Woman's Hour - Childhood epilepsy, Pre-loved fashion, Mary Magdalene music, Women only societies

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

Childhood epilepsy, medical treatment, and the power of a mother and son working together. Filmmaker Emma Matthews and her son Louis Petit have created a new film, along with his father Chris Petit. D is for Distance focuses on Louis’s own experience of severe, drug‑resistant epilepsy. He suffered hundreds of seizures, frightening drug withdrawals and years of uncertainty — until they travelled to the Netherlands to get medical cannabis. Their film opens today at the British Film Institute in London. Emma and Louis join Anita Rani, along with Professor Finbar O'Callaghan from the Epilepsy Research Institute.The sale of second hand clothing is forecast to rise this year to £217bn globally. Here in the UK it's estimated the market has grown to more than £7bn, and nearly one in four fashion transactions. So why are women turning to resale sites like Vinted and Depop? Consumer expert Kate Hardcastle, founder of Insight With Passion, tells us where this growth is coming from and discusses future trends. Composer Tansy Davies tells Anita about The Passion of Mary Magdelene, which has just premiered at The Barbican in London and will be broadcast on BBC Radio 3 on Saturday 4 April at 10.30pm. The piece tells the story of the crucifixion through Jesus’s most important female follower and the first person to witness the resurrection. Tansy talks about why she wanted to focus on Mary and examines the conflicting views about Mary Magdalene.In her new book Herlands, BBC global reporter Megha Mohan explores the history of women-led communities both physically and virtually, from co-housing for older women in Paris to the controversial feminist online trolls of South Korea. Megha travelled around the globe to hear from the women who created and care for these communities, which offer refuge, resilience, and connection to the land. Producer: Melanie Abbott Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour with Anita Rani. Good morning and welcome to the program on Good Friday,

when Christians around the world will be reflecting on the life and death of Christ. And we have music on the program from composer Tansy Davis, whose new work looks at the crucifixion story through the eyes of Mary Magdalene. Emma Matthews has made a tender, poetic and thoughtful film about her son, Louis' journey from getting severe epilepsy at the age of time. and the horrendous toll it took to heading to the Netherlands for treatment with medical grade cannabis. Both mother and son are here to share their story. And women's only spaces, women's only communities, do you live in one?

What do your women's only groups mean to you? Have you thought about buying a big house in retirement and moving in with your girlfriends? Maybe you've spoken about it. Well, journalist Megamohan has written a book, Herlands, where she explores women-only communities through history and even visits a few. She'll be here to tell us all about them, but I would like to hear about your experience of them and your thoughts on them. Why those groups are important to you? Did you go to an all-girls school? Have you been on a women's only retreat? Do you make sure you get together with your female friends on a regular basis? Tell me the importance of that in your life.

Also, vintage or even pre-loved? We're going to be hearing about the boom in second-hand clothes. Are you someone who sells, buys? What's been your best second-hand clothing purchase? Maybe you're wearing. it today. Whatever your thoughts and opinions and feel free to get in touch with anything here on the program in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website and of course you can WhatsAppers on 0300-100-444. That text number once again, 84844. But first, we're hearing an extraordinary story about childhood epilepsy, medical treatment and the power of a mother and son working together. filmmaker Emma Matthews and her son Louise Petit have created a new film along with his father, Chris Petit.

The film focuses on Louis's experience of severe drug-resistant epilepsy. He suffered hundreds of seizures, frightening drug withdrawals and years of uncertainty until medical cannabis finally transformed his life. Their film is released by the BFI, the British Film Institute today, and Emma hopes it will spark debate about medical cannabis use in epilepsy. and I'm delighted to say they're both here in the studio. Emma and Louie, welcome. You had a screening of the film last night. By the way, congratulations. I watched it.

So thoughtful, so tender. I've got so many questions, which is perfect. How was watching it with a group of people last night? We've had a few previews. And also it's been to a lot of international film festivals all last year and has an amazing reaction. And, yeah, I mean, everyone is always incredibly meaningful. moved and positive about it.

And a lot of people with epilepsy often come up and talk about their epilepsy and often say to Louis that they've, you know, they've never told anyone about having epilepsy before. So Louis's ability to talk about it and be open about it, I think is bringing hope, I mean, I'm hoping and the film will bring more awareness of a disease which is not spoken about, you know. In the film, we've, you see lots of footage of Louie growing up. And also we see footage quite early on in the film of him having seizures. You were asked to film them from doctors. Can you take us back to when Louis first became unwell, when he was first diagnosed?

Yes, he was 12 when he had his first seizure. He was actually on a school trip in Austria and that's when it happened. And I had to get out to him and that was horrific because we didn't really know what had caused it. It was completely out of the blue, no health issues growing up. And then he had a second seizure on his 13th birthday. And that's when he was started on the first anti-epileptic drug. And his seizures just carried on getting worse and worse over the years. His doctors asked me to film them because he was having so many different seizure types.

And I was in my 50s. I didn't knew nothing about epilepsy at all. I didn't know you could have, I think there was over 40 different seizure types and Louis seemed to be having a lot of them and for two years his seizure just got worse his cognition was severely impaired so a bright boy at school was suddenly unable to remember anything he was being told three minutes after being told it

was hardly able to speak and in the end we were told there's nothing more can be done he will never be seizure free I was told to grieve for the child he had been. And I didn't want to give up. I just felt how could a healthy child... I mean, because the other thing I discovered was very, very little is known about the brain and about treating epilepsy as all trial and error.

It is guesswork at the moment, which is why we desperately need more research funding than the government. And in the end, I got to know Hannah Deakin, who the film is dedicated to, who tragically died last year. and she'd campaigned for her own son and campaigned for other children to get access to medical cannabis and without her work, Louis would not be well now at all. We went to the Netherlands and found that once he was off,

three of the drugs that he'd been put on before and on bedrolyte medical cannabis, his seizures stopped and his cognition came back. But from the age of 12, Louis, to 18, you were suffering with the severe epilepsy and the seizures. You tell me, can you tell me what you remember from that period and particularly when the seizures were happening so frequently?

I don't remember much. I was on medication that stopped me processing information and I became incognitive quite quickly. I couldn't process to the point where I couldn't string a sentence together. The words just wouldn't be coming to me. I'd be, they'd come and I'd forget. So my memory at that time is completely fractured. But obviously, like looking back on my past,

I have some sort of relationship with it still. And although very fragmented, there's not really specific memories, there's sorts of kind of, I guess, just layers of weirdness that I look back on. A lot of them are kind of to do with hallucinations caused by drugs or kind of general knowledge of the experience. that I might have like, I guess, fabricated memories from

because I kind of know what happened. There's also still very traumatic, so it affected me in ways that I still hold with me, even if not through memory. I mean, it was incredibly traumatic for my mum. I mean, it's kind of watching your son have a seizure. It's like watching your child drown over and over again. It's horrible.

I don't think many people realize how difficult it is for a parent with a child who has epilepsy. it's this constant detachment that you have from your child all of a sudden and it's you become unacceptable. If it's an epilepsy at a certain severity or a certain kind of, if it's very bad epilepsy like I had. Because it could happen at any time. Yeah.

So how do you navigate that period? Well, it was incredibly difficult. Time in a way, because in the film talk is also about time and memory. And for I think families that have to deal with epilepsy, it is like time stands still because you are waiting all the time for the next seizure. And you're planning ahead is so difficult. You know, you just never know what's going to happen next. And then the side effects of the drugs are so severe that a lot of time Louis was just too exhausted to get out of bed. He did have a very severe reaction to the medication.

It's not always like this for everyone, but for him he had a very unusual, rare, severe reaction. I think also if you're just in a state where you're that ill and you're bedridden, or even just a state of such severe affliction, I think it just becomes about getting out of that. Your life becomes about getting out of that. So it's not about, a lot of the time it's not even about living your life around that, even if you've reached a level of acceptance of this, your life,

you're trying to move forward with it. that it's so hard to, because you're, it's like, it's like, it's like kind of being at war in some ways with your own body. It's like it is being a war with your own body. You're kind of trying to get out of that. You're trying to make, get, like, you're trying to get better.

And that's what your life is about. And as a mother, that's what my life became about. Yeah. Trying to make my, I just wanted him back. And, and also, Louis seizures were very severe. They didn't stop after one. You'd have clusters. which means you have one after another, another, and you're not recovering.

So you need an ambulance. So we spend a lot of time in A&E, IV medication, which is extremely painful and doesn't always work. And it was, yeah, you're constantly living with the fear of death in extreme. So what took you to seek help in the Netherlands? Just to feel, it was the last resort really, because we were told nothing else would work. They were really struggling to find a drug that might work, a conventional drug that might work. a conventional drug that might work. But we've discovered in the Netherlands,

Louis has rare genetic variants, which possibly cause the drugs to backfire, possibly cause the epilepsy, and also it's a gene that's neuroprotective. So it wasn't, that's why his seizures didn't stop when they started. They just carry on and on and on over and over again. And so we just felt it was pre-the-Brexit rule,

so we could go and get treatments abroad at that point. and we were just desperate for, yeah, I was desperate and I didn't actually think it would help, but I thought I had to try. You try anything? You try anything at all. And the care in the Netherlands was absolutely amazing. How did it differ to the UK? I felt listened to.

I felt the severity of the side effects are taken more seriously because here we were told you put up with the side effects because seizures are so dangerous, they're life-threatening. And people don't realize this. as well. I mean, you know, people do die of seizures. It's 21 people die a week of seizures. And I just, so that I was told you just put up with the side effects. But Louis was still having seizures anyway.

So what were the side effects? Well, the severely impaired cognition, a complete exhaustion, not being able to remember anything you've been told, and hardly being able to talk sometimes. And in Louis case, seizures, because he suffered. worsening of seizures from the medication, which also, I'm not sure how common that is, but if it is common, I think we need to really consider. This is why we need more research.

And no doubt this is going, just talking about it now is making people think and we'll spark a conversation. We will be talking to some, an expert in a moment, and to Professor Finbar or Callahan in a moment, who has a pediatric neurologist. I'm going to bring you in in a moment, Finbar. But back to the Netherlands. So you went to the Netherlands because you were ready to try whatever might be out there.

You felt that you were listened to more. But in the film, what struck me is before you had to come off the medication that you were on and that was almost the that was a very difficult period as well. Well, that was when we were in the Netherlands. Yeah.

He had to spend, because he was put on highly addictive drugs, benzodiazepines, which caused the hallucinations as it was, they were withdrawn. And phenotone, which is a very old epileptic drug and that was really, he had seizures coming,

really severe seizures coming off that even though he was, it wasn't controlling seizures. But every time we reduced a dose, his cognition improved. He started reading again, playing the guitar again. And it was amazing, but he ended up needing to spend three months in an epilepsy clinic to withdraw,

finish withdrawing it because he was so ill. He was seizing every time he fell asleep all night. needed a feeding tube because he'd vomit in between seizures and couldn't eat and was too weak to walk and yeah it was absolutely horrific but once off those drugs that's when the bedrhylite started actually working and the last seizures he had was when we tried to withdraw bedrhylite the medical cannabis he's on now and he was back in hospital severe in us with a severe cluster so how do you take it

um i take it in oil form um it's very very low THC THC actually can cause seizures so that's why I don't take street cannabis for medication so if anyone wondering why we have such expensive medical cannabis it's because it's specific to my epilepsy and that's what works

not any cannabis would work and it's so yeah very kind of specific cannabis groans with like for epilepsy and I take two strains I take a strain called bedelite and a strain called Cannabis org three times a day. The bedge light I take, one milliliter,

and the cannabis I take 0.6mm, and it's just under the tongue in oil form for a kind of syringe, not a needle, but a syringe you put, yeah. I'm going to bring in Professor Finbar O'Callaghan, who's the chief scientific officer of the Epilepsy Research Institute, who is also a pediatric neurologist at University College London. And Finbar, thank you for joining us. So Emma and Louis have to pay privately for their treatment for the cannabis. Are there any instances when you can get it on the NHS?

And I'd like to hear your thoughts on their story. Yeah, thanks, Anita. I mean, it's a really moving story. I haven't seen the whole film, but I have seen extracts of it on social media. And it really highlights, isn't it, the impact of epilepsy and indeed its treatment sometimes. But also the pressing need for more epilepsy research so that we actually identify treatments that are effective and safe to treat the treat epilepsies. It really, I mean epilepsy really is a hidden disease. I mean, as Emma said, you know, it's going to affect maybe 1 to 2% of the population.

And yet it gets disproportionately small amount of research funding. probably 0.3% of all research funding goes towards epilepsy, even though it's affecting so many people in the population and costing the NHS somewhere around £2 billion a year. So there really is a need to do more research and to really identify those treatments which are going to really work. Sorry. No, no, carry on.

I was just going to ask you about the guidelines around medical cannabis for epilepsy. Yeah, so medical cannabis has been, actually has got a long history in terms of treatment of epilepsy. In the 19th century, it was used fairly widely as treatment for epilepsy and then fell out of fashion. And we've kind of had a re-interest in it in the last 10 or 15 years, really. And there is one former medical cannabis that's available on the NHS for treatment of three very rare epileptic. symptoms, a syndrome called Dravei syndrome, something called Lennox Gasto syndrome, and epilepsy associated with tuberouselis complex. But there are three pretty rare syndromes. So the cannabis-based

medicinal product on the NHS, which is actually pure cannibalial, is only available to a small, small number of patients for free on the NHS. As Emma said, we know so, little about how the brain works, but what do we know about epilepsy? So epilepsy is essentially there's over-excitement of the neurons in the brain, which discharge synchronously and that causes an epileptic seizure. And treatments to date have largely been directed at either trying to damp down the excitatory neurotransmitters substances in the brain or to promote the inhibitory neurotransmitters in the brain. And that's where most of the anesthesia medications have been directed.

So it's kind of like getting at the end of the story. So we're trying to damp down the excitement rather than very often not really dealing with the root cause. For Louis, they didn't work. So how common is it to be resistant to the traditional medication? Yeah, unfortunately more common than we'd like. About a third of patients with epilepsy will be refractory to treatment. So although I guess, you know, a majority will respond to treatment, a large minority won't. And they're the patients that really we need to direct a lot of attention, a lot of research into how we can improve their lives. Yeah, what can you do for those children?

Well, we have to look at new treatments, new medical treatments. There are other non-medical treatments that sometimes are helpful. So some patients are suitable to have surgery. If for instance there's a growth in the brain or some dysplastic, abnormal tissue in the brain which is causing the epilepsy, actually surgically removing that tissue can cure the epilepsy. So that has to be thought of in any case, which is refractory treatment. There are dietary therapies, as you may have heard, or the lessons may have heard,

in something called the ketogenic diet, which is a high fat diet. Well, you must have tried everything. We tried the ketogenic diet too. Yeah. And it worked for six weeks, and then the seizure started again. What would you like to see happen? I would really like more research into genetic epilepsy and how the drugs, might backfire because of rare genetics.

And I think Epilepsy Institute want to do research into this. They've had funding we've used already a year ago. And this is so important because, you know, we have to, as we learn more about genetics, and there's so many different epilepsy genes being discovered all the time,

Lewis's genetic variants are, it's one of five in the world. And if you look at the function of that gene, it makes complete sense why the medication backfired. What would need to happen for Fimbab for this medical cannabis to be more widely prescribed? I think obviously it's worked in Louis case and there are lots of individual cases where the digital cannabis has worked really well. I think for it to, in terms of it to be prescribed on the NHS, I'm not speaking for the NHS

or indeed nice, but they all want kind of rigorous objective evidence in the form of clinical trials to establish an evidence-based that it works across a broad range of epilepsies and that it's safe. But there's no doubt there's lots of anecdotal evidence out there that it's working really well in individual cases. And one of those cases is sitting right in front to me, Louie. You know, people listening, I'm sure people are paying a lot of attention to this story. And it was from 12 to 18 that you were suffering at the most.

So your school years were completely, you know, just totally your education was affected. However, there is another beautiful storyline to the film, which is how talented you are at art. And that has continued, and you've picked up the guitar again. So how is life? Life now is very good.

I mean, I feel like I'm thriving. I feel like I've gotten to a point with my epilepsy as well, where I feel like I have a very healthy relationship, with it, if I'm being honest. And I think that's quite difficult because when something consumes your life

for so long, it doesn't just go away when you get better. You carry that with you. I mean, that's trauma. And I think for a long time, I kind of have always been able to articulate my epileptic, like

what I kind of, I guess my experiences of epilepsy. quite well, which is actually a very rare thing because, I mean, I couldn't articulate myself when I was, when I was ill, but to be that ill and not be able to communicate and, like, articulate anything. And then to the point where I was kind of then suddenly felt like I had this weird understanding of it through a lot of therapy and working out. But I got very wrapped up my own articulation of it, where to the point where I kind of, I think,

I was holding onto it through that or through my kind of articulation from it while I really felt like I was kind of had reached this level of kind of acceptance with it, but I hadn't. It was this kind of, yeah, just completely caught up in my ability to communicate and talk about it.

But you also painted and you were drawing and painting throughout your illness. That was what's so extraordinary about the brain as well. He was able to sit in bed, even in hospital drawing and painting even when he could hardly speak and now he's graduated with a first with a first I have to say

I'm very proud after no second hardly any secondary education at all and amazing and the Saraband Foundation now amazing residency congratulations that's been really amazing and I have to say you've been able to articulate

yourself very well and tell us very so I want to thank you both for coming in and sharing that with us Emma and Louie and Professor Fimbabar O'Callaghan. Thank you. Thank you. And I must say that the National Institute for Clinical Excellence, nice told us, although our clinical guideline on cannabis-based medicine was unable to recommend unlicensed cannabis-based medicines

for people with severe treatment-resistant epilepsy, the guideline does not make a recommendation that they should not be used. As with any nice guideline that does not make a recommendation against the use of a particular treatment, the guideline on cannabis-based medicines should not prevent the use of these medicines for people with severe treatment-resistant epilepsy provided their clinically appropriate in an individual case

and based on balance of benefit and risk. We did ask NHS England to comment, too, but have not heard back. Once again, Emma and Louis, thank you so much. Thank you, thanks very much. 844-844 is the text number. Now, the sale of second-hand clothes is forecast to rise this year

to £217 billion globally. In the UK, it's estimated the second-hand fashion market has grown to more than 7 billion pounds accounting for nearly one in four fashion transactions. So here to talk to me about the rise of resale platforms like Vinted and Deepop is consumer expert Kate Hardcastle, founder of Insight with Passion,

why and how are women embracing pre-loved clothing? Welcome, Kate. Oh, thank you, hi. This is perfect to be discussing this because not only is it in the papers and a big story about business, It's something that I was planning on doing myself this weekend. So it's great.

And lots of people are probably thinking of sorting through things over the Easter weekend. So what's your reaction to the figures? I'm thrilled because like you, there's great people there that are reminded this is an opportunity. So many things have had to happen in a very natural effect for this tipping point to happen. One, we've seen technology take its part, which is it's a lot easier to sell online. It's a lot easier to search online. but also consumers find it very easy to be able to go and use these apps, use these selling platforms to monetize their wardrobe.

And I think a lot of it was the financial pressure that people felt, particularly with the cost of living. Just when we feel that economic bite doesn't necessarily mean we stop shopping altogether. But what it does actually mean is that we need to find different ways of doing it. So monetizing your wardrobe is just a sensible thing. But also, the stigma's gone. And if you're as old as I, then you probably... Oh, if you put yourself on...

I think you might be on mute. When... When you're talking... Oh, hi. Was that because you just said, if you're as old as I, mute when you said your age, and now you've come back? That's right.

Well done. I had to censor it. But yes, there's this challenge that was a stigma attached to it. And because we've seen this tip and point of more people move, and generationally, can I just say as well, it increases. So Gen Zs are really making a massive difference in how much product we see in in this re-commerce pre-loved platform, as you and I used to call it secondhand.

Yep. This is the growth. So so many different things have happened. It's monetising. It's given the opportunity. It's technologically easy. And that's why we've seen this change. Right.

I've got to bring in, you mentioned technology, technologically easy. And what about the impact of AI? How is that going to change everything? A huge amount. I could get really excited about things. we can't fully visualize right now. But if you can imagine machines where you have immediate sorting of an item. So perhaps it's a charity organization with donations.

Perhaps it's actually an organization that's set up built on re-commerce. These machine conveyor belts can analyze a product within milliseconds, work out its value, any fault, selling challenges. Is that best going to a recycling? Is that best going to a repair or is that best going to resale? that type of technology, speed and efficiency is all about making it what I call lean. So lean transactions means that things can get through quicker and become more affordable. So that's just the tip of the iceberg.

And I think we've just seen so much work with the likes of eBay, where they're trying to support and help organisations to be startups, to be smaller businesses in this world and make it affordable for them to do so. How significant is it that Vogue and eBay are collaborating? Hugely, because we all know that when we have. here titles like Vogue, there's a high fashion element to it that's been built over decades, there's a respect and element to it. And if we get in almost the tickbox from the purveyors of fashion and the elite of fashion to say, this is okay now, I think that helps that social challenge.

It's a permission to buy, I guess, that many have been waiting for, not only feeling financially sensible, but are environmentally aware. What I'm very aware of is as consumers, we don't always feel really connected with the change we can make. It feels that very small change. that we can all take on independently. But if you just have a quick look at the numbers, we're keeping about 200 million extra products in the cycle. And that means so much less to the hundreds of thousands of tons that go to land for each year.

That's a big difference. So please don't think your small purchase or your resale is not going to make the impact in terms of sustainability. So brands have even begun selling their own second-hand item or repairing used items. So what are your thoughts on the likes of Zornment? Zara, Dr Martin Mulberry who were doing this. What's driving that move?

It's been my work to test these brands to see if it's really there or if it's just a nice thing to say to give you credentials when it comes to environmentalability. And I think there are a lot of brands that have tested the water. It's not been the lion's share of their focus or business. That's changing. I'm pleased to say I've got to be the judge of many sustainable fashion awards over the years and seen distinct difference. Again, it's driven by consumer use.

There's just a tipping point here that if consumers find it easy and we'll do it, more organizations will lean into it because financially it becomes viable. And I think particularly brands like Inditex who owns Zara have put more focus and awareness there. So it becomes a bigger part of their business. Did they get forced into it? Because they just wasn't a business without looking into sustainability options and actually without taking control of your own brand through resale? Absolutely. And do the lion's share of products from their brands still sit on third. party platforms for retail, of course they do. But for me, a wind to a wound when it comes to

something just not going straight into a bin. What's the impact of all of this on the high street and new fashion lines? The really great question, fast fashion still exists in abundance. It's still really strong and people will have great sustainability credentials. And really we shouldn't judge anyone for this, but then quite quickly go to a fast fashion option. It is a blended approach. I call it quite pick and mix in terms of our ethics sometimes. And it depends what is coming higher up your buying needs in terms of speed or efficiency or perhaps something that's quickly part of a replacement on a school uniform versus something you've got time to shop for.

Because of course on the re-commerce platform, it can take a while for items to reach you still. But yeah, I think there's definitely more expectation on brands to do the right thing. There's certainly thanks to social media, more education, more awareness. One of the really difficult things I used to do is work with great organisations who were putting programmes together, trying to advise them on how we could make an interesting story, a sexier story, to talk sustainability.

And my contributions might end up on the kind of digital cutting room floor, I guess, because it just wasn't seen as interesting as a programme like yours. And now I get to talk to the great need to Ryan I'm a lot about it, so we're making a difference. I'm an OG second-hand shopper. You know that.

And you're right. I think it's significant that we used to call it secondhand, and now it's either vintage or pre-loved. It feels like the just the changing of the words makes it a bit more accessible. Stigma has taken it out of the secrecy into mainstream, and now we've got generations to come. I'm the mother of not only Generation Alphas, but Generation Z.

And there is no currency or conversation where they don't discuss secondhand options. So I feel delighted they don't have the stigma of having to hide a shopping bag in a shopping bag, and suggest this thing didn't happen to afford it. My workwear always had to come from a cherished shop. I couldn't afford anything else. That was the reality for me. So it's just sensible.

It makes good sense. And if there's one thing you want to do on this cold, damp weekend for Easter, and you want to kind of sort out your wardrobe, do it and try and find a rehome for these things. I'm going to read out some of the messages because we've got some coming in. Ninka said, in Chester, we have just started a clothing loop where one person passes an IKEA bag. full of good quality second-hand clothing to someone else and people can take items out and place their own items in.

The bag follows a route created by the host and it's a great way to try out something new and meet people in your community. We like that. Other than underwear, says someone here, I buy all my clothes in charity shops. If I don't want them later, I donate them back. No guilt. Charities benefits, sustainability, win, win, win. Another one here saying, and this is from Aisha, my best vintage find was from an Oxfam in Darlington. I got two vintage 70s dagger collar shirts with bishop sleeves, one brown, one cream. This is the best bit.

Three pounds each. Gorgeous pieces, but the polyester is so itchy. I have tried this. I tried selling something years ago. I had a beautiful Vivian Westwood dress, one of the first big sort of dresses that I'd bought myself. And I thought, I'm not going to wear it again. Silly me. I should have kept it.

But anyway, because I didn't know what I was doing, somebody got a Vivian Westwood dress. for the bargain price of 10 pounds. So whoever you are, I'm happy for you. I got a little tear in my eye there. I know. I can't believe I shared that story. I had to put it out into the open just to make myself feel better.

What's going to happen in the next couple of years? What are you looking forward to? Where are we heading with this? It's getting really exciting. Some of those AI technologies we mentioned, some of them still to come are going to really make this a very quick, easy system. That means the democratisation of even more of it,

which means you're going to feel much more in control. But remember at the same time, the new fashions that are coming through, the digital passports that are coming through, means that you're going to be able to scan a QR code and get the provenance and full supply chain. And as someone who was involved in international factories 30 years ago, believe me, knowing exactly where your product comes from, what the materials are, what that means impact-wise is huge.

So I totally feel this very geek girl is going to have a moment, and it means hopefully I might get a chance to chat to you and your listeners a little bit more and tell them to doing the right thing. You know, my message is no small step is too small a step. Please don't let this kind of green field put you off. We can't all make a significant difference, but together we can make a really big one.

Wow, you've put it out there, Kate. Thank you. You'll have to come in and talk to me next time. Would love it. We'd love it. Kate Hardcastle there. Keep your stories of your best vintage fines coming in. And if you are the person who purchased that Vivian West would dress for 10 pounds,

I'm just wiping my tears away. 84844 is the text number. The latest series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life concludes this week. Nula and guests share tips to improve our relationship with the way we look specifically how we feel about our faces, whatever our age. Do you ever feel like you're spending more time looking at yourself than you used to? In meetings, for example, now that many take place online,

it can have unexpected consequences. Philippa Diedrich, a professor of psychology and body image, explains. The more we see ourselves, and this kind of projection of ourselves, even me looking, I can see myself on the screen right now, it brings into our awareness that we're being observed and looked at by others. And that can sometimes trigger something of what we call self-objectification. We start to really become conscious that our bodies are being observed and looked at.

And the more that we do that, particularly as women, we're socialized to do this and scrutinize our appearance, the more we can start to see ourselves from an outsider's, perspective. And that can have some negative consequences for our self-esteem, but also just where our attention goes. For tips on how to manage all of this and to love your face, whatever your age finds the Woman's Hour Guide to Life in the Woman's Hour feed from last Sunday on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now.

The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Next, some new music for Easter.

The Passion of Mary Magdalene, a new work for singers and a baroque ensemble, tells the story of the crucifixion of Jesus through the prism of his most important female follower. Tanzi Davis, his composer, describes her work as born out of a fascination with nature and shamanism and a grinding rhythmic energy. And that tendency was clearly on display

when the piece premiered recently at London's Barbican, Tanzi's work has been performed from New York to Tokyo and I'm delighted to say she's here with us this Good Friday in the Woman's Our Studio. Welcome. Thank you, Anita. So tell us, about Mary Magdalene. Who was she? And what do we know about her relationship with Jesus? Well, she was obviously a really, really gifted person. She was very close to Jesus and he was just this

incredibly gifted person also. And the pair of them together, I think, were a very, very powerful duo. They were around at this time where, you know, history sort of starts to be written in the sense that we we understand there are scriptures that we can trace our Western civilization back to. And so there was a lot bubbling around at that time, I think, of people sort of preaching ideas, ideas and ideals about life, philosophy, how to live and so on. And of course, these two figures have stayed with us through that time. So that's very, very powerful. And I believe you've been fascinated by her for a long time. Why? Yeah, I think because I've always been interested in mysticism and the esoteric.

And I'm interested in a lot of these aspects of sort of the spiritual, but also that represent the feminine. So the big missing piece in the canonical Bible, as we know it, is the stories that were told by women. And the fact that the women mentioned in the Bible are very, very few. And the fact that Mary is mentioned quite a few times says to me that she was very, very special, very important, very powerful and intrinsic to the whole teachings of Jesus, I think. What do people who don't believe she deserves that status say about her? Well, I guess, you know, the whole thing with the framework of the religion and the various types of Christianity is that they provide people with great rules for life. and some people take a lot from that. And I would say then, you know, if that is enough for you, that's great.

But my personal belief now is that things do change, that the world has changed in 2,000 years and that we do need that other perspective more than ever now. And I think we can see it with the world as it is. It seems to be quite aggressive at the moment. And I feel that we, as a species, you know, us humans, we've become very good at sort of embracing, let's say, that sort of spiritual masculine side of ourselves. And I think we can all sort of think about actually what would it mean to be the opposite? What would it mean to find my divine feminine side? And this applies to all of us. And I think Mary Madeline is a symbol,

an icon, a vessel for that, so she can help us find that within. Because one of the things she represents is an idea of self-knowledge, of self-knowing, of what is sometimes called Gnosticism, where you're going within, you're taking a journey into yourself, you're sort through meditation, through taking time out, through going into the dark, as some people say, sort of going underwater, going into a cave, all these sort of ideas about how we sort of close ourselves off from the sort of all the activity of everyday life. Sure, yeah. And how do we find a kind of inner space and inner calm and inner peace?

And I think she is a kind of vessel or a vehicle for many people to find that. Yeah, and today is very much a day for that. So one of the reasons she's so important is because she's the first person to see Jesus when he returned to life and escape the tomb. How did you approach writing it? That particular section. That comes after a lot of drama and a big sort of cataclysmic section. where Mary Magdalene speaks of almost as if the whole cosmos has cracked open in shock and horror at the death of the crucifixion of not only this great teacher and friend but her beloved.

And so after that moment and she's come back the next morning to see if she can tend to his tomb and she's looking for him. She's saying, I can't find him. and she says to the gardener, have you taken him away? Where is he? I'm looking for my teacher, the rabbi, and where is he? And the angels are singing as she's walking around the garden in this distressed kind of slightly hallucinatory state. So what the angels are singing is actually a sacred chant.

And she joins in with that chant with her own version. So she's sort of tearful and weeping, but the sacred chant is sort of. seeping into her own voice. And then later on, a few sort of seconds after this moment where she's duetting, as it were, with the two angels. So there's three of them singing this chant. Then she speaks to the gardener, who is Jesus.

And he says, Mary, sweet one, I'm here. And it's quite a heart-opening moment when she realizes that in this vision, it is, him and and he says to her you're seeing me with your your inner eye so you know she's got she's achieved this level of kind of spiritual awakening and self sort of understanding that she's got this sort of inner sight and and that's a sort of high level of of of this whole practice of what they've been trying to achieve together of a kind of spiritual clearing and cleansing and understanding of themselves and can you tell us about who performed who you worked with.

Yeah. The group is called the Dunedin Consort, who are an amazing early music ensemble. And within that group, we had an electric guitar. So we had very ancient instruments, hops chords and bass lute, and then we had electric guitar. The soprano is Anna Dennis,

so she was playing Mary Magdalene, and Jesus was Marcus Farnsworth. So, yeah, it's the way I'm structured the text is I took the canonical gospels and a lot of the original stories as we know them because I wanted it to be relatable. But within that, the voice that I found for Mary Magdalene was the poetry of Ruth Fainlight. And she's a 94-year-old Jewish-American poet whose work I've loved and I've known her personally for years. And she's lived in a lot. She's lived in London most of her life. And a lot of her work has this focus on sort of exploding time,

going back in time through antiquity to sort of the gods and goddesses of the ancient world. And in particular, she has a whole genre of poems about Sybil's ancient, sort of wise women who I picture as being oracles in the desert. So for me, that's, that voice was Mary Magdalene's voice. And you visited the shrine of Mary Magdalene in Provence, where tradition holds that she lived as a hermit for 30 years. How did that impact the work? Yes, that was almost exactly one year ago. I was there on a beautiful pilgrimage, the weather was just dreamy. It's just, it was a glorious time. It helped me immensely. I was aware of time. These composing music takes so long, and I was aware that can I really afford to take time out and go and see this cave?

But it's a beautiful site. There's not only a Dominican friary, which sort of provides mass and retreats for people who are interested in Mary Madeline. There's also a basilica which houses her skull. And that skull on the, I think it's the 22nd of, gosh, July. They take it up the mountain. It's the Massif de Santa Baum in Maximum where they take this pilgrimage every year. And a number of people, I would guess, in their hundreds probably, follow the skull up to this mountain where there's a beautiful, I would say, a little chapel inside the cave, which is stunning.

And also there's another unmarked cave, which is the place where apparently she hid out for 30 years. It takes a bit of a scrabble. A lot of women? Do you know what? A mixed. Okay. A mixed parties were there. Yeah.

Well, it's been fascinating speaking to you. I mean, I'm just the thoughts of thinking, I'm going to make a piece, a performance around this. What an epic story to tell. And thank you so much for coming in, Tansy Davis. The Passion of Mary Magdalene will be broadcast on Radio 3 tomorrow at 10.30 p.m. Then available on BBC Sounds. Tansy, thank you.

Thank you. 8444 is the text number. Now, in her new book, Her Lance, Megamohan, BBC Global Reporter, explores the history of women-led communities, both physical and virtual, from co-housing for older women in Paris to the controversial feminist online trolls of South Korea. She travelled around the world to hear from the women who created and cared for these communities and talk to them about the complexities and imperfections of these alternative societies. Megha, welcome.

Thank you, Anita. What a great project. It has been a pleasure. A multi-year long, arduous project, but a pleasure. And here you are to be able to tell the world all about it. First of all, what drew you to this investigation of women-only spaces? Do you know what? It's really interesting because, you know, my specialism is gender, so I spend a lot of time in women's communities anyway. I'm a girl's girl. I got my tribe of women like you do. We've had lots of mutual friends. But what actually drew me to this project was it was this surprise visitor that we got one Christmas Eve. A really distant acquaintance of ours fell on a sheet of ice and she broke her wrist. And so she came to stay with our family over Christmas. And so we were, you know, on Christmas and you were in your pajamas and you got your cocoa and you can kind of have those loungy conversations that you don't have over quick dinners and bunches and stuff. It's just really lovely. And she said to me,

do you know that your great grandmother lived in a house that was ruled by women? And what was so shocking to me, Anita, was that my family, like a lot of families, have stories of the most successful people in the family. And as it turned out, my great grandfather was a very well-known cover-gully actor in India. Really kind of, like, there's, you know,

I've done a BBC documentary about him. And there's archive of him in Zurich and universities in England. So I had followed this man in the family. Katha Kha Kali, South Indian dance form. Kavakali is a South Indian dance form that emerged around the same time as Shakespeare. It's literally translates to dance play. And it enacts the sort of Mahabharatha and Ramay. So you knew about him?

Knew about him, all about him. But this guest who came to stay was like, have you heard about the woman in this family? she had a more radical life. And when I started researching, I found, I went on Twitter and I was because no one had been to the village where she had lived in this women only house, the thoroughvard, where women made the rules and, you know, the line was passed down and the properties and the keys and the lifestyle was passed down and men slept in an outhouse on the side. And I didn't know any about it. No one had been to the village that was surviving in our family. And so I looked on

Twitter, a guy responded to me and he says, my great-grandmother remembers your great-grandmother. Amazing. So it started the journey and from that I've been able to find many existing women-only spaces. So how far back do you go in the book? So we can go back, we can go back 30,000 years in the book to women's circles being found in caves in First Nations communities in Australia. and that is quite easy to locate because First Nations communities in Australia now still have women's business and men's business and they take that very seriously. So I'm really grateful to the elders of the women that let me into their community because they don't usually welcome people in.

And in women's spaces in women's business, they gather together to teach younger women in the communities, the oral storytelling. of what has sort of happened before, how to care for yourself, how to, you know, set up a home, what challenges emerge, grief, how you kind of grieve a person together. Really practical steps for dealing with life. And that, you know, kind of really struck me in an atomized age. So we can go back 30,000 years.

Yeah. Let's talk about some of the other sort of communities and spaces that you went to. You spent time at a women's land in the US, and that's women's spelled W-O-M-Y-N. Yeah, women without men in it. There you go. What was that like? Tell us about that. That emerged in a really interesting way because the 1970s was a interesting time in the global West

because that was when the civil rights movement sort of emerged with Stonewall, with the kind of, you know, gay rights movement. And there was also a time to, for people to kind of give up capitalism and wanting to return back to the land. There was an urban scene for, you know, lesbians and gay men. But a lot of communities wanted to return and build, you know, give up patriarchal systems, capital systems entirely and go back to the land to build communities from scratch. However, so hundreds of women's lands emerged all over the world, mostly in North America. But it's hard to find these communities because they don't want to be found. But there was one woman, and her name was She Wolf.

And She Wolf had a little van called Casita, that she drove her. She was the troubadour for the lesbian community. And She Wolf drove around the US to find these different communities and how they lived, Some of them allowed boy children. Some of them didn't even allow male cats to enter. And she gathered them in an archive. She wolf died, unfortunately. But luckily, the group of women that honor her let me have access to that archive.

And so I got in touch with the communities that are existing today. And one of them let me go and stay with them for a few weeks. What was that experience? It was a really interesting experience for me because I don't locate. It was in the American South, so south of the main. and Dixie line. So this is a very conservative place. It was 100 acres of land. I wouldn't call them an intensive

lesbian community. They let people know when men are about to enter the land and they share a tractor and they have festivals where they kind of sing to kind of honour their setting. But I wouldn't say that they are a community like what the founder initially wanted when she built it with her girlfriend. She built it with her girlfriend called Yahoo.

Yahoo died unfortunately. And Linan Yahoo had hoped for a community that they could build a life with. Yeah. But that didn't. But in modern times, as younger lesbians moved in, they wanted to integrate more with the world. So it was changed over time. We've got a few messages.

I'm going to read out from our list. listeners, Karen has been in touch to say when I turned 60, I wanted to celebrate with all my closest women friends as they've been there for me and we've supported each other over difficult times throughout our lives. They live all over the country and I imagine to get everyone together just last month for a weekend away in Kettlewell in Yorkshire where I rented a big house and shared a few celebrations together with 18 fantastic women. It was brilliant and I felt so lucky to have all these amazing strong women in my life. Another one from Georgina here saying I'm part of an amazing female friendship group. We call ourselves the 15.

busy friends to reflect our fizzy intake when we get together. We met at a baby and mother group in Northampton 25 years ago. We support each other through life's happiest and most challenging of times. And we just laugh so much. We're all in our 50s now. So we're entering a new phase and I can't wait for future adventures. And I can relate. You know, your female friends and surrounding yourselves by those women in your life

because we feel safe in those spaces. We feel safe in those spaces. And when women get together, women talk. Yes. And that's when you learn about aspects that you might not know in other spaces. You learn about salaries and you learn about care work. You learn about resources that are available. But I love hearing stories like this because it means that this is not some fringe concept that is a kind of eye role women spaces.

Actually, these spaces emerge because they're filling in potholes that society, is not, has not provided for them. They are structurally, they're discussing quite sophisticated concepts. You know, this is women broke a peace. Less than 10% of peace negotiators are women, but actually take it down to community level, and you'll probably find that the number is way higher if you go to villages and, you know, rural communities.

And there's a lot of incredibly intellectual, society organising, the shadow governments that are emerging from these spaces. And also what we started with with that sort of female connection to nature and sort of protecting of the land as well, not just family, the actual earth. Taking it back to the beginning of our conversation, what happened to your great-grandmother's community? So that's the thing. So my great-grandmother, when she met my great-grandfather,

they fell in love at first sight, which was very unusual for that time. and he didn't want her to live in her community. And so she laughed. And I'll end with one tiny story that apparently when they met, they saw each other through these glass beads. And when my grandmother died, she had these glass beads under her bed.

And my mother likes to think that that's the moment that they saw each other and they fell in love. But I think it reminds her of her women's community. What a wonderful way to end it. Thank you so much. Megah for coming in. Megah Mohan, author and BBC Global Correspondent. Her book is called Herlands Lessons from Societies where Women Make the Rules. Thank you. That's all for me. Thank you for all your messages. I'm going to end with one of them.

I belong to two book groups and at the Women's Institute. And our meetings are more about women friendships and keeping in touch and listening to each other. And always leave feeling happier, as I do whenever I finish a woman's hour. On Easter Monday, join Nikki Beady, who's exploring women's relationships with love. Happy Easter. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Alan Davis, and on BBC Radio 4, we're off into alternate realities mapped out by science.

This is Life Without, where I pull one thread from the magnificent fabric of life, and watch what unravels. Scientists around the world would be crying themselves to sleep. A bunch of mammals would be worrying about where their favourite snack was. And we'd bring it down to Earth. David Beckham. I can imagine him putting that on the socials. My bees of my girls have all disappeared.

Sometimes we patch it up and crack on. We will survive. We will survive. Humans are ingenious. That is our hallmark property. We should prize above everything else. But sometimes it's bigger than us. Join me to find out just how far the unraveling can go.

Subscribe to Life Without on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sat. sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure.

The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.