Woman's Hour - Child mental health, Siobhan Daniels & RV travels, Testosterone,

Episode Date: September 2, 2026

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the body that represents NHS paediatricians, has warned of a sharp rise in the number of children aged 6 to 17 turning up at A&E units in England in a state of mental health crisis. The RCPCH's Officer for Health Services, Dr Ronny Cheung, a consultant paediatrician based in London, joins Nuala McGovern to discuss the issue. He is joined by Kate Silverton, child therapist and parenting author.Siobhan Daniels joined Woman's Hour a couple of years ago as part of Listener Week to talk about her alternative lifestyle, getting rid of her possessions and living nomadically while travelling the country in a motorhome. Now she's back with a new book, Retire and Refire, which chronicles her 4,000-mile solo RV adventure from Canada to Alaska along the Alaska Highway.The number of babies born in Scotland last year was the lowest on record. Records began in 1855. Esther Roughsedge, Head of Demographic Statistics at National Records of Scotland, explains more.A menopause specialist has said that she is aware of women posing as men to buy testosterone from online pharmacies because of difficulties obtaining NHS prescriptions in Wales. Jenny Rees, BBC Wales Health Correspondent, joins Nuala to discuss the issue.This summer, Woman's Hour has been hearing from some of the academics who have been working with Radio 4 on their research. Professor Nandini Das, Professor of Early Modern Literature and Culture at the University of Oxford, highlights the artist Levina Teerlinc from her new book, This Little World: A New History of Tudor and Stuart England.Divorced. Beheaded. Died. Divorced. Beheaded. Survived. Words familiar to most of us, and perhaps what you learned at school. But what do we really know, in depth, about Henry VIII's wives? There's a campaign to ensure that children learn more about the queens than those six words. Tracy Borman, Chief Historian at Historic Royal Palaces, explains more about their project.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

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You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Hello, this is Newell O'Moghvern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning, good to have you with us. Well, there has been a sharp rise in children and young people, some as young as six, attending A&E units in England in a mental health crisis. This hour, we're going to hear from a pediatrician who calls the figures a wake-up call for the government. Also today, retirement rebel, Chauvin Daniels, is back with us. She's going to tell us about her Alaskan adventure, travelling solo through the snow and sleet in a motorhome.

That's coming up. We're also going to be in Scotland. They've recorded a record low for the number of babies born for the third consecutive year. We'll take a look at those figures. And also today, why are some women in Wales posing as men to procure testosterone. Well, maybe one of those stories resonates with you. If you would like to share your experience, you can text the

program, that number 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0-3700-100-1444. And another way to get in touch with us. On most smart speakers, you can say, Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment and it will come through to me here. But let me begin with the story you may have been hearing in the news bulletins

this morning. The Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health, that's the body that represents NHS paediatricians, has warned this morning of a sharp rise in the number of children from the age of six to the age of 17, turning up at A&E units in England in a state of a mental health crisis.

Well, let me bring in the RCPCH's Officer for Health Services, that's Doctor Ronny Chung, who is a consultant, paediatrician based in London. He's also joined by Kate Silverton, who's a child therapist and parenting author back with us. Good to have both of you this morning. Let me start with you, Dr. Ronnie.

What have you found? Great. Thanks very much for having us. So what we've seen when we've looked at the data from 2019, so that's pre-pandemic levels up to last year 2025, and when we've looked at emergency attendances across England for children and young people with mental health problems. We've seen a rise of over a third in that period of time. So what we've seen is that that rise in children, young people,

who are coming in with mental health issues, has kind of risen year on year, and it's the same across all different age groups, particularly for younger children, that pretentage rises higher, but actually, in terms of absolute numbers, that's true across all of the different age groups. That's really telling us that these children, young people,

and their families are presenting to, in crisis, to a place that isn't really equipped to deal with mental health kind of crisis in this way. And they're really crying out for help in looking for anywhere that they can turn to. You know, the word crisis strikes me. What do we mean when we say a mental health crisis in this context? So, I mean, it can be a range of different things. But I think that, you know, from children, young people who are coming with extreme depression or anxiety who have self-harm or I, I, about self-harm to eating disorders, which is kind of precipitating in a significant physical kind of issue, or extremely challenging behaviours, for instance, at home that are being increasingly difficult to manage and they find themselves at risk of harming themselves or other people.

It can be a range of different things. I guess what the issue really is is that actually they shouldn't really be resenting to emergency departments, which are really equipped for physical illness. if I break my leg or if I have a heart attack, God forbid, that's absolutely the right place to be for me to go. But they're not really designed to look after children and young people at a really distressing time in their lives. And the staff don't have the skills to be able to manage that

and the resources to be able to manage that in the right way. I mean, one of, I suppose, the lines from it as well that stood out to me and you did get these figures from a freedom of information request from 2019 to 2015, as you say. was six to nine-year-olds that are mentioned in this, which seems so young to be presenting? Yeah, that's absolutely right. Now, we've seen that, so it's probably important to say that in the grand scheme of things,

those numbers are relatively small compared to the older age groups, of course. But we have seen that a significant rise in that group. And I guess that's telling us a couple of things. One is probably that it represents a rise in the general mental health needs for that group of children, which reflects itself across, you know, lots of different figures and other ways that they're seeking help. But also perhaps that the resources and the skills and the expertise in mental health services, community mental health services, etc., just maybe aren't equipped to deal with that age group, and children and young people are finding families

are having to find that, you know, they're looking for help in any kind of available place that they can. And emergency departments are open 24 hours a day. And it's often the place that parents go when they feel like they have got nowhere else to turn to. Well, do they have somewhere else they could go? If it's, I don't know, late at night, they are coming up against a really challenging situation. What would you say? Yeah, there's a really important point. So I think there's two things to that.

One is that I think we know that there are crisis services that are available for people in mental health crisis. But they're predominantly aimed towards the old age groups, you know, adult patients. and certainly some children, but actually, again, of that older age group. So they're not often equipped to deal when they're not, you know, we don't really have that sort of resource. And it's really important that the government starts to think about putting that resource in at the right place. But the second thing, I suppose, is to, it's really to try and avoid that crisis in the first place. And what we know is that actually the capacity to be able to support families to be able to deal with those issues in the community before they reach a crisis point, particularly for that younger age group, is really missing.

again, it's need of investment. We do have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. Their spokesperson said no child should have to reach crisis point before getting the support they need. That's why we're making it easier to access mental health support in schools and colleges and opening more than 150 new mental health facilities, including community centres, offering same-day walk-in support to help young people get help earlier and closer to home. Later this year, our mental health strategy will set out our long-term plans to build a system that helps people earlier and ensures fewer young people end up needing emergency care.

And again, all of those things are really welcome. I would like to point out, I suppose, one thing, which is, and it would be really great if we could kind of get that embedded in the mental health strategy in terms of the parity between children and young people's mental health services and adult mental health services. At the moment, we know that about a quarter, we know that a quarter of the population are children, young people, and yet the spend in mental health only accounts for about 10% or just under that. and we know that if you invest that earlier on in the kind of life course,

you're going to prevent problems going forwards and developing as it come adults. I mean, that is really interesting, the 25% to the 10%, but I suppose, and this is just off the top of my head with that specific stats behind it, is that perhaps in previous generations they would not have expected mental health issues to be in that younger population. in the way that is presenting now and obviously that rise that you talk about as well. I'd be curious for your thoughts

whether you think that might be some of the thinking and also what you're seeing in your day-to-day work as a pediatrician away from A&E. Yeah. So I think there's an element of truth to that. I think our system is set up and resourced in a quite a historical way and partly that's because you know, some of the, you know,

we're kind of working always towards the kind of, you know, when the problems arise rather than thinking about prevention. We actually know that about a quarter of all mental health conditions in adulthood stem have started by the age of 14. So we know that these things stem from childhood. And if we can tackle them early, then actually we're going to prevent that causing problems down the line. It's also worth remembering that actually, you know, the mental health issues affecting children and young people don't just affect that

child. They affect the family. They affect their ability to be productive adults, but also their family's ability to be able to work and be productive. And we're talking about trying to build a productive society, then actually that investment is really critical from an economic perspective. And your other question about is this reflected in real life? I think honestly, if you speak to any pediatric pediatric health service in this country today, will tell you that these figures absolutely reflect our experience. We are seeing increasing numbers of children and people presenting, not just an emergency department, but also other sort of places that are set up for physical health. So my general pediatric clinic, GP,

surgeries with these sorts of mental health problems. And it really reflects a lack of mental health support services, both in terms of community-based services, child labourism, mental health, but also that bit around investing in educational setting, you know, mental health support in educational settings, which is really crucial. And I mean, these are the symptoms that people are presenting with. But do you see a cause? Yeah, that's tricky. So I think it's important to I recognise that part of the issue around the rising numbers of mental health conditions and diagnosis is a better awareness, right? Sort of from health professionals, but also from families about some of those challenges that are around. But I think there's definitely a rise in actual challenges that these people are facing.

And it is really complicated. There are kind of social factors. I know people will talk a lot about the evidence isn't entirely clear, but a lot around the changing kind of environment for children and young people at the moment, both in terms of their peers, the kind of online community, etc. So there's definitely an element of that. But also it's important to remember that there are kind of deeper structural elements to this. Mental health problems arise from growing up as well in places that are, you know, in childhoods that are traumatic or the people living in poverty. And we have seen those rise over the last, you know, 10 or 20 years. So I think

there's long, there's deep-rooted societal causes as well as actually our ability to do. able to provide support from a health service perspective as well, both of which are important to tackle. Interesting. Let me bring in Kate Silverton, who has been listening to our conversation. Good to have you back with us, Kate. I'd be curious how you are interpreting some of the figures and the conversation that we're having. Well, what a sad indictment on current society, isn't it, with this troubling figure you've both picked up on it there, the 62% increase among six to nine-year-olds. Children that young, communicate. distress primarily through their bodies and behaviour. So by the time a family arrives in A&E,

we're often looking at the end of a long story, not its beginning. This is not then simply a question of what is wrong with our children. We need to be asking, as Dr. Ching has just said, we need to be asking what has happened around them, what support was missing, and why their family had nowhere safer to turn. So the interventions, the government's announcing, extremely welcome, but we need really now. We need somewhere between cope at home and go to A&E. We need properly funded family hubs. We need school-based support, accessible community teams, rapid response services

that children can reach before crisis point. And parents are not failing. Many are carrying frightened children through a system with impossibly high threshold. So, you know, supporting the child means supporting the adults around them too. And we talk about that crisis point. We talk about A&E, for example, and you talk about some of the places you would like

to have available to those parents and those children, for example, Kate. But what signs can parents look out for before they get to a point where they're obviously not able to cope at home? Very good question. I think what we want to do is determine between distress and disorder. we must neither dismiss children's suffering but nor medicalise every difficult emotion. So this is where my work comes in because sadness, fear, anger, anxiety are normal. The concern is when distress is persistent, escalating and impairing a child's daily life or creating risk.

So my work, and I can only talk for me, but as a therapist, when I'm working in schools, we really need to be having much more sort of, I work from an evidence base, I talk about neuroscience, I talk about the nervous system, because this is the driver of so much of our children's behaviour. And when we can understand that, rather than seeing children as somehow naughty or disordered, we can start working with that and helping them to regulate. A lot of this is in sort of dysregulation. It's when it gets beyond what a parent can cope with or the child, can cope with, that we start to see these really serious problems. But as a first port of call, from when we have babies, is understanding emotional regulation, is understanding how we can

bring our children back to calm healthily and understanding that emotions are our guide to life. They are perfectly, they're normal, they are human. They're part of what makes us human. So having just more accessible conversations around that so we can support our children through the highs and lows of life, and then we can determine, sorry, Nebula, because you ask me what parents can look out for. I think not to be alarmed when our children are displaying the highs and lows of emotions. So that's where I started in terms of having that conversation, speaking to teachers, how is my child displaying at school, for example,

because children may often display bigger emotions either at home or at school, so we can start building up a picture of where the triggers might be. Clearly, when the behaviour is persistent, if our child is persistently withdrawn, staying in their room, if a child young is just not able to regulate, seek help. There is absolutely no shame. And this is the big stumbling block for parents, I think, where they end up in crisis because they do nothing, not because they don't care, but because they're frightened. And so what we need to be saying to parents is, there is no shame.

Parenting is hard right now. It's really hard right now. But to go where, Kate, to seek help? To where you feel safe. So if that is your GP, if that is your health visitor, if that is a trusted person at school, and just to know that we are all in this together and we want to help.

And also registered bodies, I'm registered with the BACP, look online and you can type in your postcode if you go on to the BACP or UKCP, registered professional bodies that are there you help. I think as you were speaking there, Kate, I was feeling for those parents, like, it is a lot on their shoulders if they have a child that they're trying to figure out exactly how to help them. So I think what you're saying will be very useful advice to people that

are listening. Thank you both so much for joining us, Kate Silverton, that we were just hearing from, child therapist and parenting author, and also Dr. Ronnie Chung, who is the RCCHs, that's the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health. He is their officer for health services looking at some of those figures that came out from a freedom of information requests. And if you have been affected by anything that you've been hearing in this conversation,

go to the BBC Action Line where there are also links to help and support. 844, if you would like to get in touch with us this morning and, of course, all the usual ways on social media as well. Now, when Chavon Daniels joined us on Women's Hour, during Listener Week. This was a couple of years ago. She shared the story of finding her happy place by swapping a traditional lifestyle for life on the road.

She shed her positions, gave up her home to live a nomadic life in her motorhome that she called Dora the Explorer. Well, the 66-year-old has been living that way for more than seven years now. Now, Chavonne, when we told her story, it really struck a chord with you. 1.3 million of you watched some of her story

on our social media platforms. Since then, Chauvonne has told us she's inspired others to buy a van and set off on adventures on their own. Maybe you've got one. Maybe you want to tell me about it, 844-844. But Chavon is back with a book, Retire and Refire, the Continuing Adventures of the Retirement Rebel. And it chronicles her 4,000-mile solo RV or recreational vehicle adventure from Canada to Alaska along the Alaska Highway. What a trip. Chavon came to the Woman's Air Studio and I asked her why she had to say. decided to take on this trip.

It was just one of those crazy ideas that I keep getting. And most people would say, okay, just push that idea away, leave it alone. But with me, I just get more and more excited and think, I want to do it. I can do it. And I was frightened and I wanted to face my fear. Was there something about that part of the world that was particularly intriguing to you? Years ago when I'd gone around Norway and I'd gone to Nordcap and it was all barren. And I remember vaguely thinking, oh, I'd love to go somewhere even more remote to Alaska.

And that's it. I'd never really thought about it. But then I was talking with my cousin who lives on Vancouver Island. And we just had a phone call and she said, it's about time you came over to visit us. And I don't know where it can. I just giggled and went, oh, maybe I could drive the Alaska Highway. Went to bed that night, woke up the next morning and it was still there in my head. and then I started Googling things and then I started looking to see

maybe could I take the door of the explorer my motor home over there? You know, I just was looking into all possibilities of doing it. So for those that aren't familiar with that part of the world, can you describe where you went? Yeah, I left, I went from Vancouver all the way to Whistler

through to Prince George where I had to have the van winter rise because I was then facing minus 15 degrees. and then I went up through the Yukon, through Whitehorse, into Watson Lake, through across the border, into Alaska and up to Delta Junction, which is the end of the official Alaska Highway. But then I kept going. I went even further north in Alaska to Fairbanks,

down through Donali Park, down to Anchorage, across two mountain passes, back to Whitehorse in the Yukon, and that's where I left the RV. How long did that take? A month. It took me a month. I picked the RV up on the 1st of April and I dropped it off on the very last day of April. So, but these are extreme conditions you were going through. Tell me a little bit about how you were preparing for this challenge and how the reality measured up. That's a good question because I thought I had prepared. I thought I'd done my research about the frost.

heaves I was going to encounter. The what? The frost, the permafrost, makes the roads go up and down, undulating roads is what I thought I was going to face. The reality of what I did face, because it's minus 60 degrees, 50 degrees in the winter, was roads that were absolutely ravaged

with big holes and falling away at one side and cracks in them. And when the snow was coming down or when it was very foggy, it was really difficult. And there were a couple of times, I sort of pulled over and had a good cry and thought, what are you doing? Were you able to answer that question? Yes, I was able to do.

You are telling women all the time over the last seven years you've been living your nomadic life to face their fears, to not let self-limiting behaviours like I can't do this or I'm too afraid or I'm too old. So this was my opportunity to really show women that were not too old, were not too late. So I pushed through that fear and I'm so glad I did. And I know people may be familiar already with your story,

but you gave up your home, your possessions, you bought a motorhome, which we call Dora the Explorer, and that, you know, you travelled around facing your fears in that motorhome. But you couldn't bring Dora because obviously the distance you had to hire. And the expense. Yeah, totally the expense. Really a long, long way away. So you didn't even really have, I suppose, that security.

as I would imagine, your usual motorhome would give you? No, not at all. I mean, the Caravan and Motor Home Club helps me source the motorhome. I didn't really know what kind of motorhome I was going to get, or how big or anything. And when I got there, it was a three-birth RV, not too much bigger than Dora, but a different shape. And it was automatic, and it was the other side of the road.

The other side of that bumpy road. Yeah. Yeah. And some of them were mountain passes. so they were very, very narrow with bits falling to one side. It was a challenge, but I wanted a challenge. I knew when I decided to go out there in the April that it was when winter breaks

and that I was going to face harsh conditions. But I wanted to give myself that little bit more of a challenge than just driving along the road. But I did, if I'm honest, underestimate the extent of the challenge. Okay, let's do the low light first and then we'll do the highlight. What would you say was the level? low light of the trip. The low light of the trip was when I'd got to whistle very early on when I thought I'd done a really good job of plugging in my electrics and plugging in my water

and getting all set up and I spent the night. Next morning I thought, on my motorhome, I've got a little light that tells me when my electric's connected properly and I wasn't sure where the light was. So I banged on the door of another motorhome and asked them and somebody came and helped me and he said, oh no, you've not got it connected right. Because in Canada, down is off and up is on. So when I lifted the lid of the connection thing and I, oh yeah, it's on. So it's a blooming good job I did do it because I could have been miles from anywhere in the wilderness. I mean, they don't call it the final frontier for nothing. Draining my battery and having no power at all. So thank goodness I found out. So that really, it really kind of shocked

me. It made me realize, Chavonne, you need to take this seriously. This could be down because you wouldn't even have mobile service, I'm sure. No, I had an SOS. Satellite, emergency, SOS thing that I carried with me and I could text people. I had a small group of people that I could text. I'm going from A to B, I expect to be here at this time

and they could track me as well on a map, but that was all. But obviously if you got into difficulty it would take a while to get to you because you're in the middle of nowhere. Yes. Okay, let's talk about the highlights. The highlights for me

were the fact that when I embarked on this I decided I wasn't going to download music and I wasn't going to download podcasts. I wasn't going to clutter myself with noise like we do. I was going to see how I fared. And the highlight for me was stepping out of the motorhome in the middle of nowhere in absolute silence.

I started crying. I was overwhelmed. I can't articulate really how I felt in that moment. But it was just how often do you get, absolute silence and chance to really go deep into your thoughts. And there were periods that it was a high, but it was also a low. I cried for the little girl that I was

and things that had happened in my life. But I also celebrated great things that had happened in my life like having my daughter. But the silence and the remoteness of it all just gave me the opportunity to do that. I suppose it gives you perspective because we realise how this tiny particle that we are in the natural,

world. It was just incredible and also seeing things like bison and wild deer and all the animals that I saw. Luckily I didn't see bears. Oh, we need to talk about bears. Tell me about your bear, if not experience, perhaps vigilance. Well, from the moment I was planning it, everybody kept saying, be careful of the bears. So it was heightened my fear of bears. And they handed me over a bear spray when I picked up the RV. What does the birds? What does a bear spray? Brear spray do, exactly. I've no idea. I still don't know. I didn't even get it out of its packet.

But they did say I needed to be bare aware, and they kept being signs in places. And apparently, if it's brown, lie down. And if it's black, fight back. You go as big as you can. Whatever colour, I'm sure I'd have just fainted. So, yes, you know, searching in your handbag for your bear spray. But you did see one, but I'm just thinking, you know, there's a level of vigil. that you had to have at all times.

And I did have sort of a low-grade headache a lot of the time. And I think, looking back, I think that I realised the level of stress that I was feeling all the time. I was enjoying it and it was great. But there was that underlying level of stress about. Also, the bison just wandering on the road, you know, and the moose, they're all over the place. So you're sort of, you're vigilant, the holes in the roads, the wild animals, just driving a vehicle that I'm not used to.

Did you ever want to just give up, just pull in, tell the company to come and pick up the motor home and be done? No, because every time I'd probably have a difficult day, something great would happen. Another highlight for me was when I'd finished the Alaska Highway and I thought things couldn't get any better, I was then driving up towards Fairbanks and I spotted two figures in the middle of a massive frozen lake

and there was a pullover, so I pulled over, jumped out, and I saw where they made their way, way to the centre of that. So I just ran into the middle of this lake and it was two ladies in their... So you're literally walking on the frozen lake? Frozen lake. A massive lake. I was running going cooey! And they were looking as if to say

who the heck's this madwoman. And they'd cut a hole in the ice and they were fishing with these gorgeous little ornate fishing rods and they let me sit with them and fish. I didn't catch any but one of the ladies did. And they were talking about life

for women in Alaska, how it changed about ageism, about the elders in their communities and traditions, how climate change things for them. So that was really great. They were First Nations women. Yeah, two First Nations women. And it was incredible. So times when you'd want to give up, you'd suddenly have an experience like that. And then I was just buzzing again and thinking, what else am I going to discover? Shavon Daniels there. Her book is out on the 17th of September. It's It is retire and refire. And, you know, I did look it up afterwards, bear spray.

What is it? Well, it is a spray made from a concentration of the oil from hot chili peppers. And it works apparently on all bear species. Very glad Chavonne didn't have to use it. Lovely to have her back. If you would like to see a video of some of Chavon's journey, just head to our Instagram. BBC Woman's Hour on Instagram is the place to find us.

Thanks for your messages. that are coming in this morning. One, in relation to our first item when we were talking about young children and mental health, my seven-year-old was caught in a severe meltdown, screaming, crying, hitting the ground. This went on for three hours until the neighbours called the police. The police were great.

This was something they had seen before. He's autistic and had school anxiety. Because of this event, we finally got access to CAMS, which is the child and adolescent mental health services. But when I told CAMS, I was going to home educate, they said they could sign them off the system as school was the trigger for the anxiety and that had been removed.

Then I had to deal with the post-school trauma alone. Thanks very much for your message. Sorry, you had to go through that. 844 if you'd like to get in touch with us. Now, next, a menopause specialist has said that she is aware that women are posing as men to buy testosterone from online pharmacies because of the difficulties getting an NHS

prescription in Wales as a woman. We're joined by the BBC's health correspondent Jenny Rees, who's been looking into this. Hi Jenny, good to have you with us. So what can you tell us about why some women are pretending to be men to buy testosterone online? Yeah, so I spoke to two different specialists in different parts of Wales about this.

And they were saying that what they're seeing is because of the struggles that women are having when they're trying to get an NHS prescription that some are resorting to basically posing as a man, to buy from an online pharmacy, filling in the details, but then obviously getting, potentially getting a dose that's designed for men. Now, the difficulties that the problem they see with that is that women need far lower doses. So, for example, if you see one of the little small sachets that a man would have every day, a woman would have to kind of eke that out over eight days,

a little blob on over eight days. Now, the challenge, I guess, for them then, is that they're seeing that women are potentially not being monitored. Not having blood tests done. And so it's easy for that little block to get a little bit bigger each day. And before you know it, their levels are actually too high. And they want to keep women within the kind of the female physiological range. Now, how difficult is it then for women in Wales to get a testosterone prescription prescription through the NHS? It absolutely depends on where you live.

Right. There's different rules within different health boards. You've got seven different health boards in Wales. Now, some of them have a system where you can. only get it from a hospital menopause specialist. It has to come from secondary care. Others have got a system where you can potentially get it from your GP with the support of the secondary care team, the hospital team. But you don't know which area you, you know, you happen to live in under this sort of traffic light system. The other challenge as well that

I spoke to to GPs about this actually is even if they have free reign to be able to prescribe with the oversight of specialists from the hospital. They can find that perhaps there may only be one menopause specialist within the GP surgery. And so then it could be that that person is, you can almost be overwhelmed with the numbers of patients from, you know, within your area who are wanting to see them because they can prescribe testosterone. So the surgery may sometimes say, well, actually, you know, let's put a ban on this. Nobody can get that because it's an unfair workload on one person. So there's different rules depending on where So quite complex. A message came in, Jenny. Let me read this to you. My doctor has prescribed me testosterone. She told me that it was not licensed for women, but could be prescribed for low libido. She knew I was single and I told her I was lonely and wanted to find someone, but didn't feel like getting intimate. That was enough to be prescribed. I feel very lucky to have a doctor who knows that women are not being served well by the health service. So interesting there, that is one.

one I suppose reason that it may be prescribed or that women may look for it. What other benefits are there that women say, or indeed menopause specialists, that testosterone can have? Yes, you know, the studies show that libido is the main reason that the NHS would be able to prescribe it. But anecdotally, you speak to so many women who are on it and say that actually it's been a game changer for them. There isn't the research at the moment to back this up.

But they would say that, for example, you know, it's energy levels, it's cognition. It's reducing that brain fog. It's one woman told me that she feels she's got her zest for life back. It's that missing piece of the puzzle. Now, it's not for everyone. It won't have that impact on everyone. But then the studies at the moment, for example, show that 60% of women will have an improved libido. There is research going on in Wales, actually, looking to see if they can back up,

with science, all of those anecdotal pieces of evidence that suggests that it can have so many other benefits to. And I suppose it's still such a small number as it appears from the women we have spoken to that's actually getting it prescribed. That'll probably be another little bit of time before they have extensive research on that. Now, so some are calling for access to testosterone to be fairer, to be wider, to be safer for women. You did ask the Welsh government for a response? Yes, yeah. One of the specialists I spoke to said that, you know, she'd love to be able to see a pan-wales prescribing when it comes to, you know, HRT, never mind testosterone, so that it doesn't matter where you live. You can have equitable care. Now, talks are underway around that. I asked the Welsh government specifically about that. They didn't come back with, you know, a response to that. But they simply said that all health boards in Wales are expected to follow nice guidelines on, you know, both the identification and management of menopause, including making. sure that women have individualised care when prescribing HRT. They're aware that this may include some practitioners prescribing testosterone for some women.

And so it remains to be seen exactly whether there will be any changes to that. But a really interesting story brought to us this morning by Jenny Rees, then you can read online about why women are opposing, some women, I should say, in Wales are posing as men to procure testosterone. Thanks very much for joining us. Thanks also for your messages that are coming in on a range of issues. Here's one. Our child has been self-harming over six months.

This is, of course, a distressing detail, but without an actual suicide attempt, we are on a waiting list with no date for a first appointment. The advice is to call the police or go to A&E if there is a crisis. So just another insight there from a listener on the story we're speaking about at the top of the program. I will again say if you are affected by these issues that I'm speaking about this morning,

you can go to the BBC Action Line where there are links to help and support. 8444-844 if you'd like to get in touch. Growing businesses deal with the same problem, too many tools, too much back and forth, and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform,

fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, Odu gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's ODb-O.com. Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows,

like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts. premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Now this summer, Woman's Hour has been hearing from some of the academics who've been working with Radio 4 about their research. Today we hear from Professor Nandini Das, Professor of Early Modern Literature and Culture at the University of Oxford.

In her new book, This Little World, a new history of Tudor and Stuart England, she highlights lesser-known figures from this period of history, like the art. artist Levina Tierlink. She recorded this insight for us. There's art everywhere in this period. And one of the things that really attracts a lot of artists is what we might call illumination, which is when you have a beautiful manuscript and the edges of the manuscript are decorated with beautiful art or the initials have beautiful kind of little miniature scenarios painted inside. them. And that takes a lot of precision and expertise. They're done with tiny, tiny, very fine brushes. And you can only imagine how hard that would be at a time when you didn't have spotlights and you were dependent on daylight hours to do that kind of fine work. It might seem strange to us to think about women painters in this period. And it's particularly because we don't tend to

hear that many names of women painters, but actually, if you think about workshops where manuscripts were being illuminated, art historians suspect that it wasn't that uncommon. It's just that women particularly didn't sign their names in their artwork. And also manuscript painters particularly didn't always sign their names in their artworks in the way that maybe famous portrait painters like Holbein would have done. So it's not particularly unusual for an established artist like Simon Benning, who's getting lots of contracts from all over Europe to rope in his daughters alongside his sons or his male apprentices and train them up.

And one such figure is the Tudor artist Levina Thierling. She was born in Bruges. We think around the 1510s. She comes from very well. established family of artists. Her grandfather was a painter. Her father is perhaps the most famous illustrator of manuscripts in this period. And that's the kind of thing that Lovina Thierling would have done. We know and we suspect that she was probably roped in to decorate royal orders. Royal proclamations needed to look fancy in order to impress people with the authority they had.

So you needed colour and preferably quite a bit of gold on them. And that's why you needed artists and illuminators to prepare them and decorate them. And Levina would have been one of those people who were imported into England by English monarchs in order to present that sense of Tudor authority. The frustrating thing about Levina is that we know so very little about her. But there are little glimpses. We know that, for instance, at one point, a Polish artist writes about the talented royal artist Lavinia Thirling, who's in England, who has sent him a miniature of herself. Frustratingly, we don't have that miniature. So we're not sure what she looked like. But one of the clearest examples of how well-known she was within her period comes from an Italian writer. And this is a man called Ludovico.

Guchadini, who writes this huge book. It's kind of like a who's who of continental European art in this period. And he talks about the four great female artists of his times, and one of them is Levina Tailing. Leviner, daughter of the master Simon of Bruges, is in the art of illumination as accomplished and excellent as her father. Therefore, the aforesaid Henry King of England attracted her to his court with every possible reward, where she was afterwards honourably married. She was greatly loved by Queen Mary, and now is most dearly loved by Queen Elizabeth.

He writes about her as if she's someone who's already famous, and you can't really blame him for that. It's not very surprising, given that Levina is the only artist in the Tudor period to be employed by not just Henry VIII, but by Edward, his son, then Mary Tudor, and then Elizabeth I. Now, you only have to think about the average life expectancy of a Tudor courtier or woman in this period to realize that this was a pretty big deal, actually, not only to be alive, but to be in the favor of all of these kings and queens, none of whom saw eye to eye with each other in political or

religious terms, means that she had to have been pretty good, worth the money they were spending on her. When we talk about history, we tend to think about kings and queens. And nowhere is this more true than it is with the Tudors. If I say Tudors, chances are you're immediately thinking of Henry the 8th or Elizabeth I. But if you visit that mental or real gallery full of Tudor portraits, you're actually also acknowledging the invisible presence of people like Lovina, all these invisible artists coming from all over continental Europe and artisans. If you think about Henry's portrait, he's standing on a Turkish carpet. Where does that come from?

He's wearing velvet clothes that are cut in continental manner. Who made those for him? Levina and people like her make that sense of England. Professor Nandini Das on the Tudor artist Levina Tirlink and we'll have a little more history coming up this hour. Not about Henry VIII, but about his wives. How much do you know? You'll know more by the end of this hour.

Let me turn to Scotland. The number of babies born there in the past year was the lowest on record. And the records began in 1855. So what do we know about this downward trend? Well, let's dig into those figures with Esther, who is the head of demographic statistics at the National Records Scotland. Very welcome, Esther. Good to have you with us this morning.

Hello. Right. How many babies were born in Scotland in 2025? And how does that compare with previous years? Well, there were 45,000 or just over 45,000 babies born in Scotland. And as you said, that's the lowest figure since Veckels began in 1855. If you go back, the highest figure over that period was over three times as high. That was more than 100 years ago. But back in the 1960s, there were well over twice as many babies being born as there are now in Scotland. So I know in your role you analyse the data, you don't suggest the reasons or the solutions, but how do you understand the downward trajectory of figures that you're seeing?

So we look at something called total fertility rates, which is effectively the number of children, a woman will have on average over her lifespan. And we've seen that allows you to compare different sizes of population in different countries. So we've seen Scotland's figures falling. In 1971, the average number of children was 2.5. Now we're down to just over 1.2. So it's more than halved just in that period of time. It's interesting, isn't it?

Just to think of family size, which I suppose has probably diminished across the UK. I mean, how does Scotland compare, for example, compared to a UK average? Yeah, so Scotland, the birth rate's lower than the rest of the UK. The average for the UK now is about 1.4. And Scotland, I say, is just over 1.2. So we've been, had lower birth rates in Scotland since the 1980s, and it stayed steadily a bit of a gap between the different parts of the UK. Also interesting.

So let's talk about the replacement rate. Maybe you could explain to our listeners what that is. So it said that for a population to replace itself just through births and deaths, forgetting about migration for a minute, you need a replacement rate of 2.1 children on average. And we're well below that, you know, at 1.2. And the UK as a whole is well below that. And we see it. I think every country in Europe now is below the replacement rate.

And this is, you know, we talk about it in different countries. It's really a global trend. Would that be fair to say when it comes? Yeah, very much so. We see falling birth rates all around the world. Scotland's sort of about in the bottom quarter of countries in Europe, but there are countries with lower birth rates in Europe and, you know, we see South Korea has the lowest figures. But even countries that traditionally had much higher birth rates, we're still seeing the numbers falling now. Yeah, there was an interesting story I saw in this morning's papers that said that

couples in Italy with children will be outnumbered by couples without children within 21 years. So that is really specific. This was Italy's statistics agency. It suggested that the Prime Minister's family-friendly subsidies, for example, aren't changing the country's demographics. That's Georgie Maloney who wanted to up the birth rate. I'm just wondering just your thoughts on that, not that you're on specifically to speak about Italy. Yeah, so Italy. Italy, the average family size, the average number of children have is down to 1.14. So that's one of the lowest in Europe. But it's been low for quite a long time. So back in 1964, Italy had average family size of 2.7. But by 1997, it was down to 1.2. So it's not just the last couple of years. This has been decades that they've seen quite low birth rates there.

Also, going back to Scotland for a moment, jumping from Italy, are fewer Scottish women have babies or are they having fewer babies each? It's a bit of a combination of the two. And we also see that people are having children at an older age. So in the 1960s, most babies were born to mothers in their 20s, now most are born to mothers in their 30s. So that if everybody's having children at a later age, it slows down the rate of population growth.

And if you don't start till later, then, the maximum family size you're able to have is obviously affected by that as well. Yeah, I'm often fascinated by my grandparents, for example, that were having children consistently for 20 years, for example, which perhaps is less likely at the moment in certain countries. How does the work you do influence policy decisions or planning? Yeah, it's really heavily used

because this affects our overall population structure. So we've also, we've got an aging population, people have been living longer, but also all the babies that were born back in the past when we had much higher birth rates, they're now getting older. So it affects things like planning maternity services, if you've got fewer children,

and feeds into planning nursery services and schools and then universities and then the workforce, and then right through to healthcare and social care and things like that. So it's really important to try to, understand the total number of people that you have to support as a country. But it's just as important to understand the age structure and how that's changing. And it's not the same as it was when I was a child and it will be different again when our children grow up. I mean, so many of

the issues that you mention there, Esther, stuff that we that we cover extensively here on women's ourselves. It's really interesting to know of the real time, day-to-day impact of figures that you look at. Okay, you mentioned babies there. You all. also collate, I understand, popular baby names. Yes. Okay, what have we got last year? So the most popular names in Scotland last year were Freya for girls and there were for boys. I also looked up Nula.

I have a feeling it was not that popular. I'm going to go out in the limb here. Well, it's increasing. So back in the 1970s and 80s, very few baby girls in Scotland were called Nula. But then this number started to go up. Peaked at about 14 Nulahs in a year. Last year there were eight baby girls. in Scotland called Nula.

Whereas I also looked up Anita. And that name shows the opposite trends. There were more Nitas back in the 70s and 80s and now very few Anitas. Most names have changed very few were just stable over time. Yeah, fascinating, isn't it? I have to say, there was a couple of Nulahs

on my street growing up, but they were much older women than me. And rare the baby Nula that I have encountered. But really interesting to hear your work and I'll pass it on to Anita as well. Esther, Rof Sedge, thank you so much for joining us, who has been looking at those figures

that the number of babies born in Scotland last year was the lowest on record. Thank you for your messages that are coming in. Let's go back to testosterone for a moment. Sally in London says, since when have anecdotes dictated availability and suitability of medication, we need to go through rigorous testing

to make sure women are safe. I could say that cocaine gives me a zest for life. It would be ridiculous to expect it then on prescription. 8484.8.4. as we talk about. One of the stories we've been talking about this morning. Let me move on. Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. Words familiar to many of you. Maybe you learned them at school. But what do we all really know about the wives of Henry the 8th? Well, there is a campaign to make sure that children learn more in the future than those six words. Let me bring in Tracy Borman, chief historian at the historic royal palaces to tell us more. So there is a campaign. campaign underway. Tracy, you're very welcome. What are you hoping to achieve?

That's right. So today, Historic Royal Palaces is launching a campaign to teach the six queens differently. And you're quite right. That rhyme is how most people know the six wives of Henry the Eighth. And they're called six wives, more than six queens. But what we want to do at the palaces is to put the spotlight on these six extraordinary women and really explore their lives. in their own right, not just their marriage to Henry VIII, which, of course, that was a significant part of many of the Queen's lives, but not the only part. And what we want is to really bring their personalities to the four, their achievements. And I'm thinking of the likes of Anne Boleyn, arguably the most famous of the six queens today. She was a radical religious reformer, and arguably there wouldn't have been the Reformation, or at least not in the same way, without.

Anne Berlin, and she inspired her daughter Elizabeth. And yet, we've become just fixated with her love affair with Henry and the tragic end to that at the Tower of London. So that's just one example, but there are so many rich stories that we're hoping to bring forward. Because it's often their demise that people hear about instead of their lives.

What do you, your campaign I know will highlight the queens, we shan't say wives, it's like queens, as diplomat, scholars, political operators and survivors. what do you think when you take a look at them as a whole, what it tells us about the power that women could exercise in Tudor England and perhaps also the limitations? Yeah. Well, what's become really clear from the research we've done

is just the extent of the power. And taking, for example, Catherine of Aragon, who is often seen just as, you know, rejected wife, the first divorce, but actually she was a regent, she was a diplomat. She led an army when she was pregnant. This was a formidable woman, and she's by no means alone. When you look at the other five queens, they all have quite remarkable, very different histories. And it's not just about comparing them, although that's always tempting, but really looking at them individually.

They're six very, very different women. And they all left their mark on English history. And on the palaces at the Tower of London Hampton Court where I'm looking enough to. to work. We're walking the footsteps of the six queens every single day. So it's wonderful to be able to tell stories that people might not be so aware of as opposed to just the way in which their marriage to Henry VIII ended. Now, you're working with schools on this project. I'm curious how the children respond when they're introduced really to these women as complex individuals instead of one of the wives. Yes, exactly. And we've got a whole range of new resources for schools.

teacher packs. We've filmed videos with the cast of Sixth the musical because they six of, you know, they really blazed a trail with this and put the focus very firmly on the women. And as a super fan, I've seen it 12 times. I can tell you that it's not the same thing. Hang on a second. Hang on, Tracy. We need to talk about that. You've seen it 12 times. I realize I'm addicted. But do you get something different from it each time? What draws you back? I just love it. the cast changes, I find something different from it each time. And that's, you know, it's been wonderful to collaborate with six. So children, when they visit the historic Royal Palace's website, they're going to be able to see videos talking to each of the six queens and in rooms

across Hampton courts and exploring their individual stories. So that's been a wonderful collaboration that's part of this campaign. You mentioned Catherine Varagon. You mentioned Anne Boleyn. Is there another queen that you think history is really misunderstood? Yes, and my own personal favourite is Anne of Cleaves. So her marriage to Henry comprised only six months of her life. You know, this is a woman who lived into her 40s. Quite extraordinary, again, just seen as the rejected ugly wife and nothing else to her. I think we should be talking about her as the most successful of the six queens because she negotiated an extraordinary divorce. settlement, five palaces, £20,000 a year, royal status. And she enjoyed that rare privilege of living as an independent, very wealthy woman long after

her marriage to Henry VIII. You mentioned she lived into her 40s, and obviously with some of these wives, their lives ended before they should have. But how long could a woman expect to live at those times? So the average life expectancy for a Tudor woman was 35, but that's a woman. That was skewed by high infant mortality. And obviously for a woman, the greatest peril was childbirth. And that accounted for a huge amount of early deaths in this period,

which I guess is understandable and was certainly, you know, you look back at the history of the six queens. And they had a difficult experience when it came to producing the all-important male air and suffered miscarriages, stillbirths. and in the case of the last Queen Catherine Parr, she died in childbirth, or no, not from her marriage to Henry VIII. He was just her third of four husbands.

Such fascinating details, Tracy Borman. Thank you for bringing it all to life for us, the chief historian at the historic royal palaces who's getting that campaign underway. Tracy, I need to let you know that tomorrow we're going to be marking Radio 4's Norman Day by discussing the impact of the Norman invasion on the women of Britain.

You might be interested in that. We'll also hear about an extraordinary well. Welsh princess of the Norman era who was a lover of the king and married to an invading Norman Baron, but whose loyalties could never be determined. So that is one to tune in for. Also, we're going to speak to an NHS doctor. This woman is also a motor enthusiast. And she's launching women-only workshops, so teaching practical car maintenance so that women feel more empowered, should they ever find themselves broken down and, you know, in what could be a vulnerable situation. And we're also

going to take a look at the changes to nursery safeguarding. The government has brought that into effect this week, no doubt. Also, you'll have thoughts on that as well. Get in touch with the programme tomorrow. All in the usual ways. Don't forget to check out Chavon Daniel's video on Instagram

at BBC Women's Hour and we will see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The Moral Mays on BBC Radio 4. I've never been more concerned about the future of humanity than I am now. Examining one of the week's main news stories through an ethical lens.

If we don't do something, millions will die, billions will die. That's the state of play here. Sometimes combative, sometimes provocative, always engaging. I'd like to go one level deeper and talk about your fundamental moral commitments. Do you have any? The new series of The Moral Mays with me, Michael Burke, from BBC Radio 4, Listen now on BBC Sounds. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen.

Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription.