Woman's Hour - Claire Waxman, Victims' Bill, China birth rate, D-Mer Study, Academy Award nominations

Episode Date: January 24, 2024

The Victim’s and Prisoner’s Bill heads to the House of Lords today for the Committee Stage. What is it trying to achieve, and what difference will it make to women? Emma is joined by the Independent London Victim’s Commissioner, Claire Waxman OBE, and a woman who will share her personal experience of a partner convicted of child sexual abuse who, under the current law, still had access to his daughter. China is experiencing its biggest population drop in six decades. In an attempt to recover from the ‘one-child policy’ introduced in 1980, the government are now urging women to have more children. But a large amount of women in China are saying no – they don’t want children, or to get married. To discuss this further, Emma is joined by Dr Ye Liu from King’s College London and Cindy Yu, host of the Spectator’s Chinese Whispers podcast. D-MER is a relatively unknown condition that could affect around nine percent of mothers who breastfeed. Emma speaks to Charlie Middleton from the University of Dundee, who is leading a study into the condition to find out more about it, and Beth Strachan, who has D-MER and is currently breastfeeding. The Oscar nominations are out, and many feel that there are some key women who haven’t made the list, but should have. Among these are Barbie director Greta Gerwig and actor Margot Robbie – although Ryan Gosling has been nominated for his role in the movie. There’s only one woman director nominated – Justine Triet. Are women being snubbed? Film journalist Karen Krizanovich joins Emma to discuss.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Donald MacDonald

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. With one former Conservative cabinet minister calling for Rishi Sunak to step down in order for the Conservatives to avoid being destroyed at the next election. And we read of the King's brother, Prince Edward, saying in a speech abroad that men aren't doing a very good job at the moment, apparently in the context of the number of international conflicts. And he also said that the world is not in a happy place. It's quite a time for, it seems, many world leaders to be trying to convince women

to have more children or any children at all. Today, we're going to look at the state of play in China where text messages are being sent to women by government units in a bid to encourage women to have more children. Yes, that same country which not so long ago banned families from having more than one child with very painful consequences for many. We've also heard this week about President Macron and France's plan to offer all French 25-year-olds a fertility check under a plan to reverse a decline in the birth rate that he views as a national threat. Just 678,000 babies were born in France last year. That's the smallest number since 1945. President Macron, I'll just point out, doesn't have children himself. I don't know the circumstances

of that, but is now trying to engage in a process beautifully termed demographic rearmament. Well, the chairwoman of the country's Feminist Foundation replied with a curt, leave our uteruses alone. And there has been resistance to the idea that it is a national duty for women to have children. But there are similar concerns by certain politicians in this country, as the birth rate in England and Wales, just to use that latest data, drops to the lowest level in two decades. So it got me thinking this morning, with various ideas happening, lots of them will definitely be able to say in China, driven by men, including a text message saying, have more babies. I'm sure

it's worded slightly differently, but maybe we'll find out. What, if anything, could lawmakers, those who shape policy, say to you or do to make you consider having a child or having another? Is there anything that could be done? If a text message wouldn't cut it, what would? Text me on 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate. I'm going to also be very mindful and say this very clearly. Some of the issue that President Macron was talking about was people not knowing their fertility and issues around infertility, something I'm personally very painfully aware there will be those who desperately want to have children and cannot. But broadly, there isn't just that issue. There is an issue of women, especially we're here in China, turning away from the idea of having children, wanting to carry on with their careers, not being able to cope with caring for parents and the cost of living and how it costs to have a home now.

So if we take that into account, is there anything you could see from a government point of view, from those who are trying to use our money to help us live, that they could do, those lawmakers and policymakers, to make you think differently about having a child in the first place or even having another? Or is it so intensely personal that they are on a hiding to nothing? 03700 is the number you need to WhatsApp me here. You can also send a voice note. Do check out for those data charges. Or if you wish to email me, go through the Woman's Hour website. Please do get in touch. Look forward to hearing what, if anything, could make you think about this differently or even change your mind. I'm always fascinated what works with changing people's minds. Let's talk to one woman now who would like to change something. She's always, I think, on a mission to change something because today the Victims and Prisoners Bill progresses to the next stage in its journey to becoming law, going to the House of Lords for Committee stage.

The bill, which was first read in Parliament in March last year, is aiming to provide better justice for victims of crime and major incidents, as well as create a framework through which we can hold criminal justice services more strongly to account. There are those who think the bill needs further amendments to properly achieve this, especially for women. Among those, Claire Waxman, London's Independent Victims Commissioner, and she joins me now alongside a woman who we're going to call Mary, not her real name, who I'll talk to very shortly about her story. She agreed to talk to us today in a bid to help with these calls for changing the way that our justice system works around us. Mary, I'll come to you in just a moment. But Claire, do tell us, what are you hoping this bill will do, first of all, and then let's get to what you think needs to change. Okay. So I first started the campaign for this bill over 10 years ago. And the ambition of this

bill was to give victims of crime in this country legally enforceable rights to justice and support. So when they become a victim, come into the system, they have rights, they have status, they're treated with dignity, they're part of the process, not a bystander. And unfortunately, the bill in its current form, what government put forward after all these years, really lacks any ambition and drive to achieve that. What's written on paper won't make any meaningful change

to those coming into the criminal justice system. So we want to see it really strengthened in relation to the point that you just made earlier around the Victims Code of Practice holding those justice agencies to account when they fail to deliver basic rights and entitlements to victims in this country. That Victims Code provides a minimum level of service. And at the moment, compliance with that code is woefully inadequate from all justice agencies. So we wanted this piece of legislation to drive better practice, better compliance, so that victims get what they need to help them through the criminal justice system. And Jade's Law, how does this work in

relation and what is it? Yeah, so Jade's Law, actually, I started campaigning for something similar before I was in this role. It was called the Abuse of Process Campaign. We were very aware that perpetrators were using family courts and civil courts to continue unwanted contact with their victims. And at the time, I met and worked alongside Penny and John Clough, whose daughter Jane was tragically murdered. After she was murdered, her murderer was sentenced to 30 years. But he was able to contest the adoption of their grandchild, which was Jane's daughter and the murderer's daughter,

because he still had parental responsibility. He was able to cross examine these poor bereaved parents from prison via video link. And that case always stayed with me. And I wanted to see better protection for families in that situation. And then we had Jade Ward's case and Jade's family did a fantastic campaign calling for exactly that to ask for parental responsibility of those who murder a partner or ex-partner where they share children, to suspend that parental responsibility, to protect them from going through long financial, emotional family court processes to curtail their parental responsibility. So the government have listened. They have brought something into the bill to try. I mean, the intention is to curtail that parental responsibility, but what they've brought in is far too weak. The government know full well that abusers will use family courts to continue that unwanted contact. They did a harm panel report in 2020, which highlighted exactly how abusers use the family courts. But what's in the bill hasn't taken that into account.

So what would the amendment do? So the amendment at the moment, what the government have in is something called a prohibited steps order. So they'll curtail and suspend that parental responsibility upon sentencing. But what we know is you haven't actually taken the parental responsibility away. So that offender, that murderer still has the right to ask to vary orders and to come back into the family court. We haven't stopped them actually accessing family court if they want to. So we've put forward a barring order, which would actually strengthen that and prevent those perpetrators from causing emotional distress and financial distress to these families.

And is that enough, do you think, if you manage to get that through? With the barring order, I think it will certainly strengthen it. I still have some concerns because the Lord Chancellor said we will be automatically suspending parental responsibility. I mean, in reality, that's not actually what happens. The criminal court judge can put a prohibited steps order in, but it will still go back to the family courts. And I have a lot of issues with the family courts. As do many and those who then have the experience of going through them. Let's bring in Mary at this point. Good morning.

Good morning. Not your real name. We wish bring in Mary at this point. Good morning. Good morning. I'd say not your real name. We wish to protect your identity as much as we can. And I should say, before you take the step, and thank you for doing so, sharing your story, some of our listeners may find it very distressing, but I know you want to share it today

in a bid to highlight what you feel also needs to change. So you'd broken up with your partner, the father of your children, and he was having time with them when your daughter started acting strangely. Is that right? Yes. So there'd been sort of six years of pretty much uninterrupted contact. But the last few years were strange. They were odd. They would come back from holidays. They would come back from weekends. And there was a strain between the two of them, but also sort of between them and I. And when I would ask them what was wrong, they didn't feel able to tell me.

He had been a drinker and that had been the cause of our breakdown of our relationship. So I assumed that maybe he'd started drinking again and that maybe there was a problem there. So I turned up early one day to collect them from a contact session and he was blind drunk. And so I began proceedings at family court for supervised contact. Because at that point you were having unsupervised, he was having some... Yes, he was having full stay in contact and holidays. And so I kind of felt that we needed supervised contact to be put into place. And then what happened next was beyond my wildest nightmares, I think. He accused me of parental alienation in family court, said that I had a new partner, which I didn't have, and that I was trying to exclude the children from his life

and that I was being emotionally abusive to the children because I was trying to stop them from seeing him. He even told a court social worker that an allegation of child sexual abuse was about to happen. I mean, the thought that he had been sexually abusing my daughters was the last thing on my mind when I went to court. I was actually more concerned about his ability to care for them because I was drinking. Yes.

And I was absolutely horrified. During this process, my oldest daughter in particular became almost hysterically distressed, but couldn't tell me what was wrong. As a consequence, I was becoming hysterically distressed, but couldn't tell me what was wrong. As a consequence, I was becoming hysterically distressed. And what sort of age was she at this point? She would have been a sort of early teenager at this stage. Just to get an idea in her mind. Yes. So I basically said to her,

why don't you go and speak to one of our close friends? If you can't tell me what's bothering you, why don't you tell a close friend? She ended up making a full report to police that he had been sexually abusing her. And our youngest daughter corroborated her evidence to the police as well. However, because of this allegation of parental alienation, the police didn't want to proceed with any charges.

And the social services decided that they felt that my children should be removed from my care because they felt I was emotionally abusing the children by forcing them to make allegations of child sex abuse, which was a complete fabrication from the offender. Regrettably, they put that forward and I had to face having my children removed. And I had to face trying to tell my children that they were going to go and live with him. Do you want to take a moment? And there was nothing I could do. I feel like this is... Forgive me.

No, no, please. You do not need to say that. I don't know if you could imagine, knowing that your children have reported to the police that they've been sexually abused and then have a family court say that they should go and live with him. My children became suicidal and obviously I wasn't in a great place.

It was only for the sake that another child came forward to the police that the whole situation changed around. So it didn't end up resulting... No, thank God. I mean, there but for the grace of God go I and my children. Another child came forward, gave a report to the police about the father as well. Independent, corroborating your daughter's story? No, corroborating their own as well, his own approaches to them. Okay.

So he was then charged and was convicted in criminal court. I was told by a police officer, I remember getting the verdict through and just sobbing in the waiting area. And then the officer came to me and said, you've got to go to family court now. I know men like this and you've got to go to family court. I've got to get some protective orders. He said he's still got all his parental rights. I was flabbergasted. I had no idea that that would be the case, that he could rape his own child and then end up still having all his rights and exercising those rights from prison. So I went to family court. And first problem I had was knowing where to serve the

papers because he'd been taken to prison. I had no right to know where he was. So there were three hearings just to establish his location to serve papers. Then I had a problem getting his risk assessments from probation because the onus was on me to prove that he posed a risk to my children. Unbelievably, the onus is on me. I have no access to his data. I have no access. I don't even have access to my daughter's statements. I had to then request those from the police.

They had to be transcribed at huge cost, etc. It just goes on and on. And I know you couldn't keep working at this point. No. And you had to remortgage your home. I did. I had to stop work. Looking after my children,

looking after myself and trying to go through these cases was, I couldn't then keep quite a heavy responsible job going at the same time. I had to remortgage my home. The first lot of orders cost me about £30,000. He repeatedly went to court fighting the cases and requesting a variation of orders. I did manage to get protective orders in the end. But it was a huge cost and expense to me emotionally, financially, and an expense to my children who I should have been spending time with helping them heal. And instead, I'm sitting up late at night typing statements and trying to put evidence together and transcribing things. It was a travesty of justice, an absolute travesty of justice that I had to go through that. And when he came out of prison, I discovered he immediately made contact with our youngest daughter, who was the more vulnerable of the two children.

And I discovered at that point, I phoned the police, and the police, she had gone missing, basically. And the police phoned me and said they'd found her with him. And could I please send them the orders? So I sent them the orders, and they said, there's no power of arrest. And I was informed later that that's normal for family court that they don't normally give you a power of arrest on to enforce the order to enforce the orders yeah there's no power of arrest you then have to go for a contempt of court application which again costs time and

money and during that time the children are still not protected the police did remove her under their their protective powers but he was, he kept telling the police he's exercising his parental responsibility that he's her father and that there's no power of arrest on these orders and that they have no right to remove her from his care because he has parental responsibility. So I had to go to court again. And this time I had to go for prohibitive steps orders which do have powers of arrest. But instead of the court understanding that what we'd been through was enough,

enough is enough, they only gave me a protective order for one year which again is standard practice to only give a non-monestation order for one year. As soon as that expired, he made contact again. Another non-monestation order in family court. As soon as that expired, he made contact again another non-molestation order in family court as soon as that expired he made contact again and it was only at that point that I got a long-term non-molestation order finally I might I should add my youngest daughter when she met him again became suicidal after that and I had to monitor her very, very closely.

She was self-harming. My eldest daughter began to have panic attacks. Our family went through the most unbearable re-traumatisation as a result of him coming back and being able to walk around quite freely and do what he wanted without any real consequences and the fact that I had in the end spent about £50,000 trying to get our family protected from legislation that the government has increasingly added to and added to to increase the rights of parents without protecting children. And at the end of the day, it's the children that are suffering. My children suffered enormously from this man.

Then they weren't protected. I'll come back to the legislation side of it. But firstly, thank you for finding a way through to talk about that. There's a lot in there. But I'm very struck by the part if I if I can just say on this which is that your reaction to when you found out what he had done uh to to your daughter I mean you talked about that in terms of of how it then went through the process and and the collaboration with with another child but that that must have just been quite the moment um i don't think i could put

any words to express how i feel i think my voice is the only thing i can use to express what happened to us and the fact that you could just get away with saying parental alienation and of course if i'm trying to protect my children it looks saying parental alienation. And of course, if I'm trying to protect my children, it looks like parental alienation, doesn't it? And how are your daughters and how are you now because of what you've been through, but where you are now, right now? Because you have come here today wanting to try to use this in some way. Absolutely. I really feel that the amendments to the Victims and Prisoners Bill is really, really important. It really should be extended to protect child sex abuse victims as well

and their families. I don't think Jade's law in its proposed state is strong enough. I have experience of the offender just going back and back and back to family court and abusing his rights as a parent to keep traumatising us. So I don't think it's strong enough in its current form. And I think we need to get tough now. Enough is enough. It really is enough.

I went to We Stand, a charity supporting victims. You may think that this doesn't happen very often. I was shocked when I went there, how many women are going through exactly the same thing and how many parents are committing abuse against their own children. I am shocked, honestly, that you may think this might not be able to happen to you. I thought that about myself. You know, the offender in this case, he was highly educated from a good family, there was no indication that he might be a child sex offender. And this happened to our family. You know, I'm not daft lady. I am a strong lady. I'm an independent lady. And this happened to us.

It could happen to anyone. And in terms of your question about how we are now, my youngest daughter is still not as well as she could be my eldest is doing really really well and I am doing really really well so just to give some other mums some hope out there that you can get through this you can survive and you can thrive afterwards life is not over

please keep going thank you for talking to us. I'm going to give you a moment and come back to Claire. Just to say we did receive a message saying I've never texted the BBC before and I wanted to send so much thanks, respect and love to the woman describing her experiences with the family court. I'm so very sorry and so very angry and a kiss at the end of that message, if I can include that. Claire to you then that is a first-hand experience of why you're making the case for these changes. Yeah I mean at the moment the government had made Jade's Law only around those who murder and it absolutely without a

doubt the government must extend it to children who've been raped and sexually abused by their own parent. Otherwise, we have a situation that when that rapist abuser is actually convicted, they can still access their own children. And we can't allow that to happen. Look what happened in Mary's case. And I know that that's happened in other cases too. So the government must extend it and agree to the amendment that we've put in to include child sex abuse victims who've been sexually abused by their own parent. Absolutely critical. And then again, the point around that I said around barring orders, because we know, we know what's going on in the family courts. We actually know sadly, that when a child discloses sexual abuse often it's

to the protective parent the mother and if that mother discloses that child sex abuse we are seeing in a hundred percent of cases that we stand support there is a counter allegation of parental alienation. So this parental alienation. So it's a disputed phrase for some as well isn't it? Yes but it's being used what we're seeing is when serious sexual abuse or domestic abuse is disclosed, we are seeing a counter-allegation of parental alienation. So I also put an amendment in the bill because I want to stop that. You know, there's an allegation of CSA or domestic abuse. You can't make a child sex abuse.

You cannot make a counter-allegation of parental alienation because what we're seeing is that we're we are seeing these cases not being taken forward in fact there's a report coming out from university of manchester in the next few days they've only looked at a small sample 45 cases of domestic abuse there's a number of cases in there where the mother or the child have actually disclosed sexual abuse against the child from their own father. And yet we've only seen two convictions from those cases. And all of those cases have resulted in contact with a father. Four of those cases, the children have been removed from the protective mother and placed with a father accused of sexual abuse.

Now, that would have happened in Mary's case had it not been for another child coming forward, not within the family, bravely reporting to the police. But we don't always have another child coming forward. Very difficult for child victims to come forward and disclose. So what your listeners need to understand, what is going on in the family court is a national scandal. And I've said this for years. And we've seen this rise in parental alienation which is actually silencing women and children in the family courts and placing them at risk. Claire Waxman we will keep across this thank you for coming in Independent Victims Commissioner Mary not your real name but many messaging in to to say for instance another one here total respect for you what you've endured is unimaginable and i hope that you and your girls

will heal you're amazing thank you for coming on woman's hour thank you for having me on the show i should say if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this interview there are links to support and resources on our website and a statement from the ministry of justice a spokesperson says this was an awful case that you've just heard about our sympathies although we are with those affected judges already have the powers to effectively remove parental responsibility in practice if it is considered in the best interests of the child. I think it's only fair to say because radio is an exercise in description both for my guests shaking their heads in response to that statement but it is my situation here to read you the statement from the Ministry of Justice. So thank you to both of my guests there. Returning to one of the conversations I started at the beginning of this programme, I was asking if there is anything at all that might make you think about having a child or having another child because of the situation in China.

I'll tell you about that in just a moment before I introduce my guests. But let me give you a flavour of the messages coming in. There are far too many humans on the planet destroying habitat for thousands of species and contributing to climate change. No nation should be encouraging more. Well, I remember we had this conversation once with a population with an expert and also around the climate change issue, and there is a whole other response to that, but that is definitely going to be the response of some. Make all fertility treatment free on the NHS. That would make the biggest difference, reads this message.

Although again, there are different figures on that and not necessarily enough figures to show if that would solve the issue. Although that is something that's being done in Hungary, as all IVF clinics have been nationalised and there are financial incentives in that country under Auburn. The leader there, to encourage me to have children, target men, reads this message, to become decent, kind, reliable and committed partners. Why are governments targeting women?

It takes two to make a baby and men are wanted and needed to make a home. Hello. I used to live in France in the 90s. They encourage families with the Famille non-Brusse policy, I hope I've said that right, which provides subsidies for families with three children for things like public transport. We could do a similar thing by adjusting child allowance to help families with their costs. We need to reproduce to sustain our population, says Jonathan, who is a father, one of four and a father of three. The only reason we're not having another child, reads this message, is the lack of proper parental leave for both parents.

As the main wage earner and mother, it feels as if we're taking on massive financial precariousness by having a child. What would convince me to have a child is if the government offers either free childcare or paid stay-at-home mum duties. Either or, we can't do both. Also, discounted rent would really help considering you need more space, which comes at larger costs. Free childcare to help young families reads another. High cost

of childcare is restrictive. If I was of childbearing age today reads this one, I would not be bringing a child into the world. Headlines of UK conscription, yes there has been today, that our army reserves are at low levels so if we did need more we would have to conscript. Climate change and worldwide unrest, why inflict that on anyone? Perhaps if the first world has fewer children there will be resources enough for all. And another, absolutely nothing would ever have convinced me to have a child in capital letters. Let's talk about China there. Until 2016, there was a one-child policy which began in 1980.

Fast forward to today, China has experienced a population drop for the second year, running with a record low birth rate. And it is something, as I've painted a picture of, facing many countries, particularly in the West. There's text messages in China, there's public messaging urging women to reproduce, but many, many women are saying no. Dr. Ye Liu from the Department of International Development at King's College London is on the line, but I'll just go first to get an overview of the general picture for women in China. Cindy Yu, who we've spoken to before and hosts the Spectator's Chinese Whispers podcast.

Good morning. Morning. What is going on with women in China in terms of what you can hear about their lives and when they come to having children? I think there are a myriad of factors why women are not really having children in China anymore. One, I think it can't be underestimated, is just how educated women are in China today. You know, this is going to be some of the most educated generations of Chinese women in probably Chinese history, in terms of women in high education, in terms of women in the workplace. And so people are starting to have kind of different ideas of what might make a good life rather than just getting married and having kids by the time you're 25. 10 years ago, the phenomenon of the leftover woman, who was basically someone who

was 28 and not married and had kids is now no longer that remarkable, because the marriage rate is just getting later and later. The one child policy, of course, has its impact. As you say, Emma, between the period of 1980 and 2016, the government didn't allow a large section of the population to have one child. There were exemptions for very many different people, but that definitely depressed the birth rate and sped up what we're seeing in a lot of developed countries or rich developing countries where people are just having fewer babies. But in China, because of its size, because of the one-child policy, this problem is now faster. And then the final thing I'll say is just the cost of living as well.

In the last 20 years, Chinese housing has become four times more unaffordable. And in the Chinese marriage culture, you know, if a man doesn't have a house, he's going to find it very difficult to find a wife as well. And it's still a very kind of structured society where you only really have children within wedlock, as it were. And so all of these things... So single women, if I may,

single women trying to have fertility treatment or do any of that in China is not the same. Very difficult. As with the UK, there's a postcode lottery. In some provinces, in a few provinces, you could have access to IVF, but in most you cannot because they do not want to be that liberal with their marriage values and that's a problem. Dr Ye Liu welcome to the

programme uh you're you've been doing research on this and you you've also spoken to women who were born during the first few years of the one child policy what are you hearing? Um China um you know in a broader context it's similar cindy said china is not exactly a women friendly and a child friendly place to be uh like similar to other east asian countries grabbing with low fertility rates uh china had you know there was entrenched gender discriminations in the workplace so my respondents told me they were discriminated against when they were pregnant and they were even put on a pregnancy queue. They were labelled at diminished capabilities

when they were pregnant or with young children. There are also persistent patriarchal culture, gender norms. Women are still expected to, you know, look after children to cover most of the childcare responsibility. Also, lack of adequate subsidised childcare. But China also has some kind of unique kind of factors. One is about general low trust in the government and in the market in safeguarding children's welfare and

well-being. So there have been ongoing scandals about, you know, unsafe formula, unsafe nappies, faulty vaccines, sexual abuse in kindergartens, in nurseries. So my respondents ask themselves, why do I want to bring more children in a society where I cannot trust the government, I cannot trust the institution, I cannot trust the very basic, this kind of safety net for our children. the particular uh we need to ask you know who are these women the women they are actually they're the children who don't want our policy so had more education than before and they had a slow investment in their particular urban women from their families and they want to have it all they want to have career and family but uh being a mother in urban China is not easy. So this phenomenon we call Jiwa mothering. So it's quite similar to Western country,

this kind of helicopter parenting, intensive parenting. But in China, Jiwa mothering is all about competition. It's a race of competitive motherhood, about performing duties, performing motherly practices. Just give you an example. So when I have my toddler, I went to Oxfordshire baby groups for support, for moral support. But in China, my respondents went to baby groups for competition, to compete, you know, the baby weight, the baby height. So one respond one respondent two-year-old uh a girl her height was below 50 percentile and her mother went through special consultants to design special

diet she even hired private basketball basketball coach to design exercise to improve the height so everything about competition. And just the idea, if I can here, I mean, you've painted a very vivid picture as to why you might not want to do it in the first place from a range of the societal issues around you, the way you feel about your government, and then through to how hard it will be if you're going to do it

because of the culture surrounding some of the parenting that you'll see and the competitive side of it and then wanting to still have a career. Some of that we can relate to, you know, in this country and some perhaps less so. But the idea of receiving text messages

from state officials, from those getting in touch, tell us about that. And are there any signs of any state encouragement that's working? Not really. So in China, it's men making policies for women. So it's really top down baby demand. And for women's response, a kind of collective resistance to having more babies. So for women, it's easy to put a price tag on child cost. And we're talking

about living costs, mortgage and the cost for raising a child, but it's impossible to put a price on the cost of women's career, opportunity costs and mental well-being. So for the women I interviewed, I got in touch with them again about the new policies such as cash rewards. And also all this kind of reward system is very ageist and sexist in a way. So they reward younger women with more money in some provinces to have children earlier.

So it's kind of this reward and punishment kind of policymaking inherited from the one child policy. It won't work. And for women, it will be kind of collective and shrug to the garment baby demand. And Cindy, just to bring you back in briefly, if I can, but what's interesting here, and we've talked on the programme before about in China, the complete suspicion of feminism as a foreign force, but it's feminism on a very personal level for these women, which is hard for the state to intervene in. Yeah, it's the most personal decision you could probably make as a woman with the most long-term repercussions. And while the state can turn off the fertility tap by banning more than one child as it did in the 1980s, what they're finding is that turning on

that tap, actually asking women to do something like having more babies when they're not providing the environment to do so is much, much harder and and i think i think what year was saying about this government of men for women is very good because um you know for the first women have always been a minority in tai china's top leadership but right now on the politburo there was not a single woman at all and let alone the standing committee so none of these are people who have personal experience of what women's struggles are. And, you know, I think it's very difficult for them to understand what can change the tide here because they can't see it from that perspective.

I wrote a message here, receiving a text from the government telling me to have a child would put me off the idea completely. I'm trying to think of how Rishi Sunak and his advisors would even word that text. You know, you get a reminder from HMRC to pay your tax. But can you imagine quite what that would say? But of course, we're such a different society to China.

I'm not wishing to make light of state intervention in people's lives. And that being far, far more the norm for people around the world than it is in the UK in some ways. Karen in Glasgow says, I can't afford to heat my home adequately. Never mind thinking of the costs of children. the UK in some ways. Karen in Glasgow says, I can't afford to heat my home adequately, never mind thinking of the costs of children. It's very interesting to get this perspective and think about it from China, but we're also hearing what's going on in France as well and in other Western economies. Dr. Ye Liu, thank you to you. And Cindy Yu, thank you very much indeed. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories Thank you very much indeed. questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Well, what I always enjoy about this programme is the twists and turns of what comes next. And having just talked about what might convince you to have a child let me ask you if you've ever heard of something called DEMA. The chances are you haven't but research suggests it's a condition that affects around nine percent of mothers who breastfeed. DEMA stands for dysphoric milk ejection reflex. It's a condition that means when a woman is breastfeeding she feels sudden emerges rather of emotion that can have nothing to do with her situational surroundings. And it can be very frightening. So after talking about what might convince you, this may not. But it is rare, but it's not rare enough that we shouldn't be doing anything about it, if that makes sense.

There isn't much research or knowledge about it. And Charlie Middleton is a lecturer in nursing at the University of Dundee. He's on the line. And Beth Strachan, a mother of two who has DEMA and both involved in a study to try and find out more. Charlie, just tell us a bit about what we do know, what the impact is. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for inviting me on the show. This is this is a real treat. I'm a huge fan of the programme. So, yeah, I first got interested in DEMA back in 2018 and Beth and I are old school friends and when she had her first child she started reporting these feelings of sadness homesickness like feelings specifically in relation to when her milk let down. At this point I've been a health visitor

for about six years and she's telling me this and I'm thinking oh sounds maybe a little bit like post-natal depression and I started trying to sort of gently explore this with Beth and she said oh no it's not that it's this thing it's called DEMA and I said I've never heard of this and that was a real surprise to me that as a health visitor I'd never heard of this phenomenon. So I went and did a bit of research on Google and there it was. Lots and lots of grey literature, social media posts, blog posts by women describing these specific experiences. The key thing about DEMA is it presents just before and during the milk ejection reflex.

It's really sudden and at short end duration. And it typically presents as like some kind of despondence or sadness, anxiety maybe, or even in some women, suicidal ideation. So it can be really really profound and but the important thing to recognize is this is not the same as postnatal depression or any kind of perinatal mood disorder and and what you know the key features of edema that characterize it and how in fact women are able to pick up on this being different different is that it happens just for this really short duration before or during milk ejection. We think about it most commonly in the context of breastfeeding.

But actually, if women are expressing milk, you know, it can occur to with spontaneous milk letdown. So it doesn't just impact breastfeeding women. I think it's thank you for those parameters. And I think it's extraordinary, you know, how many hormones are involved when you are breastfeeding and what those hormones can do. And, you know, even down to my eyesight changed for the time I was breastfeeding. And I've got a very strong prescription that's never changed in years. Beth, what was it like? Good morning to you. What was it like the first time you had it? Can you describe it?

Yeah. So for me, as you say, I have two children. I have a five year old and it's my oldest child. And it first happened with her. So it was when I first started breastfeeding her, just straight after she was born. And I was expecting this wonderful, warm, fuzzy experience and straightaway the tingling physical sensation of milk let down. But then this really sort of sudden um abrupt sinking feeling into

to me it's kind of like I can only describe it as sort of homesickness like a hollowness like a sort of a yucky feeling um that was in a complete contrast with how I was feeling right before and right after so normally I'm quite a happy-go-lucky positive optimistic person and I was absolutely delighted to have been able to have a baby you know so it was it really knocked me for six it was as if someone had just turned off a tap of positivity in me and I was just left sort of free-falling and it just lasted for for me personally about a minute or two. And then I just sort of spring back into feeling my normal self again for the rest of the breastfeed. But as Charlie mentioned, you could be in a supermarket and just experience a sudden letdown. And so it could be in that moment for me that the feeling would happen.

It's important to be able to describe it I think when there isn't much known and it could be a huge comfort to people either retrospectively this morning who didn't know or might be going through it or it might be ahead of them I think what's fascinating is it didn't stop you when you had your second child breastfeeding again Yeah, so I very much wanted to breastfeed

and I'm very fortunate in that I'm able to deal with it. I have a very supportive husband and a great group of friends around me. I've got Charlie and a mum that I can tell everything to. So I do have that support network, and I've got the means and the opportunity to research and look into and reassure myself about this so I know what it is and what it's not and I feel like I can deal with it. But what worries me is that if you were someone who didn't have those things that I have

or maybe you had it in a more severe way, it could be the last straw. It could be something that would really affect things. Have you got a strategy that you deploy when it's about to happen? Do you try and breathe differently, fixate on something else or what's your thing? Because it's for you and how it's been described is it's a short, sharp experience. Yeah. Yeah. So I've got a few things that I do that help.

So one of them is trying to reduce any kind of background stress. So things like, I don't't know maybe perhaps you're meant to reply to a friend's message or you're meant to pay a bill or book something don't have those little jobs hanging over you if possible put aside some time so those those things that life admin is done so there's nothing that can kind of bring you down with the deemer and also just um you know not be watching things on on television that are gritty and sad. Just trying to have a pleasant enough environment around you. It's not always possible if you've got a couple of kids and a couple of dogs and a busy life to have a lovely setting to sit in to breastfeed.

But it does help me if I can have a nice environment and not have underlying sort of stress and even a bit of visualization just why I'm doing this you know and what how great it it makes it is you know and how much my baby loves it I've said it before I say again women are nails you went back in again to do this and I know you know it's you know you say you're lucky to be able to do it but to have to contend with that is difficult and then you've come up with these coping strategies to do that and there's a message here from someone who also has had this experience, but said no one recognised it. And it was only after they saw a post on Instagram, after feeding my first baby, I realised what I had.

It was a relief to know and it did help me prepare. Charlie, there's now a study, there's more research being done because part of the issue when you are a woman is fighting to actually be believed that not something is just in your head and also delineating between postnatal depression and this particular situation do you have any hope that's going to change i would really hope so i mean one of the main things that i really want to get out of this research is well first and foremost to understand the experiences of dema a little better but also to raise awareness because as i I say, I've been a health

visitor now for more than a decade. I work with some fantastic colleagues in the Mother and Infant Research Unit at the University of Dundee, really eminent researchers, midwives, health visitors, who had never heard of this. People have been working in midwifery around maternal health for 30 years, let's say, but but very very few people have ever heard of it and as Beth says what what the research seems to suggest is if you simply know what it is that you're experiencing and and you know you're not confused you don't for example think that you're becoming depressed then then you can find strategies to deal with it, as Beth explained. So that's really, really important. What I really want to do is ensure that health professionals

who work with women in the postpartum period understand that DEMA is a thing and maybe have that thought at the back of their mind when they're assessing a woman's mental health. Is it on any guidance, training? Is it written down anywhere? So some limited lactation consultants, midwives, might know about it. It's not currently included in any kind of guidance around assessment of perinatal mental health disorders.

It's nowhere. It is that niche, if you like, and that under-researched. Thank you very much, Charlie Middleton, Beth Strachan, for coming on. You can find more information on that study on our website. Many messages coming in, which is always the power of live radio, I find. I had that 30 years ago. Makes sense now. Hated breastfeeding. I mean, can you imagine listening this morning and just that penny dropping for you, which has just happened to one of our listeners. Hi, Women's Hour team. I had Dima for the first time with my second baby in 2021. I felt an absolute feeling of desolation when I was feeding and started to dread feed. Hot drinks and chocolate when feeding helped,

and having my partner sit with me for company. Fortunately, it got better as my baby got older. Wouldn't have known about it unless a friend had mentioned it. I've had Dima read this message with all three of my babies, had no idea it had a name, mentioned it. I've had Dima read this message with all three of my babies, had no idea it had a name and that it was something others experienced. I really struggled with this with my first, but now I instantly recognise it as false feelings related to breastfeeding. And someone else says, pints of water used to work for me with sudden quick breastfeeding depression, as they term it, and butterflies. Water helped every time. I'm very sorry if you're going through that or if you've just had a wake-up call that it wasn't just you

and it was something. Just to something else then, shall we? The Oscar nominations are out. There's been a lot of reaction about who's been nominated and who hasn't. The Barbie movie. You may have loved it, you may have loathed it, you may have absolutely walked through life not caring at all.

But it is a cultural phenomenon. It did gross more than $1 billion, which, you know, money talks. Its director, Greta Gerwig, has missed out on a nomination for Best Director. We should say she was nominated alongside her husband for Best Adapted Screenplay, but not for Director. And Barbie herself, played by Margot Robbie, nominated as a producer, but not as best actor in the best actress category. Ken did better.

I think best supporting did get an arm there. British actresses and actors, however they wish to be called at the moment, I always seem it's different with whoever you're talking to, fared a little better. Karen Krusanovich, the film journalist, is here. Karen, no nods on those categories for Margot Robbie and Greta Gerwig. Is this a problem? Well, it was certainly a surprise with Greta Gerwig because we thought for sure she was going to get in there. Is it a problem?

Well, the fact that people are noticing it, I think, is a good thing. But we have to remember that there is only, I mean, statistically, men still run the industry. And that includes voting. So the fact that we're noticing it is great, and the fact that Greta had been nominated previously is also great. I don't think that Margot was really in the running, although we loved her performance. Comedy performances don't generally do well at the Oscars. So the fact that we're upset by it shouldn't be such a surprise. I mean, I don't know if we are upset about it, but there is a reaction in that way. And is that also to do with what the Oscars want to be seen as nominating, highlighting, cultural snobbery, perhaps? Well, it's different from other.

I mean, the Critics Circle this year made completely different nominations than, well, completely, but very different. I mean, Janet Yang was the president of AMPUS. There was 11,000 members across 93 countries. And these categories are voted for by their peers, except for Best Picture. And then they open up the third NOMS to everybody. So I think diversity and also gender equality is certainly coming here, coming to the Oscars, but not too soon. America Ferreira also nominated for her role. And my colleague Anita spoke to America about her role in the Barbie movie.

Let's just have a part for you. And it's, you know, it's got to be you. And I've been doing my work as an actress in this industry for over 20 years. And, you know, it sort of feels like as a Latina actress, as a woman of color, as someone who has been from the beginning of my career slotted into certain lanes and certain boxes, that even in success, the opportunities to really branch out and do things that are not, you know, so, so tightly

labeled, um, are, are few and far between. And I kind of got to a point where I thought like, I'm going to have to do that for myself. You know, I'm going to have to produce and for myself and for others to get those opportunities. And so it was incredibly unexpected to get to get a phone call from Greta that that she was inviting me to be in this world and that, you know, she had written the character Latina, but there was no It was more about her being a human in a pretend world. It was about being a mother. It was about being a woman. It was about more label, you know, kind of a larger box that I got to play in. And that was really wonderful personally.

Listening to that with me, the film journalist Karen Krzymanowicz and America Ferreira there. You know, do we care about the Oscars? Do they matter still? Well, they're kind of the Christmas of the film awards. You know, it is a big deal. It makes a difference if you're in the industry.

And it makes producers and other people take note if you get a nomination or win. The general public, I have to say, the viewing numbers have been dropping and dropping and dropping over the years. And probably globally, it is less important than it was. But I think it still means something. When I say Oscar winner to you, you know what it means. Yes. And I suppose I ask because, you know, we're now in a world where, you know, is the blockbuster back in that sense post-COVID? Where we go out, what we see. I know it matters what gets made, but how we feel about that world and are we back to being in love with movies again, do you think?

I think we've always been in love with movies. Just where we watch them, I think, is the issue. Statistically, I think the best movie Oscar is the one that makes the difference getting ordinary people who aren't in the industry or aren't in the media to go see a film. Or word of mouth is great. But the big screen has not recovered from COVID yet. The writer's strike certainly hasn't helped.

And I think this is a very, very strong year, 2024, 2023, to see films. So if you haven't seen Barbie, at least read the script because the script is hilarious. I think some of it, when I did watch it, and I did admit this at the time, I think I had two sleeps, but I have a relatively new child. Yeah, I had two very good sleeps during Barbie, but I still got it and I think

it would have read really well. I actually had the same view because I really enjoyed the script. Whether I enjoyed it as a movie, I was slightly in a different place. Is there anything else you think from this list that we should take away from it, and especially about the role of women when you look down the Oscars list? Well, you know, we were shocked that no Rosamund Pike in Saltburn. Britain seems to have a bit of a cold shoulder this year.

But still, two British performers, actresses, have made the cut. And I think... That's Carrie Mulligan in Maestro and Emily Blunt as Kitty Oppenheimer. That's right. But I think that overall, it's a very, very strong year. And if you've seen five of the ten Best Picture nominations, then I think you're doing pretty well. Yes.

I mean, you did mention Saltburn there. Quite the divisive one. Very much so. Where are you on this? I feel I should ask an well. Yes, I mean, you did mention Saltburn there. Quite the divisive one. Very much so. Where are you on this? I feel I should ask an expert. I like the first half. No spoiler alert. Could you skip the second half?

I love the look of it, and I love the cinematography and the set design and the production design. But, yeah, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful year. There's films for everybody, including Godzilla Minus One, which does have women in it. Okay, that's good to know. But I think Godzilla himself is male.

I've got the rapper Princess Superstar on tomorrow who, following her song Perfect featuring in the soundtrack for Salt Burn, will, I'm sure, tell us how it feels to finally have some recognition, you know, three decades in the industry and how she's kept going. So do stay with us for that for tomorrow. Join us, I should say. But but in terms of, you know, the idea, I just saw this the other day. One more quick thought, if I can, from you about, you know, Barbie versus Oppenheimer, if you were to put it like that. You know, the biopics of a serious man with a serious career versus a plastic doll in a pink truck.

You know, you're laughing, but come on. You have to laugh because it's the seriousness of the world. And it's also the seriousness of it's something that's, Barbie is so serious that it can't actually be posed in something other than an artificial world. It really is an important film. It's just dressed up like candy. It's just what, sorry? Dressed up like candy.

Dressed up like candy. Okay, I like that. Well, yes, I think that will have put some people off from, as you say, some decent scripting. But it's also interesting, you know, a new Amy Winehouse film coming up. And there's been some comment about it's always, you know, women are painted as figures of tragedy in biopics,

whereas, you know, we do men in substantial ways. It's not always the case, but what we're drawn to and why and how we're drawn to it is still an ongoing discussion. Karen Krasanovic, thank you very much for being with us today. And thank you to you for so many messages today. I have to say, none of you are looking forward or would ever be OK, it seems, with a message from Rishi Sunak telling you to have more babies or one baby at all so I'm happy we got that sorted I like to get issues sorted I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one. Cobalt a thriller from BBC Radio 4. Hey dad the person you're trying to reach is not available.

£603 to Rwand Air. That's the price of a one-way ticket to Zimbabwe. Good afternoon, ma'am. We're looking for Mr Manfred Zibanda. Is there a problem? Not yet. They've been in a few times this week looking for the cardboard that went missing. Would you risk it for 20 million?

What the hell is that doing in Zimbabwe right now? Cobalt. On BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.