Woman's Hour - Civil rape case against Conor McGregor, Binge drinking, Chappell Roan

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

The woman who accused the mixed martial arts fighter Conor McGregor of raping her has won her civil case against him. He has been ordered to pay nearly a quater of a million euros in damages. Mr McGregor says he will appeal. Nuala McGovern speaks to Orla O'Donnell who is the RTE News Legal Affairs Correspondent.A BBC Panorama documentary is out today which asks: Why are more young women dying from alcohol-related liver disease than ever before? The BBC’s Hazel Martin, who’s 32, was diagnosed with the condition. She’s been investigating how she became one of a growing number of young women surprised to discover their social drinking habits had put their lives at risk. Hazel joins Nuala as does Professor Debbie Shawcross, Consultant Hepatologist at Kings College Hospital. Journalist Lili Anolik had already written a book about obscure LA writer Eve Babitz when she read a letter Eve had written but not sent to her sometime friend, the literary superstar Joan Didion. Lili realised that the key to understanding Joan was held by Eve and vice versa and she joins Nuala to discuss her new book, Didion and Babitz.A new play at the Royal Court Theatre in London explores the impact of the child sexual exploitation and grooming scandals that took place in Northern and Midlands towns in England in the late 90s to the early 2010s. Emteaz Hussain, the play's writer, joins Nuala to discuss it.US pop star Chappell Roan has made it onto the shortlist for BBC Radio 1’s Sound of 2025. Just a year ago she was a backing singer for Olivia Rodrigo – so what do we know about her? Laura Snapes, deputy music editor at the Guardian, joins Nuala to tell us more.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I hope you had a good weekend. Although it was a stormy and difficult one for many, particularly in Wales. I hope everyone's doing OK. I want to ask you a question in relation to an item we're doing. And this is whether you had a couple of drinks on Friday or Saturday.

Did you binge drink? And I ask this question because you might be surprised to hear that in the UK, a binge is considered drinking six or more units of alcohol in one sitting for women. So that would translate into three medium glasses of wine. My guests today want to raise awareness of potential liver damage by such a binge, what some might consider moderate drinking. So I'd like to hear from you. Have you changed your drinking habits in recent years?

Why? What was behind it? Was it an event or a gradual change? Or have your habits remained similar throughout the years? Do you ever feel pressure to drink at social occasions? That number to call, to text I should say, is 84844. On social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a voice note or a WhatsApp message. The number is 03700 100 444.

Also today we speak about a play that highlights the long-lasting impact of the grooming scandals that took place over 10 years ago in Northern and Midland towns in England. Plus, we will talk about the rise and rise of Chapel Roan, now on the long list

for BBC Radio 1's Sound of 2025. Frenemies, the lives of LA authors Joan Didion and Eve Babbitt. They're detailed in a new book. We're going to hear all about their feuds and their friendship coming up this hour. But let me begin with the woman who accused the mixed martial arts fighter Conor McGregor of raping her as she has won her civil case against him. The jury heard more than eight days of evidence in which Mr. McGregor was accused of assaulting Nikita Hand at a hotel in Dublin in 2018.

He has been ordered to pay close to a quarter of a million euros in damages. He says he will appeal. I'm joined now by Orla O'Donnell, RT News' legal affairs correspondent who was in court during this case. Good to have you with us, Orla. Thank you for joining us. Some may not have been

following this case, although I know it was watched so avidly in Ireland. What can you tell us about what happened? Well, it relates to the events of the weekend of the 8th and 9th of December 2018. And Nikita Hand was a young hairdresser. She was at her Christmas party and they went, they were drinking beforehand. They went to the Christmas party and then they went back to the pub beside the salon and then they went back to the salon with more drink there was drink there was cocaine taken she said and at some point during the evening she had been in contact with Conor McGregor the mixed martial arts fighter via direct messages on Instagram now she

knew him to an extent she's from the same area he knew of her he said and she sent him a photograph he sent a photograph on his story showing where he was she replied with a photograph and he described this in court as a slightly provocative photograph they were in contact and he ended up coming to the hair salon on the morning of the 9th of December in a car with a driver to collect her and her friend Danielle they went off they drove around for a bit, they collected his friend James, and then they went back to a hotel, the Beacon Hotel in Sandiford in South County, Dublin, went up to the penthouse suite.

She says at that stage he started coming on to her, that she didn't want to have sex with him. She knew his family, she knew his partner, and she was also on her period. She said she didn't want to have sex, but she said Conor McGregor wouldn't take no for an answer. She said that he had pinned her down. She said she didn't want to have sex, but she said Conor McGregor wouldn't take no for an answer. She said that he had pinned her down. She said she then bit him. And she said at that stage, he put her in a chokehold three times.

And at that stage, she said she was frightened for her life and she just wanted to do whatever it took to survive. And she said at that stage she was brutally raped by him. Now, she said they went to sleep afterwards, that he said to her, lie down beside me. And she did. And she went to sleep. She said she woke up in a panic and she said eventually then she went home and Conor McGregor and Danielle left. She went back up to the room with his friend James. She spoke about how she had bruises. She was upset and she said she eventually went in a taxi first to her friend's house and then to her boyfriend's house. The following morning, she went to hospital. She was taken to hospital by ambulance where medics discovered she had very severe bruising.

She also had to have a tampon removed from her by a doctor with a forceps. Mr. McGregor, on the other hand, claims they had consensual sex. It was vigorous and athletic, he told the court, but he says he did not rape Nikita Hand. And James Lawrence also denied that. He said he had consensual sex he came forward after Mr McGregor had been questioned by Gordie and said that he had had consensual sex with Nikita Hand on the same night she says she doesn't remember that at all it is and may be very difficult some of the aspects that that you've described there or for our listeners to hear I do want to say that there will be links to support on the BBC's Actionline website as we talk about this particular case.

It was a civil case and not gone through the criminal courts. We very much saw Nikita Hand and the others that were involved in this particular case every day as the court case continues. Why is it so different? Well, it's very unusual to have a rape case played out like this in public in a civil court in Ireland. It doesn't happen, to be quite honest with you. Nikita Hand, the Gardaí had interviewed everybody involved and they were intending to

prosecute. They sent a file to the DPP, the Director of Public Prosecutions in Ireland. But the Director of Public Prosecutions decided not to prosecute. And Nikita Hand told the court she was absolutely devastated by this decision. She actually asked for a review of the decision and the DPP herself, Clare Loftus at the time, reviewed it and again said there was not a reasonable prospect of convicting either of the men now there were a number of factors related to this uh for example the fact that this other man james lawrence had claimed he had consensual sex with nikita hand after she claimed to have been raped by conor mcgregor the amount of alcohol and drugs that had been consumed as well as the cctv footage there was cctv footage from the, from the lift area of the hotel and car

park area in particular. And the DPP was concerned about the contradiction between some of what could be seen on that footage and what Nikita Hand had told Gordie. So again, the DPP came back and said they were not going to prosecute. Nikita Hand suggested that the reason there was no prosecution was because of Mr. McGregor's fame and notoriety and the DPP said that was absolutely not the case. This led then to her taking this civil case against them and a very, very unusual situation where everybody was identified, everybody was named and everybody was giving this very explicit and upsetting evidence in court. And I should say as well the jury found James Lawrence did not assault Nikita Hand. We talk about the Gardaí there as well, for people not familiar,

that is the police force in Ireland. But it did come to a decision. I want to play a little of Nikita. This was her speaking outside the court after the decision was given that McGregor was, she won her case against Mr. McGregor who was accused of assaulting her.

I want to show Freya and every other girl on by that you can stand up for yourself if something happens to you, no matter who the person is and justice will be served to all the victims of sexual assault. I hope my story is a reminder

that no matter how afraid you might be, speak up, you have a voice and keep on fighting for justice. I know this has impacted not only my life, my daughters, my family and friends tremendously. And it's something that I'll never forget for the rest of my life. But now that justice has been served,

I can now try and move on and look forward to the future with my family and friends and daughter. Nikita Hand there speaking outside the court what do you think this case means for Ireland Orla? It was a very it was an incredible case really I mean we we've seen cases perhaps like. People might remember the case in Belfast involving rugby players where a lot of details were put out very publicly. In Ireland, usually in a rape case, in a criminal case, a person who is accused of such a crime is not identified

and they can only be identified if they're convicted and only then if the complainant is also not identified or if they waive their right to anonymity. So to have the person accused of this crime accused of doing this to somebody to have them in public talking about it to have the victim publicly identified talking about it caused huge public interest it suddenly became the most talked about case and there were people coming to the courts every day young men in particular coming to see conor mcgregor There were people coming to the courts every day, young men in particular coming to see Conor McGregor. There were people queuing up to get into the court. It has been on every radio station. It has been on every television station. When the decision was delivered,

you could see that there was a huge media scrum outside of national and international media. So people are talking about it. People are talking about the issues involved. The judge himself, when he was giving his charge to the jury, about some of the issues spoke about issues relating to consent in particular he told the jury for example that just because somebody sends a nice photograph of themselves over social media that's not an invitation he spoke about the fact that somebody may be very drunk they may be under the influence of drugs that doesn't mean again that they're consenting to sexual intercourse and he spoke about some of these very important issues. So they are the kind of issues that are being talked about. And as you can imagine, on social media,

there are people who have views on the case. Conor McGregor has been posting on X in particular, and on Instagram, and then deleting posts. He said originally that he was going to appeal. He then deleted that post. He also tweeted and put up posts saying, criticizing the key to hand. He reposted posts from James Lawrence again, criticizing the key to hand. So there has been a lot of talk about it. On the other hand, the Rape Crisis Center has said that it has had a huge increase in calls that have been Rape Crisis Center, beginning from the beginning of the trial, as soon as the trial began, because people were very concerned that if they went further and if they took their case to court, that they would also be exposed to this level of publicity and this level of

scrutiny of everything they did and everything they wore, everything they had said, their conduct before and after. And so the Rape Crisis Centre has had to reassure its clients about what normally happens in a rape case so there is a lot of discussion about it. Yeah it's a small country I was back the other weekend and I felt that everybody I spoke to seemed to have an opinion on it just to kind of put that across for context with our listeners. We heard Nikita speak there her mum has been speaking to the times and has said that she doesn't know if Nikita will ever work again. She says we just take it every day as it comes now.

How are you seeing that part of the story? There was evidence on her behalf from a number of doctors and from a psychiatrist and leader who has a lot of experience in dealing with people who've been through sexual assault. She said that Nikita Hand showed the classic symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Her own doctor said that as well. She had tried to go back to work several times. She tried to go back originally to the hair salon that she worked in, but she had to leave. She found it too triggering. She said this case, even though nobody was identified, began to filter through almost immediately on social media. So even the day after, there was some talk on social media and there was talk of a sports star and eventually Conor McGregor's name was mentioned. And she said people would be talking about it in

the salon, not knowing that she was involved. She found that too upsetting, so she had to leave. She did then try to go back and work as a cleaner briefly again. She found that the anxiety was too much and she tried to work as a hairdresser in her local area. So she hasn't been able to work. Her doctor signed her off, her GP signed her off. And as I say, Anne Leader, the psychiatrist, felt that she was suffering from the classic symptoms of PTSD. This award of damages is on the low side. It's going to be it's not going to allow her to never work again, for example. So it remains to be seen what the future holds for her. She also faces a costs hearing later this week. The costs of the action will be decided to decide who is going to pay the costs. And those costs are estimated at more than a million euro.

And because James Lawrence, in effect, was found not to have assaulted Nikita Hand, he would, as normal things go, he would be expected to get the costs. And that could take up a lot of the money that she was awarded in damages by the jury. So it remains to be seen what the future holds for her. And just for people that are joining us, McGregor has been ordered to pay close to a quarter of a million euros in damages to Nikita Hand. Orla O'Donnell, RT News' legal affairs correspondent, thank you very much for coming on Woman's Hour.

And again, I just want to reiterate if you have been affected by any of the issues we have raised in this conversation, there are support links on the BBC Action Line. Now, just as I was starting the programme, I just put it out, what is your relationship with alcohol?

Because coming to our next item, I want to just read a couple that have come in as I was chatting to Orla there. Tig says, I stopped drinking altogether age 42 following severe illness, having been a regular heavy drinker since I was chatting to Orla there. Tig says, I stopped drinking altogether age 42 following severe illness, having been a regular heavy drinker since I was about 14.

Now at 57, I love to share a bottle of good wine over a meal, occasionally a cocktail before or a single short after, but not frequently, always with lots of water, rarely in the evening. And I find it better if I have a long late lunch and then lots more water and sleep it off. So many came in. I want to speak about this because there's a BBC Panorama documentary

that's just out today, and it is asking, why are more young women dying from alcohol-related liver disease than ever before? The BBC's Hazel Martin is 32. She was diagnosed with the condition. She's never been dependent on alcohol,

but used to drink socially on nights out with friends. Doctors told Hazel that she could die if she didn't stop. She's been investigating how she became one of a growing number of young women surprised to discover their social drinking habits had put their lives at risk. Good to have you with us Hazel. Good to have you, good to be here Nuala, thank you so much. I'm also in studio, I'm joined by Professor Debbie Shawcross, consultant, hepatologist at King's College Hospital. Welcome to you too. Thank you. Good morning. And also, Professor Debbie is in your documentary. You've touched a nerve here, I can see by the amount of comments that are coming in to me, Hazel, just in the past couple of minutes. But tell us about your experience.

So yes, and hi, Debbie, by the way, I've not spoken to you since we met, it's lovely to hear you on the airwaves, you're a fab. So my experience, well you mentioned it there, I was 31, I had not long been back from maternity leave to work and I was tired and you think of course you were tired um but I went to the GP and um the GP ordered blood tests and what came up from them was my liver function which was um elevated the numbers that they were supposed to be so that led to more blood tests and then eventually led to an ultrasound and then eventually led to what's called a fiber scan um and that showed that I had severe alcohol related liver damage I mean what was it like to get that news because I'm just thinking young girl out about town have a little baby maybe whatever celebrations here and there. What was it like? It was, I think the biggest shock was actually, you know, in the run-up to that because, you know,

I had been told this could be happening to you, you know, this is something that we're exploring, but I think it's not until you sit down and you are told this is what has happened to you, is how it has happened and you need to stop otherwise you're in big trouble because this is the words that were that were used you know liver disease is a silent killer and most people don't know until it's too late and to hear that I mean it hit me like a ton of bricks um you know but at the same time it was strange because there are no symptoms in the early stages and so even though I was tired I felt fine so on the one hand I was being told this big diagnosis

you know this huge life change um and that that that for so many reasons of which we'll sure we'll get on to about alcohol in our society and in a big part of my life, but also with, but I feel okay. So how can my liver be so upset with me right now? And I think people might be thinking, how much did she really drink, okay? And I think the part of the documentary that really struck me is what binge drinking is. I mentioned it at the top.

It's more than six units for a woman at one sitting, shall we say. So that could be equivalent to three medium glasses of wine I'm talking about 175 mils for example that is binge drinking yes and actually Nuala it's even less than you think so I just want to say that I don't make any excuses for the fact that I drank a lot socially I did you know in my my late teens through my 20s um you know life kind of took over and I did a lot less but it was I still um you know I I ended up with this liver damage so you know I'm not gonna make any excuses for that um however I I truly believe that I wasn't drinking

in a way that was different to anybody else around me and that's not to blame anybody because it's not what this is about it's not what this film is about it's not how I am um as a person but I do truly believe that it was just so normalized and I and I didn't realize at the time just how much damage was being done to part of my body um and actually binge drinking you mentioned it there saying that it was you know three glasses. Binge drinking is anything over six units from a woman. And it's actually only two glasses of wine, two large glasses of wine in one sitting. And if you do that, say, once a week over a long period of time, your risk of developing alcohol-related liver disease or ARLD increases two or even threefold. And if you drink three glasses of wine or heavy binges, as it's known as, your likelihood as a woman of developing this increases by up to four times. I want to read some of the messages that are coming in.

Then I want to speak to Professor Debbie Shawcross as well. Hazel, you're staying with us. Catherine wrote, she says, I began binge drinking in my teens and continued until my early 30s. Once I started, I couldn't stop. I would drink way over the official binge drinking limit. I think most women are unaware of this. Now at 53, I barely drink as I feel awful after just a little bit of alcohol. I'm pleased I was able to stop for the sake of my health. And I'm going to come back to your health and how it is now, Hazel, a little bit later. Here's Carrie in London. I gave up alcohol when after menopause, my body couldn't no longer tolerate it. Kickstarted by a dry January almost two years ago. I noticed how amazing I felt when I cut out alcohol. Another from Gemma in Paisley. Adults put each other under terrible pressure to drink alcohol. It's still stigmatised for millennials to not drink. And if you're a woman, you're subjected to invasive questions about potential pregnancy if you choose not to drink. I drink a lot less because I'm aware of the detrimental health

effects and the tactics used by the alcohol industry to push their products including specific targeting of women. I think younger generations are more aware of this and are resisting. Just on that point Gemma in Paisley the Portman Group represents the alcohol industry and they said the increase in alcohol-related liver disease among both men and women is a serious concern. It says its code of practice, I quote,

does not protect against gender-based marketing specifically, but sets minimum standards for alcohol producers to market their products responsibly and that it remains committed to its efforts to promote moderate drinking

and holding the alcohol industry to account where necessary. Professor Debbie, what are you seeing in the hospital? We are seeing a huge increase in men and women, but particularly women presenting younger and younger with alcohol-related liver disease. And it is shocking because if you look at the national statistics, the incidence of heart disease, cancer, strokes, they're all going down. Liver disease is going up exponentially. And each year we are seeing more and more cases presenting with liver disease. So what's happening? I mean, why has this changed if everything else is going down? Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, it's very much lifestyle related. Alcohol, of course, we're talking about today is the number one concern that's driving this.

But also liver disease can also develop when we have unhealthy diets, when we put on weight as well. So we are having an obesity epidemic and that's also making people's livers more susceptible to the effects of alcohol. But actually, when we look at the statistics post-COVID, people are just drinking more alcohol than they were before the lockdowns. So we have changed our drinking habits and we've not changed them back. And it's a worrying concern. And the ages we're talking about for alcohol related liver damage, it is still older men that are most effective. But it's here that we're seeing this exponential growth you're talking about. What age women? So we're seeing in all age women, but actually in the most recently published Office for National Statistics report, actually the highest rise were in women in their 50s. So we've seen a huge jump.

And that probably represents drinking from the age of, you know, from the early 20s and 30s, because it usually takes about 10 to 20 years for women to actually develop the signs of advanced liver disease. It's not something that happens overnight, usually. It's something that, as Hazel mentioned, you don't realise you've got it until it's too late and you develop symptoms. And Hazel was actually very fortunate because actually she presented to her GP and had the relevant tests to actually identify this. But actually many women will not do that and will not know that their livers are damaged or certainly at harm from drinking. And Hazel, you gave up the booze.

You got a much better result on your liver. Congratulations. That's great. Thank you. But I am curious, how long did you give it up for? I can't remember in the documentary. So I gave up for 10 months between FibroScans. And that was my result which went from, so a fibre scan is a non-invasive

ultrasound and it tests your liver stiffness so anything over a reading of seven, sorry under a reading of seven is considered normal, anything over a reading of seven is considered fibrosis and anything above kind of 12 is you're kind of heading more towards a haicirosis. So my reading was 10.2 initially. I know it's high, right? I mean, there's no doubt and Debbie is nodding her head here as well. And I'm glad it came down. But I'm wondering, what did you, what response or reaction did you get from people? I don't know whether you've become evangelical about this with your friends because you've still got the same set of friends, I imagine,

that are still drinking. Oh, of course, of course. But listen, you know, I would never judge anybody. I still serve wine. You know, I don't hate on alcohol. I don't have any regrets. You know, I've had, you know, alcohol played such a big part in my life but

I don't look back on it and think oh I wish I'd never done that because you know you can't take it back and actually look what we've done as a result and I think sorry you asked me about my kind of relationship with alcohol

yeah because I'm just thinking if you're a poster girl now you know in a way among your friend group at least maybe more after the documentary goes out about the risks of having X amount of glasses of wine. No of course and I think you know I don't know whether I

was unlucky or you know what happened has happened but I certainly think you know whoever I have spoken to about this film and what we are doing, and that is within my friend group, that's within my loved ones, my work colleagues,

even people in the street, because it comes up in conversation, obviously, all the time. I've had the most amazing conversations with people um not one person has said i don't know what you mean when i've told them this is what we're doing this is what i'm looking into this is what i'm working on everybody's got a story and everyone wants to share and i think that's just been so powerful and for me that's that's been a really you know big part of of this film and also why I'm a journalist, because I love hearing people's stories.

Do you want to hear some more of them? I'd love to. Thank you so much for everyone. Yes, they're coming in thick and fast. Debbie, I want to run this first one by you, because I was talking about the couple of glasses of wine. Hazel was saying even once a week could be binge drinking. My wife and I drink a bottle of wine a night.

Is it still considered binge drinking if you do it every day? Yes. And it's probably more than binge drinking, actually, because it depends whether it's a bottle of white wine or a bottle of red wine. A bottle of white wine probably has 10 or 11 units and a bottle of red wine probably has closer to 12 or 13 units because it's usually stronger. And whether you're sharing that or whether you're having that yourself, that's much alcohol and we recommend really that anybody who does drink alcohol regularly should have two or three days each week when they to let the liver recover to let the liver recover absolutely so you shouldn't be doing that every day here's just some stories i think this kind of gives us kind of a societal snapshot i can't drink anymore it gives me instant migraine I really miss it and sometimes feel like a social pariah.

I also avoid some evenings out because it's boring listening to drunk people. Also, I don't feel like splitting the bill with heavy drinkers. Another, I'm 41. I became teetotal age 19 simply because I didn't like the taste of alcohol. For years, people endlessly pressured me

or derided me for not drinking. But over the past couple of years, this has completely changed. People are almost entirely positive or indifferent to my sobriety and it's a big relief. I don't know if this is because of my age now or because people's attitudes have changed.

That's Abby from Edinburgh. One more from Laura. I don't drink. I really don't mind when other people do, but I find many take issue that I don't drink. It's fascinating to them. I stopped drinking when I had my son in my early 20s. I never started again. I got used to feeling well. My father was an alcoholic,

but this was not a conscious reason for not drinking. I'm 43 now. I feel so healthy. I don't miss drink. I don't judge other people for drinking. I think that not drinking makes others self-conscious of their own habits. So they always want to know more about why you don't. You're nodding your head. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, these are such important messages that, you know, as a doctor, I don't need to tell people because people are explaining them with their own stories. It's so important that we watch what we drink. What are the symptoms?

I know Hazel mentioned being tired all the time. Well, actually, as I say, for probably the first 10 years, you won't have any symptoms, and this is the scary thing. You will have damage that will gradually be developing in your liver over 10 to 20 years and you won't you won't necessarily feel anything although probably you will you will have lower energy levels you will feel tired you won't be as fit as you as you would that could be a touch of a hangover or liver damage well it could be it could be you just don't know and and this is why it's important i think if

people who are listening today are thinking actually maybe i am in this category where i am drinking more than you know having been drinks or drinking more than i should be each day that actually you go to your gp you go and get a blood test you go and get a fibro scan like hazel did and you actually go and identify if you're somebody who could be at risk or have early signs of liver disease that's such an important message thank you both both for Professor Debbie Shawcross, consultant, hepatologist at King's College Hospital for coming in. And also for Hazel Martin,

who is joining us today from Salford. Details of organisations offering information and support are available online at the BBC's Action Line website. And you can watch the BBC Panorama's Binge Drinking and Me, as it's called, on BBC iPlayer now and on BBC One tonight at 8pm. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

I want to turn to a rivalry in LA. Two women, authors living through the 1960s in Los Angeles. I'm talking about Eve Babitz and Joan Didion. They were Californians, literary it girls, moving in similar circles in Hollywood in the 60s and 70s. They actually even died within days of each other in December 2021. Probably the most famous books? Well, for Babitz, I'd say it's Slow Days,

Fast Company. Joan Didion, I'm going to say The Year of Magical Thinking. And my next guest, Lillian Olic, has written a book on them, appropriately called Didion and Babbitts. She calls them two halves of American womanhood, representing forces that are on the surface in conflict, yet secretly aligned. Lillian, you're very welcome. Hey, thanks for having me. You're joining us from New York this morning where it is very early. Thank you for getting up for us. I think Joan Didion perhaps

will be more familiar to our listeners, but let's talk about Eve Babitz. Who is she and why are you so obsessed with her? Well, all right. She started out, the first thing she did that sort of got public attention was at 20 years old,

she posed naked with Marcel Duchamp playing chess for a photograph that became very famous. Then she designed album covers for a number of rock and roll bands. And she was sort of famous for her, I don't know how to say this, her sex resume. She had a lot of famous boyfriends, a few famous girlfriends. And in her later 20s, she began writing and publishing in Rolling Stone and writing a lot of famous boyfriends, a few famous girlfriends. And in her later 20s, she began writing and publishing in Rolling Stone and writing a number of books. So that is a little bit, a potted history of her very colourful life. But you have written this book and the relationship that was between these women that were iconic for Manny. How did you come to this point?

Because this includes a treasure trove of letters that led to this book. Tell me a little bit about your relationship with Eve Babitz and how we got to this point. Oh, sure. So, well, I started, I don't know how to use a nicer term. I basically started stalking her in 2010.

All her books were out of print. I'd never heard of her. But I read Slow Day's Fast Company. I came across that book. And I just thought she was like, you know, the secret genius of Los Angeles. And there was kind of no information on her online. And she'd been in this horrible fire in the late 90s. She set herself on fire accidentally.

And so she'd been this intensely social creature all her life. And then all of a sudden she was just out of sight. So I chased her for years. And I finally got to write a profile on her for Vanity Fair. And then I wrote a book on her in 2019. And I thought I was done with her. I'd, I'd moved on to other topics, you know. Anyway, she dies, as you mentioned, right around Christmas 2021. And she lived in a really frightening apartment in West Hollywood. It was kind of an insane filth and chaos. But it turned out at the back of a closet, her sister found these boxes that their mother had packed decades before and they were filled with these kind of letters and journals, artwork, manuscripts, all that. But it was actually,

they were boxes of letters she never sent. You know, letters she hadn't thrown away, had preserved but had not actually sent to the people to whom they were addressed. And they formed this kind of diary. It was this very candid writing. And the first letter I pulled out was the letter she wrote to Joan Didion in 1972. And it was like eavesdropping on a lover's quarrel. And I had, yes. Let me stop you there for a moment because you have part of that in the book that I read. That's exactly what it's like. It's not like a letter that you would send to a friend, even if you were angry at them. It's not like to a rival either.

It's like a lover's tiff between the two of them. Absolutely. There's kind of such a high level of volatility and passion. And so I had known that the two women knew each other and were on the same scene in sort of kind of Manson, LA, you know, in the late 60s and early 70s. I mean, Charles Manson. But I had no idea they were on such intimate terms. And I realized kind of all that I thought that I knew, I didn't know, you know, it was it, it just kind of blew it blew that whole kind of scene and story.

And those two women opened for me. And for those that don't know Joan Didion, I mean, The Year of Magical Thinking. I love that book, which I was perhaps her most famous. But how else would we describe Joan? I suppose she was a pioneer of new journalism. Some of the writing she did, putting California center stage in a different way to Eve Babitz. And she was a very different creature. I feel I'm not feeling the love for Joan Didion from you, which I usually do with people when I speak to them about Joan.

Yeah, well, I guess I more admire Joan. I don't know. Temperamentally, we're not well suited. It's like she's not my type. You know, it's almost, it almost comes down to something that crude, but, you know, she's undeniably great. And probably, I think if you're a woman and you're a writer in the, in the United States and you write nonfiction, there's sort of no larger figure. She's almost so big that she blots out the sun here. And, you know, as you mentioned, new journalism, and she was sort of no larger figure. She's almost so big that she blots out the sun here. And, you know, as you mentioned, new journalism,

and she was sort of, I would say, a personal essayist. You know, she was at the center of her own writing and often seemed to write very intimate things, The Year of Magical Thinking about her husband who had died. Just she was always writing about herself and her own life, but she was actually quite opaque and hidden, and she never told you what she didn't want you to know and this letter um the way eve was writing to her you just saw her in this new way and he was very angry at her for um putting down the women's movement um that's sort of what the letter is about and eve felt that joan um kind of fetishized her own smallness and slightness as a way of kind

of getting in with men. And I kind of never thought about Joan in those terms. That's what I mean about kind of an intimate view. They seemed in some ways opposites, their physicality perhaps, or perhaps some of the topics that they approached as well. But you say their dynamic was untrappable, unnameable and unofficial. Were they friends? I mean, I'm thinking of these two women at that particular time. It was hard enough to be a woman, never mind about a female author, surrounded by so many, you know, at that time that that wouldn't have given them the time of day. I don't know whether it was just some of the people at the time would have been Tom Wolfe

or Hunter S. Thompson, Guy Tlaize, for example. They were kind of the big male figures at the time. And these two women trying to make a path through. No, absolutely. And it was kind of a hard drinking, womanizing era. I mean, it was just it was kind of tough if you were female and Joan and Eve just had different approaches, I guess, to the same problem. When I said untrouble and language, I meant, I meant something like they had a kind of relationship. You

could describe it as a friendship, but it was, it was like they were, they were opposites who were also doubles. To me, it was the dynamic. I felt like I was writing a nonfiction version of the Elena Ferrante, My Brilliant Friend series. It's almost like we have, I don't know, it's like we prize romantic love most of all. I just think that's usually how it goes.

Or there's words for two people who are friends. But there's something about the intensity of this kind of relationship where the other person um is is is the exact opposite you but at the same time the same as you do you know what i'm saying i feel like these these kind of relationships we don't talk about them but they're almost closer than any other kind of relationship you could have and do we know that particularly in their later life no i mean i don't think they were. I think Joan would have viewed Eve as a casualty of the 70s, as somebody who did not survive that kind of hard living decade.

And in some ways she was right. I mean, Eve was so, she lived so hard. You know, it was so many drugs, so many men. And in ways she kind of didn't recover from that period it's like that post-pill pre-aids era where you could kind of have as much sex as you wanted it was just a wild time and Joan was there too but Joan was sort of an observer of that scene and Eve was absolutely a participant what do you think from what you've learned about their relationship does it tell us about the status of a woman in that circle at that time? woman and very macho, short, hard sentences. And she identified with kind of the winners. So I

think there was a way in which she wanted to be a big writer. She did not want to be a big woman writer. She didn't want that adjective before writer. And so she sort of figured out how to be the one girl in the boys club, you know. And that meant sort of being rejecting of, I don't know, certain feminine characteristics. You know, when she put down the women's movement, she was basically saying that sexism was all in women's heads. And sort of just because she had gotten in, she was denying that there was a problem. Do you know what I'm saying? She wanted to be the exception.

And Babitz instead, how would you characterize her? Kind of intensely female. Her role model was Marilyn Monroe, which meant, you know, Marilyn Monroe, who was kind of the most famous woman of her era, but also treated like a bimbo, right?

And that was sort of Eve's fate and it was almost as if she embraced it. I want to thank you for coming on and for getting up early for us. Lily Anolic and the book is Didion and Babbitt's. I want to thank you for coming on and for getting up early for us. Lily Anolic and the book is Didion and Babbitts. I have to say it has given me an appetite to read some of Eve Babbitt's books as well, as well as Didion's,

which I have gorged on a bit more. But thank you very much for coming on. Thank you for having me. Have a great day. You too. Lots of you continue to talk about alcohol. My partner, this is Jen, was diagnosed with dementia in July 2019.

It was related to alcohol and was heartbreaking. I very rarely drink now as I'm too scared in case it may also happen to me. I want to turn to the writer of a powerful new play which looks at the child sexual exploitation and grooming scandals that took place in northern and mid middle towns in England in the late 90s through to the early 2010s.

The play, called Expendable, is currently on at the Royal Court in London. It follows two sisters dealing with the impact of this on their lives and also their local community. The play is based in a fictional area but you will no doubt be familiar with the grooming scandals upon which it is based. The most notorious were in Rotherham, Rochdale and Talford.

Girls were raped, abused and trafficked by predominantly Asian men. The most recent development took place earlier this month as 20 men were sent to prison for their involvement in abusing girls in Calderdale, West Yorkshire between 2001 and 2010. You may also have seen the BBC drama Three Girls, which was inspired by the experience of girls in Rochdale. My next guest has turned to drama to try and understand the impact this period has had on her own community. Emmetis Hussain is the playwright behind Expendable. Welcome to the Woman's Hour studio.

Oh, hi Nuala. Great to be here. Yes. Why did you decide this topic? It is such a difficult and contentious one yeah because I felt the voices of British Pakistani women were erased from the overarching narrative really and as I am a British Pakistani woman who's from those northern towns um I wanted to kind of illuminate and spotlight the experience from that perspective and so I'm being a dramatist and a writer. That's what compelled me. So that's what I've done. So there's two sisters that you focus on, Zara and Yasmin. What do you, what are you trying to get them to represent on stage? A kitchen sink drama, some people have called it.

Yeah. Well, basically, Yasmin is slightly estranged from the family and then you've got Zara who's her sister who's a bit of a homebody so you've got Yasmin who's a little bit of a rebel and you've got Zara who's a little bit of a homebody and Yasmin sort of returns because her nephew Zara's son has been accused of being a groomer and being in the press, and the play all unravels from there, really, in that domestic setting. In terms of the Kitchen Sink drama, yeah, that's an interesting sort of situation to place it in, but it came to me quite early because I just thought, how can I bring this sort of massive subject

down to its intimate details, really? And so that sort of lent itself to this kind of unraveling of this sort of domestic drama. So Zahra Niasman, British Pakistani woman, you also have a character, Jade, a white woman who is one of the victims of the grooming case. And tell me about her interaction as you see it. Yeah, she's a, you know, a fictional, they're all fictional characters in a fictional town. But she's sort of, her interaction is actually sort of how it counters the kind of prevailing narrative

that the community is so polarised, actually, and it's these sort of brown men who hurt these white girls, that actually there was, people were integrated, people were friends, that it's not just a community that's complicit. People live closely together, people sort of interact together, and people have history together. And sort of Jade illuminates that with this family because she knows

the family so that's the kind of interaction but I'm trying not to give spoilers Sure of course not, of course not, I understand because our listeners will remember, you'll remember as well that the previous Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, he said in 2022 that victims of grooming gangs

have been ignored because of political correctness. Also the former Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, saying the perpetrators are groups of men, almost all British Pakistani. She was then accused of pushing discredited stereotypes. But there is that conversation that is taking place. Professor Alexis Jay, she carried out the report into Rotherham in 2014.

She concluded that the majority of known perpetrators were of Pakistani heritage, including five men convicted in 2010. I'm just wondering what process you went through to research the play when there are such difficult issues at hand. Well, in terms of what you've just said

and some of that sort of research, it's in the play and how things impact on those characters is systematic failings. You know, there's police, there's social services and how didn't they do their jobs? In terms of sort of the cultural sensitivity notion, the play kind of illuminates the fact that this is a family that's been here for decades. It's a loving family. And, you know, and the community has been sort of around for decades paying its taxes. So how have these sort of institutions failed that community. So we look at that for the messy drama of these characters and how actually was it that black and white really? Who else, you know, were involved and how messy was that really? So, yeah.

In the sense that it should have been identified and acted on in a much earlier time scale? Yeah, actually, arguably, yeah. Because child sexual exploitation, what's the excuse really to not act on it? There's no cultural issues that should be in the way. What do you want audiences to take from the play? To sort of understand a little bit more about what a community went through, to understand that actually British Pakistani women have been active and grassroots activism has been going on for decades and that that is overseen and overlooked

and to sort of understand and acknowledge that actually, yeah. And that, you know, the loving family at the heart of it and to take away. It's a drama that is for everybody because it's just a family in a crisis situation and how do they handle that? I'm particularly looking at it, I guess, 10 years after that report came out.

Emmett T's Hussein is the playwright behind Expendable. It's on at the Royal Courts Gerwood Theatre upstairs and it's on until the 21st of December. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Nuala. More messages coming in on drinking. I stopped drinking when I got pregnant at the beginning of the year, but continued socialising on alcohol-free

and realised how much I enjoyed going home with a clear head and waking up without horrendous hangovers. Now I'm breastfeeding, I still have an excuse, in inverted commas, but I'm realising this is a shelf life and while I don't object to having a few drinks and indeed miss the odd glass of wine,

and I'm desperate to get some of my social life back, I do dread slightly the renewed social pressure of keeping up with my drinking friends. And that is Rose messaging us today from Switzerland. The shortlist is out for BBC Radio 1's Sound

of 2025. Now this is an award given by a panel of music experts and chart-topping legends that labels an artist as the one to watch for next year. Previous winners include Adele, Haim and Sam Smith. There are 11 artists on this year's list, among them a woman who started off 2024

as the backing vocalist for Olivia Rodrigo. So quite a change. She's now a superstar in her own right. I'm talking about Chapel Roan. You know one of those songs. Even if you don't know

the name Chapel Roan, you do know one of those songs. Or maybe you know her for telling off her fans for their inappropriate behaviour towards her on social media. She's not afraid to speak her mind. Some of the other nominees

for the Sound of 2025 are Doci, English teacher and confidence man. I want to bring in Laura Snapes, Deputy Music Editor at The Guardian. Also, you're a big Chapel Roan fan, I hear. Is that right?

Yes, very big. It crept up on me slowly, but then I got completely obsessed. I don't think I've ever done as much tuneless singing in my car. Why not the tuneless singing why are you a fan um I think first and foremost the songs are just really incredible she's an extremely funny lyricist I think the biggest pop stars of the year are like Chapel Rowan, Sabrina Carpenter and Charli XCX and they've all got so much humor in their music and they're very extroverted and

sort of like big confident visual performers and it's a I think a very welcome change in tone from either the sort of like more bedroom oriented sad girl um sort of thing that came out of the pandemic especially when there were restrictions on how to perform but I think yeah the explosiveness that her her commitment to character um at all of her shows she sets a theme and she invites the audience to come along and dress up so it's very easy for them to participate um yeah, and I think I also, I love how principled she is, like you said, calling out her fans for being inappropriate to her on social media and publicly and also taking a very nuanced stance about politics,

which a lot of pop stars don't do. Let's talk about them. Who did I see the latest this morning? Daniel Craig congratulating Chapel Roan on taking that stand and being gutsy. But she posted about unwanted advances from her fans. Unpack that a little bit for us. Well, I think, yeah, it was partially on social media,

but also in real life. She said that her family had been stalked and also people were preaching in the street. Her real name is Kayleigh Rose Amstutz, and she said that she will not respond to that in person. I think she's been very clear about, like, Chapel Roan is a pop star and this is my job and she's trying to preserve something of herself which you know is really difficult I think we've seen fame do a

number on so many young people especially so many young women it's really amazing that she's trying her best to protect herself but and she's also been very open about how hard it's been she's had to cancel a couple of dates because of the overwhelm because she's had such a stratospherically kind of ridiculous year um so yeah it's it's rare to see a young voice sort of arrive so fully formed both as a songwriter and also what she has to say for herself um you mentioned the performances there some i was reading about like the theme was mermaid for example rolling stone called it campy how would you describe it I think campy is definitely it. I mean, for me, the biggest visual influence is,

I mean, she cited her debt to drag. She loves drag. You just played the song Pink Pony Club, which is about her finding herself at a drag club in West Hollywood called the Pink Pony Club. So drag artists are there primarily. But then also the B-52s, John Waters, that very sort of like cartoonish, extra Americana,

but, you know, ramped up to its fullest extent of absurdity. Yeah, that's sort of the aesthetic. And I think the beautiful thing about the themes for shows is fans can, you know, all you need is like face paint and glitter. You can spend like two quid and you can go along and you're part of it. And I think that sort of tactility and sort of analogue quality that she has is one of the reasons why she's been such a sort of grassroots phenomenon. And I did see B-52s are one of her musical influences. Who else? Who else?

Oh, I'm trying to think. I've stuck my head in there. I think you can definitely hear a lot of Cyndi Lauper in there. Oh, yes. I think I did. She mentioned Kate Bush somewhere as well. Elton John, and he's a big fan of hers as well. Yeah, I think that sort of flamboyance.

In Good Luck, Babe, another one of the songs you played, I think you can also hear kind of like the high goth drama of something like Shakespeare's Sister as well. So, but I mean, this kind of transformation, shall we say, from backing singer to where she is now, they've had to move her to bigger stages, for example, for her performances or venues. How do you understand it?

It feels like a real phenomenon, yeah. I think it has felt quite grassroots. Her debut album came out last September and it had quite a quiet launch. It didn't have incredible reviews. It got positive reviews. I confess I was not really that across who she was at that point. But yeah, it sort of crept up slowly. I think because the songs are so good, like Good Luck Babe is absolutely incredible. And also because her performances are so exuberant. She's such a great performer as well in the middle of all the costuming and everything.

Footage of it started to go viral. And so it made more people want to go to the shows, which is then, as you say, how she ends up being upgraded from sort of a lunchtime slot at the American Festival Bonnaroo to a later afternoon slot. And they think that she pulled the festival's biggest crowds of all time. It must be quite something for her to be going through that as well. She often speaks about her sexuality. She's a lesbian. She's been credited with leading, and I quote, a lesbian pop renaissance in the charts. How much is that an appeal?

I think it's definitely a huge appeal. I think definitely when it comes to pop music, you know, queerness has always been part and parcel of the best pop music both in terms of how it's made and also how it's been appreciated the communities have sort of understood it um first um and yeah I think her outspokenness um a lot of people really admire that and her shows are a really safe space for young people especially to go to like um Chapel Rowan is from the midwest she's from Missouri she was a closeted young woman herself you know she didn't have the outlets to sort of express that side of herself or find it. And I think that she's giving a lot of people their first experience, their first opportunities to do that. I think in America as well, she has also run sort of like a quote unquote scholarship

program for tickets to her shows. So if you're somebody that wouldn't be able to afford one, there are means by which you can obtain one because she wants there to be that access, especially for younger queer people in the Midwest, you know, not in sort of big coastal cities. Yeah, her backstory is also really interesting as I took a look at it. So she's on the short list while we're speaking to you today for BBC Radio

One Sound of 2025. I noticed the only other solo female artist was Dochi on the list. It's mainly men, I mean there's some women in a couple of the groups but it is quite male focused. Yeah I mean there's four women or acts including women on the list out of 11 overall, it's almost half. I would say obviously they could do slightly better but I think the biggest barrier to entry

is that the Sound of 2025 list, you know it used to be tipping slightly less known artists for success. Nearly all of these artists are incredibly established and that's the bigger barrier to access if you're a young person trying to break through and looking for the sort of recognition that sound of 2025 would once have conferred that's the sort of artist that's really nowhere to be found here i think um they change the eligibility um conditions for the prize because they want to better reflect how pop stars actually emerge at this point like chapel rowan's been around for a while. Charli XCX had a huge year, but it's her sixth album.

So you can sort of see why they've done it. But I think that it has left it sort of grasping for its identity and purpose a little bit because all of these artists are already sort of nailed on stars. Let's talk about a previous star, that's Adele. It was one of the most read I noticed on the BBC website today about this weekend she hung up her microphone for The Foreseeable.

What do you think is going to happen there? I think that she will just go back to living her life. She's always been very clear that she doesn't particularly like performing. You know, she's had a great run in Vegas and then in Munich this summer as well. And she's in a position where she can do whatever she wants. I mean, both the sort of like financially and artistically.

I mean, I thought her last album was her best one. It's the most experimental one, but it was actually, I think probably her least successful one ever. So it's an interesting position. My perception is she'll be able to perform the songs from the first three albums forever. But like, especially as quite a young woman, she's only sort of 35, 36 or so. Do you want to be trapped playing songs about your early 20 something life forever? When she's also been really clear that one of the reasons she's taking time off is because I can't remember if she's married or if she's engaged. But anyway, she's got a new love. She's living a new kind of life and she wants to be able to actually enjoy it and get off that treadmill. So I respect it. On the treadmill is Chapel Roan. She's also been nominated for six Grammy Awards.

So thinking of Adele and how she's cleaned up in certain years. What do you think are her chances? She's up for Best New Artist in Album of the Year. I think she's got very strong chances, hopefully as Best New Artist. It would be hard to think of somebody else who's had such a massive breakthrough year as her. Yeah, I think it's going to be a super exciting

year for her next year. We'll have her second album, Good Luck Babe is just the first single. There's another country song that she's been performing live called Subway, so hopefully we'll start to hear a bit more of that soon. Laura Snapes on Chapel Rowan. Thank you so much. We will find out who won the BBC Radio 1 Sound of 2025 award in early January 2025. Tomorrow, I'm speaking to Abigail Barlow and Emily Bear,

the songwriting partnership Barlow and Bear, about writing music for Moana 2. They're the first female songwriting duo to pen a Disney soundtrack. And I'll also be hearing about Medea, a documentary about a young Yazidi girl. I want to end on this. Janet in Yeovil. I'm 66 and feel generally well, but I have just tipped my bottle of gin down the sink.

Why would I potentially cause damage to my body? At 66, I need to do everything I can to stay healthy. I'll talk to you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, this is Marian Keyes. And this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds

called Now You're Asking. Each week we take real listeners' questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists, pockets, or the lack of,

anything really, and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help, but also hopefully entertain. Join us why don't you? Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds. Thanking you. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.