Woman's Hour - Children's Minister Vicky Ford; Scottish Care Homes; Novelist Daisy Buchanan

Episode Date: February 11, 2021

As many as one in six young people now experience mental health problems ranging from depression to self-harm and anorexia. The situation’s got worse over the last year during the pandemic leading some doctors to warn that this is just the “tip of the iceberg” with a “timebomb” on the horizon. The children’s Minister Vicky Ford talks to Emma Barnett about the issues and how Children's and Mental Health Services around the UK are coping as well about her own battles with anorexia whilst growing up.With almost every elderly care home resident in Scotland now vaccinated and the three-week period to build immunity reached, relatives are calling on the government in Scotland, public health teams and care homes, to let residents see at least one close relative or friend in a more natural and regular way. The Broken Hearts campaign is led by Care Home Relatives Scotland, a Facebook group with 1700 members. Twenty three year old, Lucy Challenor is one of those. She explains the impact of having a mother and a grandmother in a care home with very little access. Are you a fan of sexy books? Jilly Cooper and Jackie Collins inspired Daisy Buchanan to write her first novel 'Insatiable' about the sexual adventures of Violet. She joins Emma to discuss writing fiction about female desire.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. We wanted to take a moment right at the start of the programme to mark one woman's story we have followed for years here on Woman's Hour. The prominent Saudi women's rights activist Lujain al-Hathloul has been released from prison. Aged 31, she was instrumental in the movement to allow women to drive in Saudi Arabia. She was detained in 2018, just weeks before the ban was lifted. Her sister tweeted the news yesterday, but her family have warned she's not free.

She may be out of prison, but she isn't free because she will face numerous restrictions while on probation, including a five-year travel ban. Now on today's programme, we want to hear from you if you have a family member in a care home and you haven't been able to visit. Perhaps you've been able to maybe go once, but we're talking about regular access. In a moment, we'll hear from someone who's had both her mother and grandmother in a care home and is part of a large campaign gathering steam to change the laws around being able to have regular access and visitation rights. How has this impacted you and your family? And if you are the person perhaps listening this morning in the care home and you're

able to get in touch, we'd also love to hear from you because campaigners and charities say care home visits must resume next month, a year on since the first lockdown. As they say, the dangers of the virus must be balanced against the harm from loneliness. What is your take on this? What is your experience? I know many of you will have them. If you're kind enough to share 84844 on text, you'll be charged standard message rate or check with your network provider for those exact costs or on social media it's bbc woman's hour at bbc woman's hour or you can email us through our website also on today's program we'll be talking to the children's minister vicky ford she joins us to to speak about pandemic provision for the youngest in our society who are struggling but also to

reflect on something she shared about her own struggles as a young person. And filthy fiction. Daisy Buchanan is with us to explain why she wanted to write a book aimed largely at women filled with sex. And I mean filled. That's all to come. Now, charities and members of the public are demanding that those care home visits must resume. They argue the dangers of the virus has to be balanced.

They have to be balanced against the harm from loneliness and isolation. Nearly a year into the pandemic, all over the UK, there has been a push to pass legislation to allow better access to relatives and loved ones in care homes. This morning, we're going to look specifically at Scotland, where there are 36 residents in care homes at the moment. With almost every elderly care home resident now vaccinated and the three-week period to build immunity reached,

relatives are calling on the government in Scotland, public health teams and care homes to let those residents have more regular and natural access to their families. One push is coming from the Broken Hearts campaign, which is led by Care Homes Relatives Scotland, a Facebook group with 1,700 members. 23-year-old university student Lucy Chaloner has signed up because during the pandemic, she has had both her mother and grandmother in a care home with very little access.

Lucy joins me now from Edinburgh. Good morning. Good morning. Tell us about what happened and what your situation was at the beginning of the pandemic with your mum and grandma. So my mum's had, she's been in care for the last four years and access was very limited. I wasn't able to see her for months. And when I eventually was able to see her, it was outdoor visits for just half an hour. So that was really difficult. I mean, I was going from seeing my mum every week we would go out for walks I would visit her at the care home and stay in her room for hours and chat to not seeing her at all for months on end so it

was extremely difficult for both of us and she's in a care home as well I was just going to come on to your grandma in a moment but because you painted such a vivid picture there of us and my grandma she's in a care home as well. I was just going to come on to your grandma in a moment but because you painted such a vivid picture there of you and your mum and how it had been what was the impact on your mum? Her mental health definitely did decline and family is everything to my mum and visits really kept her going they meant a lot to her so I think she almost lost hope at the start it was kind of like oh maybe this will last a few weeks a couple months but as time went on it was like how long is this gonna last am I ever gonna see my kids again so um her mood was really low and it impacted my mood as well seeing your mum that way um it's heartbreaking and your grandma my grandma um visits have been quite limited there as well um I wasn't able to see her for a while and then it was the window visits and the outdoor visits which were just

heartbreaking I mean my gran's gonna be 99 in March and she's got dementia. So window visits don't really work that well for people with additional sort of needs. And there was quite a few window visits. One of them, she told me she'd rather be dead than in a care home. So hearing that from your grandma when you're through a window, it's just absolutely heartbreaking. That would give all the reasons that people could imagine that you would want to join such a campaign and I want to talk about that campaign a bit more in just a moment but you actually decided to do what

with your mum and your grandma in terms of where they were living? So my mum she's back home with me now she came back in December so she's back home with me now. She came back in December. So she's back home with me and my brother and we're just sort of both looking after her together. My gran, she's still in her care home and I've recently been given essential visiting status. This sadly means that someone's health has deteriorated quite a lot or they may be at end of life so I'm able to see my gran in her room now and I get tested have the PPE and that's just made such a difference. And your mum being at home I mean that's a it's a big move to make if she'd already been into a care home and you'd found you'd felt as a family that that had been the best place for her those decisions are not taken lightly.

That's a big thing for anyone to take on. But I suppose you're studying, you're in your early 20s. How are you finding it? It has been difficult. It has. I mean, I'm a university student as well. So with lockdown, my classes have been online. So I've not had face-to-face lectures. So that has helped

quite a lot, the fact I'm in the house all the time, so I'm able to look after mum and keep an eye on her and stuff. But yeah, it's not a decision that's taken lightly. And I mean, so many families would love to do what I have done, but they're just not able to do so. So in a way, I'm quite lucky I've been able to get her home. And I suppose that means just you know things that we took for granted before this very difficult and awful time like giving her a cuddle is now okay? Yeah I mean that was actually one of the main things me and my mum were so close and every time we would give each other a cuddle when we go see each other and when we say goodbye so even things like sitting on the couch and watching tv together you just really appreciate those

moments. This campaign and it's something that's going on right across the country why did you join it and what do you want to see change? So I joined the group because I was feeling quite alone and I didn't really have anyone to talk to about my situation. I was just kind of looking for some support. In the campaign, it's based on a petition and they're asking for legislation for one designated visitor to have access to their care home resident at all times, regardless of lockdown situations, because so many people haven't even had the window visits or the outdoor visits. This is husbands, wives who, you know, haven't seen each other for months, which must be extremely difficult. I have to say, we're getting messages exactly to that effect. If I can just read a few

here, Alison says, this may not be a a common experience but my aunt is in a care home in Surrey and I live in North London I haven't seen her for over a year now but if I'm honest it's almost a relief her dementia is such that she rarely recognizes us at the best of times if I were to visit in PPE I can't imagine how that would be I find the visits so hard often distressing if I can visit for a real one day a real one day soon I will gladly visit so hard, often distressing. If I can visit for a real one day soon, I will gladly do so. But trying to communicate with her through glass or PPE would be impossible. We're happy with the care she's getting, thankfully. That's from Alison with quite a nuanced position.

Another one here. Tomorrow will mark a year since I was able to enter my 94-year-old mother's room in her care home. The last year has involved lots of change and it's been extremely difficult, but it marks a year tomorrow. It's been a very difficult time. It's been driving for two hours each way to spend a heartbreaking half hour

shouting to her through a locked window. I don't know what you'd say to that. Is that what you're hearing from people? Yeah, I can understand that. The difficulties they're trying to communicate through these window visits or some care homes have installed pods for people with dementia or learning disabilities. I mean, this isn't just elderly people, it's why we're asking to be one designated visitor, tested with PPE in the person's room so we can have meaningful contact again. And those are your requests.

If I look at what the Scottish Government has provided to us as a statement, a Scottish Government spokesperson has said, we understand the severe impact this pandemic has had on people's lives across Scotland and the distress it's caused for people living in care homes and their loved ones. We're acutely aware of the importance of visits for the wellbeing of residents and their friends and family. That's why the Health Secretary has met and will continue to meet relatives of residents in care homes and the Health Secretary will meet those relatives groups again shortly. The Health Secretary has been clear throughout that essential visits should continue to be supported at all stages of

the pandemic in all areas no matter the current level there is a need to balance the safety of residents against the need for them to spend time with their families in consultation with the relatives care home providers and wider social care partners we're working to finalize guidance to support increased contact between care home residents and their loved ones against a backdrop of Level 4 restrictions in place across mainland Scotland. Lucy, as a campaigner, that's what you've now become, is that good enough?

I mean, the problem is if it's only going to be guidance, not legislation, that doesn't mean that definitely every care home in Scotland will follow it. So that's why we've asked for legislation just to ensure that every care home resident does have access to at least one loved one, regardless of lockdown situation. So hopefully they'll publish the guidance soon. But what will happen if care homes don't follow the guidance? Because it is just guidance. And that's the issue here, that you want legislation.

Thank you very much, Lucy, for talking to us. A very striking message here. I've seen my husband in a care home twice since last March, nothing since September. Despite FaceTime and phone calls, he's become very depressed. He now believes that his family have deliberately incarcerated him and he's now very angry. He does not have dementia.

His depression has made him unreasonable, unkind and very different from the man he used to be. It's awful. Very, very powerful message there. Thank you very much for that. My 92-year-old father-in-law, Emma, who's physically fit but suffers from dementia, was due to go into a care home but tested positive and so has had to be self-isolated at home for 10 days. Thankfully, without showing symptoms, possibly because he's been vaccinated.

But now we've been told that he'll be isolated again in the home, this time for two weeks. This is unnecessarily cruel and the care home cannot tell me what purpose this serves. They claim that these are the national guidelines. My wife and I just want them to show some common sense. Keep these messages coming in. They are incredibly powerful because so many of you are experiencing this, hence why it's been a push right across the country around legislation. 84844, that's the number you need to text another one here that just wanted to share my gran has been in a care home for five years we haven't been able to visit her for the last year it's been extremely upsetting not seeing her that was until we got a call last

week saying she contracted covid and was dying now that she's on her deathbed ironically we've been allowed to go in covered covered in PPE to say goodbye. She passed on Friday. I don't know if I feel more upset that she died or that her last vision of humans would have been covered head to toe in plastic. It goes without saying that care home staff deserve medals. That's from Saskia. Saskia, incredibly sorry to hear that and all of our best to you and your family. one here i'm a single person i live alone i've been virtually in solitary confinement for the best part of the year this is driving me mad and another one here reflecting it's not just in terms of you know the the older in in communities or those with um potentially issues that or illnesses that have made them

need to go into a care home suddenly. My brother has Down syndrome and he's now in a care home. He can't understand why he's no longer having weekly visits from the family. However, our main concern is his safety. So hard it is, we'll have to wait until the virus spread in the community is much lower. So somebody there talking about how hard this is, but wanting to keep their family and the care home and those that they love safe. And that, I suppose, is the balance that the government

are also grappling with wherever you are in the United Kingdom. Well, we can talk to a member of that government now because the Children's Minister, Vicky Ford, is joining us to have a discussion about as many as one in six young people now experiencing mental health problems, ranging from depression to self-harm and anorexia. The situation, we understand, has got worse over the last year of lockdowns and school closures, leading to some doctors to warn that the problems we're seeing are just the tip of the iceberg. Vicky Ford last week herself decided to talk about something she struggled with when she herself was in her adolescence.

Vicky Ford, good morning. Good morning. In terms of just your own experience, if I could start with that, because I think it was very striking to read what you had gone through. Could you tell our listeners about that? So yes I think like many people I've been reflecting on the pressures and the anxiety of young people at this time and I thought very hard about my own teenage experience and decided that maybe by talking about my own experience I could help others to seek help. I'd had, well, I think looking back on it

would have been a very turbulent teenage time. My dad died just before I started secondary school. And so I'd spent my teenage years living, apart from my mother, living with different families. Mum was in Ireland. I was in London at a day school. And when I got to my, what's now GCSE but they're no

level year um I really struggled um and started a diet just after Christmas and just carried on not eating um and by the time it got to the summer term I was very skinny and full-blown anorexia. I was incredibly lucky to have a lot of support and love from family and friends that got me through it and started me eating again. But it was an experience that I think I haven't spoken about publicly before, but sometimes I find that when I talk about how I felt at that time, it has helped other families and helped other people with eating disorders to give them some hope and encourage them to seek some help. You also volunteered the information that when you were 15, as you're talking about, you weighed just five and a half stone, which, you know, for anybody who is familiar with eating disorders or not, you know, will know how severe that is. Yeah, I was really very skinny. And the weird thing, looking back on it for myself, is that I didn't recognise how sick I was.

And I think that's quite common when I talk to people who are experts in anorexia is that you don't recognise how sick you've become. Other people can see how ill you are. But you just, for me, it was a way of controlling something when I felt that my life was somewhat out of control. And that's often quite common with eating disorders as well. And especially, I suspect that's why it's been such a thing in this pandemic because a lot of us have felt that anxiety of normality um just not being there and therefore worried and anxious about the future feeling that we don't have the control over our future that maybe we would have wanted and that that's why, often young people would turn towards showing that anxiety through eating disorders. In terms of then your position now, because you are in a position to try and help people and make difference.

That's the point of government and you're the children's minister. How frustrated have you been, for instance, when people will read that Jeremy Hunt, the former health secretary, of course, we can come back to some of his record perhaps within the NHS, but now chair of the Health Select Committee, has described children's mental health services as the single weakest area of NHS provision. How frustrated do you get with that? And do you recognise that as the reality? So actually I've since started the job over the past year I've been actually quite impressed by the amount of work that's gone into improving mental health so within schools which is my remit as it were we've put in two big projects to help schools one of which is to introduce the new compulsory curriculum on relationships, sex and health. And that includes learning on healthy eating, how to get

support if you have mental health concerns, but also how to build your own resilience. We rolled that out earlier on the plan, but because of the pandemic, we rolled that out with a lot of training and support and materials for schools. And we also sorry if i may just before we go to the second one there will be people listening to this thinking it's very hard for schools to deliver lessons at the moment never mind what sounds like well-intentioned support is that feasible well it was interesting because we also rolled out training and we did a webinar where we had over 14,000 teachers take part. So they've really been reaching out to take part in that training and get that help. We also have on this project called Wellbeing for Education Return where

we've had a local trained expert in every area available to give training and support to teaching staff because the teaching staff often will see the problems early on. And then the question is, where do they go for support? And then within the health service, there's been a huge investment over the past couple of years in mental health and particularly in tackling eating disorders for young people, for children and young people. We have a target that for urgent cases, if they need to be taken into hospitals, they should be within 95% of them seen within a week. Now, obviously, there's pressure on the mental health,

but we've also, because of the pandemic, but we've also been increasing the amount of local support services for those with eating disorders. So that's been a real priority over the past couple of years, another half a billion pounds going into mental health this year in order to address some of these issues. When Jeremy Hunt says it's the single weakest area of NHS provision, it's his job now to hold the government to account, he's got it wrong? No, I think he's pointed that this is an area that's needed extra investment. Extra investment is coming through that long-term plan for the NHS, but also this extra half a billion pounds this year. We've got a long-term commitment to train mental health support teams across the

country for our schools and to have a lead trained in every school for mental health support. So those have been long-term commitments. It does take some time to train people to be really expert in children's mental health and that's why it's a long-term commitment. Of course it's been a Conservative government for the last 10 years. There has not been a change of personnel. And that would be prudent to point out at this point. But just to go back to the area around delivery and local councils, you know, local councils fund children's mental health services. They say funding stagnated, demand has risen, waiting times have increased, and they say that the money isn't ring-fenced, all of which adds up to a cocktail of very, very difficult reality that perhaps they don't see represented in what you just said.

Oh, I'm sorry, I believe you've just gone on to mute, perhaps. I can see that you're talking. The minister is still with us. Yes, you are there, but you are still on mute, Vicky Ford. If you could just unmute yourself. Hello. Sorry, that's another pound fine to the NSPCC. They're making a lot of money out of me at the moment. Every time I go on mute, I do apologise. That's all right.

I'd encourage other people to do that as well the charities well that's a nice idea did you did you hear my question about ring fenced yes I did in terms of the support for for mental health obviously the main amount of support comes through the long-term plan for the NHS which particularly identified the need to invest further funding in mental health and that that was a plan that, as you know, we started a few years ago, an extra £500 million going in this year. In terms of the local authority support to schools, this is why we set up, as I described, the Wellbeing for Mental Health project, which has been taken up by nearly every local authority,

well over 90% of the local authorities across the country. And it's a specific funding stream to enable them to hire at least one specialist in every area to give that direct support to schools at this time for young people of 30%. Sorry, I specifically asking about money being ring fenced for services, not support for schools, although that will play a part. Do you think very clear question? Do you think that money should be ring fenced, especially ahead of some kind of budget announcement we're expecting from the chancellor? comes through the NHS. And then the funding that we've put in for the particular support for young people through schools has obviously been, is ring-fenced in that project. But there are parents listening to this trying to get help right now for their children who won't recognise what you're saying. So actually what I've encouraged people to do is to come forward and get that help. There's

a significant amount of help out there much improved from when I was young much improved actually from even the past couple of years with respect I think they're trying and if they go for example last week was um at children's uh mental health week uh we've produced a huge list of advice for parents of different places they can go to to get help and support if your child is is is extremely unwell then the first point of call of course must be to be your gp who can refer them on children's mental health services have continued during the pandemic and a lot of those um the therapies and discussions have happened uh digitally which for many young people have helped them but the referrals as we

know there needed to be extra investment into mental health services and that has come uh in in the past few years and an extra 500 million coming this year. There is urgent help right now. If you sought help, if you've done exactly what you've said and you haven't still been able to get it. One of the other things we've done during the pandemic is we've set up a 24-7 crisis helpline for mental health that's there on the NHS 111 111 service it's in every single trust across the country and we've made sure that that is there for adults as well as for children for

children as well as for adults so there's a message there's a message from Paula saying my daughter waited nearly two years from an autistic spectrum diagnosis over two years that we first asked for help she's still waiting to see a psychiatrist she's self-harming we're desperate we really want help the minister isn't providing it no name on that i'm sorry paula excuse me name on that so so paula what i would say if you're if your child is self-harming and serious problems do call that mental health crisis line. And we're also in the process of going through a major review of the special educational needs and disability system, the SEND review, which is an absolute top priority. And I will be reporting on that later on this spring.

Children's Minister Vicky Ford, thank you for your time. Now, companies that have more than 250 employees need to get back to keeping records of their gender pay gap. Well, that's the message from the head of the Chartered Management Institute, Anne Franker. Keeping a record of what men are paid compared to women, it was mandatory. But since COVID started, the government says it's not a requirement anymore. Companies can still do it if they want, but they don't have to. Anne Franker, good morning.

Good morning. companies can still do it if they want but they don't have to and frank a good morning good morning this stopped was it uh last march as we went into lockdown the government not feeling like there should be any extra pressure on companies during these strange times what's wrong with that uh well there's a couple of things firstly the announcement was made march 24th which is about a week before the deadline so the reality is most companies have already compiled the data and could have filed it. The second thing is, as we know, this pandemic has adversely affected women more than men. And so if we don't keep the spotlight and the pressure on gender pay gap reporting, it's very likely that there will be a big setback in a so-called she-session as a result of this.

That's what more and more people are talking about. The gender pay gap service is actually a very new thing. It's only been in place since 2017. Reporting revealed in 2019 that eight out of 10 British companies paid men more than women. So there is some evidence that can be used there or be useful, which I presume is part of the basis of your argument. But it's not without its critics, this particular system. And I wonder what you would say to that people saying, either it doesn't go far enough because it only uses big companies data, or actually the data itself isn't a good enough data set. So the first point I completely agree with.

I think that the reporting requirement should be extended to smaller companies, and in many other countries it is. So I completely agree with that point. 250 is a somewhat arbitrary cutoff point. The second point to the critics, I actually think the UK reporting system is pretty robust because it doesn't just look at the overall pay difference between men and women. It looks at something that I think is super important, which is the quartile. So how many women are in the bottom 25% of companies versus the top 25% of companies? And that shape looks like a pyramid and And it is the

root cause of the pay gap. Too many women in the bottom quartile, not enough women in the top. And by fixing that, promoting more women into leadership roles, you will fix your gender pay gap. Do you think it's going to come back? Do you worry it might not? I really think it has to come back. It was a very good progressive policy. It's absolutely the wrong time to get rid of it. I really hope they don't get rid of it for this reporting cycle. And actually, I hope they introduce an ethnicity pay gap report as well. That's the recommendation of myself and other experts.

Have you heard anything from the Equalities Minister? She's also very busy with trade, of course. She's the Secretary of State for International Trade, Liz Truss. She's looking at how businesses are coping right now, perhaps making that case they don't need anything else added to their plate. Has she said anything more on this? No, I think that what we've heard is it's under review. Well, you know, everything's under review. This is a simple, straightforward policy. Many companies have this data readily to hand. It's a really important thing to look at during this pandemic

so you don't inadvertently create further backwards steps for your female employees. So you would think companies more than ever now need to be reporting this data. And have you got any information on, it's one thing to have the data, but then how companies, women and men, have used that information to perhaps close that gap? Yes. So the more enlightened companies don't just report the data. They report action plans alongside the data to close their pay gap. And there are a number of things that people can do. But the simplest thing that I recommend is promote proportionately, because actually, as I said, if you look at the bottom 25% of companies, there are equal or sometimes even more women than men.

So if you just promoted proportionately as you moved up your ladder, you could solve this problem. And that's most of the cause of this pay gap. We need more women in more senior roles, including government. We'll see what happens. As you say, it's under review. Anne Franke, thank you very much for your time. We're talking there about companies with more than 250 employees needing to go back to keeping records of their gender pay gap. In terms of a message that just came in from Anna, one might say that now is just such a time when the gender pay gap should be monitored more closely than ever and action taken immediately. So view straight in on that. Keep them coming in, please, at BBC Women's Hour on social media

or if you want to text us, we're on 84844. Let's talk filthy fiction now, shall we? Daisy Buchanan's first novel, Insatiable, features Violet, a 20-something woman whose life has not turned out quite as she thought. Her job is disappointing, her last relationship ended badly, she's broke, her accommodation is rubbish and she's fallen out with her best friend. Violet craves excitement, money and sex.

Lots of sex. When a mysterious couple offer her a role in their start-up company, it seems that the glamorous life she craves has arrived and the Friday night sex parties they host are an exciting bonus. Can Violet get what she really wants? We'll talk to Daisy in just a moment but she kindly recorded us a reading and I just want to say this extract does contain sexual content so if you're not up for that you have been warned and if you are turn the volume up. Leaning forward I kiss Lottie on the lips softly before pulling away shocked by my own audacity.

For a second, I'm scared that I've got this very, very wrong until I hear the smile in Lottie's voice. Let's see what might happen. Her right hand grazes my left thigh as she twists her body towards me, kissing me back. Her lips have parted slightly. For a second, we're both coy, waiting for a signal from each other. But then her tongue is in my mouth and I'm closing my eyes, oblivious to everything but the heat of her, the weight of her body against mine, and the silk of her hair, the curve of the back of her head against the palm of my hand. She moans, forcing her body harder

against mine. I'm aware of a hand in the front of my dress, reaching for a nipple through thick lace. Grinding against me, she pushes me down along the length of the chaise, while feeling for the hem of my dress. It's up and over my head and I gasp, momentarily panicking that she might have ripped it or seen the reduced to clear hole or both. I don't know how many times I've imagined doing this with another woman, but now that it's really happening, I feel excited and terrified. What if it's bad? What if I'm bad? Daisy Buchanan, reading from her book, Insatiable. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. How do we follow that? It's very very weird to hear myself reading that to me. To all of us. You say it's a love story

for greedy girls and there's this well you describe it your your cover is fantastically memorable. I'd really like to mention the amazing designer, Becky Guyatt, who has done this beautiful, beautiful cover art that is, it's a sort of electric Pantone orange. You've got a beautiful orange, the fruit with a bright green leaf being ripped apart by someone with a, I think it looks like they've got Chanel Rouge Noir. Sorry, it's the BBC. I can't say that word.

Some nail varnish on. Dark red nail varnish. Other nail varnishes are available. And they are pulling apart this juice, the juice of the fruit, in a very hungry way. I really wanted to use the word greedy in the subtitle because that's something that I have wrestled with and my friends have wrestled with and women I'veges how sexual she wants to be also with issues around food and eating and ambition and she's so scared I think to admit what she wants and to own it because she's terrified that someone will tell her off and say no and that she's she's too much and

you know I believe that's universal. Is it a love story or how could we understand what it is what you're trying to achieve with this book I really wanted to talk about emotions and vulnerability there are lots of jokes in it as well but Violet does go through some really difficult times and she looks for love in the wrong places and as you know I hope in the tradition of the the best love stories she mistakes things for love but she does get there in the end I think that there are people who exploit her and people who encourage her to give her power away but then there is a moment when a very surprising person turns out to be the one who really sees her as she is and wants the best things for her.

How hard is it to write sex? Well um because there's a lot of it in there there is a lot of it my first tip is to uh pretend to yourself that's never, ever going to get published. You know, you're never going to see it. I'm a huge, huge fan of Jilly Cooper and Jackie Collins and Inan, all of those writers who've done it so, so beautifully. And, you know, there are lots more there I haven't mentioned, I'm sure. I think that, you know, you just have to get into it. I was at school when I did drama. I was never very good at drama, but I remember all of those exams where you have to,

I conveyed emotion by raising my palm to my face. And there's definitely, I think, a little bit of that in there. When you get into it, I think you go into a headspace that feels weirdly peaceful. The flow of the writing, you know, really removed me from a lot of the anxieties of life. And I really hope that comes across. I really hope it helps the readers to escape as well.

I think we need that at the moment. Yes, everyone's needing that, I'm sure. You know, whether they need it through this, whole other discussion, but, you know, they're listening and they're hearing your experience there and why you wanted to do this. And the language of sex is often, I mean, but they're listening and they're hearing your experience here and why you wanted to do this. And the language of sex is often, I mean, it's much mocked because other people feel embarrassed or we have the bad sex awards

and all those sorts of things. But how did you find finding the words to describe our bodies? Because we're living in such a pornified culture in many ways and even the language that gets used is sometimes not the language that women would use about themselves. I think that's true. And something I really wanted to explore in the book as well was all of those tensions.

I think that certainly I feel, growing up, I'm 35 and I grew up in this sort of culture of pornification and I remember reading Ariel Levy's Female Chauvinist Pigs, also Simon Dunan's excellent counterpart, Glamorous Eccentrics, about the way that women are encouraged to commodify themselves and it felt to me as though there was a moment when all of popular culture was saying porn is ironic and you've got to pretend that you're down for all of it. But your desires don't come in to it at all. And we all sort of, well, I certainly felt that pressure to really objectify myself. And then suddenly there was this roar of voices that were sort of saying, no, you're doing it wrong.

No, you shouldn't. You know know this is all very very bad and I suppose I really wanted to explore that tension of the things that you know we want on one level that appeal to us do feel wrong and they're sort of all sorts of complicated double standards at play and just to explore what it's like when you give room to that voice and all you know I think it's really the book is very much about desire and how there's lots of sex everywhere, but very little conversation about desire, especially desire that women feel. And I wanted to look at that and find out what that is

and where is that coming from and where is that taking us? And where did you come out on that? Because, of course, that begs the question around sexual capital and your main character, Violet. Does she have it? Is she in control of it? What would you say about that? And what are you trying to say through her? I think she feels in control and she has an illusion and she's a little bit in denial about things and delusional about things. And she falls into this world because she really wants to experience freedom and liberation and also I think that she

would never know how to make this happen for herself she feels like she's seizing an opportunity what I think and what you know what I hope readers take is that sexually she for the most part with some exceptions is you know very willing but emotionally the exploitation that comes there and that's where she's vulnerable that's where she's unguarded and unarmed and well I mean I was just please I apologize what this is your story this is your experience but I do have to ask you said the best way to write sex is to imagine it won't be published. It has been published, Daisy Buchanan. Have your nearest and dearest read it? And did that ever, the thought of that,

because you knew it was going to be published, presumably, at some point, did that make you tone it down a bit? Or did you think, you know what, they're grown-ups, they can deal with it? Yeah, certainly my sisters have read it and been very supportive um I'm not mentioning it to my parents I'm really hoping um that their radio gets stolen this morning and it doesn't go in their ears but I think I feel brave and I feel brave because I'm terrified I wrote this because it's the sort of book that I would love to read as I say and I think that I really wanted to write a book that was I suppose appealing and um no pun on the orange that people would take into their hearts and I just I felt that if this is the sort of book that

I want to read and that I wish there were more of, then other people might feel like that as well. And obviously, you know, I did have moments, I think, in the early hours this morning. Is it too late to stop? No, no. And you've come on. And you know what, Daisy, I'm going to remember that. I feel brave because I'm terrified. Might get that on a T-shirt. Daisy Buchanan with her book Insatiable. Thank you very much. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

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