Woman's Hour - Childcare, Robin Wright on The Girlfriend, Life after a loved one's suicide

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

As of today, eligible working parents in England can access 30 funded hours of childcare – in term time only - for children aged nine months to four years. The government is doubling the amount of funded hours it offers, but there are concerns about availability and staffing. New research from Growth Spurt and Women in Data shows that more than half of parents can’t access the funding without restrictions, paying fees or meeting extra conditions. Nuala McGovern talks to Early Years Minister Stephen Morgan about the scheme and the challenges the government faces over nursery childcare. We're also joined by Joeli Brearley, founder and director of Growth Spurt, to discuss their research, along with a mother who shares her own experience of navigating the system as she returns to work. Actor Robin Wright joins Nuala in the studio to discuss directing and starring in new series The Girlfriend, based on the book by Michelle Frances. Best known for her award-winning role in House of Cards and much-loved movies such as Forest Gump and The Princess Bride, Robin plays Laura in the psychological thriller, a protective mother who is deeply suspicious of her son’s new girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cooke. As part of a new Woman's Hour series this week about life after suicide, we'll hear from three women who've had the experience of someone close to them taking their own life. Sam Southern’s husband Glenn took his life five years ago in 2020, leaving her with a blended family of six children, including two who were very young. She talks to reporter Jo Morris about the impact it had on her at the time and how she now runs a charity supporting other families impacted by suicide where she lives in Blackpool. For anyone affected by the issues in this series, there are links to information and support on the BBC Action Line website. Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Well, as you may have been hearing, starting today in England, eligible parents are now able to access 30 hours of childcare per week during term time, paid for by the government. It's for children aged nine months to four years, but there are concerns about places, waiting lists and retention of childcare staff. Now, if you are eligible, how has it been for you? I'd like to hear all your stories. 84844 is the number to text and in a moment you'll hear from the Minister

for Early Education Stephen Morgan on that initiative including the government's plans to attract more men to work in what has been traditionally a female workplace. It's also a workplace that has a high turnover of staff that recruitment and retention a real issue. So for those of you that have worked in childcare now

or formally, why is that so problematic to hold on to staff? You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note it's 0-3700-100-444. Now, one for some of the mothers out there.

How did you feel when you met your darling son's girlfriend? Hopefully more positive than Laura, the woman played by Robin Wright in her new TV series The Girlfriend. She also directs. And Robin will be here in the Woman's Hour studio this hour.

Also today, we will bring you the first part in a new Woman's Hour series where we will be looking at life after suicide. Today we'll hear an incredibly moving story from Sam. Her husband, Glenn, took his life five years ago. So that is all coming up. But I do want to begin with that story about working parents in England entitled to more hours of government-funded childcare. This is the final phase of the largest ever expansion of publicly funded childcare support. The scheme is expected to help hundreds of thousands of families with small children, but many face long waits for places at nurseries.

There are serious concerns, as I mentioned there, about staff shortages. We're going to hear from Jolie Burley, founder and director of growth's birth, about their new research, and it shows more than half of parents cannot access this new funding without restrictions. We'll also hear from Nicole. She's a parent who will share her experience using the scheme. But before that, I got to speak to early years Minister, Steve. Morgan this morning, and I started by asking him to clarify what the childcare funding is offering. So from today, life just gets easier for parents, for hundreds of thousands of parents across the

country as they start to access 30 hours of funded childcare. We've always been clear as a government that this is a promise we've wanted to keep and deliver for parents, and we've done this against the odds. So despite the inherited delivery challenges around workforce and places, we're on track to reach over half a million children across the country, ensuring that children across her country get the best start in life. So we will get into some of those issues that you raise as well. But what is free and what do parents need to cover? So there's lots of information available for parents to check if they're eligible

and to check their eligibility. They can do that via visiting the best start in life.gov.uk website. And what we will see is that parents will benefit from up to seven and a half thousand pounds per year through the 30 hours of funded government childcare. And this is going to make a huge difference to children's lives, but also support parents with more choices around balancing work and their family life and also easing pressures on grandparents to as well as delivering obviously improved access and quality early education for children. You will have seen, though, of course, some parents that are speaking out saying that they

cannot access the funded hours without restrictions or. additional charges, some even calling the new childcare offer a false promise. What would you say to that? Well, we know certainly that hundreds of thousands of parents are benefiting from the new scheme. We will give figures out on those that are benefiting later this term. 93% of parents have been able to secure their preferred place, which is absolutely fantastic. We inherited a pledge without a plan, and that's why we've set out a best start in life strategy in July of this year to make this process simpler for parents and we will work really hard with early years providers

to bring about a system that works for every parent across the country. I mean, some of the challenges when we look into the figures that are there already, the government has estimated about 70,000 extra places will be needed to accommodate the increase in demand and 35,000 more staff. But you don't have to go too far to hear from a nursery that says they have staff shortages, that they can't offer extra places. And parents are saying that they're facing long waiting lists.

You might have seen some of the stories this morning that we were hearing about women trying to, time when they have birth, for example, to try and be able to access that funding. This has been a really important priority of the government to deliver. This is a really important milestone that we've met today that hundreds of thousands of parents will benefit, over half a million children will benefit from the entitlement rollout. We've seen an increase in the number of providers delivering on the entitlement up by 5,800. We've seen an increase in people working in the sector by 18,000. And we're

increasing places across the country. And that's why I'm investing in school-based nurseries as well. The first of those are opening today in communities across our country to make sure that there are the places where they're most needed across the country. But you will agree with those figures. They are significant to say the least. Is there something, for example, that you are doing specifically to try and address that demand for spaces and staff? Absolutely. That's why we're investing in school-based nurseries. You want to make it more convenient for parents to access early education. The first of those 300 are starting to open this week as term starts. We will deliver more school-based nurseries across the country as

well. But also we've seen private and voluntary independent providers step up and deliver more places. 5,800 more providers are delivering the entitlement across at the country this year. There are, however, the government-funded hours, they cover term time only, and providers say that the funding rates, particularly for children aged three and four, are lower than the costs.

And so that means a lot of nurseries have to put up their prices. There's a University of Bath Study, for example, tracking fees over the past 18 months and say that they've risen fastest in the areas with the lowest government funding, which then, of course, could deepen regional inequalities. How is the government planning to,

address issues like that? Well, Bridgett Philipson, as the Secretary of State for Education, has made early education one of her top priorities is her top priority, and that's driven the change that we want to see across the country. That's why we've invested in a best start in life strategy to ensure that every child gets the best starting life. 9 billion pounds will be spent on early education by next year. We increased the expansion grant to help with the rollout from today to 75 million working with local authorities across the country to invest. invest in capital and those places that we need to see. On funding rates, that's something that we will review and work closely with the sector on

and make sure we've got fair distribution across the country. We also increased the early years pupil premium by 45% as well. So the money is going in to the system to bring about the change that we need. And today's milestone is an absolutely crucial part of the next stage of the reform that we want to see. I mean, what would you say to parents who haven't been able to get a spot? I mean, they feel there's a lot of, for example, restrictions. They have to do five mornings a week, for example, or five afternoons a week, that they can't mix and match to work with their schedule.

Well, we want to make the system much simpler, and that's what we're committed to doing in our best start-in-life strategy. We want to make sure that kind of all the different government schemes that exist are joined up, so we improve the experience for parents. But our latest polling does tell us that almost all, So 93% of parents who successfully applied for the child care have been able to get one of their top three preferences in terms of child care setting. So that's a real achievement down to the hard work of local authorities and providers.

There is an issue with retention of nursery staff. We talked about the number of staff that is needed in the future. We do know the number of childminders has been declining. Ofsted figures showing the numbers falling by 1,000 in the past year. There's also the research from the National Foundation for educational research says that the workforce issues could be a key barrier in delivering this offer to parents. How can you change the culture in order to encourage staff within the nursery to stay? Are there any specific concrete plans to do that? My sister's in early years

practitioner. She's worked in the sector for 30 years. She struggled at school. She'd admit that herself and then managed to get an apprenticeship and has then flown in her career and absolutely loves working in early years. She's been there for 30 years. And these are the sorts of stories I hear up and down the country when I visit nurseries on a very regular basis and the meetings that I have with those that work in the sector too. And that's why I'm really proud that in our best starting life strategy published in July. We've set out some of the things that we will do to tackle those workforce issues and retain people in the sector. That means investing in incentive schemes to get people in the sector and to keep them there. That means investing in

good career pathways for people that choose to work in the sector. I want to increase the men working in the sector to encouraging more good quality apprenticeship schemes as well. So a range of things that we want to do to make sure that we've got people that are committed working the sector and delivering the change that we want to see. And encouraging more men to work in the sector, how are you going to do that? Well, a range of things. I mean, currently it's as little as 3% of men working in the sector. And through our do something big campaign, which we reset recently, we want to make sure that

this is an attractive offer for men. So there's some campaign materials, communications, information. going out and recognising that many dads have the skills to be childcare workers and encourage them to consider this as a career. The issue often is low pay. We know it's often women in the sector, as you will of course be very aware with. Is there any specific plan to try and increase that salary? I mean, obviously as a government, we've increased the national living wage and absolutely alive to these issues. And pay is important, but so is the recognition and reward.

And that's why some of the measures I mentioned earlier all make a huge difference. And that's why a priority of mine and the Secretary of State has been to reset that relationship with the sector to demonstrate that it's such a hugely important role in our society, in our country. You know, children need the support of good quality early years practitioners. And I've been very much sort of getting that message out and about from the visits that I do across the country. Early years minister, Stephen Morgan there. Well, is it making a difference? 8444 if you'd like to get in touch. Lucy in London did. She says today my daughter Annie starts an extra day of nursery because of.

of the free childcare hours. It's still expensive, though, £650 a month. We just had another daughter, and I don't understand how people are affording two children in nursery. That's to come next year. Thanks, Lucy, and congratulations on your new daughter.

Here's another. No one talks about how expensive childcare still is. My three-year-old is today entitled to 30 hours, up from 15 hours last term. Our bill has decreased just £250 this month, down from 900 per month, but that's just for four days a week. They've raised fees across all ages

to account for the shortfall in funding. Also, the funding is only term time. It's basically nowhere near free, keep them coming 84844. I'm joined now by Jolie Brearley, founder and director of Growth Spurt. They have new research out, along with women in data,

that shows that more than half of parents can't access this new funding without restrictions. Jolie, welcome back to Women's Hour. I mean, line I took from the minister, he says life gets easier for eligible parents today. Would you agree? Yes, for the vast. majority of parents' costs are coming down. Our data is telling us that. But there does seem to be

a bit of a postcode lottery and there seems to be a bit of a nursery lottery. So we are hearing from some parents that are saying their costs are only decreasing marginally. Others are saying that there's really no cost saving whatsoever. And in part, this is because nurseries are not being funded properly to deliver those places. That's what nurseries would tell you. And parents do not expect the consumables charge and for 56% of parents paying for food, nappies, sun cream is a condition on accessing a funded place. So one in four parents told us that they're paying £15 a day or more in a consumables charge. Others are telling us that the number of hours that they can use funding per day is only about four or five. They have to pay full price for the

other hours. Some are saying that they can't get those 30 hours of funding. Maybe they can get 20 or 10, even though they are eligible. But we also know that Nula costs are actually increasing outside of that funding. So over the last six months, on average costs have increased by 10%. And a third of parents are telling us they're going to increase again over the next six months. So the average cost for a full-time childcare place is now between £800 and £1,000 a month. That is not an insignificant amount of money, particularly if you have more than one child in childcare. With the consumables that you mentioned there in your study, so that's lunch, nappy, sunscreen, but was that always something that parents had to pay for?

Yes, they did for three years and above. So now that you can access this from nine months, the parents that are coming into the child care system are fresh and not used to these charges. And the scheme has been misssold by the previous government and continues to be missold by this government, parents are expecting 30 free hours a week of childcare and that is absolutely not what they are getting. What would you call it 30 funded hours? Yeah, we prefer the term funded but also it's not 30 hours because the vast majority of parents need childcare all year round so it works out at about 22 hours per week. Because it's only during term time. Which brings me to the

minister mentioning that more nurseries are being opened on the same site as schools when we were talking about some of the places and figures. How helpful is that for parents? They will only be open during term time. It's not hugely helpful for the majority of parents because most parents do not work term time only. There are only very few jobs which require that. So parents are really going to scrabble to find child care outside of term time and that's going to put extra pressure particularly on women because it's nearly always the mother that is responsible for the care when it comes to these challenges. Let me bring in Nicole. Jolie. She's a HR human resources consultant in education. You have Nicole's seven-year-old twins

and an 11-month-old. With older children, you've been involved in accessing childcare for a number of years now. What about the latest offer? How are you finding it? So the latest offer is obviously, you know, an enhancement compared to previous years. Unfortunately that currently I do work term time only, partly because of previous. issues with childcare, having twins, you know, in the summer holidays. So I'd actually completely changed industry to be able to move into term time only anyway. But the new funding, being 30 hours, is obviously less than a full-time nine to five at 37. And it completely, you know, disregards the kind of travel time that you would need to and from work as well and kind of just

the logistics of, you know, getting to nursery. If you've got other children, the school runs factored into that. So whilst I've been able to access it, I return to work in two weeks and I've actually done a further reduction of hours. So instead of going back to my contracted hours of 9 till 5, I'll actually be returning 9 till 3. And the cost of that actually is that I lose over £6,000 of my salary on the hours that I'm now no longer working. But it's more economic to do that rather than pay for those hours that, you know, I'd have to find childcare for. It's kind of, as I was talking about, the mix and match with the minister, like it's a jigsaw, I suppose, that you're trying to put together.

Your youngest is due to start nursery in just a few weeks. How easy was it to find a place? It was actually very challenging. So it was on my ninth provider that I managed to secure a space. Some places did have spaces, but they were so rigid in what they could offer. You know, they might only have Mondays and Tuesdays. As parents, you're also factoring in when bank holidays fall. so that you lose those Mondays bank holidays and don't always get full pay for them.

And actually a lot of them with me looking at term time only had a 30% uplift in term time only places, which again defeats the point of me making those savings on not working school holidays, which I may add, you know, whilst it sounds great me work in term time only, the majority of those weeks are actually made of unpaid leave. So that results in a further £5,000 loss of an annual salary overall. So whilst I'm not paying a childcare provider, I actually lose over £11,000 a year in childcare or in salary to not pay childcare fees. Would you prefer to have, let's say, free slash funded childcare during outside of term time and work more?

I think absolutely I enjoy my job. It's very rewarding. I am very much career-minded and I do feel like my career's taken a blow. I don't think necessarily there's a one-size-fits-all and think probably flexibility in how childcare is applied would be beneficial, not just for me, but for everyone to suit all the different types of working patterns and it would just free up different options for families

to find a way that work for them. There's a lot of people getting in touch. Let me read a couple of the messages coming in, Jolie and Nicole. Anna Bristol says my 15-week pregnant daughter just messaged me this. The nursery tour cancelled today. I'm so worried about there being no space as three others have come back to me with no room for February 2027 that I've had to pay a £50 deposit to go on a wait list

for a nursery that I've not even visited yet. What do you make of that, Jolie? We are hearing stories like this all the time that there are no spaces for a couple of years. And, you know, parents are having to put their names. down before they've even conceived a child, which is absolutely crackers. We've heard horrific stories about women putting their names down and having to pay a deposit when they're less than three months pregnant and then experiencing pregnancy loss and losing

that deposit. You know, parents are really struggling in this current climate. And we know that women are moving their C-section date or asking to be induced early in order to fit with this scheme because there are only three dates a year from which you can get the funding, if you miss one of those dates by a few days, it can cost you four to five thousand pounds. So, you know, parents are making really big monumental decisions based on this not working. I did see one of those stories. I think the lady's name was Rachel Derbyshire who had twins who decided the delivery date, which was to be brought forward to the end of March as

opposed to the beginning of April, to hit that funding and to be managed to get it. But they must be, or you tell me, Jolie, outliers that are going to those what some would consider extreme measures? I'm not sure they are, Neela, no, because if you're going to have a baby on the second of April and know that it's going to cost you £5,000 rather than having that baby on the 1st of April, I think anybody in their right mind would want to move that day to day earlier. You know, we heard as well, particularly from Nicole there, about the rigidity of some nurseries on you can only do Monday, Tuesday or whatever that might be. I saw some other stories only five mornings a week or five afternoons, whatever it might be.

Why are nurseries limiting that number of funded hours or having that rigidity despite people being eligible for 30 hours a week? Nurseries are having to get really creative with how they use this funding because the funding isn't enough. to deliver those places. And so they're playing around with the income and that puts pressure on parents. So, you know, as we've said, it means that they are either saying you can only use 20 hours of funding

or you can only use four hours a day of the funding. And then that means that they're paying a full rate for the other hours. So it makes up that shortfall in costs. Here's another, sorry, message that came in, Jolie. Have you finished your point there? Forgive me, was I stepping on you. I was just going to say this obviously puts a perfect.

on the workforce because when there isn't enough funding it means that you can't pay the workforce handsomely for doing such an important job and so and it's women that are doing this job well there's one comment in relation to that from sue she says I worked for 16 years in a school nursery education on childcare I know that the paying conditions in no way match the skills and level of responsibility needed to do the job properly when we were in charge of admissions at our nursery we were aware that if we had a male member of staff a number of parents would not send their children. That is interesting. That's related to the comment by the minister on that they're trying to attract more men into the workforce, which has been traditionally female, 84844, if you'd

like to get in touch on that. But one more. The new policy exacerbates a policy that is already unfair, says this listener. We're not eligible for the free hours as my husband earns just over the threshold. I believe that's 100,000. Yes, we are lucky in that sense, but I earn well under it. We've lots of friends who have a much bigger household income than us, but who are still eligible. This is because eligibility is not based on household income, which would be fair, but if one person earns over the threshold, regardless of what the other earns, it heavily penalises mothers who work in lower paid, lower skilled roles. Jolie? I mean, it absolutely does, and we hear this a lot, that the man in the household and heterosexual couple will earn just over

£100,000, so they have to pay the full amount for childcare. It's so extortionally expensive, it doesn't then make sense for the mother to work. So she's the one that takes the career hit. She falls out of the workforce in order to look after the child and that, of course, exacerbates the gender pay gap. Let us leave it there for now. Jolie Burley, founder and director of Growth Sport, formerly of pregnant then screwed.

Thanks very much, Jolie. And also to Nicole telling us her story. Best to look as you go back to work in a couple of weeks' time. Now, joining me in studio next is the actor and director, Robin Wright. We know Robin from iconic roles over the years from the Princess Bride to Jenny and Forrest Gump and Claire Underwood, of course, in House of Cards.

That is a show that helped change the face off TV. You might not have really known that that was, what do we say, the juggernaut that really launched this little-known streaming service called Netflix, this big budget, bingeable series. Before that, it was all box sets. She won a Golden Globe for that amazing performance. But Robin first cut her TV,

directing on that show too which you might know if you were like me used to watch the credits afterwards and she directs and stars in a new series The Girlfriend on Amazon Prime video so this is a psychological thriller and it's based on the book

of the same name by Michelle Francis Robin plays a protective I'll use that word for now Mother Laura who is suspicious of her son Daniel's new girlfriend Cherry played by Olivia Cook as you can hear in this clip from the show This is your ex-boyfriend, isn't it?

The man you punched, isn't it? You know, I'm going to have to tell Daniel everything. About all of it. So we're keeping secrets. Is that a threat? I want you to stay away from my son. Aw, my two favorite ladies. You forget something, Mom?

What are you dismissed, Cherry? It's very tense. Robin Wright, welcome to the Woman's Hour Studio. Thank you very much. I have to say, I watched a few of the episode, one after another. It is gripping, gorgeous, great music. But I would let a few yelps out of me every so often while watching it and alarm the household. I have to say, it is a great show.

Told from two perspectives, let's get into this. So we have Laura, who you play, and we have The Girlfriend, Cherry, played by Olivia Cook. We see it from the two perspectives, which is in the book, and we sometimes see that in a book. But how is that to direct and translate it onto the screen? Well, you know, if you take the theory that you're the hero of your own story, of your own perspective, but you're bound to be the villain in someone else's perspective. And these are the ping pongs that happen throughout the series.

And their conflict, Laura and Cherry, is that they love the same young man. Yes. For different reasons, right? And of course, Cherry wants to better her life, so that's her drive. And Laura's obsession is about dealing with loss and grief, and the loss becomes the overly protective mother of her son. So it's this push and pull. and what starts as suspicion and jealousy between these two women,

it finally just, it turns to chaos. I have to say, there's loads of twists. I haven't finished the whole series yet. I've watched the three that you directed the first three. Correct. Which is wonderful. But I was thinking, as I was watching all this, there's a lot going on. I should say also Laura and her darling son,

very wealthy and we kind of see it in London, and you're down in Marbeah and then Cherry is kind of from a different social class which we can get into as well, but entering this world and trying to keep up in some ways. But the challenge of telling that story, but what about directing yourself in something that's so intense? How does that work?

I kept on thinking like, oh, how does she do that? Or did she see that and then go back and check it? How is it? Yes, to the latter. But what's great being in that driver's seat as you can be within the scene as character, exchanging dialogue with your actor,

but you're also looking at their performance while performing yourself and going, okay, we need that beat. We're going to do another take after this. I'm thinking ahead. But what was so funny with the kids, I call them the kids, Lori Davidson and Olivia Cook. I'd be like, are the kids on set?

yet. And I kind of prep them. I just said, I hope it doesn't throw you, because I don't want you to see that I'm watching you as a director while I'm acting with you. But being in that position, I could call cut on myself. Like, oh, that was terrible. We have to go again, no, Robin, no. I'm just thinking of the mental gymnastics of that. It is a little bit of gymnastics, but it's almost more like a graph of algebra. You know, so you're doing that kind of math, going, I know I need to do this and this beat. And then I do call cut, have to run back to Video Village, watch playback, make sure not only the others, but myself gave the performance that I know I'm going to need multiple variations in the editing room seven months down the

line, you know. But I think, from what I've read, you're quite hard on yourself. You said that you don't consider yourself a great actor, which is more than surprising. And I'm wondering, are you at least a bit more compassionate as a director to yourself? Maybe because I've been acting for so many years. But you see the masters. And there's a handful of them. Let's just say that. And they are, they're special. And they have this ability to transform and emulate and embody a completely different human being. And I wish I had that knack. Maybe they sell it on Amazon as a vitamin. Is there anybody you'd like to mention in that category? Any female actor that stands out to you? You think about, you know, Merrill Streep's career. There's so

many, Tilda Swinton. She's one of my favorites. You know, Vanessa Red Gray. You've got, they've got Gravitas. It's a different kind of animal. And directors? Is there anybody who has influenced you massively in that way, perhaps, that you talk about Meryl Streep and Tilda Swinton? You know, he's no longer with us. And what a genuine, lovely man he was, is Anthony Mangella and I had the opportunity to do a project with him and watching his directorial style I resonated with i.e. He wasn't just throwing out adjectives, descriptive

words where you have to conjure a story to produce that emotion from one word. He would give you a story, a little novella. Picture yourself here. Imagine you're seven and you start to embody what that felt like at seven years of age. And then you start to surge with that emotion that is needed for that take. And I thought that's the way to do it because that's how actors can find what they need to bring, you know, elevate and bring to the screen. What a wonderful insight. You give us a snapshot of what it might like to be an A-lister, actor, for example, or indeed director. You know, when I was watching the girlfriend, a little phrase came to me.

Maybe, is it Irish in origin? I'm not sure. A daughter is a daughter all her life. A son is a son until he meets his wife. True words. Couldn't have been spoken. I mean, it is very true. Are you a mother? I'm not a mother.

I'm a daughter. You're a daughter. Okay, so you know. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting one. And you would hope in some ways it would change. And it's probably a Western construct in lots of. of ways, probably in other parts of the world. It might be the eldest son that's expected

to be a son for all his life, so to speak. But I thought it was a really apt phrase for Laura when it comes to this particular character. And I'm wondering, you know, you have a son and a daughter yourself. And do you, did you have that feeling of loss when they were ready to fly the nest? They didn't really fly the nest. They never left. which lots of people it will resonate with them but it will robin because this is a thing

particularly in modern life that children don't leave until a much older age and as I was looking into stats yesterday particularly young men yeah it's definitely different and it's that cusp of millennial and gen X, Gen X, Gen Z

X, Y, Z they're right on the cusp and I think they just graduate into young adulthood, direction, purpose. What do I really want to do? What am I good at? In their 30s where we had to do it before 21. Yeah, yeah.

A lot of people, it was different. You kind of, if you were going to college, that would have been the break, so to speak. And you wouldn't really come back. No. And you didn't have the parents' funds. Yes. So you had to pack your suitcase and go get a job.

Yeah, really interesting. So your children are grown up now. They're in their 30s. But I was reading over the weekend, Robin, that you have taken psilocybin. Am I pronouncing that correctly? Silocybin. Silocybin, excuse me,

which I suppose most people would call it like mushrooms in Costa Rica and the US. As you wanted to go on this journey to try and figure out how to give some breathing space to your two children. Tell me more. Well, you go in with an intention, and that was my intention.

Because my kids and I are so close. And I think we have an incredible connection. And it's very different with son, mom, daughter, mom. And I love that connection. And I just wanted to feel something in myself where I could sever that chord that was so taught that was stressing me out, the worry, the concern. and still love and give and support from afar but not be tortured on the inside. Did it work? Yeah.

Did it? So tell me about that feeling then, that transformation. Well, you know, you do about a month, once a week, an hour-long Zoom or in-person therapy session with your guide. And you get to the bottom of why this intention. And they prepare you and they say, you know, it may not come up. What you think... You're going in for. And you know what?

Even though it worked, other stuff came up. And what it is, it's plant medicine. This is not street-grade mushrooms. Let's go trip on a beach. This is serious plant medicine that's been cocktail to the individual, depending on what they've learned for that month. So it's either heart opening, mind expanding, you know, when people are guarded from trauma or whatever.

So there's all different variations. And that's why I did it a couple of times because I wanted to go deeper. And it's layers that you shed of old trauma that you're holding on to. I thought it was so interesting because I read that about you just as I was also watching your story as Laura. That was in the United States in Costa Rica, I should say. I know it is illegal for those particular drugs to be taken here

in the UK. You are living in the UK now. We can talk about that as well. But staying with the mother aspect for a moment, you did say you had huge regret that you weren't hard enough on your kids growing up. Yeah, I wasn't. I was a baby. You know, I was pregnant with my first when I was 24. I didn't know who I was. And you're basically saddled with, you need to let these two children survive and it's all up to you. So not knowing yourself and discovering yourself as you're raising two infants, I didn't know how to be tough enough, you know, do the tough love, punish for things that were wrong to set, you know, a stage for them to learn.

You can't do that anymore. Because I was afraid that they wouldn't like mommy anymore. Yeah, well, I'm sure lots of people will tell. I totally understand that. Interesting probably for you as well to know that your children are almost a decade older than you were when you had them. It's quite something. How are you finding living in the UK? I love it. You know, we just kind of wrapped post-production on the girlfriend not too long ago. And I just wanted to stay here in the country because I love the English countryside. So why not just stay and take a breather? Just take some time off. It's summer for me finally, you know. Yeah, summer, I have to say, is great in England. You do have a new project called Bingo, I believe, a love story between an older woman and a younger man. We're looking forward to that.

Maybe you'll come back and tell us about it. Oh, if it goes, I will. I would love to. Well, thank you very much for joining us, Robin. Thank you. The girlfriend, available to watch. I have to binge on the next few episodes. Prime video, I think I might have to also wait for those last episodes

on the 10th of September when it's coming out. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now, I want to go to the first part in a new woman's hour series and this is where we'll be looking at life after suicide. We've spoken to three women

who've had the experience of someone close to them taking their own life. They speak very frankly and about living through this life-changing event but they also reflect on the long-term impact

of death by suicide both for themselves and other family members. Sam Sutheran's husband, Glenn, took his life five years ago in 2020. She was left with a blend family of six children, including two who were very young. In the early days, Sam thought she wouldn't survive the shock of losing him.

At the time, she couldn't find any local support. So now she runs a charity supporting other families impacted by suicide where she lives in Blackpool. Our reporter Joe Morris went to meet Sam and also attended the bereavement suicide group that Sam set up. But first, she asked her what it was like in that early period after Glenn died. There's too much silence around suicide. I call it the silent S.

The silent S? Yeah, that's suicide, isn't it? Have you ever noticed people, they'll say something, then they'll go, suicide. The pain, physical pain, was something I've never experienced. Like I felt like my heart was breaking. And the disbelief that something like that, I remember waking up with a shock, I think, for at least the first six months. But, yeah, I just remember we had all the Father's Day gifts and stuff for the Sunday,

and he was gone. And it seemingly come from nowhere, which is, I suppose, a shocker of suicide. We couldn't get in. He doubled locked all the doors. and then my eldest son, broken, and obviously we found him. Tell me about Glenn. Glenn was a larger than life, a lovable character, who was kind, beautiful person, great dad.

He was a good man. How old were you when Glenn died, Sam? I was 41. He was 14. He was a good man. 46. How long had you been together for? It'd have been about 11 years, yeah. So it's six children, so kind of blended family? Yeah. Together we had two and then I had three and then Glenn had his eldest daughter but we all were together. The tribe, it was chaos. The business was really struggling and he'd hidden so much but I didn't really know the extent of what he'd

been hiding until he died. And it happened quite quickly. And I was at a place where I finally felt like I'm not struggling in proved like I had done in previous relationships and we kind of were a team. And I thought, I never expected that. He loved the family life. I don't think he was in a place where he could realise the impact.

It would have on us all. So that's the six of them together. So how old was your youngest? He was two when he died. He was a baby. And that picture I got that made so I could, we used to have a quite big hallway. I could take the other ones down and I had just like that one picture until things calm down. Because people are different.

And individually I found it difficult to hear his voice and videos. Whereas Glenn's eldest daughter, she played videos all the time. And I remember it used to shock me. But you just kind of have to find your own balance, you know, between your own family about how you navigate that. So it's a picture of you and Glenn with your... Yeah, the two youngest. So, yeah, two and four.

Everyone was struggling differently. And I had that to go and stare at for what I see. I feel there's a lot of shame around suicide and guilt. Did you feel shame? Early on, definitely, I mean, it's, you felt embarrassed. I didn't understand it. And I did feel shame. But I think that's what actually, in some respects, kills people, is the shame.

And if I couldn't speak about it, then how was I ever going to help somebody else? So where are we off to? We're off to the... Sybicide Breedman support group What should we do once every four weeks? Everybody's got a story, haven't they? And it's just a sense of being in the wrong... The gone wrong club that we all can't get out of,

but we actually need each other. When Glenn died, Sam, how did you tell the children? What happened? I mean, how do you tell children something like that? Oh, my eldest son, obviously, found him, and his eldest daughter was there too. They were kind of telling me, I suppose, because they were screaming down the phone. My middle daughter, she was sat with me, and it was all coming through on loudspeaker, so she could hear what I could hear. My youngest daughter and my youngest son came back on the Sunday.

They stayed out for the night, which has never happened. So that must have been strange. I'll never forget it. We were all sat round, and there must have been 15 of us. I think social distancing had gone right out of the window. I just remember she walked in, and she just said, as a five-year-old, she said, who's died? And then obviously she couldn't see her dad.

So she said, is my daddy dead? And I said, yeah, and she ran out of the front door, and it was a gorgeous day. She sat on the phone and she was just screaming screaming because she was sat between my legs and I was rocking her and she was just being

sick that projectile sick and just from the shock and that went on for a good six months like these massive screaming fits and I didn't know what to do with my youngest son who was two

it was very different No, so he'd ask for Daddy and I would say Daddy's not coming back, Daddy's died. And he kind of would accept that, but then wouldn't because he couldn't understand it. So it would be a reoccurring conversation. And I think the hardest parts were with him where you'd see how it was affecting him is when my dad would phone me and he would ask to speak to him thinking it was his dad because I'd say hi dad and he'd say I speak to my daddy

it makes me feel really emotional thinking back to that time actually and you can't fix it did you feel angry all the time I felt like he'd abandoned me and left two very young, vulnerable babies that deserved the dad

I would cry in the shower I'd try and hide myself away to cry because you don't want to upset anybody but then sometimes I just couldn't hold it in. It just broke us all separately and they were very worried about me I know like the old ones were so it was definitely one of the darkest times

and I think if I'd have had somebody say to me this is how you feel this is quite normal I think I'd have been relieved because I genuinely thought I was going mad but I look back and I think nobody should have to navigate that you know we were all traumatised

and why isn't there somebody that thinks of this because if he'd have been murdered we'd have had victim support and different things and it's just not looked at like that when it comes to suicide what kept you going them two babies you're two youngest

yeah and how old were they at that time two and five they kept me putting one foot in front of the other I had to I didn't want to I couldn't look at him for the first few weeks

and I felt like I'd failed them because I hadn't kept the dad here Did you feel like you could be a mum? No I think I saw so much of him in them and it was too painful to see whereas now I actually find that peaceful

My name, you know that I'm sad I'm the solace manager. I started this group because I didn't find anything locally for us and it came on the back end of us doing the peer-to-peer support. I don't know why I keep talking into this spoon. I want us to share a positive thing from this week and I also want you to give me one word that comes up negative to your thoughts from losing somebody.

I get angry I suppose my emotion is anger that I can struggle with frustration is my I suppose the emotion that I feel most is guilt

I think I feel guilty that I didn't see his red flags or could tell that there was anything wrong with him because I'd have sat out him till I'd squashed him if I did

How quickly, Sam, did you become aware of the social stigma that can be around suicide? Pretty much from the onset. People genuinely did hide. Hide from you? Yeah. Hide from me. Yeah, I am. And I'm thinking how ridiculous.

But that's because I'm more confident addressing it now. They would hide, yeah, down like aisles. That was always a bit of a weird one. What, in the supermarket? Yeah. And I think it's the guilt part because people always feel. One of the questions, which I got asked a lot, and I think, so why? Why did he do that then?

Whereas if it was a car accident... What does it feel like, Sam, when someone has asked you that? Why did he do that? It's painful. They're in a mental crisis when you take their own life. So the wire's gone with them. And then that question is thrown to the loved ones, like, we're meant to know all the answers. What do people need if they express that a loved one died by suicide?

What's a useful response from someone? I suppose I walk into people now that have just lost people within 48 hours. So I will always say, I'm so sorry and I can't fix it. It's a shit show. but whatever you need I'm here my brother took his own life Stephen and that was 11 years ago

this mayor just come so that's why I come here and meet you wonderful people and one thing I've done positive this week was I'm rebuilding my relationships back up with my daughters I reached out on social media

because I was so lonely and isolated and it was people that were writing back to me and COVID saying I've been there and you will get through this that got me through and that's when I realised how crucial peer support was. You'd worked for the NHS as a nurse. How surprised were you that there was no support? I was just gobsmacked, which would be the word, I suppose.

We got to a point where we definitely needed some therapy. I was in a position where we'd. could afford to pay for it. So we all, as the old ones, got private counselling and it helped. It really did help. But not everybody can get that, and I think that's the point. So in those early days, did anyone offer you support? Were you signposted anywhere?

No, nothing. I remember saying to the police, is this it? And my police officer was genuinely lovely And I saw more of him than most people do But he said, yeah There was nothing And then, to top it, the house got burgled And the police were great

And they offered me Victim support And I was furious So I was like I cannot believe you offer you off, for my victim support. But when my husband died by suicide, you all come and go

and we're just left to get on with it. So you set up solace? Yeah. Did you name it that? Yes. That's a place of peace and tranquility. And I think if we can just get a little bit of that, we offer anything, really.

Anything? Anything. A helping hand. We can support financially. we can help support with coroners, getting counselling. And it can be as brutal as actually helping clean an area where no uncomfortable cleaning too, because something's happened there.

How many families are you supporting in Blackpool? Well, we support 76 people. That's on our books, but I'd say it's probably about 20-odd families. That's a lot, isn't that? It is a lot. As young as one, up to 80. Before it happened, did anyone ever notice it? Suicide?

Yeah. No. I didn't know. And the other thing is, I ask every four night. Am I right to laugh? Is that? That always upsets me. Does anyone else feel guilty for laughing?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I used to you. How are your kids now? I think they're all doing amazing. We're thriving, not just surviving. Is there a before and after Sam?

Yeah. So before Sam would never have sat doing this. Wouldn't she? No, definitely not. No. I think he's given me the after Sam is, he's given me the strength to fight for what I believe in.

Right, go well. Thanks, Sam. Thank you. See you, well. We'll go for coffee and a walk. Thank you. All right. Be ready to have it.

Yeah, flowers. Oh, gorgeous. No good. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Think about your garden once at a time.

It was just for the weeds now. It's back to weedless. When Glenn died, I was very, it's back to weedless. When Glenn died, I was very, much in love with him and just because you move forward, that love doesn't go away. It's unconditional love, isn't it? I was thinking about last night, you know, why do you do this? And I do think when you love somebody so much as I did and do, where do you channel that?

And I think that's where I channel everything into what I do now, because I've got to put that love somewhere. Thanks so much to Sam for talking to us. Sam will be starting the Battle of Hope Suicide Walk in Blackpool next week for Suicide Prevention Week walking with her children in memory of her husband, Glenn. And thanks very much also to Joe Morris, our reporter. On Wednesday's program, you can hear the experience of Eloise whose father took his own life when she was 14.

And if you have been affected by any of the issues discussed please do go to the BBC Action Line website for help and for support. I want to let you know what's happening on tomorrow's programme. I'm going to be speaking to the Welsh actress Eve Miles. She's starring in a new thriller The Guest. It centres on the toxic relationship between a successful business owner and her employee. We also have author Amy Gray. That's a new biography of Scotland's first and largely forgotten woman MP,

Kitty Atoll, and addresses the many contradictions of the pioneering politician. And you might have heard Diana DeFries and Karen Constantine on Friday speak about their experiences of forced adoption and why they've been campaigning for years for a government apology. Well, I'll be speaking to Cathy, whose mother Jean was 16 when she was sent to a mother and baby home in 1956 and was forced to hand over her baby for adoption. But just in my last minute, I want to go back to some of your messages

that have been coming in, particularly in relation to childcare. Here's one. There's a lot of negativity about what I think is. for some is a real help with childcare at last. It's a lot better than when I was bringing up my son. I had one child because I could only afford one child and we do have to make these choices, I'm afraid, unless everyone is willing to pay a lot more taxes

to deliver free state-run childcare. Renata says I worked as a deputy manager and a nursery and while providing a high quality of care, it was incredible how understaffed, underpaid and overworked we were. The pay was so abysmal that I am now having to change careers. Fiona in Wiltshire says I ran my nursery for 23 and a half years but decided to close in April after two room seniors both left to pursue alternative jobs about recruitment and retention.

And Miriam says, my son used to love having a male practitioner at the nursery in relation to Stephen Morgan's comments about recruiting men. When we used to pick him up from kindergarten, there was always a gaggle of boys hanging around the male of the staff members. They were in awe of him and it is just so important to have male role models.

Whatever your thoughts on the programme, we do always love to hear from you. And thank you so much for sending them in today. 84844 is always our text number. I will talk to you again tomorrow right here. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Kate Lamble and from BBC Radio 4.

This is derailed, the story of HS2. It's the tale of a railway which divided Britain. An ambitious idea brought down by political reality and what it tells us about why we struggle to build a better future. We'll hear the inside story of how the dream of HS2 was created before it morphed into a political nightmare and national punchline. The absurd spectacle of £100 million bat tunnel holding up the country's single biggest infrastructure project.

Through backroom deals, bat tunnels and the reality of power in the UK. Listen first on BBC Sounds.