden. You know, we, you know, schools are under huge pressure to get children in around attendance and parents are fined. But what if your child's mental health is damaged by being in school? And, you know, what if that's the wrong system for them? and the government equate being in school and attendance to good outcomes. What if being in school actually increases your mental health issues,

which we have to deal with later down the line? So we've got to change it. It's not a matter of, should we, we have to. I know that you've set up a website in Stefan's name and you're offering support to people. Tell us a little bit about that. So yeah, we kind of were on lots of steering groups in our area. We kind of got fed up with being on all these groups, hearing lots of, you know, we'll make change.

Yes, what can we do? Nothing happening. So my husband and I set up an organisation called Stack Life, so STAK for Stefan's Acts of Kindness. We do a lot of support in our community around mental health, suicide awareness, and we are setting up a counselling service this year in our area for autistic teenagers, but being able to access those therapies I spoke about, more creative-based therapies. We've trained 30 therapists on neurodivergence because we're both in that area. And, you know, I deliver on the Autism Central program. And also we're fundraising, so we're funding this.

community are funding this. We're asking corporate businesses to come in and help us save our children's lives because we cannot rely on the systems. My son has died. I don't want other parents to experience this horrific pain and other young people to feel they're not good enough to be in this world. Emma, thank you ever so much for talking to us today. I can see how emotional you are. It must be incredibly difficult, but it's really important and I'm sure you're helping lots of people. So thank you so much for coming on and talking to us this morning. Professor Jessica Dayton still with us. Do you want to pick up on some of the points there that Emma made, particularly talking about trying to make children who are not neurotypical fit into a neurotypical world?

I just wonder how easy it is to change society in that way. Yeah, absolutely. And there will be much more focus politically and for schools on inclusion, won't they're going forward? So it's going to be really important that we get that right for exactly the reasons that Emma describes. I think two of the things that are really important about what Emma said was the importance of listening to the evidence to know what works for which young people

so that we can meet needs as effectively as possible. But also that we are listening to the voice of young people and families about the help that they need, what it should look like. and we should be working with them to shape that supports. And Autism Central that Emma mentioned is a really good example of that. That's a peer support program where autistic people are helping to support families and supporters of people with autism and give them those support networks

that they need to navigate some of these really difficult spaces. We also need more support to schools and community spaces in building their capacity to meet the needs of young people, to see those young people as a whole person, not as one particular diagnosis or problem, so that they can more effectively put that help in early and hopefully prevent those problems from escalating. One of the most striking findings of this report

is more than a third of children are still waiting for treatment at the end of the year. I mean, we've just heard from Emma the effect it's had on her family. In practice, how detrimental is this for the families, for the young people, for their development, as well, of course, as their wellbeing? Yeah, I mean, just to, to acknowledge it can be incredibly distressing for families and for young people to be sitting with an unknown time period stretching out ahead of them when they don't know when helps

coming. And in that time, their lives are playing out. So they are struggling to make connections with their friends. They're struggling to engage with school and to be able to achieve well. So, you know, they feel like their life opportunities are sometimes slipping by. So it's really important that we don't make families wait all that time and we don't make help. contingent on diagnosis. We should be thinking about how to put help in place earlier in the system and thinking about how we can use expertise and trusted adults within the environment around young people to better support them while they're waiting for that help. For girls, anxiety is the number one reason for referral. Is that clear why? I mean, some people may question

whether it's to do with social media use or even going back to the pandemic and being off school and isolation. Do we have an idea on that? I think. there's a mixture of things playing into that space. We know from research that boys are more socialised into showing psychological distress as behaviour. Girls are more socialised to show it as something that's more internalised, like what we would call emotional difficulties, which would be anxiety and depressive symptoms. But I think we are seeing increased pressures on girls. There are things that we'll be well aware of from the media, things to do with rises in misogyny, for example, also how social media makes young people, particularly girls,

feel about themselves and their body image. But also many of the challenges that young people describe to us, like academic pressures, for example, can be felt differently by boys versus girls. So girls are socialised to be polite, to do what's asked of them. And even when that ask feels quite unreasonable, they will try and meet that bar, but there could be an emotional cost for that.

And I think we're seeing a perfect storm of some of those things playing out for girls at the moment. We have heard conversations as well from some people suggesting that maybe there is a overdiagnosis. What do you make of that? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm concerned about the way that we talk about that kind of language because it can be quite distressing for parents who, you know, who as we've heard from memory, it can be a real battle to advocate for your child to get the help that they need. And I think parents do feel bad because they see a system that's struggling to meet need

and they don't want to be adding to pressures, but they're really worried about their child and they want to be able to get that help. And I think there is an issue with help being contingent on diagnosis, which potentially does drive people towards that gateway. So if we can open out the options for help, we might relieve some of those pressures. But we have to remember that, you know,

it is to some degree tracking the escalation in need that we're seeing out there this increase in diagnosis. The report also finds. that black and Asian children are much more likely to be referred whilst in crisis than white children. Also children from the poorest areas are more likely to need treatment. Do we know why either of those things are the case? Yeah, so research that we've carried out Anna Freud previously would sort of back up both of those findings. So we carried out research some time ago where we looked at different referral routes for young people into mental health services.

And we did find that young people from minorised ethnic backgrounds were more likely. to be referred into mental health services from what we would call routes that give young people and families less agency so through social care, through youth justice, possibly through schools, rather than through GPs, which is quite often families advocating for their young people.

So that is a pattern we see. I think it's really concerning that we don't seem to be good at picking up a signal, particularly for black young people, before they get to a point of crisis. So we need to be much better identifying those problems earlier. So they're not reaching that crisis point by time they're looking for support.

And in terms of the inequality in terms of poverty, that's a well-known driver of mental health problems. So we do see that social patterning. And that's probably down to a whole range of factors that young people who experience poverty will also experience alongside that. We'll have families who are in less safe neighbourhoods who experience changes in their home conditions.

families will be under stress trying to make ends meet and all of those things can make mental health very challenging. Professor Jessica Dayton, thank you for being with us from the Anna Freud Centre, a mental health charity which supports children and families. We also spoke to Emma Clueben Shadel, her son, Stefan, took his own life after not getting access to mental health support. We did try to get a response from her local NHS trust,

but we haven't heard anything back. And of course, if you've been affected by any of the issues, there are links to support on the BBC Action. line website. Let me read you this from the Department of Health and Social Security. They've given us a statement saying we're developing a cross-government mental health strategy for England that will transform mental health care into a system that responds and intervenes earlier, reduces waiting times and helps people participate in education, work, family and community life. We're investing a record 16.1 billion pounds in NHS mental health services this year

and rolling out support teams across all schools and colleges in England to ensure more children get the support they need. And our send reforms will train every teacher to better support, S-N-D, and give mainstream settings the expertise and the resources to meet children's needs earlier and more effectively. I've had this message coming in saying, totally relate to your speaker. I was told my daughter wasn't engaging on anxiety for teenagers' course because her anxiety was so high, she couldn't get out of the car. It's ridiculous. Cam's often misses the mark and the two-year waiting list is shocking. Your experiences, of course, very welcome to share with us this morning. Can text us 8-4-8-44. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

On good, bad billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber Mr Beast made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. and even recreated squid games all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire.

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, if you are free on Friday afternoon and you can get to Sheffield, there are still just a few tickets left to watch our recording of an episode of the Woman's Hour Guide to Life at the Crossed Wires podcast festival. We're going to be at the Montgomery venue on Friday at 2pm. Tickets are free. All you have to do is visit crossedwires.com live forward slash fringe to reserve your spot. So don't hang around.

Make sure you do that. Now, she is a self-taught fashion designer known for dressing Princess Diana and for her timeless British women's wear. Amanda Wakely is with us today to discuss how women can, can become permanently stylish, not just fashionable for a while. She believes women need to spend time reflecting on their autobiographical relationship with their clothes and how they'd like to position themselves in the world. The secrets of how to do all of this are in her new book, Style DNA.

And I'm delighted to say Amanda Wakely is here with us now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. I love being here on Woman's Hour. It's my favourite, favourite BBC programme. Well, that's wonderful to hear, and it's so good to have you here. Now, let's start with the very basics here. You say we're talking style, not fashion. Just explain the difference for us.

There's a huge difference. Fashion is what we're delivered four times a year by designers. It's about trends and fashion. Style is who we innately are. And how do we find our style? Well, in my book, I take you on a style DNA finding journey. And basically, it involves, reflecting on what we instinctively reached for as children.

And that informs so many of our decisions. Before we've sort of learnt too much, it's instinctively what we're reaching for. So I take you on this journey to work out your three words to define your individual style. And once you've worked those out, actually it helps you hugely in informing your choices is what you put on, how you put it together, and what you buy, in fact. So what are your three words? My three words are clean, glam and sportif. Ooh, very nice.

Okay, and is it hard to find that? Because some people can be really quite intimidated by fashion, can't they? And by style and just think, oh, I'm just going to throw that on. And we're told we need colours and there are certain rules and we're certain body types. And it can be overwhelming. It can be so overwhelming. And, you know, I spent 30 years dressing women when I had my fashion brand. So I've seen the overwhelm firsthand.

And it was really that that made me want to create my brand to make women feel the best version of themselves. And this book really is an extension of that, taking women or men on that style journey so they know who instinctively and authentically who they are. Authenticity is a really important word, isn't it? Really, really important. And if you're true to yourself, then you'll shine. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about, you describe yourself as a mood dresser. And I love this in the book. You talk about clothes being used as a uniform, as a cocoon, and a type of armour. Tell us about the armour. Now, I feel that clothes are what stand between our naked selves and the rest of the world. And sometimes we want to cocoon ourselves, maybe in something soft and cosy at the end of a long day. But more importantly, I think that when we're going into a tricky situation, you know, an uncertain situation. If we're wearing something that empowers us, we are going to, we're going to be our best selves.

It's interesting. And we asked our listeners about the things that made them feel powerful this morning. I was a chartered building surveyor and spent a lot of time on building sites and up scaffolding, says this message. I had to get builders to realize I meant it when I was giving them instructions. So the clothes that made me feel powerful were practical trousers, a hard hat, steel toe cap boots and a high vis vest. Perfect. It's about the moment, isn't it?

It's about the situation. And Annie says, I feel most powerful in great jeans, a black tuxedo, white t-shirt, heels and a red lip. She's my type of girl. I like that. So talk to us about as well.

I know that you mentioned in the book about the kind of the different roles that clothes have because we can use them to feel part of a tribe. We can use them to stand out. for example, like a bride would do? I mean, we really message through our clothes. They say that you are judged on your appearance within a second.

So we scan each other within the first second and we have processed what we think that person is. It's all instinctive. It's not consciously. It's all subconsciously. And so I've lost my train of thought now. I'm so sorry. That's all right.

We were just talking about whether you use clothes to be part of a tribe or whether you use it to stand out and you were talking about, we judge people instantly as we see them. Yes, and also just coming back to the bride's message. Yes. You know, that is someone who's going to be centre of attention

on her big day and she wants to message exactly who she is on that day through that dress. Should you ever wear white to a wedding if you're not the bride? Oh, good question. I think, I tend to avoid it. I think, you know, it's the time for the bride to shine unless it's a white wedding.

And, you know, there are many of those. And in fact, I did have one of those myself. It was a location wedding and everyone turned up in white. And I absolutely loved it. Nice. So you also talk in your book about the nostalgia of childhood and how that influences people's, well, wardrobes now, did your childhood experiences influence your style and the way that you dressed today? Completely and utterly. I was lucky enough to have a big trunk of a dressing-up box that both my maternal and paternal grandmothers would sort of donate things to.

And I think it was that experience of trying on all of those glamorous things, you know, whether it was my granny's sort of bias cut, silk, slits. that she wore under her suits or her dresses or whatever and how they shrunk onto my little body. And then, you know, using those things to upcycle and to be creative. I'm interested in the term style DNA because it kind of, saying DNA, it sort of suggests a relationship with fashion that we're born with. And is it born within us? and we just have to find it?

Or can you develop it? Can you nurture it? You can develop it and nurture it, but I truly think it is deep inside us. And actually what dressing is all about is what works for us. I loathe rules in fashion. And I think us women particularly have been sort of slightly hoodwinked by the fashion industry to say,

you've got to be wearing banana yellow this season or you've got to be wearing a maxi skirt. Actually, if you're 5'2 and you don't like maxi skirts, that's rubbish. So find, you know, what I want to do through the book is take you on your style journey so that you can work out who you are authentically yourself, what pleases you, and then you'll shine. A rule's helpful when it comes to things like body shape. I loathe rules on body shape. I mean, how horrible to call yourself a pear or an apple.

That feels so dated. You know, let's love ourselves as we are here and now. And yes, let's look at our strengths, look at our weaknesses, quietly on our own. And I say parts of the book are like a little journal, and it is solely for you. You make your notes in there. It's private.

It's like your own private diary. No one's going to judge you on it. It's just about finding out what you are. are most authentically. You know, your strengths, your weaknesses, what are you dressing towards, what are you dressing around, without giving yourself ugly labels

and unkind labels. It's about let's be kind to ourselves and make the most of ourselves. Your book is full of quotes from some of the world's most fashionable people, including our very own Anita Rani. I was interested in the quote from Makita Oliver when she was talking about,

and I know most of these quotes come from your podcast, of course, who says she never used to wear colour, but then she realised she was subconsciously dressing the way her grandmother and sisters dressed in the Caribbean, like church clothes. So a lot of our decisions even go, not even into our own lives, but just our ancestry. Completely, completely. And I love that.

And that's why I picked on the DNA word, because it's so deep in us. And that's charming and beautiful. I'm interested as well. And you've, and you touch on this in the book, the sort of the difficult times you had. You mentioned about your business, you lost your business, and also you had a personal loss within your family as well.

In quick succession. How difficult was that at that point to kind of dust yourself off and move on? It was incredibly difficult. It hit me like a train, honestly. And I realized that I'd been working flat out in survival mode for 30 years. I was absolutely shattered. But I reached out and worked with the most brilliant grief specialist, an amazing woman called Julia Samuel,

and she's a therapist. And she sort of helped me unpeel this lemon, not lemon, onion even, the layers of just trauma and grief so that I could understand it. And, you know, as she pointed out to me, you know, there are multiple things going on here. You need to process it. So I felt very privileged to work with someone as brilliant as that. And she talked about actually being in what she called the fertile void, which is this space between two chapters and just having the time and allowing that to evolve.

And that was absolutely brilliant. And for me, being in nature was so healing and so important at that time. You worked with some incredible names, strong women throughout history. You know, you've starred the royal family, Prime Minister's world leaders, including the first female US Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright. And I love the story about her broaches and how it basically reflected her stance on diplomatic situations, endeavors. How much can fashion be about messaging? It is totally about messaging and it's really about saying who am I today and that you know whether that's at the school gates or whether it's

walking into a boardroom or whether it's representing the United Kingdom which our royal family do so beautifully and you know they don't have much of a voice but I mean I know Catherine the Princess of Wales doesn't like to be judged on her clothes, but she is the most phenomenal ambassador for British fashion. We couldn't want for a better ambassador. And I know that's not her official role, but as part of the royal family, that's something she does anyhow. I know that you describe yourself as a keen ski expeditioner. I know that in 2022, you went on ski expedition to Antarctica, which is just incredible. I know you love the adventures. Can fashion have a role in those expeditions or is it purely functional wear that protects you?

That it's functional wear. It's nothing to do with fashion. In fact, funny. So you're not tempted to design something that's both? I think it's quite a niche market. Yes. That's a fair point. And I don't really want to go there. And I think there's some people that, some brands that are doing it brilliantly. Yeah. I know that you've got an online series with your friend Joe Elvin, former glamour editor. I love the way that you're essentially saying that you're chalk and cheese when it comes to fashion, but it works. It works. I mean, our tastes, we've called it Friday night fashion and it goes out on YouTube every Friday night and our tastes are 180 degrees apart.

But I think what's fun is we're friends, we banter, we take the Mickey out of each other and I think it sort of gives women, particularly of our age, the permission to experiment with fashion or be inspired by us or at least have an opinion, which on YouTube they've got a lot of opinions as to what they think works on us or doesn't. Amanda, it's been a delight to speak to you. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much for having me. That's the fashion designer Amanda Wakely. her book Style DNA, explaining to us how we can be permanently stylish, not just fashionable. Thank you so much for being with us.

Now, listener week is coming up when we focus on your ideas. If you're a younger listener, what's going on for you at the moment? Contact us, whether it's about work, money, relationships, or just something that's been on your mind. Last year, we heard from young women starting out at work about navigating remote working. So what's affecting you now? You can text Woman's Air on 84844. On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, you can also email us through the website.

Now, Annabel Rook dedicated her life to supporting vulnerable women, yet her own life was violently taken by her partner. In June last year, at their home, Clifton George attacked her and stabbed her multiple times after she tried to end their relationship of more than 10 years. He then caused an explosion at their home. He was recently found guilty of murder and will serve a minimum of 23 years in prison. Well, Annabel co-founded Mama Suez, a creative grassroots arts organisation in North London that aims to enhance the lives of women who've survived trauma and violence.

Her co-founder, Catherine Milne, recently wrote an incredibly moving article about Annabelle's impact, the loss of her best friend, how she tried to support her, and whether she could have done more. She joins me now in the studio along with Annabelle's sister, Sophie Rook. Thank you both so much for being with us. I could feel just when I was reading at the introduction how difficult it is for both of you, clearly, to hear that. And I'm so sorry for your loss. Catherine, maybe you can start by telling us, I mean, you knew her since she was eight. You were both eight years old.

I mean, describe her to us. She was an exuberant, purposeful, dynamic person who was a natural communicator. She could have been a presenter, an actor, a director, but she decided to dedicate her life to supporting marginalised people. And, yeah, we're just incredibly proud of who she was and that her legacy and her incredible life isn't eclipsed by what happened to her. Sophie Annabel was your older sister. Was she a good older sister? She was the best, of course. She was two years older than me.

There were three of us. I'm in the middle and we have a little brother as well who's two years younger than me. And she was, you know, she was there my entire life. From the moment I was born, she was the person that I looked up to and followed. And she, in fact, I didn't speak for quite a long time when I was younger. It took me a while to start speaking because Annabelle would speak for me. And, you know, throughout my life. She still would speak for me, and it was the only, you know, the only person that I could trust, you know, that could do that and would do that in an authentic, loving, caring way.

Yeah. Catherine, how aware were you of the difficulties in Annabelle's relationship? We were aware, weren't we, Sophie? I don't think we ever really felt they were a great match. And in the last year, things had escalated. but I think what we weren't aware of is that violence is not only physical. I suppose for me I kept sort of wanting to know whether he had been physically violent towards her, which he hadn't actually, apart from one incident.

As far as what she told us over the years, and we did often both of us check in with her about sort of whether she actually felt safe and whether she ever thought that he would do anything violent, and she always said to us that no, and he would never do anything like that. and it was more that they had difficulties communicating and it felt very hard. And she also spoke a lot to the fact that he'd had quite a difficult upbringing himself. And she wanted to support him and help him to work through those difficulties so that they could have a better relationship and for them and their children.

They lived together. She owned the house. And as you mentioned there, she was the mother of two children. Yeah. But Catherine, she was trying to leave the relationship. She tried a few times over the years. And in the article you wrote, and I'll just read this quote back to you, I'm sure you remember it well, I must be very firm about not blaming myself. I know it's not my fault. And yet, of course, I could have done more. What do you mean? I think I feel now with the benefit of hindsight that I should have trusted my instincts more, rather than. rather than letting myself be placated by her, because I think she had a lot going on. She was worried about her children.

She was running the company. She was trying to mitigate a lot of the difficult things about living with Clifton. And I think that looking back, yes, I really wish that I had listened to my own instincts about their situation more and acted on them and spoken more to Sophie, to Annabelle's parents. but I allowed myself to believe that that she would be okay and that because she was such a powerful, dynamic person, that she had, that she had it, that she could hold it together and it's going to be all right. And I think what we've learned through this is that it doesn't matter

how incredible you are as a person, how powerful, how dynamic, how successful, how privileged, you're still vulnerable if you're a woman, unfortunately, in 2026. And that is a shocker, but it's true. Yeah, and I mean, there's a lot of sort of if only we'd known, if only we'd known. And then sometimes I sort of feel that even if we had known and we did know small things, but it was sort of like a patchwork that after the fact and obviously going through the trial, we got even more information that we hadn't known about.

And that, you know, it sort of makes you recognize and think about that people in this situation, which is predominantly women, are in a position where they sort of feed people different, if you're in a coercive, controlled relationship, then you're very careful about protecting yourself, your children, potentially if you have children, but also your partner. And I think that she didn't tell us certain stuff because she knew that we wouldn't have it, and we would probably do more and try and get her out of the relationship.

So did you both feel in some ways you were almost having to tread a fine line between... Absolutely. raising concerns, but not going in too strong that she may say, well, I'm not going to talk to you about it anymore. Yes, that's right. We both had experiences of that. I mean, there was a point in the relationship where I felt very angry, sort of angry with her, in fact, for not sort of moving out of the relationship and not finishing it, not understanding now how difficult that is, obviously, and how dangerous that is, actually, if you're at the point that you're going to leave and you're going to leave and you're, partner knows that you're going to leave it's the most dangerous time in a controlling relationship.

So I think maybe on some instincts, although I don't think she thought and predicted that anything like this would ever happen, I think she probably instinctively knew that it was dangerous and she couldn't move too quickly with anything. Yeah. It's very upsetting to think about all the moments now where, you know, I feel like I could have done more. But I know that Annabel wouldn't want us to spend the rest of our lives feeling terrible about it. I mean, none of us could have predicted this. Yeah, and more that what she would want us to do and what we want to do is, you know, affect positive change because of the way that she's been lost rather than kind of, you know,

just feeling, you know, just having to grieve the loss of her and the loss of this, you know, this huge part of ourselves. I can tell by the way you're talking to each other, you obviously do support. one another. How are you able to do that? How do you navigate that? I think mainly because of Annabelle and because of Annabelle, you know, throughout her whole life, she had this gift of just creating community and in her work and in her private life, her personal life with all of her relationship. She just saw people, she made people feel safe. She helped people feel as if they belonged. And she truly was,

she truly was there for everyone and she backed everyone. So I think, you know, and that's really key to what it's happened afterwards, that her sort of legacy, which is this creating these relationships and community is what's held us all together and is getting us through just the most horrific time. And I think that that's what we can do for her

is to continue this community. So all of her friends, all of her friendships, you know, I've known, you know, whole family know all of Annabelle's friends. They know us all well. So we're not just because of what's happened. It's always been that way. She brings everyone together. She was the glue. And I think that is so important and so important for all communities. And that's how we can help, you know, call people out and start to sort of prevent these things which in the first place might not seem like obvious. Well, I wanted to ask you about that because I know that you both

sat through the trial and he had previously pleaded guilty to manslaughter and arson, but denied murder, so that's why I went to trial. Was that when you really learnt the extent of the emotional abuse and the controlling behaviour at the trial? The sense of what Annabelle was living with on a day-to-day basis? Yeah, I mean, I think she did, because she was a very brave, courageous person, she did sugar-cote quite a lot of it, and she was such to cope her. that, you know, she would often tell us things that we were familiar stories, weren't they, from the trial?

But there was a slightly more, well, obviously in hindsight, but also hearing it in the kind of cold light of day. It was even more shocking. So things, what was he doing? If people are listening to this, maybe concerned about a relative or a friend, what were the things that he was doing to Annabelle? Now you look at it.

Silent treatment was a very important. real method of his. I think and also, and this is, you know, it sort of fits the profile, I think, for a lot of people that, you know, behave in this way and are controlling in their relationships. It's also the, quite a thin, skinned personality so that he, you know, hypersensitive to being, you know, disrespect or what he would, or criticised. And, um, um, and, um, and then. And, you know, all of us, I think in some ways trod on eggshells around him, you know, and were very careful about not to upset him. And we knew that if we upset him,

he would then take it out on Annabelle. So it was sort of like in some ways we all were part of this control. And we were all sort of letting things happen on normalising it because to keep the, you know, what we thought was just keeping the peace and keeping things, you know, sort of as not as... Yeah, you don't realise it.

You're enabling it by doing that. I think that's what we've learned. Catherine, you and Annabel co-founded Mama Suze, supporting vulnerable women through art workshops. Did she ever see herself as someone who could be at risk? Could she see the parallels between her work in supporting women and her own personal relationship? I think there was definitely a shared,

there's a sense of shared humanity in any women's organisation. And I think you definitely get that sense at Mama Sues, but she was very much the leader of our community. And I think, I don't know, I don't think she saw herself as a vulnerable woman. No, no, I don't. But I do also know that she, I mean, there's been this great equalizer thing

that's happened since losing her, that now we're all kind of, there's this parity in the group where we have now a deep understanding of each other and the trauma that, in fact, pretty much all of the women in the group have been through in some shape or form, whether it's through trafficking, FGM, domestic violence,

forced displacement. So, yeah, I mean, it has been this, obviously this really ironic thing that it's all been turned on its head, but it's also been incredibly a source of great comfort, I think, and you've been coming to the group as well, haven't you? Yeah, absolutely a couple of times. Yeah, it's an extraordinarily comforting and all in a response.

to be around other women who, from all over the world, who've all been through their own examples of trauma, but we all come together every week. I think also just to speak a little bit to the fact that, you know, was Annabal aware of, you know, what was going on in her own life. And I think she did see it and she did say it a couple of times that the irony wasn't lost on her, that she was in a psychologically abusive relationship.

but I do think in some ways she thought, felt that she was, she could do it on her own, she could manage it on her own, and she was working, she had a process, she was planning to leave, and it took several years as it often does, I think, in these situations. But she had a plan, she was trying to protect her children as much as possible, and I think that's why it took longer, and she wanted it to. And I think she also thought that she was, you know, You know, she's always been a leader, hasn't she?

She's the big sister. She's the direct community leader. She was, you know, she always, you know, she felt she was always in charge. She didn't ask for help maybe when she needed to. And I think that's another message to people out there that I'd like people to, you know, don't be afraid to ask for help and support. Yeah. It's a strength, not a weakness. I want to talk to you about the sentencing, if I may.

He was sentenced to a minimum of 23 years in prison. Now, under current law, most domestic murders have a 15. year sentencing starting point because they take place in a home with a weapon which is most likely at the scene. But murders that take place where a weapon is taken to the scene with intent, the starting point is 25 years. Now the government has announced, announced yesterday, it's going to close this 10 year gap. So domestic murders are dealt with like other murders regardless of where they happen. Obviously, it's not retrospective, but I'm assuming you would welcome that. Absolutely. We were so pleased to

hear this. I mean, it's a shame it wasn't a month ago, but it is incredible that these mothers have fought for this change in the law and they've succeeded and that David Lammy's on board with it. It's the message that, you know, domestic homicide is as serious, if not more so than any, any, you know, very violent crime or homicide. And, you know, it seems extraordinary that it's been that way for so long and it's taken that long for people to recognise that. Yeah. We don't have long left and it's been lovely speaking to you, but I want to just ask you what you would like people listening to this to take away from this and indeed remember about Annabelle.

I want people just to give the message to people to, you know, look after each other, take care of each other. Don't be afraid to sort of speak out. I think, you know, we've got to acknowledge sort of the little things that can lead up to much more violent, much more awful situations and not tolerate sort of little small microaggressions and feelings of entitlement and in relationships. Yeah, I agree with you, Sophie.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. And I think Annabelle's capacity for joy is what we will always remember and try and carry on with our community and with our friendships and with her children. And that's the most important thing. It's remembering who she was and how she lived and how incredible she was and not what happened to her. Yeah. And you've been able to do that today just by speaking to some women's in.

So I do really, really appreciate both of you coming in. Sophie and Catherine, do take care of yourselves. I can imagine it's an incredibly difficult thing to talk about, but I'm sure you've helped people who are listening to this. So thank you so much. And if you have been affected by any of the issues, there are links to support on the BBC Action website. Well, that's this from us for today. Thank you so much for your company. Kruper will be here tomorrow talking about female wealth and investing. Join us then. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Do join us again next time.

So, Alice Lockstone, I'm here for the history. Well, Ben Henderson, I like the formality. And that's perfect because we have a lot of history to share. Why did tea become such a British obsession? How did English turn into the language we speak today? And yes, why do women's clothes still not have pockets? Well, in our new podcast, Here for the History, we're investigating how stories from the past shape everyday life today. Basically, the things we've all noticed but never stopped to question. Listen on BBC Sounds.

Or watch on YouTube. Just search for Here for the History. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet.

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist re-shaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.