Woman's Hour - Claudia Winkelman, Kate Bingham, Baroness Kidron, Helen Whately

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

Strictly Come Dancing’s Claudia Winkelman in conversation with Emma Barnett about the domestic tasks that need to done a certain way in the home; starting with how to hang a toilet roll.Health Minister Helen Whately is questioned about the historic strike by members of the Royal College of Nursing.Dame Kate Bingham the woman who led the UK’s Vaccine Taskforce talks about her concerns regarding our readiness to tackle the next pandemic. She says the UK’s going 'backwards' in this area and is 'baffled' by the decisions to 'dismantle' many of the capabilities she helped set up.And Baroness Beeban Kidron, the founder of the 5Rights Foundation which campaigns to make the digital world safer for children and young people brings us the latest on the online harms bill.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to the programme. In fact, on a personal note, my last programme for a while, as from today, I'm going off on maternity leave and hope to have a different job come January, all being well. But with that in mind and the fact I will be spending more time in the domestic sphere, shall we say, not my natural habitat, we have an essential conversation today coming up between myself

and Claudia Winkleman, as it only very recently came to my attention that the way you put the loo roll on the holder, if you have one, is a thing. I had no idea. I just bung it on. I don't care if the paper goes over or under. Please tell me I am not alone. But it seems it's a whole thing. There are articles dedicated to this. There are conversations that have been had I've never known about. Claudia very much believes

the paper goes over. And we then in our chat coming up later in the programme, move on to the other irksome things you spot in your home or in other people's homes. And yes, I still cannot get over that my very best friend has been turning my loo roll around for years in my house if she deems it on the wrong way without telling me. So if you would be so kind ahead of our break from one another to tell me what gets your goat on the home front. Claudia does in a startling admission say that she doesn doesn't bin tea bags straight away. She puts them in the sink. I couldn't live with that. Not the bin.

Or anything that gets your goat in other people's homes. Perhaps you go around, I don't know, correcting frames on the wall if they're a bit wonky. I would be grateful. Do get in touch. Your messages will be the perfect maternity leave gift, as it were. The number is 84844 to text me

about this extremely important range of topics on the domestic front. Text will be charged to your standard message rate on social media at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply,

so check out the Wi-Fi options. I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say or not, depending on where you come out on these things. But onto today's agenda first, because right at the top of it is a historic action by a group made up of mostly women. I am talking about the nurses strike. 90% of the nurse workforce is female. And today, the biggest nursing strike ever to happen in this country began at 8 o'clock this morning, led by the Royal College of Nursing, the RCN as it's referred to for short,

which has never coordinated such action before in its 106-year history. Talks with the government earlier this week dramatically collapsed between Pat Cullen, the RCN leader, and the Health Secretary, Steve Barkley. Coming on to our programme earlier this week, she accused him of bully boy tactics. He has said that the government will not meet the nurses' pay demands as money would have to be taken from the front line of the NHS. Nurses are demanding a 19% wage hike or inflation plus 5% put another way, arguing it is deserved after below inflation increases since 2019, amounting to a cut in real terms for some staff.

The government argues this proposed salary hike is unaffordable and wants nurses to make do with what was offered to them under the independent pay review, but is willing to talk about conditions. At this point, I just want to stress not every hospital in the country is affected. Do still attend appointments if you haven't heard any differently. That's the advice. And remember, no strikes are happening in Scotland as nurses vote on the latest pay offer. Joining me now is the Health Minister, Helen Waitley.

Helen, I'm going to start with a question which I think is top of mind for some this morning. As a health minister in a Conservative government that we have had now for 12 years, how ashamed are you that nurses feel they have to strike? Well, I'm really sorry and I'm really disappointed that nurses are striking today. I'm actually really grateful to the majority of nurses and the majority of healthcare staff who are still working today. And I think that's a really important point to make is that most NHS staff are still at work. And in most NHS organisations, there isn't a strike. It's in a minority of organisations. It's around 44 where there is a mandate to strike.

And it's just a proportion of the workforce there specifically clearly nurses and many are still working in order to keep essential services going and the very important point for your listeners is if anyone's got an appointment to still yeah i did just say that as well with respect i did just make that point myself and when you talk about 44 that's only in england but yes you're right to point that out. But we are talking about the first nurses strike of this kind, the biggest. It's happened on your watch, the Conservatives. There's no other government to look for. There's no other party to look for.

How could you let it get to this point where nurses, enough nurses, feel that it is safer for patients in the long run to go on strike than go to work. I'm really disappointed at their decision to strike. I think a backdrop to this, of course, if you take the national position and look where we are, is we know that we have got a high level of inflation. Why have we got that? Well, firstly, it's all going off coming out of the pandemic as we saw demand exceed supply. And then, as you'll know, but let's give the context it's important, the war in Ukraine, which has driven up energy prices, which has driven up costs, which has led into that inflation. So that's why we have the big challenge for us as a country and for the economy of inflation.

And the government knows we have to keep inflation under control. Sorry, the nurses have been asked. Sorry, if you're going to talk about context and you're going to go back and you're going to bring the war in Ukraine into it, the nurses have been asking about pay since the beginning of this year, before Russia invaded Ukraine. It's this government's decision, and inaction you could argue, that has led to a situation where there's been no meeting of minds about pay this year. Yeah, but the vote to strike specifically.

So yes, the nurses' position goes back a long time, earlier in the year, but they've much more recently voted specifically to strike. What did you think was going to happen? If you don't engage with people, what do you think is going to happen? These people, these nurses that you clapped for, that stood on the steps, all these ministers, who had to work through the pandemic,

what do you think they were going to go and do? Just make a cup of tea and say, okay, then, well, they won't pay us anymore. I mean, you keep interrupting me, which is making it really hard to answer your question, but I would do my best. No, but you brought the war in Ukraine. Sorry, it was you, Minister, that brought the war in Ukraine into a question about how you could have let it over 12 years get to this point. And I'm'm making the point it's a much bigger longer crisis. So I was given the context to where we are now where recently nurses have voted specifically to strike on a pay dispute and as you say they haven't been striking before. Yes the process for arriving at pay goes back several months and you'll know I'm sure your

listeners will know because it's been talked about that the way it's worked out is with the independent pay review body that the Royal College of Nurses and Unions have an input into that process so they're listened to in that process but that process tries to take the politics out of pay and it tries to make it a fair pay settlement and it looks at for instance it looks at inflation it looks at private sector pay rates and the change to private sector pay which in the period is approximately four to six percent increase it looks at what people in the workforce with similar levels of qualifications are being paid in other sectors it looks at things like

recruitment and retention it takes a picture in the round and then comes up with a recommendation on pay. For nurses, that was on average around 4% to 5%, with those on the lower band getting up to 9%, so those with the lowest pay getting a higher pay rise. That is the fair proposal which the independent pay review body came to. As I said, taking on board the input

from the Royal College of Nursing, the government has supported putting in place that recommendation. I heard your answer there, but I do also have to be able to come back at different points while you're making several. What if the independent pay body, no one's doubting the independence on this programme, what if it's wrong or out of date? The gentleman who used to run it this morning told my colleagues on the today program we're living in extraordinary circumstances and ministers could having had that report filed in february since when you will know inflation has changed dramatically he could you could ministers and steve barkley could invite that independent pay body to look at it again but ministers have not will you

well the independent pay review body is already looking at pay for next year so what we're talking to look at it again. But ministers have not, will you? Well, the Independent Pay Review Body is already looking at pay for next year. So what we're talking about is pay for this year, actually. And those pay rises have already gone into nurses' pay. So this is about this year. The inflation that we've got right now will be played into the... But they can't wait.

...polls on recommendations... They're on strike now. And they're going to go on strike next Tuesday. What are you doing in advance of that? You can't just say, yeah, yeah, this independent body is going to look at it next year. Are ministers going to ask the independent pay body to look at it now?

So the independent pay body has given their recommendation. It's out of date. Well, really not, because it applies to this last year. It can't. It was published in February. People can go and read it. The inflation rates have changed. So that's why the inflation for this year gets looked into pay for next year, as is the case for most people's pay.

OK, so it sounds like sorry to move to move on i just want to be real so of course the health secretary's door is completely open and we've heard from nurses i spoke to many nurses and and their unhappiness is not just about pay we know that working conditions that hours that making sure that you've got a full number of staff on the ship these things are really important that's one reason for instance why we're increasing the number of nurses in the nhs we've got over 30 000 more nurses over 30 000 more nurses working in the nhs than in 2009 you've still got nearly fit you've still got sorry on that i have to come in you still nearly got 50 000 vacancies so there yes of course there are still vacancies, but we are addressing that problem by recruiting more people.

You can't boast about having more people with nearly 50,000 vacancies. I can see on my screen you're laughing at this. I'm not laughing. I'm not laughing at that. I'm laughing at the lunacy of potentially boasting about more nurses. When you're right, it's not just about pay people are talking to us we've heard from nurses this week many of them listen to woman's hour i'm laughing at the idea that you think that's a defense when there are nearly 50 000 vacancies i really care about the conditions for nurses working i spoke to so many nurses i'm not doubting that and before and almost almost every conversation i've had with nurses when I've said how are things

for you how is life going what's your work like um how happy or unhappy are you every single one of those conversations I can recall has been primarily about well I wish there were more of us on the job I wish we didn't have to rely on so many and to that point Helen I know I know you care about this you were the minister for patient safety you've worked in health for a long time it's something you're deeply connected to. At one point, I believe you were tipped as a future health secretary. Maybe that'll still be the case. I'm not doubting that you care. What I'm trying to understand is what do you think attracts somebody to a job? Why there are nearly 50,000 vacancies will be that they can get a higher

salary, some of these individuals, in supermarkets. So pay may not be the only thing that you're hearing about, but it is a cornerstone of people's ability to live, and as the Conservatives talk about, get on in life. Well, that's one reason why we've actually increased the starting pay for nurses and brought that up over the years. And as I mentioned a moment ago, made sure that those who are on the lowest paid bands in the NHS are getting up to a 9% pay increase. We want people to be well paid. We want people to be able to afford to pay the bills. But of course, you have to make sure, as the Independent Pay Review Body does, that you have to look more broadly at all the levels of pay. And as government, you have to take a step back and remember

that we want to make sure that our public services are affordable i really really want us to be able to continue to increase the number of nurses in the nhs to have more doctors to have more other healthcare professionals like more mental health professionals more staff overall we've got to be able to pay for that so we have to look at the picture in the round. I don't want our citizens to have to cut any services in order to be able to afford the pay. Can I present to you something else from the government? The government commissioned a report out this week by the King's Fund, which said, this is a government commissioned report, that the NHS is paying the price of a decade of neglect and underinvestment by successive Conservative governments. This is a government commissioned report. I'm sure you will have seen it.

Quote, a dearth of long term investment. I mentioned 47,000 vacancies in nursing alone. There is no one left to blame but the Conservative government for the conditions that you describe, never mind the pay. So I don't accept that we have not been investing in the NHS. We're putting record amounts of money into the NHS. We continue to fund the NHS when other areas of the public sector have been squeezed. I mean, specifically on nurses, last year, there was a wider public sector pay freeze, but 3% more funding went into the NHS. In the autumn statement... So you don't accept this independent report? You don't accept it?

The NHS and social care got more money while other areas of the public service are facing a really tough time. So actually, we are continuing to fund the NHS. As a health minister, this report was ordered by the Department of Health and Social Care. You're the minister for social care. You don't accept the findings of it. Well, actually, on social care, something that has been recognised

is that we need to put more money into social care. That's why in the autumn statement, social care is getting an extra £7.5 billion over the next two years, which is particularly to increase the amount of social care that we're giving, partly because we know we've got people in hospital who will be better off at home, and we can

do that better by having more social care. But you don't accept the other part about the NHS, a dearth of investment by the Conservatives and the only... I don't accept that. I don't accept that at all. No, we have been steadily investing in the NHS, a dearth of investment by the Conservatives and the only... I don't accept that. I don't accept that at all. We have been steadily investing in the NHS. We've increased the number of doctors in training,

25% more medical school places. Why are 7 million on our waiting list? Well, we know that the pandemic has had a big hit on the NHS. Not just the pandemic. This report says it exacerbated it. This report said it exacerbated it, but it is not just the pandemic. Ministers constantly are blaming come in to be diagnosed and treatments couldn't happen. That's why we're working so hard to get those backlogs down with the NHS. That's why they're even more frustrating. And I just say to a message? They are. They are. They are on strike now, the ones that can be. So I'll tell you what.

I'll tell you what. I've got an idea. I've got an idea. Let's hear from a nurse. There's a message here to you. I am a nurse. The government right now through you, Helen, is portraying pay completely incorrectly.

Morale is the lowest I have ever known it. We're doing the job of multiple nurses. It is dangerous. And most people I know are looking for jobs elsewhere. I love being a nurse, but I will not work like this anymore. What are you doing between now and next Tuesday to stop this individual, if they are able to or if they want to, going on strike? The Secretary of State, his door is open for the RCN

to come and speak to him and speak to him about some of the things that are affecting morale. They went. Morale is indeed low. It's been low for too many years. I know from the conversations because I've heard what you've read out just then. What does that mean the door is open? I actually heard that a few years ago. I heard the same

thing. Helen, I can hear that. You've had these conversations. Helen, sorry, I just again have to pick you up. I know you've had those conversations. And with respect, you've said that and you've said how much they mean to you and that you remember them. That is important. I've heard that. But just saying the health secretary's door is open. And I should say we've invited him on this programme every day this week. We're grateful you're here. Thank you for your time. It's an important day to talk to you. But you say his door is open. And yet Pat Cullen said to me on this programme 48 hours ago that when she went for a meeting with him,

not only did he keep her waiting, she talked about his belligerence. And she actually said that bully boy tactics were deployed by the health secretary and his manner in that way in dealing with her as the leader of a majority female workforce. So the door was open, she went into it and that's what she found. Does your health secretary have a woman problem? No, not at all. I mean, I know Pat, I've spoken to Pat and I was really surprised to hear her use some of that language clearly that's not my experience at all of working with the health secretary I know how much he respects nurses I know how much he cares about the NHS workforce nurses and many others and I know actually how determined he is to try

and make sure that we give people the care they need we bring down some of the backlogs that people are waiting for care but we make sure sure that people can get ambulances, get into hospital if they need to be in hospital and discharged if they shouldn't be in hospital. I know how much he cares about all of these things and the workforce that we need to do that. And I do know that his door is open. He's ready and willing to talk. And I do hope that Pat will return to him and have a conversation with him.

So it's Pat's fault now. It's the nursing side fault. They've got to go in. No, no, sorry, but to what you've just said, I've asked, I think twice now, I'll ask a third time, between now and next Tuesday to avoid a larger nursing strike, your response isn't to call the independent pay review body again. It doesn't seem to be around anything else that I could sort of glean. I've tried to write it down what you've said. It is to know that the health secretary's door is open and for Pat Cullen to walk back through it.

That's the only thing that's going to happen between now and next Tuesday. Even when we heard the prime minister say yesterday that there are of this strike today, that there are millions of people across this country who will have their health care disrupted because of the strike. That's it. The door is open. That's the only action. I just want to pick up one. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm not blaming anyone for this. I don't think that's a helpful way to go about this. And I felt you tried to do that with what I said. So one thing that has been happening over the last few days and weeks and will continue to happen is all the conversations about making sure that as much service as possible continues to go on in the nhs as many patients have seen and looked after as can possibly be so we've had these conversations with the rcn the

nhs had conversations the rcn about things called derogations with the services that will still be continued uh the care that will be still carried out in the trust that there are strikes. And as I said, that's about 40% of the time. So the management of the strikes? And the legal conversations will, of course, I'm sure, continue about making sure that as much as possible happens. Yes. But my answer to your first question is not going to change. It's the same as it was the

first time you asked me, because it's the same question, which is, of course, the Secretary of State's door is open for conversation. But is he going to do anything differently because he won't talk about pay? Will he talk about pay? He's asking me the same question. So is the answer no? I'm going to give you the same answer, which is absolutely, his door is open for conversation. And I would encourage all those involved to have conversations. Well, we would always welcome him on Woman's Hour

for another conversation. We really are grateful you came on to have a conversation this morning. You have talked about how much you care about the health service, about social care, which is your remit at the moment. And I know previously, as I say, you were Minister for Patient Safety.

Thank you very much, Helen Waitley, for your time this morning. Health Minister there, talking about that historic nurses' strike. The door is open. That's the response about what may happen between now and next Tuesday ahead of another nurses' strike, which is slated to still be happening. I have to say, your domestic gripes are also coming in.

Many messages about the strike. I'll try and come to those as well. But I did promise you a bit of an insight into the domestic because after today I am going to be spending a bit more time at home for the next few months at least because I'm going on maternity leave. And just before I go, I had learned this startling thing that apparently loo rolls are meant to go on the holder. If they go on the holder, sorry, they're meant to go with the paper going over.

I had no idea. And a message saying, of course, absolutely. Loo roll has to be over. And if it is an open loo roll holder, it has to be on the wall in such a way that when you pull the loo sheets off towards you, the roll doesn't fall off with it. Diana, thank you for that. Irksome things in other people's homes, dusty bathrooms. I once, when staying with family friends, asked to have a bath on the pretext for cleaning the bathroom. You did not. I justified the lengthy time I was in there by having a deliberately splashy bath that needed a lot of cleaning up. And yes, toilet paper over,

not under. That's just amazing. Thank you for that message. Well, to try and put the domestic world to rights, or some of it certainly, I caught up with Strictly Come Dancing's Claudia Winkleman, who better to talk about the red lines of domestic life just before going on air. Claudia, it is a delight to talk to you today on my last show for a while before I go on maternity leave. And the thinking of this is that I'm going to be heading into the domestic sphere for a while and going to be looking at things in the house, a bit like we all did in lockdown, a lot more. And one of the things I only recently discovered, and I know you've got a strong view on this, is apparently you think about, or lots of people, not me, think about which way they put the loo roll on the holder. And I have never known

that this is a thing, but apparently it's a thing. And you're the best person in the whole of Britain to tell us about this. I'm absolutely not, but buckle up and I hope you've got an A Tower show today because I have, number one, it's your last show. I speak for everybody when we wish you so much luck. I would have come on here to discuss anything. Not anything important, obviously, because I've got nothing to add. But on this, I was like, yes. Okay. So the toilet roll, this is not casual. This is not, if you ask, I love the fact that you think, I don't know, it just goes on. No. It does. You're in a rush. Get it on.

No. Well, you're in a rush, but like define rush. There is always time to make sure that it goes over. It doesn't go under. But but but why? I mean, and this is the thing I actually know I'm wrong now, which is a good place to start this conversation. I'm happy to admit, apparently some people call it the beard versus the mullet there's different ways of describing this oh I was not aware of this and can we start a whatsapp chat with those people yeah I know um and even the the person behind the patent for the original loo roll and how it was meant to be hung the diagrams show you're right but but what's the harm having it the other way because Because I have had it like that for years, I think. There isn't, well, the idea that you even say, I think Emma makes me petrified. Well, it's not that it's wrong the other way. It's just so right the other way, because it's

hanging, it's welcoming. What it's saying is good morning or good afternoon. Here I am, and I can be incredibly useful. Under is a little bit scratchy. You just pull it out, don't you? By the way, do you know what? I could argue with the same vehemence either way. Oh. Is that because of impartiality rules at the BBC?

There you go. You know how it is. No, but, like, as I said it, I suddenly went, do you know what? Under might be quite cosy. I might try that. It might But like, as I said it, I suddenly went, you know, under might be quite cozy. I might try that. It might stroke the wall as it comes out. It's all snuggled in. It's more hide and seek rather than da-da. Yes. But what's also a thing about this is when I briefly spoke to you about coming on to talk about this and you've been very game and here you are is that you did mention you you couldn't be in a relationship with someone or live with people who didn't understand this and I've obviously survived so far in my relationship but this is

a big bugbear they've got studies about it that it's on lists of therapists relationship therapists that you have to be on the same page about this um I know I you know what if you if he suddenly went under as it were I can stick with him it's been 24 years you know I just sort of feel like but there are other things there are sort of alarm bells I don't think I could sleep with somebody who had a system for loading the dishwasher oh that's a whole other area. If we're going broader now on the domestic, go on. And suddenly, well, I'm opening it out. But if you, if I don't know if I could be with somebody who said quite seriously,

you know that's not where the colander goes, love. But that is a thing. People have to have battles quite regularly on this. By the way, lots of my friends love the fact that their partners do have a system they go you go you load yeah forks that way I'm like chuck it all in hope for the best so yes domestic world people do feel very strongly about some things they do and I think in the fridge do you keep your mustard in the fridge yes of course of course, once it's open.

OK, well, then you and I could live together. That's fine. Well, good. I'm happy. I'm looking forward to that commune when we're older. We just won't have loo roll holders. They'll be on the side. But my best friend, and I'm going to outrun this, has now admitted that, and we did used to live together, that every time she comes to my house, if I have put the loo roll on the wrong way, she changes it in the loo that she goes to surreptitiously. And apparently that's a thing. People just correcting stuff in your house.

I love the fact, and also she might not even need to use the bathroom. She'll be like, I'm just going to pop in here and I'm just, leave it with me. I'll do an edit. By the way, she's your best friend and we love her, so we can't say anything, but what? I know, because, and then ask a few other people, not least some of the fine women I work with, what else they correct in people's homes.

I don't know if you correct anything. Wonky pictures. Oh, yeah, no. Just moving a frame. All right with that. With this fringe in my eyesight, I wouldn't even know if something was wonky. I'm being honest.

Would you go near the sink area if you didn't like what was going on there, the way things were arranged? The sink, around the sink? Yeah. It would wash up. Right. Around the sink. No, I'm not a rearranger.

But I have, I mean, look, at university we lived, I mean, it was disgusting. Oh, my gosh, it was so disgusting. I can't even think about it. It was so. And by the way, when I sort of want to have a go at like my 16 year old or my 19 year old now I'm like really guys cereal in bed my husband has to remind me how we lived when we first met or like when I was at university where it was just sort of filthy so I'd like to I'd go in and have a wash up but I'm not interested in rearranging. And I would also be, a friend of mine dated somebody. Is this bad?

I can't believe this is even on the radio. It doesn't matter. You don't just pretend. And my favourite is she stayed over with Charming Man. Funny, lovely. Didn't wear a fisherman's sweater So wasn't wasn't totally perfect. Wasn't your perfect? My perfect. Well, the perfect. Anyway, but and then when she had a shower, he went, oh, yeah, use anything you want.

But if you when you leave labels out, please labels out. What? Labels out in the shower so that you could see the shampoo or the, I don't know. Yeah, she ran. Ran for her life. I think what I love about me discovering that there is this protocol that I did not know about loo roll is that I'm 37 and I thought I was quite well read. And I thought I knew a few things and I am still learning how wrong I can be quite regularly or out of step with the majority. I'm 50 and I learn all the time. That's the best thing, right? Just going, oh, I had no idea. By the way, another thing, I'm just flagging this up while we're here, milk in your cup or hot water. Where we go first with tea? Yeah. Obviously, it's milk at the end.

Thank you. Thank you. Obviously. Thank you. The commune is back on. I have a tea timer on my oven. I brew for four minutes, take out the tea bag. I go four now because I don't drink coffee.

I need it strong. Then I add the milk. But then where do you put the tea bag? Because that's a whole other thing. Do you go in a caddy? Do you go straight in the bin? Do you put it? I mean, some friends put it on the side next to them.

Just make it. One of my best friends puts it on the side, but in a ramekin, which I respect. Yeah, I love a bit of a ramekin. Because sometimes a little reuse. Oh, you don't reuse, do you? No, I don't. I put it in. But remember, I'm going back to university here where everything was reused.

I mean, I mean, everything you can use if you're not a strong brewer or if you're using it to make old maps, you know, use the teabag or fake tan. Because I've done that. Claudia Winkleman, of course, I have to come back to. No, you've not. You've used a teabag on your face. Of course I have. And B listen needs must needs must you know this so um all I was gonna say is yeah I put I put a tea bag in the sink and that drives my husband mad oh not in the sink that's horrific okay well he says that I'm I agree with him I agree with him I love the fact that we've got to teaabagging. So the final sort of thought around this is the domestic. We've gone back. The domestic, people editing.

We don't seem to be doing that, either of us, but people coming around to your house and doing things. I know on your lovely and wonderful Radio 2 programme that you do at the weekends that this is the stuff of life for you, isn't it? Oh, my goodness. It's my favourite thing. I mean, there'll be people listening to this thinking, could it be any more trivial? And yet they will have a view on each bit of it. Yeah. And also the extra trivial is perfect. We have a thing on the show, it's called News at 10, where people phone up and it's really lovely. And it could be, oh, I've just got engaged and that's divine. And I love all that. and I love all that and I love new babies

and I love people going to pick up puppies and everything else. But my other favourite is a woman who had changed her marmalade from a fine cut to a coarse cut. We got 7,000 messages because I was like, because coarse cut I find could just be a bit of a shock. It's sort of chaotic, isn't it? I don't eat marmalade, so this is lost on me, but I'm going with you. Go on. Coarse bit of a shock. It's sort of chaotic, isn't it? I don't eat marmalade, so this is lost on me, but I'm going with you.

Go on. I don't have a loss of marmalade, but it's that kind of thing. Do you know what? I've always, always had X on my toast, let's say jam, or I always have marmalade. And they suddenly go, but I've tried lemon curd.

And I hold on to some in it, and we all go, buckle up. Continue. Is it too sweet? Anyway, she ended up making her own lemon curd and is now selling this delicious lemon curd. So it's all the small. It's go small.

The same best friend I mentioned who corrects and edits my loo rolls also loves lemon curd in the morning on her toast. And when we lived together, I used to do it for her because she wouldn't make any breakfast otherwise. And I found it absolutely hideous. I'm also a Marmite woman, not a fan of the squeezy, like the original jar. Of course not squeezy.

That's not even a conversation. Oh, by the way, there's subsections. Extra hot. Guys, you've got the magic. Oh, yes. They've done chilly ones or they've done all of these things. Stick in your lane because it's the most beautiful lane. You're the you're the chancelise you don't need to do anything else the last time I feel I entered a debate like this again not knowing what I was getting in for and

I'll leave you with this Claudia and you'll tell me where you are on this was when I was talking to Susanna Constantine uh she of Trinny and Susanna fame of course and an author about knickers under pajamas at night and I said of course you about knickers under pyjamas at night. And I said, of course you wear knickers under your pyjamas. I said to the style guru, of course you sleep with, you need a cotton gusset through the evening. Of course you do. I thought the women of Britain would be on the same page. I did happen to mention it on this very, you know,

little programme called Woman's Hour. What a response we got to the fact that I seemingly was wrong. Where are you on this? Can I come round and talk to your children? When this little puppy comes out, I am going to book an appointment and sit them down and go, your mum's amazing. She's clever, she's funny, she's brilliant. Oh, carry on.

She's so charming. But there are a couple of things I'm just going to quietly mention. No, no pants under pyjamas on any level. Right. The domestic is sorted for the maternity leave. Claudia Winkleman. Thank you. Good luck, darling. Good luck. I'm going to need her. She's completely wrong. I get to have the last word, you see, because we pre-recorded that just before coming on air. And yeah, she's wrong about so many things there. The paper must come over the top. I cannot tell you how many messages we have, says Ali.

When I trained as a florist, I was taught if the ribbon comes from the bottom as you pull it, you're pulling the weight of the ribbon against the wall where it's hung. From the top, you pull the weight away from the wall. Same with Lurol. I change friends' toilet paper all the time. Imogen says, there's no debate. The patent was clear. Imogen, on this you are right.

I've looked at the patent. The documents are online. Is this a hill I'm prepared to die on? Possibly, quite possibly. And just about what you do in other people's homes, I'm obsessed with this. I've been caught out several times rearranging pillows on other people's beds. I can't understand why some people leave them laid flat once they've made the bed. Surely the correct way is to stand them up on the long edge, leaning on the headboard, If they have one, way more pleasing to the eye at least. Others obviously disagree, says Sandra. Sandra, do you just go in people's bedrooms and they don't know?

And then you do that. Fantastic. This is a whole window. Let's talk for a different window, different perspective. Sort of going back to some of what we've been talking about this morning. My next guest is Dame Kate Bingham, who you'll know the name of, I'm sure, in many ways, because she ran the UK Vaccines Taskforce from May to December in 2020, a critical period. She was in charge of procuring enough COVID vaccines to start immunising the British population. We became the first country in the world to start a vaccination rollout just over two years ago, when that first jab went in the arm of a 90-year-old woman called Margaret Keenan. Kate Bingham has been back in the headlines

recently, following claims of the former health secretary. We were talking about one health secretary a minute ago, Steve Barkley, but Matt Hancock, who's published his diaries, this idea that she only wanted to vaccinate the vulnerable and tried to block vaccines coming from India, to which she refutes. We will come to that in just a moment and also on how prepared she thinks we are for another pandemic, again she's made headlines recently but dame kate bingham first of all good morning good morning and i enjoyed this last um session with claudia i have to say i am a tea bag reuser so i like very weak tea and we'll use the same tea bag all day i didn't know also what you're going to say there but there's a lot there's a lot going on today and i'm very happy to be to have your voice your experience in the mix and I know we're going to get to government preparedness for another

pandemic not something people want to think about necessarily but we do need to be prepared but just from what you've heard and your experience of working with the health system with civil servants with politicians do you have faith in in what you in the systems you've seen and in this government that the nurses strike and any future ones can be resolved well i think pay is something that is uh uh beyond my pay grade i mean it really is that is a political position and it's not something i get involved in i'm much more focused on skills and whether or not we have the right government and system to actually understand the scope of what we can be doing to turn the UK into a high growth economic superpower. And that's the bit that I've spent more time thinking about. And if I can, I'll come to that. But let me ask it a slightly different

way as well, just because you had such a unique experience working with the government during the pandemic. As someone working at the heart of vaccine, albeit on the vaccine procurement side, do you think that that was it, that the pandemic sort of tipped some healthcare workers over the edge? Because we've never had these strikes before from nurses on this level. I mean, clearly, the whole healthcare system was stretched beyond imagination in terms and just very scary environments in which to work. So I'm deeply sympathetic to the challenges that we face now and the working environment. I mean, we've got huge waiting lists. We're missing all sorts of diagnoses to treat people. And I recognize this is a very difficult position.

So how it gets resolved, that is for the politicians, but I certainly understand how challenging it's been for so many people up and down the country in all jobs relating to healthcare. And those politicians, I mean, Steve Barclay's been accused of bully boy tactics by the leader of the Royal College of Nursing and I did mention that a previous health secretary had a few things to say about you and some quite serious allegations in Matt Hancock's diaries. And it sounds like there's perhaps no love lost between you.

But what did you want to say? What have you said about what he's written in this book? Well, let me just address Steve Barclay first. He was on my investment committee for vaccines, and I have to say pragmatic, sensible, thoughtful, read the papers, asked good questions. So I didn't see any of that. And I found him a very effective colleague with him to work. On Matt, he's made various suggestions, one of which was that he told us that we needed more than three vaccines as part of the UK vaccine portfolio, which is somewhat at odds with the papers and the reports and all the materials that we were sharing at the time. So I don't know if these diaries that he wrote were actually contemporaneous or whether maybe he wrote them in hindsight and got some of the dates wrong. And the idea of you only wanting to vaccinate the vulnerable and blocking vaccines from India?

Vaccinate the vulnerable was which were basically groups one through nine, was government policy. So my job was not to be inventing government policy or to be designing who should be vaccinated. My job was to follow government policy and government policy during 2020 and into early 21 was to vaccinate the vulnerable. And that's the course that I followed. I don't know why Matt thinks that that contradicted government policy. But, you know, he's written this book and I suppose at the heart of what I'm driving at is whether we can trust what we read, what we hear from those who are in charge, you know, and are making these decisions. It seems like you're borrowing a line from the palace that recollections may vary. Well, my book, which was published in October, is an extremely clear, straight-talking summary of what happened from within the vaccine task force. What happened outside that, obviously other people can have views, but certainly within the vaccine task force, what I've written is

accurate. And your concern now is perhaps that, what, lessons haven't been learned, should we, when we face another pandemic in terms of preparedness? What's your take on that? Because I know you gave evidence. Yes. I mean, I think we have a much higher chance face another pandemic in terms of preparedness? What's your take on that? Because I know you gave evidence. Yes. I mean, I think we have a much higher chance of another pandemic than being invaded. And in the UK, we have detailed capabilities in defence to be thinking about, you know, future wars, who are the bad actors, what we need to do to prepare, working with industry for the latest, I don't know, drone technology. We do not have that same level of preparedness for pandemics,

as far as I can see. So one of the things we recommended when I left at the end of 2020 was that a pandemic advisor should be put in place with the right background, relationships to industry, and actually understands, you know, manufacturing, clinical development, regulatory scale up and so on, so that we can do that. Landscaping, looking for new technologies, identifying where the new potential pandemic viruses may come from. And that has not been put in place. And so why not, do you think?

Because I just think it's gone back to business as usual. And while there was the spotlight on the actual COVID-19 pandemic, the government was willing to change the way in which they brought people in and brought the right sort of skills into government. But that doesn't seem to be the case now. So the VTF rightly has been disbanded because you don't need to have this continued external body. But it's been split across different departments and there is no clear leader. So now vaccine companies and new technologies and innovative companies, it's not at all clear who they go to or how they actually engage with government at all.

And if you think about it, our vaccines have been superb at dealing with severe disease and death, but they have not been good at reducing transmission, reducing the cost of deployment, dealing with multiple different vaccines, so RSV, flu and so on at the same time. So there's lots of things we could be doing better. And I don't know how that's going to be done.

I mean, I've got a laundry list of things that I think should not have happened. Yes. I mean, it's worrying, though, to hear you from this perspective speak. Well, it's important to speak candidly. It's worrying to hear what you're saying. I think it's deeply worrying. And this is from a government that, you know, starts off by saying, you know, the life science sector is a huge growth sector for the UK where it's a sector in which UK performs internationally really strongly which I completely agree with and yet the first thing they do is chop the R&D tax credits for example to small and medium-sized biotech and enterprises and do so with sort of no notice whatsoever,

because they can't differentiate between rent takers and genuinely deserving SMEs. And that, again, tells you about the understanding of our industry and the understanding of entrepreneurial activity within the government. And I just think that's poor. I'm hearing this all over about the lack of understanding of what it is that we are doing and it's not just in life sciences it goes beyond that into other sectors and I just think we're missing a massive massive trick. Well Dame Kate Bingham thank you for for coming on to talk across a range of issues there but I

suppose the heart of it is is how our systems work and the bits of it that you have seen and what you're hearing at the moment. Also, of course, it's important to hear that you reuse your tea bags as well at this point. I think I remember the last time we spoke at the end, we talked a little bit about your penchant for bog snorkeling, but I don't think I've got time for that today. So I'll leave you to the rest of your day and what you're up to. Dame Kate Bingham, thank you very much. Just going back to the healthcare and the fact we're on this historic day, eight o'clock this morning, the largest ever nurse strike in this country started. Another one is slated for next week. You've heard from a health minister who said, between now and then, the door is open of the health secretary.

A message here. I've been a nurse for 40 years. Nurses' salaries are entirely fair, in my opinion. The RCN does not represent me. The skill mix on wards has been wrong for 20 years. The NHS in 2022 is not and cannot be the NHS of 1950. The population's increased. In terms of demands as well as numbers, the population needs to understand they have a responsibility to use the service

in a reasonable way and be prepared to pay for it but another one i am a nurse having worked for 35 years i've been driving listening to women's art and i've had to pull over in tears the mp on the radio has devastated me with her attitude never have i wept listening to someone talk about my circumstances and job how dare she be so disrespectful, says Jane, who's pulled over somewhere in Exeter. I hope you're OK. Thank you very much for messaging. And it's good, of course, that you pulled over

talking about such emotion. Talking of emotion, last week, I spoke to the actor Kate Winslet about social media and young people. She came right off the fence and said, in agreement with the Children's Commissioner for England, children should not be given smartphones. And my gosh, you reacted.

It's clear keeping your children safe online is a huge concern and a nightmare for many of you. My next guest hopes to help. I'm joined in the studio by Baroness Beban Kidron, a filmmaker turned lawmaker. Impressive credits to her name, just to name one, Bridget Jones, you'll know at the edge of reason.

But it was actually her documentary called In Real Life that encouraged her to change career and dedicate her working life to protecting the rights of children online. She spent hours with young people to gain insight into how the Internet influences their lives. She's been a member of the House of Lords since 2012, pushed through the world's first age appropriate design code into UK law and the founder now of Five Rights Foundation which is dedicated to creating a digital world that does remember there are young people and children in it. Baroness Kidron good morning. Good morning. It's quite the career path and I know you've got a lot of experiences along the way but that particular interview last week has really struck a chord because people are unsure what to do. What would you say, first of all, to anyone listening, sort of grappling with this? I think it's really hard to have responsibility for something you don't really have power over. And that's sort of been

a bit of a theme of your show today. But I think what I would say to parents is don't think about individual companies or apps. Think about features. Think about whether it live streams. Think about whether you can direct message by an adult. Think about how your child is using it. Think about the notifications. Does it go on through the night? Think about those things and make rules around those things

rather than actually around a specific app. Yes. I also think, and I really do want to say this at the outset, you can't parent blame. Technology that is front and center of young people's lives, that is inadequately regulated, is unsafe for use. And it's a bit like saying to a parent, OK, put your car at the wheel, the driving wheel. Yeah. No brakes. It's on a hill. No airbag. And off they go. Good luck. Good luck, yeah. So I think that when it comes to parents, there are things you can do. You absolutely shouldn't try and take the phone away.

You should absolutely try and stick to the age limits and observe them. Absolutely try and be prepared to be unpopular with your children and say, no, there are certain things you can't do. Absolutely go and play some of those games and do some of those things and understand what is happening to them, right? But ultimately, what I'd say to parents is, please write to your MP right now and tell them that you

care about the online safety bill and you care about the provisions for children in that bill, because we want something to happen at a systemic level. We actually want it to have safety rules embedded by default so that we are not left with a responsibility for these huge companies that are taking over our children's lives. I mean it's just for a turn that bill, much beleaguered in some ways to Parliament last Monday. You're rolling your eyes after the delay. You've said what you want to pass off that it's obviously quite complicated. But why is it being stymied? What's the difficulty? I think there's two reasons. One is actually just the endless change of government. I mean,

I have been working on this bill since the get go. I can't remember whether I'm on my fifth or sixth Secretary of State. But every time there's someone new. Yeah. And every time the ministers, they have another look at it. They hear all the lobbying all over again and they make some changes. So some of it is just sort of, you know, a victim of what's happened in politics over the last few years. I think the other thing is that there is a sort of, you know, a body of people who constantly have said, you know, this is an affront to freedom of speech. Now, actually, they have won the day and recently the government have taken out whole swathes of the bill.

And I think that there is perhaps for another day, an argument to be had about that. But I think that the point of the bill, and why I think those people were largely wrong, not entirely wrong, largely wrong, is that it's supposed to be looking at the systems and processes. It's supposed to be looking at the way that it pushes you, pushes your behavior, pushes, you know, these loops of disordered material, recommends things to you that really you shouldn't be recommending. It's supposed to be looking at that. And somehow a lot of the debate seems to be about the content itself rather than about the power of the machine. And I think that that's been actually, to be honest, a bit of a failure of media. To communicate that difference and a little bit of laziness in politics, because it's much more easy to cry for freedom of speech than it is to say, actually, do we want Elon Musk or or Meta or so on determining what we see and determining what we feel? And actually, I would like the freedom from that.

What would you say to those who, you know, because you have changed career, you have made this your focus, who perhaps don't quite understand how serious this is as a problem? I think that the evidence is piling up. So at one level, no one who is in the courtroom at the inquest of Molly Russell can think it is non-trivial. Yeah. 1,400 pieces of material, not one of which you would want to see and not many of which she actually searched for. They were recommended. They were recommended. They were offered. If you like this, you can have that.

And I've seen it all, and it is literally, you know, gaping wrists and things too ugly to say on the radio. I also did an interview on this programme. People couldn't look it back up. The solicitor looking after the family, and she was extremely affected by what she saw as an adult. As an adult, and indeed everybody around that court case. But I think what's important about that, and in fact I have an amendment on the

bill in relation to that, but what's important is that we got transparency, a radical transparency where we first saw in court, in public, what was going on for one child. Now, that is what's going on at varying degrees for all children. And if you look today in the papers, there is a whole thing about, you know, it takes three seconds for TikTok to give you self-harm material. You know, we at Five Rights have done absolutely groundbreaking research, which shows, you know, the sort of extreme diets that children are offered 400 calories a day in a minute. You know, these sorts of things are not about what the children are doing. This is actually about what the company is promoting.

And it's that kind of ranking and promoting and recommending that that my mission is against but you sound like you believe you can do it oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah i mean it's taking i mean you know but things like the bill and and and obviously what you've talked about uh molly russell and what the coroner had said about about schoolgirl and her family, what they've presented. It's of now, isn't it? The speed is of essence. Oh, it absolutely is. And you mentioned in your introduction the age appropriate design code. That's the first standalone sort of safety by design regime for kids. It's around data. I won't explain it here.

But what I will say is that after we passed it here, they passed it in Ireland, they passed it in California, we expect it to pass all around the world over the next, you know, couple of years. And that begins to say, okay, the flaw has been risen that that made significant changes. If we can do it again, in the online safety bill, if they can do it in Europe, in the Digital Services Act, if they can do it, you know, in Australia and Canada and so on, which they are doing, then we actually start to say, do you know what? These robber barons, you know, which is what they are. They're like, you know, we've seen it before in industrialization, in the trains coming and, you know, and the coming of technologies. Yeah, it will change. it will be a regulated area and like everything else it will be imperfect and like everything else it won't be 100 safe but right now it is a travesty and so i i do want to say

it's important this bill passes it will not not do everything. And I am, myself and my colleagues in the House of Lords, are putting the government under a great deal of pressure on four or five issues that are absolutely essential in order to make it fit for purpose. We'll follow your work. And also I should say those individuals and the bosses of those big tech companies, at many times we've made overtures for people to appear on the programme. We will continue to do that, to hear from them themselves, to present the case and answer

for themselves. Baroness Kidron, thank you very much for coming on today and highlighting where we're up to and where we're not and where perhaps there's a gap. I have to say, your messages this morning have been, as ever, fulsome, brilliant. I've created all sorts of problems in people's

homes, it seems, about where loo rolls should be hanging and where they shouldn't. Another message has just come in saying, I've just gone round and changed the loo rolls in my house. The other way round to how it's meant to be, I've just learnt. What will happen? I don't know.

You'll have to keep us posted. Who knows? Some lovely messages. And I particularly like this one, as I am preparing to say goodbye to you for a little while, I hope, not forever, as if you will have time to think about any of this stuff, having a baby. If you get dressed or eat more than toast for the first three months, you're smashing it.

Massive good luck. Thank you for that message. No name on it. Catherine says, I've loved your interviews on Women's Hour from day one. Up to your programme today. My very best wishes for baby number two. I'm looking forward to hearing you again on the radio. Well, I'm looking forward to being back with you and some lovely very best wishes for baby number two and looking forward to hearing you again on the radio. Well, I'm looking forward to being back with you and some lovely other best wishes coming in.

So thank you so much for that and for many of you saying that you're having lots of discussions off the back of today and I'm not even going to bring up the message

that we've got about dishwashers. All that is left for me to say is goodbye for now. Tomorrow, my maternity leave begins. I will miss Woman's Hour,

the strong team that make this programme day in, day out. And you, of course, are listeners. Wish me luck as I face the loo roll issue down and the other irritations of domestic life. But speaking of life, I hope I have good news to share in January. Thank you so much for your company.

I won't be back tomorrow, as I usually say. But fear not, Woman's Hour will be. You know where we are. time same place and thank you again for so many messages this morning I've brought a real smile and cheer to our faces all the best and have a lovely festive period that's all for today's Women's Hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one. Dance. It entertains us and it connects us. And in my second series of Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends, I explore some more iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Join me, Ultima Busse,

as I delve into the lives of these trailblazers and pioneers who have changed the world of dance forever. The tap dancing duo who astounded audiences with their acrobatic skills. The Hollywood legend who showed her versatility across different dance styles on screen. We'll hear about it all, so let's celebrate the magic of dance together.

Subscribe to Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends on BBC Sound. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.