Woman's Hour - Clare Connor, Archers BRCA storyline, Yassmin Abdel-Magied

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

The Women’s T20 cricket world cup begins on Friday. Nuala McGovern talks to Clare Connor, former England women’s captain, now the outgoing Managing Director of England Women. Over her 18 years in the job Clare has overseen the professionalisation of the women’s game as well as a big boost in the grassroots participation.Conservative Party leader Kemi Badenoch is arguing that the Public Sector Equality Duty should be scrapped. This duty exists to make public authorities think about things like discrimination and the needs of people who are disadvantaged, or suffer inequality, when they make decisions about how they provide their services. This is in addition to their legal obligation not to discriminate against protected groups, including women, under the Equality Act. We speak to BBC political correspondent Alex Forsyth. The Archers on BBC Radio 4 has been exploring cancer genetics. When Pip discovered a lump in her breast, old fears were revived for her mother Ruth, who survived breast cancer many years earlier. BRCA genes can lead to a higher chance of developing cancer and Pip begins to worry she may be at risk. Felicity Finch, who plays Ruth Archer, joins Nuala along with Julian Barwell, Professor in Genomic Medicine at The University of Leicester.Sudanese-Australian writer Yassmin Abdel-Magied has written her first novel for adults, At Sea. It’s set on an oil rig in the middle of international waters, and is so detailed on the lifestyle and logistics that it’s perhaps no surprise that Yassmin worked in the industry after studying mechanical engineering at university. She joins Nuala.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. The Conservative Party leader, Kimmy Badnock, has said rules requiring public bodies such as schools and hospitals to promote equality when making decisions should be scrapped. So what does that mean exactly? And how would her proposal affect women?

We'll explain. Also today, we'll hear from Claire Connor. The woman who transformed cricket in England and Wales. She wanted to make it as normal for a girl to pick up a cricket bat as a boy. Well, she's leaving her role at the England and Wales Cricket Board after this summer's T20 Women's World Cup that kicks off on Friday. And we'll have Felicity Finch,

aka Ruth, from the Archers with us. They have a fascinating storyline about the complexities of dealing with an inherited cancer risk, specifically the bracket gene mutation. The mutation significantly raises your risk of developing certain cancers. They delve into the decision on whether or not to test. And I'm wondering if this is something

you've gone through with your family. Also, how did you decide to test or not? Did your siblings agree or differ from your decision? I'd be really interested in hearing your stories and your thought process going through a decision like that. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour

or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number is 037100-100-444. Also this hour, the Sudanese Australian writer Yasmin Abdel-Majid will be with me in studio. She's a former mechanical engineer who worked on oil rigs all around Australia. And that experience came in handy for her debut adult novel at sea. So that's all coming up this hour. But let me begin.

You're also hearing in the news bulletin that the Conservative Party leader, Kemi Badnock, is giving a speech in about half an hour, arguing that the public sector equality duty should be scrapped. So this duty exists to make public authorities think about things like discrimination and the needs of people who are disadvantaged or suffer inequality when they make decisions about how they provide their services or implement policies. This is in addition to their legal obligation not to discriminate against you under the Equality Act. Let's listen to Kemi Baitnock on the Today program this morning.

The Equality Act is there to protect everybody. There are many white people who have successfully used it to protect themselves against discrimination. Christians have used it to protect themselves. Men have used it to protect themselves. It protects everybody. But the public sector equality duty has created things like the police having race action plans in order to meet the public sector equality duty. So that was Kimi Bade Nock a little earlier this morning on Radio 4. I'm joined now by Alex Forsyth, the BBC's political correspondent and presenter of Radio 4's question time.

A little bit noisy in the background there, Alex. I understand you're at the Institute for Government waiting for the speech to begin. Can you explain a little bit more of what the public sector equality duty is or sometimes called the PSED? Hello, yeah, good morning. Sorry if there's a bit of hubbub, but as you say, we're waiting to hear from Kemi Badox spelling out what she's planning to do. So, yeah, the background to this. I mean, this is a statutory duty, so a legal duty. on a whole list of public authorities and other bodies that carry out public functions. So think about things like schools or hospitals or the police. And the idea is that it tries to make those organisations think about how what they're doing

will affect people with different protected characteristics. And protected characteristics can be things like age or disability or race or religion or sex. And when I was reading about this on the government website trying to set out what this is all about, It says, for example, these bodies need to think when they're drawing up a new public policy or they're publishing a consultation document, how that might affect people with those protected characteristics, with the idea of trying to very deliberately avoid discrimination. So there was a little snippet of Ms. Bajonach there talking about how she feels the Equality Act is there to protect everybody. But what about scrapping the public sector equality duty?

what difference would it make? What Kimmy Badenog's arguing is that the Equality Act is there already to protect these people from discrimination. So you can use the Equality Act to ensure that you are not facing discrimination if you fall into one of those groups with protected characteristics. She's suggesting that this extra public sector equality duty is meaning that public bodies are spending too much time thinking about that. That's informing and shaping their decisions in a way that she says can sometimes be divisive. so she wants to bring it back to what she is calling common sense. But of course there are questions about how this would work in practice, what it might mean for specific groups who have specific characteristics

that are currently protected under this legal duty that public bodies have to do. And I think that's what she's going to be asked about today in this speech. Yeah, interesting. So why is she saying this now? There has been a lot of attention given to her words. Kimmy Badenock has been talking for some time about what she calls identity politics. She doesn't think that's a good thing. She thinks there has been too much focus and emphasis on it.

But of course, you've got to bear in mind the context that we are looking at now, which is, of course, the murder of Henry Novak, the video footage that was released from the police body cam, and all of the questions that sparked about specifically in that case how allegations of racism may or may not have informed the police decision and the police actions in that moment. So I think it's given real impetus to this whole discussion around this, although the Conservatives say they've been working on these specific plans for some time.

There's also the politics that we can't ignore. So you have, for example, got Reform UK saying they would go further, they would get rid of the Equality Act altogether. Labour, on the other hand, they're actually in the process of drawing up some new policies around diversity, equity and inclusion, which they say would really focus on people from, working class backgrounds, for example, trying to get them into the civil service. So this whole

agenda, this whole discussion has really become at the forefront of the political discourse right now. And while Kemi-Badenoch has been talking about this for some time, I think what we saw with the reaction to what happened in the case of Henry Novak has just really fuelled that. So she may be, in a way, putting out the conservative stall on this particular issue, which is garnering a lot of headlines, as you mentioned. Women are not a protected group under the Equality Act. Not a minority group, excuse me. They are a protected group under the Equality Act, but they're not a minority group.

What kind of things could change if, in fact, the public sector, equality duty, were scrapped? I mean, that is one of the absolutely key questions, because when you look at the relevant protected characteristics that are listed on the government website that would be protected by this specific statutory duty, among them, pregnancy and maternity, and sex. And we've already heard from Liz Kendall, who is the government, so the Labor Government's Technology Secretary this morning. And what she's saying is that Kemi Badenock needs to set out which protections in her words she's going to remove. For example, she was raising the case of perhaps women who get worried about the impact on their jobs when perhaps they get pregnant

or they go on maternity leave. Now, the Conservatives are pushing back pretty firmly on that and saying that is why the Equality Act is there. That would still provide adequate protection for those women in those specific circumstances. But of course there are going to be questions about the specifics of this. I mean, when Kemi Bader Not was speaking on Radio 4 this morning, she was using examples specifically about race. So she was talking, for example, about how there might be an association of black police officers. And while it might be fine for them to go to the pub,

they shouldn't be advancing that in the workplace. But I think the specifics are still definitely going to be subject to questions. And I think that example that she spoke about or that you allude to, Alex is really interesting because we often talk about women's networks, for example, or their importance that it can be in women becoming more influential in certain sectors. So do we know anything about women's networks in the public sector workplaces? Yeah, well, not specifically, I suspect, you know, given what we heard from Kemi Bacon up this morning,

where she was talking about that example of, example, a sort of black police officers association. I mean, you could say there might be something similar, for example, a women's network, as in, find how a woman's network, but the argument the conservative seemed to be putting forward is it's about using that to kind of advance rights or protections in the workplace or when it comes to the duties of public bodies. But that is exactly going to be the line for questioning, because at the moment, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which kind of

monitors all of this stuff, they say that the very purpose of this duty is to make sure that public authorities think about how they promote equality throughout their day-to-day business. Now, Kemi Baderna's argument is effectively there's been a bit of an over-correction on that, She says people are spending too much time thinking about that and not getting on with their jobs, which is what she's calling the kind of common sense approach. But, you know, there will be people that point out part of the reason for these statutory duties to have been developed in the first place is that many minority groups, for example, have suffered years of discrimination. They're designed to protect that.

And so there are going to be questions about how this might apply in practice. And what that would mean for women, not a minority group, but sex as a protected characteristics, as well as those minority groups themselves. Really interesting and Kimmy Bedrock did say that she was for freedom of association but speaking very specifically about public sector workplaces when it comes to the public sector equality duty. Alex Forsy, thank you very much for giving us that insight,

BBC political correspondent and presenter of Radio 4's question time. Now let us turn to a woman who has been called one of the most influential figures in cricket. Claire Conner, the managing director of England's women's cricket, will leave the job after this summer. And what a way to go as England and Wales host the ICC Women's T20 World Cup. It begins this Friday at Edgebuston, England and Scotland and Ireland, they're all taking part. And when I spoke to Claire, I asked her how she's feeling in this momentous week. Unbelievably excited.

Yeah, look, this World Cup has been really something in the making. The biggest World Cup we've ever had in the women's game, so it couldn't be more excited. And why is that, do you think? What is it about this moment in time? Oh, I think it's lots of things. I think it's the sort of the wider women's sport movement, the success that we've seen from the lionesses, the red roses in their high-profile competitions.

I think it's the fact that women's cricket now is really breaking into the mainstream. We've got more professional players around the world than ever before. And a game that's in rude health, you know, 12 teams taking part, including Ireland. For the first time, you know, 12-team. tournament and the coverage and reach of that tournament will hopefully inspire more boys and girls, particularly girls, of course, to follow the game. So how do you see the England women's

chances? I think we've got a great chance. I've obviously watched the team progress over the last 18 months, particularly after a difficult ashes last winter. We've made some changes to our leadership of the team and we're getting better and better and that's exactly what you have to do in, you know, on the eve of a tournament. We've had good series wins again. against New Zealand and India in the last couple of weeks in this format. We're clear on, you know, getting really clear on what our strongest team is. It's real competition for places. And we're ranked second in the world.

You know, you mentioned 18 months there and some of the changes that have come in. But you're coming to the end of 18 years in the game, which it must be quite incredible to look back on that time, but also hosting this tournament, and I can hear the excitement in your voice and how pivotal you feel it is for the game. as you come to the end of your role. Yeah, that's right. 18 years sort of overseeing the women's game

from a wholly amateur game to now fully professional. And before that, you know, I played for England for 10 years. So really it's nearly 30 years of being completely immersed in it. And it's been the biggest privilege to have been part of all of those changes, all of that progress, greater equity in the game. I've loved it, but all good things come to an end. And I think the ending this summer, you know, it'll be a fitting, celebration this summer of where the women's game is. And so that's why I think this summer is a

really good time to sort of say goodbye for a little bit. And I feel that the game now, not just at England level or even professional domestic level, but at every kind of touch point in the game, whether it's coaching, umpiring, playing in a pathway team, playing in community teams, playing in a club setting. There is opportunity everywhere now for women and girls in the game. And I think, you know, collectively everyone should be really proud of that because progress particularly over the last five years has been extraordinary. Let me run through some of the aspects that you have brought up. You alluded there to the team and like having the best team.

What needed to change? Because we mentioned the Ashes defeat. You announced an urgent review into the England women's game. In broad strokes, what were the changes you needed to happen? Well, look, it was nearly 18 months ago and sport moves on very quickly, doesn't it? You know, there were just a few key areas that we were really letting ourselves down in. And so we addressed those. We did a very thorough review of, as you mentioned, that sort of got presented to our board.

And we made some changes. We made some changes in terms of the leadership personnel of the team. We made some changes about how we went about things. And, you know, I think critically, the critical role, really, for any elite sports team is the head coach role. We brought in Charlotte Edwards into the role about 14, 15 months ago. She's the world's best head coach in the women's game, you know, second to none. She's former England captain, World Cup winner, Ashes winner, coached all over the world in Australia and India. And the timing was perfect to bring her in into that role.

And she's made an enormous difference. So, yeah, as I said, we're tracking in the right direction now, lots of the areas that we focused on. We've seen real improvement in, which is really pleasing going into such an enormous event this summer. And a new captain as well. Yes, that's right. Let's talk a little bit more about her, Nat's Everbrunt. She's in the role for about a year now. Just over, yeah.

Tell me a little bit about her journey. Nat's an amazing young woman. She's a mum. She's got a little boy who's just over a year old. She had probably quite a similar journey to many of us in the game. She started playing boys cricket. She was very talented young sportswoman. She could have probably picked football, hockey, tennis, golf, to be honest.

travelled around a lot as a young woman due to her mother's diplomatic assignments around the world. I think she ended up playing for Epsom, Boys' first 11, when she was 17 or 18, and then shortly thereafter kind of burst onto the England stage. She's, in my view, she's the best all-rounder in the world, certainly, you know, one of the best top order batters in the world, very humble. And we're glad to have her back. She's been injured for a little while. she's missed these last couple of series against New Zealand and India,

but is good to go ready for this week. But you talk there about that big arena, so to speak, and the pressure that there can be on players, and we'll talk about moving from amateur to professional in a moment. But what sort of support is in place for those players? At the top end. Yes. Oh, well, any sort of support you could possibly imagine,

whether it's around sort of psychology and wellbeing, whether it's around nutrition, science and medicine, medical. We've got a women's sport research group looking, trying to, you know, really gather at speed research and data into specific women's injuries. Pelvic health. We have a whole host of brilliant specialist coaches, technical skills coaches for the players, strength and conditioning coaches. So it is an environment now that supports the players, pays the players very equitably and I believe is setting them up for success. Because I mentioned as well, we do know that Sophie Eccleston.

She did take time after the ashes for mental health reasons, but there is support in place to help. Because I'm just thinking of the pressure that comes, obviously, with being in the global spotlight. Yeah, we have all of that support in place. And the players know the channels to access that support. I would say we've got an empathetic environment, you know, that sort of strikes the right balance between empathy,

but also high performance. And that's sometimes a tricky balance to strike. where you're sort of pushing players and, you know, wanting, as hard as you can, as hard as you can, and you want performance and you want, you know, for them. You want them as individuals and as a team to hit their potential and have the best time playing for their country or playing domestic cricket underneath that. So getting the right support systems in place is really important. And perhaps that is easier if they are professional.

You know, looking back over your years, one of your money achievements was seeing the move from amateur to professional. Tell me why that matters and what difference it makes to the woman who is playing. Yeah, look, it matters for lots of reasons, not just sort of equality, which is very important, but it matters to those players at the top

end, and it matters to little girls looking at our sport. It matters to players at the top end because they feel valued, properly remunerated, and they feel like cricket can be their sole focus, and therefore there are enough hours in the day,

to get better and to reflect and to constantly be improving as cricketers. That's ultimately why professional sport, you know, has, you know, the professionalisation of all sport has yielded such an uptick in performance. You know, when I played the game, I was played for England for 10 years. I was completely amateur. I combined it with being an English teacher, doing a bit of media work. And, yeah, I didn't earn a penny for 10 years.

And now our players are earning probably more than any other women's, most women's sports stars or teams in this country. But it also matters, it really matters for the grassroots of the game and for girls and women embarking on the game because it shows them that cricket values women and girls to the extent that it has always valued men and boys. And that's really important in aspiration and feeling included. We mentioned you had a successful career playing cricket,

became England's captain, winning the Ashes in. 2005. Can you believe that was 21 years ago? I can't. But how different was the game back then? Oh, well, it was, yeah, sort of unrecognisable, really, as I've said, in that we were all amateur. We were only together as an England team for probably 50 odd days a year compared now to, you know, some years our England players are together for maybe 125, 140 days a year. We didn't have the sort of structures underneath us or the support around us, but we still, I suppose, the common thread was a love of the game, a love of playing for England and a real drive to sort of be the best that we could be. But the game itself is unrecognisable from then.

Yeah, because as we've talked about, it's growth. But, you know, there are other parts, even away from the cricket pitch. For example, I'm just thinking back to the 90s, when you weren't allowed in the long room at Lourdes. But I managed to have a peek in when I was there, which is, you know, beautiful, ornate, historic, a place you want to be. When I first played for England at Lords in 1997, I was 21. Women weren't allowed in the long room, yet I was an England player playing at Lords at the home of cricket with all its kind of meaning and tradition. And then, as you say, you know, I became the first female president of the MCC 25 years later or whatever.

So I've seen enormous change. I mean, how did it feel to love something? so much that part of it still didn't love you or want you. Yeah, well, it didn't feel great, but I think back then we were grateful. We were grateful to be playing at Lords. We were grateful to be playing for England and to be having these amazing opportunities, touring the world, albeit as amateurs. So, you know, we were optimistic and we, you know, we seized the opportunities that we did have. And it's thanks to the likes of, you know, the late Rachel Hayhoe Flint and lots of people, you know, who supported her at the MCC,

that women were eventually allowed to become members of MCC. I'm speaking at an MCC members event. I think there's over 100 people coming next week to celebrate the fact that women are, you know, are included throughout the MCC as a club now. And yeah, you know, Lords this summer will be a real home for women's cricket. It'll host games during the World Cup. It'll host the Women's World Cup final on the 5th of July, which is selling out fast. And then it'll host a world.

week later the first ever women's test match at Lords between England and India. So, you know, it's, it is a, as I said at the beginning, it is an enormous privilege to be able to reflect back on the standing of the women's game and women in cricket, you know, when I was a player, 30 years ago or so through to where we are now. Claire Connor, managing director of England women's cricket. Tickets are still available for the matches, which start this week. Just search for Women's T20 World Cup and the full tournament is live on Sky Sports with radio coverage and highlights on the BBC. And we wish Claire well. That's the right way to go out, isn't it?

Up on top. She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's pride and prejudice, comes a new Britbox original drama. Mary, you will flourish. Based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox.

Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart, with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Now, let me turn to the archery. For the last couple of months, a storyline in the archers here on Radio 4

has been exploring the dilemmas around inherited cancer risk. That's after Pip Archer discovered a lump in her breast. Pip has been given the all clear, but because her mother Ruth had breast cancer years ago, doctors have raised the possibility that there could be an inherited genetic risk in the family, known as the Bracko 1 or 2 gene variant, and that would increase the chances of developing certain cancers. Pip has been getting increasingly anxious about it.

Let's hear a clip from the drama. This is from last month when things came to a head. What's wrong, Pip? I feel terrible. Should you be in bed? No, no, I'm not ill. I'm just worried, sick, and I've been looking things up. Things like genetic.

Bracka 1 and 2, and there's about 5 or 6 other genes that could be faulty, and it's not just breast cancer either. Some increase the risk of getting other cancers, like ovarian cancer. You're bound to start panicking if you're doom-scrolling the internet. Where's Stella? She's gone out with work. Ben's with Rosie. Well, if I'd known you were going to be on your own tonight,

worrying, I'd have stared at Rickard with you. Mum, I don't need a babysitter. I need answers. I think you've just got yourself into a stare. Going down rabbit halls, you're panicking yourself. Because there's a reason to panic. I'm 33 and I'm worried I'm carrying a death sentence in my DNA. Felicity Finch as Ruth, Daisy Badger, playing Pip.

So Pip's Mum Ruth, she faces a difficult decision whether to have NHS genetic testing to see if she is a carrier of the gene variant which she may have passed on to her children. And it is a dilemma, and I'm hearing from a lot of you this morning, faced by women and families all around the UK every day. So to find out more about the bracketing variant is Julian Barwell, Professor of Genetics at the University of Leicester.

Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me on. And with me in studio is the actor Felicity Finch, who plays, of course, Ruth Archer. Welcome back to Wamp's Hour. Thank you. Great to have you with us. Felicity, let me start with you.

What are your memories of playing Ruth's going through breast cancer all those years ago? Many of our listeners will remember. It was a long time ago. I mean, it was in 2000. And Ruth was only 24 at that time. And I think my memories are mostly around the sense of responsibility of, you know, doing a storyline like that. Just wanting to be true, truthful and accurate and all those things, which, of course, whenever the archers is dealing with a big storyline of this kind,

you know, there's a tremendous amount of research goes into it. But I myself, at that point, I got in touch with three women who had had breast cancer and I spoke to them when the new scripts came in each month. I'd see what those scripts were dealing with. And then I talked to each them about their experiences of that time, which would then, to a certain extent, influence me, but just to know what they felt, but every woman is clearly going to have their own individual experience

and then, you know, just go with the scripts of how they were written for Ruth. But I also remember very much that the story also focused on David, my husband, and how he felt. And I remember listeners responding and, you know, being really grateful for that because often the partner is just forgotten always feels very, very lonely. And I think the other main thing that I remember is, when Ruth had had the mastectomy is that the recovery time

I mean something the archers can do very well and this was a really good example of it is that every story is very much in real time so the recovery from ammestectomy you know how long does that take when can Ruth start doing work again I remember that Ruth wanted to do it a lot sooner than David wanted her to

but just being true to it I mean emotionally and physically the fallout the ripple effect afterwards And the ripple effect that goes for decades because here we are again with another consequence of that time. Julian, let me bring you in here.

The Brackage gene variant. Some will be very familiar with this, others won't. What does it mean for a woman to learn that she has it? Well, about 1 in 400 people have a change in either Bracca 1 or Bracca 2, which increases the risk of breast and also

ovarian cancer. So in the general population, The chance of developing breast cancer is about 12%. One in eight women can develop breast cancer, but most of it is after the menopause. The thing about breast cancer genes, such as Bracca 1, Bracca 2, much higher risk at a younger age in particular. So we say, for instance, for Brac 1, 50% risk by age 50, 70% by age 70, 80 by age 80, and about half that for ovarian. So 50% by 50 is a lot higher at a young age 50. age in particular. So that's why people are so worried if tests show that they've inherited

this type of gene change. And when do doctors recommend that a woman get tested? So normally what we do is we offer a test to somebody who's been affected with breast cancer, either at a young age, so we test anybody under the age of 40, or if they've got bilateral, so that's on both sides under the age of 60, or if they have a hormonal negative breast cancer under the age of 60, or if they have a hormonal negative breast cancer under the age of 60. There are also other indications. So if you have a family history of breast and ovarian cancer, that can be a reason.

Jewish ancestry can increase the risk because about 1 in 40 women from that population carry a significant gene change as well. So all of these things add up and we can do also computer modelling to work out the risk. I put it out to our listeners, many coming in. My daughter and I decided to test as Ashkenazi Jewish women. and they have a much higher chance, she says, of having the faulty brackage gene,

even though I'm only half Jewish on my father's side and my daughter is a quarter, we decided it was better to know and make a decision based on fact than suddenly getting, rather than suddenly getting cancer in later life. We're waiting for our results at the moment. Well, I wish you well with that, and thank you for getting in touch 844 if you would like to. Felicity, Ruth comes under a lot of pressure from her daughter, Pip, to get a test. Tell us a little bit about the response to that because I think it brings up some of these complexities.

Well, I think it's so difficult the dilemma for Ruth. You know, as you could tell from the clip that was played at the top of the item, is that Pip is beside herself. She's doom scrolling. She's thinking the worst. Ruth, by now, she's spoken to her GP at length and is waiting to decide whether to have.

have a, you know, counselling and then decide whether to have the test. So Ruth's at a point, although obviously very worried inside, of trying to calm Pip, I think, and say, you know, if you were high risk, you would be referred. And wouldn't it be better if for the moment you can celebrate the fact that, you know, the lump was not breast cancer. It was a benign cyst. You're in your life. You're planning your wedding.

Why not concentrate on those things for the time being? and also trying to, I mean, it's very hard for Ruth to express to Pip why she maybe wouldn't have the test. So for the moment she's just saying to her, you know, I need to make the right decision for myself. I personally find that quite hard, but obviously you may go on to, you know, talk about more about the children and what that involves.

because I guess Julian this is about who are you responsible to, right? The autonomy of the patient in taking a test. I'd just be fascinated to know how you help patients decide whether or not it's the right time to take a test and the ramifications of knowing. So everyone has their own autonomy and a right not to go through testing. But families often need to work together and to communicate effectively to be able to give out results for people who are at risk. So basically, if somebody wants a test, so if Ruth would want a test, even if other members of the family may not be so keen, if the test is going to be helpful for her to understand the cause of her condition and maybe plan screening moving forward or treatment,

she would be certainly supported through testing. people do worry about issues of guilt and of course there is transgenerational trauma because what happens is that a lady develops breast cancer perhaps she's got a daughter and then perhaps that daughter gets to the age that her mother was when she developed breast cancer and maybe she's got a daughter of the same age that she was so we get the cycles of trauma as well as the psychosexual and obviously people's concerns about the risk of dying so there's a lot to consider but the crucial thing is is, are people supported? Do they understand the implications of the test? And how is the test going to be helpful for them moving forward? It may be that we can't get everybody into an absolutely perfect psychological position to cope. But can we make sure we get them in as good a position as possible? And this is where we have the support of our genetic counseling teams, but also things like the National Hereditary Breast Cancer Helpline. And it's important to know these genes can pass through the male line as well. So,

ask about the paternal grandmother and the paternal aunt and also think about prostate cancer in men. Yes, and I want to come back to that. I want to read a message that came in from one of our listeners. This is Jackie. She says, I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2024 and had breast cancer in 2010, so it was suggested I could be tested. I agreed and found out I have the bracket two mutation. It was more of a blow than I realized. and I felt guilt that I'd brought this to my family, although I realized it's not my fault. I have sons, but my sister has daughters,

and so she decided to get tested. Fortunately, she and my brother don't have the genetic mutation, which is great for her daughters, but I must admit, thinking, just me then, it's a horrible thing to know I have to live with this for the rest of my life. I feel like I'm just waiting for the cancer to return, but I'm also forewarned, as are my family,

which is a good thing. So she has gone through that whole roller coaster off emotions. But she talks about daughters and sons. Is there an elevated risk for sons as well? Yes. So for Bracca 2, we say the rule of 7%, which is 7% of men with Bracca 2 will develop breast cancer. And if you have male breast cancer,

the chance that it's Bracca 2 is about 7%. So there is an increased risk of male breast cancer. and there's an increased risk of prostate cancer. And screening is very important, and you may have seen it, there was a national announcement about a new screening program, particularly for Bracotoo, which is really exciting moving forward, and we hope will be expanded to other high-risk genes in time as well. So it is important for men to be aware,

but there also is the reproductive risk for men when they pass, can theoretically pass it on. But it is important for somebody who's had ovarian cancer to be aware. there are targeted treatments now which look at the weakness that the gene change actually induces in the tumour. It's what I call the Star Wars effect. You can't destroy the Death Star until you've got the plans. So if you can understand what is driving the tumour, you have a much better chance of being able to treat it and hopefully in time preventing it. So that is some of why the knowledge could be useful in helping you. Another one from Lou. My wonderful brave mum died because of the

Brackawun mutation age 39. I've inherited the gene mutation and was in the incredibly fortunate position to be able to be tested in my 30s and to have preventative surgery for breast and ovarian cancer. It is of course a personal decision. But if you've witnessed a brave, gentle soul fade away in front of you because of a cancer mutation. It's pretty straight, it is a pretty straightforward decision to get tested. So says Lou. I'll be 47 in a few weeks time, but may well have been toast without getting tested. My very best wish is to anyone who is going through. this. So obviously a lot of people going through it right

now. Felicity, Ruth finds the decision extremely hard. How much of that do you think because it's not just her own health? It's kind of hard for her to have pure autonomy. Oh, absolutely. And I think it's also interesting that you said that Pip is 33

as I said and I hadn't put those two things together. You know, I was 34 when I had breast cancer. So there is that. The mother-daughter cycle there of the same, even the same age, Pips dealing with. But Josh, you know, her son in his late 20s, doesn't want to know. And Ben, who's 24, I think, at the moment, he's, he said that he wanted me to do the best

thing for myself, but in the end, Ruth really pushed him to say, well, what if it was you making the decision? He said, yes, I would really want to know. So, yeah, Ruth has got this huge dilemma and feels, I mean, initially felt tremendous guilt and blame if, you know, if the gene is passed on. So how, I don't know, I mean, I don't know what happens. So I feel the dilemma in hearing these women's experiences who are getting in touch with women's hour, I almost hope that, you know, Ruth's doing that kind of listening and research and eventually will come to her own decision. But, you know, a word that has come up a number of times is guilt.

Julian, how do you help women feeling with these emotions of guilt, really, that they've passed on something to their children, for example, or could potentially pass it on? Like, even in our few minutes, I've seen it repeatedly. So the first thing to say is you don't control which genes you're passed on. These genes were only sort of discovered at the beginning of 90s. Nobody had the choice. as to whether to pass on these genes.

Obviously, moving forward, people can think about that with things like IVF and what's called pre-implantation genetic testing. But it is important to know that although the risks are very high, there are things that can be done. So you can have screening, which may pick things up at an early stage. For some of the genes, particularly BRCA II, there is what's called chemo prevention to reduce the risk of tumours. But then there is definitive surgery, which massively lowers the risk.

So on one side, there are issues of control and guilt. But on the other side, there are things that can be done. So it is a message of hope. With the transgenerational trauma, this may be going back thousands of years in the family. So at last, people have knowledge, they have options, and there's an opportunity for wisdom and an opportunity for action. Sometimes fear gets smaller when we walk towards it. It is very difficult.

It is extremely difficult these types of problems to deal with. and half the battle is also psychological. But there are things that can be done and there is support out there for people. I want to bring another clip from an episode of The Archers that was broadcast last night. So if you prefer to listen to the repeat this afternoon,

you just turn your radio down for about 37 seconds. This is Pip and her partner. Stella chatting after Pip has spoken to a genetic counsellor. So, what did they say? Quite a lot in the end. Right. She talked about the testing process and how it can throw up all kinds of issues. Okay.

A lot of it about the implications for my family and how I felt about that. Did you say we'd talked it all through? With each other, obviously. That's why we bought the test, even though we haven't discussed it with mum, Josh or Ben. But it's still your decision? Of course. But if I have the test, Josh is bound to find out the result one way or another because we have to tell mum Ben. Well, unfortunately, that can't be helped.

Daisy Badger playing Pip and. Lucy Speed there as Stella. A couple of more messages. Here's one from Beth, who said, I decided to be tested 13 years ago due to the gene fault in my father's family. I waited until my family was complete as I didn't want to influence my decision to have children.

It felt devastating to hear I was positive and to decide what to do. I opted to have my ovaries removed but not a mastectomy. Since then, I've had excellent care from Leeds hospitals, annual MRIs, mammograms, involvement in research to benefit women and men in the future.

I'm a healthy 55-year-old who feels very well looked after. Glad to hear it, 844-if you do want to get in touch. You know, you mentioned Felicity about the breast cancer original story happening to Ruth, happening in real time. This does too. It's over several weeks the amount of time it may be in real life. How does that impact you and the listener? how this slowly unfolds?

Well, it's, I mean, that clip was about private testing. So that's what Pipp is doing off her own back without having told Ruth yet. And Ruth has been told that there will be a waiting list if she does decide to have the test, and it will take time. At the moment, I feel that Ruth really needs and wants that time. So time is a real, it will probably go on for weeks, if not months, I'm guessing.

So for the, you know, I think this journey of Ruth's, I just hope that the story for women out there, whether it raises awareness of what, that's not why a program like the archers does this story, but it will inevitably be raising awareness. And for people that know nothing about it, people that are going through it at the moment like these women and maybe reflecting the real lives of what could happen to women in the future

and men, I just hope that they in some way get something from following this story. And I think for Ruth, she needs this time to make decisions. She needs the time. The complexity of having a family all on the same page about something so deep, existential, really. I want to thank Professor Julian Barwell and Felicity Finch. You can catch up on the whole of this storyline in the archery. by going to BBC Sounds.

And of course, you'll also find the Archer's podcast presented by Emma Freud. If you have been affected by any of the issues we've been discussing, advice can be found via the BBC Action Line. And if you do have a particular health concern, please do consult your GP. New Ground is the UK's first purpose-built co-housing community for women over 50, designed and developed on their own terms. There are 25 self-contained flats,

along with a number of shared communal spaces. the women moved in 10 years ago, the community is still going strong. One of its residents, Anne, told Kylie about the realities of living there. You find you prefer some people over others. And sometimes decision-making can be quite torturous. Because it's run by consensus, right? And some people want that decision-making to be used for every little detail. And other people are quite easy-going and say,

well, I'll go with the majority, you know. But it is tricky sometimes and it's not for everyone. When I first moved there, I thought I was a very sociable person, but actually I found out that I'm actually quite private and I had to balance that with people. And I think it is a beautiful place to live, but, you know, it requires commitment, lots of commitment, to make it all work.

Because there is a communal meal every week, but that's not for you, Anne. No. No, it's definitely not for me. I'm not the world's best cook, and I certainly don't want to cook for 20 plus people. And on a Friday night, where I work full times, on a Friday night, when I come home,

that's the last thing in the world I want to do. So I said to them, I'm not going to cook, and some people didn't like it, but most people said, yes, good for you. I'm glad you said it out loud. That was the place for co-housing, Women Over 50s. If you want to listen to that discussion in full, featuring another resident Jude as well, you can listen back to Women's Hour.

The episode is on the 4th of June. That's a Thursday, and it's on BBC Sounds. Now, my next guest, Yasmin Abdel Majid, has written her first novel for adults. Not the first book she's written, though. It's called At Sea. It's set on an oil rig in the middle of international waters. Hard to know exactly where. It's so detailed about the lifestyle and logistics that perhaps it's no surprise to find out that Yasmin did work in that industry after studying mechanical engineering at university,

but now she's a writer sitting opposite me in the Woman's Ares studio. Good to have you with us. Thank you so much for having me. So you've written young adult fiction before. Why the leap? Indeed. So I think, I mean, you can't really set a young adult fiction or a sort of middle grade fiction novel on an oil rig.

Maybe you could. Yeah, that's a whole other kind of world. But I think for me, there was something really interesting about I had, you know, I'd lived on Riggs for many years and I'd never actually read a novel set in the world of offshore drilling. And, you know, the only, the, there was like one memoir with an inappropriate title that I won't say on Radio 4 this morning, but there was only one book that I could find that was actually set in this world. And, and I was often thinking about how do I describe, how do I bring to life this world that I know very well to my friends who are writers and, um, and not

in that world at all. Usually I'd give them a book to explain what that world is kind of like and I couldn't find anything. So I thought maybe this will be something I could try. And actually also, the world of offshore drilling and the kind of dynamics and contradictions are challenging. And for me, fiction, literary fiction in particular, is a wonderful way to bring that to life because I could have written a memoir or nonfiction, but I wanted to do something a bit different. I wanted to put people in the shoes of somebody in that world and get them to feel what it might be like if you're facing some of the challenges. So let's talk about your protagonist, Zineb. She is a young Muslim woman. She's a jabbi. She wears a hijab. She's in this. I don't know. What are we going to call

it? Entrenched machismo world where there's, I mean, how many, they're not microaggressions. their macroaggressions. It's just all the aggression, really. Yeah. So Zanab is, she's in her late 30s. She kind of started out on the rigs as, you know, a worm. That's kind of the description of how you started out. That was a new word for me.

Is that the language? Yes. So you start out as a worm and you kind of work your way up. And she's always wanted to be a tool pusher, which means, you know, that's the person who sort of runs the rig itself. And her boss comes to her when she's at home with her pregnant sister and says, I've got that promotion you've wanted from driller to tool pusher, but there's a catch. the rig in question

something's going down something bad's happening I don't know what it is and you have to kind of sort it out so we follow her over the course of three days as she tries to figure out what's going on on the rig and tries to convince all of these men

to listen to her in time and I was really keen to sort of tease out you know it's not just kind of this amorphous archetypal masculinity like hyper masculinity it is there are all these different ways that masculinity turns up

the machismo turns up the aggression, the outsider, the in-group, out-group, kind of dynamic, the ways in which Zainab is somebody who has been on rigs for a long time, has developed techniques to manage these men. But she finds that being one of the boys, when she was part of the crew, that was one kind of set of challenges. But being the boss as the only woman on that offshore oil rig was something completely different.

Is it something you experienced? Well, maybe. I don't know. So it is true. So I started out in a particular role. I was something called an MWD specialist, which meant that I kind of got the opportunity to be on the rig, but not necessarily giving anybody else instructions. And then as I made my way up, I ended up being drilling engineer that was a position that was a leadership position. And it was actually, I mean, I should have known perhaps, but it was shocking to me how different those dynamics became instantly.

I would have people sort of say, well, you know, I've been on these rig since before you were born. So what do you think you can tell me? Right. And I didn't necessarily, there isn't anything in the book necessarily that's my direct experience, but it's all influenced and inspired by those dynamics. And I think many listeners in different industries will be able to also relate to that, whether you're, you know, in oil and gas or whether you're in a particular corporate environment or whether you're in a hospital, for example, I've had readers, someone who's an A&E consultant say to me, oh, this actually reminds me a lot of the dynamic of being in that really intense. hence high pressure kind of hospital environment. And so I think for me, something that was quite interesting was how do you tease out the way that gender dynamics and power play out? And of course, a rig gives you a beautiful setting, but these are human dynamics. The human dynamics, but I think what was also interesting for young Xenap, when she had,

there was one woman who had gone before her, who had been trailblazer. but she was more accepted by the men if she became one of the lads instead of becoming an ally to that woman and trying to make decisions about how to survive really in a very difficult male-dominated profession. It felt important for me to bring in this other. So there's another character who we meet very briefly

who was a petroleum engineer who Zainab kind of worked on the same rig with but never actually interacted with directly. And she observed this other character. and saw the way that the men, you know, this was a character who was very sort of in her womanhood, right? Very proud of being, you know, a woman and didn't hide it, didn't suppress it and was eventually punished for that on the rig. And Zainab, as a young kind of green behind the ears, rig worker looked at that and took perhaps, you know,

whether it's the right or wrong lesson, the lesson that she took was, I cannot be a woman in this environment. I have to be somebody else. And there is, this is something like, I wanted, it wasn't something that I was saying was right or wrong, but it was saying that this is what somebody like that has to do to survive. That's something, yeah. Well, she felt, certainly she felt like she had to do that. And this is also, you know, a broader question. I think I faced and I think a lot of women in these kind of masculine, hypermasculine environments, male dominated environments face. Like, how do you choose? What path do you choose in these worlds? Do you kind of ally, you. yourself with other women that come into the space? Or do you betray in a way your gender? Because that's what's safer for you. And she was almost backed into this corner in a way to survive as she felt it at that time as a young woman, as a worm.

But Zainab is a Muslim woman, as I mentioned. How do you think that affects the dynamic of your storytelling? Yeah, I thought it was quite important. As a Muslim woman myself, it felt important to kind of bring this dynamic. and into the story. And there's kind of two elements of it. There's her kind of own personal relationship with her faith, which helps her and grounds her and is something that is a repeated refrain throughout the novel.

But also it adds a different element in her relationship with the men. And there's a small section where we kind of refer, or I refer to Zainab's relationship with her headscarf, right, with her hijab. because in many other contexts that kind of sets her as an outsides up. But she found in this oil rig context, it kind of almost the experience she had was that it degendered her to a certain extent. It made her not seem as a woman. And so she found that there was some level of protection in that.

And again, this was something that I thought, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm not saying this is how it should be. But this was, you know, in some ways my experience, in some ways, an experience that I think is interesting to bring to the page because it complicates our idea of how, you know, a faith practice might be perceived in this environment. I understand you some pushback from publishers about the subject matter of the book, the fact had been on an oil rig. Yeah, I had, when I was trying to sell it, you know, I did have people directly say to me, I'm not sure that I can, like, I'm not sure it's ethical for this book to come out, you know, given the climate crisis. It's like how can you set a book set in this world? How can you try to sell a book set in this world

when the rigs are something that we know are directly related to the challenges we're seeing from a climate perspective? And also I had people suggest that I should maybe write it as a memoir. You know, it might be more effective as a memoir. And I think maybe for me, I was slightly frustrated by these responses because the book acts in my view. you as an allegory for actually for the ways in which, you know, some people who are climate scientists or climate activists feel about the climate crisis. You know, Zainab is a character who sees a crisis coming and is desperately trying to convince

the people around her to listen. And instead of listening, they're sort of looking around and, you know, through confirmation bias or groups, they're reorienting or reframing the data they see to confirm what they already believe. And that's what so many do in this climate crisis. Group think is an interesting term. I'm thinking you've had other jobs as well. You worked on a racing car team,

I heard as well. But why did you leave engineering then? Because I suppose writing is kind of the opposite of group think. Yeah. I mean, to be quite honest, it wasn't a choice that I made actively. When I wrote my

first book, Yosemian's story, which actually was a memoir. I was still working on the rigs and I had sort of told the company that I was working for that this was something that I was doing. But when the book came out, they said to me, you can't actually be both. You can't be Yasmin the individual and Yasmeen the engineer. You have to choose. And that was, you know, that was a direct kind of quote from somebody senior in the organisation. And I was like, I'm not a threat to the organisation. I don't understand why I have to choose. But ultimately, I think it was a sense of, you know, how do we control this is a voice that we cannot control.

And there is a line you have to tow if you're going to be on the rigs. And in the end, I felt like I didn't necessarily want to give up having a public voice. I didn't want to give up the choice to speak my mind as it were, whether it was on the rig, whether it was online, whether it was in prose. And so I sort of took a year leave without pay, planning to go back to engineering and never went back. And here you are with us talking about at sea. I mentioned your Sudanese Australian, grew up in Australia, born in Sudan, which has been battling a civil war for over three years now, resulting in the world's worst humanitarian crisis. We have covered this extensively on women's hour, particularly looking at the plight of women and girls. But how do you see it now?

I understand you're still a family there? Yes, yeah. So the war in Sudan, which I describe as a counter-revolutionary war, rather than a civil war, has been probably the most devastating thing to, you know, as Sudanese people that we've experienced for some time, especially as it came off the back of this brilliant, exciting people's revolution, a non-violent revolution.

With women at the forefront. With women at the forefront. Exactly. That overthrew a dictator of 30 years. I had a lot of my family were in Khartoum when the fighting broke out. Quite a few of them have now left. I still have, you know, family in Khartoum at the moment, an aunt who I was just who was just on the phone with very this week and who despite her being in the middle of a war

zone is still telling me what's what about life. So, you know, there is something. Life is there. Life is there. But what I will say is that it is, and I'm glad, you know, that women's almsman's covering it because the cost of this conflict on women and girls in particular has been beyond comprehensible. And even when we kind of look at where peace will come from, where a just peace will come from, something that I and many other activists push for is for women to remain

part of the negotiating committee's governance, etc. We will continue covering it. I want to thank Yasmin Abdel-Majid. Her novel is at sea. I need to read this comment that just came in. Well done, your guest for writing a novel. on a rig. I'm in two book clubs of oil workers and wives. And nobody understands this world. And yet we are all reliant on it. We will all be reading it. Oh, brilliant. Great news. And then let me know what you think because I'm so excited. For me, I really also want people who are from this world to be reading it. To give some feedback. Yes. Me, I'm sure they will if I know Women's Hour listeners. I will see you again tomorrow right here 10 a.m. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again

next time. I'm Gemma Ganda and for BBC Radio 4 and Shadow World, this is stolen years. More than two decades ago, Andrew Malkinson was found guilty of a crime he didn't commit. There's a massive hole in your life and it's been filled in with suffering. Now in 2026 another man has faced a jury of his peers. On trial for the very same crime Andrew spent years of his life imprisoned for. I'm 55. I was 37 when I went in. It's damaging. Driven by Andy's passion to see the system held to account.

We follow him as he tries to build back a life. And we discover how Paul Quinn came to finally be convicted. Subscribe to Shadow World, Stolen Years on BBC Sounds. She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself.

From the world of Jane Austen's pride and prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama. Mary, you will flourish. Based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart

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consideration.