Woman's Hour - Children and happiness, Miscarriage leave, Extramarital pairings

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

Women in Northern Ireland who have had a miscarriage - along with their partners - will now be entitled to two weeks paid leave. The government is planning to bring in at least one week of leave for families in England, Scotland and Wales next year. Nuala McGovern is joined by Niamh Campbell, Reporter for the Belfast Telegraph and Erin Sharkey who is a volunteer with the Miscarriage Association in Northern Ireland.Last August, 250 harvest mice were released into a nature reserve in Devon to replenish the natural stocks of this little animal that is under-threat. The project wasn’t conceived by a big conservation group or local wildlife centre – in fact it barely involved adults at all. It was the dedication of two 13-year-old naturalists, Eva Wishart and Emily Smith, who bred the mice at home in empty fish tanks, using plants from their garden, and a custom-built release enclosure. We hear from them and we have an update on the success of their project. Do you think that having kids makes you happy? A new study from the University of Nicosia in Cyprus suggests not. It drew on data from more than 5,000 participants in ten countries, including the UK, and concluded that there is no strong evidence that parenthood leads to a measurable increase in positive emotions. To discuss the findings and weigh up their own experiences, we hear from two mothers of two - Ella Whelan author of ‘What Women Want,’ and Iko Haruna, a family photographer and former presenter of ParentLand, the BBC World Service’s podcast.Thousands of rapes are reported every year across the UK in fact, and the numbers continue to rise. ‘Sophie’ was raped by a man pretending to be a taxi driver after a night out in Glasgow in 2022. She decided she wanted to talk publicly about her experience and approached BBC Scotland newsreader Laura Miller, presenter of Scotcast, who tells us more of Sophie's story.What if people who have affairs were sent off, in their extramarital pairings, to an unknown city to spend time together? All the while their 'real' lives were put on pause and waited for them to come back. How long would the paradise last for? This is the premise of a new book, Permanence by Sophie Mackintosh. Sophie joins Nuala to discuss it.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Good to be back with you. Well, a question to get us started today. Are people with children happier than those without?

A study published in evolutionary psychology says, apparently not. We'll get into it with two mothers this hour. But I'd also like to hear from you, whether you do or don't have children, whether that's by choice or circumstance. Do kids or lack of them factor into your happiness? Was that perhaps more pronounced at certain points in your life? Maybe the time of a new baby or the teenage years, for example, for those that have had them? Or maybe freedom in your 40s for those without? Do you think happiness just ebbs and flows for everyone?

Well, you can text the programme, the number is 84844. on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 0-3700-100-444. Another finding from the study. It found that parents reported slightly lower levels of satisfaction

in their relationships compared to the non-parents. But speaking of partners, we're going to travel this hour to an alternative universe with the author Sophie McIntosh. It's populated by adulterous couples and it's all part of her new book, Permanence. We're going to discuss all that

with Sophie a little later. And also today, a change in rape sentencing guidelines in Scotland. We're going to hear it through the story of one young woman whose case helped bring about longer sentences. But let us begin in Northern Ireland, as it has become the first place in the UK to introduce miscarriage leave. Women in Northern Ireland who have had a miscarriage, along with their partners will now be entitled to two weeks paid leave. The government is planning to bring in at least one week of leave for families in England, Scotland and Wales, but that will be next year. I'm joined by two guests. Neve Campbell, reporter for the Belfast Telegraph, and also Aaron Sharkey, who's a volunteer with the Miscarriage Association in Northern Ireland. Good morning to both of you.

Thank you for joining us. Neve, let me begin with you. So what exactly is changing with this introduction? Good morning. So basically what's happening is that previously it was people could have statutory paid leave if they had a stillbirth over 26 weeks and now that's changed. So it doesn't matter whatever stage of pregnancy the woman is at. She will be able to avail of that mischarge leave. And as well, it doesn't matter how long they have actually been employed. Previously there had to be a qualifying period of 26 weeks of continuing.

employment and now it's just a day one rate for workers and it also applies to the woman's partner as well so it means that statutory pay for that two weeks they don't have the ticket in a two week block and you know can take it a week at a time and another week at a time so they'll receive the statutory rate currently is just a little over 194 pounds per week or 90% of someone's pay if that if their salaries lower than that and I'm curious how you've seen the response to this change covering it from a political angle? Yeah, it's been everyone has widely welcomed this. You know, there has been absolutely, as you would expect, you know,

there's no pushback at all. Employers are very welcome. And it was brought forward by the Department for the Economy. So that's Minister Kiva Archibald, and she framed it as a matter of care and compassion for families. I think quite a lot of people who haven't experienced or been affected by mischarge couldn't believe that it wasn't already. law, it just seems one of those things that

is nearly common sense. And one thing is well that a lot of people are politically, and a lot of people here, the politicians are rightfully, as opposed, cheering for it, because Northern Ireland, people may not realize, we're often the very last part of the UK and the Republic of Ireland to bring laws in. We were

the last part of the UK and Ireland to have an end in violence against women and girls strategy. We still don't have a dedicated women's health strategy, whereas every other part of the UK and Ireland does. So, for once, We're sort of leading away on this because we are, you said, the first part of the UK to have this. I know Westminster is looking at something similar for England, Scotland and Wales for 2027,

but that'll be just up to one week's paid leave, I believe. And why do you think Northern Ireland was the first then? I think a lot of it, as you see, Piva Archibald was really pushing for this. A lot of charities and campaign groups have done so much work here. Sands is the leading sort of baby lost charity. there's also the Miscarred Association, there's the White Butterfly Foundation, and those charities and volunteers

really have campaigned for better workplace support after baby loss. There was as well. Kiva Archibald is a Sinn Féin, MLA, her party colleague, John O'Dowd, he's a finance minister, and last year he also brought forward a law that allowed people to recognise

they were allowed to have a baby law certificate if they lost their baby prior to 26 weeks as well. because that wasn't in place either. So I think it's all sort of being, that law has given way for this law. There's also another law that is expected to pass in May 27, which will allow extended leave for parents

who have a child in neonatal care, like a premature baby that's maybe being in hospital for quite a while. So it's all building upon these previous laws that are coming forward. And I do think the campaigners really have a lot to play in it. Well, let's turn to one of the campaigners then. and thank you for that, Neve. Erin, you're very welcome to the program. You support women who have experienced miscarriage.

I'd be curious how you're feeling today about these changes that are coming in. They are so, so important. Yes, I support actually women and men, so women and their partners are welcome at our support groups. And we hear at every single support group and everywhere that I go with the Miscarriage Association, that people are unsure if they're entitled to take time off, if it's a valid enough grief to take time off. And certainly partners are very rarely considered

whenever we're talking about time off. They might take a day or maybe two days, but in fact it's so important that partners are considered and are included in this legislation too. And I'm sorry that you have gone through losses. I know personally when it comes to miscarriage. And I'm wondering what something like this would have meant to you. So whenever I miscarried,

we didn't even consider that my wife, Rachel, would take any time off because we just didn't know anybody who had taken, you know, anybody's partner, sorry, who had taken time off at all. So I really had to go through my losses, the physical part of it, the emotional part by myself. I had to process it pretty much on my own. I was so fortunate that my boss was sympathetic and did allow me to take time off

and encouraged me to take a bit of time off. But for me, I put pressure on myself to go back to work. And there were no sort of guidelines or there was no official time that I could take off. So it was all really just a guessing game. And you're really at the mercy of your employer. And so, of course, that can be so many different situations. I'm interested as well, Erin, and how you see this being public, that there's a name given to it instead of it being in the way it was previously, obviously for much later losses, but also, I suppose, a little bit hidden perhaps in workplaces in society. Yeah, so miscarriage, you know, we're trying to break the time.

We've been trying to do this for a long time to bring it up in conversations and to be heard and to be talked about because very often for people who miscarry, we all know miscarriages happen, but who do they happen to? You know, it's such a shock whenever you're told there is no heartbeat. And just to bring it up in conversation and to make it part of our own learning as women and as people who, you know, may be pregnant or may get pregnant in the future, it's so important. important and certainly all of this media coverage is absolutely brilliant to enhance the conversation and to bring it up for people. And also to let people know that this is out there. You still have people who won't take advantage of this and that's their personal choice. Nobody is going to be forced to take the two weeks. It is a personal choice. And some people will not want to do that and that's completely fine.

But just that it's there and that it seems to be it's going to be very simple to get is a real bonus for everybody because like you say, talking about it can be very difficult. And you say easy to get in the sense that they don't have to

provide any documentation. It's basically to speak to the employer as I understand it. Also, I was reading which I thought was quite moving. in our article that we have up online that people might use that time for when the due date was

or for birthdays or anniversaries, Erin. Absolutely. We hear this very often and people very often return to our support groups a year later or on their due date or on the anniversary of their loss because they're so poignant and there's no guidelines and there's no right or wrong thing to do.

It's so personal and sometimes you can feel very lost at that time and going to work on those days, you know, it's so difficult. You're very emotional and you're not going to be a productive employee either. So to be able to take that time at a later date when you need it is really, really important. I'm just thinking you must feel very proud today, though, like the path that you have gone and where you're at. Yeah, so I work alongside many baby loss charities in Northern Ireland. You know, we have cradle and aching arms and we have the White Butterfly Foundation. And we all work really well together.

And, you know, it's really amazing to see that our hard work has come to fruition and that things are really moving ahead with this, with the baby loss certificates. And, you know, that it's going to really benefit the people who we strive to take care of and to look after. And that's our ultimate goal is that people are well supported and well cared for and that they know that there's information and support out there from us. And can be used within 56 weeks is one of the aspects as well as we talk about. Perhaps people coming back to you even within a year, Erin, thanks for that. And Eve, I want to come back to you just on one detail.

Yes. I believe that it is 24 weeks previously. Yes, apologies. I had said 26. It was 24 weeks. So now, as well as I said, you know, at any stage of pregnancy now, that's being abolished. But I also think just to touch on what Aaron say too about, you know, she felt the pressure to go back to work. I think talking to some women myself, I know women that had gone back to work the very next day after a miscarriage or they're taking it off sick.

But the fact that now this miscarriage leave law, it acknowledges the fact that miscarriage is a bereavement and not an illness. So I think that contributes to that sort of breaking that stigma of silence. and a big part is the fact that they don't need to produce any sort of evidence, which can be very traumatic in itself as well, they just have to inform their employer about the pregnancy loss. I want to thank Neve Campbell, journalist at the Belltafas Telegraph and also Aaron Sharkey, who's a volunteer with the Miscarriage Association in Northern Ireland. One person getting in touch says just to add to this conversation,

my loss came before a week's planned holiday, so I had my husband by my side through the emotional and physical pain. not have done it alone. He was my rock. I couldn't have done it. It would be really good to see some structure around the Partners League picking up on some of the points that Erin and Neve were bringing to us there. Now, you have a chance right now to hear an uplifting story. It's one in a joyful series that we're running about women helping the planet and others in their communities. This one might even give you some inspiration if you're looking to entertain children during the Easter holidays.

So last August, 250 harvest mice were released into a nature reserve in Devon to replenish the natural stocks of this little animal. That's under threat. The project wasn't conceived by a big conservation group or a local wildlife centre. In fact, it barely involved adults at all. It was all the dedication of two 13-year-old naturalists, Eva Wishart and Emily Smith, who bred the mice at home in empty fish tanks

using plants from their garden and a custom-built release enclosure. Anna Foster asked Eva, what had given her the idea to do this. It started on a family camping trip to Derek Gowell's place. Derek Giles like a legendary ecologist. And he breeds native endangered British wildlife like storks and beavers and waterfalls and harvest mice. So we saw the harvest mice and they're small

and relatively easy to look after and you don't require a licence to breed them. So I thought we should get some of them. And in August 2020, we got our first two pairs of mice. But unfortunately, the cat did eat three. of the fall. Okay, that's a learning curve, isn't it? One of the things, I can see you laughing, Emily. It's one of the things that you have to learn early. But it got a lot more successful after that,

right? Yes, it did. In the first year, we bred 80 harvest mice, and 68 of them were given to Derek Gow, and he released them in Cheshire. So I like to think of my mice living in Cheshire with Northern accents. Oh, definitely. Is it hard to do? Because it sounds to me like it must be quite a complicated thing to get the hang off? Yeah, it's very complicated. I mean, you have to sort out all the mice work out, who's going with who. And you can't tell them apart. It all requires all my pretty rubbish labelling systems.

What's your labelling system look like? I don't have one. That's why it's rubble. Do you just have to guess, or do you have to look for their little distinguishing features on them? I mean, I write basic labels, but they don't help. They don't help. Well, look, I mean, it's good to see. And Emily, you got involved in all of this as well.

Eva's clearly a pretty good teacher. Did you enjoy the experience? Yeah, it's been amazing. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. What was your favourite part of doing it, Emily? Probably just thinking that we're going to be able to make a stable population and that's going to be back in the ecosystem for a while at least.

Yeah, because I suppose that's the big part of it as well. You get the enjoyment of doing it. something, but then also you know, and as you said, Eva, you were inspired by this, you know that actually the result of your hard work is for the greater good, for the natural world, yeah. So, like, I learn about all sorts of horrible things in books and on documentaries, what's happening to the world, and our future is very scary at the moment. So doing something, even though it's a tiny project with tiny creatures, it's really helping me to feel a lot better.

Oh, that's really interesting, actually, to do something. because you're right, the world can be a scary place at times. And so if you're doing something positive, that really helps you, does it? Yeah, it does. Yeah. I wonder as well, and this is just me, I would find it really hard to let them go at the end. Do you not get attached to them? I do get attached to them.

Yes, I'm very sentimental about my mice. Are you? But in my garage, they are living in quite small tanks, and they don't have a lot of room. So releasing them into the world in their natural habitat is amazing. And we saw them yesterday in the dead hedge, which was lovely. Oh, yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it, actually, knowing that you're sending them out there to a better life.

And as you said, particularly the ones that have northern accents. Do you ever think about the fact that they're going off and having new families and having all of these adventures? Exactly, yeah. It's my baby. It's going off into the world. Oh, that's cute. And, I mean, this is just getting bigger and bigger.

You had 27 fish tanks that you did all of this because we said at the start 250 mice, which is a big project. I mean, I'm just wondering how this all fits in your house at this stage. Well, I used to have them in my bedroom, but we had to clear out the garage. It took some effort, but yeah, so we've mostly moved out to our garages to breed them. We didn't really have enough space to breed a whole 250. So we tried to breed 150. that didn't quite work because they haven't been breeding as fast as we hope.

So we had to buy some off Derek and we needed to raise £4,050. And that's how the crowd funder got involved. Then Chris Packham posted it. Then there was a Packham effect and it shot up. Yeah, it really did. And it's brilliant, as we were saying, to see the results of what you've achieved. What was it like that moment when you released them? It was really uplifting.

And with Chris Packham there, it definitely felt like we were on Springwatch or Winter. to watch or something. Yeah. Did you get the feeling of what it must be like to be a parent, just for a second? Yeah. I was going to say, when you get older and the sort of children are running off and you're thinking, I hope they behave, I hope they're safe. If the people are listening to this, and I bet there are people who are inspired to do a similar sort of thing, what advice would you give them if they want to have a go themselves? So I do have this idea, which is basically it's about creating a network of children all across the country. So instead of having tiny hamsters cooped up in tiny cages,

they can breed endangered British wildlife like butterflies, harvest mice and glowworms. And they can be released and it would all be supported by professional ecologists. Well, I think that's a brilliant idea. And it's definitely something to work on. So if anybody's listening to this and can help, then that could be the start of your big project, right? Yes, please.

I just loved listening to that. and Emily speaking to Anna Foster. And we heard from Eva's mum this morning that even Emily searched for nests this month and found five nests, which means at least five litters have been born so the mice have bred in the wild and their project has worked.

So talking there about what it's like to be a parent. We're going to talk about that too. The question I was asking you at the top of the program, do you think that having kids makes you happy? Well, there's a new study from the University of Nicosia in Cyprus, which suggests not. I mean, in the sense of no different from the non-parents. It drew on data from more than 5,000 participants in 10 countries, including Britain, and concluded that there is no strong

evidence that parenthood leads to a measurable increase in positive emotions compared to non-parents. In a moment, I'll be discussing the findings with two mothers of two. But I do want to acknowledge some people, of course, would love to be a parent and it hasn't or isn't working out for them yet. For some moms as well, life with a child can be extremely challenging for a multitude of reasons. There are all sorts of experience out there.

As always, it would be good to hear from you what you think about this, whether you think having kids makes you happy and also perhaps looking back at your own mother. Do you think having a child made her happy? Well, with us in studio, Ella Weillan, author of what women want.

Good morning. Morning. And Eco Haruna, family photographer and former presenter of Parentland at the BBC World Services podcast. Good morning. Good morning. Right. So, where you decide, what would I say, surprised Ella, by that line that there's not a measurable difference between the parents and the non-parents when it comes to happiness. No, surprised, no, depressed, yes. I mean, I did think it was, I think it's a problem. And that's because when you break down the research, they kind of break, they section it into emotional well-being. or meaningfulness, purplfulness.

Do your children fill you with a sense that you're doing something meaningful? And so the happiness breaks down into different sort of sections. And for almost all of it, the answer was, no, they haven't made too much difference in my life. And I think, you know, children haven't changed. Children are jolly, happy beings most of the time. I mean, actually, they are even when they're doing terrible things. You know, it's like my son routinely is puked at 3 o'clock in the morning. in his bed and then laughed about it.

You know, they're undeniably jolly. So it's not children that have changed. I think we've changed as adults and our approach to parenting, which I think we really should put in like, I'm doing scare quotes in the studio here because, you know, the whole, the word parenting is only a very new thing.

You know, it used to be that you'd raise children. And now there's this thing called parenting, which I think is probably what's, what's putting in the block on people's emotional well-being rather than the kids themselves. It's so interesting. I will just read a line that, you wrote for our listeners.

Perhaps these rather depressing results about parents' happiness tell us something about our particularly miserablest attitude to parenting and so you lay it on the line there. What do you think, Ego, has been a parent today more of a struggle? I was mentioning that you were a presenter of Parentland.

It's interesting to think about that parent and as opposed to raising. I think expectations is the key here. culturally myself, it wasn't a question whether I was going to be a parent or not. It was just a normal, you just did. You know, it was your duty to continue the lineage. So there wasn't a thought for me.

It was just happy. Duty is such an interesting word too, though, because I think sometimes we approach duty somewhat differently than we do something that we're excited to do, for example. I mean, it can be both, couldn't it? Oh, absolutely. I mean, if your race to feel that family is, you know, part of what you do, who you are, it's natural. I don't think for me personally it was about there wasn't a consideration as to whether it would make me happy or not. It's something that was going to be sort of wholesome.

So, you know, Ella mentioned, touched on there, the types of happiness. And I found this really interesting in the study. So there's two, hedonic, which is the day-to-day happiness that you might get, for example. And then the other was you demonic, which is instead a life's purpose. So a different sort of happiness. Kind of what you're talking about there, Eko, right? Exactly. So for me, it was always going to be this, like, it's part of your entire purpose.

It's not the one thing. It's that and everything else that makes you huge. And did you think, and I'll come to you, Ella, on this in a moment, that it could only be a child that would give that you demonic happiness, well-being? Or could it be something else, like a job or friendship or whatever it might be? I think it can be more than children. Children certainly contribute to it, but I think it can be more. And it is. Even as a parent to two children now, I'm a whole person doing so many different things.

So yes, I think... Can I just say how revolutionary this idea, this portrayal that Eco is putting forward is because, you know, the idea that children have a purpose but it's just this thing that you do, it's a natural thing, it's not overthought. It's so unusual to hear that today because, and it's so important to put it that way,

because I think a lot of the time now, prospective parents, certainly women I talk to, think that it's this thing that you're going to... I mean, of course it's this big monumental thing that you do, but it seems like an insurmountable challenge to a lot of people, that's what I was trying to get at in the article, because despite the fact that raising children has become easier

in terms of like, we've got washing machines, disposable nappies, formula, you know, technically it's a lot easier than our mothers and our grandmothers had. But emotionally, psychologically, now it's this fraught thing. You've got to do the gentle parenting. You've got to do the exclusive breastfeeding. You've got to, you know, it's just crazy. It seems crazy to, I think, a lot of women. And in fact, it isn't and it doesn't have to be.

And if it's the case that we're, I think actually as parents, we need to be cheerleading for what raising children should and could be, which is, you know, yeah, it's going to be hard. Yeah, you're going to work harder than you ever had. You're going to worry more than you ever had. You're never going to sleep properly again. But it doesn't matter because that baby's going to grab your finger and the world is going to be a better place. I think we need to start talking more positively about parenting because, you know, whether it's falling birth rates or the rest of it, people being worried, people being overwrought. we're not putting forward the positive view of why children matter and are great.

Which is different, perhaps, Ella, to them making you happy. They're making you miserable a lot of the time. I mean, you know, really genuinely, I think the hard work for me isn't the thing that matters. It's the worry that gets to me. You know, worrying do they have friends. Worrying, are, you know, are they going to get sick? All that stuff, it's, you know, it really does make you unhappy. But it's in the brown.

It's in a balance of the things that do matter because like I said, you know, the joke about puking the night time, children just make you think about something other than yourself. And I was thinking, someone said to me, you know, what does love mean? What does it really mean? It means when you care more about someone else than yourself. And that's the thing.

And that can happen as a parent, but it can happen as a non-parent as well. Some messages, quite a few of them have come in. Let's go through a few. It's not the job of a child to make their parent or parents happy. That belief is harmful, leading to children thinking they're responsible for their parents' happiness. This is not their job, so says Liz.

I absolutely agree with that. I think it's a huge burden to put on a child to say that they complete you and you know you're nothing else without them. That's immense pressure. And that could end up being an adult who has so much expectations put on them. It really shapes who they are. I mean, I think it's important as a parent to make sure that you are fulfilling other sides of yourself so that you don't feel like the children are,

you'll be all and end on. Another, children don't make you happy. They only fulfil you, which is interesting, kind of as a different dimension. I find it frightening how many people have children in pursuit of happiness. Having said that, I am an artist, so maybe I have the privilege of another creative outlet.

Coming back to this study, they did say women with children reported a slightly greater sense of finding meaning in life on average rather than those without children. However, the difference was small. When the 10 countries included in the data were separated out, the result was found only to be statistically meaningful for mothers from Greece. But maybe historically it was harder for women to find that life's purpose outside the home.

Yes. And I mean, I actually think now we're sort of doing a one at 360, because now, you know, whether I mentioned exclusive breastfeeding or gentle parenting or the rest of that, I think there's so much pressure to do intensive parenting, particularly for women. And that's not me sort of saying, oh, you should neglect your kids and they don't mean anything,

you don't spend any time with them. But there's some balance here, please. Because I think now women are expected to just once they have the baby, be with them 24-7. And that will make you unhappy because you should still be your own woman. But I think the F word,

I think that's missing all of this is just fun. We suck. so much of this discussion about parenting misses the fact that you have in your day so many things to do, brush their teeth, get them fed, get them to bed, get their nap. The fun thing is the thing where you just, it's the free part where you don't have anyone telling you what to do. And, you know, at the moment we have NHS adverts and bus stops telling you to play with your children because it helps their brain synapses.

We've got government, you know, releasing a statement two weeks ago saying, no screens at meal times and, you know, to the sound of every parent in the world. Ha ha ha ha. Like, scoffing at how ridiculous that is. You know, relax. I think we just got to take the pressure off parents and remember that it's. fun. It's meant to be fun. That's right. And I think just to add to that, part of the things that personally

have made parenting hard is all the structures, the systems that just aren't in place for me. So say for example, the cost of childcare, you know, my, losing that village. Well, when you use the word raise, actually, Ella, that makes me think

village. Yes. Eco for you too? For me, absolutely. And I think if I could go back and do it again, I'd really consider the idea of the village more because I live here without my family. So that makes raising the children so much harder. In a way, people going for where the jobs are, etc. Can it can bring up these issues. I've got two children, age three and six.

We've a lot of friends without children. My opinion is that with children, the highs are higher, the lows are lower. There's less limitations for child-free couples who do things to make them happy in any given moment. Harder when you have children to take care of. but the sheer joy of certain moments of raising a child cannot be matched. So says one. I want to come to BBC investigation last month. Both of you might have seen this.

It highlighted some women who regretted being mothers. It talked about some of the negatives. There are so many different experiences. But in no particular order, the impact on your body, your finances, your freedom, your sexual relationship, your social relationships, the type of car you have if you're lucky enough to own one, your own mental health, this is a list. some people, some women, felt cheated, thinking that motherhood was going to be one thing

and ended up with a completely different reality. Do you think they can voice this, Eko? A lot of people stay anonymous. I don't think they can. Because you can imagine saying that and your child finds something like that. But the truth is... But do you think it's just about the child or do you think...

I think it's so much more than that. I think it's expectations. It's that, you know, you miss what you had before. But if you're going into this knowing what the challenges, challenges, potential challenges are, then you manage your expectations. It's about balance, as you said earlier, Ella. And I think a lot of people just don't, they sort of miss that perspective. Yeah, I mean, I started off by saying, I think we need to really cheerlead for parenting,

but we do also have to manage people's expectations. That, you know, it is a complete change of your, of everything to do with your life. And you will eventually get back to some kind of, you know, being able to go out for a coffee when you want or things like that when they're in school, but not for a good while. I mean, for a while you're in the trenches. And exactly like your caller said, you know, the highs are higher, the lows are lower.

But I think, and this is where I'm going to sound like a real, you know, mean Harrodin here, I do think that there's a problem with a young generation having a very precious, perhaps sort of narcissistic sense of what emotional well-being means in terms of, you know, no, you're not going to be able to go and do your mental health walk or you have your facial or do your yoga or even maybe texture friends back as much. But maybe you can. It's just different. Or maybe they want a different life. I mean, they have a choice. They have a choice. But whether if you want to become a parent,

you're thinking some of those things are going to have to go. Well, listen, I think I think the best advice I give to anyone is, you know, it happens by accident to people and they love it and that's part of life. But if you can plan, have your fun like I did in my 20s, have a good time. And then when you're sick of going out and partying and all the rest of it, have the kids because it's just a different part of your life. And then, yeah, when you're four, you can get hop back on the horse, as I look forward to doing when mine get beyond the sleepless life. You can do that and still regret it. You can do all that and still regret it because there are so many issues that could come up with parenting. Say, for example, having a child with special needs, you cannot

possibly account for that. So then what do you do? And as a society, be sympathetic. That's when it comes back to the village thing, be sympathetic to that. But I just do think that there's this thing now where kind of there's a generation who wants to have their cake and eat it, which is a good aspiration to have. But I think there's just a reluctance to admit that having children means sacrificing your own, yeah, emotional well-being and all the rest of it, but in pursuit of something. And it's hard to talk to women about, you know, a social project of childbearing

because that's, you know, historically been very unfair to us. It's always been our role to only do this. But I do think we need to get, I do think we need to tell women why it's a good thing and men, but particularly, I'm more than. interested in women. The message is... Why it's a good thing to have kids. The messages continue to come in with all perspectives.

And of course, there are so many experiences. I really want to acknowledge that as well. We're just dipping our toes into this conversation brought on by this study that was published in evolutionary psychology. I want to thank my guest, Ella Weillan, author of What Women Want and Eco Haruna, family photographer and a voice you might know from former presenter of Parentland on the BBC World Service. Thanks for all your messages. Keep them coming 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids.

I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth.

Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, I want to let you know that our next conversation includes a discussion of rape. We want to hear about one brave woman whose case helped bring about a change in rape sentencing guidelines in Scotland after eight years. We're calling her Sophie, not her real name. She was raped by a man pretending to be a taxi driver after a night out in Glasgow that was in 2020. when she was just 20 years old. Sophie spoke at length to Laura Miller, who is at BBC Scotland Newsreader

and also host of the BBC podcast, Scotscast, and joins me now, Scottcast, I should say. I'm adding an extra S there for no reason, Laura. Good to have you with us. Tell me a little bit about how you met Sophie. So she came to us. She emailed in, and she decided that she'd wanted to tell her story.

And it came across my desk, and I gave her a call. And what unfolded was quite a long conversation about what happened to her, about the impact on her, and how she had come through a sort of recovery process. And I think what was, I suppose, disarming in that original conversation was, I guess, this sense of positivity

and a sense of activism. and I came off that call and just thought, wow. This is a woman with the story. I do find it very moving to listen to her, which we'll hear in just a moment. She also thought she wanted to waive her anonymity at the beginning when you were speaking to her. Then she did decide to remain anonymous.

Can you tell us a little bit more? Yes, so, I mean, when I first spoke to her, She really just wanted to tell her story but perhaps hadn't really thought about how she was going to tell it. We had quite a long conversation about this. Her initial instinct was that she'd nothing to hide and she wanted to tell it as she was. Of course, as a journalist, you have a duty of care

to make people aware of what that looks like. And we talked through perhaps some implications of it. obviously she's a young woman, she has a life online. There was a lot of discussion about social media, what that might look like if she were to tell her story in an identifiable way. And, you know, she went away. I gave her time to think about it.

She went away and she decided that she was going to, she wanted to be anonymous. She'd had a conversation with her mum. And she came to that decision. And she'd recently just come out of therapy. And it was a very raw, still a very raw time and I think she'd just

taken that beat and thought right at the moment this is what I want to do but I get the sense that that might change in the future Tell us a little bit more about her case I just gave a line or two at the top Yeah so I mean It is stuff genuinely of nightmares

certainly of every woman's nightmare I'd suggest Sophie was with a friend On a night out in August 2022 height of summer. She was a student. They were out celebrating a friend's birthday. At the end of the night, her friend called a taxi. They went outside, asked the man if that was the taxi in question and they got inside. Except it wasn't a taxi. He wasn't a taxi driver. He was a man called

Barzan Nowashani, married, father of two. He was a Kurdish refugee that came here in 2008 and he said he would take them home. He took Sophie's friend home first and then he took Sophie and he took her to his barber shop where he worked. He pulled down the shutters. He turned off the CCTV and he raped her. Let me turn to Sophie and we're going to bring a little of her. I do want to warn people who are listening. The content of the clip could be upset. I realise at school holidays, you might have younger people with you. But here is Sophie explaining a little of what happened to her. The car had pulled up quite a bit away from where I was supposed to be.

And my alarms kind of were starting to go off. He basically had pointed out a barber shop behind us. And he had basically put up a key and shutters went up. It was just more, I think, for me, that immediate shock of, no, something's really bad to now going to happen. I was kind of analysing everything around me, but my body couldn't actually move to do anything. Quite honestly, the next thing I remember,

and I said this to the police when they had asked me, was being in the middle of that shop, that barber shop, with that door locked and the shutters down. Then it was mainly in my head was, just do as you're told, because I thought honestly, I honestly thought he might kill me. horrendous as you say Laura as Sophie brings us there what was the response from her loved ones when she told them what happened

well do you know she didn't actually tell them immediately she went through the whole process of going to the police her friend went with her and she felt guilt and she felt shame and she couldn't tell her parents initially but when she did I think it was about a week later and she spoke quite clearly about the fact that her mother's response was emotional

and she kind of was expecting that but it was actually her dad's response that broke her when he became terribly emotional and I think whilst they were very supportive of her and wanted to protect her and absolutely to see justice

it sort of was really clear from Sophie's telling of the sort of fragmentation that can happen in a family and the effect of a crime like this, not just on the individual, but on family members. And Sophie went on to talk really honestly about actually how the relationship with her mother broke down and how her mother wanted to step in and protect her and wanted to go to court when it did, wanted to be there every day and Sophie didn't want that she didn't want her mother to be there and to hear the details of what had happened

and that became a really difficult time going through that process and having that sort of fragmentation in their relationship and shows the waves really that can come from an incident that is so horrendous as what Sophie went through

I suppose the consequences of it and the ramifications she went to court and I know there's also she talked about feeling under scrutiny and we're going to also play a little bit off which is her talking about meeting with the defence lawyer. Let's take a listen. I felt like I was kind of under scrutiny,

especially with the cross-examination. I got the option to meet the defence. The lawyer, yeah. Yeah. So thankfully I did take that option. even though I was a wreck, I was like, no, I just need to see that he's human. And he came in and thankfully he was very nice. He said, you know, this isn't personal.

This isn't, you know, I'm not here to call you a liar or like anything like that. I'm just doing my kind of job, which did bring me some comfort. But then when it kind of came to when he started asking me, you know, was this just a night out gone wrong? Like those sorts of questions. kind of backing it on to me and then I just kind of really put my walls up and was like, no. I think it's the last thing that you're prepared for

almost because you're prepared to relive it all and you know what's going to happen and it's emotional but that defence questioning it brings out that anger in you. Sophie there again, her attacker was sentenced to 60 years but the first sentence was appealed and that's really the reason we're talking about this as well because it also became part of a bigger story

that last month new sentencing guidelines came into force in Scotland. Tell us a little bit about that, Laura, and how this plays into it. Yes, so as you say, there was an appeal in this case. The man was found guilty and he was given six years.

And then the Crown appealed it. It wasn't Sophie herself, but it was the Crown that appealed this case because they thought that sentence was unduly lenient. And it went back to court. on appeal and he got eight years with three years supervision that's what they call

an extended sentence in Scotland and it comes against this backdrop of new sentencing guidelines and I think there really was a feeling and Sophie's case plays a part of this of an unduly lenient system in which

wasn't consistent and which needed more transparency and in fact during the period there were sentencing guidelines which were announced in 2018. The draft proposals were in 2024, and they finally came out at the beginning of March this year. But during the period between around December 2020 and August 2025, there were 11 successful appeals on sentence by the Crown for rape convictions.

And in some ways that underlines the need for revoke. form and certainly arguably shows that Sophie's case played a part in that. But there are, they are still guidelines and very much a judge still has discretion and continues to have discretion in this. I want to bring another part of Sophie's conversation with you, Laura. She's talking about the fact that her attacker could be released this year. I think it's the most frustrating thing. Like I'm glad that it went to the appeal.

I'm happy that he got more. But you're kind of thinking, this isn't enough time for me to process, everything, this isn't enough time for me to heal before the inevitable of your released, essentially. What would have been a just sentence for him, do you think? I think it's quite hard, because I think for me, it's like,

sometimes you get that feeling of just lock him up and throw the way the key. I think it needs to get taken a lot more seriously because like I said, despite the appeal and everything, the charges were abduction and rape and I think those two together, I think it needs to be a lot longer. 15, 16 years.

Do you still feel shame? No. The shame shouldn't be with me and the control shouldn't be with him. It's the shame should be with him and the control is with me. I think that's the main. thing that I'm just like continuously saying in my head and reassuring myself that no this is how it should be like me sitting here is how it should be. Sophie there speaking to Laura.

It will remind people Laura, I think, of Giselle Pelico who of course said shame must change sides at her trial which was for rape by her husband and others. Many will remember that in France. How is Sophie now, would you say? I mean just picking up on that that issue of shame it was such a theme in our conversation from her reaction to the initial incident not being able to tell her family to the trial itself feeling shame while under cross examination to the appeal and it was quite a moment in the interview to hear that she'd let that go and in terms of her own attitude now she as I said at the start she really has a positivity which I for one can't imagine

myself feeling at that stage of my life she wants to be able to use this experience to open up conversations about sexual violence against women she wants to be able to raise awareness and she's even talking about going into schools to have conversations with young people about this and to show that she's is an example of somebody that can have something so horrific happened to her, but can come

through it and can actually feel like she has a future. I want to thank you very much. That is Laura Miller, who we've been speaking to this morning about Sophie. You can hear her full interview on the BBC podcast, Scott's cast, available now. And I should say, if being affected by anything you've heard in this interview, you can go to BBC Action Line, where you will find links to support, really. A brave lady. that we've been hearing from this morning. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in, 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, I want to turn to affairs.

What if everyone having an affair was simply swept away, paired with their lover to an unknown city created just for them, a place where their real lives are simply put on pause, waiting for their return. But how long could such a paradise truly hold? It's the premise of permanence. It's a new novel by Sophie McIntosh. You might remember her previous books.

There was the water cure, cursed bread. They've earned her long listings for the Man Booker Prize and the Women's Prize for Fiction, exploring the rich complexity of women's lives. Laura Hackett wrote about this in The Times. She said, it's the kind of book you'll want to read in one long gulp. I felt the same. Good to have you with this, Sophie.

Hi, thank you so much for having me. You're very welcome. Right. So we have Carla and Francis, this couple having an affair that find themselves in a bed, in an alternate world. Tell us a little bit about creating this other world for adulterous couples.

I've always been drawn to sort of speculative or dystopian worlds, you know, areas of like seclusion, things that are like our world, but a little bit different. And I think with permanence, I was thinking a lot about a relationship as a world itself. You know, every relationship is kind of its own ecosystem,

it's its own little kingdom really. And the more I was thinking of that, the idea of permanence kind of grew. And especially with like an affair, you know, it's a kind of an area of such a pressure cooker environment. It's for Clara and Francis, no one else knows about their relationship. And so it's always been so contained.

And I think playing with that idea of containment and making it quite literal and, you know, creating a real city for them that they could play out their relationship within. It's interesting as well because there is, some would say, this hunger at the moment in literature on affairs, but particularly from a woman's point of view. There's Miranda July's all fours, seduction theory, Emily Adrian, the 10-year affair by Aaron Summers. What do you think is behind that as you explore it? It's definitely a very, yeah, so it can ripe time for the affair novel, which I am applauding.

You know, I think maybe it's about the complexity of women's desire, I think, and also kind of the fun of exploring, I think, these different kinds of relationships and all the emotions within them. I think we're seeing yearning be a huge thing at the moment as well. Earning. Yearning, yes, yearning and this idea of like the path not taken or the alternative path. And I think those novels really kind of play with that as well. And I definitely see a lot of that energy in permanence, like the world of the city is really big. built by desire, by yearning, by missing a person. I was really inspired by, well, the original title was object permanence

and that concept that, you know, something that you don't always see has to exist. And they really have to believe in that. You know, the relationship doesn't exist if they're not with each other. And, yeah, playing with that idea and thinking about how we tend to these relationships and really like, you know, almost see them in a religious kind of way. It surprised me because you're kind of taken along with the step. by step. And you kind of realize as the veils are kind of

drawn back off where we are and what's happening. But I was thinking as an author, how did you create that world? What was it based on? I think I was thinking of every romantic holiday I've ever been on. Some perhaps with a few arguments. Yeah, it was really inspired a lot by films.

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind was a big organ for me. I think you know, that's just, it's so beautifully demonstrates love. in a way that is, you know, through that world of the imagination, rather than kind of keeping it grounded in reality. And so thinking about it as the set piece that they can really play out the dramas of their relationship upon

and almost, you know, rehearse for elements maybe that they didn't get to play out in their life together. I mean, I had a feeling while reading it that this can never last in the sense of the world. And perhaps also that relationship, that affair. Were you trying to get that across? There is a dystopian feel to it, even though everything's beautiful most of the time. Yeah.

As I was writing it, I was like, will they end up together? Could they have? I know. Maybe. I think I wanted to keep that ambiguity and I wanted to keep the reader, you know, rooting for them almost. It seems funny in a novel about adultery. You know, we have as readers really strong reactions to that as a topic. but I wanted people to really root for the couple,

to root for love, you know, in that way. It's a very romantic book. But yeah, there is that sense of menace, I think, which is always there. How do you create that? I think just, I'm always really drawn to the macabre and the dark. I think it's quite fun one to deal with here because, you know, everything's love on the surface. But underneath, you know, there's so many, you know,

like in every relationship, there's so many harm. and compromises that you've enacted against the other. And in this kind of paradise space where everything is so tightly contained, like what life do those harms take on? Like, can you forgive? How much can you forgive? How many compromises?

I mean, you know, you've summed it up perfectly, menace. That is the word. That is the underlying feeling as you read it. You talk about being interested in some of those complexities. Your books do focus on women, the water cure you explore, three young women who've been brought up on a desert island away from the Danish.

of men. Blue ticket. Women are given a blue or a white ticket to decide if they will become mothers or not. It's quite interesting considering our previous conversation that we were having about children and how happy they make you. I mean, I'm sexist when I come to my reading. I'm always more drawn to female authors. I'm not sure why that is, but I'm definitely in the right job for it. Is that something for you that you're drawn to the mind or the body of a woman? I think it's that idea again of like female desire specifically like and how often we see that portrayed and how we see it portrayed too. I think my characters are often really driven by strong, strong wants, whether that is kind of romantic or want for something else. Yeah, they are not to go back to yearning again, but they are always like kind of yearning or seeking something.

And I think there's just something so powerful about that and something I'm just drawn to again and again, the idea of, you know, what we'll do for our wants and what our want will make us. Okay, let's talk about it want because I was reading some of your substack, which is a website where you can post blogs, beautiful writing that you have there. And you talk about the cost it has taken on you to write this book and it's giving you as well. You talk about the highs and the lows. We could be talking about parenthood, I guess, as well. But you write every book changes you in some way that may not be immediately apparent. Do you know how this book has changed you? I think, you know, every book is such a journey.

I know that sounds cheesy, but I think it's so, to give so much of yourself and just to spend so much of your time in this, like, made of world, it was like, you know, it was such an escapism for me. And I really loved writing this novel. I think how it's changed me. I've landed feeling calmer, I think. I don't know. My life is very different to when I started writing the novel. Or give me one more line on that before I let you go. I don't know. I feel, yeah, I was in a place of yearning and I am no longer in a place of yearning and that feels like a nice place to be.

Well, that is a lovely way to leave it as well. I want to thank you very much for coming into our studio. That is Sophie McIntosh. Thank you very much. Her book, Permanence, is out now a love story with a hint of menace. It might be one way we could describe it. In tomorrow's program, we're going to be looking at why women More women than men over 50 are not working. There's a new book called Age Against the Machine and it looks at how we could actually be reaching peak performance in those years. So do join us for that. Thanks as well for all your messages that have come in on parenthood,

whether it makes you happier or not. I am having a read through them all. Really interesting, so many experiences. I'll talk to you again about some more. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. Some events have far-reaching consequences. The white noise, everything goes black and apparently I was screaming,

that that's the moment that my life changed forever. I'm Dr. Sean Williams, and I'm meeting the people whose lives have been reshaped in unexpected ways. That brought my heart. I just thought that it's so cruel. Personal stories of loss, discovery and starting over. We do talk about it time to time and about how grateful we are to be in this country to be able to be free.

Life changing from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now.

The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just the story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.