Woman's Hour - Claire Waxman, Miranda Raison, Women in gaming

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

A new report by London’s Victims’ Commissioner, Claire Waxman, says that victims are being forced to quit the criminal justice system in huge numbers amid record court delays and traumatic process. She joins Nuala McGovern in the Woman’s Hour studio to explain why they are saying 'there is a near total failure in seeing offenders brought to justice'.What are your attitudes towards money and specifically saving it, rather than spending it? Are you confidently playing the markets or are you still tucking it away under the mattress for a rainy day? Traditionally women have been thought of as risk-averse when it comes to putting their money into stocks and shares. Is that about to change? And is there such a thing as the 'gender investment gap'? To discuss women's attitudes towards investing we hear from Dr. Sara Reis, deputy director and head of policy and research at the Women's Budget Group think tank. Actor Miranda Raison has played numerous stage, screen and TV roles including the iconic Jean Seberg and Anne Boleyn but now takes on the role of the legendary Victorian actress Ellen Terry in a new play by David Hare - Grace Pervades at the Theatre Royal Bath. It tells the story of her relationship with Henry Irving, played by Ralph Fiennes, the greatest stars of the Victorian stage. Miranda discusses her latest role.News of fresh guidance from the government for relationships, sex and health education in schools. Responding, to what it says, is an increase in the harmful and misogynistic content, children are exposed to online. According to recent research, when asked about just the past week, over a third of pupils aged 11-19 had heard comments that made them worry about girls' safety, and more than half witnessed comments they would describe as misogynistic. The BBC's Education Editor Branwen Jeffreys updates us.Despite making up almost half of gaming audiences, just 30% of games industry workers are women. In the next part of our series on women and gaming, we're finding out why this is and what can be done to get more women into the industry. Charu Desodt, who was the first female engineer at Sony's London studio in 1999, and Tara Mustapha, founder of Code Coven, discuss. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Cuba's Minister of Labour has resigned after claiming that there are no beggars on the Caribbean island. That's just one of the myths surrounding the communist-led country. So what's life really like there? I'm William Lee Adams. On What in the World, we're lifting the veil on a frequently misunderstood country. What in the World? is an award-winning podcast from the BBC World Service. We go in depth on a different topic every weekday in under 15 minutes. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio radio podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, today, London's independent victims commissioner, Clare Waxman, is with us. Her new report cites a near total failure in seeing offenders brought to justice. We'll hear why. Also on the programme, the actor Miranda Raisen. Miranda is playing the Victorian actor Ellen Terry in David Hare's new play, Grace Pervades.

It is a fascinating character. We're going to hear all about her. Also, you might have seen the education secretary, Brigid Phillipson, has defended not using age limits in the government's new guidance around sex education in England. We're going to hear more about the updated guidance from the BBC's education editor, that's Branwen Jeffreys.

Our gaming series continues. Today we hear from women in the industry who develop games. They number about 30% of the industry, even though almost half of gamers are women, as we've been hearing this week. Plus, the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, has said that for too long, investing in stocks and shares has been presented in too negative a light and she wants to support would-be investors. Now there is a gender gap when it comes to retail investing. So what does her announcement mean for women? We'll discuss all that too. If you'd like to comment on any of the

discussions taking place on this program you can text us the number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Womens Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 03 700 100 444. But let me begin indeed with the Victims' Commissioner Claire Waxman. There's been a fair amount of coverage recently discussing the large numbers of people currently facing record court delays and also what can be done to address the situation. There was the suggestion you might have seen by Sir Brian Levinson that was last week to have judge-only trials for certain cases such as fraud and bribery. Well the new report today published by London's Independent Victims Commissioner

Well, the new report today published by London's Independent Victims Commissioner Claire Waxman, she's OBE and also for the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime, describes what they are calling a near total failure in seeing offenders brought to justice. Now focusing at the impact on victims of these delays, the report says 40% drop out of the process after reporting with many feeling forced out and more victims withdrawing post-charge withdrawal being higher in the case of violence against women and girls. So think about that just post-charge. I'm pleased to say we have Claire Waxman here with me in the Women's Air Studio.

Good morning. Good morning. Let's go to that term that I have said about a total failure in seeing offenders brought to justice. The stats you use to illustrate your case are not good but total failure it's very strong. It is very strong but unfortunately that's that's what we're seeing. Firstly I mean nationally you only have to look at the crime survey to see that four in ten crimes only four in ten crimes are actually reported to the police. Then if you look at the research I've published today, we looked at over 270,000 cases reported to the Met Police over a period between 21 and 22 and on average

40% of those victims were withdrawing from the process before a charging decision. We then see about 52% of those cases being closed for other reasons, might be evidential difficulties, or maybe suspect hasn't been identified. So you can see how very few people, how very few victims are actually still in the system. And then post-charge, we were able to look at

CPS, Crown Prosecution Service, data over the last five years. And that victim attrition data sort of fluctuated between 18 and 33%. So it is a near total failure to deliver justice for victims, not just in London, but in this country. In your summary, you say despite the seemingly obvious nature of why victims are withdrawing,

and we can talk about that, it became evident there was a disconnect between what you were hearing from justice agencies and what victims had to say. What is that disconnect? So it was very interesting, very early on in this role I did a big piece of research around rape and looking at the poor investigation, prosecution and support for rape victims. And what we were often hearing is the victims chose not to support. The police would say to us, they chose to withdraw and not support. What we then heard from victims and support agencies

that were working with victims was a very different story. Some saying, I would support if I was given the right information, the right support, if I felt safe. Others were saying they weren't even aware that they were no longer supporting the investigation. They thought the case was still ongoing. the right support, if I felt safe. Others were saying they weren't even aware that they were no longer supporting the investigation, they thought the case was still ongoing. So it really, there was a disconnect between what the police were telling me and criminal justice agencies and what we were hearing from victims,

survivors and those supporting them. That's why I chose to do this research, to really understand are victims withdrawing, why are they withdrawing and when. You say also that with withdrawal for example it's higher in cases of violence against women and girls with 59% of victims of domestic abuse withdrawing from the justice system and in cases of rape in domestic abuse the withdrawal rate is as high as 74%. How do you understand those statistics, particularly with those cases, those types of cases? Yeah, so the research really gave us insight into why, and I think this is the really important bit for not just the Met but policing across this country and for the wider criminal justice system.

Domestic abuse victims, it takes a huge amount of courage to come forward and report. Many are withdrawing very early on, sometimes on the same day or within the first few weeks. That's because they are not feeling safe and secure in the process. The key thing for domestic abuse victims is to be able to feel safe and protected. And what we were hearing is they weren't getting the right or swift enough response from the police. Protection orders weren't being put in place quick enough and they just felt that being in the justice process put them at more risk. Earlier this morning I spoke to a woman who we are calling Barbara and she talked about her experience with the Metropolitan Police in London. I do want to let you know you

may find her experience distressing. I began by asking Barbara why she went to the police. I was controlled and raped by my ex-partner on multiple occasions for a couple of years. It took me a really long time to kind of realise what had happened. It was actually a BBC news piece that I saw around the course of control that kind of made me realise what was happening to me and that is when I reported it to the police. And how did the police respond? So when I first reported it the police attended my house kind of out of the blue they just rocked up fully suited and booted which was quite scary but they they investigated and they charged him with coercive control.

Rape was dropped at that point. And we went to magistrate's court for coercive control where he was found not guilty. After the trial, I then had a few complaints about how the police handled my case. They were not very communicative. They didn't give me the rights that a victim of rape or course of control kind of are allowed to have. So it came actually out within that complaint

that they did not investigate my rape properly and they offered to reinvestigate it. And you decided to go ahead with that reinvestigation at that point? I did, yes. So they had organized for someone to ring me at a given time in the day, and we would discuss how they would start to reinvestigate the rape. They never called me at that time. And instead, a police officer rang me randomly a couple of days later, when I was in the middle of work, and started kind of fully delving into the questions that they of course need to ask, but I was in the middle of meetings, I had not prepared anything, and I think one of his first questions was, you know, right, so tell me, was it an anal rape, a vaginal rape, what was it?

Which was incredibly kind of shocking and it just completely re-traumatized me again. He then completely pressured me to find evidence for him at that point whilst I was on the phone with him. So a lot of the rapes for me happened in hotel rooms so he wanted receipts. And so I was very kind of panicked and stressed looking for those receipts on that phone call with him at that stage. I just kind of froze. I did what he asked me to do. I finished the

phone call in the end and I said, you know, I'll try and find these afterwards and I'll send them to you. But after kind of the way that he behaved, I decided that I did not want to go ahead with this again. Was that difficult to make that decision? Just talk me through a little bit of your thought process of why you were like, I'm not gonna go ahead with this. Yeah, so having been through the system once, I had the benefit of knowing how terrible it is.

It is soul destroying. It's not a process that you as a human want to go through. So thinking around that I'd have to go through that again, I had clearly realized at this point that the police had not learned from any of the failures that were made in my original case. And also knowing that the prosecution rate is, you know, what, 1% at the moment.

So if I put myself through an awful investigation again, if I were to get to court, I knew that the chances of a conviction would be incredibly low. But it was mainly just, you know, understanding how panicked and how distressed I felt with just one phone call and just reminding myself that it was going to be like that again and again and again for however many years it took them to investigate this again. So you needed to make that decision for you. I needed to make that decision for my mental health. Yeah, at that point. But I'm wondering what the impact was of withdrawing your case and

you've explained why, but there will be implications no doubt. Yeah I think a bit of me felt that the police was gonna think that I was lying because I you know I would stop this process and I was terrified of that but also just knowing that he was gonna walk free and whilst that that was already going to be a huge you know a huge chance that he would be walking free anyway, knowing our system, knowing that I haven't done everything that I could have done, really was hard. It feels like I've left a stone unturned. And now, I mean, when you think about from that time that you withdrew your case until now,

do you feel it still? Yeah. Every now and again, I wake up and I go, no, I need to go ahead with this case. But I need to think of me and my mental health. And I know where my previous case put me, which was on suicide risk. So it is better for me to not do it. Instead, I talk about my experience and I campaign in the hope that the system gets better. But right now, for me and my safety, I can't go ahead with this case again. This report from the London Independent Victims Commissioner shows 59% of victims of domestic

abuse withdraw from the justice system. In cases of rape and domestic abuse, the withdrawal rate is 74%. I'm wondering what you think of those figures. Doesn't surprise me. Reporting a ex-partner or partner is incredibly terrifying and from my experience with the police, the police does not protect you, does not give you the proper support that you need and the justice system hasn't got the right systems in place to help support and protect victims. So often, you know, it's

better for the victim to just step away, not to report and to try and move on with their lives rather than going through the system. Thanks very much to the woman we're calling Barbara. For her account there, I realize some of you may find her experience distressing. If you are affected by anything you're hearing, you can go to the BBC Action Line page where you will find links to support. I know The Met are keen to highlight for anyone who wants to approach them to report that they've made drastic improvements since the report was commissioned, Claire. They say they've driven up charges to get justice for victims, worked in an earnest way on many recommendations already, and they say ultimately they need the criminal justice system to work faster and better for victims. But your response to Barbara's experience?

I know it'll be shocking to viewers, sadly it's not shocking to me. These are the cases I hear day in day out, it's what drives my work, it gives me the insight into where the failings are, why I commission these sorts of big pieces of research. And I know Barbara, I've worked with her, so I saw directly the failings on her case. And I think she's eloquently expressed what this research has captured really. It's just that lack of firstly, understand sensitivity and understanding trauma and what's in front of you with a victim and how much courage it takes for anyone to come forward and report, but in particular

when you're trying to report a partner or an ex-partner, when it's a violence against women or girl offence or a male rape for example, we spoke to male victims as part of this research. So it takes a huge amount of courage for someone to come forward. And then if the person that you've come to, the police, are not giving you the reassurance and the confidence you need and the security you need to stay in the process, and it's all very chaotic and nobody updates you and nobody gives you access to support or the right information, the very basics that should be provided to victims in this country. There's no surprise why so many just choose to quit and leave because as Barbara rightly said, she needs to make a decision to prioritize her mental health. Because too many victims

I speak to and survivors say the same, the criminal justice system breaks them. And that's devastating and we as a country, this government, we have to improve that. Some of the responses, for example the Metropolitan Police, the Assistant Commissioner Pippa Mills said that the Met is relentlessly bearing down on perpetrators to secure justice for victims. They said to improve victims experience that they are driving up charges for serious offenses including rape and serious sexual assault, developing a new victim strategy, rolling out more training, have launched a new online service, leaflets, dedicated phone lines to

increase the frequency and quality of communication. They do say there is more cases proceeding through courts. London has over a hundred trials scheduled for 2029 and they understand the delays are intolerable for victims waiting for closure from these experiences and they talk about a collective effort from government partners and the criminal justice system they say to reform and reverse years of decline. Your response to some of those initiatives? So I work very closely with the Met so I'm very aware of all those initiatives and they're in progress they're not they're not final and

they've still got quite a lot of work, I'd say they're at the start of it. Yes, they've got a new victim focus test that we helped bring in a couple of years ago. Is it working well enough for victims? No, that training needs to be rolled out, but the initiative is there. They are absolutely trying to push through more rape charges and there they do face a battle of the failings and the delays in the wider criminal justice system. We do have cases being listed in 2029 in London that is deterring victims from staying in the process.

So the police do have to have those very difficult early conversations to advise victims how long it's going to take and that does deter them. Well you know you remind me of one thing in your report that victims say they were dissuaded by the police at times from entering the justice process. Yes. So that is sometimes the officers are giving far too much information far too early on when someone's just decided to come forward and report. If you're then told at that point when you're the most vulnerable, you're in shock, you've got trauma, you're not quite sure what lies ahead of you, do you want to do this? And they say, it's very difficult, takes a long time to get a charging decision. We heard stories of them saying I've got

worse cases that didn't get a conviction and I had more evidence than this. So very negative. Now some are doing it, I think police officers, from a place of potential care, but others, I suspect, are doing it from a place of managing caseloads. And you know, if I say all this, this case is gone and I can move on to the next. And that talks about the stretch resources of policing. Alex Davies Jones, the Minister for Victims of Violence Against Women and Girls, has said, we inherited a court system on its knees with a record and rising backlog of cases,

victims and survivors of sexual abuse have been paying the price for too long, enduring unimaginable waits, they say, for the day in court. This is no less than a national emergency, they say. Now, the proposal, I mentioned this at the top, Sir Brian Levinson put forward his proposals, Alex Davies Jones says, for a once in a generation reform for our courts to deliver swifter justice for victims and help us on our mission to have violence against women and girls. They say they'll respond in the autumn. They also thank you for the research that has been done.

But I'm wondering on that point, Sir Brian Levinson put forward judge-only trials for certain cases such as fraud and bribery and that would potentially reduce the backlog of cases in criminal courts. Something you're in favour of? I work very closely with Sir Brian Levinson on this court reform. I very much welcomed it. We need to look at radical reforms in order to reduce this ever-increasing record Crown Court backlog. I have got victims, rape victims, waiting seven years. It's

unacceptable from time reporting to getting into court. We can't do that to people. It's inhumane. So I will very much support government. I think looking at some of the ideas he's put forward, we need to be taking some of the cases out of the Crown Court that don't need to be in there and making sure that we're dealing with the most serious cases far swifter and that we're getting swifter justice outcomes. But what I would say to government is that that's going to take time to make those changes and we have an emergency crisis, especially in London here and now, and we need some changes now.

The government talks about always their plan for change, that they're going to turn it around and restore faith in the justice system. Do you have faith? I have faith that we have a government that is willing to do things differently and radically. There's a sentencing review, the Crown Court review. They need to do something radical in the space of victims.

We need to radically transform the way we support victims through the criminal justice system. And I've long called for a victim care hub. This government must explore that idea. Without it, I fear that we will continue to see victims quit the justice process and we will not be able to have violence against women and girls in the next 10 years. Victim care hub that would provide? That would provide a single point of contact for victims coming into the system.

So for cases like Barbara and many others, there would be someone there that would help you navigate so you don't feel it impacting your mental health. You don't feel the burden that you have to try and navigate this very complex, fragmented silo justice system. So it would work on behalf of all the criminal justice agencies, almost be the front face with all the wiring sitting behind it, but it would help navigate, make sure they get their rights, their needs are met and certainly would improve that experience that victims are having. London's Independent Victims Commissioner Claire Waxman, OBE, thanks so much for joining us on Woman's Hour.

Thank you. And again, if you have been affected by anything you've been hearing on the programme today, you can go to the BBC Action Line page where you will find links to help and support. I want to turn to the Mansion House speech yesterday in the City of London. There was the Chancellor Rachel Reeves who gave it. Let me read a little of what she said. She said, for too long we have presented investment into negative light. We've been quick to warn people of the risks without giving proper weight to the benefits. Our tangled system of financial advice and guidance has meant people can't get the right support to make decisions for themselves. So kind of pushing ahead with stocks and

shares when it comes to retail investing, so the regular Jo or Jane. Let me bring in our guest who has been looking at this and thinking about what it might mean for women and investing, Dr. Sarah Rees, Deputy Director and Head of Policy Research at the Women's Budget Group, Think Tank. Good morning, good to have you with us. Thanks for having me, good morning. So what did you think when you heard that? So I think when we hear a focus on investment and in savings, it's important to note that there is a gender wealth gap in this area. So that means that women have fewer savings, they have fewer financial wealth which means that they have less money invested in stocks and shares, they have less money invested in

savings, in ISIS, in all of those financial services. And so you know there is a wealth gap there and that comes from the fact that women you know have less ability to put money aside in the first place so and this this comes back to things that you know everyone knows about women usually earning less the gender pay gap and all of that that means that women have less money to put into these services and so when we have a focus in these types of services, when we have tax reliefs into this, into savings, into ISIS, these tend to disproportionately benefit people that are better off and this is particularly

men as well who are more likely to have money invested and saved into these services. So some of that is the actual cold hard cash how much you have to begin with. I do believe that women have more ices but don't play the more high risk games shall we say. Do you think women are more risk-averse than men when it comes to investing? There's certainly a difference there. And it's true that women, when they do have savings and when they do have money put into financial services,

they tend to be on the less risky types of services. And I think this comes possibly from two reasons. So one is I think women may tend to be more risk-averse because they often feel, I would say, underconfident when navigating financial services and financial opportunities and investments. And the other reason, which I think is also very important, is that given this sort of, I would say, vulnerability that women often experience in terms of in financial terms, in economic terms, it means that women may have to access cash, they have to access money when they are struggling. So the products with higher returns and I'm thinking here it's stocks, stocks and shares, Isis and in more with higher returns products, they tend to lock money away for longer periods

of time. And so I think for many women, they feel that they cannot afford to not be able to access money in the short term if they need to. Interesting also, Rachel Reeves, yesterday she said they were working with the Financial Conduct Authority to introduce a brand new type of targeted support for consumers ahead of the new financial year. Do you think that women need targeted financial advice that is different to men? I think targeted advice can be useful when women do have the money to invest and to put

into savings and so on. There are certainly things that are more likely in women's lives than men's. And I'm thinking here career breaks because of caring responsibilities, you know, when women have children, they tend to, if not go on big career breaks, but at least they have, you know, stuff like maternity leave and that sort of thing that can have an impact on the way they accumulate wealth. So targeted advice, targeted support in that sense, can be helpful. support that understands these

sort of differences as well in terms of careers. But I would really reiterate that a lot of the issues when we are looking at a gender investment gap or when we are looking at a gender wealth gap, these issues are more structural. So these, you know, if women don't have the money to invest in the first place, so they don't have the money to put into savings in the first place, then this targeted support is really, you know, it won't have the effects that the Chancellor would be hoping for. With one other aspect, which I saw there was some criticism of Rachel Reeves this morning in one of the papers talking about the fact that those that perhaps aren't as confident in investing being marketed to like the stocks and shares, Isis, you are not guaranteed a return on your money.

You can even lose money depending on how the market works. And so, you know, again, this is not guaranteed to make women and others better off in the longer term as well. So that's something to consider and keep in mind. And then the other, again, as I was saying in terms of focusing on the more structural things that need to change and when it comes to investments. And here I would also include the issue of pensions as well because we know that there is a big pension gap between women and men that's much higher than the gender pay gap.

You know, and the issues with this different and narrowing this different goes much further than encouraging people to invest in the, you know, in higher return products. And this is about a recognition of the things that make women less able to accumulate wealth. and this comes back to the fact that women tend to be more responsible for caring for others which then leaves them less time to go for higher paid jobs. I understand. So some of those structural issues really at the heart of it. Interesting. Thank you very much Dr. Sarah Rees, a Deputy Director and Head of Policy and Research at the heart of it. Interesting. Thank you very much, Dr. Sara Reiss, Deputy Director and Head of Policy and Research at the Women's Budget Group Think Tank.

Cuba's Minister of Labour has resigned after claiming that there are no beggars on the Caribbean island. That's just one of the myths surrounding the communist-led country. So what's life really like there? I'm William Lee Adams. On What in the World, we're lifting the veil on a frequently misunderstood country.

What in the World? is an award-winning podcast from the BBC World Service. We go in-depth on a different topic every weekday in under 15 minutes. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now, do you know the name Ellen Terry? Well, she was quite the woman, a legendary Victorian actress brought to life in a new play, Grace Pervades by David Hare. Miranda Raisin plays Ellen and she is with us this morning. Good morning. Hello. Good morning. Hi. Good to have you with us. Thank you for the early start as well because no doubt you have your nights are very full at the

moment. You're back on stage after nearly 10 years. How does it feel to be back treading the boards? Well, I have to be honest, at the first preview, there is a moment where the sort of the whole cast come through that this enormous door in dry ice. And I did come come out the door thinking very briefly, why do we do this to ourselves? But you know, I've just been reminded really how much I love it and it was always a huge part of what I did and then you know, I had my daughter and then by the time she was three it was Covid and then I had my son and now here we are. And here we are at Echolot. I was lucky enough to go to Bath to see Grace Pervades. I loved it. Beautiful evening down there and also to be immersed really in a relationship and characters

that I was not aware of at all. So perhaps we'll give people a little snapshot, Miranda, of what this is all about? Well, so Ellen Terry and Henry Irving, it's sort of hard to find comparable stars of today, but they were, especially as a partnership, but both as individuals and as a partnership, extraordinarily loved and revered as actors of the Victorian stage. Henry Irving, an actor manager. In fact, Ellen did herself become an actor manager after their partnership. But he was the sort of, there's a wonderful speech that Ray Fiennes does in the play

sort of explaining that he is literally sowing the seed of, I think it's S24, he's sowing up because there was a rip in the seed before playing Othello that night. I mean, he was the most hands on manager. And also interestingly about him, his best friend was, oh my goodness, who wrote Dracula. Bram Stoker. Irish.

Yes, exactly. Grew up down the road from me. We're getting specific. Oh really? Yeah. Irish. Yes, exactly. Grew up down the road from me. We're getting specific. Oh, really? Well, Bram Stoker was his best friend and he based the character of Dracula on Henry Irving. Sort of... I mean, character-wise, but physically as well. He was an extraordinary-looking man.

And he was very... He was a tragedy and he had a very kind of dark quality about him. And he saw Ellen Terry for her light and her humor. She was a great comic actress and just had this lovely sort of easy nature about her and he spotted her as being a good kind of foil to his darkness and it was yeah a partnership that endured for 20 years and so the play is based on their partnership and also on her two fascinating children who were both born out of wedlock, and one of whom, Edward Gordon Craig,

was the sort of front runner of kind of minimalist theater or sort of had an extraordinary kind of, there's a wonderful scene where he puts on a production of Hamlet in Moscow, with sort of, you know, very sort of surrealist. And then his sister, Edie, who was women's suffragettes, pioneering theater, theater was about getting bums on seats and getting a message across

and changing people's minds about women. So these four extraordinary people really are central to the play. I love that you stay away from the stage for a decade and then come back with Ray Fiennes. I know. Not too shabby. I know. I have to say it was quite a treat. Yeah, because I did have to audition. It wasn't a straight offer. I was sent the script and they did say, Jeremy Heron directing, David has written it,

Ray Fiennes has written it, and I thought, well, I better get it. Well, if I'm going to come back, I may as well make it worth it. But getting back to Ellen Terry and her two children that you mentioned there, she had them out of wedlock. And I remember that really surprising me as I was watching it, that this acclaimed Victorian actress had two, what would have been called at the time, illegitimate children, but that it didn't, like, obviously impact her success in the way that I might have thought it would have at that time.

Well, so it surprised me as well. And actually she was known as the scarlet woman of the Lyceum to begin with. And I think he did take a gamble on her in that way. She was living sort of in exile. Godwin, the father of her children, had left her by that point for a 19-year-old, although she was still in her 20s.

And she was living almost, I mean, really in poverty. And so, but she had this extraordinary resilience. I'm curious how she, I think she would have found a way to get out of it, you know, had she not been rescued by Irving, but he did. Charles Kean, who originated the phrase, Grace pervades the hussy about her, which is what the title is based on. He sort of plucked her from obscurity to an extent, but Henry Irving really then took this extraordinary and very long gamble

on her where they worked together for over 20 years. What I kept on wondering as well through the play, Miranda, was whether there was a romantic relationship between them, because usually when we see these stories, at the heart of it is a sexual or romantic relationship that plucks one from another world. But it didn't seem to be. I don't know. You tell me what you think. Well, I personally, I mean, the most in-depth

biography I read was Michael Holroyd's wonderful biography of them and of the children. And Holroyd is of the opinion that they did have a love affair. And I think it's sort of, you know, there's a scene in a dressing room where I think it sort of hinted at that there is something. But I think, not that I can speak for him, but I think David Hare has kept it sort of deliberately vague. He's almost kind of made it none of our business in a way as to exactly what physically happened between them. I mean, Ellen described Godwin, the father of her children,

as the love of her life, but described Henry Irving as the man of her life, even though she was married three times, none of which were Godwin. She had a colorful, wonderful life. But yes, I think she and Henry, my opinion is probably something happened and probably it didn't endure all that long. What do you think you might do next? I want to come to gaming in just a second with you. But do you think that you will remain with the stage? I know you're known for so many roles, whether it is on stage or screen, but I'm just wondering, has it piqued something in you?

Definitely it has. Definitely. And when I, so I did Anne Boleyn in 2010, and then I hadn't done a play for about five years or something. And I remember saying, well, I'll definitely do a play a year for you know forever and then of course you know have this huge gap. So I think it's such a kind of it's a brilliant sharpener of everything and I think it's helped me appreciate, I mean I love filming anyway but it's sort of really helped to kind of I think the balance of the two is the ideal. Yeah lovely really lovely. No the reason I mentioned gaming is because we're doing a series all this week on Woman's Hour, and I'm gonna be speaking to a few games developers

in a few minutes' time. But I was reading that you have extensive experience in voicing video games, like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Inquisition. What's that like? I love it. It's great, it's such a good way to, even Rage You Didn't Know was pent up. It's a. It's such a good way to even rage. You didn't know was pent up.

It's a great way to get it all out because you play these fantastic characters. I mean, Dragon Age is a great example. The character that I've voiced in several games, Cassandra, she's this warrior, you know, extraordinary. She's called a seeker and she's got these kind of extraordinary powers and this wonderful this wonderful turn of phrase and way of speaking. So you voice all these thousands of lines. And then you have hours and hours of sessions of like, OK, you've been stabbed. You've been shot.

You've been, you know, you're putting a knife into somebody. You're kind of, you know, so you'll spend a few hours of a session for a character just screaming, shouting, you know. and it's wonderful. I mean, sometimes during COVID particularly we had to sort of warn the neighbours, I'm recording a game. Because you can't possibly imagine what it will sound like. But you know, it's a wonderful thing to do. And I'm not personally a gamer, but I've been with other people, you know, playing those games and seeing them in action.

And I just think it's a great... It's a whole other world, isn't it? And I also learned, which I suppose I would have known if I'd thought about it, but I hadn't thought about it previously, is that there are many awards for voicing video games and that you have won them as well as being nominated many times. Yes, I have and actually a couple of them I sort of didn't know about so that's quite nice. That is the loveliest award to get, isn't it? That you get one that you haven't even nominated yourself for. Yes, exactly.

Thank you so much for coming on to let people know Miranda Raisin, as you've been hearing, plays Ellen Terry, the Victorian, the legendary Victorian actress, and it is continuing until I believe it's July 19th in Bath at the Theatre Royal. I loved it. Grace Pervades at the name of the play. Thanks so much. Come back to us next time with whatever project you might be working on. Thanks so much. Now, listener week. Yes, I want to remind you in case you haven't sent me. Thanks so much. And now, listener week. Yes, I want to remind you in case you haven't sent me your idea just yet. It begins on the 4th of August, so we need your ideas now. So many stories came in over the past couple of years that I've had the luck to present it.

One of the most moving stories we heard last year was Betty, who told us how an invite to a friend's house when she was a young child introduced her to a different way of life. In fact one she says that saved her. Maybe there's an experience you thought that could be something profound or uplifting that you'd like to share with us. It might inspire somebody else. It could even be something perhaps that you feel changed your life. You can text us 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. I can bring you news now of

fresh guidance from the government for relationships, sex and health education in schools. Responding to what it says is an increase in the harmful and misogynistic content that children are exposed to online. Joining me to tell us more is the BBC's education editor, Branwyn Jeffreys. Branwyn, welcome back to the programme. So what does this new guidance cover? So it covers everything that children need to learn and be supported to understand as they grow and develop and go through puberty and then grow into adulthood. So in primary school, for example, that's how to manage their emotions, healthy friendships, understanding that their body is private to

them, what to do if they feel uncomfortable around an adult and raise concerns. And right at the end of primary, learning in the science curriculum about reproduction as a general concept. And then in teenage years, as you can imagine, in secondary, there is a huge amount in there. How to understand contraception, the risk of pregnancy, the risk of coercive relationships, online harms, how people online may not be what they seem to be and how to keep themselves safe and a lot of the concern and some of the expanded sections in

this revised guidance for schools in England is around the concern around online influences, the kind of images and behaviors that they might then be influencing teenagers, particularly the more toxic masculinity and woman-hating content that is prevalent online. Yes, there was some figures. Recent research when asked just about the past week, over a third of pupils 11 to 19 had heard comments that made them worry about girls safety and more than half witness comments they would describe as misogynistic. One interesting part

of this is about age limits. In earlier draft guidance by the previous Conservative government, so that was published before last year's election, it had proposed setting age limits around sex education which ministers at the time said should not be taught before year five, so when children are nine or ten. There's no age limits to this information, why is that? So that's right, this final version of the guidance sticks with the current approach that is already being used in schools in England. And while it sets out expectations for what should be taught at which stage, the Education Secretary, Bridget Phillipson, has said that she recognizes,

having listened to the way that head teachers and teachers responded to the consultation about those age limits, that they want more flexibility. So for example if something comes up in school either through an individual child or through behaviours that are being seen, a school has a bit of discretion to tackle that in an age appropriate way. So the kind of thing we might be talking about is discovering, for example, that an inappropriate or sexually explicit image has been shared by a child in the last couple of years of primary school. How is a school meant to tackle that if they're not allowed to talk about some of the attached issues?

So it makes it clear that there's discretion, it has to be age appropriate and if something is going to be tackled which wouldn't normally be covered at that age, parents have to be informed and involved so they know exactly what's happening. When will the guidance be implemented from, are they updated as they say? Well although it's coming as teachers are staggering towards the last few days of term and will be going away on holiday, of course, schools do also do a lot of preparation for the new school year over the summer holiday. because it clearly sets out new parameters for some of the content and they will then be expected and bound by law to follow it from September 2026 in all of England's schools. All of England's, yes, to be specific. Just in our last couple of minutes, Bronwyn, you were in a school in Leeds speaking to young people

about this. I'd be really curious about what they've been telling you. What was really interesting was that it was a whole school attempt to change the culture which involved pupils and training all the staff but training some some pupil ambassadors and I spoke to some really impressive young women, year nine pupils, who said that it had helped them have the confidence when they heard something that was casually sexist or was borderline sexual harassment or a sexual put-down, that they had the confidence and felt empowered to speak up and to challenge it and to challenge those social norms that are filtering into schools, knowing that they would have the backup of the teachers and they were talking about things like pornography, in-cell culture, all the things that

children potentially now are encountering online through their smartphones and of course this feeds massively into that debate about what we are allowing children to access through smartphones from now quite an early age. Brownwyn Jeffreys at the BBC's Education Editor, thank you so much. She also has a piece on this guidance that has been updated on the BBC website. Thanks very much for joining us. Now I mentioned women and gaming.

Keep talking about it all this week. We just had a chat with Miranda Raisen. She's the voice of video games. That was new to me. Yesterday you will have met some of the women from the black girl gamers community and about the positive impact that gaming has on their lives. Today we're looking at the people who develop those games behind the scenes. The UK Games Industry Census, which was last published in 2022, said only 30% of games industry workers are women, despite women making 48% of gaming audiences. So why is that figure so different? I'm joined in the studio by Charu Desut, who is the first female engineer at Sony's London studio and is now studio director at Interior Night and Tarla Mustafa, a game designer and producer who founded Code Coven to open the door to other women wanting to get into the industry. Good morning to

both of you. Good morning. Good morning. So what about that, Cheryl, the first female engineer hired by Sony's London studio. That was in 1999 just out of university. How far have we come? We've come a long way in many ways actually. 1999 it was a different era. I was very new to technology in many ways. I actually only came across the internet myself when I was 18 years old and so learning to program you know felt like a very male dominated years old. And so learning to program, you know, felt like a very male dominated industry in general. And we're talking about IT as well as video games. Joining PlayStation was fabulous. It was a really great studio, very encouraging in many ways, but also being the only coder on the engineering team, which can be quite tough. And it was a very male-dominated time.

And you talk about it being tough, was it just not having other women around you or role models? What was it? I think we didn't have many women in games in general across the different disciplines. So it was a very biased atmosphere and culture within the games industry. And then also in terms of the representation within games at the time, there were very traditional genres and we didn't have the diversity of games being made. Now let me turn to you Tara, because I mentioned some of the figures there. 70% of people working in the industry are male, according to census, which is part of

the UK games industry. Why do you think that is? You're trying to also solve it. It's a never-ending challenge at this point. I think it's related to, there's sort of two problems and one is how are we getting young women and marginalized people into games and knowing that it's an accessible route within the games industry. But I find that the industry itself also has a problem with retaining that marginalized talent and showing pathways to leadership because there is that adage of if you see it you can be it. And we're really struggling to hit the mark in that regard.

And I think there's a statistic that says something like out of the top 15 game studios in the UK, only 16% of them identify as women. So what are we doing to be able to increase those numbers at that leadership level? And I think it greatly comes down to a lot of perhaps unconscious bias and systemic systems that we've inherited that we're trying to adapt. So you've code coven, I like the name as well. I usually think witches coven, of course. What are you doing with that? And how do you think it's going to help more women join the industry? We like to think that we see any problem, we're going to fix it. So we treat ourselves as a

launchpad for marginalized developers in games industry, and we do run globally. And the idea is whether you're coming into games as a new developer, or you are a studio that is seeking funding and you have marginalized leadership, or you're trying to just accelerate on your career ladder, we will provide education or access, mentorship, and funding to be able to keep those doors open for you. And how do people, Charu, get into the industry?

I think it's a lot easier to get into the industry or be informed about the industry today than it was during my time. And, you know, a large part of it is down to initiatives that Tara's just been talking about. I think it's very important to catch people when they're young and talk about it as a career path when they're students. So I've done a talk at my old school which is a girl's school for example but when I was at school there was no talk of jobs and technology in general so I think you know a lot has changed there. Your path was university into the industry. What about you, Tara?

Oh, I dropped out of university. It was great. And then what? And then what I ended up actually taking two vocational college degrees, diplomas in game design. But my passion came out of theatre studies and the idea of telling stories and making people feel things. And I can't code at all, but I knew how to play with rules and design these kind of stories. And it was through those vocational colleges that I was able to take that and develop it. And I think this is important to hear because that it's then not one potential

linear path as it can be with some other, I don't know, you want to be a lawyer or something, there's generally a well trodden path towards that. Do you feel there's been a change with people that you speak to, Tara, about coming into the industry? I think so. I think it's remarkable to see that there are actually several universities that do offer a traditional academic path into games. But equally with the accessibility of games engines and games communities, there are many

more homegrown ways to access jobs and to even create your own stories and enter the industry off of the caliber of what you create in your vision. I think what I've learned this week about that storytelling of games or the emotions that you can feel, the highs, the lows, is something that has really appealed to people who are either playing or in fact designing. If you were to give us your elevator pitch Charu for anyone listening who might like to work in the industry, why should they?

I wouldn't work in any other industry. I absolutely love working in games, even during its messy Wild West times of the early 2000s all the way to now. It's where creativity meets technology, meets innovation in a very, you know, very visceral way. It's all about teamwork, it's all about collaboration, making something that's bigger than yourself. And for me, I really want the diversity of the workforce to represent the diversity of the players, which should represent society as a whole. So we've got some way to go. There is, I mean, there's just this huge boom, right, during the pandemic, particularly probably people at home as streaming services also found that same boom, but there is some uncertainty in the gaming industry at the moment. Last year, Sony closed the London studio, for example, you started your career.

But do you feel that uncertainty across the industry, Tara? Definitely. Yeah. And it's a bit of an elephant in the room of how do we make homes, I guess, for all of the developers who've been affected and what does the future look like? I think it's very positive to see that in the UK, it feels like with the great work that the Trade Commission's doing, we're doubling down on creating those homes and those studios and potential for original IP and British storytelling and to support all of those people in new initiatives. So it's been a bit of a downhill, but I think there's going to be a bright horizon. You're optimistic, Charu.

I am optimistic. I think there's a lot of growth to still happen within the games industry. It's one of the fastest growing sectors. I was appointed to the Video Games Council last week and our aim... Congratulations. Thank you. Our aim really is to work with government to promote the creative industries and video games in particular. So you're game designers. Taru, you kind of alluded to

some of it of what do you love about it, particularly some of the emotional parts of it. Tara how would you describe your job? Oh I do a billion different things every day. I'm managing a studio and that means working out with the team how are we going to create a game that has never been made before, a player experience which is totally player centric, again creatively never been made before. And then also we really plug into different initiatives and culture around the UK. So we do a lot of work with BAFTA, we do a lot of work with, you know, it seemed to be the government

and also trying to encourage women to come into games. Yeah interesting and I found out this week with the last of us that which has been heavily promoted was a game to begin with which I hadn't realized I suppose everybody else probably had. But that is game designing. What other roles Tara should people be thinking of? You name it there is a role whether it's operations, engineering, music, composing. Music's really big isn't it that some of the songs are immediately identifiable? Exactly and it's magical because also we have the ability to change gameplay or change music based off of players gameplay. So the breadth of impact there and opportunity is large.

So, yeah, there's a lot of roles if you're not coding or designing, producing. But I think that's interesting as well that you don't have to be coding to be a games developer, for example, or designer. If someone's listening and their ears are tingling, they're saying, yes, maybe this is the path for me. What should they do? They should get involved in game jams, pick up some tools. They're all free. What's a game jam? It's a place where people come together and make a game in a very short period of time just for the fun and the experience of creating something based around a theme. And they'll find all that online, no doubt, for looking too hard.

Discord, I heard, is one of the places as well that a lot of them are hanging out. Lots of welcoming Discord communities and games communities out there. Thank you both for coming in and being part of our series. That's Charra Dussott, the first female engineer at Sony's London Studio, now studio director at Interior Night, and Moustafa, a game designer and producer who founded Code Coven to open the door to other women that are wanting to get into the industry. Maybe this has piqued your interest.

I do want to let you know that tomorrow, first of all, thank you very much for joining me today. Tomorrow Anita is with you. She's a number of guests. That includes the American Jazz Vocal Powerhouse, Samara Joy. That is going to be amazing. Who has a stellar five Grammy Awards to her name. She is going to be performing at the BBC Proms this Saturday and it's a special tribute to the great American songbook. So you can imagine that is something that is one to listen to. Also we have the author Louise Candlish who you might be very familiar with. She's here to tell us

about the latest psychological thriller that is called A Neighbour's Guide to Murder so that is also something you'll want to tune into. Thanks very much for joining us today. Do get your ideas in for Listeners Week. We want to know all about them. We'll be back with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. We pulled into what felt like an old compound.

You think, wow, this is a very old property. I'm Danny Robbins and Uncanny is back. We have three brand new summer special episodes, and things are about to get scary. I could feel something moving up the side of the bed, and I can't quite believe what I'm seeing. A trip to a tiny medieval town in central Spain turns into a holiday from hell.

I could make out its long matted fur and I am absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified. This was just pure terror. And we'll investigate more spine chilling cases in an episode recorded live at the Hay Festival. Uncanny Hay audience, who is feeling? Team Believer and who is team skeptic?

Listen now on BBC Sounds. Cuba's Minister of Labour has resigned after claiming that there are no beggars on the Caribbean island. That's just one of the myths surrounding the communist-led country. So what's life really like there? I'm William Lee Adams. On What in the World, we're lifting the veil on a frequently misunderstood country. So what's life really like there? I'm William Lee Adams. On What in the World, we're lifting the veil on a frequently misunderstood country. What in the World is an award-winning podcast from the BBC World Service. We go in-depth on a different topic every weekday in under 15 minutes.

Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.