Woman's Hour - Christine McGuiness, Dianaworld, Marcia Grant inquest, Weight loss ads

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

The TV presenter and autism advocacy campaigner, Christine McGuinness, is mother of three autistic children, and she received an autism diagnosis herself as an adult. She is highlighting new research from Barrett Redrow which found that half of parents of children with disabilities surveyed said their child is excluded from play due to playgrounds being inaccessible to them. Christine joins Krupa Padhy to discuss the issue.After both England and Wales lost their opening matches at the UEFA Women's Euros, there's a chance they could be knocked out of the tournament today. England could be eliminated if they lose to the Netherlands, whilst Wales need at least a point against France. As defending champions there is a lot of pressure on the Lionesses. The Guardian's women's football correspondent Suzy Wrack, joins us from Zurich.Weight-loss injections have been hailed by some as game-changers in tackling obesity – but their rapid rise in popularity, especially online, has prompted serious concern. The Advertising Standards Authority has just issued a crackdown on how these drugs are marketed, banning social media posts by influencers, including Gemma Collins, for promoting prescription-only medicines in ways that break the rules. Charlotte Edwards, BBC business reporter explains.Marcia Grant was a 60-year-old grandmother and foster carer when she was killed in 2023, by a 12 year old boy in her care who ran her over with her own car. Last week, an inquest found that council failings contributed to the circumstances leading up to Marcia’s death. However, the coroner also made it clear that this was a "national issue." Jane Collins, foster carer and CEO of the Foster Support Membership Organisation discusses the systems and processes that could help existing foster carers feel safe while caring for vulnerable children and why she is called for a public inquiry. Dr Arlene Weekes a social work manager, academic and independent foster panel chair also takes part.How do you remember Princess Diana? Almost 30 years after her untimely death, the late Diana, Princess of Wales continues to be a source of fascination and fandom for many. A new, unconventional biography, Dianaworld: An Obsession, documents tales of everyday devotion to her by ordinary people and charts how the many and varied portrayals of the People’s Princess have seeped into public consciousness. We hear from the book’s author Edward White and the broadcaster and author Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Hello, this is Kripa Patti and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Good morning and thank you for being with us. Important details withheld, meetings missed, and a lack of risk assessments. These are just some of the council failings that are said to have played a part in the circumstances leading to the death of the foster carer Marcia Grant. In November 2023, she was run over

by a 12-year-old boy in her care. Her family have spoken about their agonizing journey to uncover the truth behind the events that led to Marcia's death. We too will take some time to reflect on the state of our foster care system. And Christine McGinnis joins us to talk about inclusive play with these summer holidays upon us and the warm weather set to stay. New research has found that half of parents of children with special educational needs or disabilities feel their child is excluded from play due to playgrounds not being accessible to them. Now if this is something that resonates,

do tell us how your local playground could serve your children better. Your concerns might be about the design of the equipment, the layout of the park or possibly the lack of quiet spaces. And what are the consequences of not having access to suitable outdoor spaces? Does that simply mean more screen time? Maybe a lack of opportunity to meet old friends and new? And maybe there is that pressure on you as their parent, as their grandparent or their guardian to entertain them.

And that too can be exhausting. You can text the program. That number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Over on social media, that's X and Instagram. We are at BBC Women's Hour. That's our handle. And of course, you can email us through our website or send us a WhatsApp audio note.

Our number is 03 700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website. And a new book that paints a picture of the People's Princess through the eyes of ordinary people. We talk about the mark that Princess Diana has left on our public consciousness. Author Edward White and journalist Yasmin Alibi Brown join me as well. But first, after both England and Wales lost their opening matches at the UEFA Women's Euros, there's a chance that they could be knocked out of the tournament today. England could be eliminated if they lose to the Netherlands whilst Wales need

at least a point against France. As defending champions, there is a lot of pressure on the Lionesses. Then here to talk about it all is the Guardian's women's football correspondent, Suzy Rack, who is out in Zurich. Welcome, Suzy. Hi, how are you doing? Very well, thank you. Sorry for the church bells in the background here, which seem to go on forever. I don't think we're catching wind of those church bells. Oh, that's good. It sounds like a very pleasant atmosphere. You're covering the match tonight. Can England bounce back from that 2-1 defeat by France? I mean they certainly can. We know they can turn around results after

difficult performances. When they played France in the Nations League the last time they met, so about a year ago, four days later they having lost 2-1, they then beat them in France 2-1 away first time they had won a game in France in their history. So they do have the ability to turn around difficult results. And it is really hard to think that as many players has had a bad game in that first game could have a bad game in a second. You know, they're still extremely talented players, but I mean, there has to be a little bit of shifting around personnel wise maybe, they need to find their structure, the Netherlands are such a tricky and talented attacking team

that's going to be a really tough ask but it's certainly doable. Let's unpick what happened against France, where do you think it went wrong? I think a big issue was in midfield where you know England were just completely overrun. Sakina Kurochi was absolutely phenomenal for France in the middle and I think George Stanway and Keira Walsh in particular really struggled and I wonder if you know we're desperate to see Lauren James on a pitch. She's obviously England's most talented player for probably a generation, you know possibly one of the most gifted players desperate to see Lauren James on a pitch. She's obviously England's most talented player for

probably a generation, possibly one of the most gifted players that England has ever produced in terms of natural ability. But there's a little bit of a square peg round hole situation there where you stick her in the middle, which they did in place of, say, an Ella Thune and a Grace Clinton, you disrupt the quite structured midfield that they usually have. You put her out wide and you're replacing one of the very natural wingers in Lauren Hemp and Beth Mead or Chloe Kelly. So there's a little bit of an issue there of like, where do you play England's best player? And they've not quite got to the stage of building the team around her yet. So I think that's an issue, like how do you fit in Lauren James also, a sort of half fit Lauren James. So I think that a lot of the issues sort of stemmed from structural disruption from from trying to make things work. But

then I think there was a lot of a lot of players off their game, some really sloppy passing, you know, a whole wave after first sort of 20 minutes where England were really strong, that just fell away. And it was it was just very kind of disjointed and like they hadn't played with each other before, which is so uncharacteristic of this team and concerning in that sense. But you would like to think that, you know, Lightning won't strike twice and that they'll be able to turn that around. So looking ahead to the game later in the day, what do they need to do to bag a win? The big question and I'm sure they'll be struggling to come up with

the answer. I mean I think having some kind of midfield dominance in this game is going to be really critical. The Netherlands have a fantastically skillful midfield, Victoria Peloven plays for Arsenal is supremely good and was brilliant against Wales. You know, they've got fantastic strikers in Viviana Miedema, Berenstein, like they've got some real talent there. So it's about stopping that. The thing is, is the Dutch defence is a little bit weaker, so the potential for them to get goals is there. They've just got to try and not concede. And again, like easy on paper, far harder in real life to actually implement that. Because the reality is

the level of women's football in Europe it is getting stronger and stronger not just here in the UK but across the continent. Well that's the issue right is you know England are constantly having to push their level because everyone is everyone is pushing their level up that gap is getting not bigger but smaller. Despite the fact that the FA are investing more and more every year, everyone else is starting to too, or kind of in the middle of their journey to being able to invest quite a lot in the women's game. Plus, all these players are now playing their domestic football in increasingly professionalised leagues. So many of this Dutch team that we're going to

see later tonight play in England in the Women's Super League, for Arsenal, for Manchester City, for Chelsea. So then you've got players who are at the same level and play a really attractive style of football as the Dutch do. And there's a real levelling of the playing field, particularly at that very very top end. I'd say the gaps from you know say the England and Netherlands and France of the world down to Wales is still very big but you know between the the ones at the top that's really really getting tight which makes for an exciting tournament right because no one knows who's going to win this

competition. Spain obviously probably the favorites they've looked absolutely formidable in this tournament but you could you know it could easily be France, it could easily be England, it could easily be the Netherlands, it could easily be Germany or a team like Sweden outside chance. So there's there's a lot of a lot of potential winners which is only good for the game because it just you know when there's a bit of jeopardy there when it's a little bit more tight that's when the interest increases so this's good for the game ultimately. England going out, not so good.

A couple of details I've spotted that Beth Meade will be facing her partner who was in the Netherlands squad. Yes, yeah, yeah. So she's in a relationship with Ljubljana Miedema. They both used to play at Arsenal together, you know, very open about their relationship. There's a number of different relationships in women's football. So the opening game for Sweden and Denmark, Pernilla Harder faced her partner Magda Eriksen. So it's not an uncommon thing. And extra pressure.

Yeah, quite funny in the press conferences yesterday because Viviana Miedema was in the press conference alongside the manager Andres Jonka and she was asked about whether she would go easy on Beth at all, and she's like, nope, absolutely not. I want her to be happy most of the time, but not tonight or tomorrow, as she was speaking yesterday. And they do it all the time. They now play for Manchester City and Beth at Arsenal. So they're used to playing against each other, they're used to sort of switching off from football when they talk to each other and just, you know, chatting the dog at home like and things like that.

And let's not forget that Wales are also playing tonight. They don't have that weight of expectation on them, but could they score a point today? I mean, anything is possible, right? Like as's European Championship it's a one-off game anything is possible but as I said before the gap between Wales and you know the teams at the top of the sort of FIFA World Rankings is a big one so it's a really big ask it's not like say when Wales men's team first made a major tournament and went on that phenomenal run spearheaded by Gareth Bale because the level of professionalism that the players are playing at domestically is a very, very different thing.

You know, everything's a bit closer in men's football. All those players were still sort of top level professionals and it's not quite the same extent in women's football yet, but it is getting there and I think just even making this tournament is such an incredibly phenomenal achievement and will accelerate the pace of the growth of the women's game in Wales dramatically. So there's you know there can be a lot of heart taken for that they would love to walk away with some goal a goal some goals a point even and obviously that would do England a massive favor if they did but I think it's a really really difficult ask. We saw how good this French side are I think they're now one of the favourites for the tournament based on the performance against England. They look like so much more of a key adhesive unit than

they have in the past so yes it's anything we keep hope we keep hope yes we have to keep a bit of hope don't we indeed. Susie Rack from The Guardian out in Zurich enjoy the game and keep us posted. Thanks very much. Next the TV presenter and autism advocacy campaigner Christine McGuinness is mother of three autistic children and was diagnosed with autism herself as an adult. New research out today from the property development company Barrett Redrow finds that half of parents of children with disabilities surveyed said that their child is excluded from play due to playgrounds not being accessible to them. They also said that they are traveling an average of five

miles to reach a suitable play area. Well as we approach the summer holidays Christine is highlighting this issue and she joins me now live in the studio. Good to have you here. Hello, good morning. Good morning. Tell us a bit about your children and how their autism presents. I mean it's different, it's different for all three of them like it is for all autistic children. I always say if you've met one autistic person you've met one, we're not all the same and my three are evidence of that. All of the personalities, the way they play, the way they socialise, the way they communicate, it is all completely different but the one thing that we have in common with all of them is finding places to play,

especially outdoors that is suitable for them is a real challenge. It's very limited, the places that we can go to, and it's not really got any easier as they've gotten older. Help me understand those specific challenges. Finding places that are tailored for them where it feels like they are included with the other children. There's not many parks or outdoor play areas that will have sensory equipment or that will have a quiet area or that are gated, you know, to obviously to keep them safe and more so for children with additional needs, especially neurodiverse, when they haven't got that awareness of danger, it's really important

to have a park that has got a fence around it where I can close the gate because if they do get overwhelmed or even if they're really excited, it might be a positive feeling for them and they're running around or they're overstimulated in a positive way, they can run and they can climb and there may not be a gate there that I can close for when, you know, they're not aware of everything going on outside, the car park and everything and they'll just, they'll run excited and there's no way to keep them safe and like I said with the sensory areas to try and help them calm down or to give them something that they are actually gonna enjoy doing. There isn't really a lot. I mean this research shows there's really just there isn't

enough and families are traveling up to five miles if not more to go and try and find somewhere that is suitable for their children which it's not okay. You know outdoor place should be there for everyone. It is a right for everybody. It shouldn't just be as limited as what it is. Having your personal experience in this is really important for us to understand those key challenges. Just to give us a sense of when you go to the park with your three children

and as you've rightly highlighted, their autism manifests in different ways. When you take them to the park, what actually happens? What is the process? Is it a specific play area that troubles them? Is it an enjoyable experience overall? I mean, for us, for years, it's been trying to find places first of all that are suitable so there's that challenge of doing that research myself. If I do find somewhere that I think okay this this might be okay it might work

then I would start with taking photographs or even videoing to show the children where we're going. So you have to prep them in advance? To prepare them yeah so they know where they're going. And then I would usually be going at times that aren't really ideal, just so that it's that little bit quieter. So that if they do struggle there, you know, or if there is too many people there or the equipment isn't quite right, that, you know, it's usually just me and the children

or I'd go when the weather's bad and just trying to make use of what is there but it shouldn't be like that. And it's difficult because other children in that space won't understand your child's situation. Yeah absolutely and I think this is why it's so important what we're talking about today is making places more available, making more of them, you know, Barrett and Red Row are committing to do at least a hundred parks that are accessible, not just for noradiverse children, but for children with physical disabilities as well. And it's important for everybody, for other children, to see children like mine and for my children to be able to get out to socialise. It is one of those things as a parent that, you

know, we all feel guilty of when they're sat in and they're having too much screen time and we don't really want that. Yes it's nice of course now and again when you want a bit of quiet but what we all want for our children is to have those social skills, to have some outdoor play, to be in the fresh air and to be amongst others as well. That's exactly a very similar tone to what we heard from Baroness Anne Longfield, Executive Chair of the Centre for Young Lives, a few weeks ago about a new report about raising the Nation Play Commission which she co-leads and she said children are not playing outside enough, instead they are sedentary, scrolling and alone and that the freedom to play has dwindled and dwindled and that's something you're seeing too. Definitely and I think it's important to say for the parents and for the carers as well

who have got these children and we're trying to do our best and we're trying to look after them. It's very, very isolating for us. I think I found it one of the most loneliest times when my children were really little and there really wasn't any way to take them and I haven't seen much change in that. So it's amazing to see that it's happened.

This message says our son is three years old we think he might have special educational needs and we are en route to exploring this currently. One of his symptoms of his challenges is hyperactivity and within that is strong impulses to run away and basically continue his exploration without bounds. It doesn't necessarily limit us in our decision to take him to parks for instance but it does cause a lot of difficulties and stress for us as parents. A lot of play parks that are in parks or set alongside roads either don't have a fence around them or the doors don't work on enclosed fences. It's more important for him to have the outdoors time but it does place quite a

lot of strain on us as parents that's something that you were talking about as well. Yeah definitely and it is quite common for children nor a diverse especially they can run off they can they can get too excited and it is stressful and it's a worry it's another worry as a parent when you're taking children out and about if it's not safe for them you know you're constantly on edge there's no relaxing and that's where it becomes quite isolating for us too. And that's where screens come in as well? Yeah, yeah, which you know, as a parent of three children regardless of their additional needs,

I want them to have a healthier, happier, outdoor lifestyle. Yeah, let's talk about your own diagnosis, which came about at the age of 33 of autism. How did you come to realize that you might be autistic? It was after the children's diagnosis I didn't understand why they were considered different because they were just like me. So when they got their diagnosis then yeah I kind of had to go okay well we've got this and similar, we're coming in that area and I thought it was just because they were my babies, so of course they're going to be like me. But they were areas of quite difficult times and challenges, like

when it came to socializing, sensory food issues, sensory just being out and about, you know, in busier places, I always struggled with. And I just thought that was me and part of my personality. And I suppose in that was me and part of my personality. And I suppose in some ways it is because it doesn't completely define us. You know, yes, we are autistic. I'm autistic and ADHD, but I'm still me. And it's just a part of me. And I accepted that. And I accepted it with my children. So when I realized that it was because of autism and ADHD,

then it kind of answered a lot of questions, but it also opened up a load more of... Changed your outlook? Yeah, yeah, completely. But it's helped me. It's helped me massively. And it's, I always understood my children anyway, but it's helped me, you know, keep that strong bond that we always had. And it's helped me reassure them that everything's gonna be okay and mommy is capable of doing things

and you're gonna be capable of doing things too, so. So it reassures them as a parent who has autism, parenting children who are autistic. So it reassures them, are there any times when it is extremely testing for you as someone who has the condition to be parenting children who have the condition? Yeah, of course.

Of course, my priority always is gonna be pushing my children, but not pushing them too much. I think it's probably a really good positive thing that I'm autistic to, because I can understand where that line is. You know, there's encouraging them to go out and play and to try different foods and even textures with clothes. And it can sort of go too much sometimes and it will make them step back. And I know that because of me and my own experiences.

And I think knowing that has been an absolute blessing and it's helped so much. And I love how much I understand the children. And I do feel like more and more as they get an older Especially me twins Leon Penelope. They're 12 our conversations now are some of the best conversations I have because I feel understood. Yeah You've spoken about this in various documentaries and earlier this year You won a media champion of the year at the British Diversity Awards for your advocacy for autism and ADHD Why was it so important for you to go public? I think being in the public eye I was getting asked quite a lot why you why your children behave like that or you know why aren't you telling them off

because they would be getting overwhelmed when I was taking them out and about. Including to playgrounds And this was part of the problem. And I'd never wanted anybody to think that they would be a naughty or misbehaving or that they were spoiled or that I was being a soft parent. So I thought it was best for them and it was best for me to be able to say actually, you know, there's a reason why they're behaving like this and I would rather help educate other people than, you know, leave upset or get into an argument over somebody having an opinion on my children's behaviour and I think speaking out about it has really helped

and it's been a positive thing. A positive thing. The school holidays are approaching, how do you plan to keep your gang entertained? Well we plan, that's what we do, we have to plan. We have to plan ahead with everything. And yeah, it's challenging. Like it is for any parent, you know, especially if you're working and your children are off school. Mine have eight weeks off school for summer. It's a long time. It is. It's a long time. But I'm getting to that point now where I'm starting to enjoy it. I used to dread it. and it is simply just planning.

I try and make sure that I am at home or I take less work and I try and make sure that they get enough time outdoors so that not just in the house all the time, even if it's just playing in the garden where it is their safe space. It's quiet and there's nobody else there and it's safe for them, they can't run off. But yeah, it is planning. I tend to stick to the same places. So when we go on holiday, we use the same hotel because it's familiar for them and that really helps.

And I hope that it just gets better and better and they get more comfortable going out and about and they get more comfortable being around others and that we can travel to different places. We're not there yet. We're still going back to the same place again this summer. But that's okay. And it actually helps me as well. And you're co-parent with your ex-husband, Adi. So do you do all these things together as a family? Yeah, yeah, we do. And I love it. I genuinely do. I love it. I love it for us. I love it

for me. I love it for him and for the children they're there with their family they're there with mummy and daddy and that's that's how it should be regardless of what has happened between us as a couple you know we still share the same home and we're going to share the same children for the rest of our lives you know and our priority always is to put those first. Wonderful having you here in the Women's Hour studio thank you so much for coming in. And Christine, I wish you a wonderful, peaceful, happy, memory-making summer holiday. Thank you so much.

Thanks for coming in. Thank you. In just a few weeks, as we keep mentioning, it will be Listener Week when we hand the reins to you, the audience, to suggest the subjects that you want us to talk about. Have you taken up a surprising hobby, uncovered a family secret, or beaten a record?

Do you do a job that nobody has ever heard of? Or maybe there's something you're passionate about but would like an expert to tell you more about. Well last time we were asked to look at the history of menstruation. Nothing is too unusual. Please do get in touch with your ideas. You can text woman's hour 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate a check with your network provider for the exact cost though and on social media it's at BBC woman's hour or you can email us through our website now weight loss injections have been held by some as game-changers in tackling obesity but their rapid rise in popularity

especially online has prompted serious concern. The Advertising Standards Authority has just issued a crackdown on how these drugs are marketed, banned social media posts by influencers, including Gemma Collins for promoting prescription-only medicines in ways that break the rules. It raises questions about how these powerful drugs are being sold, who they're really for, and the growing pressure, particularly on women, to turn to medicalised solutions for weight loss and the risks to female influences themselves when they can fall foul of the rules. Charlotte Edwards is our BBC Business Reporter. She's here to tell us what's happened. Good to have you

here Charlotte. Tell us what's happened. Good to have you here, Charlotte. Tell us what's happened. Hi, thanks for having me. So yes, the Advertising Standards Authority has banned nine adverts today, like you said. All of them were said to be promoting prescription-only weight loss medication. Now advertising any form of prescription-only medication is not allowed in the UK. That is prohibited. So if you ever see an advert or you think it's trying to tell you to buy prescription only weight loss medication, that is not allowed and you are allowed to flag that to the ASA and it will probably be banned.

You've touched on it there, but the laws around this might be murky for consumers of these adverts in many ways, all these posts or watching these influencers on Instagram. Just outline the law for us a bit more. So the law is that any prescription or any medication cannot be advertised because the worry is that people scrolling through social media

or seeing an advert on the TV might be influenced to try this medication when actually you should be going to a healthcare professional and getting advice and individual patient advice because not all patients are the same. Some of these adverts that have been banned are very generalized and it might not be the right thing for you specifically. So you should always be speaking to a doctor and not getting advice from Instagram for example. You mentioned Instagram because obviously influencers are often at the centre of this. Influencers who do this, what happens to them? Will they face a fine?

So with the ASA, they can't actually issue fines. The ASA can only say, this is not allowed, you have to take this down and the advert cannot appear again in its current form. But the ASA cannot issue a fine to say, Gemma Collins or any other influencer who has fallen foul of this situation. However if the adverts keep appearing again repeatedly in the same form then the ASA might go to Ofcom and then Ofcom might issue a fine. So it's a bit of a web. Gemma's was one of nine adverts banned by the ASA. Does this in in your opinion, mark a change in the way that we are seeing prescription-only weight loss drugs being marketed? I think it's a step in the right direction as far as the law goes because prescription-only

medication cannot be advertised like this. And yet I myself see so many adverts that seemingly advertise weight loss medication, even though the nine adverts band didn't specifically mention a certain type of weight loss medication like a specific brand, they all allude to weight loss medications and might show injections filled with clear fluid and that all suggests to the viewer that this is a weight loss medication that they could purchase or get online or not from a healthcare professional. So I think it's very important that the ASA has taken this stance and made it clear that this is not allowed. And Charlotte, have we heard from Gemma on this herself? So Gemma did respond to

the ASA and she said she accepted the decision that the bad advert had overset the mark and she would not be doing that again in future and she would make sure that she followed the guidelines in future. And if you are someone like I was saying who follows these influences and might be worried about whether or not to take any advice seriously, what guidance would you give them? So I would say if you're seeing an advert make sure you've read the caption or check that it says ad because an advert should say ad

somewhere on the social media post. Make sure that if it's a healthcare product you speak to a healthcare professional and you don't just take advice from an influencer's post because they might not have the specific advice that's relevant to you and your own health. Thank you so much. If you'd like more on that story, Charlotte's written an extensive piece over at BBC News Online where it is one of the most read stories. But for now, that's our BBC business reporter, Charlotte Edwards, with that story about weight loss injections

and the rapid rise of them online and how they are prompting serious concern in the way that they are being advertised, especially when it comes to social media. Our conversation continues as to how playgrounds can serve your children more appropriately, especially if they have special educational needs or a disability. It's 84844 if you want to send us a message on this, just like this listener has who says, I believe that there should be a separate safe space for children with additional needs or CCTV

in playgrounds to be able to pinpoint the instigator in playground fighting situations therefore it won't make the children with SEND needs continuously feel like quote unquote the problem child as they already struggle with their own emotions and social skills. Thank you for your message, really important points being raised, do keep the conversation going. Send us a message on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. Now Marcia Grant was a 60-year-old grandmother and foster carer when she was killed in 2023 by a 12-year-old boy in her care who ran her over with her own car. The boy, known as Child X, was sentenced to two years in youth custody in November 2023 after admitting causing Mrs Grant's death by dangerous driving after a murder charge was

dropped. Last week, an inquest found that council failings contributed to the circumstances leading to Marcia's death. The assistant coroner Marilyn Whittle spoke of the failings of Rotherham Council to have appropriate systems and processes in place when placing foster children. However, the coroner also made it clear that this was a national issue and not just to be directed at Rotherham. Rotherham Council said after the inquest we recognise the seriousness of the coroner's findings and we will now take time to reflect fully on the outcome of the inquest and consider all appropriate next steps. So what are those systems and processes that could help existing foster carers and those considering foster caring feel safer

whilst caring for vulnerable children? I'm joined by Dr Arlene Weeks, a social work manager, academic and independent foster panel chair and Jane Collins, a foster carer and CEO of the foster support membership organization. Welcome to you both. Jane I'll start with you. You are calling for greater protections for foster carers and a public inquiry into what you call the widespread mistreatment of foster carers. How widespread is that mistreatment as you put it? It literally is a national problem. When I became a foster carer I was very naive to the issues, I think like most people are.

You want to make a difference, you want to use your skills, because I was a qualified teacher to help children and I was kind of army-volunteered into being the local union rep by my fellow foster carers, started to discover some of the problems they had, thought that it was local to our local authority which is Bradford, got offered a role as a national union rep and started to realize actually there's a systematic problem everywhere and as foster carers leave because of the systematic problems the strain on the system increases which means the lack of information sharing, the mistreatment, the things children being placed with foster carers who don't have

the correct training and skills to meet their needs, too many children placed in one household with conflicting needs. All of those issues then exacerbate. We've also now got social media, safeguarding, internet safety, all of those issues have come in as well that is very much nobody knows what they're doing. Foster carers are getting in trouble for making the wrong safeguarding or the wrong deprivation of liberty decisions on that issue. So it just gets more and more complex, more people are out the door, children are left without stable homes and the cost of the taxpayer increases exponentially as well because children end up in you know private provision that costs many thousands of pounds. I mean you've highlighted many factors there

that might make a foster carer feel not just unsafe but unsure about how to proceed with their caring responsibilities. Arlene let me bring you into this conversation. Do you recognize the concerns that Jane highlights there? I recognize some of them I think the word mo Jane highlights there? I recognise some of them. I think the word mistreatment, I suppose I would like to know a bit more where Jane's coming from, because social services is,

or children's services are required to support foster carers. They have their supervising social worker, they are given training, they're expected to attend training. And so I would want to explore a little bit more what is actually meant by the mistreatment of foster carers. Our role primarily is to safeguard the children and in so doing care for the foster carers who care. However I would not negate some of the concerns that's been mentioned in terms of some of the conflicts, the amount of

children, the type of children who might be placed with foster carers. I think there is some merit in some of those comments that equally, you know, would be nice to explore a little bit further. Well, let's try and dig into that a bit more. Jane, first of all, can you give us a bit of context? Because we're talking about safety here. Yeah.

And it's important to stress that lots of families have positive experiences of foster caring. How rare is it therefore for a foster carer to be harmed or worse killed as we have in the context of Marcia in the course of their work? Just outline that context for us. Well from our experience of representing thousands of foster carers and we've run APPGs over the years. We've had Sir Norman Lamb at all party parliamentary groups in Parliament. We've had Sir Norman Lamb there, Ian Mearns, various people. I did a lot of work with Vicki Ford when she was the Children's Minister. There is an understanding at government level of the issues that we're talking about and

some of the comments from MPs when they've been shown the local government ombudsman rulings we've obtained, the court rulings we've obtained around what I've referred to as a mistreatment and malpractice. It used to be, if you went back to say 2017-18 when we were running the old party parliamentary groups, you know, people were like, this can't possibly be happening, all these foster carers are saying these things So what we did as foster carers in forming foster support it was people with professional backgrounds You know, I've got legal background coming together and like right. Well, we need to do more than just telling our stories We need to provide, you know irrefutable proof of what's going on So we've got a lot of local government ombudsman rulings and court cases that back up what we're saying. And do we have those

numbers? In terms of numbers of how many come to hand, I can only tell you anecdotally what we would deal with and come across on social media because it's not a question we've put out there. We did a survey but obviously that's not a survey of every single foster carer. 88% said that they had children placed with them without information, the relevant information to meet the needs. 84% said that they'd been harmed or put at risk of family by not knowing about those needs. We have had members who've been hospitalised. So you have the case studies clearly.

Yeah. And in your personal context, have you ever felt unsafe? You see, I've got three foster children and this is something I talked about in the research to this is, why I would not want this Master Year Grant to be, case to become, is something that really stigmatises children in care. All social workers or foster carers or anybody

because it's a wide spectrum of everything. And, you know, I've got three long-term foster children who are now in the twenties who are amazing young adults, the kind, the caring, the compassionate. And you know, you can't go around and stigmatize everybody. But, you know, we have had foster carers who've had fractured skills and they've been in hospital and they've said to us, you know, I want to give notice on this child because I don't feel safe and the social workers said to them are you sure you're cut out to be a foster carer? There's been an emotional blackmail has been the response. If you are not willing to effectively be harmed in your own home should you be doing the job? Arlene the inquest said that there

were failings to have appropriate systems and processes in place when fostering children. What systems and processes should have been in place? Before we go there can I just say that obviously what happened to Mrs Grant was terrible. There has been one other case and I have done research myself where a foster carer has been killed as well. So I do think we need to give that context but yes I would also agree that there are a number of foster carers who've been harmed. In terms of systems that need to be put in place I do want to acknowledge that sharing of information is

continually raised as a concern about children and foster carers who are harmed. I think we have, well I know that we've got integrated children's systems in place where social workers are required to write their notes and their recordings and there also there is an expectation that foster carers share information. And why is that not happening now because that feels crucial? It is happening, not to the level that it needs to happen and part of the reason is that is the absolute shortage that we know nationally of social workers and the pressure. I would also say that, you know, what's been

said about the government being aware of what's happening to foster carers. The government is also aware of the low numbers of social workers coming in and equally leaving the profession. So social workers have higher case loads than they ever have. I've been a social worker for 35 years, and the numbers that one social worker is having to deal with is off the charts unexpectedly. And I think that people are... There is no... I don't know any social worker in my 35 years who means not to do their recording,

but they're juggling a lot of things and that needs to be acknowledged equally by the government. But of course, in the case of Marcia, the details state that she would not have taken on Childex on a care placement if she had known about his full history from the council, so having a huge workload, not having enough staff, it's really no excuse is it? Absolutely no excuse absolutely I'm not saying that that is an excuse I'm

acting you asked me a question what's going wrong okay so the reality of it and I would agree with the person who is talking here is that foster carers are usually approved a maximum of three children and left is a sibling group. The information that's shared at the first point in an emergency or the first week of placement is usually very scanty, particularly if the child's come straight from home. Then there should be a meeting within the first four weeks where there should be more gathering of information by the social workers, the social work team and that should be shared with the foster carer and the supervising social

worker who's the foster carer's social worker to then begin to determine whether this is the right placement for a child. And the information needs to be better. I wouldn't even dispute that that information needs to be better about sharing whether or not that child is right for those carers and vice versa. And often particularly when this is the first time of a child being in care social workers still gathering information from the birth family and they might not know all the information that later on in the process that we start to get a better picture of. Jane have you ever been in a situation where

you've had a child placed with you but you feel like you've not been armed with the full information that you needed to care for them properly? No, mainly because I did long-term foster care so the children were already being in care for a considerable amount of time and you know they've been through the court process and they become you know long-term placements so there would be a matching process and an introduction process. One boy did come to me as an emergency I was asked to go over numbers I was asked to take him for a week on respite 15 year old with cerebral palsy who's still with us six years later I'm very much part of the

family and turns 21. So a positive experience again so important to highlight. Yeah this is the thing you know and I mean although my two girls I had issues with them around social media phones going missing all the things that happen. I mean yeah I think there is an element you know because what you've got to think with foster carer is you're not in a school environment, you're not in a children's home environment, you are in your own home and you are quite possibly on your own, trying to deal with dysregulated, angry children, which, you know, any teenager can be, let alone a child losing care. And you're also very conscious of the fact that that situation

could turn very rapidly into an allegation against yourself. So, have I felt unsafe at times in the past? You know, some of my foster children are listening to this now, but yeah, you know, there are elements where I've not felt entirely safe, but not in the way of Marcia Grant and that situation, because most children in care wouldn't, in my opinion, be that, you know, that level of excess that happened there. But one thing I would want to say is, you know, that level of excess that happened there. But one thing I would want to say is, you know, the thing about whether Marcia Grant would have taken him if she knew, I was asked that question and I said, I don't know. I said, maybe she would

because a lot of foster carers, if they've got the skill and the experience, will. But what I do think is if she, she wasn't armed with the right knowledge and information to be suitably vigilant. You know, she wouldn't have expected, I would never expect one of my foster children to try and run me over in the car. Yes, and it keeps coming down to that, that the information wasn't shared. The Department for Education spokesperson has sent us this statement. Marcia's death was a tragedy that should never have happened and it's vital that lessons are learned. Foster carers play a hugely important role in the children's social care system and should always be kept safe from harm. Social workers must conduct regular risk

assessments of children in care whilst foster carers must always be given up-to-date information on the children they are fostering. They added we are improving information sharing between frontline workers through the Children's Well-being and Schools Bill making it a requirement for every council to have multi-agency child protection teams and introducing a unique child identifier. Arlene, just before we wrap up this conversation, it's been called a national crisis, the state of the foster care system. We know that there is an acute shortage of foster carers. Would you agree that this is a national crisis? Absolutely agree that it's a national crisis and I think

we also need to think about the social economic climate that we're living in and that's impacting and I would also want to stress that what I wouldn't want is that this becomes the blaming of an individual social worker in the same way that you're asking and it's been noted that this is a national problem. It is a national problem and the sharing of information, not having enough foster carers, not having enough social workers is a national problem and it needs to be addressed as such and I think those initiatives are all good but what happens is that we get initiatives

for two, three, four, maybe five years and then they get pulled and then we're going back to the same practices because resources have been pulled away. Thank you so much, very good to have you on the program Dr Arlene Weeks and Jane Collins, we appreciate you coming in to talk about this important subject. Almost 30 years after her untimely death, the late Diana, Princess of Wales, continues to be a source of fascination. Last month, for example, Beverly Hills hosted the largest ever auction of Diana's clothes and, closer to home, a humble white lab coat that she wore on a factory visit. The day her separation from the then Prince Charles was

announced is due to go under the hammer in Newcastle tomorrow. One of the workers had treasured it unwashed in a wardrobe for 30 years. A new unconventional biography, Diana World and Obsession documents such tales of everyday devotion to Diana by ordinary people and joining me in the studio now to discuss Diana's cultural legacy are the books author Edward White and the broadcaster and author Yasmin Ali by Brown who has written about Diana in countless columns and in her 2020 book Ladies Who Punch 50 trailblazing women whose stories should whose stories you should know. I'm just watching Yasmin, poor Yasmin, she's just shrunk on her chair because it's just gone down.

And I'm short anyway. Don't worry, we'll still be able to have a conversation. I'll turn to Edward first whilst we get your height brought up. Edward, welcome to Woman's Hour. You set out in the book to paint a portrait of those you call the princesses' people. Explain why. The book really is less about Diana and more about the people that were in her orbit and had some kind of obsession with her. So it's attempting to answer the question of why it was that so many millions of people from right across the world with very different backgrounds, very different identities, were all so interested to the point of obsession

with this one young woman. by um obsession I'm not just talking there about people who adored her there's a huge number of people who are kind of conflicted and confused about her and a smaller number of people who genuinely loathed her and sort of kind of saw in her um I don't know a personification of sort of social decline or in some ways or moral decay you know this it's the, she was the worst thing to happen to the monarchy, et cetera, et cetera. And so this whole kind of world of interest and obsession is what I call Diana World.

And it's full of some extraordinary and very, very diverse groups of people. And how do you go about collecting all this information considering you are tracking a vast range of different people? Yeah, well, I initially, I had the idea of trying to write a book about Diana, which I wouldn't mention anybody with a title or anybody was famous. That's a challenge.

Yeah, that lasted about 20 minutes, the idea, but I did try and keep the idea in my head of that as being some kind of ideal thing to do. I'm sort of indebted really to the British Library a lot. They've got extraordinary archives of oral histories and what have you and because of Diana died in late 97 it coincided at the same time with a lot of oral history projects starting up because the Millennium was approaching and so there's actually an awful lot of people from very different backgrounds who have been interviewed and talked about Diana. I used Special Interest press, the gay press. There's a

South Asian newspaper, Eastern Eye, that was very informative. I trawled the archives of local newspapers. There's all kinds of other things. The Great Diary Project, Bishop's Gate Institute, which is terrific, and also the Mass Observation, which is always a good resource. So I try to cast my net as wide as I possibly could. Yes Min, let's bring you into the conversation. Where were you when you heard the news that she had died? Oh, it's unforgettable. Almost everybody will be able to answer this question, I think, who was alive then. But we came back from Canada and we got into a cab at Heathrow

Airport and a breezily said, so what's been happening in England? And the Pakistani driver howled. He just broke down. I'd never seen anything like it. He couldn't tell me why I was crying for quite a long time. Then he told us that Diana had died and you know this big burly beardy chap crying was quite a moment. And it deeply impacted your family as well in particular your mother. My mother, my mother loved her. I am a Republican, I want the whole system to go but there was something about this woman that touched me, and I think Edward says that even Republicans were touched by her. And I was one of them.

But for my mother, she was a heroine from a Bollywood tragedy, you know, forced into marriage or made to marry, bad in laws, faithless husband, you know, the stuff that she loved. And she really grieved and grieved for her in a completely remarked, if she was an uneducated woman, something about her touched. You wrote at the time of her death that London's Southall Park lit up by candles and chanting prayers by Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims. Here they could be free to own their bit of the princess and what she meant to them. What does she mean to those communities?

Well, it wasn't just them. Like Edward's book says, it's gay people. I went to Kensington Palace and it was remarkable. The range of people, big black men sobbing, women with hijab all praying, slowny women in pearls, you know, kind of, and also the messages, they were so seditious. It's the first sign I saw, I thought, oh my goodness, republicanism has arrived. They were so angry that the Queen hadn't come down, that she'd been denied. I mean, these things don't matter to me, that her title had been taken away and that she'd been used basically, they thought, and I think that too, by Charles just to breathe the airs but it was extraordinary. Edward in your opinion and from your research what is it that this wide cross-section of people in

Britain saw in Diana? I think there's at the root of it that she is she's presented immediately when she comes into the public eye in 1980-81 as kind of the ultimate insider-outsider that she is she the public eye in 1980-81, as kind of the ultimate insider-outsider, that she is simultaneously projected in a lot of the newspaper coverage as being, you know, she's our future Queen and also that she's come from this particular aristocratic family that's going, that descends from five different lines from the Stuart dynasty. So she's going to restore the royal family back to its traditional British greatness. Yet at the same time, she's also presented as this sort of Cinderella figure, who's

the girl next door who's been plucked from the crowd, won the golden ticket, and she's going to marry a handsome prince, etc. etc. And those are two completely different ideas about the same person. And I think this carries on with Diana, this idea that she contains her own opposite, basically. It carries on over and over again throughout her life. And it enables people to look at her and see that she's both, she's one of them, but she's also one of us. And there's this really complex duality.

And it leads sometimes to there being iterations of Diana that are totally contradictory to other people's Diana, but everybody can have their own Diana basically. Everybody could have a bit of her and she broke down those class barriers. Yasmin, a very similar question to you because you've written about Diana's many avatars. Yes, so I remember if I may go back to my, so she, I wrote this in my essay in this book, an imaginary friend, a true friend, an unroyal royal, a fantasy figure, a sexy celeb, a secret benefactor, she used to go secretly.

She went to the home of a Pakistani woman I know who ran a small charity in the middle of the night so nobody saw her. She used to go to Centerpoint. So this idea that she was kind of constantly using the media to project herself, she often did these things, dazzling socialite and international ambassador and funny ways, especially for AIDS victims and others, a kind of healer, which, you know, she was quite an astonishing... There's never been anybody like that, never will be.

But what you can't take away is how damaged she was. From the time she was born, her father hated it that a girl was born. Again, Bollywood. And then all the way through, she knows Charles is in love with somebody else but she has to marry because it's too late and the whole thing was so tragic and she was so and the way that the Royals treated her and treated themselves I mean they're that kind you know. And these are conversations that have long been in the public eye for many many years since her death. Edward, the word icon it's an overused term these days many might say

but do you think Diana qualifies as a cultural icon in this day and age? Undoubtedly yeah I mean I think whatever whatever your opinion of her her significance can't be denied really as a cultural figure and if you think about the word icon there's essentially two kind of different definitions. There's the one that we use day to day, which means somebody who sort of represents something bigger than themselves is emblematic of a time or place. And that's definitely Diana. There's also though, that you can think of her as being, fitting into the tradition of the original word of the eye, of the word icon, of fitting into the tradition of the original word of the eye, of the word icon, which is, you know, she's kind of, she's depicted as a mythological figure in lots of different,

and as a saintly figure, in lots of different works of art. In the book I talk about the work of André Durand, who's a Canadian painter, and he explicitly depicts sometimes as a figure from Roman mythology and Greek mythology mythology but she's also this kind of saintly figure who's surrounded by Saint Sebastian and Saint Catherine going into the Middlesex Hospital and there's lots of other kind of works of usually outsider art which also taps into this same thing so she is displayed I would argue as actually an iconic figure in the in the literal original sense. Thank you both for your thoughts there. That is Yasmin Alibi Brown

and Edward White. Both Yasmin and Edward's books are available now. Thank you both for joining me here in the Women's Hour studio. Thank you to Judith who has emailed to say when you have a child or grandchild with disabilities you look at playgrounds with a different lens and you quickly realize that they have been designed for the very fortunate children who can walk, climb and sit independently. We are left with the awful choice of taking one grandchild who can access everything whilst the other has to sit and watch. Thank you Judith for emailing in that conversation about how accessible playgrounds

are that will continue over on our social media pages. Please do keep the conversation going there and do join us tomorrow when we'll be speaking to the American country music singer and songwriter Kam. She'll be here to talk about her latest music and she'll be live in the studio. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm David Runciman and from BBC Radio 4 this is Postwar. From the cradle to the grave they said. 80 years on we're telling the story of the 1945 election and the creation of Postwar Britain. There must be a revolution in our way of living.

This is the Britain that many of us grew up in and which still shapes an idea of who we think we are. Even Winston Churchill thrown it. Alright, you may have won the war, but you're going to win the peace. Post-war with me, David Rumsman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Can we have the Britain we desire?