Woman's Hour - Claire Foy as the Duchess of Argyll, Janey Godley, Karen Teasdale-Robson, Edwina Paisley

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

Emma Barnett talks to the award winning actor Claire Foy about playing the Duchess of Argyll in the BBC One TV series A Very British Sacandal this Christmas. Margaret Argyll was branded a nymphomaniac by her husband the 11th Duke of Argyll in their explosive 1963 divorce hearing and he was granted a divorce on the grounds of his wife’s adultery.The Scottish comedian Janey Godley tells us about her recent diagnosis of ovarian cancer. The sixty year old is best known for her parody voiceovers of Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon of her daily press briefings made during lockdown. Just a month ago Janey Godley was forced to cut short her UK tour when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. The father-daughter bond can for some be a difficult one - but for others, a joy. Karen Teasdale-Robson from Blaydon, near Newcastle has gone to extraordinary lengths to make sure her father, Bryan isn't forgotten when he dies. Her dad for the majority of his life was a poet and a songwriter but an assault ten years ago left him with a brain injury. Care workers told Karen to prepare for the worst earlier this year, which led her to release a recording of lullaby he had written her almost 60 years ago, to ask for the public's help in re-recording itAnd Edwina Paisley on her work as the Director of Space Programmes at the satellite communications company Inmarsat.Presenter: Emma Barnett Produer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We find ourselves yet again faced with a Monday, this time five days before Christmas and again with a degree of uncertainty about the pandemic may or may not alter plans. One thing that is certain is that a woman, Emma Raducanu, did win the BBC Sports Personality of the Year award last night for her stunning US Open win, becoming the first female tennis player to be crowned Sports Personality of the Year

since, of course, Virginia Wade in 1977, the last British woman to win a Grand Slam singles title. Of course, it being 2021, Emma Raducanu accepted the award in quarantine, recovering from Covid in Abu Dhabi, saying she was simply a 19-year-old from Bromley. That's who she is. Nothing else to it. Well, huge congratulations to her. A stunning year, a stunning way to end the year. We were talking about whether a woman may win it only a few days ago. And of course, we need to make special mention to the Olympic medal winning skateboarder Sky Brown, who won to make special mention to the Olympic medal winning skateboarder, Sky Brown,

who won BBC Young Sports Personality of the Year. She won the Women's Park Bronze in Tokyo, making her Great Britain's youngest Olympic medalist of all time at the age of 13 years and 28 days. And accepting her award, she said, I want to inspire the world, especially little girls, and teach them that skateboarding is for everyone. If you believe in yourself, you can do anything.

Well, I think we need a bit of that can-do attitude this morning. But we also need the facts to help you navigate this festive period. And we have two top women on hand to help you. So any questions, please do message. Are you still making plans or are you cancelling them? Except for those on the 25th trying to get to Christmas without testing positive for COVID. As somebody put it on social media, it's the worst adrenaline stealth game going. Not trying to get it before Christmas, not having to isolate. Of course, we've passed that point for many, if you already have. But tell me where you are with this. 84844.

Text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, the actor Claire Foy on playing the so-called dirty Duchess of Argyle in a new BBC drama. We're also going to be talking about why she loathes the phrase slut-shaming

and what she does during the Queen's Christmas speech, having played a young Her Majesty in the Netflix's Crown. And we're going to hear the lengths that one woman has gone to to honour her dad's poetry ahead of Christmas. But first, over the weekend, there was a social media campaign to highlight the work of female scientists, doctors, epidemiologists and data modellers in the coverage around Omicron and Covid generally.

This was a backlash to a Sunday Times piece called Foir. Look at the vital statistics on these lads, hailing a group of male data crunchers as the smoking hot heroes of the pandemic, saying these lads, quote, and they do tend to be lads, have become rock stars. Eight men were highlighted, three Toms amongst them. Well, two experts in the field working on tackling COVID and the new Omicron variant join me now. Azra Ghani, a professor in epidemiology at Imperial College in London, and Claire Bryant, excuse me, a professor of immunology at Cambridge University.

Azra, just a word on this social media campaign over the weekend. What did you make of that, the focus needing to be perhaps also on the women? Yes, well, unfortunately, this isn't unusual and we've experienced that throughout the pandemic. I've been working in epidemiology for 25 years and along with my male colleagues. And yet, for example, I still get referred to sometimes in newspaper articles as a man. So they don't even check my name before they write the article. And I think we do see many more people in the high profile news. They tend to be the male scientists. And there are just as many fantastic female scientists working on this topic. Three Toms as well in that list.

I was more Toms than anyone else. I mean, just as a note as well. Claire, on that front, are you cheered to see this campaign on social media with a bit of fight back around that? Yeah, I mean, there are fantastic women doing fantastic jobs at the moment. You know, there are women on stage as well as men.

They may not necessarily stand up in front of the media to discuss their incredible work, but they should be applauded for everything they've done. It seems a little bit of a shame not to give the women the recognition they deserve. Well, we will never knowingly not do that here on this programme. So happy to at least put that on the record with both of you. Azra, to come back to the issue at hand,

at which you are an expert and a specialist, in terms of the data and the modelling and the papers that are published by SAGE and the information that we can look at, certainly it seems to be the information, of course, that the Prime Minister is also having to look at when deciding what to do and what to do next. There has been some criticism, some pushback saying this is all the worst case possible. That's what the modelling shows. And we need to look at it differently. What do you make of that, Azra? Well, all of the groups run a number of scenarios and some of those are best case as well.

So it does tend to be the worst case that gets reported in the media rather than the best case. And what we do is we take everything that we know at the current time. We do know quite a lot already about Omicron and we put that into the models and then we vary the things we don't know. And I think the biggest issue at the moment that we don't know yet is how severe this is, whether it's likely to cause as many hospitalisations as the previous variants. Unfortunately, by the time we have the hard data to know that for certain, it could be too late. And so I think because this is an infection that's doubling very, very rapidly, it's doubling every two days, we do need to think now about putting in precautionary measures just to make sure that the NHS isn't overwhelmed and we don't have too many unnecessary deaths. So you'd like the Prime Minister today to say something when you say now?

Well, now is almost too late already. We've had a very, very large number of infections over the past two weeks. And we are starting to see an uptick in hospitalisation. Some action needs to be taken. There are a range of different options, but really there needs to be something that limits the contacts between people in order to slow this down and make it a manageable way. I'll come to Claire in a moment, but do you not think personal responsibility, which is the emphasis certainly in Scotland at the moment, is enough? I'm not saying it has to be a mandate versus a personal responsibility, but we do need from an epidemiological point of view to slow the growth of this particular virus down at the current time. I'm not saying it's your job and it's certainly not to come up with what. I suppose I'm just trying to understand, is personal responsibility not enough, Claire? Where do you stand on that?

It's difficult to say at the moment. Personally, we are moving towards a point where we probably do need to bring in more stringent measures. Personal responsibility is vitally important at the moment. But the real question is whether or not it's enough. And at the moment, the Omicron is spreading so fast. It's a great concern to know whether or not what we're doing is enough, because we have been doing this now, taking personal responsibility at least for a week now. And the Omicron rate is going up.

I was just going to say, at the same time, lots of people getting boosted, who weren't able to before because of the age restrictions. There'll be some listening to this thinking, well, everyone in my family, my friendship group that I know of has had all three or perhaps two if they're still waiting to be able to have the third. Does that not offer enough? It offers you protection against severe disease and really good protection against severe disease. It can reduce the amount of virus you carry, but it doesn't actually stop you getting infected. It stops you getting severe disease. And this is the challenge. You know, you can be vaccinated, but still carry the virus. If you don't test yourself as well as being vaccinated,

you don't know whether you're carrying the virus or not. And that's the challenge we're dealing with here is not passing it on to other people. Do you think that there should be something from the Prime Minister today, Claire? Something more? Well, I mean, I'm not running the country, fortuitously, and not having to deal with this. I think we're reaching a point where we probably do need some more, but it's going to be very unpopular. Very unpopular indeed. And there's a message here just to give you a flavour of some of the messages we're getting in from Jan, who's listening, saying, I'm in total limbo regarding Christmas travel plans to go or not to go. It feels sensible not to as I have to get a plane within the UK and a train telling myself it's not all about me.

Social responsibility, more important? Question mark there. I mean, not that I'm asking you to tell her what to do, but she has written in and perhaps it's also helpful to others to hear what you would say to that. There are a number of things you can do on your personal level. The first is that we do have the tests available. So testing frequently will really help to reassure you and all those around you. Obviously, if you are meeting with people, try and limit the very close contacts. Keep windows open, ventilate rooms. All of these things we've heard about over the last two years will all help to reduce your personal risk.

And in terms of what we know about this variant and how it does transmit, is it different in any way? Because it does seem to be so fast. It just appears to be spreading very, very rapidly. And we believe there may be a degree of aerosol transmission there. So it may well be occurring more easily. But it might be actually something to do with the virus and how it attaches in the upper, in the throat and the mouth. What are we waiting to know, Azra? Because I know you've been looking at the global situation with your work. What are we waiting to figure out or find out? We're really waiting on two things. The first is whether the infection could be milder. And so far, we don't have any good evidence that that's the case. But we have

fairly small numbers in the UK and elsewhere in Europe. The second thing, of course, is how well the vaccines hold up. So we know that we need the booster doses to get a high level of protection. And we're very much hoping that they will provide a very high level of protection against more severe outcomes. But we don't know that definitively yet and there will perhaps be a week or two more data to be able to know that for certain. Claire, anything that you're doing differently now that you could share with us, perhaps how you're thinking about the next five days? Well, certainly over the last week we cancelled any Christmas party

I pulled out of any Christmas events that I would have gone to with extreme reluctance. I have to say I was desperate to go to some Christmas parties. Pulled out all of those. For some time, I've not gone to any event and not met anybody without doing a lateral flow test first and asked them to do a lateral flow test to ensure that, at least to the best of our knowledge, nobody's carrying the virus. And I think that's a critical thing. And the same over Christmas, all the family will do a lateral flow test before we all meet to ensure that nobody's carrying the virus. There are, of course, those who are just saying, you know,

I didn't have a good Christmas last year and there's nothing that's going to get in the way this year, regardless, you know, may not test, may not, and may just continue as is their right. I mean, what do you say when you sort of hear that? And I'm also minded the fact, you know, and I was travelling in on the train this morning, people were without masks. Yeah, I mean, this is a real challenge.

I would ask them to test. I would ask them to wear masks. Oh, you know, I thought about it this morning. I thought this morning. I thought, I might go up to that massive man on the other side of the train and say, why haven't you got a mask on, man? And there was, it was mainly men, I'm going to say that. There was one woman

on the train platform. But you can't, can you? No, but we can continue to put out the message. Mask, vaccines, reduce social interactions. That's all you can do. And take all the precautions you can as an individual.

If you choose not to do that, that is your personal right, of course, to do that. But personally, I would test. I would not want to run the risk of giving the virus to any of my family. Thank you very much for talking to us. I hope you do have a Merry Christmas when we get there. You too. Claire Bryant, Professor of Immunology at Cambridge University. Azra Ghani, same to you. Have a good time over this period if you can.

In moderation, I suppose. I don't know how to say it anymore, where we're up to. A professor in epidemiology at Imperial College in London. We've just got a few messages here. For instance, this one, no name attached, but it says, Hello, Emma. We were going to go to London to visit our two daughters and their families but have decided to stay in devon weighing up the risk element has proven very difficult but we both feel anxiety would take the joy and spontaneity out of our time together we enjoy our five london grandchildren hugely their ages range from 23 down to six brilliant it's always a glorious milieu when the cousins get together. We love them deeply and we'll miss them.

But that's what's happening. It all will be fine. Merry Christmas. Thank you very much for that. Al says, my family are all jabbed. We have zero intention of not enjoying Christmas together.

I am not prepared to limit my life further to help those who cannot help themselves. And Gail says, I was supposed to be cooking Christmas lunch for my octogenarian parents. It's such a pain to have caught this bug. But to be says, I was supposed to be cooking Christmas lunch for my octogenarian

parents. It's such a pain to have caught this bug. But to be honest, it's wiped me out. So I need 10 days to recover. Thank you to my wonderful sister who is delaying going to her in-laws to cook for our parents and deliver to me with some hearts there at the end. Gail, wishing you all the best for a speedy recovery. And thanks so much for the message. Keep them coming in where you're at this morning, what's going on, how you're deciding things, how you're not deciding things, perhaps in limbo too. But now to one of the most notorious and extraordinary legal cases of the 20th century,

the Duke of Argyll versus the Duchess of Argyll, the longest and most costly divorces of the 20th century in this country. It's been turned into a new three-part TV series coming to BBC One this Christmas. Starring Claire Foy, the Emmy and Golden Globe award-winning actor, of course known for many roles, including playing a young Her Majesty in The Crown.

This programme, A Very British Scandal, focuses on Margaret Wiggin, the Duchess of Argyll, played by Claire Foy. She was branded an infomaniac by her husband, the 11th Duke of Argyll, in Claire Foy. She was branded an infomaniac by her husband, the 11th Duke of Argyll, in their explosive 1963 divorce hearing. The Duke allegedly hired a locksmith to gain access to his wife's private papers and claimed she'd taken on 88 lovers, including cabinet ministers, Hollywood stars and royals during their marriage. And most salacious of all,

provided Polaroid photographs as evidence, including one of Margaret giving an unknown man, whose head was cut off in the photo, became known as the Headless Man, oral sex. Have a listen to this clip. I saw the crowds. How was the reception? Rapturous. What do you want? We played a spirited game, but we both know you don't have the guts for this.

Do we really? Margaret, I want to give you one last chance, because I'm an honorable man. I'll go in there, talk to my QC, and this will all be over. There'll be no need for you to be confronted with the evidence. Just nod your head. Couldn't you better take your seat? In the matter of Argyll versus Argyll, the court now calls Margaret Duchess of Argyll. The Duchess did indeed go ahead with the court case,

and yet the technicalities of the legal system at that time and the fact that many of her lovers were gay prevented the Duchess from giving her side of the story without risking imprisonment. The Duke was granted a divorce on the grounds of his wife's adultery, but nothing was said about his own affairs. And Ian, Duke of Argyll, went on to remarry only six weeks later. With her private life splashed all over the papers, Margaret's reputation and personal life was irreparably damaged. The media branded her the dirtyirty Duchess. I caught up with Claire Foy at the end of last week. Claire, real pleasure to talk to you. I've got to start by asking,

why did you take on Margaret Argyle's story? What drew you to it? There were lots of reasons not to do it, basically. I was very nervous about playing someone posh, basically, for want of a better word again I wasn't really interested in it and didn't really want to do it but unfortunately she sort of got under my skin um and I think the injustice of the story the feeling that I felt like I really wanted to try and do something different with it in the way that she'd been perceived and portrayed and how she'd been treated basically not only in the eye, but kind of by the justice system as well. I sort of really sort of didn't want to let it go for that reason.

That and she also was a complete mystery to me. She was sort of really naughty, but then also really well behaved and full of contradictions. And I never got to the bottom of her, basically. But yeah, it was a lot of fun i mean it really is and for some of the they've described it as you know she in her particular scenario with way the way the court case played out um it was and has been called the first time a woman was slut shamed by the mass media and i wonder what you make of that because we've got many examples

since yeah so many I mean I think by the mass media is probably the important note there because I think women I mean I hate the phrase slut shaming I absolutely hate it but I think that women have basically been slut shamed forever I think Eve probably was slut shamed. I mean, took the apple for it. Made him do it. Made him do it. Why do you hate the phrase slut shame? Because I hate it much in the same way that I hate any word that the prostitution, any word where calling a woman a prostitute or anything like that becomes derogatory. There's something about it which I just hate the rephrasing of,

the ownership of that title and it being used in a way which is sort of, justifies it even more, I suppose, in a way. I just, yeah, just the word slut, I just think shouldn't probably exist. I mean, you could take it, I suppose, you could take it both ways, can't you, and how it's used. And some people have tried to reclaim that word. Some women think shouldn't probably exist. I mean you could take it I suppose you could take it both ways can't you and how it's used and some people have tried to reclaim that word some women have tried to do that and spin it on its head but the kind of outcome is the same that for her there was a completely double standard about the amount of sex she was having the adultery that was going on and that was not applied to her husband. No, his extramarital relationships were seen to be just, they weren't even called into question.

That was his right, basically. But I think that the complete double standard in the fact that what she felt was that everybody in her circle was doing this this wasn't something that just she was doing she wasn't by any means and you know yes she obviously seemed to enjoy it and was prolific um in that way but she wasn't particularly doing anything out of the ordinary it was out in the open everybody knew it was going on but the I think the the injustice to her that being used as a way to shame her or kind of write her off as a person, was the fundamental flaw in this whole system and that was wrong for her.

She was like, this is wrong and that is what she was standing for, as opposed to being someone who was standing up for female rights in that way. Did anybody come out to bat for her in terms of, you know, a sort of sisterhood? Because there are a lot of women around her who seem certainly from this portrayal who were very disdainful towards her actions. And her own daughter, Frances, who she did reconcile with just before her death, came to see her mother as, quote, a nightmare of embarrassment. Yeah, I think it's very difficult, isn't it? Because obviously, this is a drama, but it's very much about real people and the legacy of these people and that she did have children.

And it was quite difficult to make knowing that they wouldn't be particularly pleased about the fact that it was being made. But no, I don't think they did. I think she had a few friends who stood by her. But basically she was abandoned by what she thought was her community and her friends, and they basically supported him in quite ridiculous ways. Yeah, ridiculous ways. I mean, there has in some ways, people are hopeful of, women are hopeful of in particular, been a bit of a reckoning recently of trying to actually see things from the woman's point of view.

A very strong case in point is what went on with Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. There's a recent new drama about that. And it was always called the Lewinsky scandal, never the Clinton scandal, even the way that was framed. You know, we are very good at shame. We are as a society, we revel in it. You know, I'm not trying to say anyone in particular, but that is a culture that is there. Do you think it's got any better for women? I don't know. I really want, I think there's definitely a thing

about the fact that something, a genie has been let out of the bottle and it can't go back in. Once you, I just feel, I can only speak from personal experience as opposed to like a cultural revolution kind of way, but I feel like there is a room and an acceptance now that I never would have had the right to say the things that I feel I can say now and have conversations with other women where it wasn't just the fact that you were told you know there would be scenarios at work for example where

I would things would be happening that I would feel were wrong but I was told that I wasn't right by society and now what happens is there's a forum for me and my friends and my colleagues where if something's wrong there's someone who goes yes that's I'm affirming that is actually wrong and it feels like society is now on that page that you can come out with things and and talk about experiences and share what you feel is right and wrong and there are there is an entire avalanche of people who are there going yes absolutely and that wasn't there before not in my experience of being a woman I didn't feel that was there I didn't feel that was that shared

experience of kind of understanding and and backing each other up in that way. But I also think, you know, I think it's taken us this long to get to this place. And I think it would be very naive to think that just a couple of events can change how everyone thinks. Yeah. Are you any less judgmental now, personally, having played her and seen things perhaps a bit more from somebody like her, who's known by some people, certainly in the kind of British folklore, from her perspective? Have you changed your own judgment levels? Yeah, I think just by getting older and getting so many things horrifically wrong, my judgment of myself is much less and therefore I'm much nicer to myself and therefore I'm much nicer about other people I have a real aversion now to us and them kind of attitudes and um

and feeling and I but I still have those thoughts that's a depressing thing isn't it it's all it's sort of bred into us so I still have the thought so now there's like an internal battle of going oh there it is a little bit of misogyny there oh, dear. And I don't have the tools to make it right. It's exhausting, I think, the amount of sex in this, you know, men and women is extraordinary. And there's a scene with wind up gold willies. That's not a spoiler. It's a part of a game. And, you know, I wonder how you found that because it's not about being Purian. I mean, maybe there was nothing else to do for the upper classes. I think it's the thing, you know, played a very well-known aristocrat um sort of the chief and she was sort of untouchable but this stuff that everybody else got to up to is extraordinary and i think it is very much what and sarah phelps is very clever about this is that she's we should

say she's the writer sorry yes sorry she's the writer yeah but her distinction of class in this country is very much, it's okay for us to do it, but it's not okay for everyone to know that we do it. And that is so, you know, the stories that you hear about the upper class and what they get up to, the fact that basically mistresses

and extramarital relations, which are, you know, in wider society condemned and means you're some sort of terrible person if you engage in any extramarital relationship is commonplace it's just sort of it's just yeah it's all a big moral lie well they were very busy that's all i can say you do it very well if i could say that as well oh god it's horrific um but i was really keen on you know I was really keen on in this show in particular I was just I it's a really hard line because basically you do feel exploited

when you are a woman and you are having to you know perform fake sex on the screen you can't help but feel exploited it's just it's grim it's the grimmest thing you can do and you feel exposed and and everyone can try and make you feel that not way that way but it's unfortunately the reality but my thing was I I felt very strongly that it had to be in it but I really was very very I wanted it to be female I did not want it to be female. I did not want it to be that sort of awful, climactic sexual experience that you often see on the cinema screen. But, you know, in comparison, there's not actually that much in it. No, no, it's more alluded to and then you see the morning after

or, you know, what happened next. But no, I can't imagine what it's like to get ready for those scenes and feel good. And I know there are things now like intimacy coordinators that there never were. But still, it must take something out of you. It's sort of amazing the things that they are able to say. It just makes me feel like a 12-year-old. I just start laughing, talking about what body parts people have and where you can touch them and the padding that you can use.

But it's really useful um uh but i don't even know how you get to the point where you make something like normal people for example which i think was extraordinary in the way it portrayed actual yes intercourse indeed i mean and and the other thing just to say i mean of course that was a lockdown hit and it's been an extraordinary 18 20 months now and torrid in many ways and i have to say not least i know you listen to woman's hour but we've we've covered of course some of the hardest news stories of the last year not least with the murder of women uh Sabina Nessa of course then with Sarah Everard which was of course at the hands of a serving police officer I just wanted to ask you as as a woman and I know you've been

off our screens for for three or so years and you've talked about being being burned out but how do you feel walking home at night at the moment and where have you got to with that because I know it's very important from you your perspective that the onus isn't on women but I just wanted to see how you were doing I think you know I now live my life in a way um because basically becoming a being a woman in the public eye unfortunately which I'm sure you probably experienced as well is comes with um risks um so I have to live my life in a in a you know not to go into it in detail but a way that is not exposing myself to those risks specific risks but I you know thinking back I've got a daughter and thinking back to my education and understanding of the fact that the world was not a safe place for me um that I used to walk down the middle of my my first

move to London I used to walk down the middle of the road with my keys in my hand um so I wasn't next to a car so no one could jump out the car but I had my keys so I could stab someone in the eye as if I could stab someone in the eye I don't know quite what I was thinking we all do it yeah we all do it and I think that um and I have been in some situations where I've you know um been very scared and I think I am going to have to unless things fundamentally change because I unfortunately I don't think there's enough time for them to have that conversation with my daughter about the fact that there are certain things that you have to do to make sure you're not in a vulnerable position in that way. And even then you're still vulnerable. And I'm sorry about that.

This shouldn't be OK. It can be quite annoying, though, in the sense that when you realise basically your hands are tied and there's not a lot you can do about it, apart from going out and educating the entire world. And I'm not really sure anybody has the time for that but but no yeah I don't know I yeah I don't I I resent not feeling safe I feel like I'm old enough I've been enough and I've been through enough to be able to be given that right and respect but I still don't have it and that I find very anger making well when you're not being angry you're entertaining us for which we are grateful uh this this this program is is coming out uh in that fog when you're not being angry, you're entertaining us, for which we are grateful. This programme is coming out in that fog when you don't know the day of the week between Christmas and New Year.

I've got to ask you this. Do you watch the Queen's speech on Christmas Day? Do you toast her with a glass of something fizzy? No. I think maybe I did once or twice when I was shooting the show. Okay, when you were playing the young Elizabeth. Yeah, but I might do this year. She's had a terrible year.

So I might do this year. But I always seem to miss it. I don't know what I'm doing, but it always seems to pass me by. I've just got this image of you, Olivia Colman, Imelda Staunton, the clock stopping just ahead of three o'clock and standing there looking, you know, face to face, profile to profile. I hope you have a lovely Christmas. Thank you so much. Oh, and I you. Keep doing what you do. I love it so much. Well, biggest fan. We feel completely the same and keep playing these women that perhaps need

a different look at. Claire Foy, thank you very much. Thank you. And a very British scandal will start on BBC One on Boxing Day. Huge thanks to Claire Foy there for her generosity and sharing so much with us. A lot of you looking forward to that already. A message that's come in saying, a brilliant actor, Claire Foy, a new national treasure in the making. Cannot wait to see this.

And also just a message here from Catherine saying, please don't forget, we're talking about BBC sports personality of the year, please don't forget Rachel Blackmore, who won the BBC World Sports Star of the Year last night, Irish jockey who won both the Cheltenham Gold Cup and the Grand National this year. Good to get her name. And of course, Catherine, thank you for helping me.

I'm all the better for your messages. So do keep them coming. Now, if you're a fan of comedy and of programmes such as Have I Got News For You, then you'll know the work of the Scottish comedian Jane Godley, probably best known most recently for her parody voiceovers of Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, of those daily press briefings during lockdown.

But what you may not know is that just a few weeks ago, Jane was forced to cut short her UK tour when diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She shared the news with her fans on Twitter, where she's prolific and shares a lot of her sketches and where she also had to face the music recently after being accused of racist tweets for which she apologised. Jane Godley, it's been quite the year. Yes, extreme pain. And I was walking through from Leicester Square Theatre to the hotel. And I remember stopping in the street and thinking, there's definitely something wrong with me.

I had, you know, this bloating pain in my stomach. And I kept, you know, as a woman, I my stomach. But, you know, as a woman, I'm like, well, I'm 60. I'm a stand-up comedian. I'm an old woman with a backpack on. It's just that. But when I got back to Glasgow, I spoke to the doctor on the phone. And I live very close to the doctor. And she had me over at the very end of surgery and she had a feel around my tummy and she went oh I don't like the feeling of this got blood tests next day she called me and says there's markers in your blood that unfortunately indicate that that might allude to cancer and I'll and I'll never forget that moment I just went what because your brain doesn't almost always go to cancer.

And I had read a tweet from Julia Bradbury, who's going through her own journey. And she had mentioned the symptoms of ovarian cancer. And again, my brain went, oh, for goodness sake, you're not going to go straight to that, are you? And then the next day I was in the hospital getting a scan. And then a man sat me down, took my two hands and his hands, which was the most heart stopping moment in my life and said, you have a tumour on your ovary. And I had to phone my agent and say, I can't go on stage tonight. I can't, I can't do it and at the exact same time we all had covered so my

husband and my daughter both had covered and i was absolutely unaffected because obviously i've got the dna of an alsatian from the garbles and they too were incredibly sick so i didn't get time to process having cancer because I had to worry so much about them because they were so ill and it's just so now we're coming up to Christmas and I'm like yeah this has been quite the year yeah well we'll come to a bit more of your year in just a moment but I think what you're saying about Julia Bradbury that's very important because she actually gave her first broadcast interview to me on this program in light of her diagnosis because she wanted to talk to women and she wanted to spread the message of awareness and I think that that that ability for you to learn from her messages is something quite striking and and actually shows the power of good on social media yeah absolutely um and and

the symptoms that I had were the symptoms that she had mentioned which was bloating having to go to the loo a lot and the stomach pain feeling full when you're eating I just couldn't really get a full meal I just I felt full all the time and I had a sharp pain in my tummy when I did eat too much because I'm thinking I can eat a whole dinner no you can't so now because I had Covid I couldn't get the operation and I can't get it until January the 6th I'm going in for a full hysterectomy and lymph nodes removal I'm absolutely terrified like everybody else who's facing a major operation you you just run through your head so many scenarios and you have all this thing you have to be brave you have to be strong yeah and I'm trying

to be all those things and I'm trying to keep mentioning how it feels on social media and you know raise awareness hoping that other women will see the message and go oh goodness that's what that is so it it's frightening I mean and I wake up sorry go on I just I wake up every morning and there's like two seconds in my brain and then I go I've got cancer and and it kicks in it's a really strange feeling and my daughter and I last night we had a laugh because we decided to organise my funeral if it happened. And she's also a comedian. So we're trying to keep things light and laugh and joke about it. But there is that undercurrent feeling of fear.

There's just the constant fear. You talked about social media. I mean, it's a place for you to share a lot of your work, to share this sort of message. But it's also a place where you've had to apologise this year because of tweets that were unearthed that you sent out between 2011 and 2017 that were described as racist, derogatory about people with disabilities. You've apologised. But just in case people miss this,

you, for instance, described the Destiny Child singer Kelly Ronan, who was a judge on X Factor as a horsey-faced black woman. You talked about her as the black horse from the USA. And if Kelly talks like a ghetto blaster, racist black chick, I'm going to punch her rice and peas just to give our listeners a flavour. They might not be as avid on Twitter as you are. You did apologise. You'd also been the face of a Scottish public health campaign

for which you gave the money back, or rather gave money to charity that you earned. Yeah. Why did you send those messages in the first place? It was in 2011 and I thought I was being funny. I mean, I have absolutely profusely apologised and I will until the day I die, which hopefully is a long time away. It was back in 2011 when I thought, I just genuinely thought,

people know I'm not racist, so I can say stupid things. And it's terrible I was never raised or believed in any racist ideology I've supported Black Lives Matter I've stood up for refugees I've argued for the rights of immigrants I protested Trump I protested against Trump and I still support any anti-racism movement it was I have absolutely no idea but it's astonishing that I'm held to a higher standard than any certain politician. I apologise and I will apologise profusely.

I suppose it's just people want to know what's driving that sort of message. You also were messaging about 50 Cent. I believe he actually replied to you. I mean, were you just trying to get more followers or stoke anger? I don't know. It's trying to understand what what drives people in that moment actually well i was actually commenting um on the x factor and i was you think well people know i'm not racist so i can say silly things which that's a problem as a stupid

old white woman we really need to know that we can be against racism which i am and i will always protest against racism i will always you know And I will always protest against racism. I will always, you know, fight for the rights of immigrants and refugees. But you have to be careful of your lazy, stereotype, racist language and not just think you can get away with that. That's the lesson I've learned. And I will always stand up for the rights of black people. I will always support Black Lives Matter, like I always did.

Do you feel like you've been able to repair any of those bonds with people who perhaps weren't expecting any such language from you and those who were very offended and hurt by those comments? The people who were offended and hurt, I've got absolutely every right to be offended and hurt at what I said. If you say racist things and you say hurtful things to other people, you have to apologise. I mean, I'm still waiting apologies for the other people who have done it, but that's not the point. The point is, if you make people feel hurt and othered, it's your absolute right to apologise.

And I profusely apologise for it. And if people can't accept my apology, that's their right not to. It's my right to understand why I behave like that and re-educate myself never to speak like that ever again. And, you know, I have to understand that people get hurt. And as a comedian, if you think you're an edgelord and outspoken, you have to take responsibility for your words.

And I'm hoping, I'm hoping that every single minister that wrote letters of campaign to get me sacked the panto and tried to you know the Scottish Tories of the campaign to get me sacked from the whole tour I hope they all take responsibility for their words because I took responsibility for mine because you're you're a Scottish National Party supporter is that right yes yes just you've got to get people up to speed with I suppose, you and your background and your politics. So you're saying there was some politics coming back towards you and about your work. You are hoping to to keep going in terms of your comedy. I know after your procedure of which, of course, you have to wait and see how you are doing afterwards.

I suppose it's just good to be able to ask you as someone who has had this experience. Do you think do you think we're able to forgive, move on, listen to people, and I suppose not be cancelled? Cancelled is talked about a lot. Well, Roman Polanski's still making films. People get forgiven. There are comedians who have done really horrendous things and are still out on tour. I don't know about cancelled culture.

I don't understand why there's double standards of it. The people who were so angry at me, quite rightly so, are against cancel culture, but they want me cancelled. So there's so many double standards. But at the end of the day, take responsibility for what you say. And if it upsets people, they've got every right to be upset. And if people who were fans of mine don't want to come back to my shows, then that's their right. But it's also my right to be upset. And if people who are fans of mine don't want to come back to my shows, then that's their right.

But it's also my right to apologise and explain the stupidity of me. And as I say, I would love it if somebody could explain how sitting politicians are held to a higher standard than me. Well, I always like to hold politicians to high standards when I can get them on to come on to any of the programmes I host. Janie Godley, thank you very much. And I love you for that. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for talking to us so openly today about every aspect of your life and the year that was. All the best for the procedure next year. Janie Godley there.

Thank you so much. Thank you. A message just coming in here with regards to Christmas and your plans and where you're at with all of this. A message here from Angela, a hero now of mine. I often remind non-mask wearing people on public transport about wearing one. I do it politely, aware they may be exempt, but I find that most people reach into their pocket

and put a mask on. I recently got an entire male basketball squad on the tube to do this. I figured they couldn't all be exempt. One reached into his rucksack, brought out a pack of face masks, which were handed to those who'd forgotten theirs. We need to keep others safe and ourselves

too. Angela, thank you very much for that. We did have a very interesting conversation, I remember, towards the start of the year about how you have those difficult conversations, should you have those difficult conversations. I feel like we're back at that point, so thank you very much for that message indeed. Well, my next guest has a big week with a career in space spanning

almost two decades. Edwina Paisley has designed and tested missiles to interplanetary spacecraft. She's the director of space programs at the telecommunications company in Mossart. And she this week is responsible for a major launch from Japan where she joins me live. Good morning, Edwina. What's happening this week? Hi, good morning. Thank you for having me on. This week is a very big week because we are launching the most complex, most advanced, most sophisticated telecommunications satellite that's ever been built and ever been launched. It's called the Inmarsat 6F1 spacecraft. It's a mobile communications spacecraft. So what it does is it provides mobile communications to people around the world. So you can think of enabling technologies like flying taxis, like better Zoom calls between families, better connectivity, internet of things, all that kind of thing.

So Inmarsat is a company that is known for mobile communications. We have a global fleet of 14 satellites in orbit around the Earth. and we use those to ensure that we can provide connectivity really anywhere on the globe. And we do so using this very specific and very ornate set of spacecraft that we own and manage around. So the one this week is going to do what? So the one this week is specifically for, again, our mobile communications. And what it does is it adds and augments our existing capability in two different ways. We have a couple of frequencies on board. We call them payloads. But essentially it enables additional capability for this fast mobile communications that we have, which is what

we call K-band. And it also adds additional global capacity for our maritime safety services, which is what we call L-band or our ALIRA services. So it's actually a two-in-one type of spacecraft. That's what makes it so exciting. It's got a lot in it. You design this to go and you don't see it again, but you know every bit of it. I mean, it must be something that you know so well. Oh, it's like your own child.

You know every single centimeter of the spacecraft and you've seen it, you know, the inside, the outside. You've seen it go through all the different test sequences. So really you have, you know, you do build this emotional attachment

to this thing that's the size of a London double-decker bus. And it's just such an honour and a huge pleasure to be here, to be with it and essentially to see it go into space. What's that like? Most people don't have any experience of seeing something that they've designed launch into space. What's the launch going to be like? Oh, the launch is great. It's really the most climactic portion of an aerospace engineer's career is to see and hear and feel a launch. It's really indescribable what a launch is like. It's the same sound as 20 jet engines all firing at the same time.

It's incredible. It's so loud that you feel it in every single cell of your body because it vibrates so much. And the acoustics are so incredible. And it's just a proud, proud moment. And you see that spacecraft that you've worked on fly up into the air. And you know that you might not see it again, but you will speak to it for the next 20 years. So at least you've got that. It's like a child that's left the home and you just know that they'll ring you every now and then. They'll send a few emails and messages here and there. And in terms of, I know a big part of what you want to do as well is inspire other women

to get into your line of work. How's progress on that front? It's going really well, in fact. And over the course of the last 20 years, I've definitely seen a huge increase in the number of women who are in aerospace. I'm very proud to say that the team that's been involved on the NRSAT side developing the NRSAT-6 spacecraft, we are more than 50% women on the team, which is practically unheard of. And NRSAT has a really wonderful, wonderful recruitment process. We have a lot of women in leadership positions.

So it's really exciting to be able to share that kind of career with fellow women and to help each other throughout and all grow together. So it's a very nice feeling to see that we're progressing so positively. Any plans to follow your baby into space, actually make the journey? I would love to. If anyone gave me a ticket to go up, I would be up there just to say hello. Hi. Remember me. So you're in Japan, and it's hopefully going to happen this week.

Yes, that's correct. So I'm in Japan right now. We're launching from an island called Tanegashima Island, which is on the southernmost coast of Japan. It's known to be the most beautiful launch site in the world. If you have an opportunity to Google it, please do. It's got to be the most beautiful launch site in the world. If you have an opportunity to Google it, please do. It's got a huge private beach in front. It is just gorgeous. So we are launching from Japan and the launch window is on the 22nd of December at 14.33 UK time. So if you do get a chance to watch, our link is on the website. Please do. It's going to be a really great, great launch.

Well, all the best for it. Edwina Paisley, thank you very much for talking to us today. A message just come in from Jean, who is listening to Janie Godley, the comedian, just then talking about apologies, saying an apology from something said in 2011 has to be accepted. We all need to learn and move on. This is a century of transition. And other messages coming in with regards to your plans and how things are going. One here saying,

we had a big turkey for 10 people for our usual big Christmas, but my daughter and our beautiful tiny grandson have cancelled their flights from Spain for fear of Omicron. Others have cancelled because they're COVID positive. It leaves my husband, younger daughter,

all triply boosted, and myself in our Christmas bubble. So sad not to see our grandson, but happy we are still safe. Now looking for neighbours on their own who would like a Christmas dinner delivered. What a lovely message. And a lot of food there as well. Again, you may be able to relate to that, especially if you're the person putting on Christmas this year.

But for many of us, the Christmas period is a time of reflection when it comes to our relationships, be it a parent we no longer speak to or perhaps one we've lost over the years. The father daughter relationship can be for some a difficult one, but for others, a total joy. Karen Teasdale Robson from Blaydon near Newcastle upon Tyne has gone to extraordinary lengths to make sure her father, Brian, is currently in a care home, isn't forgotten when he dies. Her dad, for the majority of his life, was a poet and songwriter, but an assault 10 years ago left him with a brain injury and difficulties in communicating. He contracted COVID-19 early this year

and care workers told Karen to prepare for the worst. In the hope of getting her dad's work the recognition he had wanted, Karen rediscovered a lullaby he had written her almost 60 years ago and appealed for the public's help in re-recording it. Karen joins me now to talk about her dad and that song, Little Girl. Karen, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for being with us. I thought we'd start just hearing about your dad, first of all. What was he like growing up and when you were younger?

My dad was lovely. He was actually very involved. he undertook lots of things that um actually more things than a typical family would undertake because my mom had severe health problems and he was very attentive to you then as a result of that oh yes he was he was very involved he you know he did work but he would come home from work to take me to doctors or dentists or anything like that. In fact, my dad was, my mum and dad rolled into one. And he was a poet? He was a poet, yes. He started writing poetry at only eight years old. And he wrote a very short poem called Par Marti. And he won a competition with that um it was pa in the

restaurant ordering a meal of mashed potatoes cabbage and veal ma says aren't we lucky can't you see at the top of the menu is pa marty so about about a lot of different topics not just about the family here oh goodness yes my dad could turn his hand to anything it was actually a classical poet as time got on um you know and his career started at eight years old and his writing career was abruptly stopped at the age of 79 years old when he was assaulted and my dad was actually I haven't made this public yet but he was actually a victim of domestic violence. Right. OK, well, I mean, it's something to, of course, be able to feel like you can share here with us on the programme. But I know we can't go into too many details about that.

But in terms of his ability to share his work, I know that this is what you've been focusing on. And what in particular, which is the song that you've wanted to get out there and you appeal to the public well i put an appeal out for a song called little girl which my dad had written for me i was only nine months old and my mom was in hospital and i put the appeal out to a local radio station and from that appeal um a man called tony wilson came forward from sunderland college a music degree lecturer and he and his students helped me to make my dad's dream come true to release this song let's play a a short clip of the original um and and then alongside the new you'll obviously hear the difference the

college students have obviously done a very good job here at matching the original but I think it's lovely to be able to hear it at this point so let's have a listen. But she can't sleep when the lights are low Till I sing her this song It's a love song to A little girl who is feeling blue A lullaby that could apply to you Whenever things go wrong Don't you cry little girl Because you're my little girl

You set my heart in a whirl Please go to sleep How does that make you feel, hearing that? I cry every time I hear it. Every time I hear my dad's voice as well, the first one you played. It's lovely to know that people have came forward to help release this song which is now obviously Brian and the Buttercups, Little Girl by Brian and the

Buttercups but of course I weep every time I hear it because my dad can no longer sing being brain injured and that was the whole point of bringing the song out in the first place so that somebody could sing it to him. Yeah and we should say and I did mention this

but you did appeal to the people of Newcastle via BBC Radio Newcastle and what was the response like I did it was absolutely amazing I was absolutely thrilled when there was a response and that they came forward so quickly um to help bring this song out so that my dad can realise his dream while he's still alive. And has he been able to hear it? He has been able to hear it. There's a portal in his room in the brain injury unit where he lives. And I was allowed to watch his response. And when we played the finished version to him, sorry, the finished version to him,

my dad actually kissed his own hand. He was unable to him my dad actually kissed his own hand he was unable to speak but he kissed his own hand and i know that was his way of saying thank you and to say that he loved it of course what are you going to do with it now what do you hope well it's gone global actually it's being heard all around the world and I'm keeping my dad up to date and letting him know everything that's going on and I'm getting messages from lots of different people saying they absolutely love the song and of course the song is timeless and people are contacting me telling me that they're singing it to their little girls. And that's wonderful in itself, that my dad's put something so beautiful into the world. Was he able, when he was younger, to kind of get any recognition or wider audience?

Well, that's another story on its own, to be honest. And I'm actually writing a book about it. But no, he didn't. And he was quite reclusive too. But there are other reasons why he didn't and he was quite reclusive too and but there are other reasons why he didn't put himself forward you know well he's got you to do that now and i suppose just to bring our conversation full circle on the program we've got lots of people obviously getting in touch about family this christmas and plans and and how it's all going and and we mustn't forget

those who are like your father in care yes that's right and it's wonderful that this has came out this christmas it was only a few years ago when i'd gone into the brain injury unit to see my dad and i'd noticed a signature in the book beside my dad's name and it was a signature from a lady from the church. And I asked the nurse, you know, I said, who has been to see my dad? My dad didn't have any other visitors. And now this Christmas, everybody's got to know my dad. You've given him notoriety for a great reason, I suppose, at this time. And that's a wonderful gift, I suppose, at Christmas for him.

Oh, absolutely. this time um and that's a wonderful gift I suppose at Christmas for him oh absolutely and he is fully aware of it being played and what people are saying and I pass on every message to him to let him know that his work hasn't been forgotten I had originally managed to get his books um sermons in stones and books and books placed into Oxford University and Cambridge University but to bring this song out just makes everything fantastic. Thank you so much for for being able to share it with us today and your reaction to it and a bit of the story behind it Karen Teasdale Robson all the best to you Merry Christmas when you get there and however you you get to spend it all the best to you and yours. Thank you and to you get there and however you get to spend it. All the best to you and yours.

Thank you. And to you and yours and to everyone who's been on the show today. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. And thank you for giving me the chance to come on here. No worries at all. All the best, Karen. And thank you for many of your messages today with regard to your plans and and how you're kind of navigating this time. Stephanie says maybe we should have separate carriages for people who choose not to wear masks on a train, a suggestion there. And also the idea of what's going on in your particular family and people wanting everybody to take personal responsibility as well as some of you wanting new rules from the government. We'll follow that story. Thanks for your company. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.