Woman's Hour - Choirs, Sexual Assault on University Campuses, Retirement, Losing Your Belongings

Episode Date: August 28, 2020

Presented by Jenni Murray.A 16 year-old young woman looking at universities came across the St Andrews Survivors page on Instagram with more than 100 stories of sexual assault. She only read a couple but consequently wiped St Andrews off her potential university list. Her mother, a Woman’s Hour listener, wrote to us to saying she felt universities are not doing enough to address this problem, and was concerned with the impact this could have on young women going to university. Jenni is joined by Sara Khan, NUS Vice President for Liberation and Equality for an update on a problem that has been raised many times in the last few years. How successful have universities been in addressing this?What singing can do for your mental health? We hear how much some listeners are missing being part of choirs, and also from those who have been finding alternative ways to sing as a group online and even outdoors. Jenni discusses the issues with listener Carolyn Acton, Sandra Colston, MD Funky Choir MD and Liesbeth Tip Clinical psychologist at the School of Health and Social Science at University of Edinburgh. Listener Jan Courtney describes her experience of retiring and finding it hard to adjust to her new life, and describes meeting “juicy crones” –other women of a certain age who are having adventures and doing extraordinary things. Listener, Eve, lost all of her belongings when she was a student. She would like to know how other people cope when it happens to them. She joins Jenni, along with Pat Plumbridge and Sue Hepworth, to discuss what was lost, how they came to terms with this, the items they miss and how the experience has shaped their attitude to possessions.Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Friday the 28th of August. Good morning and welcome to the last programme in this Listener Week when all the subjects under discussion have been suggested by you. Today, the choir during lockdown. Caroline wrote to tell us how much she's missed singing with her friends. Friendships formed as a result of joining a choir.

Jan Courtney found the adjustment to retirement and a new life really hard. She's found comfort in meeting other, what she calls juicy crones, older women with plenty of life left in them. And Eve told us about losing her belongings as a student. How do you recover from losing everything you hold dear? First though, a message on Instagram from Nicky, who was concerned about her 16-year-old daughter, who's been thinking about where she wants to go

to university. She had thought about St Andrews until she came across the University of St Andrews survivors page. With more than 100 stories of sexual assault, she immediately crossed St Andrews off her list. Nicky wondered if universities were doing enough to address the problem. Here's some of what her daughter had read. I created St Andrew's Survivors because I was tired of hearing stories of assault on our campus and seeing nothing change. I know that every single student at St Andrew's is in some way affected by sexual violence, whether they're a survivor, know someone who is, or perhaps even an abuser themselves. Hearing these stories over and over, many about the

same alleged perpetrator, I reached a breaking point where I couldn't just passively listen. I made the account to simultaneously stimulate a discussion about abuse on our campus and to empower survivors to share their stories on a large platform while maintaining privacy. The ultimate goal is to compel the population of St Andrews who remained unaware of or apathetic to this issue to pay attention to the reality of sexual abuse in our community. The response has been overwhelmingly positive though I do think some people question the validity or even legality of an account like this. The majority of the comments and messages we've received have been thanking us

for creating the space, apologising for any harmful words that may come our way, and sharing stories of how the account has brought them or others healing. Accounts like these are shocking and provoking, and I was not expecting it to be universally supported but I do think it's the type of radical transparency that's needed to force people to pay attention. First and foremost I want the students of St Andrews to be aware of the prevalence of sexual violence in our town. One of the main comments received has been that people just didn't know the scale of the problem and there lies one of the key issues. The first step to progress is awareness. Secondly but just as important I wanted to provide a large yet anonymous platform for survivors to share their story. Those who haven't experienced these kind of traumas are often unaware

of the power and validation that comes from telling someone what happened to you. As many of our posts have illustrated, when people share these experiences with friends, family, university staff, or even law enforcement, the response is not always helpful for the survivor. I wanted to provide a platform where survivors know that they are protected from judgment or questioning and that their words are at the forefront of the conversation.

I hope that the massive growth of the accounts following means that people are becoming actively engaged in this conversation. If one person feels in some way healed by this, that's ultimately all I could have hoped for. What I want and what I feel we as students have complete control over is changing the way we discuss these issues. I want this account to change the way lads' group chats talk about women. I want this account to make girls realise that if a guy doesn't seem keen to have sex,

it's not your place to convince him. I want this account to make people reassess the way they've responded when a friend told them they were assaulted. I want this account to highlight and expose the nuances of sexual violence and abuse. Most of all, I want this account to diversify and broaden the conversation, opening it to anyone who wants to contribute. Well, naturally, we asked the university for their response. A spokeswoman said, our challenge is to create a culture in which students have the confidence to report sexual misconduct, knowing they will be taken seriously

and receive the best possible support. The most important thing is we want survivors to come forward and get help, secure in the knowledge that we will listen without rushing to judgment, solutions or taking control away from them. But are universities in general taking campus sexual assault seriously? Well, Sara Khan is the Vice President for Liberation and Equality at the National Union of Students. Sara, how surprised are you at the words of the student who set up the Survivors page? Good morning, Jenny. Unfortunately, I am not surprised by the words of this student. Many similar survivors networks exist at institutions across the UK, not just St. Andrews. that at least 75% of students have reported at least one unwanted sexual experience during their time at university. Now, this is only the tip of the iceberg also, as many cases go unreported. So unfortunately, I can't say that I am surprised by the students' words. Now, 75% reporting assaults is an incredibly high number.

What have the universities done in response to those reports? So I suppose to clarify, sorry, Jenny, that's 75% who reported to us in our research. That's not the figure that have reported to their universities. In response to reports of sexual violence on campus, universities are taking varied approaches across the board. A lot of them put if a student reports sexual violence they will go through a disciplinary procedure so a panel will kind of deal with that report but the sort of support that survivors

experience while they're going through a formal process is spotty at best and a lot of the time survivors networks like the one at St Andrews and local organizations have to take the responsibility upon themselves to provide the person-focused trauma-focused support that those survivors need. Unfortunately Unfortunately, research by the NUS and by the 1752 group shows that 90% of students who report, formally report, sexual violence to their university reported feeling unsatisfied by their university's response, feeling unsupported, and feeling like the conclusion of those disciplinary procedures, which, you know, are a huge amount of emotional and physical burden on someone who has just experienced a deep trauma, that that support from their university was insufficient. Now, Nikki, who wrote to us worried about her daughter, expressed concern about the rise in fraternities. How true is it that more of these fraternities have been formed? The issue with sexual violence in campus is certainly one in

the context of fraternities, but I think it's so important kind of as the student who set ups an Andrews Survivors Network very powerfully said to note the absolute like devastating vast scale of this issue research by Rape Crisis UK shows that approximately 90% of those who are sexually assaulted know the perpetrator prior to the offence. So this idea that sexual violence only occurs, you know, in certain spaces, in fraternities and in nightclubs, of course it happens in those spaces, but we really, really need to recognise the scale of this problem, that anyone could be a perpetrator, that fraternities are a problem, but so are all university societies. Any space where an imbalance of power exists or any space like that. Imbalance of power. Are you maybe referring to staff as well as students?

I am indeed. I think that this is an issue that universities are particularly failing to address at the moment. I alluded earlier to the 1752 group, which is an absolutely vital organisation that the NUS has worked with to do research into the specificity of staff sexual misconduct. I talk about imbalances of power because it's a similar issue, isn't it, in fraternities or student societies that a lot of the time allows this kind of abuse of power to happen is that certain individuals have power over others and abuse that power and abuse those individuals. Now, universities are, many are taking the move to develop kind of sexual violence and harassment policies, but the way that this approaches staff sexual misconduct and the specificity of that misconduct is not always sufficient. What are universities actually obliged to do?

I mean, for instance, should they have consent training in place or is that pointless? Currently, there is no obligation or requirement for universities to respond to sexual violence on campuses in any particular way. There are some reports which have emerged over the past few years, including UUK's Changing the Culture report, and these vital pieces of research do outline that there is a problem. So universities are aware that there is a problem on their campuses and such reports make recommendations but the picture of kind of how universities are responding to this is scatty

because there is no obligation or requirement for them to respond in any particular way. Overall it shows that you know we recognize that there's a problem and institutions recognize that there is a problem, but there is no kind of uniform approach to tackling this problem. And recommendations simply do not go far enough to tackle an issue that is so widespread, this widespread amount of violence. I think that consent workshops are certainly an aspect, a very important aspect of this because, you know, we need education on healthy relationships and sexual consent in order to, you know, prevent this from happening, to reduce those rates of violence. However, consent training alone is not enough. In the first instance, a lot of the time, these pilots on campuses at the moment are completely optional, which means, you know, for the most part, the people who need to be taking that training probably aren't taking that training. But universities also need robust policies on sexual violence,

outlining how they will support victims not only of student-on-student violence, but of staff student violence. They need robust policies and robust person-focused, trauma-focused support for the survivors. Zahra Khan, thank you so much for joining us this morning. I must say that we asked for a statement from the Office for Students and a spokesperson there said, any form of harassment and sexual misconduct is utterly unacceptable on campus as it is in wider society. It's crucial that students who experience harassment or sexual misconduct get the support they need and that any complaints of harassment and sexual misconduct are taken seriously and dealt with effectively.

Many institutions are taking concrete steps to address the issue and the OFS has funded 119 projects in universities and colleges across the country to develop initiatives and share them across the sector. But we all need to do more for the students who are still being let down by ineffective procedures and inadequate support. And again, Sarah Khan, thank you very much for your contribution. Now, it's been pretty well established that singing in a choir is good for you. It's a benefit physically and mentally, and it gives you the chance to make new friends with whom you meet regularly for choir practice. Well, two of you wrote to us about the impact of the virus on their choirs. Catherine Venables said her community choir

had been a lifeline, but they hadn't met since March, and she worried about the effect it will have on their cultural life. Will they ever get back to singing together? Well, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport recently issued guidelines and said it should be possible for choirs to meet again outside or in a COVID-secure venue. Carolyn Acton wrote to us to say her choir, Funky Voices, had managed to keep her going through the last few months. Here they are singing together. Maybe we can make it if we're all too hard.

And we can build this dream together, standing strong forever. Nothing's gonna stop us now. And if this world runs out of lovers, we'll still have each other. Nothing's gonna stop us. Nothing's gonna stop us nothing's gonna stop us ooh wait a minute let me take you there

Papa was a rolling stone wherever he laid his hat was his home and when he died all he left us was alone and COVID-19 ain't gonna stop funky voices. We're joined by Sandra Colston, who leads them.

Lisbeth Tipp, who's a clinical psychologist at the University of Edinburgh, researching the effects of singing on well-being and mental health. And, of course, we're joined by Carolyn, who wrote to us. Carolyn, what do you get from being part of the choir which by the way sounds terrific well yeah exactly i felt really proud listening to that it was it was great um just huge fun and yeah great benefit in terms of mental health stress relief just really picks you up during normal times when you've had a really hard day at work. You can feel absolutely exhausted and go along and you

just feel brilliant. And then obviously during lockdown, we were so lucky that Sandra put it online so we could carry on singing. And it really was lifeline um to me and to everyone else in the choir i think to to give us to be able to keep going and see everyone on screen and uh and just take part yeah it was really good but sandra how much has your job leading the choir changed as a result of lockdown can't be easy doing it all on screens. No, it's very different. The main difference being that obviously I don't leave the house. So we've converted one of our rooms in the house into a mini studio

to be able to give them the best that we can. So we also created a green screen behind where I teach from so that we can reflect who's actually in the choir that night. So then the members can all still see each other. Otherwise, if we just purely did it on an audio basis, just using like a simple Zoom, as you said, then they would only see me and themselves as one-to-one. So we've created as much as possible as we can.

And I can't hear them. Can they hear each other? No. It must be quite difficult to keep in tune and keep the different types of... What's it called? I can't remember the technical term. Yeah, there's pitching and keeping them all together.

Basically, I'm trusting that they are doing that in their homes. That's all on trust. What I've done is recorded the parts, so like a soprano and alto part or the different pitching within the choir myself and that's what they can hear. So we stream that to them via the audio and then they can pick which part they know they're supposed to,

so like a higher part or a lower part and they sing it through that. Does that make sense? Yeah, parts. That was the word I was searching for earlier, which I just couldn't think of. Elizabeth, if I can bring you in here, what is it about singing, particularly in a group, that makes it so good for mental health?

Well, to my knowledge, there's three key reasons why singing is good for you and especially singing in a choir the first i would say are the biochemical or the physiological processes for example endorphins go up cortisol goes down i already heard the first speaker say you know stress levels go down so So yeah, that kind of goes together. And oxytocin goes up. Breathing in itself, you know, breathing exercises can be very relaxing and are used as relaxation exercise in itself. So and then the second reason are the psychological processes that most people are not aware of when they are in a choir.

For example, in cognitive behavioral therapy, you have something called exposure. When you expose yourself to things that you're a bit anxious about, it can actually reduce the anxiety you feel over time. And as you all know, you know, singing together can be quite overwhelming when you first start. So it's definitely out of your comfort zone. So you challenge yourself. And it also gives a sense of mastery, a boost to your self-esteem, doing things out of your comfort zone, as well as habituates, as they call it, the anxiety response. And for people with low moods in cognitive behavioural therapy, behavioural activation is something that can help people

have more positive experiences. And at the same time, new experiences and doing more things can also challenge any negative expectations people have from certain situations. So that is another... What about people, Lisbeth, who think, oh, no, I can't sing. I'd be far too embarrassed easy way to start when you're all muted. But it's very rare that someone can't sing because you have muscles in your neck and throat that actually help you sing

and produce sounds. And there's a lot you can learn. And even by being around other people, you can pick up on those habits and improve your singing. Carolyn, I know you've had a meeting outdoors, socially distanced, driving practice in a field. What was it like to finally get together again, even though you had to be distanced? Oh, it was amazing. It was brilliant. It was quite emotional, I think, for Sandra

and for everyone taking part. It was so good to see everyone. And also, so Sandra has been teaching us new songs during lockdown. And so we got a chance to actually hear everyone singing them for the first time, not just us ourselves trying to sing along online. So it was really special, yeah. How well did they work together again, Sandra, when they could really hear each other?

It was amazing, actually, yeah. As Carolyn said, it was almost like a science project in itself without realising until the day I thought, gosh, I've not actually heard this in real life and realised that they hadn't heard it either. But they didn't seem nervous at all, so that was cool. But as soon as they started, it just took my breath away because one, I hadn't heard them for five months

and two, they'd managed to learn these songs that I'd never taught them in a conventional situation, as we'd normally rehearse for the first time. And they had got it all exactly how I was teaching it every night. They'd got it. So it worked. So the experiment worked. And it was more than emotional, it was exciting it was everything and I had to stop and conduct and then just

listen and watch and just try and take it all in I was quite breathless I know you're working on advice for choir directors like Sandra what are you advising them about helping with mental health problems now they can maybe begin to get together again?

That's a good question. We're just at the start of the research for the specific toolkit. It's a project that is led by dr uh ewan irons together with michael bonshaw david sheffield sophie boyce and lewis howe from the science cali um and it's a project that will last a year so we will uh interview choir leaders about best practice that have um guided uh choirs you know conducted choirs with um that were inclusive for mental health. But I think in general, if you look at the specifics for choirs and mental health, the benefits of singing in a choir, that choir is a community and sense of belonging is very important and acceptance.

That is also something that we looked at in Harmony Choir, a research project I did a couple of years ago and the choir is still ongoing. But yeah, sorry, I hope this all makes sense. There's so much to say. It makes perfect sense. But Lisbeth, there we must end.

Lisbeth Tip, Sandra Colston, Caroline Acton, thank you all very much indeed. And Sandra, I bet you can't wait to get your choir together properly. And Caroline, I bet you can't wait to be a part of it. And the very best of luck to all of you. Thank you so much. Now, still to come in today's programme, Eve, who wrote to us about losing all her belongings.

It happened to her as a student and pats were lost in a fire. How did they cope? And the serial, the final episode of Electric Decade, Alice B. Tockler's cookbook. Now, Jan Courtney sent us an email explaining a problem that will at some time affect us all. Retirement. How do you adjust to a life that is so different from what went before when you still see yourself as what she calls a juicy crone? Older, yes, but still with plenty of life left in you. She joins us from a rural area on the border of Gloucestershire and Herefordshire.

Jan, good morning. Good morning, Jenny. What was life like until you retired four years ago? Well, like many women of my age, I was very busy. I had a full-on career. I had a young, energetic, fabulous team working for me. I had two grown-up daughters. My first granddaughter had been born. I, like many others, supported elderly parents. I was luckily very financially secure. You know, I was very lucky, but I hadn't been very well, and so I had to start thinking about retirement.

You're still only 62, so you were 58 when you retired. How much thought in advance had you given to what you might do in retirement? The honest truth, almost nothing. I found myself surprised that I was even eligible to retire. I hadn't thought about it. I'd enjoyed my work. I'd enjoyed it all. But, you know, I'd travelled a lot. We had lots of friends around. I didn't honestly think it would be a problem. I'd never been a person who got bored. I had lots of things I thought I wanted to do. But the reality was different. Now you say you felt beige what do you mean by feeling beige? I think so many things were different that I wasn't expecting I mean silly things really like socializing during the day which somehow didn't feel very grown up a lot I realized a lot of my friends were also colleagues and as the connection with work began to fade some of those relationships began to fade too and that was difficult and I looked around my local area and there were plenty of

groups available for retirees but quite often I was put by either it just being all older people or they all seem to have names relating to colours like silver this, that and other, or green, evergreen. And I don't know, it just felt like I was being pigeonholed. Now you quoted in what you sent to us, Virginia Woolf, finding yourself free for the strangest adventures. So what sort of strange adventures have you decided to take part in well I think I realized quite early on that if if this period in my life was going to mean something I had to find out a bit more about myself I didn't have I didn't know how to do this bit of my life so I like the last speaker said I tried to do things outside of my comfort zone so I took on courses went on courses with names like

drawing for the terrified or wild writing I joined a choir that I'd never done before I tried leather work I even joined a course that I'd never done before. I tried leather work. I even joined a course that was called Selfish, which challenged our relationship with feeling guilty about doing the things we want to do. So are you now completely selfish as a result of that? I don't know. I think you'd have to ask my family that question. No, obviously, my family are still my focus. But I think it's important to have passions in your life, things you enjoy doing for yourself, too.

I know you studied for an MA. How helpful was that? That was brilliant, actually. I'd done a few little writing courses locally, and that really lit the spark of actually feeling that I really enjoyed writing. I think in some ways I was kind of writing myself back into my own life. So I went to study an MA in travel and nature writing at Bath Spa and I suppose the most important thing like most things in life was the people I met I met a fabulous group of people all ages all backgrounds mostly much more experienced writers than me and we just had a lot of fun and I guess that was the most important thing we traveled together we supported each other

in our kind of steps in writing and and and that was wonderful and we still meet regularly. We did until lockdown. You won a writing competition in which you came up with the phrase juicy crones. What actually makes a juicy crone? I think it's probably someone who feels passionate about this phase of their life. It doesn't matter actually what they're doing or how they're being, but it's their choice. They are wholeheartedly doing or being whatever it is. They're pursuing goals and dreams that they never thought they'd be able to do um it's not it's not entirely about their relationship with others it's about their

relationship with self and i think actually this is a wonderful time for women to give birth to themselves um it's about acceptance of self it's about passion and that comes out in the way she lives her life. I think one of the things I found when I was thinking about this is I was really shocked to find that there are 12 million women over 50 in the country and you know we're not a minority, It's a huge number. OK, and we don't want to be called evergreen or silver? Is that...? I think I didn't want to be pigeonholed. I think that was the thing. You know, those groups are and can be wonderful, but I didn't want to feel that I was being fenced into something.

I wanted to feel what I was doing I was passionate about. So if you were giving advice to someone approaching retirement, what would be the most important thing you could pass on? I think the first thing I would suggest people think about is actually the notion of time. I found there was a real paradox in retirement you're kind of aware that there's a big exit sign looming and so you get into an anxious state about time running out and yet I've never had this amount of time available to me and I think you know that's to be embraced and enjoyed I think also think of it in some ways like having a second chance at being a teenager again you know try new things

imagine yourself at freshers fair you can enjoy your mistakes laugh at yourself meet new people make new friends try things you may or may not like that might change your mind go wild just have a time to enjoy whatever it is you want to do and you don't have to do them forever and don't accept kind of hand-me-down stories of what retirement should or shouldn't be. The other big thing is, I think, to try and get as strong and fit as you can. But equally, if you find yourself with aches and pains, don't necessarily think, oh, it's because I'm getting older. I think that's often a story we tell ourselves.

In fact, it might just be that you're getting fitter and that you've just walked up a mountain for the first time for 40 years. Well, Jan Courtney, thank you very much indeed. And none of us must think about the exit sign. Thank you, Jan. Now, we've all at some point lost something that really mattered to us. A ring maybe that belonged to grandma or some photos from your childhood. But what is it like when all your belongings are lost? Well, Eve wrote to tell us how she lost all her belongings when she was a student and wondered how other people had coped in similar circumstances.

We're joined by Pat Plumbridge, who's in Cornwall, Sue Hepworth, who's in the Peak District, and Eve, who's in Devon. Eve, how did you lose all your belongings? Hi, Jenny. Well, it was a few years ago, and my father was having some difficulties and ended up putting all our things into storage, and then, due to sort of financial constraints, was never able to get them back again.

So the sort of removal men came and everything was put up in boxes and everything was taken away and never seen again. And what effect did it have on you? Because you were quite young when it happened yeah um well I think mainly it was the sentimental things that were um the most sort of painful to lose because at the time I was sort of moving between houses and things anyway um hadn't sort of settled anywhere particularly yet so the financial side of getting on our feet in terms of getting a sofa and those sorts of things was not too bad but the things like photographs and the diaries and old books and presents from people. Those are the sorts of things that I really missed. Now, Pat, how did you come to lose all of your belongings?

Well, I live in Newlyn, and I live right on the seafront, and there was a pub next door to me, and I've always lived on this front, and at 20 to 1 on Sunday morning, somebody was shouting, get out, pack your houses on fire. And the whole of the pub was alight and it caught light to mine too.

So I just dashed down the stairs and the beams all fell on the bed that I'd come out of. And I just got out in time and I stood on the front of the harbour and watched my house burn to the ground. Now, you're now 95, Pat. and watched my house burn to the ground. Now, you're now 95, Pat.

Yes, I was 94 at the time. It was a year ago. What particularly pained you that had been lost from such a long life? Well, everything I lost. The only thing that I really saved was I've always written a diary. And luckily, it was in a leather trunk. And the leather trunk didn't burn and all my diaries were saved and so were all my clothes because they were locked into wardrobes and it was only smoke damage that I was lucky but everything else went furniture and everything and photographs and unfortunately I haven't any relatives, so I can't claim any back or anything from anyone. Sue, what happened in your case?

In my case, we were in the process of moving house and we couldn't find some. We'd sold our house, but we couldn't find anywhere to live. So we went into furnished rented accommodation and we put our things in storage. And after 18 months of still renting, we got a letter from the storage company saying that the warehouse had burned down and all our things had been lost along with the belongings of 90 other families. So what was lost that you'd really cared about? In those days it was 24 years ago there weren't any digital photographs and it was the photograph albums of my children when they were little, which was really painful. And also I saved the nicest of their toys and their books, hoping to use them with my grandchildren when they came along.

They were lost too. And things, family things, we didn't have a lot of expensive furniture. Most of it was secondhand, but it was hundreds, well, my husband says thousands of books and family things we'd inherited. You had, I think, kept a few very personal items with you. What didn't you lose that are still precious? A jewellery box, which came from my grandmother. I took with me a couple of photographs of the children, which were in frames, which we took, and my very favourite books. Yeah, that was it, really. Now, Pat, you had lived in your house that burned for, I think, 62 years and your mother had lived there too.

How did you cope with losing everything? Well, I was very, very lucky because I stood out at the front there, very traumatised, not knowing what to do or where to go. Because all my friends are elderly and and they're in one-bedroom flats. But I was just standing there, and a man just along the road, a neighbor, came along, who I only knew in passing, and he said, What's happened, Pat? I said, My house is burnt down. He said, What are you going to do?

I said, I don't really know. So he said, Well, I've got a house here. I'm getting ready, he said, for the summer season, and I'm on my own, and I've got three double bedrooms on suite. I'll come back, I've got a house here. I'm getting ready, he said, for the summer season. And I'm on my own and I've got three double bedrooms, they were en suite. I'll come back and I'll look after you. So he was called Crusoe and he took me along the road and he kept me there for five weeks and looked after me until I could find a flat in the village, which I did eventually. Why were the, I know the piano was saved. That's right, right my piano my mother's piano and and your clothes

were saved that's right yes and a few bits and pieces why were they so important to you well because i'd had them all my life when we we were in the pub for 30 years my mother and i next door as landladies and then when we moved it was right next door so we brought all the furniture from the pub into the house that we're in now that we were in so everything in there was sentimental value because we'd been in there for 30 years before and so then when we came into the into the house next door we bought everything from the pub into this house so it it had been all part of my life. How

did you really cope with it? Such a huge loss. Well, I always think life goes on and luckily, it was most interesting to me to hear about the music that the lady spoke before because I've always sang, I was a singer and I sang in the memory cafe

at our local hospital for five years. And when lockdown came, I stopped. But I've been singing for five years every week in the hospital for the memory cafe for the dementia people. And are you still singing? Well, unfortunately, we're not able to sing at the moment. The choir said we're not allowed to sing, really. Just by yourself and in the bathroom, maybe? Oh, yes, I still sing and at parties and things. And when we have a bit of a do with the piano

and some friends in. Eve, let me ask you, how are you coping now with all that loss that happened so long ago? Yes, fine. I think I probably take obsessive amounts of photographs of my children and make sure they're all backed up on computers and things like that, which obviously I couldn't do back then. But sometimes I do still think about all the things that were lost, and it is sad. I sort of put it to the back of my mind.

I don't want to seem selfish or materialistic or anything, thinking about those things. But it is a sort of grief, I suppose. Certain things really matter, don't they? How, Sue, briefly, have you managed to replace things well in terms of photographs some of my family gave me photographs of the of my children not very many um they weren't really they weren't really a comfort because they were sort of posed family groups not funny little photographs that you take yourself um but it was kind of them. And in terms of books, people gave us secondhand books. And we went through a lot of secondhand bookshops.

We haven't replaced the books. That's our heartache. One of the miraculous things was that we had three grandfather clocks. And one of the grandfather clocks we'd bought for my father-in-law when he became a grandmother, grandfather, grandfather sorry and the workings and the brass face my husband found in the ashes of the storage place and a local clockmaker soaked them for 18 months and managed to fix fix the working so the grandfather clock now works and we we bought a case for it on ebay i was talking to Sue Hepworth, Pat Plumbridge and Eve. We had lots of response to that item about loss. Anne said,

The most valuable things in our house are family photo albums of when my children were growing up. I've placed them where they're easily accessible if there was a fire or flood. They're actually scrapbooks which include drawings as well as photos. My husband died suddenly when our sons were 17 and 15 and I'm very glad we have this record of our lives before he died. I didn't continue this after his death though.

Anna Crisp said, Just wanted to say how amazing your interviewee Pat from Newlyn was. Obviously the item was sad and the other contributors were clearly still suffering from their losses and I felt very sorry for them. But Pat's positivity and love for life just shone through despite her extraordinary loss. What a wonderful thing to hear. And then on retirement, Bridget Jensen emailed, I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed Jan Courtney's take on retirement. What a lovely creative way she has with words and so very far from the dead hand of serious advice we usually hear.

Breath of fresh air, thank you. Helen emailed, when my mother was still alive. She lived on her own and in her 90s put a small plaque on the outside of her front door. It read, I am not a senior citizen, I am a recycled teenager. She lived up to that and didn't use the word retired. She said that should never happen if you're alive. And then on the question of choirs, John William Palmer said on Twitter, great to hear the choir singing again.

We're a six-voice a cappella folk group called Boom Dasher, and we started singing again, socially distanced in a bandstand in a public park. Very therapeutic, and quite a bandstand in a public park. Very therapeutic. And quite a few people stopped to listen to. Thank you for all your contributions. We always love to hear from you. All you have to do is send an email or a tweet.

Now do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's four o'clock on Saturday afternoon. See you then. Bye-bye. Are you still there? Good. There's someone I want you to meet. Their name is Sean, they're 16, and they're in trouble.

Follow Sean's journey by subscribing to Power Up on BBC Sense. The world is dying. It's time to take action. Power Up. Power Up. Power time to take action. Power up. Power up. Power up. Power up. Power up.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.