Woman's Hour - Christine Flack, New Ofsted school grading, Emma Barnett

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Caroline Flack was a Bafta-winning TV presenter, host of shows including Love Island and The X Factor. In February of 2020, she took her own life ahead of a court case in which she was charged with the assault of her then boyfriend, after weeks of press scrutiny. Her mother Christine Flack tells Clare McDonnell about spending the past five years uncovering documents from the Metropolitan Police and the Crown Prosecution Service to try to find out more about the events around Caroline’s death and she also questions the role of the press. That journey is documented in a two-part documentary out on Disney+ called Caroline Flack: Search for the Truth.A new schools inspection system begins in England today. Overall judgements, such as 'good' or 'requires improvement,' have been scrapped and schools will now be given one of five grades in several different categories. The changes were prompted by the death of the head teacher Ruth Perry, who took her own life in January 2023 whilst waiting for the publication of an Ofsted report she knew would grade her school as "inadequate." Clare speaks to the BBC Education Reporter Vanessa Clarke and Tom Middlehurst, Deputy Director of Policy at the Association of School and College Leaders.Louise Penny is the multi award-winning Canadian crime novelist. Her books have sold over 18 million copies worldwide and this year marks the 20th anniversary of her hugely popular Inspector Gamache series. Her latest novel is called The Black Wolf and follows on from her previous one The Grey Wolf. Gamache has foiled a plot to poison Montreal’s drinking water, but has discovered that this is simply phase one of a dark master plan and he needs to take on not only an organised crime syndicate, but also delve into the murky depths of government and power to discover who the black wolf is. There is a brand new podcast out from a familiar voice - Emma Barnett: Ready to Talk, in which Emma invites listeners into her world for bold, honest, and deeply human conversations about the experiences in life that shape and connect us. In the first episode Emma talks to her friend, the journalist and presenter Kate Thornton, about something she’s never spoken about publicly before: perimenopause. In the UK, 13 million women are currently experiencing the perimenopause, or menopause, but information about what it is and what can help can be hard to find. Emma tells Clare about her own experience.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, this is Claire Macdonnell and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. This morning, we hear from the mother of TV presenter Caroline Flack, Christine, who has spent the last five years since her daughter took her own life trying to get clarity on the events around her death, uncovering documents from the Met Police and the Crown Prosecution Service and also raising questions about the role of the press. Caroline Flack, Search for the Truth,

is a two-part documentary out today on Disney Plus. Now, here's a question. How do you create a character that you can write about for 20 years and not get sick of? Answer, base it on your husband. That is precisely what the author Louise Penny did in her Inspector Gamash series. The latest in that series, The Black Wolf, is out now and delighted to say, Louise will join me in the Woman's Hour studio. If you are peri menopausal, do you feel your doctor is listening to you?

Are you getting the support that you need? And if you are at the younger end of when it's thought perimenopause begins, where your symptoms attributed to something else? Well, a familiar voice will join me in the Woman's Hour studio today, the now today presenter, Emma Barnett, and she's going to talk about her experience of perimenopause and the gaps in her treatment, which she documents for the very first time in her new podcast,

Emma Barnett, ready to talk. So tell me this morning about your experience of getting the support that you need through the peri menopause. You can text the program, the number as ever, 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website as well, or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 0,700-100444.

And of course, the BBC is very much in the headlines today with the fallout from the stepping down of Director General Tim Davy and the resignation of news CEO Deborah Terness. We, of course, would welcome your views as ever on this matter. That text number again, 85058. Well, let's start the programme today with this. A new school's inspection system begins in England today. Overall judgments such as good or requires improvement have been scrapped and schools will now be given one of five grades in several different categories.

The changes were prompted by the death of the headteacher Ruth Perry, who took her own life in January 2023. Whilst waiting for the publication of an Ofsted report, she knew would grade her school as inadequate. Ruth's sister, Professor Julia Waters, has been campaigning for change in the way Ofsted rates schools ever since and spoke to Women's Hour in September last year. And she told us today, just before we came on air, of her deep disappointment.

And I quote, this is not the reform that is so urgently needed, saying that she believes it is negligent for Ofsted to be allowed to plow ahead despite the warnings. We'll get a view of the Teaching Union shortly on the changes. But first, let's talk to our education report of Vanessa Clark. Welcome, Vanessa. Good morning. So let's go over the difference parents, teachers, will see. from today, what changes are being brought in?

Yeah, so Ofsted inspectors will be back in schools today using this new framework. Now, if people remember the old style system, there was, as you say, an overall judgment such as as good or outstanding in different areas. This was scrapped a while ago and there was a big consultation by Ofsted which had more than 6.5,000 responses from teachers, parents and carers on this new system. And I think the best way to describe it, it's a bit like a traffic like system there are five grades from green to red and several areas of school life from curriculum to teaching to inclusivity will be inspected and then separately this time you have safeguarding which will have a pass or a fail rating now offsted have said the changes will be better for

parents it will give them a more detailed and useful look at their child school nursery or college and the government have previously agreed saying that it will raise the bar for standards across the board. We should see these first report cards issued probably in January, but the first inspections will take place from today, as it'll take a while for them to report back. OK, that's clear. Why did we get to these point? Why were these changes needed? Well, yeah, listeners will remember the tragic death of head teacher Ruth Perry, who took her own life after her school's inspection. And the changes are a direct result of the coroner in her case saying Ofsted contributed to her death. So as you've heard from her sister, Professor Julia

Waters, has campaigned tirelessly, particularly for well-being to be taken into account in inspections. And that has brought about significant change. But as you've heard, the plans are controversial. All of the teaching unions, as well as Mrs. Perry's sister, say the high-stakes consequences of inspections have not changed. And the National Association of Head Teachers was in the high court last week as they want to challenge these plans in court but they lost that case with the judge saying that really

Ofsted could choose how to handle its inspections basically I think the main difference is Offsted have kept a form of grading by using these colour codes on various areas whether unions want a narrative approach like they do in Wales and Northern Ireland where there is a lot of detail but no scale that you're graded on

but the court last week heard you know many parents are in favour of a grading system as it's very clear where schools are performing well and less well. But the NHT are, as you're probably hearing a bit from another union, they're going to ballot members on strike actions. So, you know,

this may not be the last we hear about this. Okay. And that is that just one union balloting? Other unions balloting too? Yeah, the NHT are the head teachers union. They're the one that pushed this judicial review in court and they're not happy. They may go

for an appeal there and they will also and ballot members now on strike action. They still have serious concerns about the damage to the mental health and well-being of school leaders around it. Offsted, on the other hand, they say they'll continue to engage constructively with all those involved about the changes.

But I think it's fair to say all the unions agree they're not happy, but it seems to be the NAHT, the main head teachers union that are pushing ahead at the moment on this. Vanessa, stay there. We'll bring in Tom Middlehurst now, Deputy Director of Policy

at the Association of College school and college leaders. Welcome to the program. Why are you so unhappy with this? We've just heard that you've lost your appeal to get it looked at again. But why are you so happy with the changes that have been laid out? Well, I think for the reason that Vanessa has set out, we all have read the reports. We've seen what came out of the coroner's inquire, which clearly said there was a future danger of lot of life unless these issues were addressed. I mean, that's the bar we're talking about here. We're talking about a head teacher that took her own life with the coroner saying that Osteed played a part in her decision to do that.

And we don't think these proposals go far enough in addressing that. As Vanessa was outlined, head teachers who received that phone call from Osteed this morning will still get a grade across more areas than they would have done last year. So far from this being the end of grading, which is what the Secretary of State had announced she wanted to do when Labour came. to government. Actually, within more grades in the system, not fewer. And that is going to lead to poorer well-being for headteachers, other school and college leaders, and for staff. I'll answer the question then that that's, this is what parents want, though. That is the issue, isn't it? Parents like the grading, they like the colour coding, they like the colour coding, they want that clarity for their children. They need the comparison. How do you answer that?

Absolutely. And Austin have been very clear in their research and in the consultation responses, the parents did prefer this new style of report card. It is very clear. It is very simple to look at and understand where a school is at. However, the pressure at places on school and college leaders and the staff in their schools means that we might find the retention crisis that is already a massive problem in some areas of the country getting worse. We might find head teachers and leaders leaving because of this high state accountability. And I think then parents would say, actually, we'd much rather have a really strong leadership team in our school. We'd much rather have great teachers that want to stay in the profession

and teach my children. And I think that if you're trying to strike the balance between providing that really rich information for parents and doing something that doesn't break an already beleaguered workforce, we've got to get that right. And I just don't think what's come out today is going to do that. We've got a statement from Ofsted. They also say, well, they say this, our new approach will help raise standards for children, particularly those who are a disadvantage or vulnerable. They go on to say these report cards will have a clear understanding of schools' strengths and areas for improvement.

They'll also be fairer by recognising their strengths alongside areas for improvements without that single word judgment. So that's gone. What's wrong with that? Well, because there was still going to be these five grades, does six grades in the system. More if you have an early years provision of you have sick porn. So those grades are still there.

You know, this idea that the grades have disappeared is simply not true. You can provide that rich information for parents in a narrative way. As you said, that's what they have in Wales and in Northern Ireland. It's what they have in the independent sector. So the independent

schools inspector talk about the strengths and weaknesses of a school in a narrative way. So tell us what that means. Just so it's clear for the audience, a narrative way. What does that mean? Someone's considering sending their child somewhere. They want to know how the school's performing. They want an independent judgment.

What do they read? What they read is what it's like to be a child at that school? What is that young person's experience of going to the school every day? Where is the school really strong? Where does it really excel? Where perhaps are they a bit weaker and need to do some work? And that can be done in a much more narrative and supportive way. There are a set of standards and that narrative report comes from the standards,

being clear about where schools are meeting them and where perhaps they need to do some more work. But it's not putting this sort of Nando's menu style grading onto those different areas of school life. And just so we're clear, how are those schools then judge? Because clearly there is a consequence if you're falling below the standard. How are they asked to pull themselves up? Absolutely. Where a school is not meeting a standard that is identified, and they are given support to make sure they can reach it. Now, of course, when there are serious things around safeguarding or the quality of education, then those are picked up and necessary intervention is made.

And in the state sector, it could work in exactly the same way. That might mean immediately taking a school into a new form of governance. It might mean changing the leadership team where there are really serious concerns. So nobody, no teaching union, no leadership union is trying to avoid that sort of accountability. It has to be in there. But for a majority of schools, this new system just feels very punitive when it could be much more supportive and much more constructive and much better for everyone's mental health and well-being. So do you feel that asking your members for whether they want to strike or not is the only route forward for you now? Well, at the Association of School and College leaders, we're not asking our members whether they want to ballot at this.

stage. Our sister union, the National Association of Headteachers, are at that point. We will keep that door open. We are a membership organisation. If that's what our members, a school and college leaders, tell us they want to do, we will obviously explore that. At the moment, inspections are starting under this new regime for the first time this week. We will see how they go. We will gather more evidence from our members about the impact on their well-being and on their workload. And we will use that to try to try. to suggest how we think these inspections could be better handled going forward. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. That is Tom Middlehurst, Deputy Director of Policy, at the Association of School and College Leaders. And we also heard from our education reporter. Vanessa Clark, if you have views on this, because obviously that new way of rating schools through Ofsted comes into force today,

especially if you are a teacher, do get in touch to the text number 8483. Now, joining me in the Wombsar Studio, I'm delighted to say, is the multi-award-winning Canadian crime novelist Louise Penny. Her books have sold over 18 million copies worldwide, and this year marks the 20th anniversary of a hugely popular Inspector Gamash series. Her latest novel is called The Black Wolf, and it follows on from her previous one, the Grey Wolf. Gamash has folded a plot to poison Montreal's drinking water, but has discovered that this is simply he. phase one of a very dark master plan and he needs to take on not only an organised crime

syndicate but also delve into the murky depths of government and power to discover who the black wolf is. It's certainly a page turner. Louise Penny, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you, Claire. It's wonderful to be here. I could not put it down. Let's start. The Black Wolf follows on

from your book, The Grey Wolf, which came out last year. It's a two-part of why. It is. Well, as you said, it's number 20. 19 and 20, and when you do that many books, it's really important to keep pushing the envelope, to keep challenging myself, to not, because I essentially write about the same core group of characters,

often in the same setting of rural Quebec. And so I didn't want to, it wouldn't interest me to, by mistake, end up writing the same book over and over. So each book has to be different in theme and tone and pace. And it just felt like it was time for a really, wide-ranging look at what happens when the infrastructure falls apart, what happens when there is profound corruption,

what happens in this book when your neighbor is starving and you have plenty and your neighbor happens to be much bigger, more powerful and not willing to share. We'll get into that in a second because it's very timely, isn't it, the author's note, that you put at the start of the book. I just wanted to talk about the main character for people who haven't read the book. before, Chief Inspector Gamash, you based him on, I'm very sorry to hear your husband died, but your late husband now. And you say that's because you wanted to write about somebody you wanted to spend time with. And I suppose you've had that love affair for the last 20 years.

I have. And I was afraid, because Gamash is inspired by my husband, and Michael was the chief of hematology at the Montreal Children's Hospital. So he was pretty much the doctor you never ever want have to meet because he dealt with children who were desperately ill. He had to say things to young parents. No young parents should ever have to hear. He sat with the children through the night and beyond. But he would

come home the happiest man I have ever met. Not because those terrible tragedies made him happy. Clearly they didn't. They were shattering. But because he learned from those young children what a gift life is and what

a betrayal of those young people it would be if those of us who get to wipe grey hair from their eyes as I do, if we don't live it fully with courage, with dignity, with integrity. And that's what Michael had and that's what Gamash has. He certainly does. And I'm so struck when you write about Gamash. I mean, it's very moving to read in those final moments with people. I mean, he's a homicide investigator, but he's there at those moments,

at people's worst moments when they're dying. I guess was that inspired by your husband talking to you about what those moments are like? Yes, very much. And I also myself did a lot of volunteering at palliative care, so sat beside people who were obviously in the last hours of their life and sometimes weeks of their life and was sat beside them as they made that progression.

So yes, I think it's really important. In Canada too, and I know it's fairly controversial, here we have made, which is medical assistance in dying. And many of my friends have already chosen made. I myself would as well. So it becomes really part of the conversation, which is so important, isn't it? As we were talking about earlier in the green room,

that talking about death is really talking about life. How does it feel for you then? Now your husband is no longer with us, just living, I guess, still living with him in so many ways. That's such a great question, Claire. Thank you. I was afraid, because I love my husband so much and saw him, he died of dementia,

that once he passed away, I couldn't write anymore. It would just be too painful. But as it turns out, he's immortal. Now I get to spend, tomorrow morning, I'll spend all morning with him writing about Armand. And in my mind, I'm writing about Michael. And we all get to spend time with him as well. Yes.

I mean, this character is an amazing character. Thank you. He's unusual, too, in crime fiction, isn't he? Because he's, because he has integrity, because he loves his wife, because he has the loyalty of the group around him, if not the higher up in the Socte, Quebec. And as a result, every decision I made when designing these books back 20 years ago was selfish. I chose a village I would choose to live in, populated by characters who I would want

his friends and a main character I would marry. And it turns out I'm far from alone. Oh, millions of people. Do you know what? I was going to ask you a different order of questions, but I think now would be a good time because you're talking about rural Quebec and where you live. This is based on where you live. So people who aren't familiar with your work, let's give them a flavor, a sense of place

of where he lives and where these books are set. Yes, good. Winter was fast approaching. The trees on the surrounding mountains were all. already naked. Their branches gray like old bones left out in the elements. Soon the maples and apples and oaks in the village would also be bare. Many of their red and amber and yellow leaves had already fallen. The first snow was expected in the coming week. A killing frost was on the way. But for now the villages were snug and warm in their heavy sweaters. Their scarves and hats and boots and gloves

were at the ready by the front door. The firewood was cut and stacked. Shovels leaned against veranda walls and snowbrutches had been placed in vehicles, along with booster cables and emergency kits. This was a time to prepare to build the defences. Honestly, and I want to go and have cinnamon quasson at the bistro. I want to check into the B&B with the open fire. This amazing sense of place. So tell us how much you based it on where you actually live. Well, it's very embarrassing when my publisher comes to visit because they realize I have no imagination.

It's fine. Oh, my God, she's writing what she sees. And it's true. If you come to my village, which is Knowlton, just south of Montreal, very close, oops, very close to the Vermont border, you wouldn't immediately say, this is three pines. I think of three pines really as a state of mind when we choose to be good, when we choose decency, when the cutting and clever and sarcastic remark is so available. but you choose to say something nice, then you're in three pines. But it's very much a homage to where I live, to where I found home. It really is, while it's very proudly a series of crime novels,

it is actually about belonging, about our yearning for connection, for friendship. It's inspired by many things, but one was Virginia Woolf's opening to Orlando. and I'm going to make a dog's breakfast of it, but it goes along the lines of, through the lifetimes, through all the guises that Orlando lived. Orlando was searching for only one thing, and it wasn't money, it wasn't power, it wasn't even love.

All Orlando wanted was company. And this is about what happens when you find company. It really is so evocative. It kind of, you know, when you're reading it, you think, I would, I'd love to live there. I'd love to have to have. have that human connection. And against that backdrop, the author's note at the start of this book, says, I wrote this book over the course of 2024 and it turned into the final draft to my publisher

in September 2024. Imagine my surprise in January 2025 when I started spotting headlines that could have been ripped right from the book. Explain. Explain. Yes. You must have been a teacher at one stage. Never. But go on, discuss. Well, yes, after Mr. Trump was elected, he immediately started a trade war with Canada and talking about how wonderful it would be if Canada was the 51st state. And at first we all laughed and thought that's a buffoonish thing to say from a buffoon. And then it turned out to be he seemed to be fairly serious about it. And oddly enough, one of the themes in this book is what happens if some elements, in both countries, decide exactly that, that Canada should become the 51st state.

I mean, was that strange? Did you have some sort of sense that, you know, this is the way it could go? Or was it just complete coincidence? It's complete coincidence. I'm hoping that it's rational. The steps that I take in getting to that. some of it's about climate change, about the forest fires, about natural resources and how the countries with natural resources are becoming the apex nations, and Canada is one. So it just seemed like that was a natural progression. I was worried, to be fair, Claire, that people wouldn't believe it,

that I had gone too far, and as it turns out, I may not have gone far enough. Yes. You cancelled your US tour dates, didn't you? I did. And what was the reasoning behind that? Well, I was supposed to launch this book about a week ago at the Kennedy Center, which would have been, you talk about Apex, the top of, absolutely the pinnacle of my career. I was overjoyed and astonished when the Kennedy Center invited me. And then there was, Mr. Trump was elected, and then there was the coup essentially at the Kennedy Center. So I turned that down. And then there was the trade war. And you cannot go. visit a country that is essentially at war with you. And while lives may not actually be lost, although that's debatable as well,

livelihoods are. And people in my country and businesses in my country are very afraid. People are afraid of losing their jobs, losing their homes, and probably already have. So there's no way I'm going to go to a country that has done that. Having said that, I do want to make the distinction between the administration and the people. I have a lot of friends in the United States. I know that there are millions and millions of people who did not vote for him. At the same time, 77 million did.

But the message of unity and kindness that you have through this book, was that not important to take to an American audience in person and say, let's have that discussion. That's a really interesting question. After I had said no to the Kennedy Center, the Washington Post and others got in touch and asked exactly that. And I really hadn't thought of that when I said no. And it troubled me a little bit.

Did I make the wrong decision? And it's possible I did. I also, though, feel that going there would have been acquiescence. I also didn't feel comfortable to stand in front of an audience, an American audience, and harangue them in person. I didn't feel that was right. I just felt that the message would better be said by action. And the action was to not go.

And that not necessarily as an attack against the United States, this was an act of support for my country for Canada, being very clear that the books are set in Canada. I am Canadian. I am grateful every day to be a Canadian, and now's the time to stand up. And if I didn't, then shame on me. It sounds like you're incredibly principled as well,

in line with your late husband, in line with a character you've created. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's sometimes a challenge to write a character who's nicer than I am. But thank you. That's very kind of you. I know you're concerned because I literally want to visit this place now. Is it going to become a little bit of a kind of tourist on the tourist trail, do you think?

It is. There are tours coming from all over North America. And I've just opened a cafe under our local bookstore. So there's a place for you. You know, the natural progression from hosting women's world is to become barista in three pines. You're right there. And I would be very happy with that progression. And so all there would be authors out there, you were rejected, weren't you, first of all?

By everyone. By everyone. Everyone. I was a global failure. If I could have launched it in outer space, I would have been a galactic failure. And one of the things that, for the most part, I heard nothing, which was devastating. There was just silence. What I did hear from a couple of publishers was no one would be interested in a crime novel set in Canada.

Now, what do you say to that? I knew that wasn't true. And I knew, even though they wanted me to set it in the United States or in the UK, these are love letters to Canada, to belonging to home. I couldn't possibly do that. And it turns out that they weren't correct. They were wrong. In fact, they were wrong.

Thank you so much. It's been an absolute delight to have you. I have so enjoyed this. And Woman's Hour. I'm such a fan. Thank you, Claire. Well, thank you. Louise Penny and Louise's book

The Black Wolf is out now Lovely to meet you Thanks for dropping by You are listening to Women's out Keep your text coming in Lots of topics we're asking you about today Going to be talking about the perimenopause With Emma Barnett shortly

A listener wrote in To talk about perimenopause heroes She says a massive thank you to my GP in West London Who saw through a tangle of symptoms Which I thought were a serious illness Started me on HRT and gave me back my life. I couldn't be more grateful. So there are some stories of success out there. Emma's going to be joining us shortly in the studio. So do get your experiences into me. 848, sorry, 84844 is the

text number. Now, let's talk about Caroline Flagg. She was a BAFTA winning TV presenter, host of shows including Love Island and The X Factor. She went on to win Strictly Calm Dancing in February 2020. She took her own life ahead of a court case in which she was charged with the assault of her then boyfriend after weeks of press scrutiny. Her mother, Christine Flack, has spent the last five years uncovering documents from the Met and the Crown Prosecution Service to try to find out more about the events around Caroline's death. The journey is documented in a two-part documentary out on Disney Plus today. Caroline Flack, search for the truth. Christine also questions the role of the press.

When she joined me in the Women's Out Studio, I started by asking her why she thought it was important to make these two documentaries. I thought the image of Caroline when she died was completely wrong. That wasn't Carrie. And she had already started to talk to a company, to put her side of the story because there was no way that anyone else was listening to her. So that was in my mind. And also after the inquest into Caroline's death,

it just threw up so many questions that I thought, this isn't right. Nothing makes sense. And I just wanted to put Caroline's voice out there, really. Yeah, and the documentary starts with her voice, with a voicemail, a voice note rather, saying maybe we should do a documentary about this. Yeah.

She couldn't find anyone to talk to. And she was saying to me, why don't you, you know, say this to someone and then she'd come back an hour later to say, no, no, I've been told I mustn't talk, I mustn't talk. So the documentary shows your mission, piecing together information on what happened that night and how it was followed up by the police

and how she was treated by the press. So let's start with you piecing together, what was reported to police on the night she was arrested, 12th of December 2019. Tell the story, what had happened? Both Caroline and her boyfriend had been out drinking, but had been out separately. And they met back at Caroline's house.

They didn't live together, but he was staying there the night. He fell asleep. Caroline had her phone in her hand. She was looking at things on her phone, like she did almost 24 hours a day. And his phone rang. She looked, there was a text, and it was from another woman.

So she had a phone in each hand. She turned around with his phone saying, you know, what's this? Angry. And as he sat up, it caught his head. They then had an argument. She was really getting in the state. So Lewis phoned, instead of phoning an ambulance, he phoned the police. And he said on that phone call, oh, she's hit me.

I think it was a lamp. It might have been a fan and that's where that came from, the idea of a lamp. The police turned up and Caroline then she cut our arms really badly to the muscle

because she knew she could see what was going to happen if you like. The police straightaway thought that it was because Lewis was this six foot five chap and carries this little dot they thought wrongly that Lewis had done something to Caroline and he hadn't and she said straight away no I did it I hit Lewis um they came in they did take the phone they had an ambulance they sent for an ambulance Lewis was looked at

and there wasn't anything wrong there was a slight mark on his head which again wasn't good you know it wasn't good but they said he was all right he was fine to go home they looked at Caroline and they said, no, she needs to go to hospital. Her arms are really badly cut. And so she went off to hospital and was kept there for quite a few hours. The police left. They took nothing from the flat at all. They'd got the phone with the blood on it on the corner. And that was it. So that's what had happened at the incident. And then what happened with the follow-up with the police? Did she go from the hospital to the police station? What happened next? What they did, the police then took her to a police station, put her in a police in a cell.

And her lawyer came to her. She phoned her twin sister, who wasn't allowed into the police station even. She stayed for eight hours outside and was phoning me. And she said, Mum, you know, Carrie, it's really bad, it's not nice. And the lawyer stayed there until the CPS said, no, it wasn't worth prosecuting. just a caution. She admitted that she'd hit Lewis with a phone, but unfortunately for her, she said it was an accident,

which in her mind, it was an accident, and even to Lewis. He didn't want to press charges. I think he realised that, do you know, this has gone too far. This was, you know, an argument, a bad argument, but it's gone too far. While Caroline was in the police cell, another detective inspector came on duty

and they were in an open office and she overheard them talking about the case and they said well it's finished she's had a just you know CPS have thrown it out and it's just it's a caution and she didn't agree with that she wanted a press for the CPS to charge Caroline and that's what happened

and that's what happened on the safe of that one DI yes Have you, through all of your investigations, found any material evidence that led that D.I. to make that decision, to make that change? No. I asked her at the inquest, what did you think of Caroline? Her mental health, you know, when you went there, she said, oh, I didn't see her. She didn't go into question her. She said, but, you know, she didn't admit guilt. And, but the very first thing that the, when the police arrived, wrote in their notebook, Caroline said, I did it, I did it.

But in the interview, Caroline said, yes, I did it. It was an accident. But trying to get any notes or any reasons for why the detective inspector pursued the charge, I can't because they weren't kept. We then moved through the documentary into what happened afterwards. And how the press got hold of the picture inside the bedroom, of the blood-soaked sheets and how Caroline was treated and the impact of how it was being reported in the press, the impact it had on her. The son put this picture on its front page. How did he get that picture?

Her boyfriend had taken a photo of the bed where all the blood was after Carrie had cut her arms and he'd sent it to a friend. I think he may have just said, oh no, look what's happened. Do you know, I'm not saying there's anything malicious in it at all. But unfortunately that friend then sold it to the son. It's not Lewis's blood, it's Carolines. And there was a lamp that got a ring around it as if she'd hit her boyfriend with a lamp. And all of it was untrue.

But once it was out there, that's the name she got. She was being called the lady with the lamp. There was a Valentine's Day card created about her hitting someone and just the comments from people you know how awful she was and even some radio programs they started talking about domestic abuse from women to men and I know that happens she knows that happens it's absolutely dreadful but it hadn't happened in this case but that's what she was being called a domestic abuser and that's far from the truth, that all her friends would tell you that that's far from the truth.

What kind of impact did that have on Caroline when that front page hit? It was the start of the new year, wasn't it? It was New Year's Day. It was devastating because she'd been home at Christmas. We were getting through it. And I think, you know, she thought, well, there is a way out. There was certain times where she got really low. But I think she thought maybe there is a way out, you know.

Then that appeared. and it just devastated her. She rang me and said, Mum, have you seen the paper? Which I hadn't because I don't really buy it. And it just put her back right to the start, really. I don't think people would even know

that she'd really cut her arms. And it wasn't the first time that she'd, you know, she'd done nothing as big as that, but she did suffer at times. And she'd spent, you know, days sort of in hospital and different places. and she'd go in like we'd say for a week to just feel better but after a day she'd ring me and said I'm home mum

I'm better now it's you know and a lot of it was to do with and I think a lot of the ladies listening to this was was around her periods you know if something happened and she felt okay she could get over it she wasn't weak she was a strong person but there were certain times where she just couldn't handle it And her sisters and I used to say, a couple of days, she'd be all right. But for those two days, she herself thought she was mad.

She'd be called mental. She'd be, you know, all these words that go along with these things. So then seeing that in the paper, actually what she'd done at one of these times. Yeah, it was awful. And to go back to the police investigation, what you highlight in the documentary, and you've just said there, there were inconsistencies on the lambs, on the phone. If the lamp was part of this investigation, it was actually left at the scene, wasn't it? Yes. But the police just left. They took nothing. And yet the detective inspector

that was pushing for prosecution said it was evidence-led. The spiral came for Caroline and things were bad, but they got worse, didn't they, when she realized that this was going to go to trial. The decision was made that this is going to go to trial. trial. Tell us the impact it had on her. I think the couple of nights before when she died, her lawyer or solicitor phoned her up and he said, they're still going to prosecute Caroline. He said, but don't worry when it goes to court or if it goes to court, they can't possibly, you know, find you guilty. But it was still going to go to court. And someone mentioned to her that they would use the body cam of her. It wasn't

her doing anything bad to anyone else, but it was her in a distress. state. She couldn't handle that. And do you think that was the final straw for her? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, lots of questions in this documentary that you've spent five years digging to see

whether you can get answers. And I think it's so telling that there you are, sometimes filmed, trying to get through to the Sun newspaper, trying to get through to the Met Police. Tell us what that has been like. An ordinary person trying to get answers out of institutions.

You get so far, everybody's very nice to you. They understand why you're doing it. I wanted to speak very much to Mark Rowley. And I know he wasn't in charge at the time. But when he came in after Cressard Dick, he said things are going to change. Things are going to get better. And I thought if he'd give me five minutes, perhaps he could explain why or look into it. And I even sent him an email saying, I'm begging. new. Please talk to me. Nothing. I've got a statement here, part of which reads from the Met, organisational learning was identified around record keeping and documentation of decision making. These have since been addressed through policy reinforcement and training. Processes, though, did not identify misconduct for any officer, including in relation to the decision to appeal the CPS outcome. Are you satisfied with that? I'm not really. I'm not saying it was even misconduct. That's a word that makes you think, oh, she was awful, she did something really bad. I just think she wasn't thinking correctly about this case and I don't know what reason. We've got a statement

here from the CPS as well. I mean, it's your view that she was treated differently because of who she is, because of her public profile. The CPS says we are satisfied that the prosecution was correctly brought and a person's celebrity status never influenced. whether a case is taken forward or not. What's your view on that? I don't think that's true. I really don't think that's true. After speaking to people that have been in the police,

and especially I spoke to one woman that dealt with domestic abuse all the time, and quite often she said she was asked to let go people that had even used a knife against their partner, and they were going back and living together. Caroline and Lewis didn't live together. He'd already left. there was no danger. She was 40 years old. She'd never ever had anything like this happened before.

Her boyfriend was frightened for her mental health and he told the police that. They just didn't listen. I'm going to read you a part of a statement from the Sun newspaper as well now and they say the Sun received a photograph and information it published. The story was subject to robust pre-publication editorial and legal process and repeated remarks from the court hearing, including a quote from Mr. Burton, Caroline's boyfriend,

that Ms. Flack did not hit him with the lamp. That's what they say. They say they've published the truth. Have they? I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. What do you want them to do? I'd like them, as I say in the film,

to put as much effort into the apology as they did onto the story. The front page, Sorry, Caroline. I can't get Caroline back, but I think her memory should be better than it is now because I still read things online that are so awful about her. And I had to give a talk the other day to somebody about, we were talking about the press and how it treats women in particular. And I was able to get that picture of that front page within two minutes, download. it. It's still there. Because once it's there, once someone's been written about, that's always there. And if there was an apology and correction, that's what would come up as well.

Yeah, that would come up as well. What do you think about the media then? Because that's a really important point. You cut together in the documentary lots of different clips from lots of different news reports. Everybody's saying kind of effectively, this is what being told by the police, this is what happened. Now, on the one hand, you can say, well, that's just journalists doing their job. But that did influence an opinion of your daughter, that everybody seemed to go with the one narrative. What does the media need to learn from this? Just to check things. You know, don't just have it something that sell papers because it's a bad story because they know bad stories about people in the public eye sell better than good stories. But be sure

of your facts. And please, please, government, you know, the level of Inquiry Part 2 has got to be out there You know, it's got to be put through. Some of the most moving parts of the documentary are you looking at baby items that you've kept from Caroline's

childhood and old cinefilm. She was a well-known household name but I guess what this documentary reminds us is there's a family behind all of this. How are you all getting through this now? It never goes away, does it? It doesn't. go away. It doesn't go away and that's the only worry I've got is that I'm keeping it going

for my other children that I might upset them but they've been with this film a hundred percent behind me. They don't really want to be on screen very much but they're with me all the way. So that's one side. The other side is when we all get together, Carrie's with us. You know, we talk about all the time. It's not a no-go's sort of place. We talk about her. We laugh about her, moan about her. We know what, you know, she wasn't perfect by any means. They made us laugh. And all the grandchildren, her nieces and nephews, they talk about her as well. You know, she's not forgotten. She's loved. And if you want people to take, this is all about rewriting her legacy. What do you want people to remember of Caroline? Mostly, what you saw on the

television was Caroline. That was her world. That was her life. And she was like that when she came home. She'd opened the door, your life changed. You know, it was, it was loud. It was, it was, it was fun. And if, you know, they just remember that. That's the best thing. And she felt very lucky to have the life she had. She didn't take it for granted. And I think when that all went, it was, yeah, too much for her. Christine Flagg talking to me and the two-part documentary, Caroline Flagg, Search for the Truth, is available today,

actually streaming on Disney Plus. And just to say, if you are affected by anything you just heard there or they go on to talk about in that program, there is an excellent resource. It's called BBC Actionline, Go There, and all of the agencies that you may need and all the links are on there. It's really, really clearly laid out.

please do make use of that resource. Now, there is a brand new podcast out today from a familiar voice, Emma Barnett, ready to talk, in which Emma invites listeners into her world for bold, honest and deeply human conversations about the experiences in life that shape and connect us. In the first episode, Emma talks to her friend, the journalist and presenter Kate Thornton, about something she has never spoken about publicly before perimenopause. In the UK, 13 million women are currently experiencing the perimenopause or menopause. But information about what it is and what can help, what help is available, is still hard to find.

Emma returns to the Woman's Outst Studio this morning, this time on the other side of the microphone, Emma. Is that a bit weird? It's so lovely to be back here, but so surreal. Good morning to all of you. Good morning. It's great to have you back. Now, you haven't spoken publicly about this before. Why now? Well, I was sitting here when I returned to work from maternity leave after the birth of our second daughter, which regular listeners who'd been on that journey knew it took six rounds of IVF to have her and here she is. She's remarkable. She's now two, nearly three. And I just wasn't feeling quite right. And I thought it was my endometriosis. I have a lot of pain and issues around that and it had come back after I'd stop breastfeeding. But the way I can describe it is my smile just wasn't quite reaching my eye.

I had so many wonderful lovely things in my life and yet I also knew I wasn't depressed. It was a sort of, I don't quite feel like myself feeling. And I began what can only be described as a hormonal safari over the next 18 months. I was given the coil to try and help, quote on quote, with my endometriosis. It made me completely depressed.

I couldn't tolerate it. I then was put onto, or advised to try an anti-inflammatory diet and intermittent fasting and work with my cycles naturally. Again, I lost a load of weight. The only time I'll ever lose weight is when I'm not trying to. And it didn't shift the needle. And yes, I had this terrible pain because I'd gone back to having my natural cycles. But I also, as I described, the sentence it seems to have struck the most with so many women.

And, you know, we've had thousands of comments since Ready to Talk launched at the end of last week, is that my smile just didn't quite reach my eyes. and I knew it always had and always should and that I deserved for it to and I didn't know what was happening and how could I be working on the longest running women's programme in the world? I was 38 going on to 39 when I returned and not think it was potentially the degradation of my hormones.

I then tried a natural progesterone only onto huge levels of that to help with endometriosis with another well-meaning doctor I should say I went privately and through the NHS And then finally, she said to me, it's definitely not perimenopause. And I think once you've had somebody say it to you authoritatively, you think, well, it's not. And the biggest thing I had to unlearn was when I then met another doctor, who's become very important in my life, who said, it is. And I then, with some sort of cruel irony, fished out some like leftover IVF from the bathroom cupboard,

some of the patches, some of the things I'd been DJing my body to have a baby and started trying to DJ my body back to myself because I also had left Woman's Hour by this point. I'd started a big job at the Today program and I can only describe those 18 months as holding on, you know, as cosplaying myself. I was cosplaying Emma Pond, how I was meant to seem, how I was meant to look,

how I was meant to be. And yet I kept being offered antidepressants. I kept being offered things that were just not going to do it. And it took a lot of will to resist those things. And I now know of myself, which I hope is an encouragement to others and that, you know, hormones do degrade in your 30s. We don't really talk about that. I think it's been going on for some time, but masked perhaps by IVF and what was going on with my endometriosis. But I also know I have a strong core when I know something isn't right.

And I am not alone in that. And so I've wanted to create this podcast, a sort of audio room of one's own for a really long time. You know, the headlines of people's lives are so. important and I want to hear about them. And I've easily interviewed more than a thousand people. But I started with me. I felt really uncomfortable. And I have felt like I've wanted to say this for a long time, but I almost didn't believe it until I started taking hormone replacement therapy. And do you feel, I mean, because 38, 39 is around about the time when perimenopause can start. Why was there a block, do you think, from the medics that you spoke to?

I have endometriosis, and nobody knows anything about that either. So it's just a common kind of blank spot of women's experiences? The tangle of symptoms, I've also been knackered for about eight years, and I've got low ferretin. You know, someone told me how chronic fatigue syndrome and put me on some drug that made my blood boil, literally my system. I have firsthand been navigating the blind spots

and trying to hold myself and doctors to account, And here we are now. And I just felt there had been a theft. And I had been stolen and there was no one to report it to. And I was still there. And that's how I knew it wasn't depression. Antidepressants are incredibly important for the right cases. But I could be all right on Tuesday.

But who knows who's going to wake up on Wednesday? And I just had this incredible moment really with a few different women. And this is why I believe very much in intergenerational friendships, which we also talk about on the podcast, is I happen to meet Kate Thornton, who we all met, first of all, through the X Factor and how wonderful she was, on my local train. And I also where her glasses were from, of all things.

I needed some new specs. And I happened to then just blurt out to her on a later message. Listen, I'm not coming out at the moment. I've just started HRT. And she sent me this voice note saying what she had gone through. And I just felt like I hadn't been imagining it. And I, you know, this theft of one's saying, It seems to have resonated.

You know, over the weekend, I think there's 1.5 million views of this particular clip of us talking about it as a theft. There's a reason for that. It was the second most read article on the BBC News website on Friday. There was a lot of other things going on talking about what I felt had happened. And I know that it shouldn't feel such a shock, but it still does. Let's hear from Kate, because this is the conversation you have on the first podcast in the series. And I think this will resonate with an awful lot of people listening to this. Here is Kate Thornton and her experience.

I just thought, I can't do this anymore. I can't do my job. I can't think straight. I would be emotional. I would feel such terrible anger sometimes. Then shame, the shame of that. You'd go home and you wouldn't be your best self in the day. You might react to something in a way that you think,

I wouldn't like you if I met you doing that. So you go home and then what you do is you shrink. because you think I'm not safe to go out I'm not safe to be at work I don't trust that I'm going to be the person that I really You didn't feel safe

Not to like not blow my life up and it could be friendships it could be saying the wrong thing at work God forbid the wrong thing on air you know and it robbed me of all of that and seven years in

is exhausting I was walking the dog listening to this yesterday and that is the quote that really hit me and you feel like you've been taken over and you can't trust yourself anymore. That's definitely how she felt.

We have different experiences, of course, but I'm very grateful that she has spoken like this. And I also have to say a lot of men have been in touch. You know, there's a great quote on one of the comments. Men should know women aren't in a good place if they don't have their hormones. You know, and men wanting to help. My husband's been an incredible support to me. But we've both had to learn on the job with what's going on.

And I really want to have those conversations. I had a lot of them here, but go even deeper with people because, yes, we have the headlines. We have the news and I'm incredibly passionate about that at the Today program and, you know, we'll keep being so. But a lot to discuss today here at the BBC. But I am also incredibly moved and, you know, also am amused. There's some real life-affirming stories we've been dealing with as well of the headlines of people's lives and going deeper on that. those. And, you know, I write a lot to try and express myself. I just wrote this morning on my newsletter trying all about this, where I started writing about IVF, but how we live our lives.

And from years of interviewing, the most important question is how does it feel? And it really is the most important. I've had that be the most important question in an interview with the boss of Heathrow after Heathrow went down. I mean, and you get his actual response. So I just want to go there, keep going there. It's called Ready to Talk. I think everybody who listens to this knows. I've always ready to talk. But I'm also really ready to listen. Lots of people getting in touch.

Just time for one text. As the husband of someone who had their perimenopausal and menopausal symptoms ignored for over a decade by their male GP, the years have lost for the individual and their family never come back. Listen, you're touching on such an important topic with your first podcast in the series. Emma Barnett, ready to talk, is available on BBC Sounds.

Thank you for dropping by, Emma. Thank you. Fantastic to have you. On tomorrow's program, we have a great, great guest. We have the former Prime Minister of Finland is going to be joining us in the Women's Studio. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Ragnar O'Connor from BBC Radio 4 and the History Podcast. This is the magnificent O'Connor's. In war-torn London, a man is murdered. The police arrest 23-year-old Jimmy O'Connor. He's sentenced to death, but Jimmy is my dad. For 80 years, my family has fought to prove his innocence.

And now we're making one final attempt to uncover the truth. But are we ready for what we'll find? The Magnificent O'Connor's. Listen first on BBC Sounds.