Woman's Hour - Childcare, Returning to Syria, Inclusive wigs after chemo

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

A new analysis on the quality and quantity of childcare provision in England has revealed that the huge expansion of free childcare currently underway is at risk of not delivering for poorer families, according to a new report from the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) and Save the Children. Author of the report Jodie Reed and Phoebe Arslanagic-Little, Head of the New Deal for Parents at Onward, join Nuala McGovern to discuss.People in Syria are still celebrating in the streets after Bashar al-Assad was toppled from power at the weekend. For many, the regime change is personally life-changing, especially those who fled the country and now feel like it’s safe to return home. One of those is the BBC’s very own Middle East Correspondent Lina Sinjab, who was forced to leave in 2013 after multiple arrests and threats. Now, she’s back in Damascus, working freely as a journalist for the first time in many years. She tells Nuala what that's like.A new Spanish-language film, Sujo, examines the life of an orphan in Mexico after his father, a cartel gunman, is killed. It’s a fictional look into the real-life implications of cartel violence for people living in certain parts of Mexico, and it shows the key roles that women play in trying to help this young man move through his life. Astrid Rondero and Fernanda Valadez are the co-directors and they join Nuala to discuss it.After going through chemotherapy for breast cancer, hairdresser Anastasia Cameron was told at a salon in Wales that they didn’t offer Afro wigs. She joins Nuala to discuss her experience and how she’s now helping other women in similar situations with her own wig business.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, you'll hear from the BBC correspondent, Lina Sinjab, in just a moment. She has gone home to Damascus and is reporting from Syria freely for the first time in over a decade. She brings us to the streets. Also today, a report into childcare that found two-thirds of England's poorest families miss out on childcare. It also predicts that there will be no childminders by 2033 if the current rate of attrition continues.

We also today want to talk about a heartbreaking and very beautiful film out of Mexico. The two co-directors will be with us. They show the fallout for society from drug cartels and the communities that it creates, void of adult men. Also, one of my guests today helped create a solution when she discovered there was a lack of Afro wigs when she was going through cancer treatment. Losing one hair can be a pivotal moment for some women that are going through chemotherapy. This morning, I'd like to know what does or did your wig mean to you as you went through cancer treatment? Is it important to have a wig that makes you look and feel like you? Or perhaps it's a chance to experiment and try something completely new. How did you find the process of going and choosing a wig at a time when you possibly felt very vulnerable?

Wigs and Cancer, I want to hear from you this morning. You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website for WhatsApp, for a message or a voice note. The number is 03 700 100 444. But just as we were hearing in the news bulletin, the main Islamist rebel leader in Syria has said that they will list former regime officials who oversaw torture under Assad's rule. Now, this is the latest development in Syria. People are still celebrating in the streets after Bashar al-Assad was toppled from power at the weekend.

For many, this change is life-changing, especially those who fled the country and now feel like it's finally safe to return home. One of those people is the BBC's very own Middle East correspondent, Lina Sinjab. She was forced to leave her country in 2013 after multiple arrests and threats against her. Now, for the first time, she is back in Damascus.

She's working freely as a journalist. This is after many, many years. And Lina joined me just before we came on air from Damascus and I asked her how she's doing. Well, it's really mixed feelings of, you know, not understanding the speed of events and how quickly after 13 years of reporting on this conflict in my own country, whether inside or outside, suddenly within 10 days, the regime is toppled and Syria is free, crossing the border from Lebanon that day, actually four or five hours after the announcement that Assad has

fled the country. It just felt, you know, so strange, the first time coming in without fear, coming into my country and having in the back of my head that you know 50 years of rule of Assad is not there anymore I have all the questions of coming back home am I going to be able to live back here freely what's going to happen next but at the same time looking around me and seeing how people are celebrating with joy that you know something they've dreamt of for years is just finally happening. And do you think you will be able to live there freely again? For the moment, I'm still trying to observe what's happened. I do have concerns over the Islamists ruling the country, but living under the Assad rule for decades,

you know, personally, you know, and many, many people like me, you know, under the father and under the son, I don't think anything will be as worse as the tyranny and the oppression that we've lived throughout the years of Assad. Of course, you know, I'm a secular person. I don't want to see Islamist ruling in the country. But again, you know, you need to wait and see how things will unfold. And I think, you know, there won't be any chance for people to be silent anymore, to accept, you know, any tyranny or accept any oppression anymore. The rebel leader has made many promises that gave assurances to people,

to minorities, to even the Alawites who supported Assad. He issued an amnesty today for, you know, all the ones who worked with Assad while at the same time, you know, issuing, saying that there would be a list of those who were involved in torturing and killing Syrians that should be brought to justice and be prosecuted. I think we're still at the very early days and we really need to take a deep breath and assess the situation as it goes and monitoring it very closely. It's not important what the rebels say, it's what's important is what they do. And we'll have to wait and see and monitor the situation. Did you see this coming? I left Syria 2013 and, you know, I was devastated about leaving, but I still had hope at that time that there would be a political solution. And even when I left,

I was always saying that I'm out for two weeks, three weeks, four weeks. And here I am, I've been out for 11 years, I've lost hope, I had despair, I've been I felt like I don't belong anywhere. And I thought that my Syria has gone forever. But something inside me never wanted to give up. So I always tried to come back, even bribing my way in, you know, always dreamt of like rebuilding my house, you know, in Damascus, living in Damascus, maybe retire in Damascus. You know, it was all thoughts in my in my head. since the fall of Aleppo to the fall of Damascus and the departure of former Assad, it was just unbelievable to understand and take in in such a speedy time, basically. So you are a woman hoping to return, it sounds like, to Damascus. But you do mention the Islamist group,

which are Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, HTS, and we don't know exactly what their plans might be going forward. What are you hearing from other women about their hopes or fears about potentially returning to Syria or indeed what the future might hold for those that live there already? Well, you know, there are mixed feelings. Those who are in Damascus, really, I mean, everywhere you go, people are celebrating, are happy, are excited. There are, of course, among the minorities who are worried, even the secular Sunnis are worried about the rule of Islamists in the country. You know, as I said, the HTS leader came out and gave assurances

that no one will interfere in people's dress code or the way of living. He went and met with some of the HTS, met with some of the minorities in the Christian neighborhood, met with the priest and gave assurances and wanted people to be involved. Lena, let's just stop there for the behind you. What are we hearing? It's just some gunfire in the air. I don't know if it is celebratory gunfire or I'm not sure.

I'm struck by you that you didn't even flinch when you heard that in the background. Because it's been the past couple of days, we've heard a lot of these kind of gunfire that are celebratory ones, you know, sporadic in different parts of the country. The first day, of course, when we arrived, it was almost everywhere, non-stop, until there was a curfew around 5pm in the afternoon until the next morning.

Less and less gunfire was heard yesterday, and today probably this is the first time I'm hearing it. So people are not worried about these gunfires at the moment. They're thinking about how things are going to move forward later. We've seen also that members of the HTS took control of many public institutes where they're protecting them from looting or from mobs breaking into them. So I really think it's the early hours

of assessing how things are going to move. It's a mixture of optimism, but also cautiously monitoring how these Islamists are going to operate. Because I'm wondering, and this being Women's Hour, I mean, are people talking about what happened in Afghanistan, for example, or what happened in Libya? We could also talk about Iraq.

You know, when a strongman has been ousted. This is exactly in people's minds. You know, people are thinking about these examples. But it's just also the early days people want to live the joy of toppling uh bashar al-assad and i think you know many people are also voicing uh these issues and the hts are aware of it as i mentioned they came out but they met with minorities they said no one is going to interfere in people's life or impose any dress code on people or on women. So but but it's it's early to judge. Now they're saying they're giving promises. Are they going to implement how they are going to continue forward?

Now they've appointed a transitional government that is Islamist and that is, you know, of one color, only men. How is the permanent government is going to be formed? Is it going to include other, you know, opposition forces? Is it going to include civil society activists, politicians, women, Christians, or other denomination of the Syrian society? These are all the questions on people's minds. But I think also they're thinking it's been only 72 hours. Let's give them time and be their watchdog

and, you know, criticize when there is a criticism needed. You have family still in Damascus? I do have family still in Damascus. I didn't have the chance to go see them or contact them yet since I have arrived

because I've been on air all the time. But I'll take the time today time to personally take a deep breath, go see the city, see my places, see my school, see my neighborhood, see my family's house, see my relatives. But also maybe visit the detention center that I was arrested in or I was wanted in, assess the situation slowly but surely on the ground. We are all taken by surprise. We're only covering the breaking news about the situation now. But I think we need some time to, you know, process the situation and assess it and go in depth about what's happening. What does it mean to you to be home that pull of home well it's as i said earlier i mean i over the past 10 years i've been uprooted i felt depressed i was traumatized and i lost hope i felt that there was no um you know light at the end of the tunnel i didn't know where i belong i was living in beirut

but never felt that i'm home in beirut um and now i have mixed feelings i so much want to come back to damascus and live permanently here but i feel i also want to be rational about my decision not to take like a fast decision my house was. I need time and money to rebuild it. So I have nowhere to live here. You know, the government destroyed it, like people pro-government destroyed it for me simply because they wanted to snatch it from me. And I don't know. I mean, I have to assess. I think, as I said, we are still at the early days. We need to take baby steps. But personally, I've been chatting to my friends, and everyone I know is coming to celebrate New Year in Damascus. So we want to still celebrate new beginnings.

We want to regroup, regather. We want to be in the streets. We want to dance. We want to salute our country. We want to embrace each other. We want to take time to. We want to embrace each other. We want to take time to, you know, heal our wounds and start again. That was my colleague, the BBC's Lina Sinjab, speaking to me from Damascus, which is her hometown, just over the past hour or so. I've been asking you about your stories about wigs and cancer.

I want to read one that just came in to me. I'm off for a second appointment for a cancer wig today and I am dreading it. The wig person took the instruction, silver grey bob, to be anything from long, blonde to shaggy doormat. This time I'll be accompanied by a straight-talking friend whose brief it is to tell it like it is. What's so wrong with just wearing hats? Easier to wear, I'd wager,

and don't look quite so absurd if they slip. Lots of you getting in touch, 84844, if you'd like to add your voice. But I want to turn to the Institute for Public Policy Research, a left-leaning think tank, because they've just published a major report on childcare. In it, they say that among the poorest parents with young children, only a third use formal childcare. In it, they say that among the poorest parents with young children, only a third use formal childcare.

Now, that figure is more than two thirds for the highest earning households. It comes in the context of an unprecedented extension of funded childcare placements in England, introduced by the previous Conservative government

and now being rolled out in stages. Working parents of children from nine months can access 15 hours a week of free childcare. The Labour government that is now in power hopes the scheme will help parents return to work. However, critics say there's not enough places.

So, is the scheme working as it should or are poorer children missing out? I'm joined by the author of the report, an associate fellow at the IPPR, Jodie Reid. Welcome. And also with us is Phoebe Arsonegich-Little, who is head of a new deal for parents at the Centre Right think tank. Onward. Good morning.

Good morning. Jodie, let me start with you. You said two thirds of the poorest families are missing out on childcare. How did you reach that figure? Yeah, so we've looked at the Labour Force survey and done that analysis. We've looked at income groups and we've also looked at job occupations. And one thing that's interesting is this is not just a question of parents at home not working. This is a question of very significant differences between occupational groups.

So when it comes to managers or senior professionals, you've got around 70% take up. That's across the UK. Whereas if you look at elementary professions, services, cleaners, take-up is less than half. Do you know why? So there's a number of factors at play, but a very significant thing we found is the very different levels of accessible provision per child across different communities. And you mentioned accessible provision, and we different communities. And you mentioned accessible

provision and we will get into that but as I was reading out this extension of funded child care entitlements is currently underway, unprecedented is what it's called. Do you not see that alleviating issues? Yeah it's incredibly exciting for someone who's worked on early years for most of her career. It's to hear the Prime Minister stand up last week and say we're going to make early years one of our delivery milestones. We're seeing the budget for early years doubling so that from about £4 billion to £8 billion, which will leave government as the biggest buyer of childcare in this country for the first time in history. So it is exciting, but an entitlement on its own won't deliver places to families if they don't have the provision

available to them locally. So you talk about access. Explain what the barriers are as you see it. So there are some long term issues we've always had in our market, whereas markets in better off areas work more successfully. Parents can pay more. The government has always weighted funding so that disadvantaged areas get a little bit more and disadvantaged pupils, in particular through the earliest pupil premium that was introduced several years ago. However, the weighting is nowhere near as staggered as it is for children in school. So schools in disadvantaged areas

tend to get more money than early years providers in disadvantaged areas. And also, as I mentioned, with the government becoming the biggest buyer of childcare providers, childcare places, there's no longer going to be the potential for providers to charge

parents more. So that's going to change the market significantly and mean that government really do have to fund those disadvantaged places. You talk about funding there, you will have seen today the Chancellor Rachel Rees has started her first spending review and promising, I quote, to take an iron fist against waste. So government departments are being asked to identify efficiency savings worth 5% of their current budgets. So is there anything that you are recommending that works within that structure? Yeah, so there's a part from increasing and making more efficient the funding for disadvantaged areas. There's lots of things in the report which are about better and more imaginative use of existing resource.

So, for example, we're recommending that local authorities come together and pool their funding to commission new provision in what we're calling childcare deserts, areas where there's not enough provision. We're also recommending that the government creates a structure to support some of the smaller nurseries. So the majority of nurseries in this country are actually very small settings. What size are we talking? So average number of staff is about 12. OK. And they are not part of a chain or group. I think it's about two thirds of them are not part of any of any wider group.

And they cannot achieve the same economies of scale as you see some of the larger chains uh achieving which are you know and we see some growth in the larger chains mainly across the leafier areas and so we're proposing that the government set up a structure called not-for-profit nursery trust which would allow some of those smaller nurseries to pull to to pool their uh learning their business management and work together to get those economies of scale. Are you trying to replicate what's happening in those larger chains? To some extent, yes. There will be not-for-profit structures and we're also recommending that where there's a desire for it,

they could actually evolve into full integrated charities. Let me pop over to Phoebe, who has been taking notes on a lot of what Jodie has been saying. Well, what do you want to pick up on, first of all? Well, first of all, I think it's really good that there is so much effort being put into and policy focus from government, but also from organisations like the IPPR and onwards, also published work, looking at how we can make the childcare system work better. So it just doesn't work very well at the moment. What about that last proposal that Jodie was outlining,

a not-for-profit nursery trust? Potentially that could be a positive adjustment to the system. At the moment, the system works in pretty complex ways. We know that parents find the subsidy system very difficult to navigate. We know that providers find navigating the subsidy system very difficult to navigate. We know that providers find navigating the subsidy system very, very difficult. Providers struggle with overhead costs as well. They struggle with recruitment.

Parents struggle to work out what exactly it is that they are entitled to. It's potentially the case that with some kind of restructuring like that, it could become easier to navigate that system and also actually to offer the service as well um you your group vb also talks about uh some of the ways that you would like government to adjust but there is a philosophy i suppose when it comes to child care as well like whether the government uh funded child care should really you know, looking at targeted at

working parents, for example, or should it be going at the other end, which would be the needs of the child. And although some might think they should work together, they can be very different priorities. Your thoughts first, Phoebe? Well, I mean, I just say, I think that everyone talking about childcare from parents to people who are designing the policies and government to organisations like within the IPPR. The needs of the child are always first and foremost, right, that we all want children to be in stable, stimulating environments. But that comes down to funding. For example, if we think about children that have particular needs that might need to be addressed in a certain way in a certain environment that would require a more nuanced approach for example than targeting parents that work 16 hours a week yes i think actually you know thinking about

what works beyond that making sure that all care that children get is of good quality whether or not that's at home or actually actually in like a formal in a formal setting. I am particularly interested in how we make sure that parents have lots of choice and are able to get a childcare provision that works for them very, very, very well. We know that where parents are able to balance work and family life better, people are able to better build the family lives they want,

have the number of children that they want. Childcare is a a huge part of that part of getting the right sort of system that works in terms of the hours that you want to do in terms of the sort of environment that you want your child to be in because I know your think tank talks also about people being able to have as many children as they would like to to have that balance of life that you talk about there and childcare being part of that. Do you support the two child benefit cap? No. In fact, at the New Dulf Parents Onward, we wrote a report in the summer that explicitly calls for the two child benefit cap to be removed. So the two child benefit cap is the cap on the child element of universal credit, not actually on child benefits. It's an extremely widely misunderstood

name because it's got a terrible, it's terribly, terribly named. And we know very clearly from lots of research done by lots of organisations that not only does the two child benefit cap push children into poverty and more and more children every year, but it also sends a terrible signal to families and to parents, I think, that we're not willing to make sure that we're supporting families and children properly. I think you agree with that, Jodie. I do agree with that entirely. Thank you, Phoebe. And I'd just like to build as well on your earlier point and your question, Nuala, about whether childcare is for work or for child development. Because I think in policy circles, there's a tendency to think of these things as slightly different.

And certainly when the entitlement was rolled out, we were seeing low productivity, low growth in the labour market. And there was real concern to get more parents back to work. It's one objective for extending childcare. It's not a bad objective. But the reality for parents, the reality for children is that you don't go one place so your parent can work and another place to support your development. When you're a child aged nought to five, whatever you do within your environment supports your development. So another key part of what we're arguing for in our report is a more proactive approach on childminders to bring them into the funded entitlement and raise their quality and availability. Well, let's talk about childminders to bring them into the funded entitlement and raise their quality and availability.

Well, let's talk about childminders, because there was one line in your report that got quite a bit of headlines is that if the rate of attrition, so if the number of childminders continues to go down by the year 2033, there might be none. That's right. I was saying to Phoebe before, that's right I was saying to Phoebe before that's a figure that you know the fact that we're losing 3,000 childminders a year is actually widely has been reported it's been there in the statistics for a while project that forward and yes it does look rather scary for families this is a long-term trend it's been going on for over 10 years driven driven by financial pressures on the childminder model, which have, you know, already before the pandemic. What, the childminders aren't getting paid enough? It's hard for childminders to make it work financially and especially with costs of living increases, that's increased pressures.

However, the extended entitlement is a massive opportunity for them. It's a sort of do or die moment. It's right there for nought to twos, the market that they mostly serve, and it has the potential to provide them with more business. The government rate that's being paid to providers to care for nought to two-year-olds under the new extended entitlement is actually pretty generous.

So it's really a question about if we can bring childminders in and make that payment more accessible to them. And have you thought about that? Yes, so one of the things that we've said is that currently free funded places from the government get paid termly in most areas. Actually, they could be paid monthly. That would make it much easier for childminders. It's already happening in a couple of local authorities.

So that there's more basically liquid cash in their pocket. So they can get a more regular income from delivering government funded places. There are a number of other things you could do to make it easier for them. But that's that's chief amongst them. Any thoughts on that when it comes to childminders? I think that policy adjustments like that moving to monthly payments is that the sort of thing that make a really big difference to what is essentially a woman running like a very small business by herself. I mean, yeah, the the extent to which child care child minded numbers have declined I mean it's it's over 50 percent in the past decade my mother-in-law is always talking about the amazing child mind that my husband had when he was a baby I mean what this sort of exodus

of child minders from the market represents is a massive narrowing of choice for parents and like options and often like this is just care that's just available down the road so it really works well for parents and anything we can do I think to make it easier for more people to stay and come in would be excellent. Perhaps this is part Jodie you tell me of your reimagining of child care as a public led service this part of whether it's monthly for the childminders, for example. Give me some more specifics on what it would mean in families' day-to-day reality. To have childcare as more of a public service. Yeah, and explain that as well, because at the moment we have, you know, privately owned nurseries, for example.

We've talked through some of the challenges that there is there. But one of the aspects you're calling for or want people to think about is childminding or nurseries as a public led service. That's right. I think for a long time, the debate in policy is, should we be where we are now or should we be Sweden? And the sort of question about whether we should have a fully publicly delivered child childcare market. I personally don't think that's realistic or even desirable. We've got lots of different providers from the private and voluntary sector. In fact, most of our childcare providers are from the private and voluntary sector. And we need them to deliver the amount of places that we have. And we also don't really, it's not desirable from a child development point of view to put the most disadvantaged children just in certain state providers.

So I think the mixed market is a great thing. However, I think that if we imagine childcare as a public service, we would see government getting much more involved in terms of funding childcare at the cost that it's charged, managing the market, addressing problems like gaps in provision and childminders, but also bringing together childcare provision with other services. So I see there's a really strong role for local authorities to play in the future in knitting childcare together with wider services, for example, public health, special educational needs, having named professionals attached to individual settings. It's very exciting to hear family hubs are back on the table but it can't just be that. Well let me go back to Keir Starmer. He announced six milestones on which his government

should be judged this week. One of them is increasing the proportion of children in England who are ready to learn when they start school at the age of five to 75 percent. Your thoughts Phoebe? Yes it's possible that a better functioning child care system could be a big part of delivering something like that. The devil is in the detail. As I say the system is already very complicated. There are very like well-intentioned reforms that can actually just make things even more difficult to disentangle. I am hopeful, though, that there is an urgent government at the moment to simplify and make it easier for parents and providers to navigate. Jodie, how key do you think to childcare is that? I think that weight of evidence has shown us that childcare is absolutely critical to that.

We've already got 95% of three and four-year-olds in childcare for at least 15 hours a week. We need to extend that more broadly and we need to raise the quality and support that children get so that they really are ready to learn and play when they get to school. Very important as well. Jodie Reid, also we had Phoebe Arslanagich Little, thanks to both of you, comment, often the hours provided by nurseries are limited and some low paid jobs have inconvenient hours like evening work.

How do we solve that issue? Good question as well. We did hear today from the government that it has announced a £2 billion extra investment in early years compared to last year, which will help support the rollout.

From September 2025, eligible working parents of children from nine months will receive 30 hours of government-funded child care per week during term time and the extra investment includes an increase in the funded rate per hour so 75 million pounds for nurseries wanting to expand and the largest ever uplift to the early years pupil premium increasing rates by over 45 percent to up to £570 per eligible child per year. At the Department of Education, they say the increase will help those children who need it most in the areas that need it most to give them the support they need to be school ready by age

five. And the Secretary of State for Education, Bridget Philipson, has just said that the early years has been my priority from day one, because by giving more children the chance to start school ready to go, we transform their life chances and the life chances of every child in their classroom. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know

it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.

Now, something completely different. Are you one of the many people this morning checking out the photos of the upcoming Christmas special? The final ever episode of Gavin and Stacey. It's on the BBC News website. Well, the finale has been so hotly anticipated that the news about the Christmas special was leaked to the press back in May. I spoke to Ruth Jones just after it happened.

Until you know for definite that it can happen, you can't say anything. And we had, it's unfortunate that somebody decided to leak it to the press that we were developing this Christmas special. And it was unfortunate because James and I wanted to give everybody a nice surprise. And I think it was really mean that they leaked it because also it meant that I had to lie to people. I had to lie to friends and family because they were all saying, oh, is it happening? Is it happening?

And the reality is that until you have your cast booked, you have the budget worked out, all of those things, you cannot say categorically, yes, it's going to happen. And it's a lot easier sometimes to be creative without public scrutiny. Absolutely. Absolutely. We knew that we wanted to write the script without telling anybody, which is what we've done. We did it with the last special because rather than saying, oh, going to say, going to the BBC and saying, would you like another special?

Because if we, then we'd have the pressure to come up with it. Whereas we just wanted to know if we had something to say. So it's a real shame that that journalist decided to leak that story but hey ho they did and then I felt so awful I mean I had to go on radio in in Ireland when I was promoting Sister Act and I had to just say no no no it's a rumour because it's it still technically was a rumour Ruth Jones on Woman's Hour earlier this year. In October, I caught up with instead Alison Stedman who plays Pamela, the party loving matriarch that we

all love. This was just after she had finished filming the final episode. We finished on Monday night and there were many tears, I have to say, when we finished because, you know, we're all so close. And the filming has been really wonderful. It really has. It's been a real experience over 17 years from when we did the

first series. And, you know, it can't get better than that, really. I mean, it has to go down as one of my most favourite fun jobs. Yeah. Did you predict, like when you picked it up for the first time, did you have a feeling that it was going to be something that was so beloved? Well, I knew when I was sent the first script, I was just sent one episode and I started to read it. When I read the first scene with Pam and her little prince, her son,

I just knew that the writing was going to be brilliant. It's the scene where she's got the cucumbers on her eyes and her son goes, all right, Mum. She says, no, I'm not actually. And she says, I've just seen a programme where these little badgers die and the mother's crying. He says, Mum, I don't think badgers cry. And she says,

I know what I saw. Alison Stedman there. Well, you can hear both of those interviews on BBC Sounds. Just search for their names and Woman's Hour. And if you just can't wait for the final episode

of Gavin and Stacey, which will air on BBC One on Christmas Day, you can binge all the previous series on BBC iPlayer right now. Do you want to get in touch with the programme? 84844. A new Spanish-language film, Suho,

examines the life of an orphan in Mexico after his father, a cartel gunman, is killed. This is a fictional look into the real-life implications of cartel violence for people living in certain parts of Mexico. And throughout this film, it shows the key roles that women play in trying to help a young man move through his life. The film captures the reality of these communities,

which are essentially now void of adult men. Astrid Rondero and Fernanda Valadez have been creative collaborators for years, but this is the first project that they've co-directed together. They join me today live from Mexico. It's very early. Thank you for getting up. And we're going to discuss all that this film raises. Astrid Fernanda, welcome to Woman's Hour. And let me begin with you, Astrid. We meet Suho as a very young boy. His father is a cartel gunman, a sicario. Why did you start the story there and centre it around this young boy, Suho? Thank you so much. Well, we were trying to talk a little bit about legacy, what we're leaving to young kids in Mexico because of violence. So it's a question that we wanted to raise in the film.

These boys are destined to become like their fathers. So that's something that we wanted to portray in this film, this boy trying to overcome obstacles. And society and prejudice is one of those obstacles. So that's why we wanted to start with him very young so you can see how this kid is in the beginning. Absolutely, it doesn't have anything to do with that. So it's a story about determinism and free will, I guess. It is such a beautiful film.

So painful, though, at times to watch, I felt. Fernanda, Astrid talks about, I suppose, the fate that somebody might have or what's expected to be their destiny. But I suppose with this young boy, what is stopping him perhaps at times going down the wrong path are some of the women that are featured. Tell me what you were trying to get across with some of those characters for his aunt, for example. Well, first of all, I think in Mexico, women are like the first barrier protecting young children against violence.

And they're very active in those communities, just making resistance. And that's something we wanted to pay homage to, particularly with the figure of the ant. But there are many other characters who run on him, making a net of protection and just allowing him to be a different kind of boy and eventually a different kind of man. The ant is a protective barrier, perhaps not in the loving way that we might imagine without giving away any spoilers. But Astrid, there's also women that we see that are also involved in drug cartels, ones that are, I suppose, making the actual gangs continue in that way by being informers, by being kind of co-opted into what the men are doing? Yeah, of course.

It's not only a gender thing in Mexico, but I think that one of the biggest issues also in Mexico is the vulnerability that men have towards cartels. If they're using against the society, you know, this energy of young men trying to find a place in their world and in the world. So sometimes like enforced recruitment has a lot to do with that.

Like it's also a cultural recruitment. So I guess that men are more prone to fall victims to cartels. So that's perhaps something that we wanted to portray also in this film. And Fernanda, how did you create these characters that we meet, the women that we meet, formidable on whatever side of the cartel they might be for it or against it? Is this based, I don't know, on stories you have read? Or tell me about that. Well, at the beginning of the process,

we always go to those communities and talk to people and try to observe and to learn. And many of them, like you previously said, are almost void of men. And the women are the ones who stay behind and not only raise the children but are the ones needing uh the relationships within the community so we we observe that we we have many friends and and when women we have talked to over the years. And then for other female characters, we have based one of them in our mentor,

editor, Susan Corda, which at previous years have always been there for us without, just out of kindness and generosity. I mean, the teachers of the world, the mentors of the world, we wanted also to talk about that. The people who just get out of their comfort zone to help someone

without there being a need, just out of generosity. That is an amazing generosity of spirit that we see in one of the female characters that allows people to fall down and get up again. an amazing generosity of spirit that we see in one of the female characters that allows people to fall down and get up again, really a story of redemption, I think. And so you were basing that on somebody specifically. That's so interesting, I think. Also, I'd be curious about the Mexican film industry. How has it been working on this film

or perhaps also your previous work and career in Mexico when it comes to women? Well, it's an exciting time to be a film director, a women film director in Mexico. We always thought that we inherited the work of other women

because at some point in Mexico there weren't any film directors, women film directors at all so we are now experiencing a moment where there's a lot of films made by women and very successful films so it's a very exciting time to be making movies in our country I guess But with a lot of it is set in rural Michoacán,

a state in West Central Mexico. That's not where you're from or the life that is depicted on screen, I don't believe is close to the life either of you have lived. Fernanda first and then Astrid,

how did you immerse yourself in that world to bring it to life in the way that you did? Well, I'm from Guanajuato, which is the area in which we shot Michoacán in Tierra Caliente was too dangerous for us to shoot. So we went to Guanajuato, which is kind of nearby and has a similar landscape.

And that's an area we know very well. We have shot it throughout the years. That's the area also in which we shot Identifying Features, our previous film. So even though we don't come from that reality, we have been there and tending community ties over many years. So I think throughout just empathy and observation, Guanajuato is one of the states that every year expels more migrants to the U.S.

So that kind of is close by. I think in Guanajuato, everyone has a family member that has at least tried to cross the border or been turned back. That's really interesting. Nearly every family member. So some of those issues touch that people feel the need to leave, I suppose, with violence nearby. But coming to that Astrid, you know, Fernanda mentions it was just too dangerous to shoot there. What might happen if you went? Well, it's not possible to bring a crew in safety conditions there.

It's impossible. There are some areas in Michoacán, especially the places where we're portraying or trying to portray in the film, where there are like areas of silence that not even the press get in. So we couldn't shoot there at all. But that's the reason why we decided to go to Guanajuato, because it's a very similar place. But we have like these connections and it's much more safer to make a film. I thought it was also interesting though as we follow the story of this young boy turning into a young man

we also go to Mexico City and we see a middle class Mexicans academia, university professors etc. and I was thinking we don't always see that on our screens. I think a lot of the time it is a more violent or corrupt mexico that is portrayed astrid yeah totally and and it has to a lot to do with what you were asking before is i think that's that's our contribution that's where we come from. And that's the thing that we also wanted to portray in this film,

that there is a lot of Mexicos. And one is this Mexico with violence, but of course we have this other Mexico full of hope and opportunities and trying to find a different life. So that's where we come from. And for us, this film is also a testament of how these two types of Mexico can coexist and need to, you know, to blend. Yeah, blend. Yes, at times blend, at sometimes clash, I think might be fair as well. Coming back to you, Fernanda, what I was struck by is definitely these young boys and these women that are around them, but also so much nature and animals are part of the film.

Tell me why. Well, you know, in those areas, of course, there's an incredible amount of violence and pain and conflict. But at the same time, there's always beauty and there's always hope in a way. And we wanted to say that nature is not necessarily paying attention to us. Our daily griefs are independent and there's always something beyond us. There's a complexity of the universe happening and we wanted to express that and having this young boy

being aware of that and that being part of his emotional and spiritual education. It is a gorgeous film. Heartbreaking at times. Astrid Rondero Fernanda Valadez. Their film is Suho. That is S-U-J-O.

Thank you so much for joining us on Women's Hour. And it will be out in cinemas, I should let you know as well. After speaking about it, you'll want to know where can I see it. It's from Friday the 13th. Let me turn to hair loss. you know as well after speaking about it you want to know where can i see it it's uh from friday the 13th let me turn to hair loss lots of you getting in touch with me this morning about wigs thank you for your messages here's one tola i'm currently going through chemo and will be going through my

third cycle of six next tuesday i'm a black woman unfortunately the nhs doesn't provide afro wigs so i've been forced to go with a European style, which I am yet to actually wear. I've chosen to go with hats instead. Okay, that is a little of what we are going to be talking about next. We do know, for many, wearing a wig can ease the transition of hair loss from certain forms of chemotherapy. There are salons and wig makers across the UK

that offer their service to NHS patients. But like we were hearing from Tola, what if your hair type isn't stocked? It happened also to hairdresser Anastasia Cameron. She is from just outside Cardiff and was told that Afro wigs weren't available in the salon that she visited when she had cancer. Anastasia had trained as a hairdresser and also as a wig maker.

So her experience through her cancer treatment and trying to find a wig led her to creating wigs for the NHS so she could help women in England and Wales find a perfect match. I'm glad to say Anastasia joins me now. Welcome. Good morning. Good to have you with us. Let's go back to the beginning of your journey. You were diagnosed with breast cancer in 2021.

As a hairdresser, also a wig maker, as I mentioned, I suppose you came to a realisation at some point that you were possibly going to lose your hair. That's correct yes so I had an operation and it was unknown whether I was going to be having chemotherapy until that pathology came through once the pathology came through that they told me that I'd be having chemotherapy and of course the chemotherapy the drug that I was having because there's many under the umbrella of chemotherapy but the one that I was going to be having administered would reduce hair loss. And with that, did you make a decision on how you'd like to tackle that?

Absolutely not. No, not even with my experience and knowledge behind me. Excuse me. I actually went into denial. When you have a diagnosis, it throws you into emotional and your mental health it just it's absolute chaos and I actually went into denial because for myself personally I've had conversation with lots of ladies having the physical changes incoming tend to make you feel that the situation then becomes very real because you're looking at also one part of it's the diagnosis the other side of it is actually this is actually happening to me because I'm going to be looking at myself quite differently because of those physical changes the situation becomes very real. But you eventually did decide to try and have a wig fitted to use. You're thinking behind that at that

time? I did because I told my daughter who was then six at the time, we explained in a child friendly way as much as as best as we could, what the situation was going to be. And it explained to her that there would be physical changes on mummy, I'm going to lose my hair. And my daughter was absolutely terrified. So that kind of brought me back to a little bit of logical thinking. Although I still had my first session of chemotherapy and my hair came out. And at that point, there was this gentle intervention from my friends and family, knowing that in my logical state of mind, actually, I would want a wig. So they encouraged me gently to sort of

say you know you are losing your hair did you want to think about making yourself a wig at this point because we know that it's something that you would want to do and at that point I thought actually yes I will look for a wig or make a wig myself but because I was in denial and because I didn't want the situation to be real it would mean that I would be accepting what was happening to me I felt that I needed to go to another professional so I didn't have to deal with this myself though I could I didn't want to deal with it myself I needed that support to be able to accept what was happening in terms of the physical changes and the diagnosis overall. And so when you went, however, you had an upsetting experience.

Absolutely, yes, it was horrific. So I contacted Salon and I spoke to the lady, which was the owner on the telephone prior to the appointment and the consultation. And I explained to her on the phone that my hair because I've always had to explain to everybody it's a coping mechanism I suppose because I've throughout my life I've had to deal with I've got afro hair so I'm different so I did explain this to her my I've got different hair my hair's afro and again under the term afro there's it's an umbrella of lots of different textures. So, you know, I gave her quite in depth. I didn't tell her about my knowledge and experience around wigs or my hairdressing experience.

I just explained that I would need something of a natural texture, though I do smooth my hair out from a maintenance point of view because I'm a mum. I wash it, I straighten it and off I go because it's just easier in terms of the Afro hair type to smooth it out for myself personally. The lady didn't really say much on the telephone. There was very little empathy. I felt that I was on a conveyor belt in some respects, even on the telephone. The tone was very desensitized. And she said, yeah, yeah, that's fine. Just come in, have a consultation and we'll

go from there the phone call wasn't very long she didn't really listen to what I said around Afro hair she just agreed and said to come in for a consultation um the day that arrived um that I went in for a consultation I had to go in on my own um because my baby was quite small at the time my husband had driven me so I just took the he'd fallen asleep so I just thought okay it's fine I'll just go in by myself rather than having I would have liked to have had the support but it just made sense as a mum at that point I went into the hairdressers and I sat waiting for quite a long time and she called me in and into the private room into a private area she removed the bobble hat that I had on because I'd start to move the hair on the top without asking me she removed this

bobble hat so I was quite mortified at this point and the consultation was just horrific there was no like I said compassion no empathy whatsoever because the lady was very cold and desensitized to the situation. And she was very assuming. So we got into the consultation, which lasted minutes. She didn't show me anything. And I went back to explaining, you know, I would like the same biological fact that I've got. And she said, we don't do your type of hair. And so with that, how did it make you feel? Ashamed, I suppose, in some ways, isolated and just absolutely so upset. I was just really upset.

And I probably at this point as well should say that NHS England and NHS Wales, some salons do provide Afro hair wigs. Some do not. You came across somebody who did not, sadly. But you did decide to make your own, to go out and create wigs

and apply for one of the NHS wig provider contracts, which you're doing. Yes, that's correct. so I did yeah so after that experience that drove me and fired up my passion once more and I had to deal with the situation myself I made a wig for myself and over the times the time span of the 15 years that I've been in hair replacement I thought I've never really thought about taking on or applying for the NHS contract though lots of my clients had

said to me you really should for what you're doing you provide such a diverse range and I thought right yes actually I need to be able to help people and help these women that don't have the option and would like their biological hair type so therefore I applied for the NHS contracts at that point. I want to read some of the comments that have come in because it's obviously something people have thought about. I was in my 50s when I started chemotherapy. I had gorgeous hair past my waist. Choosing a wig was horrible, a mix of dread that I would lose my hair and hope that I wasn't. I mostly did lose it, but the wig was gorgeous, though not nearly as long as my hair. It was really important for me to feel like me and I didn't want the first thought anyone would have when they saw me that

I was on chemotherapy. So it worked. I'm very grateful for my wig. Another, when I started to lose my hair during chemotherapy last year, I quickly had my head shaved, then bought several turbans in various colours and styles. I found wigs too unnatural, but loved wearing my turbans. Loss of eyelashes and brows was far more traumatic and more noticeable. All grown back now, thank goodness. I am glad to hear it. From the Welsh Government, we did receive a statement that they say they take matters of health inequality very serious and that a number of improvements to data collection and analysis have been implemented across the NHS and Government, which includes collecting ethnicity data on death records and linking census data to other records for analysis. We continue to work with the NHS in Wales to determine how we can further capture data on ethnicity

as part of a person's core clinical record so that it's available whenever a person is accessing healthcare for whatever condition that they have. NHS England and Wales did not provide statements to us. But I suppose just as we come

to our last 15 seconds or so, Anastasia, you've managed to turn it around and provide now for other women. Absolutely, yes. And it's such a privilege to be a part of someone's journey, whether that's, you know, in terms of having to be able

to give them a biological Afro wig or a Caucasian type style of, you know, wig. And it is just an absolute privilege to be a part of their journeys. Anastasia Cameron, thank you so much for speaking to us. And I will be back with you at the same time tomorrow.

Thank you so much for your messages coming in about what your wig meant to you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Strong message here from BBC Radio 4. A brand new series, stress testing to destruction, the buzzwords and phrases used and abused by politicians. Pork barrel politics. Red state.

Purple state. Sports washing. Strong and stable. Flip-flopper. What do they actually mean? I'm Amanda Yannucci. And I'm Helen Lewis. And like a couple of disgraced stage magicians

recently kicked out of the magic circle, we'll be revealing all the verbal tricks of the trade. And singling out the worst examples of political doublespeak. Strong message here from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.