Woman's Hour - Christina Lamb on Victoria Amelina, Alex South, Actor Beth Alsbury, Debbie and Helen Singer, Female photographers

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

The award-winning Ukrainian writer Victoria Amelina has died from her injuries after a Russian missile hit a pizza restaurant in the eastern city of Kramatorsk on Tuesday, where she was eating. Journalist Christina Lamb was a friend of Victoria’s – she tells Nuala about her and the impact her death has had.Half of prison officers in England and Wales do not feel safe at work, according to a recent large-scale survey. Alex South spent 10 years working as a prison officer, and she’s written a book, Behind These Doors, about her experiences. She speaks to Nuala about working in such a male-dominated environment and shares her stories. Up-and-coming actor Beth Alsbury takes the lead role in a new TV drama called Blindspot, which will be on our screens this week. Beth plays Hannah, who thinks she witnesses a potential murder, but struggles to get the local detective, played by Ross Kemp, to take her seriously. Beth joins Nuala to talk about going straight from drama school to set.On Holocaust Memorial Day earlier this year, Woman’s Hour featured an audio series about young girls who’d come to the UK on the Kindertransport and lived in Tynemouth and the Lake District. A photograph used on BBC Sounds for the series featured three young girls, one whose identity was ‘unknown’. A listener told us the ‘unknown’ girl was her mother, Hanna Singer. Her two daughters tell Nuala what happened next.The National Portrait Gallery has just reopened with an exhibition of the life and career of Yevonde, the pioneering London photographer who spearheaded the use of colour photography in the 1930s. Also open at the Photographer's Gallery is another exhibition of an influential female photographer, Evelyn Hofer, famous for documenting the lives of ordinary people, places, environments and objects. The curators of both exhibitions, Clare Freestone and Clare Grafik, tell Nuala why the contributions these women made may have been overlooked.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. On the programme today we have Alex South. Alex was a female prison officer for 10 years in some of the most infamous male prisons in the UK. She did find being a woman sometimes was an advantage. We will hear why. You might remember there was a large-scale survey of prison staff by the cross-party Parliamentary Justice Committee and that found half of the prison officers in England and Wales do not feel safe at the prisons that they work in. Well, Alex's book is called Behind These Doors. We'll hear what happened to her behind them and also to her colleagues and prisoners.

Also this morning, we'd like to hear about the stories you've discovered from old photographs. I'll be following up on a story about an unknown girl in a photograph of girls on the kindertransport. Well, she's not unknown anymore. Her daughters got in touch with Woman's Hour, so we're going to chat to them. And we'd also like to hear your story. Maybe you'd like to share your discovery from old photographs.

If you have that story, you can text us. The programme number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Instead, if you'd prefer to send a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444.

And from found photographs to forgotten photographers, Yvonne and Eveline Hofer, we're going to speak about the two hugely influential women who are finally in the spotlight. And one more woman in the spotlight. Beth Aylesbury will be here. They are playing the lead in a new TV thriller, Blindspot. That is all coming up. But first, on Woman's Hour. Tributes are pouring in for the award-winning Ukrainian writer, Victoria Amelina.

She died from her injuries after a Russian missile hit a restaurant in the eastern city of Kramatorsk. That was last Tuesday. We were just getting the news of her death over the past 12 hours or so. She was dining with a delegation of Colombian journalists in the city when the missile hit, and around 60 people were injured in that attack. The Writers' Association, PEN Ukraine, said doctors did everything they could to save her life, but unfortunately, the wound was fatal.

Victoria was a war crimes researcher and one of Ukraine's most celebrated young writers. Her first non-fiction book in English, War and Justice Diary, Looking at the Women, Looking at War, is due to be published. I'm joined now by Christina Lamb, the Sunday Times chief foreign correspondent and also a friend of Victoria. So first off, Christina, I'm really sorry for your loss. Thank you for coming back to Woman's Hour today. And I suppose really your thoughts as you begin to process

this terrible news that is coming through. It's just the saddest thing. She was so young, so full of life, so beautiful. And it just really brings home the absolute futility and brutality of war. This was somebody, she was a talented poet, a writer. She founded a literary festival in the Donbass. And she had dedicated after the war, started to try and find the truth of what was happening

and tell people about it and research, go to different places, taking risks to tell people about the war crimes that had happened. I last saw her, went to her flat for dinner in Kiev about three weeks ago. And she was so excited because she'd just got a writing fellowship to go to Paris for a year. And so this, I guess, would have been her last trip before going on that fellowship. It's very difficult to try and understand the kind of, I suppose, the chance way that this happened.

I alluded to the fact there that she was dining with a delegation of Colombian journalists to try and raise awareness of exactly what was happening in Ukraine. What more can you tell us about that attack in Kramatorsk

for our listeners that weren't following it closely? Yeah, so, I mean, this was a pizza restaurant, the Ria Lounge in Kramatorsk, which is quite a large large fortified city in eastern Ukraine, but slightly away from the front line. The people stayed there going to cover Bakhmut,

which has been in the news a lot. And people, it was very busy. It's a place everybody goes to for pizza when they're there. It was like seven o'clock in the evening. And then there was this missile attack. It is absolutely impossible to see how that was in any way a legitimate target. I mean, the irony of this is what's happened to her. It's a war crime.

And that's what she was trying to expose the world. The reason that she was there with the Colombians, she had a Colombian writer in the delegation who she was very like a conduit for other writers. She wanted to bring people from outside so that they would see from themselves to go herself with other Ukrainian writers to tell people the stories. So she was in London for the book fair in April. So she had just posted actually the day before a picture of the Colombian writer hugging a Ukrainian writer and sort of saying how much this means to us that people from outside are coming to share our experience. She was a war crimes researcher as well, as you mentioned.

I do think it's poignant, just as we were talking about Victoria, we see that an international centre to investigate Russia's invasion of Ukraine is set to open in The Hague. And this morning, that's what's kind of coming up on the news wires. I mean, do you think that there will be real movement to try and hold Russia accountable for crimes? There has to be. I mean, things like this. This is a, you know, an innocent 37-year-old poet and writer with everything ahead of her. She was also a mother. She has an 11-year-old son. She was telling me when we had dinner, you know, how happy she was about going to Paris, that her son was in Poland once the war started. She moved him to be with

family there for safety, but she felt guilty. guilty you know we talked a lot I'm also a mother and a writer we talked a lot about you know the difficulty of you know what's right what's wrong how you get the balance and she felt the guilty that she wasn't seeing him more so this fellowship in Paris was a chance to actually be with him she'd arranged French lessons for him before they were going. It's so sad like again you're talking about those the timing of things and I'm sure that plays into how difficult this is as well how did you meet her Christina? I met her through a mutual friend, Emma Shercliffe, who is actually her agent. And so when I first started going to Ukraine, when the war started, I wanted to meet Ukrainian writers.

And so she put us in touch and we became friends. That was last year. And then ever since, whenever I've gone there there I've always met her for dinner or here when she came over to London we met for lunch and she was just a joy to be with she really you know was such a bright president such a talented writer and the book that she was working on, I think, was a very important thing, talking about the stories of women like her, other women with sort of high profile careers, lawyers, doctors you were part of that community, but it does underscore the danger, of course, by being there, by telling those stories from the inside. And I'm just wondering what some of those conversations are at the moment, whether her death changes that in any way or the risks that people are willing to take. I think it really brings home, because she wasn't killed in a trench. No, no, of course. She was killed in a pizza restaurant

at seven o'clock in the evening. I mean, she was in a coma from the start. They moved her from Kramatorsk to Dnipro, which was a risk to see. And she survived the journey because the hospital in Dnipro is much better equipped for treating people. But unfortunately, she never gained consciousness. And yeah, I mean, if anything illustrates just the brutality

and pointlessness of this war that really does to me. It's just so, so sad. Before I let you go, Christina, you know, we were watching what some were calling an attempted coup. That was about, you gave me, a pregosion last week. Some thought it might topple President Putin. Of course, it didn't. But do you see that, what happened there, even those few days of questioning as any sort of change in this war

or Mr. Putin's hold on power? Of course, you know, there was a lot of excitement in Ukraine that day because it did look like maybe this was the beginning of the end. But other people were very cautious. I think it's shown the weakness of Putin. But, you know, unfortunately, there seems to be support for the war and russia from other people so i think you know we can't even if he were to go and i don't think that he is about to go anywhere i don't think unfortunately that this is the end of this and we haven't seen like russian troops fighting less as a result of what happened last week.

Christina Lamb, thank you so much for coming on. I know she was a close friend as you illustrated talking about her and the joy that she brought to people. That is Victoria Amelina who has died following her injuries after being in that missile attack in the city of

Kramatorsk. Christina is the Sunday Times chief foreign correspondent. Thank you. Thank you. I want to move on now to prisons and prisoners and prison officers in particular. Half of the prison officers in England and Wales do not feel safe at the prisons that they work in. That's according to a recent large-scale survey of prison staff by the Cross-Party Parliamentary Justice Committee. You might have seen this come out about a week ago or so. My next guest, I want to talk to her about that statistic and hear the stories

behind it. Alex South spent 10 years working as a prison officer for His Majesty's Prison Service. She was just 22 when she got her first job working inside a men's maximum security jail. She's written about her experiences that are jaw-dropping at times in a new book called Behind These Doors. It's out this week. Alex Hath is here with me in studio. Welcome. Hiya, thank you so much for having me. Well, you say that you are a braver, kinder, more understanding person, but also more cynical and a little paranoid after your experience. How do you explain that? Well, I would say braver, kinder, more compassionate, etc. Because prisons are very

reflective of society. So the people that you meet inside, it often holds a mirror up to society. Things that are going on outside, you see that reflected inside. And I think it just opens you up to the world. You know, my experiences in prison have made me see so much more of what's going on. It makes you much more self-aware of your own position in society

and also of the kind of pressures that other people are under. When it comes to feeling more cynical and a little bit paranoid, I think it's almost inevitable yeah i do want to stress that in prison i've seen so much good you've just seen so much courage from the staff bravery from other prisoners you know as you mentioned those statistics earlier they're really tough places to work at times really challenging can be extremely volatile exploitative

environments and sadly i don't feel surprised to hear that I think you said half half the prisoners don't feel safe that doesn't surprise me um but they can be places of of real optimism of real hope and so when you lose that very basic kind of need for safety for staff you're losing the ability for people to kind of translate those skills into others um I think it's inevitable to an extent you're going to become more aware you see all the good in people but you do see the bad in people as well I think that's probably inevitable an extent you're going to become more aware. You see all the good in people, but you do see the bad in people as well. I think that's probably inevitable in that kind of line of work. But I think if we can try and alleviate some of these pressures that staff are under, you're going to open up the doors for so much more good to go on.

You were just 22 when you started. I mean, that seems very young to me. You talk about optimism there. You must have been optimistic walking in. What was it like walking in that first day? It was terrifying. It was really daunting. I mean, I think all the things that you see in the documentaries, you know, you see the big walls, the calls of barbed wire, and there's dogs barking. And, you know, I mentioned the book very early on. One of the first things that I saw was this big sign saying, don't bring in a bomb, don't bring in a gun, you know, things that seem very obvious. But actually, you know, I learned in my training

that that stuff had happened, you know, the IRA escape in the early 90s, example of guns being smuggled into the prison service. So yes, it was daunting in absolutely every way. Having said that, you know, when I went into my first prison, I was surrounded by staff who probably at minimum had about 20 years experience. It was very low staff turnover, very high staff morale. I was surrounded by staff who probably at minimum had about 20 years experience it was a very low staff turnover very high staff morale I was working with really emotionally intelligent people I think when you think of prison officers you think of perhaps physical interventions restraints etc and that loses the focus on the real emotional intelligence of these people how attuned they become to things like subtle shifts in atmosphere you know being able to pick

up on a problem before it's happened, knowing when to talk, when not. So it was daunting, definitely, but I learned a huge amount from it. But that was a category, A prisons. They are prisoners that are there for a long time. But you do paint a positive picture of that experience, some which you've said right there, the people that were around you. Tell me a little bit more about what life was like in that prison and also how those prisoners treated you. You're a 22 year old young woman walking in, from what I'm hearing, among mainly male officers that have been there a couple of

decades. Yeah. They're twice your age. Yes. At the minimum. Yeah. There wasn't many new staff. So at the time, I think I came with about, I think it was three of us. So yes, it was a very male-dominated environment. But I was supported from the moment, from the get-go. As soon as I walked in there, I had huge support. There was a lot of investment in staff, a real emphasis on staff relationships, staff-prisoner relationships, which ultimately is what keeps you safe, is investing in those relationships. So, you know, I mentioned the hope and the optimism stuff,

because that's really what I took from that place. And yes, you've got really long term prisoners there. At that particular prison, I think the average sentence was about 25 years. But having said that, I think sometimes there's a misconception of what a life sentence means. When actually the overwhelming majority of prisoners, they are getting out, they will be released. I think we have about 65, maybe 66 prisoners in the entire country with a whole life tariff. The majority of these people are getting out.

So it's really important that we do as much as we can to support them, to prepare them for our own society and our own communities because that's where they're going back to be. So this all sounds very much like rehabilitation that you were talking about, which of course would be, I would imagine, a huge purpose of taking up that job. But I am thinking you're female going in, you're much smaller, I would imagine,

than a lot of these people that you're coming up against. How did that feel? Were you physically intimidated at all? You know, not nearly as much as you would think. Why is that, do you think is that well I definitely had that in my head I would say that was my own kind of preconception you're going up against people who you can't hide from the fact they have very violent backgrounds but the skills that you can bring you know the overwhelming majority of situations you can kind of talk yourself into

and equally you can talk yourself out of and these are the skills that I learned in that job sort of negotiation and and being very aware of kind of circumstantial changes and different things going on for different people it's a much broader context to it. Like what? I'm just trying to think of what a circumstantial change might be that you're like your antenna are up. So it'd be things like being aware of changes that are going on in a person's life if you're approaching the anniversary of their crime, that kind of thing. You know, there's so much more to the prison officer's work than obviously this just idea of the physical issues going up against people. They're big, they're very real. And in recent years, those have exploded, really, which I think in part probably explains the statistics that you've mentioned however um you know the main skills that prison officer develops in my experience is the ability to talk to people is the ability to form really positive long-lasting relationships

that offer someone a way out and i think as a woman that's a particularly important skill to have i mean in very male dominant environments particularly the prison that you mentioned if you've got a male prisoner who's having a confrontation with a male member of staff that can be really charged you know there's a lot going on there. There's issues of kind of masculinity and not wanting to back down, you know, versus another man, or sometimes just a female presence can diffuse that to an extent because you're giving someone almost a way out, you know, without losing face, so to speak. Gosh, yeah, it's like, I don't know what you call that. Some sort of not backhanded compliment

is the thing. It's kind of, it's sexist, but it can be useful because they don't mind backing down in the face of you because you're a woman. Yeah. It's not sexist. Yeah. But, and I'm also just thinking a lot of these guys would have committed some of the most heinous crimes against women.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tell me about Ben. Ben was someone you were assigned to look after. He could be quite unpredictable, I understand. One bit nice, and the next he's raging and screaming at you. Yes, and that can be quite commonplace. So, for example, the wings that I was working on,

they had about 120 men in all single cells. And some of those prisoners hadn't left there, hadn't moved to a different cell, for example, for 10 years. You know, this is a really long term population. So you see people in all different situations. You see them when they're having a good day, a bad day. You know, prison officers are there when they get a bad phone call, when they wake up on the wrong side of the bed. And they can be really fraught, you know intense environments white more really focused and you know and all the prisons do focus on staff prisoner relationships and that's a really important thing to develop but it can be intense

you know and um you know in that particular situation i had someone who for me that behavior was very difficult to predict could be very up could be very down and that's real life you know these are real people these aren't sort of snapshots in documentaries i will say that we have changed you have changed the names in your book ben is not ben yes no no everything is clear sure go ahead everything's changed yeah but you know that that particular example really demonstrated to me the additional weights on people so that particular individual was was at the time under an ipp sentence which is indeterminate for public protection so they do do not know if, when they will ever get out. Exactly. That's exactly. If you try to fathom what that would mean, you're putting someone

away and they have no idea when they're getting out. And no idea isn't me kind of picking it up. It literally means no idea. It's very difficult for, obviously, for that individual, it's hard to fathom what that would be like. But also for staff to try and figure out those pressures. You can't offer them a certain regime, you can't offer them a certain course, because you don't know how long they're going to be inside to do it. So it's huge pressures on people. What he did, he accused you of having an inappropriate relationship with him. Do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about that, and also the impact that it had on you, perhaps?

Yes, basically, as I said, he made an accusation and I was really well supported by staff. And, you know, fortunately, there was nothing to prove, so to speak. But it was a bit of a turning point for me because I had gone into prison with this idea that I could definitely try and help everyone I came across. And, you know, I did have very good intentions. And I think there's real room for that. There's amazing work that goes on in prisons every day. But it did have an impact on me. It definitely affected the way that I worked. And you had to prove your innocence as well for somebody you were trying to help. Yeah, it's a hard one, isn't it? It's very conflicting. There wasn't really so much to

prove there. I mean, you know, it was quite easily disproved, but, you know, it definitely demonstrated to me that there's a lot more going on than perhaps the things you see on the surface. So this idea of someone just locking, unlocking doors as an officer, there's so much more context to the people that you're dealing with. These are complicated relationships. Very complicated. Away from you, it was reported earlier this year that a total of 18 women at a North Wales prison had been sacked or resigned after crossing relationship boundaries. Three guards had been jailed for having relationships with prisoners. What did you think when

you read that? It's really tough to read stuff like that for a number of reasons. I cannot emphasise enough the amount of incredible women that I've worked with, people who do amazing work in prison. And inevitably when you hear those kind of stories, it tars that a bit. So as a female, in my case, former officer, that's hard to read. You know, I remember very clearly,

on my first day, when I walked into my first prison, I sat with a fantastic manager. And he was very clear with me. And he said, you know, if you arrive to work on time, you're late. Your boots have to be polished. Your hair must be up. Your shirt must be top button done, ironed. There's no negotiations, no exceptions. And it's so much more about something, you know, sort of like following the dress code in a workplace.

It's how you present yourself to other people. It's respect for yourself and, in turn, respect for the job that you do. That communicates a really powerful message. So, obviously, you know, with those women, I don't know the stories. I don't know exactly what's going on. But I think when there's,

in the prison service at the minute, there's huge soaring violence rates, et cetera. When you have that going on, other things kind of fade into the background a bit, standards slip a little bit. And it's easy to see the wider impact that can have. You, in the book, you talk about a meeting you had with the prison ministry you don't say which

one about your experience and what would be helpful to make the job better for prison officers but you weren't happy uh with the response why i left that meeting that meeting feeling very deflated you know the wording used was that the things i was asking for were fluffy um i don't think it's one person's responsibility necessarily i don't think it's one person's responsibility necessarily. I don't think it's one person's poor decision or one government. But we need to do more. I mean, the statistic

that you mentioned, we started 50% of staff don't feel safe. It's not 50% of staff saying they just don't like the job. They don't feel safe. I think it was 80% a lack of morale. So what should they do if you were to give, I don't know,

your top number one thing that could be instituted? I think prisons need more time out of cells. Prisoners? I mean, it's hard to, the logistics of that can be difficult. I know we're low in staff in most prisons, I think, but if people are just stuck behind a door, it's very hard to imagine them coming out feeling motivated,

energised, wanting to do better. You know, they're bored, they're fed up, tempers flare, and that impacts on the staff who have to deal with it I'd say some of my listeners would say so what if they're locked up in the sense of that is the punishment for their crime yeah I understand that I can understand that completely but I think that the questions we have to be asking what do you want from prison because we don't lock people up for life you know they are coming out that is happening and how do you want them to feel when they do and I think probably most people would have the same answer you know we want to feel safer we want our streets to feel safer we want

to want our kids to feel safe we want society to be a safer place that's what people really want and the reality is that that doesn't align with locking people up all day um you decided to leave um I imagine it was a build-up off some of the issues you've mentioned already what impact does it still have an impact on your life now it doesn't you know I think as I mentioned earlier I feel I'm a much more aware person I think I'm a compassionate person I'm a braver person for sure I'm much more conscious of the world around me and that's that's, that's a consequence of that job. It doesn't impact me anymore in that way. You know, I don't feel stressed anymore. I think, I guess that's very natural. I've come out of this really high pressured, you know, stressful environment. I, you know, I'm removed from that now. My, my life is very different now. But to hear those reports and things does take you

back there in a second. Just on a lighter note, you know, we were talking about, you know, prisoners trying to smuggle various things or their families perhaps or friends or gang members, whatever it might be, trying to get stuff over those prison walls. But you did intercept a drone that was delivering something to a prisoner. Yes, it was a very exciting moment to start off with. You know, we see the drone coming over the yard. It's very specific noise kind of a hushing a hissing and we'd see that we'd seen these drones on the yard and crashed in the morning but by that point we know it's too late the drops happened this is one of those rare moments where you see it happening so that was big

that was exciting we know the cell it's going to we run up there we open the door straight through it's uh some chicken nuggets and a drink so like the ultimate anti-client max you know but prison food isn't isn't getting it sometimes were they allowed to eat it we let them have a couple of nuggets oh just one or two and and move on so interesting um your book alex alex south that was a prison officer for 10 years, as we're hearing. Her book is Behind These Doors. It's out next week and will be a Radio 4 Book of the Week later in the year. I should say we've contacted the Ministry of Justice for comment on the meeting that you had, but they have chosen not to respond.

Alex, thanks so much. Thank you. Alex's book, Behind These Doors, is out this week and will be a Radio 4 Book of the Week later. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. In the year.

Now we want to move on to my next guest, who is sitting beside Alex right here in the Woman. Now we want to move on to my next guest who is sitting beside Alex right here in the Women's Hour studio. They are an up-and-coming actor taking the lead role in a new TV drama, a thriller really, called Blind Spot.

I think that Beth Aylesbury was taking some notes there from the prison officer thinking about future dramas. Beth plays Hannah who thinks she sees a potential murder on the housing estate CCTV that she has been employed

to monitor but struggles to get the local detective played by Ross Kemp. Yes, he's back to take her seriously. Let's listen to a little. The woman followed him in here but she never came out. So where is she? The bins.

What? I was watching the cameras the entire time and she didn't leave before your officers arrived. Her body must be in the bins. Did you find him? She's in one of these. There's nothing in there but rubbish. What about the others? It's a busy night and we've got lots of calls to attend to.

What if I'm right and she's still alive? You're a DS. You don't come out to any call. You know there's something wrong here. All right, lads. Take a look in the bins. Oh, the frustration. My guest, Beth Aylesbury, as I mentioned, is here. She's Hannah there in that clip in Blindspot. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you. So what was it like to play the character of Hannah? Oh, the best time. When I first got the breakdown for the character of Hannah, I was like, I have to play this. I have to play this I have to play this every from my sense of humor uh just how single-mindedly determined she is she's a lot more outspoken than I am but you are are you headstrong and fearless I like to I keep going until I get what I want I think I think I like I am like no if it takes me five years or five days like if I want to set my sights on something I'll get it but she's definitely a lot more um she's less diplomatic about the whole affair than I am and gets herself in a bit of trouble because of that but um she's so much fun to play it's a totally different experience um watching

it I found because Hannah is a wheelchair user um as are you. Was that the part written for a wheelchair user or adapted for you? Yeah Rob Kinsman the writer is a wheelchair user and he wrote it as Hannah as a wheelchair user from the get-go which was really refreshing to like read a script and see bits that like she moves to smooth the ground and stuff like that, like written in the script or like her knees don't fit under the table from her chest, like these little tiny things that were like, oh yeah, this has been written by someone who understands this experience.

Because we're not used to seeing a disabled person as a lead character in a thriller, I think, or a drama often, you know, as a victim or vulnerable. But I think we talk about, you know, being in somebody's shoes. I feel that we are in Hannah's chair as we watch it. Yeah, I think it really, because she can't just hop a fence or like run down the stairs if she's faced with trouble. She has to think that much quicker and that much.

She just has to be so much more on it in these situations. It really does raise the stakes, for sure. But I think it's great because her disability isn't the topic of the show but it's so integrated and central to her character as well, which is something I hadn't seen. So when I read the script, I was just like, this is beautiful, I have to do this. It raises understanding.

Yeah, completely. In a way that is unimaginable before you're watching it, which is great. What was it like then to, because it's very action packed as well. And I should just tell our listeners as a background that you used to be in a circus group. Is there an intersection?

I think I'm a bit more willing to just chuck myself in because of that. For sure. And at drama school, they train us in fight and stuff like that. But I never thought I'd get a chance to use those skills. I didn't think someone was going to employ a wheelchair user to do those things, at least for another decade. I didn't think the industry was there so this was yeah it's very action-packed really great to film those bits

were definitely my favorite bits to film for sure it's uh it's full-on was it exhausting it was like a very intense shoot like I think any shoot where you're the majority of screen time is exhausting and when like you're going through someone's emotional experience where like it's a thriller, it has you on the edge of your seat and Hannah goes through it. So doing that for the whole shoot is exhausting, but it was equally exhilarating. And the other part of this, you were talking about perhaps

the industry not being ready for 10 years. You got this part pretty much straight out of drama school, Radha. Yeah. Did you talk about smoother ground? Did you expect things to go so smoothly? No, I did not expect. I just, I was on a theatre job when I was auditioning for this as well. And I was like, oh, it's really nice to have a job straight out of drama school. Now it's all going to dry up and I'm going to do the, you know, work somewhere in an office for a bit in like the usual first year at a drama school stuff. But this just came along.

And yeah, the first year at a drama school has not been what I expected it at all. I cannot complain one bit. It's just been, yeah, exhilarating. And it was in, I was reading this, it was in Budapest. Yeah. In Hungary, standing in for Leicester. Yeah, yeah, Leicester is Budapest, which, like, I've looked at it, you can't, you can't tell. I didn't know until I watched first and then read into it afterwards. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, I got to see all different parts of Budapest, I don't think I'd ever

would have seen as a tourist. Got to go all around the houses. And, I mean, fantastic. I love that. I love when you get a surprise as well with something that you're not expecting. You're non-binary. And at the Royal Shakespeare Company, you understudied for both a male and female part. Tell us about that.

Yeah, my first job was with the Royal Shakespeare Company in A Christmas Carol. So, beautiful Christmas show. And I was ensemble and understudy. So flexibility is definitely, I think, that's valued in that. But yeah, I understudied. I had a part every night that was Mr. Hinge. He comes on in the big Fezziwig ball and we have a big, big dance.

And I also understudied Mrs. Bulldog and adult Tiny Tim as well. So there was one show I got chucked on halfway as Mrs. Bulldog as well. So I started the play as Mr. Hinge, finished it as Mrs. Bulldog, which was an experience. So, yeah, the full gender experience. That's like mental gymnastics. It was, yeah, I had to get my whole bodice on, the wig on, the skirt, going from like a little waistcoat. And yeah. So how do you feel about that in the sense of the industry? We talked a little bit about representation.

But what about inclusion? Do you feel, I mean, are you still looking for something to be more progressive? Because I think you were surprised, as you said, by Blindspot at its level of progressiveness. I think it's, you always hope. Like, I think as an actor who, say, whatever identities you hold, you hope that something's going to be out there, a story that you've never seen before, about a person's life that you've never seen before.

And you always hope that they're going to be out there. But often a lot of people I know from drum school are writing those stories now. They've taken it into their own hands. They are making that inclusion happen. They're making that representation happen. But then for that to actually be produced by a channel is a whole other thing.

But then you've got things, a lot more online platforms, a lot of different ways of expressing yourself now. So I think that stuff is out there. It's just not in the mainstream yet. And I go full circle. Ross Kemp going back 10 years. It's 10 years since he's been acting.

So how was that? Yeah, it was really lovely because I'd never been on a TV set before and he hadn't been on one acting in quite a while so it was quite nice that the both of us came to it kind of fresh it we weren't neither of us were quite alone in that kind of getting into the rhythm of things again um he was great to work with had a fabulous time and there's a lot of the scenes you'll see our characters are quite antagonistic points but a begrudging uh partnership does emerge blind spot is what beth aylesbury is starring in what will be next um i'm doing a lgbt new writing thing up in

manchester in a couple of weeks out Outstagers at the Lowry. So that will be my next thing. Lovely. Beth Aylesbury, star of, I said, the new drama Blindspot, starting on Channel 5 tomorrow night at nine and carrying on every day for the rest of the week. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you. Some of you getting in touch about photographs, which I am going to talk about next.

Let me just read this one. After my father died, I found a photograph in his wallet of a young boy, approximately 14 years old, who looked very much like one of my brothers. I'd always known my father had had various affairs during his marriage to my mother. And I've often wondered if the boy in the photograph is a child born from one of those relationships. It doesn't sound like whether you found out how interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. 84844. And I read out that text because going back to Holocaust Memorial Day on the 27th of January, we featured an audio series, The Girls. It's on BBC Sounds, and it's made by BBC Newcastle. And we talked to two of the daughters of Jewish girls who'd come to the UK on the kindertransport and spent seven years living in Tynemouth and the Lake District being looked after by Tyneside's Jewish community.

A photograph was used on BBC Sounds as the image for the series and it featured three young girls photographed at Liverpool Station in 1939. Now, two of the girls were Ruth and her sister Inga. But the girl on the right of the photograph was, and I put this in inverted commas,

unknown. During the Woman's Hour programme, Debbie Singer texted in to say the unknown girl in the picture was her mother, Hannah Singer. Let's listen. Deborah has messaged to say the girl in the photo with Inge and Ruth at Liverpool's new station is my mother, Hannah Singer, Niamh Cohen. My sister and I are delighted to know who the girls are at last. Thanks to BBC Woman's Hour, everybody is smiling.

So, voice off Anita there, of course. Well, Debbie also tweeted BBC Newcastle. And as a result, they've made another episode of The Girls, which has been released on BBC Sounds this week. Debbie and her twin sister, Helen, have since been reunited with the only girl in the photograph who is sadly still alive. The other two have passed, but Inga is the woman that they met.

And I'm joined now by Hannah's twin daughters, Debbie and Helen Singer. Good morning. Good morning. Lovely to have both of you here. What a story. It's amazing. Isn't it? Yes. My understanding, Debbie, is you heard Anita's interview on Woman's Hour and then decided to tweet in.

Well, it was even earlier than that on that same day, which was that a friend of ours sent us the article about this hostel and it's got the photo in it. And we saw that the caption on the photo for the three girls says Inga and Ruth Adamets and another refugee girl. And we were like, that's not another refugee girl. That's our mum. That's my mum. That's Hannah. And we had known about the photo for a long time. And we'd always wondered who those other two little girls were.

And so it was fascinating for us. And it was very exciting when Anita read my tweet out on Women's Hour, you can imagine. And then when we were able to contact the producers from radio and BBC Newcastle they said Inga would like to meet you. And what did that feel like Ellen? Oh we were so excited to know that we would be able to meet Inga. We'd first heard about the photograph when my uncle, my mother's twin brother, who was a great user of public... More twins in the family. Yes, exactly. So he was a great user of public libraries

and he saw the photograph in about 1990. So that would be about the 50th anniversary of the Kindertransport. And he saw this picture and recognised our mother by her coat. But as you know, the Kindertransport scheme was for 10,000 unaccompanied children. So who were allowed into the country.

They had to have sponsors. And it was taken 84 years ago this Wednesday. And if you've seen the picture, our mother's on the right with plaits. They're these two little girls with curly hair. And the one in the middle is looking up at our mother, Hannah, and she's holding a doll. And she told us afterwards that she called the doll Evelyn to sound English. But Mum and Inga don't remember the photograph being taken. They don't remember meeting.

It was just a snapshot in time, but we always wondered who they were. Shall we listen to a little of that meeting when you met with Inga? Well, I'm excited. I'm delighted that it will happen. Where are they? They're in there. Oh right should I take my coat off and stuff or leave that on? I've been up since quarter to five this morning because I wanted to be on time. Hello. Hello. You're the two girls. We are. We call you a girl too. Hello, nice to meet you. It's a pleasure to meet you. I'm Debbie. I'm Helen. We're Hannah's daughters.

Well we've already just found that out. I know, we've been looking for you. Whenever I saw that photograph I always said we don't know who the person is. And we were exactly the same. We said we know it's our mother but we didn't know who the other girls were. Debbie, how was the meeting? Well, as you can tell from that clip, it was really exciting.

Yeah. We were all chatting all over each other and I think it was particularly lovely for us to get the chance to meet Inga and to find out about her life and what happened, obviously, a long time since that photo was taken

and also about her sister. And it felt, for us, it felt like we were fitting the final piece into the jigsaw. And one of the things we did when we met was that we showed each other family photos. So we showed her photos of our mum, Hannah, and dad with us she was an English teacher our mum and hers is such a sad story because her mother Inga's mother and baby sister couldn't get out of Nazi Germany and they died in the Holocaust but it did so it did sort of give us a sense of this is what's behind the photos.

We see the photos and they're very poignant, but they're these people behind the photos. And that's true nowadays, obviously, when we see photographs of refugees. Yes, indeed. Going back to other photos, Helen, you also had a family album at the Imperial War Museum. Yes. So when Mum and her twin brother left

Germany, their father, our grandfather Willi Korn, gave them both identical photo albums and that was of their childhood baby photographs and he didn't know if he would ever see them again and sadly they never did. He died and was murdered in Auschwitz

but because they both had these albums later in life, mum donated her album, we've still got our uncles, to the Imperial War Museum. And the photos have just been used in the new Holocaust gallery. So when we went to meet Inge, we met her in the room where they've actually got all these photographs coming up. So it was doubly moving to see these pictures of our mum's baby pictures, and then to meet Inge and to discuss the Kindertransport photo itself. And for us, that picture has taken on a sort of life of its own, really. It feels quite a legacy

and a responsibility to remember that we should show compassion when people are seeking sanctuary from persecution. And talking about marking that history and have it adequately reflect who is in the picture, And we were actually invited to Getty Images archive and we sat there while they changed the caption on the website. And before it had just said three refugee children from Germany and now they've put all their names in. And so it was very moving watching that. And in fact, the researcher, as he was, as he was making the changes, he said, I've given those little girls back their humanity.

And I just thought that was lovely. Yeah. And you told Inga about it as well. Yes, that's right. We phoned her up straight away. We told her all about it. Which is so important. What about that, Helen, of your mum? Do you think, what would she be thinking of this, that the photograph lives on with her name on it now?

I think she would have been really pleased. I mean, she made sure that the legacy was passed on, for example, by giving the photo album to the Imperial War Museum. And her words are recorded in some books. In fact, we first saw that photograph in a book in 1991 called And the Policeman Smiled. So the photograph has been used such a lot. So we think she would have been really pleased. And we're obviously very moved and happy that we've managed to meet Inga as well and people understand a bit more

about the stories behind these photographs and understand a bit more, I think. The humanity of it, as indeed was said as the caption was changed. Thank you both so much for coming in, Debbie and Helen. You can hear more. This story has piqued your interest.

Thanks so much for tweeting us as well. And all the episodes of The Girls, it's on BBC Sounds. And the meeting between Debbie and Helen and Inga was filmed. So you're going to be able to see that on The One Show on BBC One tonight. Another message coming in is from Callie. Because of my interest in family

history, I was given a carrier bag of photographs that was due to be dumped following the death of an elderly relative. They led me to researching my grandmother's uncle who died in the opening days of the First World War and visiting his grave in France on the 100th anniversary

of his death in 1914. Through the photographs, I found my great great uncle Charles who had been forgotten to history. Thanks Callie for getting in touch 84844 if perhaps you've discovered a story about your friends, about your family through photographs

and I'm not leaving photography there yet either because two influential women photographers who have been largely overlooked are getting their time in the limelight this summer. The National Portrait Gallery after its 43 million pound refurb

has just reopened and it has an exhibition on the life and career of Yvonne, the pioneering Londoner who spearheaded the use of colour photography in the 1930s. In fact, you might actually catch them if you are in London.

They're already on all the tubes. You can see posters for that exhibition. Then at the Photographer's Gallery is another exhibition, this one on Evelyn Hoffer, famous for documenting the lives of ordinary people, places, environments and objects, particularly in the 1960s, Dublin and New York, but London and Washington as well. And I'm joined in the studio by the curators of these two exhibitions.

We have Clare Freestone from the National Portrait Gallery and Clare Graffick from the Photographers Gallery. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Thank you. Now, I'd be really interested to hear why you think these women have been overlooked. Claire Graphic, let me start with you. Why aren't they better known, do you think? Well, I think it's to do with the fact that both of them were jobbing photographers on one level and that they were seen, they didn't have a particularly, they didn't see themselves as artists on their own in a studio making their own work. They were very much using their photography, they were working with magazines,

they were doing editorial work. And so in a way, they got sort of segued into being seen as editorial commercial photographers and not artists in their own right. How would you describe her work for people who aren't familiar with Evelyn Hoffer? Well, Evelyn Hoffer's work was really defined by these book projects that she produced through the 60s. And they were really what you might think of now as illustrated photo books. There was Dublin, as you said, New York, Washington. And she really carved a career out of spending a long time in each of these cities,

commissioned to make images to go alongside a text. So it was a big coffee table book, essentially. I was so interested that she was in all those cities. Why was she moving around so much? Was it all for the work? It was for the work, but I think it suited her. Psychologically, it suited her. She'd moved around a lot in her early, sort of in her teens. She'd moved from Europe to Mexico and then to New York. And I think it gave

her this taste for a slightly kind of peripatetic life. She loved going, visiting new places. She was a multi-linguist. So she found herself feeling at home very quickly in different cities. Yeah, I was watching, looking at some of them from Dublin, the Gravediggers, which I was like, that kind of blew my mind. She was there. And then you'd see instead also documenting, we say, huge changes that were taking place in the United States when it came to civil rights, like different worlds. That's right. At the same time. Yeah, at the same time. And in a way, she was very sort of, her style of working was very

unfashionable at the time. You know, at the time, the well known photographers like William Klein were doing this kind of shoot from the hip, 35 mil, really capturing the momentum of the time through their work. And Evelyn was there stalwartly with her big camera, her tripod, really taking her time over all the photographs she took, really engaging with the people that she photographed and having long conversations with them about how they wanted to be seen. Let's talk about Yvonne Claire Freestone. What do you think was her legacy? I i mean she was a real pioneer of color photography

in the 1930s um but not only that she was a feminist actually so she she was a suffragette she opened her first studio in 1914 um she'd actually trained with Lally Charles another woman photographer but what got her into photography was seeing an advert in the WSPU newspaper actually that by Lena Connell another suffragette photographer asking for an apprentice so she went along and she realised then that actually photography was a way that she could become independent. And actually becoming independent was a great way to help the cause. And the WSPU, the Women's Social and Political Union. I was struck looking at some of the photographs of these people that were women, I should say, that were in society in certain roles.

But then she created this series of where they are goddesses from Greek and Roman. I suppose whether it was some of the texts or some of these images that we have of these incredible women. Yeah. So there's around 25 of these amazing sort of tableau of these women really sort of going for it with artifice. She, at that time, she'd just moved into the heart of Mayfair, Barclay Square, and she wanted to launch her studio earlier that year. There'd been this charity ball where some of these women had had gone um as goddesses um but she really just you know she brought them in she dressed them up

um and got them posing uh with a hilarious number of different props that she sourced throughout um london so i mean it seems you know know so creative and innovative and the colour jumps out at you why do you think she was overlooked? I mean at that time colour photography was seen by the establishment as sort of not to be taken seriously actually and it was sort of seen to be more suited to the realms of commercial photography. So I think maybe that's one reason. So a snobbery, basically. Potentially, yeah.

And she was a real original, so, you know, she just went for it anyway. But I think also her archive, her colour archive, was in private hands until the gallery acquired it in 2021. And we've had funding from the Chanel Culture Fund to sort of digitise and make this available. We just got a text in. Let me see. This is from Jemima. My grandmother, Doris Zinkeisen, was photographed by Yvonne and the pictures are in the National Portrait Gallery. So excited to see these amazing, strong women front and centre where they should be! Exclamation mark. Wonderful, yeah. We love the portraits

of Doris and Anna Zinkeisen on the Queen Mary ocean liner and that was one of the commissions that Yvonne took up for Fortune magazine. I love some of the quotes, for example, about Evelyn. I don't like to spy on people. I respect them

and I want them to respect what we are doing together. If it comes to Yvonne, she was talking about instead be original or die would be a good motto for photographers. But their influence of these two women now, what do you think people might take away a clear graphic? I think definitely Hoffa's very influential now in terms of photographers thinking about using colour expressively in their work, but also a collaboration with their sitters. And? Yeah, probably not dissimilar, actually.

I mean, I think that sense of artifice and fun and collaboration is something we can really see in photography. Do you think the relationship with the Sitter's Cleographic was different, for example, with Eveline than it was with some other photographers? Yeah, I do. I definitely do. And I think she liked the large format camera because it made her work in that way, in a sense. But she very much was someone that stuck to her own guns. She wasn't swayed by fashion she knew what she wanted out of the photograph and she knew she wanted this collaborative

relationship with the people that she worked with and why the exhibition now she died in 2009 that's right yeah well it's because it's long overdue essentially um and also i think in the world today you know with very things are very fast moving again. Everything's digitised, everything's on a screen. And actually, I think people really like slowing down in a gallery space, looking at work that's really had its time taken, you know, time taken over the way it's been negotiated, the way it's been framed, the way it's been composed. So's a it's a really amazing time to actually slow ourselves down in in a physical gallery space and actually look at this work um properly back to

Yvonne another message coming in so lovely to hear about Yvonne she photographed me in 1975 not long before she died says Alison I had just got engaged and she was the only person who caught me. I hate being photographed. So maybe that tells us about the sitter. Yeah, I mean, I think also about Yvonne, because she had this amazing way of putting her sitters at ease. And she treated apparently, you know, treated everyone in a very in the same way, whether they were high society or. Most I saw were of women. Yes, I think she said she did prefer photographing women.

She was part of these women's networks. But there are men in the exhibition, Edward James, George Bernard Shaw. Oh, yes, yes, I did see that one, which was so interesting to see in colour because I've only ever really seen him in black and white. It's fabulous stuff, I have to say. I really enjoyed going through the pictures seen him in black and white it's fabulous stuff I have to say

I really enjoyed going through the pictures Claire Graphic and Claire Freestone thank you both so much for coming into us and the exhibitions as we mentioned

are on now Evelyn Hoffer is the Photographer's Gallery Andy Vaughan Life and Colour at the National Portrait Gallery let me see Val

I finally saw a photo of my great grandparents on my dad's mother's side. All dad's photos went down with the HMS Exeter in the Java Sea. I was struck at how similar he was to the man that I chose to marry. Thanks for getting in touch Val. Join me

tomorrow. I'll be speaking to the Chief Inspector of Probation Justin Russell in an exclusive interview for the BBC. He'll be discussing a new report inspecting the work undertaken and progress made by the Probation Service over the past five years to protect victims and reduce domestic abuse by those on probation. I hope you'll join me. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Imagine if you could get hold of your favourite pop star's personal mobile phone. What might you find out? I was like, this is a crime. This is the story of how a group of Korean pop stars and their friends were caught sending each other videos of women they'd secretly filmed during sex, some of whom weren't even awake. So what if she's unconscious? You raped her. An investigation that blew the lid off digital sex crimes

in a country divided along gender lines. The result of all this is a shattering of faith and trust in Korean men. I'm Chloe Hajimotheou, and from BBC Radio 4, this is Burning Sun, part of the Intrigue podcast feed. All episodes are available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.