Woman's Hour - Childcare debt, Big boobs, Succession

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

As figures show more than a third of parents are using debt to pay for childcare, Nuala will be meeting two women who’ve gone deep into the red to pay nursery fees in order to maintain a career and discussing whether the financial risk has been worth it.The government has announced that it is set to close what it calls an ‘unacceptable’ loophole which allows e-cigarettes to be given to teenagers - a ban on nicotine free products to under 18s is also being considered. Research by NHS Digital shows that one in five 15-year-old girls use electronic cigarettes, which is 7% higher than boys of the same age. Nuala is joined by Linda Bauld, Professor of Public Health at Edinburgh University as well as Leanne McGuire, the mother of a teenager who was addicted to vaping at 15 and Rob Pavey, the Headteacher at a secondary school in Oxford to discuss.Writer and Podcaster Jackie Adedeji speaks to Nuala about her new Channel 4 documentary UNTOLD: My Big Boobs, a look into the impacts of having big boobs and the rise in breast reduction surgery. Sarah Ditum also joins to discuss the cultural trends of breasts through the years.Succession has ended after four dramatic seasons. It has been called ‘the greatest TV show ever made.’ The satirical dark comedy-drama about power, politics and a family dynasty followed the highly dysfunctional Roy family. The show might be a fantastic snapshot into the lives of the top 1% but it has also produced some incredible female characters. Nuala hears more about the women in Succession from comedian Sara Barron, who co-hosts Firecrotch and Normcore: a Succession Podcast, and Journalist Laura Martin.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

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Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. That loophole allowing retailers to give free vape samples to children, it's set to be closed. These are under government plans. They want to curb the use of vapes among young people. But it is just one part of the story of vapes and their popularity. So we're going to be speaking to a professor of public health

about just how concerned you should be about the health effects and also to a mum whose daughter was addicted to vaping. So that's coming up in just a couple of minutes. Looking back today, tonight. Succession, are you a fan? Are you a super fan? Well, I am. I've been unwaveringly committed

for a long time now. And just as the Sopranos before it, I'm really only interested in the women in that show. This time, instead of Carmella, I'm smitten with Shiv. That is Siobhan, one, just one,

of the many fantastic female characters that played a role in the dynastic, dysfunctional family and friends of Logan Roy. So we're going to get into those characters this hour as well. I also want your thoughts on the following, some of you already getting in touch on this, because many of you listening will know that having big breasts can be a pain and in more ways than one so it could be back or neck stiffness it could be brass strap groove indentations they can be physically challenging but there can also be a lot of unwanted sexual attention attention excuse me and harassment for example so we're going to hear in particular about the rise in women paying for

breast reduction surgery privately. We'll talk about the reasons that they're doing it. And it's often, did you know, to the tune of about £9,000. So we're going to take a look at that and also at the place of breasts in our cultural history. So to get in touch like Jill did, she's already got in touch, she's 63 and has had a breast reduction surgery six months ago. You can text the programme 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through

our website and indeed for WhatsApp or a voice note, that number is 03700 100444. Also today, childcare. You might know that the UK is one of the most expensive countries in the world for childcare. But if you have kids

and you want to work outside the home, is it worth going into debt to pay for it? Maybe you're hoping your career will progress and maybe your salary with that. Well, we're going to hear from two women who took that path, but now have differing opinions

on whether it's in fact the way to go. So stay with us for all of those conversations that are coming up. But let me begin with vaping, just to tell you again that the government, they've announced they're set to close. They call it an unacceptable loophole, which allows e-cigarettes to be given away to teenagers,

while also looking into the rules around the sale of nicotine-free products to under 18s. You might have seen that the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, has said he's worried about the colourful marketing and also the risk posed to his two own daughters, who are aged 10 and 12. We do know that research by NHS Digital shows that one in five 15-year-old girls use electronic cigarettes, seven percentage points higher than

boys of the same age. And in a moment, I'll speak to a parent whose daughter was addicted to vaping and also to a head teacher who's trying to get control of vaping in his school. But first, let's listen to Linda Bald. She's Professor of Public Health at Edinburgh University, an expert in this field. And I asked her if vapes are dangerous. They're not safe. They're not risk-free. I think we can look at absolute and relative risk.

So relative risk, the comparison is always going to be smoking. And in that case, vaping is always going to be smoking. And in that case, vaping is significantly less harmful than smoking. And we know that from multiple studies, both in humans and in the lab. And that's just because smoking is so uniquely harmful. In absolute terms, of course, vapes have risks. And the risks that we're aware of are related to several components. The first thing is nicotine, which in itself is not harmful to health. We prescribe it to pregnant women who smoke, to people with cardiovascular conditions in the form of nicotine replacement therapy. But it is addictive. So it's the nicotine, which means you want to use the product and you keep using it. And you can have nicotine withdrawal, which for a young person can be very disruptive. They're craving their vape, they can't

concentrate, they feel agitated and worried. Very bad news in education or work settings. In terms of other constituents, there are toxicants and carcinogens in vaping products, in the e-liquid, in the vapor vapor at lower levels than in smoking, but not zero. And chronic exposure over a long period would result in some health harms from that. Definitely? Well, we actually just don't have decades of data. We don't have decades of data. We do know that some of the constituents are respiratory irritants. And we have seen young people who've had lung health

effects from vaping small numbers but if you do that over many years you know there may well be copd or even lung cancer risk again at a very low level we just don't know that it's better to be safe than to be sorry and with copd that's chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. And forgive me because I was interrupting you there, but you were saying lungs and also? So lungs, there may be other, the cardiovascular system, for example, might be affected by some of the constituents in vaping. We see that in some lab-based studies. Again, we just don't have the longer term data. So the bottom line for us is what we want is for smokers to quit. For them, vaping is a good option. But for people who've never smoked,

including teenagers, why expose yourself to something that may have unknown risks in the future? Well, I suppose putting my head into that perhaps of a teenager is maybe because it's something kind of cool to do or is it yeah it has the appearance of being cool for certain people so how do you stop that young people try loads of things you know i'm the mom of uh well they're in their early 20s now one of them is but you know we all get that it's absolutely right and we were all like that in our youth you know young people are drinking they're trying different things of course so they're going to try vaping when you look at the surveys of teenagers the number one reason for vaping is to give it a try and then some people like the flavors their

friends are doing it but i think the challenge for us in the uk is that these products are widely available they're incredibly cheap and they are marketed. And of course, those things, in addition to just trying stuff, are going to enhance the appeal. Is there a gender angle to this? I was reading that it appears to be teenage girls that are picking up an e-cigarette at a faster rate than boys. We're seeing more experimentation in girls. But when you look at regular use, it's a bit more like smoking. It tends to be a little bit higher in young men. And in fact, in terms of vaping and teenagers generally, only about 25, 26 percent of regular vapers are never smokers. Most of them are teens who already smoke. But when you get to the experimentation category, where there's a lot of young women, young girls, over around two thirds of those are never smokers, the ones giving it a try. So we need to be careful. Let's also talk about regulated and unregulated vapes. What's happening there and what's the difference? So we introduced a regulatory framework in 2016, which actually is pretty comprehensive, but there are loopholes. And with any regulation and any age-restricted products, some irresponsible manufacturers and retailers want to get around it.

So we've got an illicit trade. It's not huge, but it's there. There was a high-profile story recently about lead, nickel and chromium being found in vapes. The problem with age-restricted products, whether it be other things that kids are not supposed to buy, you don't actually know what you're using. And if you get that product from a friend or somebody else buys it for you, it could be anything. And so therefore illicit trade is a concern and you need different measures to try and address that, including through customs, border force, but also, as we've heard announced today, giving trading standards additional support and powers to make sure that they're getting on top of that trade. Because what the news was today is that, in fact,

those free samples, there's this loophole that children basically can be given free samples because they're not selling them to people that are underage. So they're trying to close that loophole. Do you think that will really help? I think that's a pretty minor measure. But just to explain it, the reason why the free sample kind of exemption is there is because in the early days of vapes, again, we were trying to get smokers to use them. So the idea of a smoker wandering into a vape shop and being able to try great but unfortunately you know the chickens have

come home to roost so that's a minor measure I think more support for trading standards so in terms of where young people buy a vape the most common venue is a corner shop a news agent so we need to take some action on that. You have said, though, that you don't think they should be banned. And I know you have laid out that we don't know the full extent of how harmful they are. But you have outlined quite a few. Why is that not the way to go? Because, you know, do young kids ever need to pick up a vape?

Well, let's think about the market. So there is a category of products, disposable vapes. I won't name the brand names. Everybody sees them thrown in the street now. That's what young people are using. 68% of young people are using a disposable compared, and that's this year, compared to 7% in 2021. So the market has been fundamentally transformed by this category. I think we need to increase the price of that category quite significantly. Price is a major deterrent to young people. You can buy one

of these for $1.99. I think there's something fundamentally wrong with that. The broader category of vaping products, you know, the tanks, the things that smokers use to try and quit, I don't think that we should ban those because I've been doing the trials and I know they work for smokers. So it is about trying to be nimble and strike a balance. Let's not have prohibition because that has other consequences,

but let's get the regulatory framework stronger and more nuanced than it currently is. Professor Bald there, and she spoke about the trading standards. Well, Kate Pike is the lead officer for vaping at the professional organisation, the Chartered Trading Standards Institute.

She spoke to the Today programme and welcomed the government's plan, but said changes to the colourful packaging should also be considered. How can we make these products less attractive to children? And there's a call for evidence open at the moment. And we're hoping that many people will be submitting ideas to that call for evidence to enable products to become less attractive to children. of these products in store. We need to be looking at the promotion, particularly on social media, and how to ensure that children aren't attracted to these products just to give it a go, which is the main concern at the moment.

Which we're hearing particularly with girls, right, from Professor Bald. Well, the numbers of young teenagers who smoke tobacco cigarettes instead, it's hit a record low. Fewer than 12% of secondary school students haven't ever smoked a cigarette in 2021. But in place, the number of young teenagers vaping is at a record high. I want to bring in two people who know a lot about vaping among teens.

One is Leanne McGuire, the mother of a teenage daughter who was addicted to vaping when she was 15. Good morning, Leanne. Good morning. And we also have Rob Pavey, who is the headteacher at Cheney School, a secondary school in Oxford. Welcome, Rob. Good morning. You know, I'm just seeing already

8-4, 8-4-4 people getting in touch on vaping. And I'll get into some of the comments in just a moment. But Leanne, I want to start with you. Tell us what happened to your daughter. I said she was addicted to vaping at 15. Yeah well that was her words to me so that was last year. She started, she turned 16 January and as part of my volunteer role I sit on a city-wide committee in Glasgow

and this is something that we've spoken about for a couple of years now about vaping. So I was quite surprised when my daughter, well, first of all, I caught her out. It was clearly being hidden. Thankfully, I was in a fortunate position that I know what these, what the disposable vapes look like. I knew what to look out for, etc. And I suspected and I found out. Can I stop you for one second and forgive me for jumping on what do they look like for those parents that don't know? Yeah so that's a good point they look like highlighters really I mean if you saw them

sitting on your child's desk at home you probably wouldn't blink an eyelid you would you would come in and walk past and just think it's a highlighter um a lot of these small disposable ones are so easy to conceal and actually I mean when I eventually did search my daughter's room um after finding this out and having a chat with and she said she was addicted I found over 15 like hidden within her room because they are so small they can be easily concealed so yeah I was quite taken aback when she said when we found out that she was vaping and this is where our group has tried to campaign for more education for young people and parents because the two things that my daughter said to me was one there's no nicotine in them. That was the very first thing, which I nearly fell off my chair when she said that.

And then two, she turned around and says to me that she was addicted to them. It's the habit of lifting them up, sucking on them. She felt that they eased her signs of anxiety. So straight away, that was really concerning to me. And what about that point that professor bald brought up that girls are more likely to experiment what do you think about that um i mean i think certainly the the reports that i've heard again this is not from my daughter but

through my group the reports i've heard is that some young girls are using them as an appetite suppressant some of them are using the colours to match their outfits. So I suppose I can see why that would maybe be more attractive to young girls where they maybe match them with nail polish and outfits and it's like a bit of a trend. But certainly I don't think we need to lean back and think this is more of an issue with young girls. I think it's an issue with young teens and young children. I mean, in Glasgow, we're hearing reports as young as primary five. So that's around 10 years old vaping.

So I think it goes straight back to that marketing point that Linda brought up. And I know that a lot of the vape companies hate it when we bring it back to that point. But the fact is, what grown man or adult is sucking on a blueberry, raspberry, ripple vape that's bright pink? Very few, I'm sure. I'll go 84844 if you are that person, get in touch. But, you know, you bring up so much that I want to ask you. How did your daughter, obviously admitted to it, said she was addicted. And how did she stop then?

Is it any different to stopping smoking, do you think, which many of us will have had experience personally or of a loved one doing it? It's very difficult. So, I mean, at the moment I'm saying that she has stopped, but I say that with quite trepidation because at the moment she's on study leave so she's not at school she's out doing her volunteering so she's not around that peer group that are entirely doing it we had periods from last October until now where she would stop and then the minute she was kind of back into her peer group she would start again now we did um on a regular visit to the GP about something else,

I did ask my GP, what do we do in this situation? If she's saying she's addicted to it, how do I get her off it? What's the alternative, et cetera? And the GP turned around and said, there is no alternative because vapes are seen as an alternative to tobacco smoking. There's no alternative to vape smoking. So I think, again, that's the challenge that you're up against as a parent, is that how do you get your child out of this vicious circle

where they're OK when they're at home, they can maybe step away from it, they can listen to you, they understand, don't go near it, but then the minute they're back in that peer group and everybody around about them is doing it a 15 year old is not going to have the self-control that some adults have and that's the challenge as a parent that you're up against it's almost like fighting a losing battle. I want to turn to you Rob we've heard Leanne and her daughter's story how much of a problem do you

think it is? Well, it's certainly a problem. The difficulty is, of course, it's much less visible or you can't smell it as much, rather more to the point with cigarettes. You can detect it, either as a parent or as a teacher, because you can smell it on clothes, you can smell it in buildings. But vapes, you know, there's a certain kind of fruity aroma. But is that just an air freshener or is that a vape? It's much harder to detect. And like Leanne said, they're very, very small and they do look like highlighters. I was just looking up actually before I came to speak to you, you know, can you detect electronic cigarettes or vapes? And there are some systems, right,

that hotels can have that will detect it that's different from a smoke alarm. Do you have them in schools? So we don't. I've heard of some schools that have installed them and we're considering trialling a couple in a couple of locations. I don't know, to be honest, how well they work

because, after all, it's water vapour and I don't quite know how sensitive they need to be or how effective they are. But we're considering trialling one in the sixth form toilets, it has to be said. It's always the sixth form toilets, isn't it?

Time immemorial where everything goes down. But when it comes to uh the issues i think that leanne was outlining for her daughter is it something that kids have come to their teachers about worried about addiction to vaping or uh worried about using them no not much not yet um we've we've had a sort sort of a halcyon few years where the cigarette smoking has dropped off a cliff. There's almost none of it that comes to light in school. And now vape smoking is picking up. I don't think there's yet the concern that there probably should be, either with parents or with teenagers, about the possible harms it's doing. So we're not seeing yet many people coming forward. We do find them, either that drop out of people's bags or when we have cause to check someone's bag, we do find them and we do take, you know, appropriate action at that point, including informing parents.

Do you get detention or anything is there uh well i mean the first thing is is is telling mum and dad that that's that's the that's the main thing um and we have a very effective thing of um a uh uh an hour's worth of um public health information with mrs conway that's extremely effective at deterring almost everything um plus detentions as necessary. And if someone is trying to sell them, which we have found someone recently doing that,

then we have suspended a couple of people for that. But that is very bad. Sorry to interrupt you. I'm just seeing so many comments coming in. Let's go through some of them together. I'm a secondary school teacher and worried about the widespread

use of vapes by teens. Are parents, this is a question, are parents regularly searching bags so schools don't have to? The sweet flavours dupe parents into thinking their kids have a new body spray. It's naive or neglectful of parents not to investigate. Leanne, of course, talked about going through the bags and you talked, Rob, only going through them if it's necessary, really looking for something else, I think I detected. Yeah, absolutely. We wouldn't want to be in a position where we're doing regular routine searches. That's very heavy handed. We're not a police state. We're a school.

But I think this is this conversation is very important because it is when parents and schools are saying the same thing. And when there's sensible appropriate action, as your first speaker said, from trading standards and so on, then we can get on top of this. I mean, this is, you know, teenagers don't have a great track record for listening to what their teachers say on things like this. But when parents and schools and official action on things like the marketing and like Leanne says, strawberry, blueberry, bubblegum nonsense. Is that really aimed at adults?

Then it can be reduced. There is another comment coming in in relation to that, Rob and Leanne. Just ban the disposable ones and only make the other type available by prescription. The disposable ones are so obviously designed to attract kids, bright colours like pens, sweet flavours. It's blatant profiteering. Grown-ups, government just admit it and act now, not in a few

months or next year. Get real. Another one, also angry, do officials really think that vapes are a device to stop smoking? It's a new product entirely. If it's a medical product, it should be sold to chemists, so kind of come to the prescription angle again. Any research

into how many users vape who have never smoked? I know my first guest has been looking at that and there are high numbers. It has ended up being a product used by people that it wasn't intentionally, well that some say it wasn't intentionally designed for.

I need to couch my words there. But that does bring up, of course, the government actions today, talking about closing that loophole. Would you like to see it go further, Leanne? Yeah, I mean, certainly in Scotland we now have, I think we're sitting at 22, councils have called on Scottish government for a ban on disposable e-cigarettes. Because what we need to, I know the main point of conversation just now is with vaping, but the disposables have a really detrimental impact on our environment. There are pets choking on them out of parks.

There are young toddlers that we're getting reports of at our group, picking them up in parks and sucking on them out of packs. There are young toddlers that we're getting reports of at our group picking them up in packs and sucking on them. So there's a number of risks involved in particularly disposable vapes. And yes, I would like to see it go further. Here's another one. And you alluded to this as well, Leanne. This is from Kate.

She says, as a mother of a 14-year-old boy who claimed to be addicted to vaping, it's important to recognise that another reason young people may continue to use vapes after the first experimental experience is that they believe it can alleviate anxiety. The motivations then shift from the initial wanting to be cool or enjoy

the flavour and colourful packaging. My son has now quit after a period of gradually reducing usage over a number of months. It's an interesting one. You mentioned it already, Leanne. Let me go back to you, Rob. I mean, what about anxiety in teenagers and vaping? Is that something that teachers are talking about? I can see how that works. I can see that there's a lot of sense in that. Yes. I'm not sure it's come up as a prime motivator,

but I can definitely see how some teams, particularly with exams coming up and so on and so forth and various other social anxieties and social media and so on that we're all familiar with, I can see how that would fit. It's not surfaced as the main reason yet. I do think, like Leanne said, the peer pressure thing and the attractive packaging and so on and so forth

is much more of a factor at the minute. Really interesting. They continue to come in. One more from Michelle. It seems to be like the same problem we had previously with so-called Alco Pops. Lots of sugary sweet concoctions

designed to appeal to youngsters. I can't recall they were banned, but they seem to disappear after a while. Yeah, it might be worth following up on that. Rob and Leanne, thank you both so much for speaking to us this morning about vaping, as indeed the government has intends to close that loophole that was giving out free vapes to children.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Lots of you getting in touch on my next topic as well. Big boobs. Have you got them? Do you like them? Love them? Hate them? Well, they have been part of our cultural landscape,

particularly in certain eras, I think, and certain celebrities, I think it's fair to say. I'm thinking of like Barbara Windsor, maybe in the Carry On films, or Sam Fox, remember her and Page Three Girls in the 1980s, then Katie Price or the Kardashians in later years. But big breasts, if you have them, you'll know they don't usually come without some issues. At times, that might be physical, neck or shoulder pain, for example,

or it might be societal, others treating you differently because of the size of your chest. Our next guest is a writer and podcaster. Jackie Adedeji has spent much of her career promoting positive attitudes towards women's bodies, as well as exploring people's relationships with their breasts on her podcast, Boob Share.

And in her new Channel 4 Untold documentary, My Big Boobs, Jackie takes a look at the negative impacts that big boobs can have on your life and also those navigating breast reduction surgery and chatting as well to women who just love their boobs and, you know, talk about those reasons. Well, we're also joined by Sarah Dightam to discuss the cultural history of breasts and their place in society. You're both so welcome. Thank you for having us. Already, as I go down the comments that are coming in, I'm so struck by some of the issues coming in.

I had mentioned one lady who got in touch just at the very beginning of the show. Her name is Jill. I just want to read this to set it up. She says, good morning. I had a breast reduction six months ago going from a J to a double D cup. I'm 63 and I thought about it for a decade. My breasts became bigger after children and breastfeeding. And no matter how much I tried fitness and weight loss, they just seemed to get bigger. Eventually, it was more psychological and physical. I felt miserable, looked overweight, struggled to find the right clothes.

So I paid for the surgery with the recommended surgeon. I did have some complications, haematoma and infection. But despite this, I'm now reaping the benefits, loving my new size, also feeling lighter by five pounds off my chest and trying new clothes. It's been life changing for me. Jill, thanks so much for getting in touch. 84844. Let me turn to you, Jackie, and welcome.

Thank you. I watched your documentary. I loved it. I loved meeting your family in it. You're a pastor's daughter, which comes up pretty early in it because we're looking at these photographs. Tell our listeners what your relationship was like with your body as you developed breasts. As many of my listeners are telling me, almost overnight.

Sure. So I woke up one summer when I was 11 years old and I literally had double F chest and my life changed overnight. I was a child and I became a woman. I was In people, certain people's eyes. Yes, yes. So I was sexualized from a really early age. So everything from walking to school, I remember men walking past me, they're licking their lips. I remember being in school and boys would be laughing at me every time I was running. They'd be like, look at her boobs. They'd be pinging my bra straps I remember being told by friends and family you need to dress more modest you need to dress more proper and I'm like what

does that even mean like I'm such a I'm a young girl I don't I don't really I'm trying to just dress like how my friends dress but then I started to realize that I was being treated differently because of my chest and it almost felt like I had to hide because I was making people feel uncomfortable. I felt so much for that girl who was 11, 12, 13, because in every photograph that you showed, you had your hands kind of trying to cover your breasts. Yeah, yeah. That was the norm for me, the norm for Rochelle, who was in the documentary, because you just want to hide. You want to be invisible because everybody makes you feel like your body is wrong.

There's something wrong with you. You're making people feel uncomfortable. So the only thing you know how to do is just hide. Let's talk about Rochelle. Yeah, she was. She was going for breast reduction. She was going for breast reduction. Yeah.

So she had never experienced a girl's night out. She had she didn't even really go out with her boyfriend. In fact, they would go to the cinema because it was just in the dark. So no one would see them. They would barely go out for couples dinner. She had barely any friends. And she knew that it was because having big boobs made her feel super alienated. She felt really ashamed about her body.

And she talked about in the documentary about a man following her when she was in Disney World, which is absolutely crazy. And she was a young girl. So having a breast reduction surgery for her was life changing because she was able to live life on her terms and just feel normal. That's what she ever wanted was to feel normal and not hide anymore. And she's thriving and she's living her life. And that's just proof how life changing breast reduction surgery is for many women. And the other aspect that you get into, Jackie, were in the backlog, shall we say, after COVID

and, of course, cuts in hospitals, etc. Elective surgeries have gone way down the list. So a lot of people aren't getting on the NHS because the wait is too long and they're trying to pony up for themselves to the tune of £9,000. Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's suffering one way or the other because of the NHS waiting list.

And I think breast reduction surgery is for the NHS, but it really is luck of the draw. Some people get it, some people don't. And lots of women, unfortunately, are having to resort to crowdfunders to get their breast reduction surgeries because they don't have the capital on their own. So they have to go out there and ask people to help them. And that just shows how hard it is. I mean, I can't even imagine what it's like for someone

to have to start a crowdfunder. You've probably got a really normal job, you probably have a really normal life. And that's, you know, that's out there for the public for everyone to see. And you've got to show pictures of how bad it is, you know. And there's one lady you meet, who went to crowdfund. And, you know. And there's one lady you meet who went to crowdfund and, you know, we could have probably predicted it. Yeah. Got so many disgusting people

getting in touch with her in a sexual way. Yeah. When she talked about like they wanted photographs of her breasts if they were going to fund her. I mean, boggles the mind.

But, you know, listening to this is Sarah who, you know, looks at, I suppose, the cultural place of breasts in our history. And how would you see big breasts, Sarah? I mean, Jackie and I were speaking before we came on air and we said, like, in British culture, they're often considered funny. Funny, yeah. Yeah, there is like, there is this kind of comic history of the big bust you mentioned barbara windsor and the carry-on films hattie jacks in their plane the sort of the matron

character and this idea of this sort of big you know this vast prowl that's kind of both enormously sexual but sort of so intimidating that it can't be even be taken seriously there's a very there's a very sort of weird schoolboyish attitude towards large breasts. And it's not, you know, it is not by any means unique to British culture. But in this culture, it's really tied up with the sort of saucy seaside postcard tradition. And page three, especially. And page three, I think, is really indicative of the way that very young girls, you know, girls aged sort of 15 or younger would be

talent spotted for page three when that was still a thing. And having big breasts marked them as sexual, even though they were still children. And there is this cultural attitude that by having big breasts, you somehow entered the realm of the sort of sexually available. But you would think moving on from the 80s, maybe of the heyday of Page Three Girls, that the attitudes or indeed the actions of society towards women with big breasts would have changed. But has it, Sarah?

Well, I mean, not at all, because I think as, you know, in some ways we've become less tolerant sexually of sort of pornographic content like page three being part of mainstream media. At the same time, actual pornography is absolutely rampant. I know Women's Error has done loads of really strong items about the prevalence of sexual harassment via pornography being available in schools. So that is how girls see breasts being represented, being represented primarily as sexual objects for male exploitation and use. And the bigger the breasts, the more exploitable they are, essentially, and the more you're seen to exist for men's pleasure. Yeah, I'm just nodding my head like yes, yes, yes. Because I do think that big breasts are

seen as public property people feel that oh they're out there so they're available let's let's have a feel let's have a say it almost feels like your boobs do not belong to you but for everyone else like they're there for everyone else to look at and gawk at and make comments about and I think that's one of the most incredibly hard things about having big breasts is the kind of psychological warfare that goes on in your mind do I own it or do I hide you know that is the constant battle of being proud of your own body that you can't have them out there and I loved that so many of the women with big breasts in your documentary wore low-cut tops and very much um you know wore them proudly um but the fear I suppose if you do that,

that somehow... Yeah. If something happens to you, it's your fault. Why'd you have them out then? You know, it's always, the blame always lies with us.

Even if you don't have your boob showing, someone's still going to look. Someone's still going to comment. Oh yeah. There was one woman who, there was a man like, she's in an office

behind a glass screen and he was coming up and others, not just one, might I add, coming up and being lewd basically one, might I add, coming up and being lewd basically through that glass.

Let's read some of the comments coming in. Let me see. Regarding large breasts, the cost of buying bras that fit is a challenge. There isn't enough choice of colours for women needing larger sizes.

I, oh my goodness, here's one. I just had to pull over when driving hearing this on Woman's Hour. I'm having breast reduction surgery tomorrow. I'm 57 years old and I've dreamt about this for 30 years.

I'm a successful businesswoman in my own right, but I'm sick of being judged by my breasts. Another, my 17 year old daughter has big boobs like me. She feels very self-conscious about them due to the unwanted attention from older, leery men. She's learned the retaliatory death stare and form of words to call out gulping stares. I'm hoping that as she gets older, she'll get to love her double D's. And so many of these stories continue. And it is not, you are very much a body positivity and you are very much wanting to have people be proud of whatever shape and size that they are.

But you did meet a lot of women that were looking for breast reduction surgery, as we're hearing from our listeners as well. I want to play an interaction you had with the surgeon that was doing Rochelle's surgery, who does mainly breast reductions. Let's listen to the interaction. Don't you get any problems like with your breasts, like backache, neckache? I don't. They do feel heavy, of course, but I'm almost so used to it. You're used to it now, yes.

But I do have grooves in my shoulders from the bras, things like that. Or sometimes I wear bikinis and then they just ping off and I'm like, oh my gosh. Don't forget that as you grow older, they get worse these problems okay what what gets worse the like the like maybe the the digs and yeah the hygiene of the breast and the and the and you will get backache at some point so I was quite moved watching you after that tell our listeners how that made you feel yeah I that I hadn't felt that triggered since I was probably 11 years old I am someone who's you know really positive and in that moment I felt like my whole kind of self-love regarding my boobs crumbled because I was thinking oh god if I'm gonna have backache then what am I doing what am I embracing if this is

gonna lead me to further harm and I yeah felt so, so sad in that moment, like maybe it's wrong for me to have big boobs. But then I kind of snapped out of it a few days later. And I realized that, you know, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent, but also that I don't feel bad about my boobs. And sometimes people will make you feel that way. And it's actually separating myself from the noise and realizing I'm actually okay with who I am and and that's and I'm embracing that so but in that moment he really caught me off guard and you know that was that was a moment where I thought to myself maybe I should consider breast reduction surgery but and he is a breast reduction

surgeon exactly it's it's sales so he got me well he thought he got me surgeon. Exactly. It's sales. So he got me. Well, he thought he got me, but. For some people, it's wonderful. And for other people, they do not want it. So it's just, I'm just really interested in hearing people's stories on how this is. I had a reduction in my 20s, says another. It changed my life, but I'm still emotionally scarred by the attention I got before the surgery. I'm not small now. It changed my life, but I'm still emotionally scarred by the attention I got before the surgery. I'm not small now.

It's still tough. Sarah, just as we finish this, are you surprised at the amount of women that are in their 50s and 60s that we're hearing that are having breast reduction surgery after, you know, going through a lifetime

of enduring the cultural, societal, I suppose, comments that come with having big breasts? No, not surprised at all. And it does it does make sense you know like breasts do get larger after menopause they do get bigger in some cases if you've been breastfeeding like it's likely to be something that becomes more of a problem as you get old what does make me sad though is like that scene watching Jackie receive the hard cell from the private surgeon I found really upsetting and that is how private medicine works and I do think there's a trade-off that women are making to have smaller breasts you do potentially lose sensation

you are sacrificing a part of your body to fit into what other people think you should be and I you know I don't think there's any way not to see that as slightly sad actually in some cases. I want to thank everybody getting in touch uh keep them coming. Oh, another one. I was talking about her aunt who had the surgery at 81. Whoa. I know. I know. So many. 84844.

I'll keep reading them. Jackie Adedeji, thank you so much. And her Channel 4 documentary is called My Big Boobs. Totally recommend a watch. And we had Sarah Dighton as well on the cultural history.

Thanks to you both so much. If you missed yesterday's show, you can catch up on BBC Sounds. But we had this special programme all about the lies we tell in our personal lives, from little white lies to catastrophic whoppers.

And we found out why we lie and the impact that our lives can have. Relationship coach Natalie Liu explains how a lie impacted her. I found out that my father had conceived another child

behind my stepmother's back. She won't mind me saying it. He passed away anyway six years ago. I was at mid-twenties when I found out. It devastated me

when I found out. I'm glad that I know the truth but it's taken us years to process that. And it was such an unsettling, like it had a ripple effect, this lie, this deceit. So it does, it has a profound effect on you afterwards. It takes a long time to trust yourself again, but also you struggle to trust others. Terrific guests. You can listen back to the programme by going to BBC Sounds.

Now, we've talked a lot about childcare costs on this programme. How's this for a conundrum? Getting into debt in order to go to work because the cost of childcare is throwing you into the red as you're trying to maintain a career. According to the Discrimination Against Mothers

campaign group, it's called Pregnant Then Screwed, one in three parents using formal childcare have had to rely on some sort of debt to cover childcare costs and nearly half of those were single parents. There's a survey of 2,000 working mothers last year. It found that almost half are debts of more than £5,000. Now you might know, we've talked about this before, childcare costs in the UK are the third highest in the world. That's according to data from the OECD. So it's leaving many women with this age old choice, career or motherhood. Is it worth, for example, taking out a loan, using credit cards to pay for that childcare while you try to continue on a career trajectory?

Or is it too much of a financial risk? Well, I'm joined now by two mothers with different experiences of taking that path. Tanaka Choto is a single mother with a five-year-old son working in financial services in London. And we also have Ellie Turner, a professional musician and teacher, also single with children aged 20, 11 and almost two, based in Lincolnshire. Tanaka, let me start with you. What was the situation

when you were having your son? What were you thinking about childcare costs, if you were? Yes, so I was suffering from a relationship breakdown at that time and I was moving out and trying to, you know know establish myself somewhere and get some furniture in the house and it was a big thought because I was just at the beginning of my career in finance I was on a graduate scheme and it's quite difficult to get so I had to think about what I wanted to do so I ended up taking a £10,000 loan to pay off the child care and I mean it sounds like a lot and it is a lot, but it wasn't even really a dent to the overall cost that I had to pay because in the first year

I had to pay £1,200 a month, which ended up being more than £14,000 a year. And then in the preceding months when he did qualify for 30 hours free childcare, I was paying around £800 a month. So in total, over those four years, because he's a September baby, so I had an extra year of childcare to account for, I ended up paying around £45,000 to have him continue and go to nursery. And was it a very clear career and financial plan that this will pay for itself? I'm almost thinking like some people might think about university, for example. Yes, it was a lot like that. Because I think we do need to just take a step back and reassess and look at childcare for what it is.

It's education, it's early years education. So we have a situation in this country where up to 18, you get completely free funded by the government cost. And then after you finish school, you can go to university and you get a student loan and a student grant, because we recognize that the cost is so significant that if we don't offer that, we'll end up with a country where we won't have doctors, we won't have nurses, we won't have the educational underpinning that we need, and then look to migration. And the same is actually similar for um parents we're being asked basically because it's unaffordable i mean when i started discussing about this on a public level like in 2021 at the end of 2021 80 of parents said it was um unaffordable for them and now it's gone to 94

of parents uh saying it's unaffordable so i get a lot of those responses which are like well if you can't um afford kids don't have them but that means 94 percent of kids would not be here and we will have to look to migration again and this seems to also be of course there can be uh lots of men involved in this but it can be primarily a woman's issue if they are their primary caregivers ellie you're a professional harpist so can be less financially stable a career, I'd imagine, than financial services. You do have three children that I mentioned. Tanaka was telling us about the £45,000. How about your debt, if you're okay talking about it? Yeah, fine. It seems to be that I've racked up around £30000 in debt it's not all through child care but a huge amount of

that is because I haven't really had much help with that and the big problem for me is that I'm using babysitters who are out of hours child care so as well as it being an educational thing in my case it's also really a nurturing thing I've needed wonderful caregivers who've had my children you know even had to put my children to bed while I've done concerts so I've been using people who are really in loco parentis and that those the the kind of money that I've been paying people is normally in cash and it's it can be a lot higher because they might just have one of my children. So it's quite a substantial cost and you can't get that back. You can't offset that against tax or universal credit.

Tanaka was kind of talking about it as a career plan. Is that the way you thought about it too, that perhaps as a harpist you might be coming to a point where your salary would increase definitely I always thought that I was um on a kind of upward career trajectory yes and I also was aware that I had you know a gift to a certain extent and that I felt that I had a responsibility to use that my parents invested heavily in my musical education and so it was a passion but it also felt like a responsibility and I've always loved working in the community and doing using my

music in lots of different situations you know to do with caregiving and so on not just concerts so I felt like I had this really strong vocation and passion for for what I was doing but I did constantly have to justify my choices to myself and to a certain extent to other people certainly to my own parents a refrain from my own mother Eleanor you need to change your life constantly Eleanor you need to change your life this is unsustainable and I think I just felt the fear of failure to a certain extent and that kind of shame and knowing what I'd invested up to that point then not wanting to lose that you know really finding it very difficult to look at it rationally and see how much money I was losing. So you were pretty far down that path but I know a couple of your children are older now

you still have a little one that's just about two so obviously you're facing it again but do you regret doing it the way you did in the sense of taking on that debt? It's really difficult to answer that because I think now I can see that there would be I haven't gained that much by doing it and a lot of the attempts that I made to invest in something that I saw as more secure for my children, because we do it all for our children really, they were actually career failures and so things like working within the daytime whilst my children were at school or nursery, I tried to kind of mould my career in that direction for a long time and actually something to do with my instrument, the harp, being a very niche instrument. Lots of my plans kind of just

they didn't come through in the way that I hoped they would. I thought I was getting working in schools and universities, I thought you know I was getting little things like pension schemes and things that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to afford myself. So I was really trying, but usually it didn't come out well. So I ended up losing more in the long run. It sounds to me what you're saying, Ellie, is that you were really still trying to fit it around raising children instead of being able to go 100% the road of a musician, which is a very obviously strange hours, maybe on the road, all those sorts of things that mightn't fit exactly with trying to care for those children

in the way that you wanted to. Janaki, you were hearing the story there. I know you were nodding around, nodding as well to some of what Ellie was saying. But do you have any advice to mums out there? Because it can pay off or not pay off, as we're hearing when it comes to actually financial security. I mean, most of life is just a lot of risk taking. Take a step back. I'm not here to advocate for people to get in debt, obviously. I had just completed my master's. I was on a graduate scheme with a very set uh clear progression path and I took that that was the right decision for me and for me it has worked and it has blossomed and you know I keep rising within my career field the only thing that I have to say is that I don't think the government thinks about single parents

really because let's say I end up you know climbing to the top maybe I'm earning 80,000 pounds what I take home will be less than two parent homes that will bring in 40k in because of the tax rates and I don't think that's fair at all. I understand well thank you both so much for coming on Tanaka Choko and also we had Ellie joining us different roads that they took when it came to paying for childcare. I just want to read a statement from the Department for Education. They say, we're introducing the largest ever expansion of free childcare in England, worth up to an average of £6,500 per child per year for a working family.

We recognise the cost pressures that childcare can create for parents and low-income families already qualify for 15 hours free childcare for two-year-olds a year before all children become eligible for 15 hours at age three and four. We're also increasing the childcare costs that parents on universal credit can claim back by around 50%. It's something we'll keep talking about. An election issue, many say. Right, let me move on to something else. Will you miss the sound of this? Yep, Sky Atlantic HBO TV series Succession.

Of course, it has ended after four dramatic, dramatic seasons called the greatest TV show ever made. Agree? It's satirical. It's a dark comedy. It's a drama. It's about power and politics and family dynasty

and follows the highly dysfunctional and fictional Roy family who control the biggest media and entertainment company in the world. I'm going to try and avoid spoilers, but listen, if you haven't seen the big one, it's going to come up

of this last series. So tune out for the next 10 minutes if you have to and join me tomorrow. But the reason we wanted to talk about it today is that the show has produced incredible female characters. And we have here to talk us through the comedian Sarah Barron. You're very welcome. Who co-hosts Firecrouch and Normcore podcast,

All About the Show, and journalist Laura Martin. Both staying up to watch the finale live, as did I. So I think I have to jump into Shiv straight away. This is Siobhan, one of the daughters of Logan Roy, running for succession. For me, she was one of the daughters of Logan Roy, running for succession. For me, she was one of the most compelling characters that I watched. For you, Laura, is she also, who was it?

What person or what woman was it that grabbed you? Oh, totally Shiv. It's just so interesting that people are like, oh, are you Team Shiv or Team Kendall, Team Roman? They're the other two sons, yes. Yes, but the ultimate thing is they're all awful people. It's, you know, she sets herself up as, you know, she's so smart. She's intelligent. She's fierce.

But she gives as good as she gets. But it all kind of comes crumbling down because she will trample over anyone to get what she wants. Yes, so that's kind of, it's a a double edged sword with Shiv, I think. What about that, Sarah? I thought she was kind of a new type of female TV character. Did you? In as much as sort of she was allowed to be despicable and sort of morally disgusting, but then also touch our hearts. I thought I thought that combination was part of what made her so unique. And she also took me on this very disturbing, but really compelling journey, which I feel is part of what Succession does at every turn,

in terms of making me look at my own sort of internalized misogyny, because I spent all of the first three seasons kind of hating her, and then hating myself for hating one of the primary female characters. And then so much of season four is about exploring on an even deeper level why she does what she does. And then feeling, I would say, more sympathy for her than almost anyone else in the show. She does talk at her father's funeral, spoiler alert, that he could not fit a whole woman in his head, but he definitely had loads of women around him. We see the current wife and the mistress and the former wives and mistresses all sitting together, even taking each other's hands. What did you think about that scene?

I thought that was so touching, especially because in one of the earlier episodes, you'd seen Marcia, who was his wife, latest wife, absolutely bawling out Kerry, the mistress, sending her home shame to her small apartment. But in the funeral scene, it was very touching. She took her hand. I love that line where they said, well, you know, at least he won't be grinding his teeth tonight. The only four women. So the two ex-wives and the two mistresses that would have truly known what Logan was like. But I think that was very interesting, that line of how he couldn't fit a whole woman in his head. It's why for Shiv, she was never really going to be the chosen one to be the successor,

because he actually couldn't handle the idea of a woman doing it, I think, ultimately. And at the end, she does this twist. does she stay with the brothers or does she go to Tom her husband to try I think this is my interpretation to maintain power. Well this is the thing about Shiv she claims to be altruistic but it's all to work in her own favour. It wasn't that she wanted to help out Tom that she was thinking of her future child it was just she didn't want Kendall to have it that's what it came down to. I kind of thought of a name. You only get to choose your husbands at times or your fathers. And that kind of came to my mind as I saw that scene.

But let me go back to you, Sarah, as well. We cannot forget Gerry, the general counsel and interim CEO of the company who did have an affair with a much younger man, the son, Roman. How did you see her role in this last series? Well, first of all, she did, we have to remember, she did not have an affair with him. She was sort of, you know, she was sent all these pics by him and all this, you know, all this sort

of, what even was it, sexual chemistry, kind of something like that. But I think, you know, that I say that again, flirting. I don't know. What do we, we sort of, it sort of is harassment, you know, as is the case with succession, all these fascinating and bizarre power dynamics kind of came into play with that situation. But I thought that the story of that actor, Jay Smith Cameron is a really interesting one because the role of Jerry in any other show would have been someone that you kind of almost couldn't remember the name of the guy it was supposed to

be a man initially but then j smith cameron came in and read for it as i understand it and was so compelling and how she presented that they they made that a woman instead and she's gone on to become the sort of fan favorite um which i think is an interesting point about succession where generally is that we're talking about the women of it and it which I think is an interesting point about Succession more generally is that we're talking about the women of it. And it's not even just as simple as these fabulous female characters, like the writer's room and the directors

and the executive producers and the people doing the costumes and the people getting the props together. There are so many women involved in every facet of that show, which I think has helped to make it a rounder, bigger, more detailed thing than it would otherwise be. And there's more than we have spoken about. But Sarah Barron, thank you so much.

Firecracker Norm Corris, where you find her. And Laura Martin, the journalist. Thank you both for talking to us about Succession. Tomorrow, trampolining. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. but I am looking to get rid of a second-hand coffin. My mum has found this little metal box in her garden. Can anybody local please remove three stitches out of my neck? This series, I'm joined by some top people, including Nick Grimshaw.

It's a grenade! Izzy Sutty. That's my favourite reply. And self-esteem. If you think I should cover this one up, you should see me other one, bloody hell. Head to BBC Sounds to find brand new episodes of Welcome to the Neighbourhood with me, Jade Adams. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. I've never heard of.