Woman's Hour - Child sexual exploitation, Endometriosis reporting tool, Lucy Lawless on Margaret Moth

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

The debate around widescale child sexual abuse and exploitation continues following calls from the Conservatives and Reform UK for a new national inquiry into the issue. Professor Alexis Jay chaired the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. It took seven years and was published in 2022. It warned of "endemic" abuse across society in England and Wales for girls and boys. Professor Jay has called again for implementation of her 20 recommendations. One recommendation was that those who cover up or fail to report child sexual abuse could face professional or criminal sanctions. The Home Secretary Yvette Cooper last night announced that has said that will be implemented as a new offence this year. Nuala McGovern speaks to Maggie Oliver, Founder and Chair of the Maggie Oliver Foundation, who was a former detective who resigned from Greater Manchester Police in late 2012 in order to expose the Rochdale Grooming Scandal, and Ken MacDonald, Director of Public Prosecutions from 2003-2008.It's hoped a tool which allows women in Wales to log and report symptoms of endometriosis will empower patients to get help from their GPs and potentially lead to quicker diagnosis. It's estimated one in 10 women suffer from the condition, which can cause debilitating period pain and is linked to fertility issues. Nuala speaks to Dr Robyn Jackowich, one of the academics whose worked on the reporting tool, and Karen Hiu Ching Lo, who suffers with endometriosis.The England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) has been urged to boycott next month’s Champions Trophy match against Afghanistan by a group of more than 160 politicians. The England men’s ODI side are due to face Afghanistan in Lahore on 26 February but there are calls for the ECB to refuse the fixture, taking a stand against the Taliban regime’s ongoing assault on women’s rights. Nuala discusses the issues with Felix Jakens, Head of Campaigns for Amnesty International.Lucy Lawless, best known for playing Xena: Warrior Princess, joins Nuala to discuss another fearless woman. In her directorial debut, Never Look Away, she explores Margaret Moth, a warzone camerawoman for CNN who covered conflicts from the liberation of Kuwait in the early 90s to the Lebanon War in the mid-2000s armed only with a camera and an attitude.BBC Eye have released an animation narrated by Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe for BBC 100 Women 2024. It tells the stories of three women imprisoned in the notorious Evin prison in Iran. Nuala is joined by former Evin prisoner, Mahdieh Golroo and BBC Persian reporter, Baran Abbasi to discuss the prison’s reputation.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Professor Alexis Jay, who led a seven-year inquiry into child sexual abuse in England and Wales, has said victims clearly want action. Her comments come as a debate rages over whether a new national inquiry into child sexual abuse and exploitation is needed. Professor Jay says that time has passed and instead her recommendations need to be implemented. But what do victims want now?

And how are they affected by the current developments? I'd also like to hear from you this morning, your reaction to what you've been hearing on the issue and what you would like to happen next. You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. You can also send a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 03700 100 444. Also today on the programme whether to boycott international cricket in Afghanistan over the Taliban's treatment of women.

We'll also hear today from Lucy Lawless of Xena Warrior Princess fame. She will tell us about the incredible life and career of the fearless war zone camera woman, Margaret Moth. She has made a film about her and what an amazing woman Margaret Moth was. Also on the programme, a new tool that could help diagnose endometriosis and inside the notorious Evin Women's Prison in Iran. That is all coming up.

Let me begin with the debate around wide-scale child sexual abuse and exploitation. It continues following calls from the Conservatives and Reform UK for a new national inquiry into the issue. Professor Alexis Jay, who I mentioned, chaired

the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. It took seven years and it was published in 2022. It warned of endemic abuse across society in England and Wales for girls and boys. Professor Jay previously published a landmark report in 2014 that found at least 1,400 children were subjected to sexual abuse. And she detailed how girls as young as 11 were raped, trafficked, abducted, beaten and intimidated by men predominantly of Pakistani heritage in Rotherham. this week for implementation of her 20 recommendations, including that those who fail to report child sexual abuse or covering it up could face professional or criminal sanctions. Well, the Home Secretary Yvette Cooper last night announced that this recommendation will be implemented as a new offence as part of the Crime and Policing Bill this spring.

And to ensure that victims' voices remain at the very heart of this process, I can tell the House that we will set up a new Victims and Survivors panel to work on an ongoing basis with the inter-ministerial group to guide them on the design, delivery and implementation of new proposals and plans, not just on the ICSA inquiry, but ar waith llawer o waith o ran ysgogi seiliedig teithiau plant a chyfrif, a byddwn yn adlewyrchu mwy o ddewisiadau a thamsgau ar y gwaith. Yn cynnwys hynny, gallaf gyhoeddi gweithgareddau trefnol. Yn gyntaf, gallaf ddiweddoli y byddwn yn gwneud hynny'n gyfrifol i adroddi gyrfaoedd, ac y byddwn yn rhoi'r fesurau yn y

Bil Crimaidd a'r Polisiaeth y byddwn yn ei roi cyn i'r Par yn y Bil Criwm a'r Polisi y bydd yn cael eu rhoi cyn gynted ym mis Ymlaen, yn gwneud hynny'n ofens, gyda chyfranogwyr proffesiynol a chriminol i ddim yn adrodd neu cofio abwysedd seksual plant. Mae'r diogelu o sefydliadau ddim yn rhaid i ni ddim yn cael eu rhoi cyn gynted y diogelu plant. Mae'r fesur hwn yn rhywbeth rwyf gyntaf wedi'i gofyn amdano ar gyfer y adroddiadau a'r ffailioedd yn Rotherham 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae'n rhywbeth y cyflwynwyd y Prif Weinidog 12 mlynedd yn ôl, o ran ei profiad fel Rheolwr Cyfraithol. Roedd y ffair yn glir yna, ond rydyn ni wedi colli ddeged, ac mae angen i ni fynd i'w ddod â hwn nawr. Yn ogystal, byddwn ni hefyd yn arweiniol i wneud gwneud ymdrinio a'r

ffactor agorol yn y cyflogwyd o ofnion seksuol plant, oherwydd bod y rhaid i ni ddod â'r pethau arno nawr. Yn ail, byddwn ni hefyd yn argymell i wneud in a clear new performance framework for policing, so these crimes are taken far more seriously. The Independent Inquiry recommended, as one of its first recommendations, a single core data set on child abuse and protection, but that's never been done. We'll introduce a single child identifier in the Children and Wellbeing Bill and a much stronger police performance framework,

including new standards on public protection, child abuse and exploitation the home secretary Yvette Cooper last night in the commons or professor Alexis Jay who did lead that report for seven years into child sexual abuse also had this to say on a potential new inquiry to the today program this morning I think that the time has passed for more inquiries. We've had enough of inquiries, consultations and discussions, and especially for those victims and survivors who've had the courage to come forward, and there are many of them, across the piece in child sexual abuse, not simply in child sexual exploitation. And they clearly want action, and we have set

out what action is required and people should just get on with it locally and nationally. I've heard very little in the public discourse that's taken place in the last few days, if you could dignify it with that description, that have mentioned children and the appalling and lifelong effects that child sexual abuse can have on people. Let me bring in Maggie Oliver, founder and chair of the Maggie Oliver Foundation. She was a detective turned whistleblower who resigned from Greater Manchester Police in late 2012 in order to expose the Rochdale grooming scandal.

Good to have you with us again, Maggie. Let's go with these in order. Let me go back first to Yvette Cooper. what she had to say there, your reaction. And who would take exception with those things? But what I would say, it's taken an international spotlight on our country to prompt that response, because nothing had happened in the two and a half years since those recommendations were made. You know, I've got a long history of working around this topic. I know it inside out. And this, you know, it's like Groundhog Day for me all the time. Who could, you know, one of my arguments would be somebody who has to be told to report child abuse shouldn't be in a position of power or in a child protection area anyway because that is a moral responsibility you shouldn't need legislation

to force it through um you know these are more words that are in response to criticism there have been many opportunities for action the time is long overdue for action but i do hope we are going to see some um do i hear a note of optimism there well i always say i hope for the best but expect the worst because i have heard these same promises so many times um and once the public spotlight goes off this topic, it fades away and nothing happens. When I worked on the drama Three Girls, everybody was focusing on it.

I'm going back, you know, not far, eight, nine years now, it fades away and then it comes back as though it's a whole new subject. It's not. Victims and survivors have had their lives destroyed by this crime. Well, let's get into some of the specifics. Interesting that you talk about the international spotlight bringing this back to the fore. Instead, Professor Alexis Jay, as we heard her there, she says that the time has passed for a new national inquiry.

That's what some players within the international spotlight are asking for, as well as the Conservatives and the Reform Party. What do you feel about that issue? Would you like to see a new national inquiry? I think the first thing I would say is that Alexis Jay, she chaired the National Abuse Inquiry that covered many areas, one of which was grooming gangs. And that was a massively missed opportunity. It was 10 days, one victim was allowed to speak. People like me and Harriet Wisterich, Centre for Women's Justice, Parents Against Child Exploitation were all silenced. So I do not feel that they looked at the grooming gang issue. And I just interrupt you briefly, and I'll then get you to continue with your point. My understanding, listening to Professor Jay this morning

on the Today programme, is that they felt they had spoken far and wide with people. You're nodding your head no in reaction to that. Continue. Yeah, the National Abuse Inquiry looked at many areas. with people you're nodding your head no in reaction to that continue yeah the the national abuse inquiry looked at many areas you know lord janna um lambeth council church of england the the groom i mean the lord january inquiry got three weeks for one person then the organized network strand got nine days half a day of that was for one victim the other days were all for police officers social workers

council workers so Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Oxford all these towns and cities never even got a look in in that national abuse inquiry so I would say that that national abuse inquiry did not look at grooming gowns I feel it was sidelined and did not form. But I've been involved in other inquiries. But let me stop you there as well, just with that particular point. By saying that then, are you also pushing for, advocating for an inquiry into those areas again? Or for the first time as you would see it? I'm listening to the outcry from victims and survivors and I do know that that's what they're calling for. But my experience of inquiries are that they take a long time.

The question has to be, what is the public inquiry for? Who will lead it? What are the terms of reference? Are victims and survivors survivors voices going to be front and central and um we i would also argue um that we we fully know what this problem is and the time is for action um public inquiries are only as good as the people that are allowed to contribute to it and in the last one um the people that I say should have been centre of it were silenced. I'd be curious also for your thoughts on, you've used the word, the media uses the word, grooming and the term grooming gangs.

Some feel that that is not appropriate in the sense they might call for it to be rape gangs for example i'd be curious for your thoughts on that i think that's a more accurate description of what is going on you know my work in in my charity you know i hear and in the last 20 years the number of victims i've heard, it is brutal. You know, they're not being groomed. The grooming is the initial contact, making friends with a vulnerable child who is already suffering in life in many ways. it is rape and torture and lifelong consequences of trauma and feeling that they have been failed by a system that hasn't protected them. So I do think rape gangs are a better description of this kind of crime, which do occur in all parts of society.

But these are not grooming gangs. They are gangs whose purpose is to rape, abuse, exploit children who are already vulnerable. Maggie, you're staying with us. I'll come back to you on a couple more points. But I do want to bring in Ken MacDonald, who was Director of Public Prosecutions in England and Wales from 2003 to 2008.

Welcome, Ken. Your response to Yvette Cooper's introduction, as it will be for the Crime and Policing Bill, when it comes to making certain issues a crime, which Alexis Jay has been calling for for a couple of years. Well, I mean, I think what Yvette Cooper said in the House of Commons yesterday afternoon was a start, but it was a bare start. I mean, she's taken three of the 20 recommendations

from the report, which were made two years ago, nearly three years ago in 2022, and which have been ignored up until now. But she hasn't dealt with many other of the recommendations that were made, that there should be set up child protection authorities in England and Wales, a cabinet level minister for children, registration of care staff in children's homes, pre-screening of illegal images of children on the internet. So a burden on service providers there. I wonder what Elon Musk

would say about that. And age verification in relation to online services and social media platforms. So there's a lot of very chunky, meaty stuff in there that she has not responded to yet, which will be more controversial and which will engage the interests of some of the players, as we put it in this discussion, international players in the debate this week. So it's a bare start. It's very late in the day. And the government clearly must do more than this. What I would like her to have done yesterday is to set out a proper timeline for the consideration and implementation of these recommendations. We need to know which are accepted by the government, which are rejected, if they are rejected, why they're rejected,

and for those which are accepted, when they're going to be implemented and when we're going to see some change. I think there is cultural change on the ground. I think, I mean, partly because of the work done by people like Maggie, there is a change in culture amongst police and prosecutors, and that's important. But we need legislative change and we need more legislative change than Yvette Cooper announced yesterday. And my understanding, hearing this morning from the government is that they will not commit to a timeline at the moment. Why do you think Ken that it is so difficult

to implement sorry to step over you to implement some of those recommendations that you outline? Are there ones that are perhaps an easier path to implement than others, for example?

Well, I should have thought proper registration of care staff in children's homes and of care staff in young offenders, institutions and secure training centres is a no-brainer. I should have thought the creation of child protection authorities

is a no-brainer. I think it's past time when we should be dealing with age verification on the Internet. And I think pre-screening for illegal images of children, these are child abuse images available on the Internet, pre-screening by service providers to keep those off people's screens is beyond argument. Of course, it will cause controversy in areas where the government doesn't particularly want controversy. I've already said, I mean, I think I can predict what Elon Musk would say about that. That would be more examples of tyrannical government in his view.

But you don't think that the government is listening to Elon Musk, do you? Well, Elon Musk is, I mean, obviously, as you said, as Maggie has said, we've, we've had a focus, international focus put on this. I think that Elon Musk's interventions have been untethered and erratic. And I hope the government, well, I assume the government isn't listening to him. I mean, his description of Jess Phillips as a genocide rape apologist was shameful, although I don't suppose he is ashamed about it. And I think the government should treat anything he says

about this or any other issue with great caution. But I do think the government is aware now, as it may not have been two weeks ago, of public concern on this issue and that it's a serious issue

that has to be grasped now. Ken MacDonald, thank you very much. Let me turn back to Maggie Oliver. Maggie, you know, I want to pick up on something that you mentioned earlier when it came to public inquiries. You know, why are we doing them was one question you asked. And also, if it doesn't get to why this happens, why do you think this happens? What we have seen with child abuse and sexual exploitation specifically that you have looked at?

I've asked myself that question many times, but I cannot avoid the reality that by failing to get a grip of this for many years, we have allowed the conversation to go into corners, maybe extreme corners, that had we dealt with it, wouldn't have happened it's you know when I first spoke out I was fearful always have been accused of being a racist but I believe the law is there to prosecute child abusers wherever those abusers come from and the political correctness and the fear of being called a racist has meant that this subject has not been talked about. It's gone under the radar. And it is for reasons like that, that it allows extremists to hijack the conversation. You know, but that conversation, and Elon Musk bringing it into the

spotlight, has brought finally a little bit of action. I agree with everything your previous speaker has said, but it shouldn't have taken that to bring action. You know, the inquiry took seven years. We are another three years further on. It shouldn't take an international spotlight or a drama to bring attention to something which is life destroying. You mentioned potentially another inquiry may or may not be needed. Talking about the victims specifically, some of them do want an inquiry into certain areas. The argument has been from some that if in fact another inquiry was to start, it would delay or stop any implementation of the recommendations that there are there already, those 20 that we have spoken about.

Victims want accountability, they want justice and they want to be heard. And for me, that should sit front and centre of the whole of this debate. Maggie Oliver, thank you very much for coming on,

founder and chair of the Maggie Oliver Foundation. We also heard from Ken MacDonald, who was Director of Public Prosecutions in England and Wales from 2003 to 2008. A message came in while we were speaking. I gave evidence to the inquiry on

my childhood sexual abuse in the 60s and 70s in response to the widely advertised open call for victims and survivors to come forward. I named my abuser who is still alive but too infirm to prosecute. I felt well supported and it was one of the hardest things I've ever done.

It has given me some peace to know his name is now recorded when I was silenced when I disclosed it to someone in authority as a child. I feel deeply frustrated

that the inquiry's recommendations haven't been acted upon. Weaponising the issue for political purposes is deeply disrespectful to victims and survivors. Another inquiry

would only lead to further delays in action. Please, and of course we keep that name. purposes is deeply disrespectful to victims and survivors another inquiry would only lead to further delays in action please and of course we keep that name anonymous thank you for getting in touch 84844 if you would like to get in touch and also i should mention if you've been affected by any of the issues like our listener there um you can find links to help and support on the BBC Action Line. I want to turn to something that has no cure. An average of eight to ten years and 26 doctor's appointments to get a diagnosis. That is what can be in store for women who suffer from endometriosis. That's according to a Welsh government task force on the issue. But good news today that there is hope that an online tool

which allows women in Wales who may have endometriosis to report their symptoms and possibly lead to a quicker diagnosis. The condition causes cells that are similar to those found in the lining of the womb to grow elsewhere in the body. It can cause debilitating pain, fatigue, very heavy periods and can be associated with infertility as well. But according to the charity Endometriosis UK, it's the second most common gynaecological condition in the UK,

so affecting about one in 10 women. But it's now hoped that the symptom reporting tool, which has been trialled in Wales, could change that. Let us join Dr Robin Janowicz, a psychology lecturer specialising in reproductive health at Cardiff University, who helped create this tool, and Karen Lowe, who is endometriosis and is vice chair of the patient-led charity Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales. Welcome to you both. Let me start with you, Dr Jakowicz.

I mentioned some of the symptoms of endometriosis there, but why do you think it has taken so long, according to some of those stats, for women to get diagnosed? Absolutely. Good morning and thanks so much for having me. There's a lot of contributing factors that lead to those diagnostic delays, but some of the reasons include that the symptoms of endometriosis of things like period pain, pain with sexual activity are often normalized by friends, family, healthcare providers. So people don't always recognize that the symptoms are not normal and that healthcare might be useful or valuable. The symptoms can also be difficult to discuss. We talked about things like pain with sexual activity,

pain with urination or bowel movements. The symptoms of endometriosis can also be quite varied and also overlap with other conditions. So the symptoms of endometriosis can be mistaken for other conditions. Just a couple of the potential reasons for that diagnostic delay. And tell me about this reporting tool. Absolutely. So the tool is a free and user-friendly bilingual,

so available in Welsh and English, digital tool, that's for anyone who suspects that they experience endometriosis and would like to talk to their doctor about their symptoms. And so what sort of talk is through it? So you, is it a questionnaire basically that you're going through? Yeah, absolutely. So right now it's embedded within the broader endometriosis Cymru website, which is a resource that our team has developed that provides evidence-based information about what endometriosis is, what the process of getting a diagnosis is, and tips for living well with the condition. So you can find the tool on that website and you

can access it using either your phone or your computer. And how the tool works is you create an account and it'll ask you the first time you use it some questions about your background. So some risk factors for endometriosis, any past treatments or tests that you've tried. And then you can use the tool to record five key symptoms of endometriosis daily to generate a report. We recommend using it for about two months that summarises this information in a short report that you can then share with your doctor. And I mean, does, if the report comes and says likely endometriosis or points towards that, is there any guarantee that that doctor is going to listen to that report or look at that report? Absolutely. So I guess it's important to say that we created

this tool and this broader project is a co-produced tool. So that means we created it with all the key stakeholders who are involved in this process. So ourselves as researchers, but also individuals who experience endometriosis, healthcare providers, VPs and experts in endometriosis, because we wanted to make sure that this tool that we're creating addresses the issues that are important to women and providers and also works for them in practice. But I suppose what I'm asking is that does the woman then need to go to a specific doctor or she can just go to a regular GP and perhaps, and I'll put this in inverted commas, be taken more seriously than many women have told us they are when they sometimes go with

heavy periods, for example. Absolutely. That is the aim of the tool, that you could bring it to any provider and it would help you to communicate better with your doctor. Well, let me bring in Karen. Hi, Karen. You have endometriosis. I don't know if it's possible to describe theable, but a bit of insight. I think it's more living with a condition. It's something you can almost come to terms with when you know what you're dealing with. It's the process of getting diagnosed and not knowing what you're dealing with. Because like Robin say, we don't tend to know that that's not normal. We don't know when to seek help because everyone downplays it or it is thought that it was normal I've never heard of the term endometriosis or that painful period to a point where you're bedridden is not normal when I was growing up so you did you weren't able to get out of bed no like I had to take sick days off school I had to like I was quite young so I think the diagnostic delay is a lot of it is from when you recognize

symptoms it's already a progression of it and by the time you realize that and you go to seek help for it often a lot of GPs I've literally changed at least four GP surgeries in order to find someone who's going oh actually that's something wrong we should refer you to gynecologists but in those four GP surgery changes I've been told that I've got depression, anxiety and things that I now know I didn't have back then. It was because I was struggling with pain. I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't engage with my activity because of pain that was not managed by paracetamol or ibuprofen. But the doctors were like, well, can you not just keep trying? Like, can you not just get out like you can make it here? You can talk to me.

Why are you still making a fuss? That is very tough to go through um you've tried the tool i understand yeah how'd you find it how would you describe it because i've now have the actual diagnosis it's helped me to track my symptoms so that i could see how it's going and if you do it in a long enough time it allows you to generate reports like bi-monthly so that you see how your symptoms might have changed or any lifestyle changes you made might have worked or not worked so it's more reliable than just us going in our head like oh is the symptom improving is this not like am I is this lifestyle changes worked or not worked for me and I do think that the only thing I really wish it can be helped is that patients don't need to realize that patients shouldn't be the one to

realize they've got endometriosis this is something that should be provided and educated by from the GP or the healthcare providers like patients go to doctors to get a diagnosis. It's kind of going the other way around now where we are providing a tool to empower patients so that they feel more supported and more backed so that their symptoms are validated. I wish this tool could be promoted in a way so that more clinicians are aware of it.

So if they suspect it, rather than just stumbling the symptoms, ask the patient to just fill in this tool for two to three months and then bring it back to see if it is rather than going through this whole thing of emotional suffering. And instead of you having to try

and figure out a diagnosis to bring to your doctor, what about that, Dr. Robin? Absolutely, I agree. And now that the tool is available on the website, our team is working with different organisations and NHS groups to help share information about the tool widely,

both to people who suspect that they experience endometriosis, but also to healthcare providers as well. This is in Wales though. Do you expect it to be rolled out further? It certainly has value across the UK. So the information that the tool collects and the key symptoms that can be tracked over time

are the symptoms that are outlined in the NICE guidelines, which are evidence-based guidelines for healthcare professionals. So those guidelines are used certainly in Wales, but across the UK. Dr. Robin Jackiewicz, a psychology lecturer specialising in reproductive health at Cardiff University, who created that tool. And we also have Karen Lowe, who has endometriosis. She's vice chair of the patient-led charity, Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales. Thanks to you both. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Cricket next. The England and Wales Cricket Board, the ECB,

has been urged to boycott next month's Champions Trophy match against Afghanistan by a group of more than 160 politicians, including Nigel Farage, Jeremy Corbyn and Lord Kinnock. The England men's one day international, the ODI, they are due to face Afghanistan in Lahore on the 26th of February. But there are calls from Westminster for the ECB to refuse the fixture, taking a stand against the Taliban regime's ongoing assault on women's rights. By that, I mean speaking in public, walking in the park. There was the latest rule, you might have seen this, about seeking to ban windows in buildings overlooking areas used by Afghan women. Now, Afghanistan's own cricket team, a women's cricket team, was banned from playing three years ago. Many of those players are currently in exile in Australia after fleeing the country. I'm joined by Felix Jenkins, who's head of campaigns for Amnesty International.

Good to have you with us, Felix. This is getting quite a bit of attention. What's the latest we know on that particular match? Well, as far as we know, the match is still going to be going ahead. England, the ECB previously stated that they wouldn't currently hold a bilateral game against Afghanistan due to the policies of the Taliban. That was stated explicitly. However, this is part of a wider international tournament taking place in Pakistan. And as far as we know, the game is still going ahead.

The ECB have been pretty clear so far that that will be what's happening, although pressure is definitely growing with this letter from over 150 MPs. It's quite interesting, isn't it? Because it's not as if it's taking place in Afghanistan. I know it is the Afghan team. Have you come up across things like this before or aspects like this before when it comes to sports? Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of different issues around

sports. So obviously, there's kind of countries like Saudi Arabia using huge amounts of money to buy sport into their country to kind of create a positive image around you know around saudi arabia and to get people going to the country and to change the international reputation as you say this is slightly different because it isn't being bought in by by the government in afghanistan it's taking place internationally um and obviously england play all sorts of different countries all the time however the the starkness of the situation with a country like afghanistan where the women's cricket team have had to flee in exile, and yet the men are able to continue to play,

you know, to play international matches and to, you know, to gain all of the, you know, all the kudos and all of the attention that that brings. You know, it's really, it's not surprising that people are calling for a boycott. And, you know, we would be saying for anybody that's involved in cricket, anyone who's interested,

find out about the situation for women in Afghanistan, because it is truly dire. And for all of those involved with the game itself, you know, the players and the organisation and the ETB in particular, understand that situation and be prepared to speak publicly about it. But Amnesty is not calling for a boycott. Have I got that right? That's correct. So yeah, Amnesty doesn't, we don't advocate boycotts in almost any circumstances. Although we, it's a long established policy position of the organisation. However, we will be, we're very clear to support anybody who does call for a boycott and it is an effective campaigning tactic. So it's not something which we would ever criticise.

What we would say is... Sorry, Felix, before I let you continue, but why does Amnesty... I know it's a long-established position, as you say, but what is the reasoning behind it? I think the fact of boycotts is that they can be used in multiple different ways. And as a campaigning tactic

that can be used positively or negatively they're not one that amnesty has chosen to endorse as an international organization um that's interesting as well um but coming back to your point you do support those that may undertake a boycott absolutely yeah there's you know everybody has the right to freely express themselves and to use any tactics that are within international law to make a point like this. And we think that, from our perspective, a boycott isn't the main point. The point is that this is an opportunity to put pressure on Afghanistan and the Afghan government to make the point that the situation for women's rights in the country is utterly shocking and has to be remedied.

And really, we want to be making sure that anybody who is willing to kind of support and put that pressure, including ourselves, we do a lot of work targeting Afghanistan, calling for the government to make changes there, supporting human rights defenders are able to do so. So it's really important that this narrative around human rights and women's rights are part of this match and that the ECB is feeling that pressure. And what about Pakistan? I mean, does anybody put pressure on them because they are hosting? Yeah, absolutely. They should be, and I think Pakistan will be feeling this.

Whenever they host a game where Afghanistan are playing, they will be feeling that pressure. And there's cries internally from human rights defenders and human rights organisations, as well as coming from the international community. The ECB has condemned, they say, the treatment of women and girls in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime. They said, we acknowledge and respect the diverse perspectives on this global issue. We understand the concerns raised by those who believe that a boycott of men's cricket could inadvertently support the taliban's efforts to suppress freedoms and isolate afghan society it's crucial to recognize the importance of cricket as

a source of hope and positivity for many afghans including those displaced from the country what would amnesty say in relation to that well it's it's difficult to say whether or not you know i can't speak for for the people of afghanistan however you know 50 of the population there if they they may be people who absolutely love cricket and they are they are expressly forbidden from taking part in cricket or any other sport so even if there is some joy that's gained by some people the fact that the women the afghan women's team is in exile effectively they had to flee the country for you know potentially in fear of their lives and fear of of arrest and, you know, and persecution

just for, you know, for wanting to play cricket. The same thing with the Afghan football team. The fact that it may bring, you know, some joy to some people doesn't hide the fact that women are banned not only from, you know, playing cricket at the international level and their team has been disbanded, but just at the local level.

Any woman or girl who wants to take up sport in afghanistan now is entirely banned so you are calling for support for the afghan women's team how what you want people to do well in the context of this match it's really it's really important that anybody who's a cricket fan understands the situation for women in afghanistan and is prepared to speak out about it, to put pressure on the ECB, to put pressure on the Afghan government as much as is possible, and to centre and share the voices of those women cricketers who are no longer able to play the sport that they love. And just with the ECB, you say put pressure on them, but to do what? Well, send them messages encouraging them to put pressure on the Afghan authorities.

And if they think that they should support the boycott, then absolutely do that as well. So all leading to the boycott. If that's the most effective tactic that people want to support, then definitely. Felix Jenkins, thanks for joining us. Head of Campaigns for Amnesty International. We keep an eye on that match, the one-day international. 26th of February is when it's scheduled in Lahore in Pakistan. You can text WOMENZAR on 84844.

Lucy Lawless, let us turn to her. She's best known for playing Xena, Warrior Princess. Well, she brings us the story of another fearless woman. In her directorial debut, Never Look Away, she explores Margaret Moth. Now, this was a war zone camera woman for CNN. She was covering conflicts from the liberation of Kuwait in the

early 90s to the Lebanon War in the mid-2000s. And Margaret Moth spent her career showcasing the true horrors of war. She was armed with a camera and a fearless, I'm trying to think of some other words, attitude. Really quite something.

I loved watching this film. Her life, although I have to say the way she lived her life, it almost came at the cost of her own. Because when she was in Sarajevo during the Bosnian War, this is back in 92, a sniper's bullet struck her jaw. She actually recovered from this horrific injury and she went right back out into war zones because she said these stories have to be told. But what sort of person walks straight ahead into gunfire like Margaret Moth did?

Well, I sat down with Lucy Lawless and I started by asking her a little more about the sort of person that Margaret was. so highly unusual, transgressive personality who came from New Zealand like myself, but went on to become a real life warrior princess. And I was really transfixed by this woman, like what enabled her to face death in the way that she did. And what I found was a woman with extremely unusual relationships, a slew of unusual relationships. And until I met the family, I couldn't figure out what was at the heart of her. But I came to find out that at the heart of her, there was a highly, highly pitiless and emotionally neglectful childhood. And that became her superpower. Let's talk about what people met when they met Margaret Moth. I should

say she changed her name, right? I mean, it's quite a captivating name as well. But she changed that at quite a young age. Well, I think she was well into her 20s by then. She really eschewed everything to do with her father, who represented toxic masculinity, what we now call toxic masculinity. So yeah, she changed her name and became this, I want to say, almost a construct. You know, she constructed herself in sort of retaliation or in reaction to everything that she had come from. New Zealand in the 1970s was quite misogynistic. She experienced a lot of it and she wanted everything else that the world had to offer. And she went for it.

And let's talk about her appearance, because that might be the first thing that many people encountered. This jet black hair, kind of spiky, the black combat trousers, the black combat boots, the dark eye makeup. Also, sex and drugs were part of the package, I think. A little bit punk. A lot punk. A lot punk. She was a lot punk. Yeah.

She loved punk music. Hardcore English, New Zealand punk, went to America, got into the punk scene then. People experienced her as an extremely intimidating, charismatic presence. Even Christiane Amanpour said she was intimidated by Margaret. She was New Zealand's first news camera woman. Australasians, actually. Oh, OK, yeah.

So quite a path to walk. And her life is extraordinary, as we see in your documentary. How did you come across her? When I first got the email from her best friend, Joe Duran, who's also in the film, um, my mind cast back to 1992, when New Zealand was transfixed by this CNN news report that a New Zealand camera woman had had her face blown off by a sniper in Sarajevo and was thought not likely to survive. So everything that I knew about Margaret had to have come in and around that report that week, and I hadn't thought about her again since. So I got the email and I was just possessed by I know not what to write back immediately, within 90 seconds of getting it,

saying, yes, I will find the money. I will find the producers. This film has to be told. And secretly I was really terrified that a thousand other people would have got the same form letter and would want to make it before me and I could not possibly allow that but I pushed send and then was really horrified at what I'd done because I had never I mean I wasn't qualified to make these promises I'd never done it before I didn't know what I was talking about but like I, something possessed me and I really feel like the spirit of Margaret picked me up by the scruff of my neck and booted me through the directing door.

And she and Joe utterly changed my life. I think your documentary, when I was watching her, there is the before and the after Sarajevo. And we meet this wild woman who was like, I've talked about some aspects of her. She was also a skydiver as if there weren't enough risks in life, although she wouldn't see it that way. She had decided at a young age to be sterilized. She was very clear about not wanting children. Yeah, that's that's an illness in the family kind of thing that Just this horrifying lack of nurturance that goes back generations. Neglect is the worst of all abuse to heal from. Then she went through this horrific episode where she was shot in Sarajevo. But I think really her strength and resilience showed from that, you know, numerous surgeries, difficult to speak, to eat, all these

things that she went through. I was just amazed by her resilience at being able to get back out in an industry that is already very difficult. I mean, she went back to being a war correspondent as a camera woman. Yeah, that's the inspirational aspect to her that if she went on to achieve so much when so much had been ripped away from her, who are we not to reach that bit higher for what we feel we're capable of achieving, you know, so she's very inspiring in that way. Yeah, she was very transgressive and very hungry for everything that wasn't Whanganui, New Zealand 1976. So she was going to go and eat life. And she continued to do that. Once she healed from this horrifying ordeal after 25 operations, she continued to just eat life, everything she could

possibly cram in. Actually, she lived for a sort of a higher purpose after the injury. It was quite redemptive in a way. But a sort of byline of the film could be how to face death with poise and equanimity, you know, because when death finally came for her, she faced it with such courage and almost a neutrality. She was going to experience every single thing that her physical body would experience through that process, even of dying.

I did read somewhere, Lucy, tell me if this is correct or not, that you thought it might be an easy story to sell in the sense of Lucy Lawless, Margaret Moss, one played a warrior princess on TV, one was a warrior princess in real life. Yeah, well, you kind of need a hook when you're, you know, when you're pitching anything, you've got to have something that's hooky. And I'll shamelessly use anything that might work and see what sticks, you know, and not to be cynical, but I knew that that would work. One thing before I let you go, I was fascinated in the way you used dioramas

in the filming of it. Just to try and describe it to our listeners, at some of the parts that happened, be it in Sarajevo, in a car, I'm almost looking at a cutout. Would that be fair? How would you describe it, Lucy? They're large-scale diorama, like you can stand on them

and move the little people around and all that. But we made those because when you, the problem with the documentary is what do you use for images? And, of course, when Margaret is driving to work in the back of the van, they're not rolling the camera at the moment when she gets shot. So what are you going to use for images to tell that story? And we were like, oh, should we animate it? And, well, that's not new, that's not fresh,

and it's really expensive and takes a long time. Shall we get actors and do recreations? Well, that ain't fresh and takes a lot of money and take a long time. And CGI, absolutely cannot afford it. The diorama. And I went, oh, that's so old. It's fresh again because I'm a kid of the 70s. We made diorama at school.

Like everybody my age, if you're in your 50s, you probably got shoe boxes from your parents' cupboard and made a diorama of Winnie the Pooh or whatever, some book report, right? You'd make diorama. All of that stuff comes out of my childhood. Also, budgetary constraints are what forces style. And they did talk about some of her friends, colleagues,

that she didn't sleep, she didn't eat, in various work situations as well. And they used to wonder, how did she keep going? So I can totally understand the fascination with her. But I am wondering for you, what was it like directing this time instead of acting? Oh, it's a heady brew directing. You know, I've always loved acting because it's like being in free fall.

When you've done all your homework, when they say action, no one can touch you. The trick is to have zero control. You know, I hate getting up at 4am to go and sit in a makeup chair, getting ready for acting. That is one of my least favourite things to do, even though I love my crew. But I would get up at 4am to go and direct any windy, rainy, freezing morning with directing. You're an octopus. You've got control of all the plates are spinning and it's very exciting.

And once you get used to having that kind of say-so about every single aspect of the film, you just want to keep going. So I'm hustling like a mad thing to get the next thing going. So I'm not going to see you as Xena Princess Warrior anymore? I don't think so. But in your dreams, maybe. Lucy Lawless there

and her film Never Look Away is available on digital platforms now all about the incredible Margaret Moth. Dioramus, you were saying there, they told part of the story. It is very creative. It kind of brings you there. But I did watch another short film last night.

It was from the BBC's 100 Women with BBC Eye. They've released a 14-minute animation narrated by Nazanin Zaghari-Radcliffe, who you will remember was imprisoned in Iran. This film is about three women in Evin Prison there. It's a really moving portrayal of what happens in Evin women's prison. Following the

Women, Life and Freedom protests in 2022, there were many women that were arrested that were sent to this notorious place. I'm joined now by BBC Persian reporter Burhan Abbasi. Also, we have Medea Gulru, who's a former Evin prisoner who now lives in Sweden.

Welcome to you both. Eberran with me in studio. I found looking at these sketches of the women and the life that they had in Evin prison very moving. I think when they talk about being naked, for example, and the guards guards being there the fact that it's a little sketch i don't know it puts across so bluntly or so frankly uh the fear that the women may have in that prison um what do we know about evan prison at the moment? Evin Prison is notorious for its brutality against political prisoners. And as you said, there have been documented cases of mistreatment, lengthy solitary confinement, women being sexually harassed

whilst being physically inspected upon admission to the prison. And also beatings and rape. Just a few months ago, Nobel Peace Laureate Nargis Mohammadi was violently beaten up by prison guards for staging a protest against capital punishment in the prison courtyard. And there have been documented cases of prisoners being raped and sexually abused to make false confessions. But it is also a place where women have shown unimaginable bravery and defiance. Every Tuesday, the stage protest against capital punishment on the anniversary of the killing in custody of Mahsa Amini. They protested in the prison courtyard,

setting their headscarves on fire and also... And this happens in the prison, which is remarkable. I want to bring in Medea here, however, because you were imprisoned there a number of times just over 10 years ago. What was it, Medea? Why were you imprisoned? What was the reason they gave? Yes, I was arrested several times,

but the first time was when I was a student activist and just promote human rights and women rights and just the freedom of speech in university and so for that effort I was education banned and after that I was arrested because of shootings and so on in university. So like political activism. But I'm wondering, you were put in solitary confinement there for two months. How do you get through something like that? A solitary cell?

Yes. Honestly, it's like a fresh wound until now. I can't forget it. And it's not just about me, but everybody. When you are in the security prison, that is Do Aleph or Divisto Noh that belong to IRGC service,

and you don't allow to visit or call with your lawyer, your family, your family don't know where are you. And so there is no window, there is no brightness. And even they took out my ring even because they think maybe even I can survive myself and my fling with my ring. You don't have anything that belongs to you and all time you are on the questionary for a long time for maybe 10, 12 hours a day.

You just froze for one moment there. But what do you do all day? Because all you have is your mind, right? To try and keep you sane. how do you get through the day so in solitary cell a passing time is really difficult because you you cannot understand what's the time you cannot recognize it's the morning or it's uh um noon or it's night, just according to the adhan, that is the spread all over the time in prison, you can find so...

It's adhan morning pray, it's for noon pray or something like that. That's why you cannot deal with the time in solitary cell. But in public prison, the best thing that you can do is reading book, honestly. Of course, security service doesn't let a lot, all kinds of books, but about novels, especially long novels, it's the best time for reading and knitting and making crafts takes lots of time.

The only thing you can give you as a gift to your friends and family is knitting and make something but handmade. So you can find somewhere to spend time in a public prison but in solitary cell, no. Just you can think and think

and think. You talk about knitting there. I know things were smuggled out from the prison in knitted dolls that you had. They've stopped knitting, I believe, in the prisons now, or knitting those particular dolls because it was a way to get messages out to others on

the outside. But, Brian, in our last minute or so, you know, I see a story this morning about a woman who was accosted by a cleric in a Tehran airport, I believe. She wasn't wearing a headscarf. She took his turban off in this clash and put it on herself. I can see it's going crazy on social media.

How do you see the position of women right now in Iran? We've talked about the horrific situation within Evin Prison, but in society at large. This campaign of civil disobedience continues in Iran and it seems to be stronger than ever. The mass protests have died down following the 2022 uprising but because of the regime's brutality, because hundreds of people were killed and tens of thousands were arrested, but the campaign of civil disobedience continues and many women refuse to wear the health scarf in public and by doing so they risk being arrested,

flogged, tortured, losing their jobs. And potentially going to Evin Prison, just in our last 20 seconds. Where do they get that courage from? Exactly. I mean, I grew up in Iran. I went to university and worked in Iran and I'm in awe of the women

who show such bravery in the face of the regime's brutality. Baran Abassi, BBC Persian reporter and Madhia Gulru, a former Evin prisoner who now lives in Sweden. Thank you both so much. We're going to talk about Norway and women on boards tomorrow

and lots of you getting in touch, of course, also about our first item on grooming gangs. Somebody looking for the recommendations of the jail report to be implemented and then followed by a further inquiry. We'll talk more tomorrow on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

I'm Michael Gove and in a new series for Radio 4, I'll be discussing how to survive politics. I'll be joined by fellow politicians to discuss how politics really works. It is only because of your principles that it is worthwhile. We'll be talking about how to build alliances. You're all trying to make the world a better place and you have quite a lot in common. How to cope with being unpopular and how to stick to your principles when things get tough. Faith, family and friends are very important. Has there been a time when you felt betrayed? Do you think you've ever done the betraying?

Surviving Politics with me, Michael Gove. Find it on BBC Sounds in the Politically feed. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.