Woman's Hour - Christmas Day on Joy

Episode Date: December 25, 2020

Christmas Day programme about Joy. Jane Garvey is joined by the Rev. Kate Bottley, who brings the Christian perspective of joy at Christmas, and talks about her personal passion for ice water swimming. Natalie Maddix is the founder and Creative Director of the House Gospel Choir. She describes the joy of communal singing and shares some of the choir's uplifting music. The breast surgeon and breast cancer survivor, Liz O'Riordan, tells us the story behind her 'Jar of Joy'. The crime writer Sophie Hannah explains her theory of finding joy - even in the most adverse of circumstances. Tonia Buxton is a chef and consultant at the Real Greek Restaurants. She gives details of her family's ‘dirty’ Christmas sandwiches and her family recipes for Greek Liver stuffing. Woman's Hour listener Joy Barnard tells her story of being adopted at Christmas in 1961, and Lynette and Daisy reveal what brings them personal joy.Presented by Jane Garvey Producer: Louise CorleyRECIPESGreek Christmas Liver StuffingIngredients 50g/2oz butter 1 onion finely chopped livers from your turkey finely chopped ( I like to add another pack of 200g ) ½ cup/ 75g/3oz long grain white rice rinsed ½ tsp ground cinnamon ¼ tsp ground cloves ½ cup/ 75g/3oz of sultanas. ½ cup/ 75g/3oz of pine kernels 1 ½ cups/275ml/ 10fl oz water sea salt & coarsely ground black pepperMethod In a frying pan add the butter & fry the onion until softened. Add the liver & continue to fry till browned. Then add the spices, seasoning, pine kernels & sultanas & rice. Stir in the water & bring to the boil. Cover with a lid & simmer for 10/12 minutes. You can either stuff the bird or put it in a shallow casserole dish, cover with foil & warm before serving. Melomakarona Greek Christmas biscuits This wonderful recipe is one I have taken (with permission ) from my friend Asimakis Chaniotis who is the most exciting young Greek Chef who has a Michelin star as well as many other accolades. He has refined this traditional recipe that is handed down from generation to generation. https://www.asimakischaniotis.co.uka IngredientsFor the syrup 500 g water 800 g granulated sugar 150 g honey 3 stick(s) cinnamon 3 cloves 1 orange, cut in half 1st mixture400 g orange juice 400 g seed oil 180 g olive oil 50 g icing sugar 1/2 teaspoon(s) cloves 2-3 teaspoon(s) cinnamon 1/4 teaspoon(s) nutmeg 1 teaspoon(s) baking soda orange zest, of 2 oranges 2nd mixture 1 kg all-purpose flour 200 g semolina, fine Method For the syrup : Boil all the ingredients apart from the honey until the sugar melts and let it to be cold for 3-4 hours Preheat the oven 190 In one big bowl mix with a hand whisk all the ingredients from the 1st mixture In a separate bowl mix the ingredients from the 2nd mixture Combine the 1st bowl to the 2nd and mix by hand gently Bake them for 20-25’ Soak the hot cookies to the cold syrup Let them drain on a wire rack Drizzle with honey (optional ) and walnuts

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I know you just want to hear your show, but this won't take long. I'm Miles, the producer of Radio 4's Tricky Podcast. And it works like this. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about because sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's okay

to be against it but not to you know shame someone because of their profession across the series we'll hear anger shock and even the odd laugh another thing that really gets to me is when people say I know what we need to do. I know what black people... Shut up. You don't, like, that's the thing. That's not how it works. Nobody knows.

If you knew, you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this by searching Tricky on BBC Sounds. Hi, this is Jane Garvey, and welcome to Christmas Day's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and a very, very happy Christmas from all of us on Woman's Hour. And it's worth saying, of course, at the beginning of the programme, this might not be the Christmas Day you'd been hoping for.

It might be a Christmas Day like you've never had before, but hopefully over the next 45 minutes or so, we can provide you with some seasonal company. We've got some fantastic guests and the mood of the programme is one of joy this morning. Christmas Day 2020. We've got music, we've got food, we've got friendship, family, we've got listeners' tales, we've got a listener called Joy, because the subject of this programme is joy. And although you can't join in live with us on social media, if you are enjoying the programme,

you can always say so in public at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. Let us know. And you can email the programme as ever via the website. But take it from us, we really do wish you a very, very happy Christmas. And I just want everyone to understand that we know that you've all had a tough time over the last year. So we're thinking of you at this time

and hope that you'll get a little bit of joy out of this edition of our programme. Let's start, because we have to start, with a reverend. And we've got an official reverend, the Reverend Kate Botley, her of Gogglebox. Now, I'm told, a supply vicar. A supply vicar? Kate, what does that mean?

Well, it means I get to do the nice bit. It means I get to show up and show off and ship out. You know, just like your supply teacher when you were at school who would come in and cause chaos and then leave. It's a bit like that, really. I don't have to mark any of the homework or anything. No, what it is, is I'm a sort of associate minister these days. So I don't look after a parish as such of my own, but I help out.

When fellow clergy are off or ill, or when they're extra busy, which, of course, lots of them have been over the last few months, I sidle up and help out. You sidle up, okay. Well, look, happy Christmas. Happy Christmas to you, my darling. And what, how do we sum all this up really, Kate? I mean, if anyone had told me this time last year,

when I thought I was frazzled, that I'd be where I am now this year, I wouldn't have believed it. No, me either. I mean, what an absolutely crazy year. I mean, it's exhausting, right? I mean, the first lockdown when we were sort of sat at home and there's not very much to do except worry was just exhausting, absolutely exhausting.

And then, of course, for me in my line of work, the funerals started coming in and managing all that and coping with all that was something I never thought when I started my life as an ordained woman that that would be something we'd have to face. And it's the absence of touch and of consolation as well isn't it? It sounds a strange thing to say but in my calling in my vocation there are some funerals that are easier than others that's not quite the right turn of phrase but when you do a funeral for a 95 year old who's lived a good and happy and long life and has died with all their

family around them by and large those funerals as a vicar you don't sort of you don't chew them over too much of course it's sad of course it's difficult but even those funerals this year even the funerals of people that we know were coming towards the end of their lives and and had lived a good life even those funerals were uncharacteristically difficult and it was because of the touch I found that so much of what I do I that I didn't realize that that's how I do it is through contact with people physical contact so just for an example um I had a gentleman who was bereaved during lockdown his wife hadn't died of covid and she had a good and long and happy happy life and they'd had a

lovely marriage and i went around to see him well i didn't go around to see him that was the whole point is what would normally happen would be i would go around and see him and sit in his front room and have a cup of tea and look at the photographs on the mantelpiece and do all those things. So that then by the time we get to the funeral itself and he gets out of the car, we've already got that relationship. We've already built up something together so that I'm able to hold his, give his hand that squeeze

or put my hand on the small of his back as I lead him through his wife's funeral. But of course, this year, the funeral visits were done over the phone. We weren't able to go into people's homes in the same way that we usually would and so for this particular gentleman I had to turn to the funeral director as the car pulled up and go which one is he because we'd only spoken over the phone together and so that connection wasn't there and then at the end of the service as he was leaving the chapel to not shake someone's hand you know and

I am it won't come as a surprise to tell you that I'm a bit of a hugger and to not be able to do that I had one mum who had to FaceTime her daughter's coffin which was just it's not it's not right it's not the way I was trained to do my job and it's not the way things should be so that's been the biggest challenge of the last few months in terms of my ministry wow i mean a heck of a challenge as you describe it there the theme of today's program christmas day's program uh joy the christmas trees and the christmas deccies they went up very early this year it was like people were grasping for the joy of the time of year earlier than normal did you sense that oh yeah I was one of them. I mean, I'm normally sort of not until the 20th,

preferably Christmas Eve is when I like to put my Christmas tree up, but I went 2nd of December when we went this year. Yeah, absolutely. The crib scene couldn't come out quick enough. The glitter couldn't come out quick enough. Partly it was about, you know, making things look sparkly and beautiful and all that sort of stuff, but it was also partly about we know that once these decorations do go up it's coming to the end of the year and we feel like we can put it behind us and move on a little bit yeah so

there was definitely that feeling about it but even in all this sadness there is still joy to be found there is still because for me joy isn't isn't the tinsel it isn't the glitter although that helps obviously um joy is something that even in the darkest and most difficult of times can still be present. It's that chink of light. It is the hope for something better and hope for something that will be revealed in time. So I think there's joy still to be found even in the darkness. People will be enjoying you, Kate, hugely, but they might be wondering, is Jane just going to talk to Kate Botley for the whole of this Christmas? No not quite because I'll come back to you in a sec but we've also got Natalie Maddox here the creative director and founder of the

House Gospel Choir. We've got Liz O'Riordan who was a breast cancer surgeon had breast cancer herself she's going to tell us about her jar of joy. We've got our listener, Joy. We've got listener stories of joy. Sophie Hanna, the best-selling crime author, is with us. And we've got Tonya Buxton from The Real Greek, who's going to explore the joy of food, which is all part of Christmas as well. We can't forget, because it's at the very centre of everything that's happening today, is the joy of the Christmas story, Kate.

We are celebrating the birth of a baby. Yes, from my perspective perspective of quite remarkable baby under really difficult circumstances and a baby that came to show love and joy and light and hope and all those things and whatever your faith tradition or not the thing that we take from this this story that we celebrate this time of year is the story of hope the light shining in the darkness. That's the opening bit of John's Gospel, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness can never overcome it. And I feel like I should be having that written across my T-shirt, tattooed on my arms, you know, put everywhere because it's a sort of universal hope, isn't it? That the darkness can never overcome the light.

Let's bring in Natalie Maddox, founder and creative director of the House Gospel Choir. Natalie, I'm guessing you were a churchgoer, still are? Yes, I was every Sunday since I was a small child. Now I'm on a bit of a church tour. I tend to go to church with different friends when I feel like I need that bit of community and just to kind of touch base with some of the ideas I was originally taught. Yeah. Yeah. So you're still, it sounds as though you just pick and choose, frankly, where you go. I do. I do. Because I don't know. And I think it's really important to do that. Yeah, I think it's really important to be in conversation about your faith more than anything. So I really enjoy travelling around and seeing how other people feel and what they think and how they kind of live in this world and how they've gotten through this year.

Yeah, well, quite. How have you got through it? Goodness me. Singing on Zoom with the choir because obviously we we usually meet every monday for the last six years we've done that so it's been really difficult we have 150 members so it's been very very difficult not being together especially for like the festival season and things like that so we found different ways to just keep singing using bits of technology including this brand new app that I had to figure out this year called acapella there's an app called acapella there's a there's an app called acapella right and we essentially all um record our parts and our musical director puts it

all together and we've been putting these videos out every Sunday pretty much certainly for the first lockdown and just a bit more sporadically during the second lockdown but it's been it's been our way of staying connected I've got to ask because I my mind is totally boggled by I mean I've been I've been to a few women's hour zooms in my life my I'll never get those well by now weeks of my life back um you know you know when the whole screen is just full of faces yes surely you can't do that with your entire choir, can you? You can't. No, the latency in Zoom, unfortunately, the technology isn't there to sing all together,

but our choir director has quite a sophisticated setup, so we get to hear him loud and clear. And, yeah, and then you see everyone else singing along, so it kind of feels like you're in the room together. And there is, of course, shoehorning the theme of today's programme into this conversation, there is a joy in singing, together and there is of course um shoehorning the theme uh of today's program into this conversation there is a joy in singing isn't there natalie of course there is it's essential that you sing i mean not everybody is supposed to be on stage singing i think we know

that but um everyone should sing i i advocate this fully i think it's like just part of my mental health requirements uh on a day-to-day basis I just have a little thing by myself and getting to do it professionally obviously is a complete blessing but we have our wider community we've started to do classes on Instagram every Monday as well so we just tried to stay connected as much as possible and I know that you obviously you've got a great voice but as a as a younger person you tried to make it as a solo singer but just found the whole thing just too isolating is that right it's yeah it's just not it's not very nice I don't know I really I have so much respect and appreciate

how much work goes into being a solo artist it's just not my bag I love I just love singing with people singing by yourself can be completely satisfying. Singing with a group of people is just, there's nothing like it. No, okay. Well, I think at this point we're going to ask you to introduce a track. Well, it's a cover of the Sabrina Johnson song, Peace in the Valley. Now tell us about this. It's a song that we learned specifically.

A few years ago we did a show for BBC Gospel Christmas and we created this version and actually we've we've recorded it specifically for your listeners today so we went into the studio a couple of weeks ago and did this one just for you guys so it's completely exclusive and it's our version of peace in the valley Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Peace in the valley Peace in the city Peace in your soul

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Peace in the valley Peace in the city Peace in your soul Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Natalie, that was brilliant. Thank you all so much. That was the House Gospel Choir singing Peace in the Valley.

Natalie, I think at one time you turned your home into a studio during lockdown. I have, yeah. No, it's still a studio, actually. I got rid of my bed. I sleep at my sister's house. Is this serious? Oh, no, it's very serious. But how does your sister feel about it?

She's fine. She loves me. That's the official line anyway. Yes, it's very serious. But how does your sister feel about it? She's fine. She loves me. That's the official line anyway. Yes, it is. It is. But, yeah, no, I got some decks. I've been learning to DJ. I've got my recording equipment all set up.

It's too late for me. We've been doing live streams from here as well on social media just to kind of keep everyone motivated and going. And it's the best decision I made actually funnily enough because it's it's been a pretty tough year but I've I've had and managed to create so many amazing moments with people from all over the world that it's just kind of focused me on getting the music out there and just keep spreading the good news. Well you've certainly succeeded in getting the music out there thank you Natalie. I wonder whether we could bring Liz Reardon in now

consultant breast surgeon and then well irony I suppose is what we're talking about here you then got breast cancer Liz. Yes I did that was five years ago the first time and then it came back a couple of years later as a local recurrence and that meant I had to retire as a surgeon. Because what happened to you? I'd got a lot of left shoulder stiffness and pain. And I couldn't move my arm properly. So it wasn't safe for me to operate. And I think psychologically, dealing with breast cancer patients,

having had it twice, was going to be really, really hard. I wanted to ask you about that. Because you can obviously never, ever get away from it, can you? No. I knew too much. And even as a patient, I knew what my chance of recurrence might be before my husband and my parents did. And it was really hard trying to just be a patient. Yeah, and I suddenly had to redefine myself

because I spent 20 years describing myself as a surgeon and then suddenly I'm 43 and I think, who am I? What am I going to do with my life? It was really hard. Very young, actually, 43, to reach that stage in your life when you realised you couldn't be the person you thought you were anymore through no fault of your own. Exactly.

And I think it made me realise that, God, life as a surgeon can be so boring because I spent all my life training. I had no hobbies. I did nothing for fun. It was work, eat, sleep, revise, do night shifts. And I suddenly had the time to join a choir and to walk the dog and to start cycling and getting into sport properly and start knitting and sewing and all the stuff I'd always thought I'll do when I'm retired. And it gave me a whole new lease of life and a different way of helping people by writing and talking and sharing my experiences. And I think in in lockdown it's been amazing to talk to people all over the world virtually

instead of relying on people to come to conferences and it's been lovely to get that feedback. And we're going on to talk to Sophie Hanna about how you can attempt to change attitudes to adversity but the way you dealt with your cancer might you have expected that of yourself or did you surprise yourself actually? I surprised myself hugely I have no idea where the woman I am now came from I was very shy and introverted and it all started

You're a right chatterbox now I know it all started because of Twitter I used to tweet about triathlons and baking by doing all the sport I could eat all the cake and I thought I can't not talk about breast cancer for nine months I wasn't going to wear a wig people would recognise me having

chemo so I thought right and my husband and I pressed the button to send a tweet saying I'm coming out I've got breast cancer and my life changed forever I was flooded with support from other patients who told me how to cope and that led to me helping people through blogging and writing and now I've just got this whole new passion to help improve the quality of care for cancer patients. And at what point did you come up with this jar of joy concept? That was New Year's Eve 2016. So the 23rd of December 2015, I'd had my surgery, I'd had my mastectomy, and I was expecting it to be good news because my scans had shown chemo had melted my cancer away.

But I found out there was actually 13 centimeters of cancer left and it had spread to my lymph nodes and as a surgeon I knew how bad that could be and it was just before Christmas and my mum said right I'm going to let you wallow for a week but after that you need to pull your backside out of a sling you can't be miserable forever and I told your mother in the forces no she was a nurse right okay but it's like you know you you need your mum to give you a strict talking to, you know, to say, for goodness sake, I need to give you some tough love. Come on now. You can't just smoke forever. And she was right.

And I'd heard about gratitude journals where you write every day. But that just seemed like too much hard work. And I saw an empty vase, a bit like a goldfish bowl. I thought, right. Every time something good happens, I'm going to put it on a card and put it in the jar and it's visual so my husband found a fiver in a pair of trousers he hadn't worn for a year that went in and then he let our puppy sleep on the sofa and that went in but where does the puppy normally sleep the puppy used to sleep in the kitchen in his crate and then I thought I've had to retire I've had cancer I want the dog on the sofa for a

cuddle and I don't do it every day. What's the dog called? Dog called Hunter. He's a brown and white cocker spaniel. And because it's not every day and it's visual, whenever I walk past it in the kitchen, it just makes me smile. I hear bad news when other friends died of cancer or when my husband went into hospital with COVID. But I look at it and I think there are good things that happen. And for me, it's nature.

It's seeing a hedgehog in the garden at night or it's just hearing the birds singing. Just not taking it for granted. You've become a little bit seeing a hedgehog in the garden at night or it's just hearing the birds singing. Just not taking it for granted. You've become a little bit of a hedgehog botherer, haven't you? I have. I love them. Yes. Well, what are you doing for them? So I found a small baby hedgehog out in the day and took it to my local shelter. And it's run by an amazing couple called Anne and Chris in their 70s who look after over 100 hedgehogs.

And in the summer when the babies come in, need feeding every two hours day and night so once a week I go and help out I muck out all the hedgehogs who like to poo in their food and their water and I clean them and I get to take the odd selfie for twitter if you're preparing christmas lunch I hope sorry about that do carry on but they are endangered and it's lovely to know that I can help look after them and then I release them into my garden when they wait when they weigh enough I didn't know that about hedgehogs and now it's something I can't unknow which makes me frankly less keen on them if I'm honest but you put the case for hedgehogs having told us that filthy thing they do put the case for them please. We need them they're a vital part of garden life.

Make sure you have a hole in your fence so they can crawl and put kitten food and biscuits and water out for them every day. We can't let them disappear. No. Okay. Thank you. We mustn't let them disappear. Happy Christmas, by the way. You are listening to the Christmas Day Woman's Hour and in conversation this morning we have the Reverend Kate Botley.

You've just heard Liz O'Riordan. We've got Natalie Maddox on the programme as well. We're about to talk to a listener called Joy. Sophie Hanna, the best-selling crime author, is with us.

And we'll talk to Tonya Buxton. Say hello, Tonya. Hello. Happy Christmas. Happy Christmas. I'm having a fun time listening to these stories.

You're learning a thing or two, not least about hedgehogs. Tonya Buxton is the chef and consultant at The Real Greek, a chain of restaurants, of course. And we've got other listeners waiting to talk to us too daisy and lynette um let's go actually to our listener called joy joy happy christmas to you happy christmas um wonderful to have you on the program now tell us why you're called joy it's such a sweet story, this. Well, it's what my family always called the other Christmas story,

and it goes back to 1961. My parents had been married for about ten years by that time, and they realised that they probably were never going to be able to have a baby of their own. And they started the adoption process in early 1961. But my mother's father became quite ill, and sadly he eventually died in November of that year and as they were heading towards Christmas they weren't in the best place really it was all

kind of sad time lonely time and then on the morning of the 23rd of December my mum was at home icing her Christmas cake I think in fact when the phone went and it was a social worker saying that suddenly that a baby had become available if they were able to to go and pick it up that day it was a bit like a Christmas turkey really have it now or it goes to somebody else so my mum said immediately yes of course we will we will be there and put the phone down and then suddenly thought through the ramifications of this. First of all my dad was at work and he had no idea that he might come home and find that there was an extra member of the family so she had to try and track him down. They didn't have

a car at that time either so there was just the practicalities of getting the 15 miles to the hospital where this baby was and getting it back home again. And the third thing was that they had absolutely no warning at all. So they had no baby stuff at all, not a pram, not a cot, not a nappy, not a set of clothes. But a couple of phone calls later and the problem was resolved and friends came and took them into Glasgow to find the baby. And I was there, cot number five, five days old on the 23rd of December. And the minister, the local minister with him, they were very friendly. He and his wife scurried round about and managed to pull together

all the things that babies need when they come home from hospital for the first time. So by tea time on the 23rd of December in in 1961 they had a baby a brand new baby so i think it was inevitable that i was going to have a seasonal name of some sort question was what would that seasonal name be and um during christmas eve the choices were kind of whittled down to carol or carol ann actually i think think and Joy and there was much discussion about that and ultimately Joy won the day because at that time my dad was apparently quite partial to a chocolate biscuit which went by the name of Joy. I see I was wondering where that was going. Somewhere there is a photograph taken on Christmas Day in a friend's house with my dad

standing holding me in front of a round mirror and somebody had put a halo of joy wrappers around the mirror so it's kind of like an alternative nativity scene of that. Good job he didn't like hobnobs isn't it? Exactly exactly yeah it could have been much worse. And did that cake ever get iced, by the way? I think it probably did. I mean, my mum was not somebody to be thrown by unexpected consequences. By a mere baby. Yeah, exactly. Everything went on just as normal.

I mean, she was planning on going, she was seeing a solo in the Messiah, a production of the Messiah on Christmas Eve, and she went and did it and left me with my brand new dad. And Christmas Day went on pretty much as normal, just with this extra little person there. Are your mum and dad around still?

No, sadly, they're both dead now. My mother died just before Christmas last year. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, she would have been very tickled to hear this on the radio on Christmas Day. She might, you know, sometimes we can believe in magic today of all days. She might know. Well, maybe they get Radio 4. Yes.

Well, if they get anything, it'll be Radio 4. I can't remember if you can say you get Radio 4 in heaven. Yeah, I think they won't get Radio 2, that's for sure. Oh. Go and get the milk. Joy, thank you so much. And have a lovely, lovely day today. Take care. And you. Thank you. All the very best.

That's listener Joy Barnard with that fantastic story about being a Christmas joy. I'm sorry, I did sound carpy there, Kate. I don't I don't I don't mean it. No, you're right. I'm madly jealous. Madly. Let's talk to the crime writer Sophie Hannah because you are an author you've written all sorts of crime books you're also the author of happiness a mystery and 66 attempts to solve it

right Sophie I put it to you that this has been the most miserable year of all our lives yes well that is I'm so glad you started that question that's how I mean to go on because that is actually a discussion that I have been having with friends and family and in fact we we um we had a whole sort of family conference on it almost it was supposed to be a nice friendly chat but it turned into a vigorous

discussion because lots of people were saying 2020 what a complete git of a year yes what an awful year what a terrible year and I said this is really interesting because are you saying I have had a terrible time or many people have had a terrible time in 2020 and they said well yes of course that's what we're saying I was like okay well that is clearly true right I mean I don't think anyone would argue that 2020 has not been an extremely difficult and painful year for many people. But because I'm a bit sort of pedantic and keen on my accurate definitions, I then said, but look, that's a different thing from saying that 2020 is innately in and of itself a terrible year and to me those are two very different things i've got my i've got my skeptical face on here so go on good good no no good because i you know

i i don't in any way expect you to just sort of go oh okay i agree and i like i get what people mean when they say you know 2020 what an absolute rotter of a year, as though it's a property of the year. But there is a way of looking at it where we could say to ourselves, even if we personally have had many awful experiences in it, I mean, let's not pick on 2020, let's think of any year. So let's say we personally have some really, really painful and horrible experiences in a year. The way I like to think of it is, and I do actually also believe that this is an accurate way to think about it, a year is just a sort of human invented unit of time. It's just like basically some time. And within that space of time that we're calling by the name of that year

what's actually true is that some terrible things happen some amazing things happen there is pain there is joy and obviously individual people feel that pain and joy to different extents and in different amounts but I personally always kind of rebel against it in my mind when I hear someone saying something about a year as if the year in itself is bad because I think to myself if I believe that 2020 is somehow innately bad or tarnished or unlucky then how much more unlikely am I to experience joy in 2020 whereas if I think any, no matter what's happened in it already, any year contains joy, pain, and a mixture of things, then I'm likely to think and joy is possible even in 2020. And then I'm more likely to create that joy and make it happen.

I believe that even if you've had a year, which is terrible for you right up until like the 24th of december i personally always think okay well what great thing might happen on the 25th of december or what amazing thing might happen you could go out in the garden and find one of liz's little hedgehogs and you might want to rehome it yes oh you're right all sorts of good stuff could happen i gather if you're looking for joy so for your your joyful thing of choice is, is it swimming in the sea in extremely cold temperatures? It's any kind of swimming. So I love swimming in warm water as well. I'm not one of those kind of committed wild swimmers who would rather crack open the ice and plunge into a freezing expanse of water. I do love swimming in cold rivers.

I love swimming in the sea when it's quite chilly. Not like freezing, but quite chilly. I also, though, love swimming in lovely heated indoor pools. And so the key thing is really for me just swimming. Swimming, got it. I absolutely love it. Now, who else in my headphones was going on about swimming? Was that you, Kate?

Me. I'm a cold water swimmer. I'm an ice smasher. Me too. Minus three, I've managed the coldest in the last wow wow i i actually sit in an ice freezer every morning sorry hang on a sec this is tonya buxton talking now you go in an ice freezer every morning you say you were perimenopausal earlier ice freezer literally i sit in it for three and a half minutes every morning. And what does that do? Just makes you happy to be alive. You do look amazing. Thank you. She does.

She's 94. She looks great. Okay, and Kate, minus three, sorry, I think I missed you telling us where that was. So I am a cold water swimmer. In 2019, I did 365 outdoor swims. So I swam outside on average every day. And the coldest I did was minus three

that was at Barbara Reservoir in the Peak District and we took ice hammers smashed the ice to get in just in our swimming costumes

well we had our swimming costumes on for a bit and then we didn't have our swimming costumes on if you get what I mean well I do get I'm not that sick

I do get what you mean okay Natalie fancy that at all? No, thank you. No. I quite like swimming. I like floating in, like, Caribbean waters,

not the smashing ice for me. Yes, I think I'm more of a Caribbean person and less of an ice smasher, so I'm with you there. Let's talk joy and joy specifically from a couple of listeners who've been kind enough to join us. Let's talk to Lynette. I find joy in lots of small things, just listening to your other speakers. It's not a continuous thing, it's just occasional. But it ranges from the mundane everyday events to the more possibly occasional transcendental ones.

And for me, the more sublime ones usually involve music. And I'm hearkening back down to Christmas Eve last year yes and as usual I had planned to stop for a cup of tea and a mince pie during the business of Christmas preparations in the kitchen and during that time I usually listen to the carol service from King's College Cambridge yes but last year was different for us because we had our grandson, our first grandson and first grandchild indeed. And he was lying on my lap and he was a bit fretful and fidgety and not settling at all well during the first part of the service. But a change occurred during the choral anthem. As the men's voices grew and their resounding tones anchored and alternated with the treble voices, my grandson became still and calm, and with a momentary arch of his eyebrows and a slightly fleeting smile, he settled into a deep slumber.

Now, although this was probably due to the subsidence of wind, it was as if I had witnessed a fluttering of his soul. And to me, his doting grandmother, he resembled a cherub in a Renaissance painting just at that moment. Oh, what's his name, Lynette? It's Xander, and he's just an absolute joy. Oh, you can hear it in your voice, the joy you find in him. So, Lynette, thank you very much for sharing that. That's lovely. Take care and have a lovely day.

And we can talk to Daisy as well. Hi, Daisy. Happy Christmas to you. Hi, Jane. Merry Christmas. Now, tell us, this is a lovely story about, well, it's about family. So tell us your tale. Yeah.

So for me, the thing that I've chosen that brings me joy is knitting. I'm 24 years old. It was my grandma, Pauline Burgess. She taught me how to knit when I was nine. I remember just sort of watching her sitting on the sofa with her needles and her wool and asking her what on earth she was doing. And so I asked her and she showed me what it was she was doing and taught me how to do the stitches. And yeah, I've not looked back since. Since then, I've gone on to knit all sorts of things, really. And was it a help in lockdown, this skill?

Oh massively yeah so obviously this year has been really really difficult and one thing that never fails to bring me joy is knitting because when I'm knitting something the outside world just sort of seems to blur itself out and I'm just sort of there with my needles and my wool creating something from scratch but this year knitting took on a bit more of a significant meaning for me because my grandma who taught me how to knit sadly passed away in May so now when I knit it's sort of like a way for me to keep her alive.

You know, I knit and I think of her and that makes me really happy. Yeah. You never forget your grandma, you know. No, no. You know, lockdown, there's been plenty of time for me to while away the hours, especially as I finished my university degree in September. And unfortunately, I'm unemployed. So while I've been looking for a job and just generally trying to keep myself going, the days can really, really stretch by,

especially in the winter. But I find knitting, and especially this time of year, knitting something Christmassy, some decorations for the tree and things like that. It really makes me happy. And it's just something that transports me into a completely different world.

Well, I'm really glad you have got it. Lots of love to you. Have a decent day today, Daisy. Thank you. Thank you, Jane. Thank you. And to you. Take care of yourself.

That was Daisy talking about the joy of knitting in lockdown and that very special link she has with her grandma. Listening to Daisy there talking about missing out on socialising does lead me back to Tonya and the hospitality. God, I used to love a lunch. I've had some good lunches over the years. It brings joy, doesn't it? Just kind of going out, have someone else to cook for you and go and have lovely lunches with your friends and your colleagues. Well, not my colleagues so much.

Kidding. Yeah, it's been hard. It has been hard. And of course, your industry has been incredibly badly hit. But tell us then about food and family for you. So for me, I had a very different lockdown to what a lot of people had. And in one hand, I was incredibly lucky. And on the other hand, you know, you judge yourself.

So I have four children yeah my two elder children's boyfriends moved in with us for the lockdown so that's cooking for eight and then my brother-in-law who was on his own so he moved in as well okay so i was cooking for nine people every single night just shopping i felt i spent my whole life shopping and cooking and not not having a single moment without someone complaining about something how dare they so you know when we say what are we cooking oh I'm eating this tonight well this is what I've managed to shop for well I don't fancy that well I don't care I mean there was a lot of that going on in our house it's a bit I'm Greek so we're very loud um so there was never any quiet. So I had

a kind of maybe a different lockdown to what a lot of people had. It sounds as though you cope with it very adeptly, can I say that? A lot of screaming, a lot of Greek screaming. What do the Greeks traditionally have for Christmas? I don't know. So we would have, it would normally be pork. So before the kind of turkey tradition came over to Greece and Cyprus, it would always be pork that people would kind of turkey tradition came over to greece and cyprus it would always be pork that people would have so i've kind of left the pork bit and i've got the turkey bit but i still keep the very greek stuffing so they make a stuffing with rice

and sultanas and pine nuts and liver um so we've got because i've always got a couple of birds on the go at christmas oh just to interrupt you, these recipes will be on the Woman's Hour website. Oh, good. It wouldn't be Christmas if I couldn't say bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. There you go. It's just something I've got in the contract. Anyway, carry on.

So I've always got a couple of birds on the go, one with the Greek stuffing and one with the sage and onion stuffing. And the reason I do two birds is not because we need more than a single bird for our lunch. It's because what we really enjoy is the disgusting

dirty turkey sandwiches we make at night what's a dirty turkey oh god they're disgusting so you've got your bread and then you've you've got some gammon and you've probably got some chili jam yeah coleslaw you've got the turkey you've got the stuffing you've got some crackling in there and then everybody has a dipping bowl of gravy that then you dip your whole sandwich into and take a bite of i mean they're dirty sandwiches they're messy dirty sandwiches and that's what we love i can hear the reverend making horrible noises in my headphones my husband would love that incredible like the food the leftovers is better than the main absolutely we can all agree that right it's true you've not had to cook it yeah you don't have to cook it and you're a bit tipsy by then

and you're just really going for it. Stud at the counter, banging it into your face. We are talking white bread here, aren't we? We're not talking any of that silly brown. I think Kate and Tonya are both judging other people by their own low standards. It's the banging it into your face expression. I love that.

I'm going to bring in Natalie for for a bit of a bit of sense Natalie any Jamaican influences in what you have at home on Christmas day oh definitely well for us we'd definitely be doing that with pardo bread which is I don't know what the equivalent is but it's just just thick and heavy but it's so good when it's fresh it's really soft and specifically at Christmas and Easter they do it in a big plat so yeah we'd be having leftovers in between some hard-o bread would you dip that into gravy um I kind of opt for the pickle you know I mean my mum had all of her kids here in Britain so she'd try and kind of make things really spicy or Jamaican but we just want it's just like we mix and match a bit more. So yeah, some pickle, some turkey, maybe a bit of cranberry.

Okay. Natalie, it's high time you introduced the second track from your choir, the House Gospel Choir. This song is Most Precious Love and it's one of my favourite songs off the album. Which is called Required. Very good. Yes. It was only just about 10 minutes before the programme started that I got that, by the album. Which is called Required. Very good. Yes. It was only just about 10 minutes before the programme started that I got that, by the way. It's so uplifting and it's a complete

reminder that joy is always required. So I hope you are precious. I do. Put your hands together. Yes. Come on. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Amen. Come on. Let's go. One, two, three. Precious love. Precious love. Precious love.

Precious love. Precious love. Precious love HGC That was Precious Love by the House Gospel Choir from their new album Required. I want to ask Kate just very briefly. Kate, sometimes, I mean, women, I'm going to say this, women in particular can find Christmas very stressful often.

Yes. Because, let's be honest, a lot is expected of women at this time of year. Do you think we all need to have a word with ourselves today and just think, you know what, we've got here. We're still here. Have a drink if drinking is your thing or pour yourself a nettle tea, whatever it might be. And just take a moment and just say, you know what, we're here. We've got something to be thankful for. Thank whoever for that. Yeah. I mean, we've all something to be thankful for absolutely thank whoever for that yeah i mean we've all learned some stuff right over the last few weeks and months one of the

things that i've learned is that actually it is the little things that suddenly become the very big things you know that those little things that matter so being kind to yourself is probably one of the strongest things we can do today and every day thank you all very very much really enjoyed talking to all of you and a very happy Christmas to everybody who's taking part. Thank you, Kate. Thank you, Natalie. Thank you, Liz.

Thank you, Joy and Sophie and Daisy and Lynette and Tonya. Here's to a better year in 2021. Yes, although Sophie fundamentally thinks that this year hasn't... Anyway, let's not revisit that argument. Thank you all very much. Happy Christmas. Just briefly, let's catch up with some of the stuff you brought us on Instagram about what brings you joy.

Let me go through the responses. My children, says one listener. That's very sweet. Claudia says, sending and receiving post. Even at 23, me and friends post letters because it brings so much more joy than social media. Well, I can absolutely understand that. M Spam on Instagram says surfing. Surfing is my thing or riding my electric cargo bike with my kids in instead of taking the car. Then dogs from Susie Suze. Simple enough.

Daltia just likes dancing. A listener called Laudev, a hot bath with the kids not disturbing me. Yeah, a chance to be a fine thing when the kids are young. And Hillary just says family. Another listener just loves the thought of her grandson. I'm sure that's very sweet. And Elizabeth, the smell of a meal cooking in the oven with family to share it with. Yes, absolutely. And to even up the whole gender thing, one listener says,

my daughter is the thing that brings me joy. That's great. Happy Christmas to you. And we do love hearing from you, whether it's on Instagram or Twitter, or you can email us. Joy says, I'm called Joy, and having this name does bring with it an expectation that you'll always be joyous. As a child, I used to dislike my name as all the songs sung at the C of E schools I attended seemed to be about joy and it made me feel so shy and self-conscious.

Stuff like, give me joy, my heart keep me praising and joy doth wait on his command. The irony is I didn't have a good childhood and often felt far from joyous. Maybe having the name made me put on a happy face though. In addition everyone used to assume I was called Joyce which I used to find irritating. I've rarely met another person called Joy. I've spent my life being called Joyous One and Joyful. Yeah, OK, comfort and joy. Yeah, okay, comfort and joy. Absolutely, get that. And this from a listener who says, I have a story about the name Joy. My grandmother, who at the ripe age of 96

has been named Joy since she met her late husband just before the war broke out in the 1930s. My grandfather Cliff renamed Marjorie Joy because of the fact that she brought so much joy to his life. They had a textbook wartime love affair, with Joy writing letters to Cliff every day. He was stationed on a Navy warship and was the head radio controller, taking notes of all communications in code. This was an incredibly dangerous job. At one point, his ship sunk and Joy got a phone call to say Cliff had perished. Her surprise a week later when he called to say he was fine and he'd somehow

survived. I have always known my grandmother as Joy, so that name bears much meaning and warmth in my family. That's from Louise. Thank you, Louise. And that's a lovely story. And thank you for telling us it. And thank you for listening to this Christmas Day edition of Woman's Hour. From all of us here, I can only emphasise that we do honestly wish you a really, really decent Christmas. I appreciate it's going to be a tough one, an unusual one for many of you. But thank you for sticking with Woman's Hour over the course of 2020. And there's much more to come over the coming months.

Take care. Before you go, I'm Miles, the producer of a brand new podcast for Radio 4 called Tricky. This is how it works. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about. Sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's okay to be against it but not to shame someone because of their profession.

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If you knew, you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this by searching Tricky on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year,

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