Woman's Hour - Choreographer Jasmin Vardimon, Behind the Rage with Deeyah Khan, Met Police report, Motorcycling

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

Jasmin Vardimon is one of the UK’s leading choreographers and was awarded an MBE for services to dance in the late Queen’s final birthday honours list in June. This month Jasmin is bringing ALiCE - a new interpretation of Lewis Carroll’s classic Alice in Wonderland - to the Sadler’s Wells. She is also opening a purpose-built dance centre in Kent where the Jasmin Vardimon Company will be based. She joins Jessica to talk about her work.Deeyah Khan is an Emmy, Bafta and Peabody winning filmmaker. Deeyah’s films have previously covered topics such as abortion in America, white supremacy, and why people become terrorists. Her latest film looks at domestic violence in the United States, hearing from voices rarely heard on the topic, the men who perpetrate violence towards their partners. Deeyah joins Jessica.Baroness Casey's interim report into the Metropolitan Police's disciplinary procedures has found that hundreds of Met police officers have been getting away with misconduct and even breaking the law. The new Met Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley has today called for officers to be sacked, after the report found that their internal disciplinary system is racist and misogynist, and allegations of sexual misconduct or discrimination are less likely to result in a case to answer than other claims. It also found that repeat misconduct offenders have remained in post, with just 13 out of 1,809 officers with more than one case against them being sacked since 2013. Jessica speaks to Shabnam Chaudri, formerly a Detective Superintendent with the Metropolitan Police.Membership of the Women's International Motorcycle Association has increased by 50% in the last two years. And the world’s largest all-female biker meet took place in Leicestershire this summer, with over 1,500 women in attendance. But why is the number of female motorcyclists accelerating? Jessica talks to Karina Artun AKA Bike Like a Mum on Instagram, who started learning to ride in lockdown, and Sheonagh Ravensdale, Communications Director of the British Motorcyclists Federation.Women are selling sex to cope with the cost of living crisis, according to the English Collective of Prostitutes who have seen call levels to their helpline rise by a third in the last few months. Many women are turning to sex work for the first time, while others are returning, having left it behind. Pregnant Then Screwed have also been contacted by women in a similar position. Jessica speaks to a sex worker called Evie and Niki Adams of the English Collective of Prostitutes, a network of sex workers and supporters campaigning for the decriminalisation of prostitution.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Danny Robbins, host of the spooky podcast Uncanny and the Battersea Poltergeist. Just before you settle down for your usual podcast, maybe you're out walking or maybe you're at home. But are you alone? Are you sure? Because this is a warning. Something wicked this way comes. My brand new podcast series, The Witch Farm, mixes documentary and drama

to investigate a real-life paranormal cold case. Listen out for The Witch Farm, the true story of Britain's most haunted house. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, we've spoken many times before about the cost of living crisis. Well, now one group has told us that an increasing number of women are turning to sex work to help pay the bills. We'll be talking about that

a little bit later this morning. Also, we'll be hearing from a rarely heard voice when it comes to domestic violence and abuse, and that is the male perpetrator. Emmy award-winning filmmaker Dia Khan will be joining us to discuss a new documentary that focuses on men and why they are violent and how they can be helped to stop. Joining us too will be Yasmin Vardaman, one of the UK's leading choreographers. Her new adaptation of Lewis Carroll's classic Alice in Wonderland will be performed in London this month. We'll be talking about that, her life and her evolution as a performer from Israel all the way through to moving to the UK. As always, I'd like for you to get in touch with us. Today, we're asking if you have a hobby that surprises people.

I'll be speaking to one woman who jumped on a motorbike last year and hasn't looked back. In fact, the number of women interested in motorbiking has gone up significantly in the past two years. Traditionally seen as a male-dominated pastime, but women often get raised eyebrows when they turn up in their levers. So is there anything that you do for fun that people are maybe a little bit sceptical about when you tell them, I want to hear about all the weird and wonderful ways that you pass the time? You can WhatsApp us on 037001004444. Data charges may apply, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. You can also text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. We're at BBC Women's Hour

on social media. And as always, you can email us through our website. But first this morning, as you've heard in the news, a new report into the Metropolitan Police's disciplinary procedures has found that hundreds of police officers have been getting away with misconduct and even breaking the law. The new Met Commissioner has today called for officers to be sacked after the report found that their internal disciplinary system is racist and misogynist and allegations of sexual misconduct or discrimination are less likely to result in a case to answer than other claims. It also found that repeat misconduct offenders have remained in post,

with just 13 out of 1,809 officers with more than one case against them being sacked since 2013. On the Today programme earlier this morning, the author of the report, Baroness Louise Casey, spoke to Martha Carney. Police officers hold very, very significant powers. On their word, they're able to stop us, search us, intimately search us, put us in a police cell for 24 hours and cuff us. So, you know, we are talking about people that we need to have very, very high standards of professional conduct and behaviour. And I think the misconduct system is not geared towards tackling those sorts of professional standards. Because it looks at one allegation at a time

rather than looking at a pattern of behaviour. Is that one of the issues? Yes, they're treating everything like it's the criminal justice system. In order to get to the stage of gross misconduct in the Metropolitan Police, you have to be sort of in the middle of a criminal case investigation, and at which point then they treat it and they don't have to, as every single allegation is treated individually. Now, in their normal job, when they're out actually trying to catch sexual predators, they look for patterns, they find patterns, and they arrest people on those patterns. So I think what I'm saying is we need a significant reform of the system that addresses the racial bias in it.

There is racism in the system. There is misogyny in the system. But we have to be more effective in addition. Well, listening to that with me was Shabnam Chowdhury, a former detective superintendent with the Metropolitan Police. Good morning to you, Shabnam. What did you make of the findings? Oh, very, very upsetting. Not surprising, but equally shocking. Very, very sad to read that in 1999, when the Metropolitan Police was labelled institutionally racist by the Macpherson inquiry, here we are in 2022 and Baroness Casey is effectively saying exactly the same thing. Systemic bias equals institutional racism. I'm really sad that things haven't changed

and they haven't moved on at all, really. Yeah, it does seem that some of these findings perhaps aren't new and were known about the Met Police in previous years, as you did mention there at the Macpherson report. In this report, though, I just want to get into the detail with you, Shabnam, because it is quite damning. And, you know, the commissioner, the new commissioner of the Met Police has said so himself. So the report identified eight key issues. And one of those issues was the Met takes too long to resolve misconduct cases, 400 days, and 20% take more than two years. What did you make of that in particular? Yeah, not surprised at all, because what happens is that the professional

standards units, they may have a significant number of investigations. Some of these jobs just sit by the wayside for months and months on end. Those officers, the victims, the perpetrators, or those that have been complained against, sit there waiting for one, two, three years sometimes, where at the end of it, there's no case to answer. And actually what that happens is it totally destroys the confidence of the

complainant, it totally destroys the confidence of the person who's been complained against and what it also does it just allows others to continue to behave in that way. Those perpetrators, for example the one that had 11 allegations, we're not talking about complaints in terms of just inappropriate behaviours, we're talking about criminal behaviour We're not talking about complaints in terms of just inappropriate behaviours. We're talking about criminal behaviour. We're talking about fraud cases. We're talking about sexual harassment. We're talking about all forms of criminal allegations, sexual assault.

This officer walked through that process with no case to answer and the outcome was reflective practice. Now, how does that make the victim feel? How does that make members of the public feel who want to come forward and want to report to police while this individual, a criminal, is sat amongst police officers? It's absolutely disgraceful. Yes, that was one of the major findings of the reports.

Up to 60% of misconduct allegations made by Met officers against their colleagues resulted in no case to answer. Now, Louise Casey also found that there was a racial disparity within the Met police. Black officers and staff are 81% more likely than white officers to have misconduct allegations brought against them and are more likely to have the claim upheld. Does that surprise you? Not in the slightest. I was a victim. I was a whistleblower myself back in the late 90s,

exactly the same year that the Met was labelled institutionally racist. As a whistleblower, you're not supported. You're vilified, you're victimised, senior officers will close ranks against you, they bury their heads in the sand, they refuse to believe what you're telling them. This comes as absolutely no surprise. I'll tell you what sickens me even more. 126% of black officers who are new to the organisation, are probationers, are then served with what you call Regulation 13 notice. 123% of those are also Asian and 50% are mixed officers. So basically those officers that come into the organisation, that are new, that aspire to become police officers,

that want to represent their communities, are then being subjected to performance and actually being told that they don't want them in the organisation by frontline managers because the organisation, the leadership is so incredibly weak that those officers are not supported.

That really saddens me that those officers who want to stay in the organisation then leave and go and take another job. And I guarantee you there won't have been any exit interviews to find out why they actually left. Louise Casey herself did comment on the fact that a lot of people

will lose confidence in the process and therefore won't complain in the first instance anyway. What have you been hearing from your former colleagues this morning about this report that are still serving as police officers? Well, look, in my experience, I remember what happened when the Met Faison report was published. There was a huge backlash against black and Asian officers. And I think officers are really scared right now

because they feel that now that this has come out in the open, that they are going to be vilified, they're going to be targeted, there's going to be isolation against them. I've had officers call me, a couple of officers this morning, crying their eyes out. Honestly, I will not lie to you, last night, sorry, I sobbed because I felt like I'd been catapulted back to 1999 and I didn't cry for what I went through, I cried because I see what these officers are having to endure right now. I would also like to add that I know that there are thousands of good officers in the Metropolitan Police. And there are many that have tried to support those black and Asian officers and the female officers who have been subjected to misogyny.

But then it's those leaders, those managers who refuse to support even those that are trying to back those that are making a complaint. That is just not acceptable. So Mark Rowley mentioned this morning on radio that he doesn't recall these type of issues when he was in policing. I find that incredulous that he did not know of any of this type of behaviour or that it existed, particularly within the counterterrorism department. That to me is shameful. Yes, of course, Mark Rowley isn't here to defend himself, but he was on the Today programme earlier this morning.

Let's hear what he's had to say about the report. It's appalling, isn't it? I've put out today some clearer standards as a start of that. And one of the things I've said in that is, if you're a leader, anything that you don't act on you're as guilty as the offender that that you walk by you endorse I'm deadly serious about this we're going to raise our game we're going to be more ruthless and we're going to root these people out and over a longer term we're going to look at ruthless and we're going to root these people out. And over a longer term, we're going to look at leadership development and training

and all the things we need to do to build an organisation where the culture moves in the right direction. That was Sir Mark Rowley there, the Met Police Commissioner, speaking on the Today programme earlier this morning. He says he's dead serious about making change, Shabnam. What do you think? Look, I have to reserve my judgment, but by the same time, I actually want to believe what he says. I have to give him credit because already in the short time he's been within the organisations, he's already increased the representation within his professional standards unit, which means that that will allow officers to be dealt with far more robustly, more quickly. He's got new, fresh blood going in there.

So there will be officers who will be very keen to work really hard and be committed and dedicated. On top of that, he's also created a unit, which is the domestic violence unit, which investigates police officers and the victims within the police, whether they're police officers, police staff, or members of the public that complain about police officers to ensure that they are also being robustly dealt with he has talked a lot it's now start to see it we need to see some real action and i i give him credit because actually in this early stages he has started to turn things around but he's got to keep that momentum going because like anything these things get brushed under the carpet they get forgotten they tick box, they tick the diversity box

and then they move on and that cannot happen. One of the striking things is that these findings aren't new. Institutional racism was found by Macpherson back in 1999. This report again has found racism. For people listening to this, how put off might they be from joining this profession, particularly women? I really don't want them to be put off. I've got nephews in the police service. I've got one that's just recently joined. I've got another one who's applied to be a PCDA.

They're basically coming in on the degree entry. I think it's really important that, yes, take it on board. Know that you're going to have a bit of a rough ride when you come into the organization but if sir mark gets it's right then those are wishing to join i would wholly wholeheartedly encourage them to join because at the heart of every bit of this is the public are the victims of crime are the witnesses that need to come forward that need to be protected and need to feel safe that when they come in and report domestic violence, knife crime, any kind of incident that affects them, that affects the local communities, that they feel reassured that

there is a police service that is representative of the communities that London serves. But at this moment, does the Met Police offer that safe space? Does the Met Police offer that reassurance to women in particular? At the moment, I have to be honest and say that when you read the Casey report, it doesn't offer that safe space for whistleblowers. It's got to turn that around very, very quickly. I'm sure Sir Mark is doing his work. I've not heard anything from police officers serving within the organisation, and I haven't spoken to thousands, but I've spoken enough to enough to tell me that right now they don't feel safe. That is from the very early career joiners,

those that have joined the Metropolitan Police, to those that have been in service for, you know, coming up to their 30 years they have got to provide safe spaces and that is one of the things that has got to be attractive to those that come in and join the police service to know that if they are going to be whistleblowers if they are going to challenge and if they're going to have to have the courage because they do have courage to speak out then they've got to know that they are being supported by leaders, not weak managers that the organisation currently employs. Shabnam Chowdhury, former detective superintendent with the Metropolitan Police. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour this morning.

Thank you. Yasmin Vardaman is one of the UK's leading choreographers and was awarded an MBE for services to dance in the late Queen's final birthday honours list in June. This month, Yasmin is bringing Alice, a new interpretation of Lewis Carroll's classic Alice in Wonderland, to the Sadler's Wells Theatre in London. She's also opening a purpose-built dance centre in Kent, where the Yasmin's father and company will be based. And she joins me this morning. Very good to speak to you, Yasmin. Good morning. Congratulations on your MBE. Alice in Wonderland, something that was written almost 160 years ago

now, has been reimagined so many times in the past but tell us about your particular production and your spin on it. Okay so over the, in my work, mainly observe and got inspired by current events, our way of living, but also with sort of reflection on our history and our culture. So as you say, Alice's adventure in Wonderland have been part of our culture and inspired many creations and interpretations in the last 150 or 60 years. And I always believe that stories that are retold over a generation do so because they carry some social significance in them. So creating my interpretation of this classic tale, I was looking for what is it for me that is so significant

for it to be retold. I see Alice in transition from childhood to womanhood. Her body is changing. She's questioning her identity and her place in the world. The place, the world that she is, and the place in her world that she's entering to. So I feel my interpretation has been mainly inspired by my personal current perspective and experience of being a mother of a teenage girl going through the confusing period of adolescence.

But during the research period, I've explored Alice from various angles. And I find my interpretation mainly focused on Alice as a teenage girl going through those changes we all go through during adolescence and the effect this has on her identity and the relationship and understanding of the world around her. But also reflected in parallel on the changes we women later on are going through in menopause through the character of the Red Queen. And in fact, I feel that most of the characters in the story are all going through some transformational change or even metamorphosis. The caterpillar who is during the story become a butterfly, constantly questioning Alice, who are you? We ask her various times while transforming himself, which I feel is a kind of a reflection on one's own identity as we progress through life.

So you've mentioned quite a few themes there about change and growth and transformation. So how did you visually try and create that on stage? Okay, so we have Alice is performed on a massive revolving stage, which is like a massive clock representing time, which is again, another big subject in the book and in my interpretation. And on the top of that revolve, there is a large five meter high book, which is like a real life pop up book, which each page represent a chapter in the story and in Ali's journey. And I've collaborated with a very talented projection designer, Andrew Croft, who created a very clever integration of magical words that appear on and transform the whole scenery. It's really hard to describe visual performance, but the cast, the group of performers

are multi-talented dancers from various backgrounds and bring their own unique skill and talent and ability to the story. Yeah, it's hard to describe, but let's just try and give the listeners an idea because you're very much known for physical theatre. And in Alice, the dancers, the performance is very intense. It's very physical. It's almost acrobatic. They use every part of their body. What were you trying to communicate? So dance is my language. It's my mother tongue. It's a language I both feel very fluent in many ways, but also misunderstood.

So but I feel like it has this wonderful ability to communicate in a physical, but also visual and intellectual and emotional level, sometimes through the subconscious, so meanings are slowly filtering. I'm retelling a story in a different way. I'm interested in putting a light on things and exposing realities in different ways. The story of Alice is retold for our current time and with a different perspective of a woman going through or a child going through adolescence. And what does it mean to her? She's questioning the world around her. She sees herself differently and she's seen differently.

She's experiencing new realities. I see Alice as a traveler in a new world, but also as a young explorer, almost facing the subject or the problems of the past, almost like our children. And she has to find her own reality and her own way to, to deal with it. Now you came to London in the nineties from Israel. So how different were those two dance scenes in each country? The dance scenes are very different in Israel.

Actually, a lot of it is almost against retelling story. And I think, but in the UK, I mean, it's so diverse and rich. And I think because there are so many influences and so many different words. And I feel, I don't know, there is a room for different, almost different art from within the dance. But myself, I grew up in a kibbutz, which was a community based on a mix of socialism and Marxism philosophies. And although it was like a bubble in many aspects, in terms of cultural influences,

it was very diverse and exposed to what influences. My kibbutz members were from all across the globes, from Eastern Europe where my parents came, my grandparents came, but South America and Yemen and Iraq and Russia. And we had a lot of volunteers from, mainly from Europe, who brought with them music and fashion and and we had a lot of volunteers from mainly from Europe who brought with them music and fashion and cultural influence when I grew up in the 70s and 80s and when I grew through those kind of adolescence years and because of that I felt like we were exposed to a lot of a lot of diverse kind of ideas and morals and way of living and way

of behavior and a lot of stories as well. And on top of that, my parents exposed me to other things. My father was an executive director of a venue in Tel Aviv called Savta, which was a political left-wing production venue that belonged to the Kibbutz movement. And at the time, it was focusing on producing collaboration between Palestinian, Israeli Arabs, and Jews with the aim to build positive bridges. So I was very much exposed to political theater and telling stories of others

and building awareness of difficulties and problems. And I think that's what influenced me the most, creating my art with observing our contemporary society and reflecting on our culture and history. Wow. I'm sure many people after listening to you, Yasmin, will be eager to watch your production. Alice will be performed at the Sadler's Wells Theatre in London on the 28th and 29th of October. Yasmin Vardaman, thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour this morning. Now, as is always right at the beginning of the programme, I asked you to get involved and let us know about any of the topics we're talking about.

And someone has got in touch in regards to the Louise Casey report, which came out today about the Metropolitan Police. This person who has remained anonymous has said, I was raped when I was 17. I later became a police officer in a county force just under two years later. Whilst at work, I came across my rapist, a detective sergeant. Many police officers are honest and amazing people, but mostly it's all true. I tried to engage with all forces after the Me Too campaign. I am now a mental health professional and wanted to tell them what is happening. All but one force refused to speak with me. The issue is deep and riddled with poison. Thank you to that person for courageously getting in touch with us and sharing their story.

I also asked about your hobbies and many, many people have got in touch. We'll get to some of those in a moment. Just to give you a flavour, someone is talking here about roller derby that they've started, cycling. Someone says, I wouldn't call it a hobby exactly, but I love spiders. We'll come to your messages a bit later in the programme. Now, my next guest is the Emmy BAFTATA and Peabody award-winning filmmaker, Dia Khan. Dia has explored topics such as abortion in America, white supremacy and why people become terrorists.

Her latest film looks at domestic violence in America, featuring voices rarely heard on this topic, the men who are violent towards their partners. The film airs tonight on ITV and I'm'm pleased to say Diakon joins me now. Good morning to you, Di. I know it's very early over there in America. So thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure. Good morning.

Now, you've covered many hard hitting issues, as I mentioned there. So why domestic violence in this case? I've been involved in women's rights activism for very many years. And my focus, along with many of my colleagues' focus, has always been actually some of the themes you've just touched on, which is how do we get the criminal justice system to respond properly to women and children trying to escape domestic violence? How do we ensure that there is enough support and refuges for women? How do we ensure that there are enough resources to provide the support that women need when they're trying to leave violence and abuse in the home? But what's been, what sort of started frustrating me a lot over the last few years, and especially I think COVID is what really brought this home, seeing the rise in domestic violence, you know,

during COVID, and then also starting to rethink some of the public conversation that we often have around domestic violence, where we have a tendency to, I think, blame women for being victims, where the questions that have often come up are, why is she with him? Why won't she leave him? Why does she keep going back to him? Why won't she press charges against him? And keep going back to him? Why won't she press charges against him? And I think all of those are actually the wrong questions. And I think the actual

question that we need to ask is, why does he do it? And why doesn't he stop? And what can we as a society do to prevent this from happening in the first place? I mean, there's only so many shelters we can build. There are only so many women we can hide. So really, I wanted to look at and turn the camera towards the actual source of the problem, which is the violent behavior and the perpetrator himself, in order to see if we can reframe and also put the responsibility and accountability where it actually belongs,

which is with the person who actually does this, which I think is missing from our public discourse. It's almost as if we have this sort of low expectations of men, that this is somehow a given that, you know, men will always be violent. And that's just, you know, something that we should put up with. And that's just not true, you know? So that was the reason, the reason for trying to delve into this aspect of it. Yeah. And you mentioned some key points there that we will definitely dive into. But first, let's hear a section of the programme so our listeners can get a feel of the interviews that you conducted. And just a warning, what we're about to hear is quite a distressing description of violence.

Here it is. I'd push her down. I'd hold her down. I picked her up and I choked her so severely. She sawed her clothes and was out like a sleep, sleep. Why choking? A lot of the men I've spoken to said that they would choke women. She's very good with words. So I would go straight to the source of the problem and cut it off. I was addicted to that dominance. I know without a doubt that it's not okay to harm a female for any reason,

especially out of anger. Even then you knew that? Even then I knew that. So you knew you were doing the wrong thing? Absolutely. So that was one of the male perpetrators you spoke to, Dia, called Marshall. What did you learn from speaking to him? What I learned from speaking to him and many of the men is that it was a combination of things. The men who engage in violence have

very often either been subjected to violence themselves in their very early lives, or have witnessed it happen towards their mother, for example, and have had no way to process that or be protected from that, and truly not been able to develop an emotional capacity to deal with emotional difficulties, to deal with difficult feelings, to deal with vulnerable feelings, to deal with their own rage and their anger in a healthy way. And they truly have just paid it forward when they have felt triggered emotionally in their own lives. I remember, as you said earlier, I've dealt with topics of male violence through many of my films and many of my films or most of my films have dealt with public violence. So looking at this

private violence, what was really interesting for me is I've never been afraid of any of the men that I've filmed, whether they're jihadis, whether they're white supremacists, armed militias or convicted terrorists who blow up abortion clinics. And how did it feel sitting across from these particular men? This was different. This was, I haven't personally experienced domestic violence, but why this was different for me is the night before I was going to interview one of these guys, suddenly I started feeling nervous and started feeling worried because I started thinking most of the men that I filmed are able to commit the violence that they commit because they know nothing about the person that they're committing the violence against. They've managed

to dehumanize that person to such an extent based on the fact that there is no knowledge of the other person. These guys have managed to dehumanize the women that they sleep with, that they hug, that they have kids with very often. So this is a different category of a guy is in my mind what I was thinking. And I was thinking, if they can do this to her, you know, who am I? Who are any of us? But what was interesting for me to hear from Marshall and from many of the other guys is their trigger in a way isn't the fact that someone is a woman. The trigger is intimacy. So the, and the vulnerability that comes with intimacy and relationships. So this woman knows his weaknesses,

if we want to call it that. This woman is aware of and witnesses his worst qualities in a way. So for him to try and keep the power and the control and his sense of self in that relationship, it comes down to dominance. Marshall in the film also says, because I asked him, why do you do it? And he says, because I can. And that to me is so chilling. And it's so, so truthful.

And so it's that. It's they get what they want. Through violence and through brutalizing women, they get everything. So why would they stop? Yeah, because they can. I remember that line quite vividly from the documentary and also one of the perpetrators saying that it was a fear of abandonment that led them to becoming violent as well. Let's listen to another clip, because I know that you wanted to understand why men became violent and their partners. One of the men that you spoke to was Amir, and he put it very simply as to why he did what he did. I think it's a sense of having some kind of power. You have no power anywhere else in your life.

And then I guess when opportunity presents that you can display a little bit of power. And I guess that's what I did. And it went too far, you know. But it is rough to feel like you have no control. You have no say-so over your life whatsoever. Other than with her. Other than with her. That's terrible to say, you know.

Being taught a man is supposed to hide his emotions, not cry. If you cry or show any emotions, then you're feminine, you know. It's kind of sad to look at it right now. But I guess that was the only comfortable way I had to express myself. So what help, dear, is being offered to these men when they go to these perpetrator programs? Well, first of all, most of them are court mandated to go to these perpetrator programs. Very few of them do self-refer, but some do. The help that they're given in the programs that I filmed with was to try and have them understand what they've done, why they've done it,

have them connect with their own experiences of violence when they have had to sort of disconnect and divorce themselves from their own experiences to be able to then do that to somebody else to explore when it is that their empathy has been cut off for themselves and also for other people and what's what was interesting for me is how the men were able eventually it seems many of them were very hostile I can see in the early part of the process many of them think that they don't belong there they they're not as bad as the other guys, so they don't really need to be part of what helps to unlock their own experiences to the point where then they can also take responsibility for what they've actually done. But very many of them initially, you know, completely downplay and diminish what they've done. And very many of them will blame the woman, you know, if she wouldn't have done that, I wouldn't have done

this. It's her, it's not me. But eventually these these therapists and social workers and counsellors are able to help them get to a point where they can accept responsibility. And once they do that and once they face who they actually are and what they've done and cause for somebody, that's where the possibility for change happens for some, you know, not for everybody. You know, and, you know, one of my hopes in making this documentary, other than trying to get to the source of this is also, you know, women like myself, and you can, you know, talk to a blue in the face about these issues. You know, I've been to endless conferences about violence against women, and spoken at them and seen maybe if I'm lucky, a handful of guys in the audience. The reality is, like Dr. Jackson Cat says in the film, is that this is not a women's issue. This is a men's issue. And what I'm hoping is that maybe some of the viewers who might be looking at this, maybe some of the guys who are right now engaging in this kind of violence at

home, maybe they'll listen to these guys. They're not going to listen to us. Maybe these guys and their experiences and their openness can reach other men in realizing that this is not carved in stone. You know, this can change. This is a choice. Your trauma, your childhood experiences aside, this is a choice. And you can choose not to. And he can choose to develop your sense of self and your sense of masculinity and manhood in your place Wales rose by 6% in a year. That's according to the latest figures from March 2021 from the Office for National Statistics. That's more than 800,000 victims. How well could perpetrator programs work over here in the UK? So there are some extraordinary programs in the UK. And I actually spoke with several of them before I went to America. One of the challenges is that, you know, domestic violence is, you know,

has never been a huge priority, to be honest, in our society. And we see that in the report that you were referencing earlier. You know, misogyny is not something that exists in these homes. It's something that exists on a continuum throughout our society, even within the police. So I think resources when it comes to dealing with domestic violence have always been, you know, there's been scraps for women's organizations and refuges and groups to have to fight for. So, you know, to also try and carve out the resources to help support the men out of this is hard, you know. It's, you know, it's not like it's, if it was terrorism, you know, the resources are there, but when it comes to terrorism against women, the resources aren't there. So what we

really need is we need to provide more support and resources to the people doing this work, both on the end of the spectrum of supporting women and children getting away from this violence, but also for the men to stop their behaviour, to stop the violence. So we need more programmes and more resources, but they do exist. There are some very, very good programmes actually in the UK. So yeah, it's more a matter of the competing interest in resources that we need to really look at. Diakar, thank you very much. Your documentary Behind the Rage is on ITV tonight and it airs at quarter to 11 this evening. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour.

Thank you for having me. Now, the number of women cyclists and motorcyclists on our roads is accelerating. That's according to the Women's International Motorcycle Association, who say their membership has grown by 50% in the last two years. What's more, the world record for the largest gathering of female bikers was broken in Leicestershire earlier this year, with more than 1,500 women in attendance. I'm joined now by Shiona Ravensdale, Communications Director of the British Motorcyclists Federation and former President of the Women's International Motorcycle Association,

and also Karina Arten, who took up biking in lockdown and is working towards her full licence. You might have also seen her on Instagram as bikelikeamum. Welcome to the programme, Shiona and Karina. Karina, I'll come to you first. What made you first want to get on a motorbike? It's something that I've always thought I was going to do one day. And I just kept putting it off and putting it off. I come from a family of motorcyclists. My dad rode, my granddad rode. I was always on the back of them um did some really long journeys as well um going to motorbike rallies and things like that so I love the

community around it as well and yeah just always thought I would do it one day and kept putting it off and yeah I think lockdown taught a lot of us to that life's too short and we need to just grasp those opportunities and go for it I've never been on a motorbike what does it feel like it's i mean any bike will tell you it's ultimately freedom there's just you know you're on your own and it feels powerful it feels free it feels liberating um and obviously for a woman especially because it's seen as something traditional traditionally that men did only um that it does feel liberating to yeah get on a big bike and make some noise uh now shiona i can see you there smiling along as karina was explaining how free she feels on the open road and membership of women motorcyclists is up 50 what is that down to i think there's a

huge amount of publicity now um about there's a lot of interest about women riding bikes um in every every every aspect and there's so much i mean for instance when you know when when i started there was absolutely zero interest and And women have been riding around the world for 60 years. And people like Mary Sevier, for example, who we've only just discovered, there was absolutely zero interest when she got back in the early 70s from riding. But now there's this tremendous amount of interest. And there's loads of activities as well so um you know there's there's women instructors at all levels uh from cbt to advance there's women

um let women led off-road courses maria costello runs racetrack days for women and there's women led uh adventure tours all over the world none of which was this available 50 years ago when I started so it's just brilliant most of it's actually happened in the last decade yeah fantastic um lots of people have got in touch about their hobbies that they're doing um that help them pass the time someone has said my hobby is puzzling take some by surprise when a 20 year old's ideal Friday night is spent with a word search and riddles. Sounds like a fun night

into me, to be honest. Someone else has said, I collect and repair fountain pens. When at primary school, I won one in a raffle. They each have their own character

and I love helping something to, I love helping something to work again and it's being neglected in a drawer for years. Someone else has said, I have just started showing and breeding

Sheltie guinea pigs. Karina, how much is this about building a community space for yourself as well? A lot of it. Yeah, it's one of the biggest driving factors for me, I suppose. And obviously that's difficult because being a minority,

a lot of the people that I've met so far online um well a lot of them are men um but also the women that I'm finding are you know either later on in life or you know a lot younger and coming into it I've got two young children so it's it is difficult to find people who you know are at the same stage of life as me it's kind of unusual there's a lot of judgment on the fact that I've got two young children I think it's uh yeah so I'm really that's one of the reasons I took to Instagram I suppose and made my account open so that I could reach out to other people and yeah find people to go biking with. I'm glad you were able to find your community because Julia has whatsapped us to say I wouldn't call it a hobby exactly but I love spiders. For years I wondered whether there was an equivalent of a bird identification book for spiders. Finally my son found one, gave it to

me as a birthday present. It's fascinating, at least I think so, but I haven't found anyone else, male or female, who shares my interest. What kind of reaction do you get from people, Karina, when you turn up with your motorbike in your leathers? Is there a lot of discrimination? I don't think there's... It's not discrimination as such, although I have had men say to me, basically insinuating that I can't possibly be as passionate as they

are because you know they've grown up in in Greece and have been doing it since they were a child so you know I've just come come into it and I can't possibly you know love it as much as them sort of thing so people are very protective of their hobby um for sure I think that's the same can be said for lots of different hobbies I suppose people are really passionate about it and and therefore just become a bit protective about it I suppose but yeah generally speaking um the biking community is second to none for being welcoming and supportive and there's so many people who just want to lift you up and and help you along the way.

So I've got lots of tips and advice, yeah. Oh, that's brilliant. That's really helpful, isn't it? Shiona, you've been riding a motorbike for 50 years this year. Have you seen a difference in how women are treated in that time? Oh, completely, yes, definitely. I mean, it's amazing. I mean, most motorcycle clubs now are very welcoming to women. But when I first started, the only motorcycle club for women was Wimmer. Now there are, we've got three in the BMF.

There's Curvy Riders, which has had over a thousand members around the country. Lots of UK activities, Evolution up in scotland and the northeast and of course there's wimmer and we we hold an international rally every year um uh in a different country and so so that's absolutely perfect for for women who want to travel so there's there's so much more scope for for women to get involved in in uh in everything than than there was there was then. So yeah, it makes a huge, huge difference. And especially the last time, Karina,

you know, you've come in at just the right time. It's absolutely fantastic that there's so much support. And the social media side of things is absolutely critical now. There's a page called uh motorbike women and that's got over 12 000 members most of them are in the uk and it's absolutely extraordinary so so for instance you know if you post a picture of yourself and your bike and your and your pass um you've just passed your test there'll be loads and loads of people who say well done well done

well done and also you know if you've just failed and you're feeling utterly miserable, there'll be a stack of women who will come on and say, just go for it again, calm, take a breath and carry on and you'll be fine. So the support network is colossal now, which is completely different from when I was young. That's very positive. Jen in Cornwall has WhatsApped us to say,

I started to ride in 1982. I couldn't get helmets and clothes to fit. Things have come a long way. My motorbike was my only transport for 25 years. Karina, just finally, what would you say to anyone hearing this, considering motorcycling, but they're not quite sure where to start? Obviously, reach out to your local training centre. They'll have loads of advice. There is quite a few steps to go through to get your motorbike licence.

So even if you already ride a car, you've still got to pass another theory test. You need to do a CBT first first which is your compulsory basic training so that will get you out and and riding about and so that's you know take advantage of that time on a on a smaller engine and you can get out with learner plates on get as much experience as you can and then obviously find the right instructor for you for for you to help you get you through your mod one and mod two which is the two parts to complete your full license brilliant there's good advice for our listeners there uh shiona and karina thank you for coming on to woman's hour and still people continue to get in touch with us about the hobbies they doing naomi says i have a strange hobby in the last five years i've ridden over 150 roller coasters

around europe with my son who has a passion for them. I'm 58 and discovered I loved them despite having never rode one before five years ago. Wow, that's incredible. Courageous, I would say. Cassie says, I fire and drive my miniature steam locomotives and in brackets, in capital letters, she's put not toys and drive my electric locomotive at two different railways in Bedfordshire. I've been doing this since I was 15 years old. We've also had other messages come in from our listeners about the other topics we've been talking about. One of those was male perpetrators who perpetrate violence against their partners. Someone has said, I used to work as a counsellor in a women's refuge 20 years ago.

Of course, men's abusive behaviour is about power and control. I was involved in training courses. What is needed is for resources to be provided for men who abuse. This is key, has been known for decades, but is also under resource. And that's exactly what filmmaker Dia Khan was saying to us, as she mentioned ahead of a documentary airing on ITV later tonight. Thank you to everyone for getting in touch. You can continue to get a hold of us at social media, at BBC Women's Hour. You can also text us

and you can also WhatsApp us as well. And there's always email if you want to get in touch via our website. Now, women are selling sex to cope with the cost of living crisis. That's according to the English Collective of Prostitutes, who have seen call levels to their helpline rise by a third in the last few months. Many women are turning to sex work for the first time, but some others are returning. The range of work varies from speaking on adult phone lines and webcam performing

to escort services and prostitution. The charity Pregnant Then Screwed has also seen a rise in women taking up this kind of work. I'll be speaking to the English Collective of Prostitutes shortly, but first, let's bring in Evie, who is a sex worker. Good morning, Evie. Hi, good morning. Great to hear from you. Now, I understand you've been doing sex work for a number of years, but you've noticed more women taking up this kind of work in recent months. What can you tell us about that?

Yeah, absolutely. So when I started like about three, four years ago, there was definitely a smaller number of people going onto websites like OnlyFans, which seems to be the most popular one at the moment for online content and for doing online sex work. And in the past year, the numbers have definitely shot up. A lot of them, I have noticed as well, a lot of my friends who are parents, who are mothers,

have also now turned to websites websites like only fans um because they are worried about the cost of living crisis and these are people that have never done it before now turning when you say your friends have never had an interest in sex work or anything surrounding sex work and sadly there are lots of women at the moment who are turning to becoming online content creators because they do feel like this is the only way that they can get extra money for things like even like child care which obviously is a massive issue and the cost of living crisis as well. Wow and what can you tell us about the kind of sex work that you do yourself? I'm an online dominatrix. So I work with clients online, solely online, people who are wanting to explore fetishism, people who are sadly too nervous to go out and explore these things physically with someone.

So it's easier for them to come online and talk about it and discuss it instead. Yeah, so I did start off just doing content about three years ago where it was just like photographs and videos and then I decided to go down the online dominatrix route. So why did you decide to make that decision? What led to that decision? What made you think that that was the path for you? I mean, there was lots of things that I was really interested in. I have always been very interested in sort of fetishism and erotica. I was really interested in things like vaudeville theatre when I was really interested in things like Borderville Theatre when I was younger. And then that sort of led into exploring more things like burlesque and sort of like going like down. Like I did do burlesque when I was younger.

And then as I got older, I sort of started exploring that there was like fetish clubs when I lived in London. And it just sort of went from there really and then I decided to go down the route of becoming a dominatrix it was something that I enjoyed and when I realized that there was like a platform for me to be able to do this and to explore more into like BDSM I decided to go down that route. What do you enjoy about it? I just enjoy like how it makes me feel as like a woman I enjoy that it also gives something to someone else as well like obviously when I was first exploring these things I it was a relief for me to know that like there were people out there who were like minded. And now I'm glad that I can also provide that for for people as well who are wanting to explore these things.

I also like like the history behind it. Like I said, I've done a lot of research into like fetishism over the years and like how far back it actually goes. Like I even found out that Queen Victoria was really into BDSM. Wow. Okay. That's very interesting. I did not know that.

Of course, I understand for you, Evie, this is very much a choice, the profession that you have chose. But for many women, it is not. Let me bring in now Nikki Adams of the English Collective of Prostitutes, which is a grassroots organisation of sex workers and supporters campaigning for the decriminalisation of prostitution. Good morning to you, Nikki. Good morning. So calls to your organisation have gone up by a third in the last few months. So what are women calling about exactly? We're getting calls from women who haven't eaten for a couple of days. When in the beginning of September, end of August, beginning of September,

when mothers were trying to cover the cost of their children going back to school, school uniforms and all the other expenses associated with that, we saw an increase in calls from women then going back into sex work, sometimes both going back into sex work, sometimes having left for decades or starting sex work. It a range housing problems featured very high people getting evicted or where women had to work from home then getting threatened or abusive treatment from landlords or from others we've seen a big increase in sex working mums just like Evie said but not only in online work across the whole spectrum of sex work. And that has really been tragic because a number of those calls have been where women

have actually gone back into sex work or started sex work and now are being threatened with losing custody of their children. We are based at the Crossroads Women's Centre with Support Not Separation and we're fighting a number of cases like that. But the other thing I would say is a real theme is that benefit sanctions are having a terrible, terrible impact because women are on benefits that are already below the poverty line and then get sanctioned and are left destitute.

And, of course, that means that your options are literally to go out, do a shift on the street, or work in a brothel. And, you know, it is really mothers, as Evie said. And we're hearing, you know, every day we're hearing women sort of say, of course, I'm going to do that. This is a difficult and dangerous job made much more dangerous by the prostitution laws. But, of course, I'm not going to let my child go without. I'm not going to stand by and see them go without. And I really would like to say that this has to be the moment that they decriminalise sex work, that they address the problem of the laws which force women

to work in isolation and mean that you can't come forward and report violence to the police, and that they implement the Home Affairs Committee recommendation that sex workers on the street and in premises be decriminalised. But they've also got to tackle the benefit sanctions, tackle the terrible poverty and homelessness and debt that sex workers, that women are facing. But sex workers are additionally penalised because you are being criminalised for caring. You know, you are taking the doing this massive sacrifice, really doing a difficult and dangerous job in order to support yourself and your family. And then you're criminalised for it. And that has to end. It really is the moment that we want an immediate amnesty from arrest for sex workers. But we want the decriminalisation of sex work.

Of course, Nikki Adams there and Evie. And of course, Nikki Adams, appreciate your view very much. Thank you for sharing it with us. But many people, of course, would disagree with what you're saying in terms of decriminalisation of prostitution. I'm afraid we're out of time. Time is against us. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. We'll be back tomorrow. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Video games can be fun. Restart on BBC Sounds. They can also be a danger to your child.

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